Meeting Title: Brainforge x John Wessel M&A Discussion Date: 2026-04-29 Meeting participants: Robert Tseng, John Wessel
WEBVTT
1 00:02:25.520 ⇒ 00:02:26.710 Robert Tseng: Hey, John.
2 00:02:26.710 ⇒ 00:02:28.499 John Wessel: Hey, how’s it going?
3 00:02:29.010 ⇒ 00:02:29.830 Robert Tseng: Morning.
4 00:02:30.140 ⇒ 00:02:31.419 Robert Tseng: Good, how are you?
5 00:02:32.130 ⇒ 00:02:33.889 John Wessel: God, just trying to find that…
6 00:02:34.260 ⇒ 00:02:37.509 John Wessel: open conference room here, but I think I found one.
7 00:02:37.510 ⇒ 00:02:38.380 Robert Tseng: Sure.
8 00:02:39.920 ⇒ 00:02:41.460 John Wessel: You really work.
9 00:02:41.850 ⇒ 00:02:44.489 Robert Tseng: I’m in, I’m in Cambridge, or, like, Boston.
10 00:02:44.850 ⇒ 00:02:46.530 John Wessel: Yeah, nice, okay. Yeah.
11 00:02:47.240 ⇒ 00:02:48.130 Robert Tseng: And yourself?
12 00:02:48.880 ⇒ 00:02:59.190 John Wessel: Yeah, I’m, so I’m in Greenville, South Carolina. Okay. Just… I don’t know if you’ve been to the area, it’s kind of, like, between Atlanta and Charlotte. It’s, like, right in between.
13 00:02:59.700 ⇒ 00:03:08.319 Robert Tseng: I have not. I’ve been meaning to go out there. One of my good friends… actually, I don’t know how close this is, but he, he, he’s doing, like, residency in Wake Forest.
14 00:03:08.320 ⇒ 00:03:11.670 John Wessel: Oh, Wake, yeah, Wake’s, I don’t know, few, yeah, a few hours north.
15 00:03:11.670 ⇒ 00:03:15.280 Robert Tseng: A few hours north, okay. So, I do have plans to go out there soon.
16 00:03:15.430 ⇒ 00:03:18.060 John Wessel: Okay, nice, yeah, it’s a… it’s a beautiful area.
17 00:03:18.230 ⇒ 00:03:19.669 Robert Tseng: Yeah, and you’re…
18 00:03:19.670 ⇒ 00:03:20.060 John Wessel: Cool.
19 00:03:20.060 ⇒ 00:03:24.060 Robert Tseng: Do you guys have an office, or are you working out of WeWork, or kind of… what’s your work situation like?
20 00:03:24.060 ⇒ 00:03:26.430 John Wessel: Yeah. Yeah, we have a,
21 00:03:26.900 ⇒ 00:03:29.280 John Wessel: That’s cool. There’s a local,
22 00:03:30.380 ⇒ 00:03:38.010 John Wessel: School… it, like, used to be a code school, it’s kind of evolving into an educational institution, and they have,
23 00:03:38.620 ⇒ 00:03:42.720 John Wessel: like, what is it called? Not internship, but
24 00:03:43.110 ⇒ 00:03:45.110 John Wessel: Like a work co-op, like a co-op program.
25 00:03:45.110 ⇒ 00:03:45.840 Robert Tseng: Co-op, co-op.
26 00:03:45.840 ⇒ 00:03:56.940 John Wessel: Yeah, yeah, so it’s… it’s, it’s cool. So they’ve got, they’ve got this, space with, like, offices and… and, like, co-work space, kind of like WeWork, but co-work space, and then the, like, kids that are part of the…
27 00:03:57.190 ⇒ 00:04:04.569 John Wessel: the programmer kind of ended up some, too. So, yeah, so we’re over here, got some offices over here, and it’s been great.
28 00:04:05.090 ⇒ 00:04:07.759 Robert Tseng: That’s awesome. It’s great that they have a space like that. I feel like.
29 00:04:08.160 ⇒ 00:04:10.440 Robert Tseng: I haven’t really heard… heard of something like that before.
30 00:04:10.860 ⇒ 00:04:18.019 John Wessel: Yeah, like, you know, kind of back in the day, like, all the code schools popped up, and you had all these online programs, like, they’re… Yeah.
31 00:04:18.029 ⇒ 00:04:22.510 Robert Tseng: I’m sure a lot of it was shut down, but, like, you know, to kind of transform into something else.
32 00:04:22.510 ⇒ 00:04:22.970 John Wessel: Yes, that’s.
33 00:04:22.970 ⇒ 00:04:24.710 Robert Tseng: Like, I’m very multi-purpose, and…
34 00:04:25.040 ⇒ 00:04:25.740 John Wessel: Yeah.
35 00:04:25.740 ⇒ 00:04:26.770 Robert Tseng: Seems like a good part.
36 00:04:26.770 ⇒ 00:04:39.050 John Wessel: They have some online students, but they’re, they’re, like, fully accredited now as a university, and they’re… and they’re having some, like, in-person programs, and they’re working really close with, like, local employers.
37 00:04:39.160 ⇒ 00:04:52.110 John Wessel: Awesome. To get kids to be able to work as part of the schooling, which is, you know, I mean, at least when I was in school, like, I had some internships, but it wasn’t really part of the program, so it’s really neat, like, they’re doing some cool stuff.
38 00:04:52.490 ⇒ 00:04:56.679 Robert Tseng: Yeah, do they work… do you take, students or interns, like, from that.
39 00:04:57.650 ⇒ 00:05:02.849 John Wessel: I’m gonna have some of the summer as the plan, so it’ll be my first summer.
40 00:05:02.850 ⇒ 00:05:03.210 Robert Tseng: Cool.
41 00:05:03.210 ⇒ 00:05:04.830 John Wessel: Yeah, so we’ll see how it goes.
42 00:05:05.170 ⇒ 00:05:05.860 Robert Tseng: Yeah.
43 00:05:07.230 ⇒ 00:05:14.230 Robert Tseng: Yeah, well, I mean, appreciate you kind of jumping on this call. I know I kind of… we connected briefly, sent you a message, so just to kind of, like,
44 00:05:14.290 ⇒ 00:05:31.140 Robert Tseng: regroup a bit, yeah, you know, I think it was interesting timing for when you talked to us, like, we’re at a place now where, as part of, like, a growth strategy, we’re trying to kind of partner with other, consulting consultancies, so…
45 00:05:31.140 ⇒ 00:05:39.430 Robert Tseng: I mean, frankly, there’s, like, a list of 100 that we’ve been kind of going through, and then, you know, basically looking for people, firms that are, like.
46 00:05:39.620 ⇒ 00:06:03.910 Robert Tseng: 10 or under people, headcount have been around, have been in business for about 3 years, or at least 3 years. And, yeah, I mean, I think just the signals that we’re looking for are people that, like, really have expertise, have, like, made some kind of, like, entry into the market, and then, like, you know, if they have some sort of differentiation in a way that we’re not, like, super equipped to have, yeah, I mean, I think, you know, we’re exploring, kind of, like.
47 00:06:03.910 ⇒ 00:06:17.930 Robert Tseng: M&A as a growth strategy. So, you know, obviously, like, there’s a lot of context to kind of… before we even get to that point. On this call, I just would love to learn a little bit more about your business, kind of, like, you know, what your goals are for the business, and…
48 00:06:17.930 ⇒ 00:06:22.810 Robert Tseng: Yeah, just to even see if this is something worth kind of pursuing, or we just kind of…
49 00:06:23.000 ⇒ 00:06:25.289 Robert Tseng: Talk about it more like a partnership, you know, by the end.
50 00:06:25.290 ⇒ 00:06:25.630 John Wessel: Yeah.
51 00:06:25.630 ⇒ 00:06:26.140 Robert Tseng: person.
52 00:06:26.480 ⇒ 00:06:27.360 John Wessel: Yeah, sure.
53 00:06:27.760 ⇒ 00:06:29.650 John Wessel: Yeah, and, yeah, and I’m just…
54 00:06:29.940 ⇒ 00:06:46.469 John Wessel: not, like, coming into it with any kind of expectations, like, I… you know, I… I don’t know, just… I think it’s always, like, helpful to… The mental exercise is always helpful, like, because it helps focus you, and, like, do I want to pursue this, like, what, you know, what would be valuable?
55 00:06:46.560 ⇒ 00:06:56.190 John Wessel: As far as, like, when you’re building. But, yeah, so, yeah, about… about three… technically started about three and a half years ago, went full-time about three years ago.
56 00:06:56.190 ⇒ 00:07:03.450 Robert Tseng: Oh, and by the way, are you okay? I realize that, like, by default, my Zoom, records meetings. I can go off record… do you mind, or do you want me.
57 00:07:03.450 ⇒ 00:07:09.279 John Wessel: No, yeah, yeah, no, that’s fine, yeah, we’ll move it on. Okay, cool. Yeah. Yes, about three and a half years ago.
58 00:07:09.470 ⇒ 00:07:16.059 John Wessel: started working on IDEA, did some part-time stuff, left my full-time job about 3 years… 3 years ago in May, I think, so…
59 00:07:16.060 ⇒ 00:07:16.420 Robert Tseng: Nice.
60 00:07:16.420 ⇒ 00:07:25.780 John Wessel: 29th, so coming up. Yeah. Yeah, so just, like, just under 10 people, couple contractors, it was, like, five, I guess we got, like, 5 full-time.
61 00:07:27.310 ⇒ 00:07:36.869 John Wessel: Right now, and the… the thing I launched, kind of, launched out of was I was chief technology officer of an e-commerce company.
62 00:07:37.080 ⇒ 00:07:50.110 John Wessel: And the thing I think we did really well is the… the data piece. And I had a background, like, I was a DBA, like, back in a past life. I worked in business intelligence, I presented data.
63 00:07:50.380 ⇒ 00:07:58.809 John Wessel: as part of a, like, a solutions team in the transportation space for a while. So I’ve done a bunch of different data roles. I was an analyst.
64 00:07:58.810 ⇒ 00:07:59.160 Robert Tseng: firsthand.
65 00:07:59.160 ⇒ 00:08:02.849 John Wessel: Samsung, like, when I first started my career. So, just a bunch of different, like.
66 00:08:02.970 ⇒ 00:08:06.260 John Wessel: Client-facing, like, hardcore backend, like.
67 00:08:06.440 ⇒ 00:08:18.279 John Wessel: wake up at 2AM because the physical servers are down, and, like, go troubleshoot Linux boxes, like, I did that, like, so I… Wow. Like, I had a really nice, like, span of experiences, in data.
68 00:08:18.490 ⇒ 00:08:22.619 John Wessel: Like, good appreciation for the back end, and then same thing, like, sit in, like.
69 00:08:22.710 ⇒ 00:08:33.750 John Wessel: meetings with, you know, directors and executives at Michelin and, like, present their, like, their transportation spend and, like, analyze it for them. So, like, I had a really nice span of, like, all the things data.
70 00:08:33.750 ⇒ 00:08:43.850 John Wessel: So I went into this e-commerce company, CTO, like, a very data-heavy perspective, which a lot of CTOs come either from dev or infrastructure, so it’s, like, a little bit of a different perspective.
71 00:08:43.850 ⇒ 00:08:44.210 Robert Tseng: Totally.
72 00:08:44.210 ⇒ 00:08:50.619 John Wessel: So… Yeah, like, that was an awesome experience. We got on Shopify early.
73 00:08:50.720 ⇒ 00:08:57.780 John Wessel: Because this was almost… almost… almost 10 years ago, I guess. Got on Shopify early, which was a good decision.
74 00:08:57.960 ⇒ 00:09:02.920 John Wessel: And probably 3 key things that we did really well…
75 00:09:03.050 ⇒ 00:09:20.269 John Wessel: One is I found, like, a really strong paid advertising agency that was data-driven and cared about modeling and data, as opposed to just, like, clicking the buttons. That took a bunch of iterations to get there, because most… most, like, paid agencies are, like.
76 00:09:20.370 ⇒ 00:09:22.310 John Wessel: You know, just running things on autopilot.
77 00:09:22.310 ⇒ 00:09:22.710 Robert Tseng: Oh, yeah.
78 00:09:23.050 ⇒ 00:09:30.379 John Wessel: You know. So that was a key thing, and we did a ton of data modeling and collection.
79 00:09:30.570 ⇒ 00:09:32.360 John Wessel: of data,
80 00:09:32.550 ⇒ 00:09:38.760 John Wessel: to feed them data to make their models good, and we’re able to really scale paid advertising. So that was crucial.
81 00:09:39.040 ⇒ 00:09:49.200 John Wessel: We spent a ton of time on pricing and competitive pricing. We were a distributor, so some things we… we were literally selling the exact same thing as somebody else.
82 00:09:49.200 ⇒ 00:10:00.140 John Wessel: And we also had, like, white-labeled stuff, where we, like, differentiated based off features or whatever. So that was interesting and complex, like, you have to, like, position, are you the distributor? Are you white-labeled?
83 00:10:00.250 ⇒ 00:10:16.509 John Wessel: Or are you, actually a manufacturer? We manufacture our own stuff, too. So that was a really complicated pricing thing. Again, like, this is pre-AI, so spent a bunch of time scraping pricing, analyzing pricing, and applying pricing strategies to…
84 00:10:16.720 ⇒ 00:10:21.989 John Wessel: I think we had… 30,000 products. Yeah. By the end of it.
85 00:10:22.230 ⇒ 00:10:27.300 John Wessel: And then the fourth thing was, inventory optimization. Partnered with an awesome team.
86 00:10:27.520 ⇒ 00:10:43.359 John Wessel: That, again, like, we’re able to collect and optimize, or collect and get all the data to this team, called Hydrian. They’re great. It’s, like, the Boston Consulting Group guy, and then, like, a guy out of, actually, another guy, I think he’s a… he’s a Boston area guy.
87 00:10:43.480 ⇒ 00:11:00.440 John Wessel: He’s not in Boston anymore. Anyways, like, they did all the algorithmic work, and we did a bunch of, like, engineering work to get them the data. Yeah, so that was… that was kind of the context. All in Snowflake were also, like, a really early Snowflake user, early, dbt user for modeling.
88 00:11:00.750 ⇒ 00:11:02.510 John Wessel: So we did a lot of that work.
89 00:11:02.820 ⇒ 00:11:22.140 John Wessel: There, and then I was like, alright, like, I wanted to be done, like, wanted to do my own thing. I was like, what should I do? I was like, alright, well, I think this is the most valuable piece that I did, and then since then, like, last three years, like, we’ve done a ton of work with Snowflake, done a data modeling work, a lot of engineering work, people that want,
90 00:11:22.490 ⇒ 00:11:27.480 John Wessel: Pipelines and their own infrastructure, connections to, like, weird custom systems.
91 00:11:27.730 ⇒ 00:11:31.599 John Wessel: Build… build their own, like, their own,
92 00:11:32.160 ⇒ 00:11:48.530 John Wessel: We’re doing an interesting project right now where somebody’s processing billions of records every day to, build custom audiences. So they have, source data from credit bureaus, and they compile custom audiences and work with large customers to…
93 00:11:48.640 ⇒ 00:11:54.379 John Wessel: to use that for targeted direct mail advertising. So, kind of niche, but, like, pretty interesting.
94 00:11:54.610 ⇒ 00:12:01.030 John Wessel: Yeah, so that’s kind of… kind of the background. Like, we’re pretty data engineering focused.
95 00:12:01.180 ⇒ 00:12:06.009 John Wessel: I’ve got a little bit of data science talent that we bring in for things,
96 00:12:06.140 ⇒ 00:12:07.650 John Wessel: And then I have an analytic.
97 00:12:08.090 ⇒ 00:12:13.769 John Wessel: Yeah, basically one… one… one main person, like, that does analyst stuff, but most of the team’s more data engineering.
98 00:12:13.770 ⇒ 00:12:15.639 Robert Tseng: Right, I think I met him at the last call, yeah.
99 00:12:15.640 ⇒ 00:12:19.310 John Wessel: Noah, yeah, yeah. Or DG, I don’t remember who was on the call.
100 00:12:19.410 ⇒ 00:12:29.460 John Wessel: Yeah, yeah, DG, and then I have a… I guess, like, DJ’s kind of like a flex, like, almost like an analytics engineer, so he does a little of both, and then Noah, like, I brought on to do just analytics, but yeah.
101 00:12:30.270 ⇒ 00:12:31.790 John Wessel: So that’s kind of the deal.
102 00:12:32.340 ⇒ 00:12:41.579 Robert Tseng: Nice, yeah, I mean, thanks for the, kind of, walk through your background. I mean, you’ve clearly worked full stack, you know, I think that makes sense why you ended up going to…
103 00:12:41.580 ⇒ 00:12:41.960 John Wessel: Yeah.
104 00:12:41.960 ⇒ 00:13:00.529 Robert Tseng: consulting, very untraditional… I mean, I think anybody who goes to data consulting ends up having, you know, some interesting, kind of, like, you know, a lot of side quests on their journey that have just given you a lot of, kind of, just domain, knowledge so that you feel like you can go out and strike it out on your own, right? So, yeah.
105 00:13:00.950 ⇒ 00:13:12.900 Robert Tseng: That’s great. And I mean, I think your technical ceiling is way higher than mine. I think maybe Uten would be more of a peer of yours in that sense, and kind of being able to engineer those experiences. I mean, I’ll share a little bit about myself.
106 00:13:12.900 ⇒ 00:13:14.189 John Wessel: Yeah, please do, yeah, I was gonna ask.
107 00:13:14.190 ⇒ 00:13:18.649 Robert Tseng: Yeah, so my last in-house role is leading data for Ruggable. They were an e-com.
108 00:13:18.650 ⇒ 00:13:19.000 John Wessel: Cool.
109 00:13:19.000 ⇒ 00:13:19.370 Robert Tseng: Right?
110 00:13:19.370 ⇒ 00:13:19.980 John Wessel: Incredible, yeah.
111 00:13:19.980 ⇒ 00:13:20.840 Robert Tseng: some… some.
112 00:13:20.840 ⇒ 00:13:21.610 John Wessel: They’re awesome, yeah.
113 00:13:21.710 ⇒ 00:13:25.800 Robert Tseng: Started my career in SaaS, logistics SaaS at Flexport, and then.
114 00:13:25.800 ⇒ 00:13:26.370 John Wessel: Oh, no.
115 00:13:26.370 ⇒ 00:13:28.550 Robert Tseng: Like, hopped around a couple different startups.
116 00:13:28.550 ⇒ 00:13:28.990 John Wessel: So I…
117 00:13:28.990 ⇒ 00:13:29.380 Robert Tseng: I work for.
118 00:13:29.380 ⇒ 00:13:35.059 John Wessel: the company that got rolled into Uber Freight, so it was Transplace, and they got rolled into Uber Freight, yeah, it’s crazy.
119 00:13:35.060 ⇒ 00:13:36.130 Robert Tseng: I’ll see.
120 00:13:36.320 ⇒ 00:13:36.950 John Wessel: Yep.
121 00:13:36.950 ⇒ 00:13:41.590 Robert Tseng: Oh, that’s funny. Yeah, so I feel like there’s some parallels in terms of, like, the stops that we’ve made on our journey.
122 00:13:41.590 ⇒ 00:13:42.150 John Wessel: Yeah.
123 00:13:43.190 ⇒ 00:14:08.189 Robert Tseng: But yeah, I mean, kind of because I… I mean, for me, I was… I was a business background, so I started off more as kind of, like, yeah, client-facing account manager at Flexport, then kind of started making my way into data. You know, eventually, like, at Ruggable, I was leading data and insights, so not engineering, like, I had a head of engineering counterpart, but just working with mostly product and marketing teams, and kind of helping them use the data to
124 00:14:08.500 ⇒ 00:14:13.810 Robert Tseng: Kind of launch new product lines, kind of opportunity size, just, you know.
125 00:14:13.810 ⇒ 00:14:32.090 Robert Tseng: product improvements, yeah, but doing a lot more downstream analysis than probably, like, what you were doing. So, when eventually, when I struck out on my own, I started off focused on just growth and product analytics, and just kind of freelancing, from Rance. Started in the CPG space, because that was my most.
126 00:14:32.090 ⇒ 00:14:32.580 John Wessel: Yep.
127 00:14:32.580 ⇒ 00:14:39.350 Robert Tseng: relevant experience. Along the way, met Clint when I married my wife, moved to New York, and he introduced me to Uber.
128 00:14:39.350 ⇒ 00:14:57.159 Robert Tseng: Yeah, so we ended up sharing a couple clients, worked together for about 6 months, and we’re like, hey, you know, we have complementary skill sets, why don’t we bring it under one house? Like, I think the deals we do are bigger, and, like, we can really offer a full-stack off… make a full-stack offering. So, we’ve been kind of running this thing together for…
129 00:14:57.160 ⇒ 00:15:00.420 Robert Tseng: I mean, a little under 2 years, so…
130 00:15:00.420 ⇒ 00:15:00.900 John Wessel: That’s awesome.
131 00:15:00.900 ⇒ 00:15:04.749 Robert Tseng: It’s just… it’s grown significantly. We’re about 25 people now.
132 00:15:04.750 ⇒ 00:15:05.250 John Wessel: Awesome.
133 00:15:05.250 ⇒ 00:15:17.729 Robert Tseng: And, yeah, I mean, I think kind of the… the journey is, like, you know, this isn’t a lifestyle business for us, like, we think that there’s an end, and, you know, when we got together, and we’re like, hey, I think…
134 00:15:17.730 ⇒ 00:15:42.259 Robert Tseng: within 4 to 5 years. This was 2 years ago, we’re like, we think we’re gonna… we’re trying to work towards an exit. I think that timeline has accelerated. I think that, you know, that could come within 2 years now. And you just, in terms of the growth that we’ve been experiencing, is, you know, way more than we thought it would be. I think AI has really accelerated that. And so I’m really interested. I mean, I kind of do all the commercial stuff for the business, in terms of business development.
135 00:15:42.360 ⇒ 00:15:56.259 Robert Tseng: partnerships, kind of figuring out, like, where the direction of the business is heading in. And then Utam is more of the technical architect and kind of visionary for, like, kind of what we’re… what we’re building, kind of, internally to kind of help… help steer us there.
136 00:15:56.260 ⇒ 00:16:05.279 Robert Tseng: So, yeah, I mean, that’s kind of… that’s kind of where we’re at, and so, you know, I… I mean, that’s… yeah, that’s… that’s my feel. Nice.
137 00:16:05.350 ⇒ 00:16:07.560 John Wessel: Yeah, and so if you’re doing an M&A, like, I assume…
138 00:16:07.560 ⇒ 00:16:08.210 Robert Tseng: Yeah.
139 00:16:08.210 ⇒ 00:16:12.299 John Wessel: Like, you guys have… have some investors, or, like, what… what’s kind of your thought?
140 00:16:12.850 ⇒ 00:16:26.349 Robert Tseng: Yeah, so I think there’s a few different options, like, I mean, things I would want to know, like, you know, we don’t have to… you don’t have to discuss today, but I mean, we’re pretty transparent. I’m curious to know, kind of, what your top line is, and also, like,
141 00:16:26.450 ⇒ 00:16:39.249 Robert Tseng: you know, better understand, like, lightly, like, kind of the structure of your business. Are you, like, the main account owner? Like, so… I think… so top line, kind of, like, founder dependency, and also,
142 00:16:39.250 ⇒ 00:16:52.200 Robert Tseng: just kind of, like, your… your… the partnerships, or kind of partnerships or verticals, expertise, like, those are the three things that impact your valuation. And as far as, like, how we structure, how we’re exploring structuring deals,
143 00:16:52.200 ⇒ 00:17:07.140 Robert Tseng: you know, I think the easiest way, would just be to kind of do, like, a… we identify something that’s like, hey, this is a gap for us, this is something you’re strong at, let’s do a trial online account, we can see, like, I’ll tell you what value we feel it can bring, and then…
144 00:17:07.140 ⇒ 00:17:07.480 John Wessel: Yeah.
145 00:17:07.480 ⇒ 00:17:17.639 Robert Tseng: you know, I mean, from my perspective, it’s like, I think we might do something a little bit more broader than what you do, and so I think the value… the initial, like, idea I had coming in was, like.
146 00:17:17.640 ⇒ 00:17:42.440 Robert Tseng: hey, we find an account that John has in a vertical that we’re not super strong in, or he’s in a part… he’s, like, kind of partnered with one of these platforms that we’re not in, but what we can do is we can help grow that account. And, either by, like, kind of… with our staff to kind of complement your services, or frankly, it might even just be me kind of working with you, and from an account management perspective, like, telling you, hey, look, I think you’re leaving money on the table within a month or two months to try to, like, kind of give you
147 00:17:42.440 ⇒ 00:18:06.580 Robert Tseng: give you an idea of how to increase that deal size. And so, hopefully that kind of, you know, gives you the… catches, you know, you see, like, hey, you know, like, that’s the value that we can bring, and, you know, if we were to absorb your book, we would try to figure out, like, a way within 6 months to a year to kind of, like, make that transition happen, and then, you know, pay you out, either entirely from your book, or we’re just passing you all the
148 00:18:07.070 ⇒ 00:18:21.420 Robert Tseng: the revenue, whatever the number ends up being, until… and if you want to exit, or if you, you know, want to stay on and on this ride, then, you know, we can… we can, like, work other kind of pieces into that package as, like, you know, you come on.
149 00:18:21.420 ⇒ 00:18:46.399 Robert Tseng: you know, frankly, we’re building out this, like, class of, like, GMs, I guess, in our business, who are really leading different service lines, and so I could share a bit more about… about that. It seems like data engineering would be your thing, and I mean, we’re… that is a… that is a gap that we are trying to… to fill. So, like, yeah, I think there’s… there’s a lot of different options, but just to kind of give you some ideas of, like, how I’ve been handling some of these in early conversations.
150 00:18:46.620 ⇒ 00:18:47.420 Robert Tseng: Yeah.
151 00:18:47.420 ⇒ 00:18:48.350 John Wessel: Yeah, cool.
152 00:18:48.690 ⇒ 00:18:53.559 John Wessel: Yeah, I mean, I think for us to, like, maybe answer a couple of those questions,
153 00:18:53.680 ⇒ 00:18:55.120 John Wessel: Like, the next…
154 00:18:55.390 ⇒ 00:19:11.219 John Wessel: So I’m currently working with a recruiter for a chief of staff, so that’s, like, kind of the next hire for me. Yeah. And focus… and obviously, like, in a startup, like, that’s a super generic role, but, like, that role will be, like, focused specifically on
155 00:19:11.360 ⇒ 00:19:12.349 John Wessel: Like, client relations…
156 00:19:12.350 ⇒ 00:19:14.469 Robert Tseng: higher, by the way. We’ve tried Sahara as well.
157 00:19:14.470 ⇒ 00:19:14.990 John Wessel: For sure.
158 00:19:14.990 ⇒ 00:19:18.400 Robert Tseng: I’m curious what you… I think. Yeah.
159 00:19:18.400 ⇒ 00:19:27.960 John Wessel: Yeah, and I’ve got two… I’ve got two strategies around it, like, one of which… yeah, anyways. So yeah, so basically…
160 00:19:28.140 ⇒ 00:19:39.099 John Wessel: client, like, client-facing, like, project management, like, delivery. It’s almost like a delivery manager, really. Totally. But… but it’s… there’s gonna be other things mixed in, so… a little chief of staff.
161 00:19:39.190 ⇒ 00:19:54.260 John Wessel: Yeah, so that’s, like, the next hire, to get me, like, less involved in some pieces, and then, and then after that, like, having… having an architect would probably be the next thing. So our, our, like, plan delivery model is, like, I have a, like.
162 00:19:54.360 ⇒ 00:19:56.780 John Wessel: Good stable of, like, technical, like.
163 00:19:56.910 ⇒ 00:19:59.089 John Wessel: Delivery people to, like, do the work.
164 00:19:59.230 ⇒ 00:20:04.929 John Wessel: I’m building up that, like, second layer of, like, delivery ownership.
165 00:20:05.150 ⇒ 00:20:24.010 John Wessel: Which, like, this stupid sapphire, and then I have one other person that, like, is pretty good with delivery, but is getting sucked into, like, technical stuff that I think I can kind of elevate into that. And then I’d be doing a lot of architect work, and then my next step would be, like, when we’re, like, ready to bring in an architect, and, like, actually, I think that would be…
166 00:20:24.290 ⇒ 00:20:33.000 John Wessel: be kind of the model. So I’d be curious, like, how you guys are approaching that. Would that be a similar model to how you guys approach it, or do you approach it a little bit differently? Yeah.
167 00:20:33.360 ⇒ 00:20:54.080 Robert Tseng: Yeah, I mean, I guess everyone’s on kind of, you know, different tracks, but, like, I feel like we kind of hit a similar point like that when we had to get me and Utam out of the business more. Our delivery structure is kind of… we have, yeah, I mean, kind of similar. We call them client success owners and service leads, and so the service leads are our solutions architects.
168 00:20:54.080 ⇒ 00:20:54.650 John Wessel: Oh, okay.
169 00:20:54.650 ⇒ 00:20:58.930 Robert Tseng: functionally, and then the CSOs are our account managers, kind of.
170 00:20:58.930 ⇒ 00:21:00.150 John Wessel: Okay, yeah, yeah.
171 00:21:00.150 ⇒ 00:21:17.760 Robert Tseng: These are both… yeah, for us, we don’t hire… we don’t have a PMO, so we actually have… we’ve built out a lot of internal tooling. We, yeah, just, like, that we’ve, we believe that the AI, tools that we’ve built internally kind of have… have pretty much, like, automated most of the PM… PM workforce.
172 00:21:18.260 ⇒ 00:21:43.099 Robert Tseng: And so what we’re challenging is, like, these tech… these senior technical folks that want to be on either of these tracks, they each have to kind of do a share of, like, what traditional PM work would be, but that’s probably no more than, like, 20% of their time. But then… and then the rest… and then… and then, you know, they’re all… they’re all involved on… on client work. But, yeah, so there’s, like, different… we have, like, mid-level and senior level for these different tracks.
173 00:21:43.100 ⇒ 00:21:46.770 Robert Tseng: And, yeah, so there’s, like, there’s… there’s a… there’s a group of…
174 00:21:46.770 ⇒ 00:21:57.680 Robert Tseng: there’s a class of, you know, about, you know, 8… 8 people that we’ve kind of, like, elevated to that… to that kind of, you know, CSO or SL kind of track. But yeah, I mean, I understand the kind of…
175 00:21:57.680 ⇒ 00:21:58.030 John Wessel: Yeah.
176 00:21:58.030 ⇒ 00:22:22.990 Robert Tseng: what you’re trying to build to your delivery structure. And so, like, to me, it’s like, yeah, I mean, if we were to work together, you know, I think you would benefit from, you know, us having already, like, built out platform, like, tooling to help, and also kind of team structure. And so I’d, you know, I think I’d be curious, like, you know, in a world where, you know, you could… you got to choose, like, what you would do, like, do you want to be more of an architect, or do you want to be more client… client-facing?
177 00:22:24.640 ⇒ 00:22:32.550 John Wessel: Yeah, yeah, I mean, that’s the question, isn’t it? Yeah. Because, like, if I wanna,
178 00:22:33.070 ⇒ 00:22:49.380 John Wessel: if I want to focus on architecting, then… then that, like, is kind of a different piece. Because if I’m going to be client-facing, like, I might as well spend my time selling and, like, keep growing my business, to be honest. Yeah. And if I want to focus more on the architecture piece, then, like.
179 00:22:49.560 ⇒ 00:22:54.509 John Wessel: then that might not make as much sense, because I… because I don’t believe, and I think you’d agree with this, like.
180 00:22:54.630 ⇒ 00:23:05.610 John Wessel: I’m… I’m for sure at a spot where, if I keep doing the… in the structure that I’m doing, like, it’s founder-led, like, sales. Like, it doesn’t make sense to bring in salespeople at this point. Yeah.
181 00:23:05.920 ⇒ 00:23:10.739 John Wessel: So, yeah, so that’s… that’s kind of the… honestly, like, that’s kind of the juncture. It’s like, I either, like.
182 00:23:10.740 ⇒ 00:23:11.220 Robert Tseng: Yep.
183 00:23:11.220 ⇒ 00:23:15.290 John Wessel: do what I’m doing, and do founder-led sales, and, like, that’s what I do.
184 00:23:15.290 ⇒ 00:23:15.700 Robert Tseng: Yeah.
185 00:23:15.700 ⇒ 00:23:22.339 John Wessel: And, and then, and then again, backfill these, like, whatever, whatever I call them, like, delivery people versus, like.
186 00:23:22.500 ⇒ 00:23:39.810 John Wessel: architecture versus technical, and maybe I can… versus, like, people actually doing the work, and maybe I can combine a couple of those because of AI, to your point. But, like, some division there, and then do founder-led sales. Or, I’m like, I just really like the architecture piece, like, I don’t want to do the sales thing, and then, like, yeah, I think it would make a ton of sense to, like.
187 00:23:40.020 ⇒ 00:23:40.850 John Wessel: So…
188 00:23:40.960 ⇒ 00:23:46.000 John Wessel: you know, move forward with a conversation like this, so… So, yeah, some of that’s on me to figure out, and…
189 00:23:46.000 ⇒ 00:23:46.320 Robert Tseng: Yeah.
190 00:23:46.690 ⇒ 00:23:49.939 John Wessel: And regardless, I’m gonna… I’m gonna be looking for this,
191 00:23:50.260 ⇒ 00:23:57.639 John Wessel: Chief of staff, or maybe I just turn it into, like, a delivery, like, client delivery, client services, account management role, like, I don’t know. We’ll see.
192 00:23:57.750 ⇒ 00:24:01.169 John Wessel: But yeah, so I think that’s kind of the step for me.
193 00:24:01.340 ⇒ 00:24:09.349 John Wessel: is in the next month, I’m planning to fill that role, and, like, if it goes well, and then I, like, lean into the sales piece, and, like, that’s for me, like, that works.
194 00:24:09.500 ⇒ 00:24:19.249 John Wessel: I like it, then I’ll probably keep doing that. If I do that, and fill it, and, like, spend some reps, like, doing it, and be like, this is the worst, like, I don’t want to do this, then I think that would be a great… a great time to…
195 00:24:19.450 ⇒ 00:24:34.890 John Wessel: to reconnect, and and then, yeah, and then I’ll just be at a point where I’m like, alright, like, I think I want to do, you know… I want to do the architecture piece, you know, I like that better, I like the more technical piece better, and I think that would be a good point to… to kind of connect over.
196 00:24:35.530 ⇒ 00:24:53.190 Robert Tseng: Okay. Yeah, I mean, that’s definitely the architecture… I mean, I think I agree with what you’re saying. I mean, I would also kind of put that I think there is a world where, yeah, let’s say you do enjoy kind of being client-facing, you want to sell, then, like, you know, for our most senior CSO, like, he… I mean, he basically is, like, comp… he’s…
197 00:24:53.210 ⇒ 00:24:55.990 Robert Tseng: he’s basically caught like a salesperson here. Like, he’s.
198 00:24:55.990 ⇒ 00:24:56.500 John Wessel: Yeah.
199 00:24:56.990 ⇒ 00:25:12.489 Robert Tseng: he’s just… he’s selling with us, and yeah, I mean, he gets kind of all the revenue that he brings in, on top… I mean, obviously, he has to run… he has to also have this team that’s, like, deploying the work, but he… he takes… he takes 10% off the top as well.
200 00:25:12.490 ⇒ 00:25:12.960 John Wessel: Okay.
201 00:25:12.960 ⇒ 00:25:37.899 Robert Tseng: And, yeah, like, that to him, you know, is how he wanted to kind of continue to grow, and, yeah, I think there, there, there is a world where you could also, you could also do that, you know? So, especially because, like, you know, if you have deep snowflake roots, you know, it seems like you’ve obviously been in this route for a while, like, you have this reputation. So I do feel like, even just talking to you, I think you’re a better talker than most of the folks I talk about.
202 00:25:37.900 ⇒ 00:25:38.460 Robert Tseng: I guess so.
203 00:25:38.460 ⇒ 00:25:39.210 John Wessel: Appreciate that.
204 00:25:40.210 ⇒ 00:25:53.950 Robert Tseng: Yeah, it’s no surprise why you’re able to lead your founder sales… founder-led sales kind of motion right now. Yeah, I feel like, you know, you’d probably do well in that as well, if you just had more time to just focus on selling, doing the account mapping.
205 00:25:53.950 ⇒ 00:25:54.290 John Wessel: that.
206 00:25:54.290 ⇒ 00:25:59.579 Robert Tseng: You know, the staff that we could put around you would be, like, somebody who’s, like, a partnerships manager, who’s just helping.
207 00:25:59.580 ⇒ 00:26:00.200 John Wessel: you.
208 00:26:00.200 ⇒ 00:26:01.169 Robert Tseng: Kind of, like.
209 00:26:01.350 ⇒ 00:26:25.310 Robert Tseng: you know, work the deals with the reps, but, like, once, like, a live deal comes to the table, you have to close it, like, you’d obviously be involved there, because you can build trust easily with the client, you can demonstrate your expertise, and they trust you to kind of design the solution. So, like, I think that, you know, that totally is an option as well. I think, to me, it’s the question is, like, kind of what your timeline is, you know?
210 00:26:25.310 ⇒ 00:26:31.530 Robert Tseng: Do you… if you… if you feel like… I mean, I guess, like, do you have a… do you have an exit in mind, or, like, kind of… how long were you thinking.
211 00:26:31.530 ⇒ 00:26:32.010 John Wessel: Yeah.
212 00:26:32.010 ⇒ 00:26:34.140 Robert Tseng: this journey, and yeah.
213 00:26:34.140 ⇒ 00:26:50.330 John Wessel: Yeah, I mean, well, to answer your, like, sales question, I’m happy to share, like, top line number. I feel like we have pretty good margins, and, we’re, like, run rate for this year is around a million top line, and that’s, like, some pretty significant growth, like, if I keep doing it, like, we can keep growing it.
214 00:26:51.290 ⇒ 00:27:00.819 John Wessel: 20, 20, 30%. I’ve beat… I’ve beat that, like, obviously, like, early on, like, growth metrics are kind of silly, like, going from 500 to a million, like, it’s not like…
215 00:27:00.820 ⇒ 00:27:02.380 Robert Tseng: The deal could totally double your business, you know?
216 00:27:02.380 ⇒ 00:27:03.900 John Wessel: Yeah, exactly, right, right, right, yeah.
217 00:27:03.900 ⇒ 00:27:04.500 Robert Tseng: So yeah.
218 00:27:04.500 ⇒ 00:27:13.130 John Wessel: Yeah, so we’re about, like, the cool part is it is, like, like, once we’re, like, hit that million and, like, go a little… little above that, like, it… and… and we have a, like, a…
219 00:27:13.340 ⇒ 00:27:14.600 John Wessel: a decent…
220 00:27:14.760 ⇒ 00:27:29.679 John Wessel: We’re not… our client base is, like, kind of 8 to 10, so we’re not gonna, like, get crushed if we lose. Like, it still hurts, like, if you lose somebody, like, when you’re… when you’re our size, but, like, it’s not… Yeah. …devastating. It’s not like we have one deal that’s, like, that’s, like, half our business or something.
221 00:27:29.680 ⇒ 00:27:38.889 John Wessel: So yeah, so that’s cool, like, it really is stabilizing, like, getting up, like, around that million dollar run rate, and then, like, enough distribution, like, across clients where it’s not, like.
222 00:27:38.890 ⇒ 00:27:41.850 John Wessel: one client’s gonna crush the business, so that’s been great.
223 00:27:41.850 ⇒ 00:27:51.579 John Wessel: But yeah, obviously, like, personally, like, essentially being, like, me, managing a bunch, like, a few full-times and, like, some contractors is a lot. I don’t have a co-founder.
224 00:27:51.600 ⇒ 00:27:56.770 John Wessel: And, like, it’s a lot. So, yeah, so that’s… that’s kind of the piece I’m in, and like I said.
225 00:27:56.960 ⇒ 00:27:58.390 John Wessel: I, I am gonna…
226 00:27:58.760 ⇒ 00:28:05.219 John Wessel: gonna, kind of execute on this… this role, and see if I… like you said, it’s really hard to find somebody good in that Chief of Staff role, like.
227 00:28:05.220 ⇒ 00:28:05.620 Robert Tseng: Yeah.
228 00:28:05.620 ⇒ 00:28:21.709 John Wessel: if I… if I… if I try it and find… and find somebody I think is good that’s not bad and doesn’t work out, or if I just, like, can’t find somebody good, like, that would be, like, again, another… another point, like, inflection point of, like, alright, like, what’s the plan? So yeah, so that’s my next step, is, like, I am
229 00:28:21.920 ⇒ 00:28:34.870 John Wessel: I feel like, you know, owe it to myself to try it, gotten this far, and then, yeah, and then I think kind of evaluate after… after a couple months here of, like, like, alright, like, how’s it going? Like.
230 00:28:34.920 ⇒ 00:28:45.399 John Wessel: again, do I want to do founder-led? Like, one, can I get out? Can I create enough space with the new hire to do founder-led sales, and then two, like, do I want to do it? Yeah. So, yeah.
231 00:28:45.880 ⇒ 00:28:46.610 Robert Tseng: Okay.
232 00:28:46.940 ⇒ 00:28:53.050 Robert Tseng: Yeah, no, I mean, I think, thanks for… so, I mean, I think you’re… I think you… you did… you’re doing… doing great. I think,
233 00:28:53.090 ⇒ 00:29:08.689 Robert Tseng: like, my… like, when Tom and I merged, we were… we were each, like, you know, about 500 each, so we’re running smaller, like, kind of three… three to five contractors each. Merged about a million, and we’re doing… we’re doing about… we’re gonna probably hit 4 million this year, and .
234 00:29:08.690 ⇒ 00:29:09.120 John Wessel: Yeah.
235 00:29:09.120 ⇒ 00:29:09.760 Robert Tseng: Yeah, I mean.
236 00:29:09.760 ⇒ 00:29:20.149 John Wessel: And that’s a cool story, right? Because that’s when mergers make sense. It’s like, hey, we think we can do about this separately, and then we merge and we can do, like, double. I mean, that’s when it makes sense, right? Because everybody wins. Yeah.
237 00:29:20.160 ⇒ 00:29:21.179 Robert Tseng: Yeah, so I…
238 00:29:21.180 ⇒ 00:29:21.600 John Wessel: Really neat.
239 00:29:21.600 ⇒ 00:29:32.760 Robert Tseng: I mean, I think, yeah, if… I think that that’s, that’s even why, yeah, totally. So, I, yeah, as far as, like, totally understand you want to try, kind of, like.
240 00:29:32.950 ⇒ 00:29:36.190 Robert Tseng: Yeah, you feel like this is your next step to try to get yourself out of…
241 00:29:36.200 ⇒ 00:29:45.729 Robert Tseng: create more leverage and see, you know, if you have that space, like, what… which direction would you go? What we can do to help, I don’t… you know, we’ve hired for that person before, so I think…
242 00:29:45.730 ⇒ 00:30:05.710 Robert Tseng: I don’t… if you… if you want, like, happy to… I have a recruiter and head of a trip person. She’s happy to help, kind of, like, source people if you have a JD that you want. I’m happy to… happy to tell her to, like, hey, send some candidates, to… to John, just to, like, kind of give you some… some folks to talk to. And also, if you want to try to, like.
243 00:30:05.710 ⇒ 00:30:28.630 Robert Tseng: see if, like, one of our delivery people, one of my… what I consider to be a CSO in our org would be a good fit. I’m happy to kind of talk about, like, hey, like, maybe we do a rotation, just, like, get this person under John, and, just see. You know, I think that would be a great trial for us, because, like, I would love to see kind of how you work with somebody on our team, and, you know, if you’re like, hey, this… this sucks, like.
244 00:30:28.630 ⇒ 00:30:29.749 Robert Tseng: Right, right, right.
245 00:30:29.750 ⇒ 00:30:37.850 Robert Tseng: doesn’t even make sense anyway. So, I think those are a couple, like, you know, ideas that came up from what you’re sharing that I felt like we could actually help with. Yeah.
246 00:30:37.850 ⇒ 00:30:48.980 John Wessel: Yeah, so as far as your team, of, like, the 20 people, and I think I understand the rough structure, and obviously, like, we interacted over in Xpanel and stuff, are you guys, like.
247 00:30:49.110 ⇒ 00:31:08.850 John Wessel: do you lean toward, like, that, like, marketing… marketing sales analytics, like, that GTM analytics space? Like, how… what’s your distribution right now? So if I… so they do come across deals, because we’re lighter on the analyst thing. Like, I did, like, after DG and I met, I did find an analyst that’s, like, that’s been a really good fit, and that’s, like.
248 00:31:08.850 ⇒ 00:31:09.370 Robert Tseng: break.
249 00:31:09.370 ⇒ 00:31:16.030 John Wessel: kind of… kind of bailed that one out. But… but that’s, like, a little bit of a stretch for us.
250 00:31:16.260 ⇒ 00:31:31.500 John Wessel: like, again, we’re, like, way more focused around the data engineering piece, so my perception is you guys have more resources in that world, but I just wanted to know, like, maybe the lay of the land as far as, like, skill set and, yeah, how did that distribution looks in your company.
251 00:31:31.680 ⇒ 00:31:47.469 Robert Tseng: Yeah, yeah, and I’ll shoot you a deck as well, to kind of give you a little bit more, like, kind of, like, mapping of, like, our service lines, who leads what, or whatever. But yeah, I mean, I think, like, industry-wise, like, half our business is healthcare and CPG right now. And then the other half
252 00:31:47.470 ⇒ 00:31:53.370 Robert Tseng: We’re actually moving, like, we’ve kind of deprioritized, like, startup SaaS, to be honest, so…
253 00:31:53.370 ⇒ 00:31:53.860 John Wessel: Yes.
254 00:31:53.860 ⇒ 00:31:56.309 Robert Tseng: Just a little bit unstable, and… Yeah.
255 00:31:56.310 ⇒ 00:31:58.019 John Wessel: I’m kind of tired of it, so I…
256 00:31:58.020 ⇒ 00:32:22.390 Robert Tseng: Yeah, so yeah, I think services. So, we work with legal firms, we have government agencies, you know, nonprofit, like, you know, I think, I think that… there’s no vertical specialization yet, but I, you know, I am trying to focus more on, like, service-based businesses. So I think that is, you know, that’s from that angle. As far as, like, our expertise and how that’s distributed.
257 00:32:22.390 ⇒ 00:32:34.239 Robert Tseng: Yeah, there’s, like, there’s a… there’s a few service lines. One we… and it kind of falls all under the umbrella of, like, I call Brainforge is the firm that helps organizations, like, build the organizational brain. We’re a context engineer.
258 00:32:35.050 ⇒ 00:32:44.880 Robert Tseng: And so, in that, there is a data engineering line, and we have, like, a senior person who’s leading that, but, you know, I think I’d be open to kind of looking for somebody to even go above him.
259 00:32:44.880 ⇒ 00:33:00.459 Robert Tseng: Then there’s, like, somebody who’s leading, kind of, what’s traditionally known as product analytics, or in the marketing world, they don’t call it product analytics, they call it something else, it’s just growth analytics. Yeah, and then we have, you know, analytics engineering, so that’s just more like, kind of.
260 00:33:00.460 ⇒ 00:33:08.909 Robert Tseng: you know, straight, like, dbt, semantic modeling, into business intelligence. And then we have a data strategy piece, which is a little bit more agnostic.
261 00:33:08.910 ⇒ 00:33:31.049 Robert Tseng: if we just do purely governance projects, like, setting up Snowflake, big organization, big enterprise organization, doing, like, really the traditional, like, you know, BCG style, like, digital transformation type of work, that, like, ends up kind of feeding these other service lines so that we can actually do the implementation. So, those are really, like, the four pillars of the business currently.
262 00:33:31.050 ⇒ 00:33:50.410 Robert Tseng: And yeah, I think that’s how we are able to kind of grow our accounts. Yeah, I mean, average, average, average deal size is about 150 grand, so, like, I think, like, in, in the, yeah, I think we’re… that’s gonna continue, continue to go up. But yeah, it’s usually, like, if there’s a mix of a few, yeah.
263 00:33:50.410 ⇒ 00:33:52.469 John Wessel: Yeah, are you doing more,
264 00:33:53.180 ⇒ 00:34:01.770 John Wessel: As you said deals, a lot of… a lot of our stuff is fractional, so I don’t know how much stuff you do that’s, like, fractional, like, more ongoing versus, like, deals.
265 00:34:01.770 ⇒ 00:34:02.090 Robert Tseng: Yeah.
266 00:34:02.090 ⇒ 00:34:03.569 John Wessel: interesting to talk about.
267 00:34:03.940 ⇒ 00:34:12.229 Robert Tseng: Yeah, there are, there’s, like, probably 25% of our business is, like, fractional, just ongoing retainer kind of work.
268 00:34:12.239 ⇒ 00:34:12.899 John Wessel: Nice.
269 00:34:13.190 ⇒ 00:34:21.279 Robert Tseng: Yeah, but I do think that that typically hits, like, a revenue cap. Like, I do prefer the, kind of, like, 3-6 month engagements, where we go in and just, like.
270 00:34:21.280 ⇒ 00:34:21.670 John Wessel: Yeah.
271 00:34:21.670 ⇒ 00:34:30.070 Robert Tseng: Like, lift and shift, and then, you know, some of it moves to retainer, but we only choose to keep on retainer the clients that we really enjoy working with, because…
272 00:34:30.070 ⇒ 00:34:30.710 John Wessel: Yeah.
273 00:34:30.719 ⇒ 00:34:40.429 Robert Tseng: Yeah, we don’t really want to just stay in, like, maintenance, because I don’t really feel like it helps, like, expand our team’s skill set, doesn’t really help us to kind of, like, learn new things either, yeah.
274 00:34:40.429 ⇒ 00:34:48.559 John Wessel: Oh yeah, I’ve had to fire some retainer clients, like, I get it. Yeah, yeah. But, yeah, because all, like, majority of ours is a retainer.
275 00:34:48.779 ⇒ 00:34:55.329 John Wessel: Retainer or Retainer Plus? Like, we’re… It’s great, yeah. Obviously. Yeah, like, it’s, it’s nice, like…
276 00:34:56.029 ⇒ 00:35:02.999 John Wessel: No, actually, every… all of the revenue is retainer right now, actually. I don’t have any open projects. I have a couple, like, in the pipeline, but…
277 00:35:03.109 ⇒ 00:35:13.209 John Wessel: Yeah, so… so that, yeah, it is great, but… and… and I have, because I have fired, like, a couple, like, like, most of them…
278 00:35:13.519 ⇒ 00:35:26.659 John Wessel: Most of them I would hire again. Most of them. So, that is good, and I like that piece of the business, and being able to grow it that way, but… but there is absolutely, like, a cap.
279 00:35:26.929 ⇒ 00:35:38.059 John Wessel: Of, you know, like, you’re gonna get compared to their internal people and, like, what they pay them, and, like, they’re willing to pay, like, a little bit of a, like, burden on top of it, but, like, there’s a cap.
280 00:35:38.269 ⇒ 00:35:42.109 John Wessel: Yeah. So, yeah, that’s for sure a challenge.
281 00:35:42.490 ⇒ 00:35:46.869 Robert Tseng: Yeah, yeah, and I think that’s why, like, if you can, like, kind of cross…
282 00:35:47.130 ⇒ 00:35:53.730 Robert Tseng: cross, domains a bit, and, like, you know, share… they’re not trying to, like, put you in the headcount kind of, like, category.
283 00:35:53.730 ⇒ 00:35:54.130 John Wessel: Yeah.
284 00:35:54.130 ⇒ 00:36:06.509 Robert Tseng: then, like, I think you unlock more budget, because then you can tap into IT budgets, you can tap into, right. Yeah, you want to, yeah, you want to get away from just, like, kind of, you know, filling seats, right?
285 00:36:06.510 ⇒ 00:36:09.380 John Wessel: Yeah, and the best, the best way so far has been, like.
286 00:36:09.590 ⇒ 00:36:13.910 John Wessel: The fractional piece, and be like, alright, for that fraction, you get…
287 00:36:14.070 ⇒ 00:36:28.959 John Wessel: data science, data engineering, and analytics engineering, like, for you to, like, find those 3 people, like, it’s hard, expensive, and, like, that commands a little bit of a… of a premium, but… but yeah. Like, I… I don’t like it. Like, the weakness of my business is…
288 00:36:29.160 ⇒ 00:36:46.739 John Wessel: the pipeline, because, like, I haven’t, like, it’s been strictly referrals, and then a bunch of, like, long-term retainers, essentially. Yeah. Which is nice, like, for, like, a lifestyle business, like, that’s sick, like, I could optimize for that, it’d be fine. But I don’t know, I don’t want to do that. Like, I’d rather, like, you know, keep growing.
289 00:36:46.740 ⇒ 00:36:53.170 John Wessel: Yeah, so that’s cool. Like, that is definitely the next step for me, is, like, the pipeline and figure out how to, like.
290 00:36:54.030 ⇒ 00:37:01.120 John Wessel: Focus on, yeah, like you said, the 3-6 month pieces, and do some digital… do some transformations, or do some initial, like.
291 00:37:01.460 ⇒ 00:37:06.320 John Wessel: high-value projects. I know we’re over time, like, I had one other question, but I want to.
292 00:37:06.320 ⇒ 00:37:08.650 Robert Tseng: Yeah, please, no, I’m good, I can go a little over.
293 00:37:08.650 ⇒ 00:37:11.670 John Wessel: So, like, our… like, our next…
294 00:37:11.780 ⇒ 00:37:31.420 John Wessel: So the piece that I struggle with the most, like, if I just wanted to optimize this business for money, like, I’d just get super deep on Microsoft stack, and I could sell it all day and out-deliver, like, everybody, because, like, it sucks. Like, you know what I mean? Like, it sucks in that, like, no, like, people that are really talented… I’m super opinionated with this, sorry if you guys do a lot of this, but, like.
295 00:37:31.420 ⇒ 00:37:31.819 Robert Tseng: No, no.
296 00:37:31.820 ⇒ 00:37:39.449 John Wessel: Talent, like, the talent… the talent is not, like, Power BI people. Like, to get really talented people on that is, like…
297 00:37:39.920 ⇒ 00:37:42.880 John Wessel: Like, people, like, that are really talented don’t want to work with it.
298 00:37:43.100 ⇒ 00:37:43.969 John Wessel: Not from my experience.
299 00:37:44.090 ⇒ 00:37:44.970 John Wessel: So…
300 00:37:45.090 ⇒ 00:37:53.769 John Wessel: like, I know from a business side, like, man, I gotta optimize around that, like, everybody in the world has Power BI, like, most people, like, really screwed up, they don’t know what they’re doing, so… but I don’t want to do that, because it’s the worst.
301 00:37:53.890 ⇒ 00:37:57.570 John Wessel: But, like, taking a step back from that.
302 00:37:57.610 ⇒ 00:38:08.670 John Wessel: And the delivery layer is, like, really time-consuming. Like, we did some early projects around, like, dashboards and, like, people wanting to, like, detail stuff into Google Spreadsheets and stuff.
303 00:38:08.680 ⇒ 00:38:19.709 John Wessel: And the data engineering stuff, like, we can do quickly, and it was, like, not easy, but, like, the delivery was clear. And then you spend, like, forever on, like, getting their spreadsheets and dashboards right, and, like.
304 00:38:19.710 ⇒ 00:38:20.370 Robert Tseng: Yeah.
305 00:38:20.520 ⇒ 00:38:30.179 John Wessel: it’s… and either, like, they’re spending a bunch of money on ours, or, like, you’re eating cost, because it’s taking too long. Yeah. So…
306 00:38:30.410 ⇒ 00:38:32.699 John Wessel: That’s just a really practical problem for the business.
307 00:38:32.920 ⇒ 00:38:33.240 Robert Tseng: Yeah.
308 00:38:33.240 ⇒ 00:38:44.479 John Wessel: I’m… we’re… we’re… I’m currently selling clients, on, like, managed agents to be that layer. Yep. Versus, like.
309 00:38:44.760 ⇒ 00:38:54.860 John Wessel: any BI tools, like, whatsoever. And, like, you still need something, like, you probably still want, like, most executives still seem to want, like, some kind of dashboard. I don’t want to go, like, fully agentic, but…
310 00:38:55.100 ⇒ 00:39:08.529 John Wessel: I think that’ll be really interesting. We’re investing pretty deeply in the Anthropic system, and just, like, gonna go with their managed agent offering. It’s, like, easy to sell. I feel good about, like, their uptime sucks, but other than that, like.
311 00:39:08.920 ⇒ 00:39:16.219 John Wessel: the design, and the motion, and, like, Claude could be in the heart of it, like, that’s pretty much what we’re gonna do. So I just didn’t know, like, if you had…
312 00:39:16.350 ⇒ 00:39:23.370 John Wessel: thoughts on that, like, that… but that’s kind of where we’re going, and I have, like, a number of clients interested in that as, like, a delivery layer piece.
313 00:39:23.620 ⇒ 00:39:29.770 Robert Tseng: Sure. So you guys are in the Anthropic partner network now, and you’re also kind of selling, kind of, their managed agents as a service?
314 00:39:30.260 ⇒ 00:39:39.110 John Wessel: Right, yeah. So I, like, I mean, we’re early, like, we have, like, several clients that are, like, just starting out on, on, like, what that would look like.
315 00:39:39.220 ⇒ 00:39:50.920 John Wessel: In Slack, right? So it’s literally, like, the things in Slack, it can connect to Snowflake and run queries, and these are people that, like, don’t know how to write SQL. Like, that’s all it is. Okay. But it’s early.
316 00:39:51.320 ⇒ 00:40:14.619 Robert Tseng: Yeah, no, I mean, I think, I see that as the future as well. I do think, you’re not gonna get away from all… I mean, I think there’s, like, really three kind of surfaces to consume data, and there’s… people still want the spreadsheets. I think that’s, like, finance isn’t gonna get away from that. They’re gonna want… whether it’s Excel, Sigma, or whatever it is, like, Power BI, they’re gonna need something like that. They’re gonna want the visualization layer, and so, I mean, I don’t think.
317 00:40:14.620 ⇒ 00:40:15.270 John Wessel: Yep.
318 00:40:15.270 ⇒ 00:40:18.649 Robert Tseng: I think we’re a partner of Omni, so,
319 00:40:18.650 ⇒ 00:40:20.380 John Wessel: Oh yeah, Omni’s sick, yeah, it’s cool.
320 00:40:20.380 ⇒ 00:40:31.440 Robert Tseng: we like it, you know, clean-looking UI, similar to Looker, I mean, built by the Looker guys, and then also, yeah, I mean, they’re really kind of just focused on the semantic layer, which I think is really kind of, like, what is.
321 00:40:31.440 ⇒ 00:40:31.810 John Wessel: Merit.
322 00:40:31.810 ⇒ 00:40:39.360 Robert Tseng: going to be able to… once… I think you can pluck that out of Omni, and your MCP works, you can basically run… run Omni out of.
323 00:40:39.970 ⇒ 00:40:40.320 John Wessel: Yeah.
324 00:40:40.320 ⇒ 00:40:40.790 Robert Tseng: like Snowflake.
325 00:40:40.790 ⇒ 00:40:41.920 John Wessel: or OpenAI, or whatever.
326 00:40:41.920 ⇒ 00:40:42.620 Robert Tseng: or whatever.
327 00:40:42.620 ⇒ 00:40:43.679 John Wessel: Cortex, yeah.
328 00:40:43.680 ⇒ 00:41:01.320 Robert Tseng: And then… and the third one, and the third part is just the… is the agentic stuff that you’re doing. So, I do think it’s important at this stage to be covering all three. We do cover all three right now. I think it’s great that you’re kind of betting on Anthropic and just kind of going there. I think, yeah, getting away from just, like, editing dashboards and Power BI is, like, definitely.
329 00:41:01.320 ⇒ 00:41:08.499 John Wessel: I mean, we did, you know, I’ve done an embarrassing number of, like, iterations prior to this, and, like…
330 00:41:08.830 ⇒ 00:41:13.220 John Wessel: People that had… A lot of people that had, like, like, for example,
331 00:41:14.000 ⇒ 00:41:18.830 John Wessel: Oh, it’s UC Berkeley Labs. Who are those guys? Called.
332 00:41:19.230 ⇒ 00:41:29.779 John Wessel: it’s… I’ll think of it. Anyways, like, they basically, like, were early, like, figuring out sandboxes and code harness and memory and, like, all that stuff, and a platform, and it was, like, super cool.
333 00:41:29.790 ⇒ 00:41:37.620 John Wessel: But, like, it’s a startup, and it’s buggy, and, like, it’s not SOC 2, so I can’t use it on any major… like, you know what I mean? Like, there’s all these, like, little edge cases.
334 00:41:37.620 ⇒ 00:41:51.570 John Wessel: Where… and then it’s like, alright, and then I waited a couple months, and, like, one of the, you know, Anthropic, like, obviously one of the frontier models is, like, doing the same thing. So, we’ve just kind of landed on, like, yeah, like, it is, like, you can’t fully optimize for cost if you’re gonna use their stuff.
335 00:41:51.570 ⇒ 00:41:52.430 John Wessel: But, like.
336 00:41:52.430 ⇒ 00:42:03.130 John Wessel: just charge more, it’s fine. Is where I landed. But yeah, so that’s… that’s a piece, and… and we’re particularly interested, I’m talking to some fractional CFOs right now.
337 00:42:03.390 ⇒ 00:42:12.729 John Wessel: Because, like, accountants love spreadsheets. There is this agentic piece where, like, if they can just, like, query a database and get it in a spreadsheet, like.
338 00:42:12.920 ⇒ 00:42:20.809 John Wessel: sick, like, they’re super happy. So that, like, that’s an interesting, like, interface that, that we’re kind of exploring, but… Yeah.
339 00:42:21.540 ⇒ 00:42:22.460 John Wessel: Cool!
340 00:42:22.950 ⇒ 00:42:23.979 John Wessel: This is fun.
341 00:42:24.480 ⇒ 00:42:46.949 Robert Tseng: Yeah, no, appreciate the time, John. I think, you know, we’d love to stay in touch, like, yeah, let me know to sit on it. If there’s anything of the things that I offered, like, you can… that we can help you with, let me know. Yeah, and I’ll just… we’ll keep this open line, like, I’ll throw you an email with me and Lou, Tom, like, I’ll kind of send… I know we didn’t really talk too much, like, numbers and kind of… but I want to also show you the opportunity. You know, there’s a timing to this as well, like… Sure.
342 00:42:46.950 ⇒ 00:42:51.480 Robert Tseng: We think that the exit could come within 2-3 years, and so we want to make this compelling to you.
343 00:42:51.480 ⇒ 00:42:51.820 John Wessel: Yeah.
344 00:42:51.820 ⇒ 00:43:08.839 Robert Tseng: I’m sure you could try to keep grinding it out and growing it, but if you want to kind of… I mean, I think, for me, it’s all green flags so far in terms of, like, what, you know, you’ve shared, like, I do feel like you’d be a really strong kind of, like, partner for us, and so, yeah, I think I’d be interested in kind of keeping the conversation going.
345 00:43:09.480 ⇒ 00:43:14.880 John Wessel: Okay, cool, yeah, yeah, send over an email, yeah, we’ll stay in touch, and sounds good.
346 00:43:15.100 ⇒ 00:43:16.690 Robert Tseng: Cool. Alright, thanks, John.
347 00:43:16.950 ⇒ 00:43:17.750 John Wessel: Alright, see ya.
348 00:43:17.750 ⇒ 00:43:18.799 Robert Tseng: Take care. Bye.