Meeting Title: Brainforge Partnership Manager Role Discussion Date: 2026-04-09 Meeting participants: Robert Tseng, Hugo
WEBVTT
1 00:00:53.700 ⇒ 00:00:55.560 Hugo: Hey, what’s going on, Robert? How are you?
2 00:00:56.500 ⇒ 00:00:58.599 Robert Tseng: Hey, Hugo. Okay, great.
3 00:00:58.830 ⇒ 00:01:02.330 Hugo: We figured that out. Yeah, the Zoom was being weird.
4 00:01:02.330 ⇒ 00:01:08.320 Robert Tseng: Yeah, it’s like, Kayla’s on another call, and I was like, Kayla, send this to Hugo, and…
5 00:01:08.460 ⇒ 00:01:17.889 Robert Tseng: whatever, I was like, okay, I’ll just email him, but I was like, ugh, maybe he’s never gotten an email from you before, he might think this is spam. Okay, alright, let me just tell him that, like, we’re okay.
6 00:01:19.350 ⇒ 00:01:21.739 Hugo: We’re here, we made it. How you doing, man?
7 00:01:22.120 ⇒ 00:01:23.370 Robert Tseng: I’m doing well.
8 00:01:25.320 ⇒ 00:01:28.850 Robert Tseng: Yeah, glad we got to, glad we got to, got to connect.
9 00:01:29.460 ⇒ 00:01:39.030 Robert Tseng: Yeah, well, I mean, I, I… I got some of the details from… from Kayla’s call. I think, just the timing, you know, sorry to hear what happened with Amplitude.
10 00:01:39.450 ⇒ 00:01:43.270 Robert Tseng: A little bit more, kind of, like, what, kind of what happened, and .
11 00:01:43.270 ⇒ 00:01:43.870 Hugo: Worse, yeah.
12 00:01:43.870 ⇒ 00:01:59.260 Robert Tseng: what you’re thinking… what you’re thinking next, but, you know, on this call, you know, I think we’re gonna basically have you talk to me, and I’m the decision maker, but we have another, like, partnerships advisor, because this is really our first time hiring somebody who’s just kind of…
13 00:01:59.760 ⇒ 00:02:02.930 Robert Tseng: Doing partnership,
14 00:02:03.070 ⇒ 00:02:17.489 Robert Tseng: I guess, as a go-to-market channel. Before, it’s really just been me and my co-founder. We have… we have our hands at a lot of different places, and I’ll share more about, kind of, what the current state of affairs is, but I’m hoping to at least give you more clarity on, like, kind of, specifically where we’re at.
15 00:02:17.490 ⇒ 00:02:23.389 Robert Tseng: I’d love to pick your brain on, like, you know, if you were to come in and be this person, how you would run it.
16 00:02:23.390 ⇒ 00:02:28.829 Robert Tseng: And I think it’s gonna just kind of be more, like, high level that way, and I’m… and
17 00:02:28.830 ⇒ 00:02:43.559 Robert Tseng: yeah, just trying to assess if, like, this is kind of aligning with what you’re looking for in your next role. So, well, I’ll tell you what I did here already, like, I understand comp, I understand you want to stay in SF, I understand that you have, like, this mix of, like.
18 00:02:43.590 ⇒ 00:02:47.109 Robert Tseng: What you want your role to look like day to day.
19 00:02:47.110 ⇒ 00:02:47.520 Hugo: Yeah.
20 00:02:47.520 ⇒ 00:02:48.320 Robert Tseng: And…
21 00:02:48.440 ⇒ 00:02:55.929 Robert Tseng: So I… I did hear those things already. So yeah, I guess you… but yeah, that’s… that’s, that’s kind of where I’m starting from, so…
22 00:02:56.460 ⇒ 00:02:59.440 Hugo: Yeah, totally, man. No, great to connect, and thank you for
23 00:02:59.560 ⇒ 00:03:12.929 Hugo: for, reaching out, and obviously it was pretty abrupt, you know, I think just to give context, I think maybe it’ll be helpful for you to just be behind the veil a bit. I mean, you know, there’s been a lot of change,
24 00:03:13.080 ⇒ 00:03:16.309 Hugo: the past 6 months, so I think that it kind of started with
25 00:03:16.420 ⇒ 00:03:22.509 Hugo: Francois, the chief product officer, left about 6-7 months ago. And then,
26 00:03:22.700 ⇒ 00:03:32.039 Hugo: we were kind of kicking off for a new AI-native CPO, they have not yet filled that position, and then about a month ago, president, CMO, COO, all let go. A lot of.
27 00:03:32.040 ⇒ 00:03:32.460 Robert Tseng: Really?
28 00:03:32.460 ⇒ 00:03:45.919 Hugo: Wow. Yep. Yep. A lot of mid-level marketing managers who’ve been here for a long time let go, and I think the idea is basically leaner, less bureaucracy, you know, Spencer, the CEO, I think is all in on, like.
29 00:03:46.000 ⇒ 00:03:55.510 Hugo: we cannot win and be a company in 5 or 10 years if we’re not really reshaping how we’re doing things now, which I understand, and to be fair, a lot of the leaders that
30 00:03:55.620 ⇒ 00:04:06.300 Hugo: he needed to bring in 4 or 5 years ago to, like, build Enterprise ARR and build a mo… you know, that motion, and the folks who had been at, like, big, you know, Dropbox and…
31 00:04:07.460 ⇒ 00:04:21.429 Hugo: other, you know, other huge companies for the last, you know, 10, 20 years. Maybe it’s a little bit… that skill set is less relevant now. Not that that’s not so important to win big contracts, but I think he feels confident in what they’ve built so far, and now they’re trying to
32 00:04:21.430 ⇒ 00:04:31.600 Hugo: how do we win the AI native? How do we win and compete with companies like PostHog and the up-and-coming, you know, who are earning a lot of startup share, they’re earning a lot of, like, the new AI company share.
33 00:04:31.600 ⇒ 00:04:32.020 Robert Tseng: Yeah.
34 00:04:32.890 ⇒ 00:04:39.279 Hugo: So, you know, in that context, right, waking up, April Fool’s Day, man, I was like, what a bad day to do it.
35 00:04:39.280 ⇒ 00:04:40.950 Robert Tseng: Oh, really? Oh, man.
36 00:04:41.380 ⇒ 00:04:54.000 Hugo: Well, to be fair, I think, you know, so our H2 bonuses came March 31st, so they allowed us to, like, earn those out, and then, you know, start April. So anyway, you know, there’s some severance, a little bit of COBRA and stuff, and so, you know.
37 00:04:54.580 ⇒ 00:04:57.419 Hugo: It’s part of business. I think the one thing that is…
38 00:04:57.590 ⇒ 00:05:06.459 Hugo: that is… will be interesting to follow, is, like, whether they can execute on this. And I have great, colleagues, and, you know, I’ll be rooting them along. I have no ill will.
39 00:05:06.460 ⇒ 00:05:07.130 Robert Tseng: Yeah.
40 00:05:07.130 ⇒ 00:05:11.409 Hugo: Because the product, as you know, is very strong. Like, it’s very strong when used right.
41 00:05:11.610 ⇒ 00:05:25.700 Hugo: it’s also not the easiest to implement and to get a lot of value out as a beginner. Now, that’s exactly why you guys get hired to come in and do some of these deployments, but we’ll see. We’ll see. And so I think, you know, for me.
42 00:05:25.790 ⇒ 00:05:34.869 Hugo: The role, which was affiliate and partnership heavy, was really enjoyable, and that’s why the role that you kind of reached out with is, you know, caught my eye.
43 00:05:35.240 ⇒ 00:05:39.919 Hugo: I think, as I mentioned to Kayla, and I think it’s abundantly clear, like, I’m not looking for
44 00:05:40.050 ⇒ 00:05:42.459 Hugo: a pure sales role, right? Where it’s like.
45 00:05:42.510 ⇒ 00:05:57.640 Hugo: SDR, you’re just making a, you know, 500 calls a day, and it’s just volume, you know, all that. Not what I’m looking for. I think there’s absolutely an element of, like, even in the partnership stuff I was doing, it is still selling, it’s just not, like, pure cold outbound, right? It’s like.
46 00:05:57.640 ⇒ 00:06:02.689 Hugo: Building rapport and, you know, managing stakeholders, like, all of that, totally cool.
47 00:06:02.730 ⇒ 00:06:21.179 Hugo: great, happy to, you know, work with sales as well, like, make introductions and be on some of those first calls. Like, all of that I’m comfortable with. I’m just not looking for something where it’s like, alright, like, we gotta build a book of business from scratch, but it’s like, we’re gonna do that by calling 500 times a day, cold, and, you know,
48 00:06:21.300 ⇒ 00:06:26.100 Hugo: networking, partnership’s great. So… yeah, I think,
49 00:06:26.230 ⇒ 00:06:32.350 Hugo: the things that, like, the role itself, I feel confident I could… I could do, and, you know, hope it’s a fit.
50 00:06:32.650 ⇒ 00:06:37.219 Hugo: what I’m most curious to hear is a little bit more about, like.
51 00:06:37.870 ⇒ 00:06:50.040 Hugo: what… how you guys operate, what Brainforge, what the culture is, how you guys operate, what the structure of this go-to-market team is… you’d like it to look like in 3, 6, you know, 12 months.
52 00:06:50.040 ⇒ 00:06:58.500 Hugo: And just get a better sense of the vision. I think I understand, you know, the data side, certainly. There’s… it looks like you do these AI deployments as well. Curious to hear about that.
53 00:06:58.570 ⇒ 00:07:07.899 Hugo: But yeah, getting a sense of the culture, where the business is going, and then, then trying to see if it’s, like, a mutual match is kind of where my head’s at right now.
54 00:07:08.210 ⇒ 00:07:12.630 Robert Tseng: Sure, yeah, happy to start with kind of the bigger picture, kind of where we’re headed.
55 00:07:12.810 ⇒ 00:07:16.300 Robert Tseng: And give you more context on, kind of, Brainforges and org, so…
56 00:07:16.680 ⇒ 00:07:29.500 Robert Tseng: Yeah, so, I mean, I think we’re very much in… we’re on the services side, which I think is probably, you know, one thing to call out that’s different from products. I think, like, for us, the bet that we’re making is that,
57 00:07:29.720 ⇒ 00:07:35.369 Robert Tseng: We don’t think there is a winning horse in the race for, like, products that are,
58 00:07:36.020 ⇒ 00:07:41.099 Robert Tseng: that are, like, AI-native products, especially in the analytics, in the analytics world. I think
59 00:07:41.120 ⇒ 00:07:54.339 Robert Tseng: Everyone’s kind of, like, vying for position right now, and we actually feel like being a services provider is a unique advantage, because we’re agnostic, we’re able to partner pretty broadly, we’re a systems integrator for quite a few different tools.
60 00:07:54.340 ⇒ 00:08:05.850 Robert Tseng: And so… but what makes us, you know, how we grow as a business is that we’re able to kind of, like, value stack by bringing on different tools. You know, we implement the whole stack. So, like, a dream implementation.
61 00:08:05.850 ⇒ 00:08:11.359 Robert Tseng: which we’ve done a few times would be, like, we bring Snowflake into an organization.
62 00:08:11.360 ⇒ 00:08:36.209 Robert Tseng: We did… we set up the warehouse native connector to Amplitude when that first got going. It actually wasn’t that great, so we ended up, you know, sometimes clients end up using Mixpanel or using… using PostHog, so whatever the product analytics layer we use for is that. And then, you know, we do all the data modeling through dbt, and so that’s pretty much, like, the core data engineering stack that we stand up in org. And then from there, we’re, like, layering on additional, like, kind of AI work streams.
63 00:08:36.210 ⇒ 00:08:52.100 Robert Tseng: where we’re either bringing in additional AI tools into a team, or now, like, you know, I think Snowflake has gotten so good that, like, Cortex AI and, like, you know, there’s a lot more, kind of, AI features that are being pushed out from the foundational components, the data stack as well.
64 00:08:52.100 ⇒ 00:09:07.360 Robert Tseng: So, I think there’s fewer tools that we implement, and really, our long-term vision is to secure a more privileged position in the Snowflake ecosystem. So, I think that would be kind of the one year from now, like, we would like to be, like, a very strong Snowflake partner.
65 00:09:07.580 ⇒ 00:09:23.990 Robert Tseng: I think for our size of 25 people, we’re already listed on the directory, we get, we get past leads through Snowflake, it consistently, they give us the biggest deals, when we’re able to, like, when we’re able to work that out. So, I think, yeah, definitely need somebody who’s, like.
66 00:09:23.990 ⇒ 00:09:31.040 Robert Tseng: Even if you haven’t done it before, kind of has, like, the vision for, like, what it takes to get into one of these, what we call, hyperscaler partnerships.
67 00:09:31.040 ⇒ 00:09:31.580 Hugo: Yeah.
68 00:09:31.710 ⇒ 00:09:48.999 Robert Tseng: Yeah, so we have an advisor who’s kind of done a lot in the AWS and GCP space, and getting agencies into, into those, part… into the, into that partnership, like, channel. But we, I guess, yeah, I think we’re just trying to do it on the Snowflake side.
69 00:09:49.300 ⇒ 00:10:04.769 Robert Tseng: But along the way, like, you know, I think Snowflake, that relationship takes a while to grow, so we just… we have a lot of other, you know, tools, you know, Amplitude, we’re published in Bixpanel as well, Omni, I would say those are the three primary ones that have passed us leads before.
70 00:10:04.770 ⇒ 00:10:20.330 Robert Tseng: Where, yeah, I think, like, you know, these are… these are at the… at the analytics layer, where we’re either building visualization and reporting through it, or, like, actually just helping drive a self-serve, analytics motion in… in… in one of these product analytics tools.
71 00:10:20.330 ⇒ 00:10:20.710 Hugo: Mmm.
72 00:10:20.710 ⇒ 00:10:43.360 Robert Tseng: And, yeah, I think, like, deal flow is more consistent coming from these types of tools, and so just continuing to grow the relationships with these partner channels is kind of, like, what I think is, in the short term, what’s going to be able to, you know, you’re going to be able to get wins, and, you know, when we talk about, like, bonus structure, commission, or whatever, like, I think that’s kind of… that’s the lower hanging fruit to maintain.
73 00:10:43.360 ⇒ 00:10:53.110 Robert Tseng: And then we have all these other… I mean, we have about 15 partners in total, and so, like, there’s another class of, like, 10 partners that are in different categories. Some are just, like, already…
74 00:10:53.130 ⇒ 00:11:05.270 Robert Tseng: we have a pretty static relationship, like, we have… we know… they… they’re just, like, a very niche tool. Like, we have an ETL… we have an ETL partner, they’re called Polyatomic. We have, a… a,
75 00:11:05.560 ⇒ 00:11:13.279 Robert Tseng: I guess a… Oh, yeah, like, for… specifically, if we’re working within, like, healthcare, and they need.
76 00:11:13.280 ⇒ 00:11:13.629 Hugo: in life.
77 00:11:13.730 ⇒ 00:11:24.500 Robert Tseng: fast reporting out of the box, because they work with some very difficult connectors that we want to build out in-house. We have a very specific partnership for that. But those, like, niche partners, I don’t really see them
78 00:11:24.500 ⇒ 00:11:35.679 Robert Tseng: like, growing that much. They’re… they’re pretty much, like, at… at their… at their TAM. They’re not really… we’re not really betting on them to become, like, a long… a long-term partner, but still, like, they… we…
79 00:11:35.680 ⇒ 00:11:52.819 Robert Tseng: we refer clients to them all the time, and they also kind of bring… they do bring us business occasionally. So there’s, like, kind of a maintaining the status quo with them. And then there’s other partners that are, like, we’re kind of calibrating. We’re trying to keep up with the latest tools. We’re working up… working to build relationships with
80 00:11:52.820 ⇒ 00:11:57.060 Robert Tseng: You know, new partners that are kind of… that fit well with the solutions that we’re offering.
81 00:11:57.290 ⇒ 00:12:05.160 Robert Tseng: And so I’ll give you an example. There’s actually a tool called Contextual AI. They were actually quite prevalent when
82 00:12:05.270 ⇒ 00:12:20.559 Robert Tseng: you know, maybe 3 years ago. They’ve been going through a lot of, like, kind of chaos internally as well. But it’s actually a great opportunity, because, now they’re basically about to just hand us their book of business, and all these inbound leads, because they’ve had to… they got… they got…
83 00:12:20.560 ⇒ 00:12:36.040 Robert Tseng: A lot of their senior leadership got acquired, and you know, they’re like, okay, well, we just have to either pivot the business or keep the lights on. It is possible this company will die within 6 months, but, you know, while they’re still around, I want to bring in as many deals as we can from them.
84 00:12:36.040 ⇒ 00:12:36.680 Hugo: Yeah.
85 00:12:36.680 ⇒ 00:12:53.369 Robert Tseng: And so I do think that there are quite a few, like, pretty, like, well-funded, you know, startups that are going to get their legs chopped off, but, like, we still have an opportunity to work with them to kind of bring their deals to us, because they can’t service their customers anymore. So,
86 00:12:53.370 ⇒ 00:13:03.020 Robert Tseng: Yeah, all that to say is, like, partnerships is a very core part of our motion. 60% of our sales were driven by partners in the past two quarters, and so…
87 00:13:03.030 ⇒ 00:13:19.059 Robert Tseng: I had not previously thought to bring someone on full-time to do this, but now, you know, I think this is going beyond what, like, me and Utam, my business partner, can really just, like, you know, run… maintain on our own. So, yeah, I think that’s kind of the lay of the land of, like.
88 00:13:19.220 ⇒ 00:13:24.890 Robert Tseng: Kind of on the bet that we’re making, and also kind of partnerships as a go-to-market channel for us.
89 00:13:25.730 ⇒ 00:13:38.879 Hugo: Super helpful context, thanks for that. I’m curious, are most of the deals rip and replace, or are they net new builds? Like, are people coming to you with, hey, we did it ourselves, it’s not working, or this other agency didn’t do well, or is it… is it completely kind of fresh?
90 00:13:39.220 ⇒ 00:13:50.489 Robert Tseng: Yeah, it’s a mix, and honestly, the complete fresh ones are the bigger… are the bigger deals. Yeah, so, like, we have a… we’re working with a client that’s, like, a net new snowflake built from scratch.
91 00:13:50.490 ⇒ 00:14:01.079 Robert Tseng: Much, much better. I mean, they don’t have… they don’t have something to compare to. Whereas, like, if it’s, like, I was unhappy with my previous agency, or, like, we just… we just lost our head of data and the data team.
92 00:14:01.180 ⇒ 00:14:18.129 Robert Tseng: Yeah, they kind of, like, benchmark us against what they were paying before, and it’s typically much harder to punch higher from there. But still, that is, like, a good chunk of our business as well, but I would say that, you know, we want to get to a place where, like, Snowflake, we already do some lead sharing with them.
93 00:14:18.130 ⇒ 00:14:30.539 Robert Tseng: like, they’re trying to go after net new accounts, and we’re kind of there to help them close the deal and also to do the implementation. So, we think that that would probably be, you know, that’s what we’re… that’s what we’re aiming at.
94 00:14:31.180 ⇒ 00:14:47.249 Hugo: That makes sense, okay. And so, can you walk me through maybe how it works now, and then also, let’s say, 6 months from now, how you think it’ll work when a new lead comes in the door? What is the flow right now, and then once you have maybe this partnership manager, or maybe some expansion on the sales team, like, what do you guys hope for it to look like?
95 00:14:47.580 ⇒ 00:14:51.730 Robert Tseng: Yeah, so, like, from, like, a lead, like, a partner lead, or are you talking about…
96 00:14:51.730 ⇒ 00:14:56.499 Hugo: hey, you know, A says we’ve got this new company, AC could be good, etc.
97 00:14:56.950 ⇒ 00:15:10.729 Robert Tseng: Yeah, so, yeah, basically, you know, we have, like, a few AEs that we’re calling every week, that we have good relationships with. They’re sharing these with us, they’re saying, like, hey, I mean, I’m in New York, so I’m in the Northeast, I’ll just speak to that. It’s like, hey.
98 00:15:11.090 ⇒ 00:15:23.219 Robert Tseng: you know, I mean, I can disclose, we used… we worked with Insomnia Cookies, and, you know, Snowflake’s been trying to go out for Trumble, and so, like, they’re like, hey, like, I need you to come to this…
99 00:15:23.220 ⇒ 00:15:46.729 Robert Tseng: We’re doing, like, an in-house workshop for Crumble, like, you know, come and be, like, the data expert talking about, like, kind of what snowflake work you did on the Insomnia side, and basically, like, try to sell into this. So, I’m going in there, the AEs there, we’re literally… I’m literally helping them do the account mapping, figuring out who the stakeholders are, helping assess, like, kind of the maturity of the org, mapping out the legacy stack.
100 00:15:46.790 ⇒ 00:15:48.889 Robert Tseng: Yeah, really helping to kind of…
101 00:15:49.120 ⇒ 00:16:07.029 Robert Tseng: I don’t have the… the playbook is all… is gonna… is theirs to run, because they have multiple people. But yeah, it… I mean, that’s a pretty high-touch account, and we’re working that deals. We’ve been working on it for months. So, you know, I think where… I think a partnerships manager who knows their way around the sales cycle more would be able to
102 00:16:07.200 ⇒ 00:16:20.410 Robert Tseng: yeah, you know, just pick this up and know, kind of, like, how to sequence the rest of this sales cycle, and just plug me in when I need to be there to, you know, talk to a head of tech, or, like.
103 00:16:20.740 ⇒ 00:16:28.139 Robert Tseng: maker and help kind of push things along. So, really looking for somebody who, like, understands, you know, what partner…
104 00:16:28.360 ⇒ 00:16:31.649 Robert Tseng: Both, like, on the vendor side, what the partners are…
105 00:16:32.170 ⇒ 00:16:34.470 Robert Tseng: What, what they, what they need from, from us.
106 00:16:34.470 ⇒ 00:16:34.830 Hugo: hazard.
107 00:16:34.830 ⇒ 00:16:44.780 Robert Tseng: As, like, as their partner in order to kind of keep the momentum going. But also, like, in working with the end customer, being able to, like.
108 00:16:45.240 ⇒ 00:16:47.480 Robert Tseng: Have the bigger picture of, like.
109 00:16:47.670 ⇒ 00:17:00.519 Robert Tseng: what are the different milestones we need to hit before a deal like this can close, you know? So, yeah, I mean, we have, like, some, like, learning experience from this already, and we have some frameworks that have been handed to us from, like, our… from our advisors.
110 00:17:00.520 ⇒ 00:17:11.649 Robert Tseng: But yeah, I think, like, this is, you know, this would be an exercise that I would like to, you know, run with you. Like, what would you propose to be, like, like, you know, like a 30, 60, 90 plan for, like, how you would…
111 00:17:11.650 ⇒ 00:17:23.920 Robert Tseng: how you would come in, audit our partner system, and, like, really build a strategy that you would want to do. So, you know, in lieu of, like, a really formal, like, you know, interview process, like, I feel like that’s probably the best way for you to
112 00:17:23.920 ⇒ 00:17:37.520 Robert Tseng: you know, come in, learn kind of our current state, and, like, you know, you put forth, like, what you think you’d be able to do with us, and, you know, if we’re all good, I think that’s the way that you would be able to come in and start right away.
113 00:17:38.220 ⇒ 00:17:45.109 Hugo: Yeah, definitely, super helpful, and hopefully you guys get that account, that would be a nice win. You get, like, the… that’s gotta be a majority of the cookie market, you know?
114 00:17:45.850 ⇒ 00:17:49.240 Hugo: market in America, so that’d be… that’d be cool.
115 00:17:49.240 ⇒ 00:17:49.680 Robert Tseng: Yeah.
116 00:17:49.680 ⇒ 00:17:53.120 Hugo: Okay, so then, it sounds like… I just want to really hone in, so it sounds like.
117 00:17:53.120 ⇒ 00:17:53.660 Robert Tseng: Cheer.
118 00:17:53.660 ⇒ 00:17:56.249 Hugo: You know, you and Utam are…
119 00:17:56.670 ⇒ 00:18:06.400 Hugo: end-to-end salespeople right now. You know, your founders, your CEOs, but, like, you’re really… you’re… the leads are hitting, and then you guys are working them. You’re stepping in at every stage.
120 00:18:06.530 ⇒ 00:18:09.539 Hugo: The partnerships manager is gonna really replace a lot of this.
121 00:18:09.730 ⇒ 00:18:12.389 Hugo: I want to understand,
122 00:18:12.680 ⇒ 00:18:19.230 Hugo: you know, because that really does take on, like, a kind of AE component, right? Like, working the deal, progressing,
123 00:18:19.340 ⇒ 00:18:23.829 Hugo: Do you, like, envision this partnership manager running,
124 00:18:24.140 ⇒ 00:18:35.540 Hugo: that flow for, like, the foreseeable future for several years, or do you have plans to bring in more, like, traditional sales AE people, or is this hybrid model how you guys want to go after it?
125 00:18:36.690 ⇒ 00:18:37.320 Robert Tseng: Yeah, so…
126 00:18:37.320 ⇒ 00:18:37.810 Hugo: 2018.
127 00:18:37.810 ⇒ 00:18:40.420 Robert Tseng: No, I think it’s a great question. I, I think,
128 00:18:40.700 ⇒ 00:18:55.889 Robert Tseng: I’m definitely open to expanding, kind of, building out a sales force, I guess. So, I mean, I’m saying we’re doing partnerships with you, but I also have, you know, outbound is, like, still 20% of our business, and I, you know, all this, like, growth hacking, go-to-market engineering, like, I pretty much do all of that right now.
129 00:18:55.890 ⇒ 00:19:09.479 Robert Tseng: And so, eventually, like, I want to get that to a place where, you know, I’m gonna hire, like, BDRs that are gonna actually hit the phones and hit our list as well. I don’t see, like, you and this partnerships person really, kind of.
130 00:19:09.720 ⇒ 00:19:25.009 Robert Tseng: kind of going over there. But in terms of, like, yeah, maybe you get to a point, you set up the system, the vision, and also, like, then you’re like, hey, I want to bring on AEs to kind of manage, like, key accounts. Or if you’re saying, like, hey, you know what? Forget this, your biggest bet is that you just want to focus on
131 00:19:25.010 ⇒ 00:19:31.100 Robert Tseng: like, the top 3 partners or whatever, like, then I think… I think we have some flexibility there. Like, I think we…
132 00:19:31.120 ⇒ 00:19:42.279 Robert Tseng: we’re very AI-enabled. You’ll see, just kind of, like, just how AI-native we are. We have, you know, for a services company, we’ve invested a lot in our internal platform and product, and
133 00:19:42.280 ⇒ 00:20:01.810 Robert Tseng: you know, I know that, like, across all the benchmarks, like, you know, we’re doing well compared to other, you know, agencies, you know, our size or even bigger. And so, like, we have very healthy margins. They’re, like, you know, we’re close to 70% margins, which is kind of unheard of for service companies. So yeah, like, we are very bought into, like, the whole
134 00:20:01.810 ⇒ 00:20:16.299 Robert Tseng: AI can really make, you know, agencies run with, like, software like Margins. We’re not there yet, but, like, that is, that is the, you know, that’s UTAM’s vision, and, like, in terms of how we’re going to, you know, when we think about our exit strategy and where we want to be, you know, 3 to 5 years from now.
135 00:20:16.300 ⇒ 00:20:33.490 Robert Tseng: yeah, like, it’s possible we will… we will… we will sell, and, we want to… we want to exit the business within… within 3 to 5 years. We just think that things will really, really change by then. So, we’re not really looking for somebody who’s just, like, pure RevOps, partner ops person, just building up all of this, like, infrastructure.
136 00:20:33.490 ⇒ 00:20:40.640 Robert Tseng: Like, I really just… I need somebody to come in and, like, really, really get… get… get… get some wins quickly, grow… grow with us.
137 00:20:40.640 ⇒ 00:20:41.410 Hugo: Grow the biz, yeah.
138 00:20:41.410 ⇒ 00:20:46.209 Robert Tseng: next couple years, and I think there… there will be a… there will be a good outcome, then.
139 00:20:46.210 ⇒ 00:20:46.650 Hugo: Yeah.
140 00:20:46.650 ⇒ 00:21:01.819 Robert Tseng: Yeah, we’ve been bootstrapped for the past 3 years, never had to… never had to raise funding, so we… we feel, like, secure in that, like, you know, we’re not, like, running up against, like, a dot… like a… you know, we’re not… we’re not, like, over… overstaying our welcome here, like, we…
141 00:21:01.820 ⇒ 00:21:09.169 Robert Tseng: we have… we’re able to kind of keep the business going, pretty healthily. So, yeah, I think, like, the, you know.
142 00:21:09.330 ⇒ 00:21:22.390 Robert Tseng: I think all of those things are, you know, you should probably consider as you’re… as you’re, you know, I don’t think there’s gonna be one day somebody’s gonna come in and, like, change the leadership team or whatever. Like, the company is really just me…
143 00:21:22.390 ⇒ 00:21:25.170 Hugo: The VC is telling you, you gotta go faster or break.
144 00:21:25.170 ⇒ 00:21:25.550 Robert Tseng: Yeah.
145 00:21:25.550 ⇒ 00:21:36.759 Hugo: replace you guys. Now, that’s, I mean, very impressive, and it sounds like the business is in a strong place. So, couple, yeah, a couple things I want to touch on. I do have to hop at 11. We can obviously have another follow-up call, but.
146 00:21:36.760 ⇒ 00:21:37.090 Robert Tseng: Sure.
147 00:21:37.090 ⇒ 00:21:49.640 Hugo: Curious, like, you briefly mentioned, so you haven’t fundraised, I know everyone’s contracting right now. It sounds like there’s a move to salary. Yep. It doesn’t sound like there’s an equity component for comp currently for anyone?
148 00:21:49.960 ⇒ 00:21:56.369 Robert Tseng: Yeah, not for contractors. I think for our first class of W-2s, that… those are… yeah, I mean, there’s gonna be a group
149 00:21:56.370 ⇒ 00:22:20.820 Robert Tseng: that are going to convert to W-2. I think equity is on the table for them. Once they hit their, like, kind of 10-year marks, they’re people that have been with us for over a year. They’re the first ones up on those conversations. So yeah, I mean, we’re open to it. I think it’s very much like, I understand your total cop and, you know, the range that you gave, Kayla, so I obviously wouldn’t want to, you know, do purely cash on that. I think we want to be able to mix that in with some commission.
150 00:22:20.820 ⇒ 00:22:39.200 Robert Tseng: with some… with some equity. So, I mean, I think those things are all on the table, but if you were to start, we typically… I don’t think we would start you, you wouldn’t be part of that first group to convert to W-2. You would probably have to stay 1099 for a bit until we do kind of get… get around to that, and then equity could be on the table, so…
151 00:22:39.200 ⇒ 00:22:50.439 Hugo: Got it. Yeah. Yeah, cool, just wanted to clarify. And then, no hard numbers, I’m curious, when you look at this role, how are you thinking about, assuming equity’s not involved, base and commission?
152 00:22:51.010 ⇒ 00:22:57.159 Robert Tseng: Yeah, so, I mean, we’ve talked to about 5 people so far, and, like, the range is all over the place, to be honest.
153 00:22:58.050 ⇒ 00:23:11.939 Robert Tseng: Yeah, like, I’ve… I’ve heard people that are, like… and some people are okay with, 50% being just base, and then the other 50% being just purely, like, performance-driven, like, more… more, like, traditional AE kind of salary, kind of breakdown.
154 00:23:11.940 ⇒ 00:23:19.680 Robert Tseng: So, like, that was interesting. Then there’s other people who are more on the ops side that, like, just want more cash up front, which…
155 00:23:19.770 ⇒ 00:23:27.759 Robert Tseng: I don’t know, I don’t… I don’t really think I’m leaning towards… towards doing that. Like, I… I don’t know if 50% is the right mix, but, like, I think,
156 00:23:27.760 ⇒ 00:23:29.149 Hugo: I was thinking somewhere in the middle, right?
157 00:23:29.150 ⇒ 00:23:30.170 Robert Tseng: Yeah, play somewhere in the middle.
158 00:23:30.170 ⇒ 00:23:31.319 Hugo: benefit. Yeah.
159 00:23:31.320 ⇒ 00:23:47.590 Robert Tseng: Yeah, yeah, so I think, yeah, we’re open to it. I think, like, your number is not, like, crazy, so, like, we can… we definitely want to work with you on that. And I know you want to stay in SF. I think it’s super important, like, to be in a, you know, Tier 1 city, just either SF or New York, or…
160 00:23:47.730 ⇒ 00:24:01.180 Hugo: I’ve got a COVID red late, man. I can’t leave. I got in here to this apartment in 2021, pack heights, 900 square feet, and I’m paying, like, 4,500 now, so I can’t leave gold in handcuffs.
161 00:24:01.180 ⇒ 00:24:04.110 Robert Tseng: Yeah, no, no, yeah, you should ride it out, and
162 00:24:04.690 ⇒ 00:24:08.249 Robert Tseng: You know, there’s a lot of great events, and in-person stuff is super important, so…
163 00:24:08.250 ⇒ 00:24:18.480 Hugo: Yeah, the energy is real. It’s not just hype, it’s pretty crazy lately, like, there really… there’s been such a vibe shift, and part of it is the city and the mayor, but a lot of it is also just…
164 00:24:18.530 ⇒ 00:24:30.659 Hugo: energy with AI and, and just everything that’s going on. It feels… it feels different. And maybe, you know, that’s just from… from being in, like, the news cycle changing and everything changing, but we’re on the upswing.
165 00:24:30.660 ⇒ 00:24:31.270 Robert Tseng: Yeah.
166 00:24:31.410 ⇒ 00:24:32.030 Robert Tseng: No, I mean…
167 00:24:32.030 ⇒ 00:24:45.280 Hugo: Like, how do you, so you have this remote team. I’ve worked, like, you know, several different companies, similar size, so, you know, Command AI, which Amplitude bought where I was working, that was 20, 30 people.
168 00:24:45.280 ⇒ 00:24:45.730 Robert Tseng: Yes.
169 00:24:45.730 ⇒ 00:25:04.299 Hugo: fully distributed, before that, distributed, etc. Can you tell me a little bit about, like, the working culture? You know, what are the, kind of, the values that you guys, have as a business? Do you guys collaborate mostly written? Is it more meeting? Is it async? Like, just give me a sense of, kind of, how you guys operate.
170 00:25:04.570 ⇒ 00:25:18.809 Robert Tseng: Yeah, so we are definitely a Slack company, and everybody makes a lot of noise on Slack. We trigger a lot of workflow, we trigger, you know, ARA agents out of Slack, we’re booking meetings, every… you know, that is our primary channel of communication.
171 00:25:19.040 ⇒ 00:25:22.110 Robert Tseng: Yeah, and then from there, like, we don’t…
172 00:25:22.280 ⇒ 00:25:25.250 Robert Tseng: I think meeting… I think meeting,
173 00:25:26.010 ⇒ 00:25:44.439 Robert Tseng: you could… your calendar can fill up with meetings at a remote company if you don’t control it, but we’re always trying to kind of push… push down, like, you know, don’t be a part of meetings you don’t need to be a part of. And so we… at least we have… we have… we have some controls around that, so they’re not always in meetings. But actually, like, you know, something that we’re considering now that we’re about 25 people.
174 00:25:44.450 ⇒ 00:25:58.280 Robert Tseng: Utom’s in Austin, I’m in New York, and we have, like, 6 coming on 7, starting next week, people in LA. Wow. My wife and I are considering moving to LA and actually just running hybrid,
175 00:25:58.310 ⇒ 00:26:16.410 Robert Tseng: hybrid LA and Austin only. You know, I think your role would be an exception because, yeah, I think, like, being in the SF or New York is very valuable. But yeah, I think the, you know, I believe the expectation… we already do meet, like, at least twice a quarter, at least to the core, like, U.S.-based team.
176 00:26:16.410 ⇒ 00:26:35.070 Robert Tseng: We have, like, some engineering talent that’s abroad, and, you know, those people will stay contractors and not really be kind of part of the core culture. But yeah, I think that’s, you know, we are kind of, you know, thinking that, hey, in this next phase, I think we really gotta spend more in-person time together. And, yeah, I think that’s something I’m actively considering right now.
177 00:26:35.950 ⇒ 00:26:39.110 Hugo: Yeah, super helpful, and I think that that makes sense.
178 00:26:39.340 ⇒ 00:26:42.730 Hugo: And so, you know, as you guys,
179 00:26:42.830 ⇒ 00:26:58.419 Hugo: you guys continue to grow. Like, something I’ve seen as I’ve been with companies go from, like, 10 to 20 to 30 and beyond, you know, things strain, right? And things change, and the culture is very easy to maintain at small levels, and then as it grows, it gets harder. Are there, like, core,
180 00:26:58.420 ⇒ 00:27:05.189 Hugo: you know, tenets or values that you guys operate, you know, around, whether it’s very defined, you have a document. If not, if it’s.
181 00:27:05.190 ⇒ 00:27:05.510 Robert Tseng: Yeah.
182 00:27:05.510 ⇒ 00:27:08.469 Hugo: Generally, how we… how we treat each other, how we interact? Are we…
183 00:27:08.790 ⇒ 00:27:11.529 Hugo: You know, how we pursue, you know, our goals together.
184 00:27:12.230 ⇒ 00:27:24.319 Robert Tseng: Yeah, totally. And I’ll send you a doc, we… it’s overdue for refresh, but, like, yeah, I mean, as far as remote culture, I would think, like, one of my values is, like, strong opinions, loosely held, and so…
185 00:27:24.760 ⇒ 00:27:33.819 Robert Tseng: I think, like, especially when you have limited FaceTime, like, when we jump on meetings with each other, like, the expectation is that you come prepared with the point of view, and
186 00:27:33.820 ⇒ 00:27:45.170 Robert Tseng: And, like, be willing to kind of hash things out, like, kind of on a call. So, I think, you know, we’re not, like, super, like, all trim and proper in, like, needing decks and memos to come to every meeting, but, like…
187 00:27:45.170 ⇒ 00:27:57.380 Hugo: That was the worst part of Amplitude, oh my god. I hadn’t done a deck in five years. Startups, direct, let’s, let’s… one-pager, let’s, let’s actually talk about it, work it out, and then Amplitude was decks, decks, oh my god, like… Yeah.
188 00:27:57.380 ⇒ 00:28:01.500 Robert Tseng: It’s funny because, like, a lot of our clients, bigger ones, are like that, they require that.
189 00:28:01.500 ⇒ 00:28:03.310 Hugo: Oh, they love them even more, yeah.
190 00:28:03.310 ⇒ 00:28:20.309 Robert Tseng: Yeah, but, yeah, for definitely internally, we’re like, that’s not how we… that’s not how we work. And so, yeah, I think, I think, you’ll find that it’s a very kind of open, and very direct kind of, communication style, from… from… from all the leaders, at least.
191 00:28:20.310 ⇒ 00:28:27.660 Robert Tseng: And then from, like, an accountability standpoint, yeah, I mean, we are data people, so we measure, like, everything, and
192 00:28:27.660 ⇒ 00:28:44.910 Robert Tseng: yeah, where every hour that’s being logged, kind of like, you know, if we have feedback, you know, both horizontally and also vertically, like, how… we’re always trying to, like, make suggestions on, like, how you could do adjustments. And then we’re also very AI-forward. I think, like, you have to be using AI in order to thrive at this company.
193 00:28:44.910 ⇒ 00:28:46.330 Robert Tseng: Yeah, so, like.
194 00:28:46.330 ⇒ 00:28:47.960 Hugo: Music to my ears, man.
195 00:28:47.960 ⇒ 00:28:54.889 Robert Tseng: Everybody is in cursor, and, you know, we… we… it’s a very… it’s a core… it’s a core tenet for us that, like,
196 00:28:54.890 ⇒ 00:29:17.499 Robert Tseng: you know, everybody’s building skills are engineers, not engineers, and, like, we’ve done it this way because, yeah, we want everybody to be thinking… and we do bonuses off of, like, if you… if you’re able to automate an ex… like, a certain percentage of your work, like, you get bonuses tied to that. And we have a company standard overall that, you know, right now we’re at 20% of our engineering tickets are AI executed.
197 00:29:17.500 ⇒ 00:29:19.769 Robert Tseng: So, yeah, like, as soon as…
198 00:29:19.770 ⇒ 00:29:20.650 Hugo: grown, yeah.
199 00:29:20.650 ⇒ 00:29:37.719 Robert Tseng: agents are able to see that, like, hey, like, this… this, this ticket is, you know, 80, 85% confident, like, they’re just gonna… the agents are just gonna go and run it. And I wanna… I wanna raise that standard up to 40% by the end of the year. So, you know, I think, like, the last thing I’ll say, I know you gotta go, and we gotta have a meeting, is that, like.
200 00:29:37.960 ⇒ 00:29:44.490 Robert Tseng: honestly, if the models didn’t get any better, I think we will still, like, continue to win, because,
201 00:29:44.490 ⇒ 00:29:59.179 Robert Tseng: yeah, like, for data work, it’s good enough that it can do, like, a lot of my work. My last in-house role doesn’t exist anymore. I can’t go back to it. Like, I just… I just don’t believe that there’s a role like that anymore. And so, yeah, to us, this is, like, very much…
202 00:29:59.450 ⇒ 00:30:13.009 Robert Tseng: we’re at the frontier of taking what the labs are releasing and trying to bring it to companies and trying to help them adopt it into their work. And so, I think it’s always a steep learning curve here. People are always doing things they’ve never done.
203 00:30:13.010 ⇒ 00:30:25.569 Robert Tseng: And I think it requires a lot of humility as well to do that, to admit that you don’t know, but people are really curious and collaborative about trying to figure it out. So, yeah, I think that’s… that’s really kind of, I think, what
204 00:30:25.570 ⇒ 00:30:36.290 Robert Tseng: what makes, you know, working here so exciting for me. But yeah, I’m happy to kind of introduce you to other people so you can kind of hear from them and not… not just me. Yeah. Yeah.
205 00:30:36.290 ⇒ 00:30:50.900 Hugo: No, of course, no, this has been great. Thanks for kind of filling in the picture. I think I understand the business and how you guys operate a lot better, and yeah, would love to kind of review the values and think a little bit more, and maybe have a couple more conversations with whoever you think would be the right touchpoints.
206 00:30:51.190 ⇒ 00:31:02.790 Robert Tseng: Yeah, yeah. Okay, so it’ll be Steve. Steve is, like, our partnerships advisor, so I’ll kind of give you… yeah, hopefully he’ll set up time with you next week. And then, yeah, I’ll probably pick, like, another… one more… one more person.
207 00:31:02.790 ⇒ 00:31:15.719 Robert Tseng: like, probably at that, like, at the same level that you’d be coming in at, you know, and, have you chat with him as well. So, maybe you can expect to kind of get those scheduled in. I’ll run it through, all through Kayla in the next week.
208 00:31:16.400 ⇒ 00:31:18.619 Hugo: Sounds great. Appreciate it, looking forward to it.
209 00:31:18.620 ⇒ 00:31:19.840 Robert Tseng: Cool. Thanks, Hugo.
210 00:31:20.410 ⇒ 00:31:21.060 Hugo: Thanks, buddy.
211 00:31:21.060 ⇒ 00:31:21.680 Robert Tseng: Bye.