Meeting Title: Brainforge x Urban Stems: Renewal Discussion Date: 2025-11-18 Meeting participants: Zack Gibbs, Robert Tseng, Uttam Kumaran
WEBVTT
1 00:00:10.880 ⇒ 00:00:12.120 Zack Gibbs: Hello.
2 00:00:12.730 ⇒ 00:00:13.480 Robert Tseng: Hey, Zach.
3 00:00:14.200 ⇒ 00:00:15.079 Robert Tseng: Been a while?
4 00:00:20.970 ⇒ 00:00:21.860 Uttam Kumaran: Hey!
5 00:00:23.030 ⇒ 00:00:24.090 Zack Gibbs: Hey, how’s it going.
6 00:00:24.460 ⇒ 00:00:25.830 Uttam Kumaran: Good. How are you?
7 00:00:26.890 ⇒ 00:00:28.600 Zack Gibbs: Doing alright.
8 00:00:29.590 ⇒ 00:00:30.259 Zack Gibbs: Just watch that.
9 00:00:30.260 ⇒ 00:00:31.120 Uttam Kumaran: the latest.
10 00:00:32.610 ⇒ 00:00:38.509 Zack Gibbs: Got a monster thing out of the way that’s been in progress for a while, so,
11 00:00:38.910 ⇒ 00:00:46.370 Zack Gibbs: I’ve been trying to… heard the cats on this, and it’s… at least it’s, like, soft launch now.
12 00:00:46.500 ⇒ 00:00:47.220 Uttam Kumaran: What was it?
13 00:00:48.500 ⇒ 00:00:51.529 Zack Gibbs: It’s adding alcohol sales to the site, which…
14 00:00:52.430 ⇒ 00:00:53.150 Robert Tseng: Oh!
15 00:00:53.560 ⇒ 00:00:58.570 Zack Gibbs: Which is cool. Nobody else is doing, doing this, you know.
16 00:00:58.830 ⇒ 00:01:05.029 Zack Gibbs: In our space and, like, gifting in general, it’s a very unique use case, but it’s also…
17 00:01:05.420 ⇒ 00:01:10.690 Zack Gibbs: Very challenging from a third-party… Compliance.
18 00:01:10.800 ⇒ 00:01:14.109 Zack Gibbs: Taxes point of view, so.
19 00:01:14.690 ⇒ 00:01:21.029 Uttam Kumaran: Who was the partner that you were guys… I remember you met… we talked about this 6 months ago. Who was the partner you guys ended up choosing?
20 00:01:23.060 ⇒ 00:01:28.579 Zack Gibbs: It’s a company called Drinks, so… Oh, yeah, that’s right.com.
21 00:01:28.990 ⇒ 00:01:29.609 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
22 00:01:30.420 ⇒ 00:01:31.380 Zack Gibbs: They,
23 00:01:32.240 ⇒ 00:01:47.479 Zack Gibbs: They’re not used to supporting, like, this is a new use case, working with a merchant like us. They’re used to working with, like, grocery stores and other, like, actual wine brands to get them so they can have a e-commerce storefront.
24 00:01:47.710 ⇒ 00:01:53.740 Zack Gibbs: So… they struggled with this as well, to… as a partner, but…
25 00:01:54.240 ⇒ 00:02:10.790 Zack Gibbs: At least. Like, you can go on the site and buy individual wine, you can, you can, buy it as a bundle, like a SKU bundle, and then we’re turning on later this week the ability for add-on sales, which is the main, the main use case, so the ability to…
26 00:02:11.190 ⇒ 00:02:16.429 Zack Gibbs: turn on, and add on wine. We’re starting with just a couple SKUs, but…
27 00:02:18.660 ⇒ 00:02:22.880 Zack Gibbs: It’s kind of a nightmare of a… of a…
28 00:02:23.230 ⇒ 00:02:28.679 Zack Gibbs: And it was one of those things that you couldn’t really… you couldn’t really, like, MVP this.
29 00:02:28.680 ⇒ 00:02:30.500 Uttam Kumaran: Okay.
30 00:02:30.500 ⇒ 00:02:31.110 Zack Gibbs: all the compliance.
31 00:02:31.110 ⇒ 00:02:41.400 Robert Tseng: What do the cookie bundles do? I always tell people, oh, Levain Cookies does a partnership with Urban Stems. I mean, I live in New York, so Levain’s, like, right down the street, and I love it.
32 00:02:41.400 ⇒ 00:02:51.959 Zack Gibbs: Yeah, that… I mean, that… that partnership has kind of exceeded expectations in terms of revenue and sales, so…
33 00:02:52.590 ⇒ 00:02:53.140 Robert Tseng: Yeah.
34 00:02:56.470 ⇒ 00:02:59.620 Zack Gibbs: Well, cool. I wanted to talk about,
35 00:03:00.060 ⇒ 00:03:06.540 Zack Gibbs: you know, we’re nearing the end of our… our agreement, I think that wraps up on November 30th, and…
36 00:03:06.540 ⇒ 00:03:07.010 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
37 00:03:07.010 ⇒ 00:03:09.630 Zack Gibbs: You know, what does it look like after that point?
38 00:03:09.750 ⇒ 00:03:23.379 Zack Gibbs: from my point of view, I would very much like to see… I would like to see where the chips fall, somewhat, internally, and, you know, give Emily kind of full…
39 00:03:23.840 ⇒ 00:03:30.180 Zack Gibbs: you know, the full reins, so to speak, and see how things go for, like, a couple month period.
40 00:03:30.460 ⇒ 00:03:36.370 Zack Gibbs: You know, really to determine what our… what our best support path is internally.
41 00:03:36.820 ⇒ 00:03:39.139 Zack Gibbs: And just more on the medium term, so…
42 00:03:39.520 ⇒ 00:03:42.420 Zack Gibbs: that’s where my head’s at. I don’t know,
43 00:03:42.660 ⇒ 00:03:46.529 Zack Gibbs: you know, what you guys are thinking. So, just wanted to have an open discussion about it.
44 00:03:48.190 ⇒ 00:03:55.909 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I think I can take, sort of, the first part is… yeah, I mean, I just think there’s a lot to manage, still.
45 00:03:56.090 ⇒ 00:04:07.970 Uttam Kumaran: And I don’t just say that as, like, a consultant trying to stay on, like, there’s actually a lot of stuff that we’re still doing on a daily basis. Additionally.
46 00:04:08.080 ⇒ 00:04:10.410 Uttam Kumaran: I think a lot of the issues over the past
47 00:04:10.780 ⇒ 00:04:15.540 Uttam Kumaran: 4 to 6 weeks are actually new issues introduced by Emily.
48 00:04:15.680 ⇒ 00:04:19.440 Uttam Kumaran: Given just the pace and the scope at which you’re doing a lot of stuff.
49 00:04:19.769 ⇒ 00:04:26.350 Uttam Kumaran: Like, and so, I… it just wouldn’t be my recommendation to completely move us off.
50 00:04:26.590 ⇒ 00:04:41.129 Uttam Kumaran: I think, like, even today, there’s still job issues and things that we’re resolving because of how many changes we’re making. You know, even that itself, I think it’s a… it’s a problem with just how fast
51 00:04:41.480 ⇒ 00:04:54.029 Uttam Kumaran: she’s… she’s having to make changes, and how fast we’re having to support in, like, a pretty dynamic system. So… I don’t know, I just feel like that’s a tough decision for me to support, even just from, like, the engineering side, because of how much
52 00:04:54.150 ⇒ 00:04:55.290 Uttam Kumaran: is still…
53 00:04:55.480 ⇒ 00:05:06.679 Uttam Kumaran: like, not perfect. I think we’ve changed a lot, and there are a lot of checks in place now on how we push code and things like that, but they’re just not being followed, and…
54 00:05:06.820 ⇒ 00:05:11.109 Uttam Kumaran: We’re pushing code in, like, a very fast pace, so we’re not able to…
55 00:05:11.400 ⇒ 00:05:16.629 Uttam Kumaran: to really work under that kind of constraint. So, it’s introducing a lot of issues.
56 00:05:16.830 ⇒ 00:05:24.389 Uttam Kumaran: whether those are okay, or, like, that team can deal with that, like, that’s, I think, a debate, but, like, that’s kind of, like, where…
57 00:05:24.630 ⇒ 00:05:28.350 Uttam Kumaran: I am right now. You know…
58 00:05:28.900 ⇒ 00:05:43.269 Uttam Kumaran: Like, even her message, like, we… we have kind of a couple of different priorities right now, but even, like, we’re not able to even work on a lot of new modeling because of how much time we’re spending on just, like, dealing with issues that were introduced.
59 00:05:43.460 ⇒ 00:05:48.239 Uttam Kumaran: It just over… like, every week, basically. So, that’s…
60 00:05:48.680 ⇒ 00:05:54.039 Uttam Kumaran: That’s sort of my perspective, sort of on the ultimate, like.
61 00:05:54.840 ⇒ 00:05:56.389 Uttam Kumaran: Should we just cut things off?
62 00:05:57.590 ⇒ 00:05:58.100 Zack Gibbs: Yeah.
63 00:05:58.100 ⇒ 00:05:58.440 Uttam Kumaran: So…
64 00:05:58.440 ⇒ 00:06:10.460 Zack Gibbs: Yeah, and I’m… you know, I think from my point of view, I would… the ideal state for me is that we… we have an agreed-upon, like, hourly consulting rate with you guys.
65 00:06:10.560 ⇒ 00:06:14.509 Zack Gibbs: And if there’s… as a safety net.
66 00:06:15.000 ⇒ 00:06:22.930 Zack Gibbs: If, you know, there are items that Emily can’t handle on her own, which I expect there to be some of that to happen.
67 00:06:23.570 ⇒ 00:06:27.760 Zack Gibbs: And… So that way, there’s not, like, a full… it’s not like…
68 00:06:28.020 ⇒ 00:06:34.449 Zack Gibbs: a full cutoff. It’s, you know, there is being pulled in on an ad hoc basis, and we can talk about, like, what…
69 00:06:34.570 ⇒ 00:06:37.640 Zack Gibbs: what’s the best way to do that? You know,
70 00:06:37.890 ⇒ 00:06:41.209 Zack Gibbs: And whatever makes sense for you guys, we’re happy to conform to.
71 00:06:41.500 ⇒ 00:06:49.080 Zack Gibbs: But, you know, I do want to see… I do want to see what pops up,
72 00:06:49.350 ⇒ 00:06:51.520 Zack Gibbs: And what she’s able to handle
73 00:06:51.830 ⇒ 00:06:59.180 Zack Gibbs: What we could potentially leverage, like PK in certain scenarios, I think very limited, very limited scenarios to handle.
74 00:06:59.210 ⇒ 00:07:17.799 Zack Gibbs: And then go from there. Like, I want to be able to create a plan of, do we have the right staffing in place on our side, from a FTE perspective or not? That’s where my… that’s where my head’s at. I know Emily… Emily was… was kind of volunteered for this role by our CEO, and she was coming out of our customer care group.
75 00:07:17.800 ⇒ 00:07:27.539 Zack Gibbs: And so I knew that she was going to struggle with this assignment from the very beginning, and I didn’t know, and I told my CEO this, my boss, like.
76 00:07:27.740 ⇒ 00:07:46.149 Zack Gibbs: I don’t know if this is the right choice, and we may… we may dis… we may determine down the line that we need a different, you know, person with a different skill set that has true BI development experience, you know, multi-year, that’s more senior, to be in that seat.
77 00:07:46.600 ⇒ 00:07:52.219 Zack Gibbs: And so, that’s part of the other side of it for me, is just an understanding of
78 00:07:52.400 ⇒ 00:08:01.079 Zack Gibbs: how… how to… like I said, let the chips fall where you… I see where you’re coming from. And then go from there. And we’re ultimately not gonna have…
79 00:08:01.230 ⇒ 00:08:06.379 Zack Gibbs: you know, if I think about the rest of this, you know, really into December and into January, like.
80 00:08:06.640 ⇒ 00:08:14.120 Zack Gibbs: Our risk… our risk tolerance, like, I have a higher risk tolerance than shorter, too. Yes, I…
81 00:08:14.290 ⇒ 00:08:20.070 Zack Gibbs: than… than waiting. So, that’s why I want to see, like, where the chips fall.
82 00:08:20.070 ⇒ 00:08:20.870 Uttam Kumaran: Okay.
83 00:08:20.880 ⇒ 00:08:21.870 Zack Gibbs: Somewhat.
84 00:08:22.700 ⇒ 00:08:25.509 Uttam Kumaran: Okay. I mean, I understand that, I feel like.
85 00:08:25.930 ⇒ 00:08:39.749 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I mean, I kind of get where you’re coming from. I guess, Robert, I would love… I mean, I think one thing that we’ve been doing across a bunch of other customers, and, you know, I think, of course, like, where do you see, like, a data team actually get to when it matures is… is, like.
86 00:08:39.750 ⇒ 00:08:50.660 Uttam Kumaran: supporting, like, found opportunities, and that was sort of what I ended up sending you, a little bit on what we found with this forecasting exercise. I don’t know, Robert, you maybe want to talk a little bit about that, and… Yeah.
87 00:08:50.660 ⇒ 00:08:58.280 Robert Tseng: So, I mean, obviously, we kind of, like, pre… pre-talked before we, we came into this call, thinking that, okay, like, you know, maybe, like, the…
88 00:08:58.590 ⇒ 00:09:11.470 Robert Tseng: our attention just has to shift. Like, you kind of need to, like, trust the people internally to kind of just bear the weight of, like, the changes that we’ve made on the engineering side. But yeah, I mean, like, to recalibrate, like, we… well, I mean, we are…
89 00:09:11.620 ⇒ 00:09:26.209 Robert Tseng: ultimately, like, a data and insights company, and so, like, it’s not just the engineering work that we… we want to do, and I think there are… we know the data well enough that there are clear opportunities. We just kind of… I mean, I helped kind of tee up one project, which is
90 00:09:26.210 ⇒ 00:09:36.360 Robert Tseng: around, like, forecasting, because I was like, wow, for a company your size, if you’re kind of missing your forecast by, you know, 25, 30%, it’s pretty significant.
91 00:09:36.410 ⇒ 00:09:55.889 Robert Tseng: yeah, like, other, kind of, similarly sized brands, like, one of my main directives was to bring, forecasting to within 10% accuracy, and that has significant margin, potential. So, to me, this is, like, low-hanging fruit, especially during, kind of, the off-season, where there isn’t, like, a huge
92 00:09:56.110 ⇒ 00:10:07.669 Robert Tseng: like, we can kind of take our time to really build out, like, a driver-based forecast, as opposed to… I mean, I’ve looked through all the models, it’s really just, like, a budget allocation exercise, kind of like,
93 00:10:07.870 ⇒ 00:10:22.550 Robert Tseng: if you use YNAB or something, it’s kind of… that’s the type of forecast that you have, which is very much just, like, off estimates, very static, it’s not up… it’s not updated, unless I’m assuming somebody maybe… maybe does some manual reconciliation once a month.
94 00:10:22.760 ⇒ 00:10:26.440 Robert Tseng: Rather than somebody who’s… well, rather than having.
95 00:10:26.500 ⇒ 00:10:30.309 Uttam Kumaran: Driver-based forecasting, meaning that we’re linking, kind of.
96 00:10:30.640 ⇒ 00:10:50.449 Robert Tseng: what… the data that you do have, like traffic, conversion rates, you know, all that good ecom data that gives you good market demand signal, and kind of marrying that to, like, the operational forecast as well. So, it’s like, it’s not a light project, I think it has significant impact,
97 00:10:50.660 ⇒ 00:11:01.940 Robert Tseng: And I think that is something that we could deliver on, and it doesn’t require… I mean, it just requires maybe swapping out a couple people on our staff, but to me, like, you know.
98 00:11:01.940 ⇒ 00:11:13.240 Robert Tseng: That’s an opportunity for us to dial back on the engineering, kind of see, like, where things lie, as you said, while also being able to, yeah, like.
99 00:11:13.240 ⇒ 00:11:24.410 Robert Tseng: make a bet, be like, hey, I think this is a good opportunity, let us prove it to you. I think it can be done within a couple months. And, yeah, like, from…
100 00:11:25.140 ⇒ 00:11:44.239 Robert Tseng: like, you know, and and I think, you know, heading into, kind of, the new year, you’d be able to kind of see the returns of that. So, perhaps there are other, like, you know, I know you’re a product person, and usually this is more of, like, a kind of something that a COO would sign off on, so, like, this might not be the project that hits closest to home for you.
101 00:11:45.160 ⇒ 00:12:00.849 Robert Tseng: But, you know, I think it also kind of maybe steps into your world a bit, too. So, just wanted to get your reaction to that, and if not this one, like, you know, can we pitch a different opportunity to you that we could really try to show our analysis kind of muscle as well?
102 00:12:01.500 ⇒ 00:12:19.089 Zack Gibbs: Yeah, so on the… on the demand planning and forecasting side, the way that we do it today is insane, and it’s very rudimentary. And so… but we’ve… we’ve done it that way because of one person internally, for… who’s been there for a long… many, many years. And so…
103 00:12:19.090 ⇒ 00:12:19.740 Robert Tseng: I’ve seen the name.
104 00:12:21.060 ⇒ 00:12:22.230 Zack Gibbs: Say that again?
105 00:12:22.590 ⇒ 00:12:26.240 Robert Tseng: I think I’ve seen… I’ve seen the name in all the models, it’s all the same person.
106 00:12:26.560 ⇒ 00:12:36.199 Zack Gibbs: And so that person has been told, like, we’re not doing this. We’re not doing it this way any longer, or at least…
107 00:12:36.200 ⇒ 00:12:36.520 Robert Tseng: Okay.
108 00:12:36.520 ⇒ 00:12:43.269 Zack Gibbs: We have it on our roadmap to, to experiment with different ways of handling our forecasting as a whole.
109 00:12:43.410 ⇒ 00:12:49.030 Zack Gibbs: My assumption was that the better… the best way to go about that
110 00:12:49.030 ⇒ 00:13:05.619 Zack Gibbs: was to leverage a third… like, a tool that is a, like, AI-driven insights and forecasting tool, versus leveraging just our source data and building something custom. That was my assumption, but I don’t… I’m guessing, so…
111 00:13:05.740 ⇒ 00:13:13.630 Zack Gibbs: I know there are tools out there that kind of fit that… that general mold,
112 00:13:14.080 ⇒ 00:13:22.600 Zack Gibbs: Do you feel that a third-party tool is not superior to somebody building custom based on just our legacy data?
113 00:13:23.790 ⇒ 00:13:31.889 Robert Tseng: I think for as unique as your business is with the cycles, I don’t think a… like, a third-party tool is gonna get it right.
114 00:13:31.960 ⇒ 00:13:48.819 Robert Tseng: I think just, you know, the perishables, big, big flag, and then also kind of, like, your demand peaks, like, you know, they’re all trained on the same models that our open source people use, and I do think that what would be good is to build up a foundation internally of, like, a forecast that you manage.
115 00:13:48.820 ⇒ 00:13:52.330 Robert Tseng: then you can continue to refine it. If you realize, you know, we do this.
116 00:13:52.330 ⇒ 00:14:01.749 Robert Tseng: and then you want to use that as a baseline to kind of test other third-party tools, then, like, sure, I think you can maybe get some… some, some adjustments here and there.
117 00:14:01.750 ⇒ 00:14:07.909 Robert Tseng: But that’s, you know, you know, that’s… and that’s what I would recommend. Yeah.
118 00:14:08.110 ⇒ 00:14:10.489 Zack Gibbs: Yeah, we have a blast out.
119 00:14:10.490 ⇒ 00:14:14.740 Robert Tseng: I think there’s a good tool out there that I would vouch for and be like.
120 00:14:14.760 ⇒ 00:14:19.630 Robert Tseng: I’m not going to run pricing experience manually anymore, like, I just think that
121 00:14:19.630 ⇒ 00:14:37.440 Robert Tseng: Intelligms is, like, the way to go, so, and we… we love using that tool, partner for them, so, you know, you know, other types of work, I would definitely, you know, trust the… trust certain tools that have gone… gotten pretty far, but not… not in… not, like, demand planning and forecasting.
122 00:14:38.340 ⇒ 00:14:54.529 Zack Gibbs: Gotcha. The way that it’s set up right now is that we’re… the plan was to do evaluations of third-party tools to fit the domain planning and forecasting between Valentine’s Day and Mother’s Day, and then have a tool selection made post-Mother’s Day. So…
123 00:14:54.530 ⇒ 00:14:55.589 Robert Tseng: I see.
124 00:14:55.590 ⇒ 00:15:01.310 Zack Gibbs: With the assumption that we were going to choose a third-party tool, not build something custom ourselves, because…
125 00:15:01.570 ⇒ 00:15:11.190 Zack Gibbs: I think that the… the general feel is that we’ve built something custom ourselves, and it’s terrible. And we don’t really…
126 00:15:11.900 ⇒ 00:15:14.260 Zack Gibbs: Want to do that to ourselves again.
127 00:15:14.260 ⇒ 00:15:14.910 Uttam Kumaran: Okay.
128 00:15:14.910 ⇒ 00:15:24.840 Zack Gibbs: So, that’s why a third-party… that’s why I’ve been in my head just saying, like, okay, well, we’re just gonna find a third-party tool and customize it to fit our needs.
129 00:15:25.280 ⇒ 00:15:34.309 Zack Gibbs: And it’d be more exposed out there of, like, what decisions are being made, and why, what assumptions are being made, and why. Yeah. And, to get us…
130 00:15:34.650 ⇒ 00:15:36.430 Zack Gibbs: to get us closer. So…
131 00:15:37.290 ⇒ 00:15:45.180 Zack Gibbs: Anyway, so that has been discussed. I’ve been pushing for that because the way that we do forecasting is… is silly, and very…
132 00:15:45.670 ⇒ 00:15:49.529 Zack Gibbs: Elementary, based on just our general mid-market size.
133 00:15:50.340 ⇒ 00:15:50.900 Robert Tseng: Yeah.
134 00:15:52.020 ⇒ 00:16:06.200 Zack Gibbs: So, I mean, if we… in the evaluation process, we could… we can, you know, look at it side by side of, if we build something custom, again, like, based on our own historical data, what does that cost
135 00:16:06.320 ⇒ 00:16:14.090 Zack Gibbs: an ROI, you know, what is that proposition versus doing third-party? We haven’t done any of the third-party due diligence yet, so it’s hard to say, like.
136 00:16:14.560 ⇒ 00:16:19.629 Zack Gibbs: You know, where do we feel like there’s not a good fit for our particular product line, so…
137 00:16:21.390 ⇒ 00:16:41.099 Robert Tseng: Yeah, well, I mean, from that timeline perspective, it looks good to me. Like, we could have something to you before you’re evaluating the tools. That way you have, like… I mean, I think whatever you try right now, it will just look better than what you have, but you don’t really know, like, how to evaluate it, because you don’t really have, like, a foundational, like, forecast, really. So,
138 00:16:41.460 ⇒ 00:16:43.199 Robert Tseng: I think it’s… We have…
139 00:16:43.200 ⇒ 00:16:52.049 Zack Gibbs: We have… we have Google, we have Google Sheets, is what we have, for our forecast, which is… which is, like I said, it’s insane.
140 00:16:52.050 ⇒ 00:16:58.979 Robert Tseng: I don’t think Google Sheets are bad. I think, like, you know, I think it’s a good way to kind of iterate on things.
141 00:16:59.070 ⇒ 00:17:01.470 Zack Gibbs: But, yeah, I don’t know.
142 00:17:01.790 ⇒ 00:17:15.840 Zack Gibbs: But that has been our… that has been the way that we have been doing forecasting for, like, 5, 6 plus years, and it’s like the, you know, the version, you know, control over it, assumptions around it, only a couple people know, it’s just like…
143 00:17:16.700 ⇒ 00:17:17.380 Zack Gibbs: Okay.
144 00:17:18.069 ⇒ 00:17:19.530 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I hear you.
145 00:17:21.359 ⇒ 00:17:28.699 Zack Gibbs: Yeah. So, that’s on the… absolutely on the radar, is a… is a priority. I think we’ve just…
146 00:17:28.950 ⇒ 00:17:29.760 Zack Gibbs: you know.
147 00:17:30.420 ⇒ 00:17:45.739 Zack Gibbs: we’re assuming we’re going to go some type of, like, standard third-party route, and then customize where we need to. So, if there’s an… if there’s an alternate path there, that you guys want to be a part of the proposal process around, then I think that’s… that’s great.
148 00:17:45.880 ⇒ 00:17:53.219 Zack Gibbs: That was just not what I was thinking, so… I was just thinking, like, the scar tissue that we have internally now, we did build something custom.
149 00:17:53.390 ⇒ 00:17:58.230 Zack Gibbs: And… let’s not do that, let’s to ourselves again. Like, that’s the general sentiment internally.
150 00:18:00.590 ⇒ 00:18:06.070 Robert Tseng: Okay. Yeah, well, I’m… like I said, I think it’s… it’s, it’s… I think it’s a pretty…
151 00:18:07.360 ⇒ 00:18:09.070 Robert Tseng: It’s not… it’s not like a…
152 00:18:09.180 ⇒ 00:18:21.770 Robert Tseng: short project, but, like, I think it’s not hard to do, to… and we… yeah, I mean, I feel confident throwing… throwing our weight behind it, like, I… you know, you can… you can read through the proposal, like, we can kind of go through it.
153 00:18:21.770 ⇒ 00:18:31.709 Robert Tseng: in more detail, if you’re interested, and I think, you know, it would set you up to do a better evaluation of the tool, regardless, if you kind of accept it or not, but…
154 00:18:31.710 ⇒ 00:18:41.809 Robert Tseng: I think there are ways for us to backtest the model to show how we would have forecasted different scenarios, and basically prove that this is working and better than what you currently have.
155 00:18:41.900 ⇒ 00:18:46.330 Robert Tseng: And then, you know, that’s, you know, that’s… I… I think it’s pretty…
156 00:18:46.950 ⇒ 00:19:03.430 Robert Tseng: like, yeah, it’s… it’s pretty tried and true, like, kind of, in terms of, like, e-com forecasting. Like, I think most brands at your size have, like, a head of FP&A, or kind of, like, a strategic finance person, kind of, at some… at some point, kind of owning this.
157 00:19:04.030 ⇒ 00:19:09.039 Robert Tseng: Yeah, but that’s my… I guess that’s one opportunity.
158 00:19:09.070 ⇒ 00:19:24.209 Robert Tseng: I guess, like, pricing was another one that we… that I kind of, like, I haven’t built out a full proposal for, but I think it’s another place where, you know, being able to experiment on pricing is pretty low lift, and also has big, you know, yield… yields big returns, so…
159 00:19:24.210 ⇒ 00:19:30.290 Robert Tseng: Especially with, you know, mature product, a lot of SKUs, testing new products as well. I think, like.
160 00:19:31.030 ⇒ 00:19:36.859 Robert Tseng: Would love to also explore that, if that’s something that’s top of mind for you.
161 00:19:36.860 ⇒ 00:19:41.959 Zack Gibbs: Yeah, I mean, IntelliGreams is in place right now, on our site, and there is a number of…
162 00:19:42.170 ⇒ 00:19:56.929 Zack Gibbs: it’s a relatively new addition, and there are a number of tests that are happening there around shipping… shipping costs, I think the actual, like, SKU-level pricing is… is challenging, because of, like, how you have to…
163 00:19:56.930 ⇒ 00:20:05.589 Zack Gibbs: set that up from a, like, product variant perspective, but, there are tests that are ongoing there, and the plan is to do more and more with Intelligens, so…
164 00:20:06.890 ⇒ 00:20:07.520 Robert Tseng: Okay.
165 00:20:07.800 ⇒ 00:20:17.800 Robert Tseng: I mean, if you felt like you’re well-resourced there, I mean, we’re… if you can see us as, like, an intelligence, like, SME, like, we know how to… pretty well for clients.
166 00:20:18.300 ⇒ 00:20:24.070 Robert Tseng: Yeah, I mean, obviously, like, we’re… we’re coming up at the end of the month, and so I… I would like to pick
167 00:20:24.230 ⇒ 00:20:36.849 Robert Tseng: I mean, I would like to basically try to convince you that we… you should let us try something for, like, a couple months while we wind down the engineering stuff, and… and yeah, so I… I don’t know, kind of…
168 00:20:37.200 ⇒ 00:20:41.599 Robert Tseng: Yeah. You know, if there’s something that you’d be willing for us to try.
169 00:20:42.340 ⇒ 00:20:54.390 Zack Gibbs: Well, yeah, I think that, like I said, we have a short window to see, like… I’m gonna keep going back to the analogy of the poker, but we have a short window to see where the chips fall, and, like, that window is now.
170 00:20:54.390 ⇒ 00:21:10.219 Zack Gibbs: from December through the end of January. And so, I want that, that’s my evaluation period of, are we resourced correctly internally or not? And if the answer is we’re not, then, we gotta rectify that quickly. And so.
171 00:21:10.340 ⇒ 00:21:18.620 Zack Gibbs: that’s why I would prefer there not be a… there be some safety net, but not a… not a large one.
172 00:21:18.980 ⇒ 00:21:22.879 Zack Gibbs: to see how things go. So… That’s mine.
173 00:21:23.000 ⇒ 00:21:32.559 Zack Gibbs: You know, and then I also want to see what comes out of the woodworks internally from other, like, the other, you know, analysts, some of the other business teams, so…
174 00:21:32.710 ⇒ 00:21:39.680 Zack Gibbs: I think that you guys stepping away for a period is going to be illuminating, and I want to see what happens.
175 00:21:40.590 ⇒ 00:21:43.050 Zack Gibbs: And that’s part of my, you know.
176 00:21:43.150 ⇒ 00:21:52.760 Zack Gibbs: Where my… where my motivation is coming from, of making their… there still be a safety net for ad hoc things that are critical, but,
177 00:21:53.180 ⇒ 00:21:58.519 Zack Gibbs: I just want to say… I want to be able to track what that looks like, after this November 30th, kind of.
178 00:22:02.280 ⇒ 00:22:05.270 Robert Tseng: Yeah, I mean, I guess…
179 00:22:05.690 ⇒ 00:22:11.910 Robert Tseng: That makes sense. I think, I think we’re aligned there in terms… as far as, like, working…
180 00:22:12.060 ⇒ 00:22:30.230 Robert Tseng: I mean, the scope that I’ve kind of tossed out at you feels like it’s untouched right now, and it feels like it’s… doesn’t interrupt anything, it’s not really, like, something that somebody would jump into, so it feels like it’s, like, you know, not… like, it feels like something that could happen in parallel. I mean, I’m not, like.
181 00:22:30.650 ⇒ 00:22:46.089 Robert Tseng: if you want to wait, you can wait, that’s fine. But, like, I also feel that, like, it’s a good opportunity, especially given that your evaluation period is February. So, I mean, within… between now and then, we could easily stand this thing up, and
182 00:22:46.200 ⇒ 00:22:56.909 Robert Tseng: like, I… like, I feel confirmed that, like, that seems like it’s good timing, but I… you know, maybe you just need some… we can give you some time to kind of…
183 00:22:57.520 ⇒ 00:23:03.209 Robert Tseng: take it back with the team, and if I can share anything in more detail, that might
184 00:23:04.010 ⇒ 00:23:11.339 Robert Tseng: help in evaluating if this is actually something that, hey, like, unexpectedly could be, like, a pretty low
185 00:23:12.200 ⇒ 00:23:19.610 Robert Tseng: low-risk way for us to continue to support you, like I, you know, we would love that opportunity, so…
186 00:23:19.610 ⇒ 00:23:24.540 Zack Gibbs: Yeah. No, I get it. I think the other thing is,
187 00:23:24.640 ⇒ 00:23:27.849 Zack Gibbs: Across the board, over the last, you know.
188 00:23:27.990 ⇒ 00:23:37.850 Zack Gibbs: since… since Mother’s Day. Like, the technology team, I have been driving that… our team really hard. Like, we’ve had a shitload of things that we’ve been working on, and…
189 00:23:37.850 ⇒ 00:23:54.420 Zack Gibbs: December, people are taking time off, and I’m taking time off, like, there’s gonna be less oversight, in general, and I don’t want to kick something off new that is… doesn’t have the appropriate level of oversight, and I also want to give the overall team a little bit of a breather in December.
190 00:23:54.420 ⇒ 00:24:04.969 Zack Gibbs: As well. So I don’t want to kick off anything new, is the bottom line. We had a lot… a lot of things kicked off and done, or, like, are wrapping now, and so…
191 00:24:05.250 ⇒ 00:24:18.809 Zack Gibbs: It’s just another thing for us to worry about, and I also want a little bit of breathing room ahead of what’s going to end up happening is, you know, as soon as we get through December, the focus is changing now to supporting Valentine’s Day, which is a mad big.
192 00:24:18.810 ⇒ 00:24:20.280 Robert Tseng: Valentine’s Day. I’m a peep.
193 00:24:20.280 ⇒ 00:24:21.879 Zack Gibbs: From a peak perspective, is not.
194 00:24:22.370 ⇒ 00:24:33.670 Zack Gibbs: I think internally, we make more of a big deal of it out of it than it should be, but, there’s a lot of volume in, like, a couple-day period, but that’s not dramatic. Mother’s Day is the big one, though, so…
195 00:24:36.070 ⇒ 00:24:55.719 Zack Gibbs: I think December is a natural time to have a small breather before kicking off other things that will, you know, we’ll have tactical stuff that is being worked on, and focus areas alongside strategic initiatives, alongside, you know, the peak support as well. It’s going to be coming up in the… for V-Day and Mother’s Day.
196 00:24:57.440 ⇒ 00:25:03.100 Robert Tseng: Sure, yeah, I mean, yeah, feels familiar. I mean, last year, we kind of held off before…
197 00:25:03.280 ⇒ 00:25:09.539 Robert Tseng: some of these, like, kind of seasonal things, so I, I think that’s, that’s fine. It’s fine with us, totally understand.
198 00:25:09.680 ⇒ 00:25:11.630 Robert Tseng: Yeah.
199 00:25:12.960 ⇒ 00:25:14.650 Zack Gibbs: Okay, so… so yeah, I think…
200 00:25:14.650 ⇒ 00:25:24.549 Uttam Kumaran: Zach, what we’ll do is probably later this week or next week, get you, like, what could be, like, a light ad hoc, like, retainer, and then, like, what would it be look like for support? You can tell us…
201 00:25:25.340 ⇒ 00:25:31.829 Uttam Kumaran: basically, like, yeah, that maximum amount that you want us to do, and then we’ll… we’ll work with you. I think get where you’re coming from, so…
202 00:25:32.190 ⇒ 00:25:48.100 Uttam Kumaran: And then, yeah, I think, like, we… that forecasting piece, I think, still lives. I may also… I did some research on shipping, I may just note down some thoughts there, just so you have some of those artifacts. So if they do come up, I think as a guide, that… especially that forecasting doc has a lot of, like.
203 00:25:48.640 ⇒ 00:26:07.320 Uttam Kumaran: the narrative around, like, what exists right now. That, so… but I get the… the whole team’s nervousness with doing this manually, but it’s not much of a forecast that exists now anyway, so… I, but I think, again, if, like, if you guys are going through an evaluation, it’s worth considering this, so… yeah.
204 00:26:08.010 ⇒ 00:26:08.550 Zack Gibbs: Yep.
205 00:26:09.170 ⇒ 00:26:09.730 Uttam Kumaran: Okay.
206 00:26:09.980 ⇒ 00:26:17.240 Zack Gibbs: Gotcha. Okay. And then, so if we… if we do a… if we do a,
207 00:26:17.910 ⇒ 00:26:32.379 Zack Gibbs: So I guess where I was thinking is that it would be, like, time materials. So it would be, like, an hour… well, whatever we use, we have a set hourly rate. I don’t know if that’s what you guys typically do or not for this type of thing. But who, I guess.
208 00:26:32.400 ⇒ 00:26:42.050 Zack Gibbs: So question number one is, you know, send back a proposal on what that looks like. What is your typical thing? I was hoping for time materials based on just usage. And then…
209 00:26:43.200 ⇒ 00:26:52.099 Zack Gibbs: And then who would be supporting us? Would it be Demolade as the main point person, or somebody else? I think that’s the other open question.
210 00:26:53.020 ⇒ 00:27:00.779 Uttam Kumaran: Okay, perfect. Yeah, the only piece there is, like, we just… we’ll try to do… if we do, sort of, time materials retainer, we just try to have some minimums.
211 00:27:00.820 ⇒ 00:27:18.200 Uttam Kumaran: that way we just… so that’s probably what I’ll… I’ll put in front of you. And so, yeah. And then I’ll make sure that we have one person, and again, what we’ll basically do is we’ll have redundancy. So right now, it’s me, Awash, and Demolade, and really it’s for redundancy as people are out, so I’ll give you both the names of people.
212 00:27:18.320 ⇒ 00:27:20.769 Uttam Kumaran: And yeah, we can go from there.
213 00:27:21.490 ⇒ 00:27:22.080 Zack Gibbs: Okay.
214 00:27:22.610 ⇒ 00:27:23.410 Zack Gibbs: Gotcha.
215 00:27:25.810 ⇒ 00:27:34.439 Zack Gibbs: Yeah. My expectation, just so we’re all on the same page, is that my expectation is that we’re gonna need some support in the new year. And so…
216 00:27:34.610 ⇒ 00:27:51.549 Zack Gibbs: what that looks like, I don’t know yet, but I want… I want that, you know, that couple months period to kind of have a better sense of what’s come out of the woodworks, you know, what are the… the cross-functional teams saying or needing and not getting, potentially.
217 00:27:51.740 ⇒ 00:28:00.479 Zack Gibbs: and, you know, prep for the holiday period, there’s prep there that needs to happen in advance, too. And so, I think that we will…
218 00:28:01.070 ⇒ 00:28:13.120 Zack Gibbs: it’s very likely that we’ll get, you know, back under some agreement in 2026, but like I said, I just wanna… we need to do an internal evaluation. We haven’t had the ability to do that yet.
219 00:28:13.630 ⇒ 00:28:15.969 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I just think, kind of, like, what we’ve
220 00:28:16.030 ⇒ 00:28:33.830 Uttam Kumaran: where our business is going and what we’re trying to do with a lot of clients, especially now that we’ve spent so much time and we have a really good understanding of the internals, is to try to go after opportunity for found revenue. And so, that way, it’s not purely just, like, looking at us, just like, oh, they’re just keeping the lights on, but going after those opportunities. So.
221 00:28:33.900 ⇒ 00:28:52.419 Uttam Kumaran: that’s where our business is heading, and that’s where we’ve had the most success with clients turning our work into just, like, oh, they’re just building dbt models, like, oh, they’re actually going after areas where we haven’t had expertise or the time, you know? So, if anything coming in the new year, like, that’s the type of stuff that, of course, we can do all the…
222 00:28:52.880 ⇒ 00:28:58.280 Uttam Kumaran: The normal data stuff we’re doing, but that’s the stuff that we’d love a shot at, so… Yeah, nope.
223 00:28:58.400 ⇒ 00:29:00.049 Zack Gibbs: Okay. Yeah, makes sense.
224 00:29:00.760 ⇒ 00:29:06.300 Uttam Kumaran: Perfect. Okay. Alright, so I’ll shoot that over, and then, yeah, if we don’t chat between…
225 00:29:06.660 ⇒ 00:29:08.879 Uttam Kumaran: Now and then, Happy Thanksgiving, and…
226 00:29:08.880 ⇒ 00:29:09.560 Zack Gibbs: Yep.
227 00:29:09.770 ⇒ 00:29:10.310 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
228 00:29:10.310 ⇒ 00:29:18.510 Zack Gibbs: I’m out… I’m out next week. I’m in… I’m in Chicago visiting family, so, I’m here through the end of this week, but I will be out, all of the week.
229 00:29:18.510 ⇒ 00:29:20.460 Uttam Kumaran: So I’ll get… I’ll get something this week.
230 00:29:21.210 ⇒ 00:29:21.780 Zack Gibbs: Okay.
231 00:29:22.220 ⇒ 00:29:24.109 Zack Gibbs: Alright, sounds good. Thanks, guys.
232 00:29:24.110 ⇒ 00:29:25.170 Uttam Kumaran: Perfect. Thank you.
233 00:29:25.220 ⇒ 00:29:25.930 Robert Tseng: Exactly.
234 00:29:26.250 ⇒ 00:29:26.890 Uttam Kumaran: Talk to you soon.
235 00:29:26.890 ⇒ 00:29:27.400 Zack Gibbs: DM.