Meeting Title: Brainforge SL Structure Q&A Date: 2026-04-01 Meeting participants: Samuel Roberts, Awaish Kumar, Demilade Agboola, Brylle Girang, Uttam Kumaran
WEBVTT
1 00:00:56.060 ⇒ 00:00:56.940 Samuel Roberts: Hello.
2 00:00:57.480 ⇒ 00:00:58.130 Awaish Kumar: Right.
3 00:00:59.230 ⇒ 00:01:00.139 Samuel Roberts: How are you doing?
4 00:01:01.590 ⇒ 00:01:02.829 Awaish Kumar: I’m good, how about you?
5 00:01:03.730 ⇒ 00:01:05.050 Samuel Roberts: Pretty good, pretty good.
6 00:01:10.270 ⇒ 00:01:12.110 Samuel Roberts: Just give it a few more minutes, I guess.
7 00:01:46.660 ⇒ 00:01:47.539 Brylle Girang: Hey, everyone.
8 00:01:48.330 ⇒ 00:01:49.060 Samuel Roberts: Hey!
9 00:01:50.870 ⇒ 00:01:51.730 Uttam Kumaran: Hi, guys.
10 00:01:52.550 ⇒ 00:01:54.650 Samuel Roberts: Sorry, probably didn’t have you in the invite. My bad.
11 00:01:56.940 ⇒ 00:02:00.209 Uttam Kumaran: All good, I was just talking to him before, I said, just hop on.
12 00:02:00.660 ⇒ 00:02:01.050 Samuel Roberts: Perfect.
13 00:02:02.580 ⇒ 00:02:18.409 Uttam Kumaran: Okay, I think we have a… I think we have everybody, right? I guess Jasmine’s not here, but… yeah, I mean, main goal of this was, like, I kind of just wanted to do a little bit of Q&A on, like, how these things are changing. I think everybody on this call has had a different flavor of…
14 00:02:18.510 ⇒ 00:02:24.240 Uttam Kumaran: some of the parts of, like, the new SL structure that, that, you know, I’m proposing.
15 00:02:24.650 ⇒ 00:02:25.679 Uttam Kumaran: And I think…
16 00:02:26.160 ⇒ 00:02:40.409 Uttam Kumaran: this… I want this meeting to kind of be like this, and then I know we’re gonna have kind of individual calls to sort of be like the, okay, I proposed a lot of new responsibilities, or really codified a lot of existing things.
17 00:02:40.700 ⇒ 00:02:47.980 Uttam Kumaran: what’s still unclear? Like, what do we feel like is too much, or what do we feel like we can expand on? I think…
18 00:02:48.400 ⇒ 00:02:59.920 Uttam Kumaran: If last quarter was really the focus on getting the foundations, and then, you know, really, like, taking care of a lot of the stuff on the engagement planning side, and, like.
19 00:03:00.700 ⇒ 00:03:16.350 Uttam Kumaran: kind of understanding, like, CSOs versus SL. I think this quarter is going to be purely my focus is on enabling both of these teams. So I already am spending time with the CSOs, talking everything about account man… everything I know about account management, presentation.
20 00:03:16.710 ⇒ 00:03:23.910 Uttam Kumaran: you know, helping on the sales side. I think with this crew, I’m really interested in talking about, like.
21 00:03:24.420 ⇒ 00:03:28.249 Uttam Kumaran: How do we produce extremely great quality work?
22 00:03:28.480 ⇒ 00:03:42.960 Uttam Kumaran: how do… how do you manage sort of a… how is managing a service different than, like, managing a client? And then also, like, how do we continue to leverage AI so not only things get more accurate, but also things are… shift faster?
23 00:03:43.190 ⇒ 00:03:49.130 Uttam Kumaran: And the last piece, and then again, I think just kind of, like, want us to be Q&A, is… is,
24 00:03:50.090 ⇒ 00:03:55.300 Uttam Kumaran: service lead role is going to… you guys are gonna elevate. I think…
25 00:03:55.300 ⇒ 00:04:13.909 Uttam Kumaran: right now, I think, Sam, you probably have, like, the biggest team out of… and then so does Jasmine, but Awashia and Demi, you guys are gonna get some more folks, and your time should elevate to more, in addition to just… you may continue to execute client work, but looking at, like, your service overall, understanding, like.
26 00:04:14.170 ⇒ 00:04:28.120 Uttam Kumaran: how are we developing the things we’re developing for clients across the board? What are some new services that we can propose? How is my service getting bundled into an offer, you know, that’s going out to clients? And really giving you guys ownership over, like.
27 00:04:28.700 ⇒ 00:04:39.209 Uttam Kumaran: I’m running, like, dbt Excellence, or anytime we’re doing data engineering, or anytime we’re doing AI. And so, our conversations are gonna be around, one, definitely around quality.
28 00:04:39.370 ⇒ 00:04:50.000 Uttam Kumaran: you know, you can think about in, like, a Tesla factory, for example, they may look at, like, okay, how many doors came back with defects that didn’t make it off the line, right? So those kind of conversations.
29 00:04:50.000 ⇒ 00:05:03.119 Uttam Kumaran: We’re also gonna look at, like, kind of, like, manufacturing speed. Like, how long does it take us to produce, you know, a door, for example? Another thing is, like, the fact that, like, the door is a combination of a bunch of pieces, right? So there’s a playbook to put that together.
30 00:05:03.450 ⇒ 00:05:13.229 Uttam Kumaran: And then ultimately, someone is selling a car that a door is a part of, so how do they speak about the door? What are the features of the door that matter to talk about, right?
31 00:05:13.250 ⇒ 00:05:29.139 Uttam Kumaran: And so that is purely gonna be owned by this crew, and we’re breaking up the services in our company across data, AI, and strategy, but within those, there’s several subservices that I’m happy to sort of go into today, but…
32 00:05:29.510 ⇒ 00:05:37.499 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, tell me what questions you guys have, and after reading, sort of, anything that I’ve sent, what can I… what can we answer?
33 00:05:42.430 ⇒ 00:05:44.830 Samuel Roberts: I can start, I guess. I think my…
34 00:05:45.280 ⇒ 00:06:01.380 Samuel Roberts: first question is, like, allocation kind of stuff. Like, I have not been in operating a bunch. I… I was just looking at 1Password. I have a login, but I couldn’t even… not sure where the link is, because it prompts me for, like, the name. So I haven’t seen a ton of that, so I’m not super familiar with that. I don’t know where…
35 00:06:01.850 ⇒ 00:06:08.189 Samuel Roberts: how much I need to know about that, basically, at this point, because Panav and I were talking about that earlier, in terms of, like, Eden AI and ABC and…
36 00:06:08.610 ⇒ 00:06:13.069 Samuel Roberts: just balancing that out, I wasn’t sure. I saw some of the stuff in the docs you just posted.
37 00:06:13.360 ⇒ 00:06:14.170 Uttam Kumaran: Yes.
38 00:06:14.170 ⇒ 00:06:15.269 Samuel Roberts: But I… Great question.
39 00:06:15.270 ⇒ 00:06:15.640 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
40 00:06:15.640 ⇒ 00:06:16.790 Samuel Roberts: That a little bit, too.
41 00:06:17.190 ⇒ 00:06:25.040 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, so one thing, and I think, Awash, you may be most familiar out of everybody on, sort of, allocations, really, like.
42 00:06:25.210 ⇒ 00:06:27.980 Uttam Kumaran: Part of this is just, you know.
43 00:06:28.150 ⇒ 00:06:41.820 Uttam Kumaran: it’s just a resource allocation, right? So in our business, we’re… in some businesses similar, you may say, like, points or hours, like, we’re doing everything in hours, we’re just gonna assume people have a bulk of hours, and how are they getting allocated to executing work?
44 00:06:41.960 ⇒ 00:06:48.519 Uttam Kumaran: But it’s not only ours, right? There’s people involved, there’s projects, there’s all these different,
45 00:06:49.000 ⇒ 00:06:50.900 Uttam Kumaran: There’s all these different,
46 00:06:51.000 ⇒ 00:07:07.929 Uttam Kumaran: you know, all this nomenclature around work types. And so one thing that, I’ll probably go into further, in our one-on-one call is, like, how to use operating, but really, like, all I want to share is the basics is just who is working in your service.
47 00:07:07.930 ⇒ 00:07:08.460 Samuel Roberts: Let’s, yeah.
48 00:07:08.460 ⇒ 00:07:11.479 Uttam Kumaran: what projects are they on, and how long are they spending? So…
49 00:07:11.640 ⇒ 00:07:29.939 Uttam Kumaran: even, like, the way operating’s set up, you may find kind of confusing, but I think I just want to boil it down to, like, like, Sam, on your team, you have, like, Casey and Masafa, and maybe Pranav is also doing some work, and you’re doing some work. Okay, what is that basket of hours, and how is it getting shifted between ABC and Eden?
50 00:07:30.140 ⇒ 00:07:45.040 Uttam Kumaran: Right? For a way, it may be a little bit more complicated. He has a Sweeney, like, I’m covering maybe some stuff, he’s still working, right? And then for Demi, it’s really just him and some of Mustafa. You guys are hiring. So one, it’s like.
51 00:07:45.290 ⇒ 00:07:54.950 Uttam Kumaran: for… for Demi, in a way, it should look thin. I think for Sam, it should look like, okay, we’re able to do appropriate allocation. And so a good example of, like, what I put together,
52 00:07:55.090 ⇒ 00:08:07.510 Uttam Kumaran: and this is really in this, like, Q2 resource allocation, is basically, I tried to write a single doc that the company can reference to, like, okay, what is the delivery team working.
53 00:08:11.280 ⇒ 00:08:11.880 Samuel Roberts: Oh.
54 00:08:12.230 ⇒ 00:08:13.400 Demilade Agboola: I think what sounds…
55 00:08:13.400 ⇒ 00:08:15.640 Uttam Kumaran: on. Okay. Right, and so in here, you’re gonna see, you’re gonna.
56 00:08:15.640 ⇒ 00:08:16.959 Samuel Roberts: You just went out.
57 00:08:17.620 ⇒ 00:08:20.779 Uttam Kumaran: You’re… you’re gonna… sorry. Oh, okay, okay, okay.
58 00:08:20.780 ⇒ 00:08:21.100 Demilade Agboola: The last.
59 00:08:21.100 ⇒ 00:08:21.929 Uttam Kumaran: Can you hear me now?
60 00:08:21.930 ⇒ 00:08:24.570 Demilade Agboola: What is the delivery team? That was the last thing we heard.
61 00:08:25.230 ⇒ 00:08:29.179 Uttam Kumaran: Okay, this is, like, what is the delivery team expected to accomplish?
62 00:08:29.460 ⇒ 00:08:37.479 Uttam Kumaran: In Q2, right? So purely focused on external. And then there’s just a lot of notes here, but let’s take a look at, like, one
63 00:08:37.570 ⇒ 00:08:56.599 Uttam Kumaran: project. What I want this to be is, like, okay, this is clear, like, where is the project plan? What is the active SOW, right? But again, you think about all the different types. You have the SOW, which is a contract, you have the HubSpot deal, you also have the operating
64 00:08:56.710 ⇒ 00:09:14.810 Uttam Kumaran: project, you also have the Clockify project, and you have the linear team, right? So, this document should become the link between all of them, and there will be a sort of a database backing behind this. But ultimately, if you want to look at this one client, in one view, you should see what are the active projects.
65 00:09:14.810 ⇒ 00:09:17.140 Uttam Kumaran: What are the services that we’re delivering?
66 00:09:17.140 ⇒ 00:09:20.980 Uttam Kumaran: And what are the positions, and who’s in the position, and how much time are they spending?
67 00:09:21.500 ⇒ 00:09:22.310 Uttam Kumaran: Right.
68 00:09:22.630 ⇒ 00:09:39.930 Uttam Kumaran: So, this is still TBD, and so I kind of, like, did my first pass on this, and I think this is what we will go over together, one-on-one. But you can see, like, for example, on default, like, I don’t think this is entirely, you know, accurate, like, I just sort of tried to
69 00:09:40.340 ⇒ 00:09:46.000 Uttam Kumaran: Finish this up quickly today, but you… what you should see here is, like, for default, right.
70 00:09:46.200 ⇒ 00:09:48.000 Uttam Kumaran: Greg is the CSO.
71 00:09:48.150 ⇒ 00:09:51.100 Uttam Kumaran: There’s some data engineering work, there’s some…
72 00:09:51.230 ⇒ 00:09:58.839 Uttam Kumaran: modeling work, and there’s some strategy work. So this is actually gonna be, like, a little bit of a collaboration, which is like, hey, we have 80 hours.
73 00:09:59.010 ⇒ 00:10:09.820 Uttam Kumaran: how is it getting split between the services, and then who is executing the service? So I want us to, like… our business is gonna start to separate itself from, like.
74 00:10:10.250 ⇒ 00:10:11.860 Uttam Kumaran: This person…
75 00:10:12.250 ⇒ 00:10:20.619 Uttam Kumaran: like, is here, and so they do this type of work, to, like, what work is needed, and then there’s a decision on who has the skill set to execute that work.
76 00:10:20.810 ⇒ 00:10:29.849 Uttam Kumaran: Right? So, right now, you see, like… so, does that make kind of sense? So, one-on-one will kind of go through the clients that are with… that are… that are…
77 00:10:31.240 ⇒ 00:10:34.899 Uttam Kumaran: you could say buying your service, right?
78 00:10:35.030 ⇒ 00:10:54.890 Uttam Kumaran: And so I think that’s… that’s… I think we’ll go through one-on-one on looking at, okay, how many… how do we decide how many hours are available? How do we look at how many services, like, what services are getting purchased by the client? And then how do we assign people? There are some nuances, right, in terms of out-of-office, in terms of skill set, in terms of, like.
79 00:10:54.890 ⇒ 00:11:03.980 Uttam Kumaran: Okay, this person’s on 4 clients versus 2. So these are the things that we’ll work on, but similar to the client success team, where I am…
80 00:11:03.980 ⇒ 00:11:21.910 Uttam Kumaran: I’m handing off, and I’m gonna start to just disseminate what I’ve learned about resource allocation. That’s how we’re gonna operate, where I’m gonna give you the reins to resource allocate, and then when you get into the bind, we’ll discuss. And I have some tips from how I thought about it. Ultimately, I think
81 00:11:21.920 ⇒ 00:11:25.870 Uttam Kumaran: You will have a much narrower understanding about your service as well, so…
82 00:11:27.940 ⇒ 00:11:36.469 Uttam Kumaran: And then one more piece on the resource allocation side. For this quarter, I’m not expecting this crew to do, like.
83 00:11:36.570 ⇒ 00:11:42.290 Uttam Kumaran: a lot of people management. What does people management mean? It means, like,
84 00:11:42.740 ⇒ 00:11:50.510 Uttam Kumaran: when am I getting promoted? Like, I’m… I’m struggling, like, you know, I want us to…
85 00:11:50.510 ⇒ 00:12:06.440 Uttam Kumaran: what I don’t want to do is, like, lay so much on folks, and then it’s, like, sort of impossible to do. So Kayla and I are still meeting with everybody on the delivery team. I’m comfortable taking that on, but if that’s something… I know, Sam, you previously were kind of doing this one-on-one with everybody.
86 00:12:06.780 ⇒ 00:12:16.389 Uttam Kumaran: like, so I think this is something over the quarter we will understand. What I… what I want you to focus on is service excellence, and is basically on
87 00:12:16.410 ⇒ 00:12:34.109 Uttam Kumaran: hey, we’re gonna… this service said it could accomplish this outcome in this timeline, and we can do that. Like, that’s… those are the two things I really, like, I’m gonna continue to say, is, like, the fact that things get done on the time we say, so that doesn’t mean fast or slow, right? So choosing the words properly is, like.
88 00:12:34.370 ⇒ 00:12:42.330 Uttam Kumaran: We set the expectations, and we meet the expectations, and then similarly, that what we deliver is… it works.
89 00:12:42.480 ⇒ 00:12:57.289 Uttam Kumaran: Naturally, we will also… this crew is… we’re all engineers, so we will talk a lot about AI and automation, but if we’re able to focus on those things, you’ll see it get faster the more we’re able to standardize. The more we’ll standardize, the more we can automate, so…
90 00:13:02.490 ⇒ 00:13:03.700 Samuel Roberts: Cool. Yeah.
91 00:13:04.920 ⇒ 00:13:06.240 Uttam Kumaran: What other questions?
92 00:13:06.530 ⇒ 00:13:11.760 Awaish Kumar: Yeah, for… I have been looking at the documentation that you shared.
93 00:13:11.890 ⇒ 00:13:15.090 Awaish Kumar: I’ve been looking at the success metrics.
94 00:13:15.320 ⇒ 00:13:16.250 Uttam Kumaran: Yes.
95 00:13:16.680 ⇒ 00:13:19.979 Awaish Kumar: My question is more like the…
96 00:13:20.180 ⇒ 00:13:23.580 Awaish Kumar: the process. So, we have the…
97 00:13:23.780 ⇒ 00:13:32.490 Awaish Kumar: there’s a lot of, like, there has been, quite a few weeks now that we have CSOs and SLs and that, like, the…
98 00:13:33.090 ⇒ 00:13:35.600 Awaish Kumar: The dedicated team members.
99 00:13:35.790 ⇒ 00:13:36.130 Uttam Kumaran: Fair.
100 00:13:37.390 ⇒ 00:13:42.569 Awaish Kumar: And, like, we… Still are not able to come up with linear tickets.
101 00:13:42.820 ⇒ 00:13:49.910 Awaish Kumar: With proper estimations, that can help us with everything, like resource allocation, and…
102 00:13:50.210 ⇒ 00:13:54.829 Awaish Kumar: Planning about, like, when we can deliver what, like, things like that.
103 00:13:56.490 ⇒ 00:14:09.539 Awaish Kumar: yeah, there’s a mismatch, like, on that piece, like, I haven’t seen any collaboration between CSOs and SLs on that piece, that now we have a few more tickets, and…
104 00:14:09.710 ⇒ 00:14:17.859 Awaish Kumar: what are the, like, the story points and things like that. So we forgot completely about story points for a couple of weeks now.
105 00:14:18.820 ⇒ 00:14:26.219 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, so let me talk about that, and then you kind of mentioned success metrics, so I’ll just… I’ll just sort of throw… throw this up while we’re talking.
106 00:14:26.500 ⇒ 00:14:31.329 Uttam Kumaran: One thing that I wanna just, like…
107 00:14:31.750 ⇒ 00:14:40.769 Uttam Kumaran: mention is, yes, like, for the last, like, 2-3 weeks, it’s sort of been, like, alignment. Really, I would consider today and tomorrow, like.
108 00:14:41.180 ⇒ 00:14:43.610 Uttam Kumaran: When we really put this all into motion.
109 00:14:43.690 ⇒ 00:14:53.899 Uttam Kumaran: ultimately, we just, like, just so much shit going on, so we’re just trying to figure it out. But I feel really confident that the CSOs are up to speed on their requirements.
110 00:14:53.950 ⇒ 00:15:05.830 Uttam Kumaran: But one thing I’ve made clear to them is that their job is to take a look at the services that we’re selling, and then make sure that gets handed in the finished pie to the end customer.
111 00:15:05.940 ⇒ 00:15:16.700 Uttam Kumaran: So, this is where I think there’s gonna be natural push and pull, because I think that this crew is the one that should be having ownership over all… over the…
112 00:15:17.410 ⇒ 00:15:27.289 Uttam Kumaran: Basically, the finalization of the tickets, meaning anyone can create a ticket, like, whether it’s a client, whether it’s an engineer, but ultimately, within your service line.
113 00:15:27.780 ⇒ 00:15:43.309 Uttam Kumaran: you will be… you own the fact that all of those tickets, like, are getting assigned. The way that I’m… the way that we’re doing this, is you’ll see in linear, and I just have this rolled out for one client, you’re gonna start to see every ticket get labeled.
114 00:15:43.350 ⇒ 00:15:50.609 Uttam Kumaran: With the appropriate service and subservice. Meaning, you’ll be able to create a view with all the tickets that come out of your service.
115 00:15:50.850 ⇒ 00:16:07.879 Uttam Kumaran: This is where I’m actually going to, like, probably take one step out and say, ultimately, my goal continues to be the same, right? The customer success owner, their job is to make sure that the client is happy,
116 00:16:08.120 ⇒ 00:16:18.220 Uttam Kumaran: And that the client, like, they basically are trying to drive towards renewal and expansion. Your goal is to make sure that you’re hitting timelines, and that the work is quality.
117 00:16:18.960 ⇒ 00:16:26.930 Uttam Kumaran: I want to be careful to go further than that, but I’m willing to help. Meaning, I don’t want to enforce, like.
118 00:16:27.230 ⇒ 00:16:29.650 Uttam Kumaran: Every ticket needs points.
119 00:16:30.160 ⇒ 00:16:43.740 Uttam Kumaran: like, we have to do stand-ups, right? This is why I… I’m not… I’m… I can give you a set of tools, I can give you options of what I think is possible, but what I don’t want to do is say, like, is do what I feel like I’m…
120 00:16:43.860 ⇒ 00:17:03.230 Uttam Kumaran: I want to evolve from before, which is, like, I clearly laid it out, and then it becomes, like, we do things without understanding how they impact the client’s success. So if story points are necessary for you to ensure those two objectives, go for it, right? If story points are necessary for you to make sure that, like.
121 00:17:03.310 ⇒ 00:17:07.299 Uttam Kumaran: You’re hitting things on time, and the work is quality fair.
122 00:17:07.540 ⇒ 00:17:14.139 Uttam Kumaran: I would suggest, like, at least tickets with the work, and making sure that you know where people are allocated.
123 00:17:14.339 ⇒ 00:17:20.859 Uttam Kumaran: But I kind of want to leave it to you. I don’t have… I’m not… I’m not gonna be as,
124 00:17:21.260 ⇒ 00:17:23.669 Uttam Kumaran: Specific on the way you get there.
125 00:17:24.140 ⇒ 00:17:25.740 Uttam Kumaran: Within your service.
126 00:17:25.940 ⇒ 00:17:30.799 Uttam Kumaran: I think you can use every single tool, you can use some tools, you can meet with your, like…
127 00:17:31.080 ⇒ 00:17:37.660 Uttam Kumaran: Do you kind of see how I’m trying to devolve a little bit in sort of the way we put together the process?
128 00:17:40.480 ⇒ 00:17:51.230 Awaish Kumar: Yeah, like, I’m… I’m figuring out the process of, like, the CSOs, like, they just come, like,
129 00:17:51.230 ⇒ 00:17:51.600 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
130 00:17:51.600 ⇒ 00:17:56.240 Awaish Kumar: like, any CSO will come, like, this is really urgent, and I need it.
131 00:17:56.890 ⇒ 00:17:57.630 Awaish Kumar: Back tomorrow.
132 00:17:57.630 ⇒ 00:17:58.090 Uttam Kumaran: Yes.
133 00:17:58.550 ⇒ 00:18:00.189 Awaish Kumar: By the end of this week.
134 00:18:00.700 ⇒ 00:18:01.380 Uttam Kumaran: Yes.
135 00:18:01.730 ⇒ 00:18:04.370 Awaish Kumar: How should I prioritize, like.
136 00:18:04.570 ⇒ 00:18:13.170 Uttam Kumaran: So this is a great question. So this is exactly, like, how this crew and their relationship needs to work, where you’re like, hey.
137 00:18:13.760 ⇒ 00:18:22.109 Uttam Kumaran: I’m trying to maintain that we deliver things on time, and that they’re good. But then someone comes in and is, like, asking for something net new, what should I do?
138 00:18:22.150 ⇒ 00:18:36.789 Uttam Kumaran: So then we’re talking about a case, right? And so more of our conversations, I want to be, like, we’re reviewing a scenario, or we’re reviewing an issue that came up. So here’s an example of, like, Greg is, like, feeling a very similar thing on default. He’s like, I want to have some type of rhythm.
139 00:18:36.790 ⇒ 00:18:44.389 Uttam Kumaran: Right? What does rhythm look like in the old world? You should do stand-up, you should do sprint planning, you should do retro, you should do… right?
140 00:18:44.560 ⇒ 00:18:51.129 Uttam Kumaran: But I’m not… I don’t care. I care that we win, and I care that you accomplish your goals.
141 00:18:51.420 ⇒ 00:19:02.509 Uttam Kumaran: I want to leave it to you. I want to leave it to the CSO on a client, I want to leave it to you on your service. And so, Greg went ahead and was like, okay, for default, I think we should have
142 00:19:03.100 ⇒ 00:19:07.609 Uttam Kumaran: Some type of internal sync. We should have some type of, like.
143 00:19:08.030 ⇒ 00:19:22.139 Uttam Kumaran: start of the week meeting, and I don’t think this is, like, completely done. I think he just, like, threw something together to start the discussion. But ultimately, like, you… this is gonna force you to have a relationship with the CSOs that are using your service.
144 00:19:22.300 ⇒ 00:19:35.760 Uttam Kumaran: But also, you’re gonna have some time… there’s gonna be some time in where, like, it’s gonna feel like, okay, I’m still, like, really reactive, but hopefully what I want this to go is, like, you’re able to look out, you know?
145 00:19:35.940 ⇒ 00:19:49.320 Uttam Kumaran: a week, a month, a quarter on, like, what is my service delivering, you know, across what clients, right? How are more things getting put into playbooks? So I’m not always getting asked, like, what comes next?
146 00:19:49.440 ⇒ 00:19:52.980 Uttam Kumaran: Right? And so I… this is, again, like.
147 00:19:53.030 ⇒ 00:20:11.000 Uttam Kumaran: the way you hit those objectives are, one, you have a good relationship with CSOs, they’re able to, like, come to you with a question that you can answer, versus, like, hey, here’s a problem. Second thing, the more playbooks you’re able to do, which is a success metric.
148 00:20:11.030 ⇒ 00:20:13.539 Uttam Kumaran: Right, the more standardized the work becomes.
149 00:20:13.700 ⇒ 00:20:18.989 Uttam Kumaran: The third is, like, the more… the more purview you have over
150 00:20:19.190 ⇒ 00:20:32.449 Uttam Kumaran: when issues arise, and how are they getting flagged. For example, in linear, I’m gonna create… you’re gonna have views that are like, let me look at all the tickets in the data modeling service that are past due.
151 00:20:32.640 ⇒ 00:20:33.480 Uttam Kumaran: Right?
152 00:20:34.030 ⇒ 00:20:38.479 Uttam Kumaran: Let me look at all the tickets in the data modeling service that are active but unassigned.
153 00:20:38.840 ⇒ 00:20:47.009 Uttam Kumaran: So what are the risks, right? So it’s gonna force you to identify those risks, and some of these, you’re gonna easily be able to do as linear views.
154 00:20:47.550 ⇒ 00:21:05.540 Uttam Kumaran: But ultimately, the fact that you look at the view, and you… you know before the CSO knows that there’s an issue, or you’re on the same page, is what’s gonna work here. This team is starting off is… ultimately, like, what I don’t want this to be is, like, it’s, again, engineering versus the business. It’s, like, this needs to be, like.
155 00:21:05.780 ⇒ 00:21:11.410 Uttam Kumaran: this crew is, like, this is what we build, and how we build it. The other crew is, like, this is how we’re, like.
156 00:21:11.880 ⇒ 00:21:19.520 Uttam Kumaran: picking from all these services to deliver a fixed… a pie, right? And then sales is ultimately going and selling outcomes.
157 00:21:19.650 ⇒ 00:21:32.779 Uttam Kumaran: Right? So sales is selling outcomes, we’re selling, like, the pieces, and the CSOs are basically putting it together and delivering, you know, the pizza. That’s, like, that’s sort of how I want to think about it. So, in your situation, Awash, like.
158 00:21:32.860 ⇒ 00:21:43.199 Uttam Kumaran: I think it’s a… I think, you know, we don’t have to do it today, but, like, as the… as the four of us, five of us meet, like, it’s a great thing that we should just bring up, be like, hey, today, like.
159 00:21:43.410 ⇒ 00:21:53.220 Uttam Kumaran: some… someone came to me with, like, a net new ask. It wasn’t in the SOW. I had no idea that they were even doing… there was even data work gonna be involved.
160 00:21:53.400 ⇒ 00:21:58.750 Uttam Kumaran: what should I do, right? And then we’ll discuss. I think it’s… I think that’s how it’s gonna…
161 00:21:58.910 ⇒ 00:22:00.150 Uttam Kumaran: It’s gonna evolve.
162 00:22:01.120 ⇒ 00:22:02.080 Uttam Kumaran: Very simple.
163 00:22:03.910 ⇒ 00:22:04.760 Uttam Kumaran: He’s excited.
164 00:22:05.120 ⇒ 00:22:05.790 Awaish Kumar: Okay.
165 00:22:07.440 ⇒ 00:22:14.010 Uttam Kumaran: Because all of us are gonna go through that, right? Where you get asked, like, do we do this, for example? Right? You may get asked.
166 00:22:14.330 ⇒ 00:22:16.180 Uttam Kumaran: Hey, do we use this technology?
167 00:22:16.370 ⇒ 00:22:22.069 Uttam Kumaran: Okay, like… I said, I don’t… have we seen it before? How do we evaluate technology?
168 00:22:22.890 ⇒ 00:22:29.840 Uttam Kumaran: there’s a risk, like, okay, looks like it could work, but we haven’t used it before, so am I comfortable with my team doing it?
169 00:22:30.170 ⇒ 00:22:41.260 Uttam Kumaran: even if it’s something new, am I even comfortable putting a timeline on it? So those are the conversations we want to have, and, like, I think that’s just gonna be kind of us all staying as a crew, so…
170 00:22:44.740 ⇒ 00:22:49.690 Demilade Agboola: My… I think my questions are more on, like, escalation.
171 00:22:50.400 ⇒ 00:22:51.980 Demilade Agboola: So, like… Yeah.
172 00:22:52.190 ⇒ 00:22:57.350 Demilade Agboola: Potentially, things seem to be… I’ve,
173 00:22:58.390 ⇒ 00:23:02.409 Demilade Agboola: Falling behind, because, like, execution isn’t necessarily on our plate fully.
174 00:23:02.740 ⇒ 00:23:13.449 Demilade Agboola: Yeah. So, since we’re falling behind, or in certain cases, the excellence that we desire doesn’t seem to be consistently being met.
175 00:23:13.960 ⇒ 00:23:20.199 Demilade Agboola: Yeah. How do we ensure that… We’re able to…
176 00:23:20.860 ⇒ 00:23:25.799 Demilade Agboola: Like, what’s the… what’s the escalation? How’s that handled? Is it, like, what’s the process of…
177 00:23:25.930 ⇒ 00:23:31.300 Demilade Agboola: Being able to realign on, you know, excellence and just timeline, basically.
178 00:23:31.820 ⇒ 00:23:34.310 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, let me talk about that,
179 00:23:34.670 ⇒ 00:23:44.699 Uttam Kumaran: And I did write something up on this, so that’s good. But again, like, it’s all first pass, so I want you guys to sort of give me the take. I mean.
180 00:23:45.360 ⇒ 00:23:49.050 Uttam Kumaran: escalations…
181 00:23:50.950 ⇒ 00:23:59.070 Uttam Kumaran: I think, like, we wanna… we… I think we continue to have escalations. In fact, all I’m introducing are just levels.
182 00:23:59.130 ⇒ 00:24:11.600 Uttam Kumaran: Particularly, like, I’m usually, in many cases, the first escalation, or the only escalation. And I want to remove myself from both of those. But I also want
183 00:24:12.520 ⇒ 00:24:23.970 Uttam Kumaran: this crew to just be another part of that, you know? And what is an escalation? An escalation indicates to me a conflict that there isn’t some arrival at between those two parties, right?
184 00:24:23.970 ⇒ 00:24:33.449 Uttam Kumaran: So whether that’s, like, someone says, hey, did this work get out? I didn’t know it was on my plate. They meet. They still don’t agree, and then it moves up, right?
185 00:24:33.450 ⇒ 00:24:46.409 Uttam Kumaran: And so part of this is just, like, people… this is… people just need to talk and meet more. Oftentimes, what I find is I’ll meet with somebody, and then I’ll meet with the other party, and then I’m like, well, we’re all on the same page, so, like.
186 00:24:46.720 ⇒ 00:24:58.469 Uttam Kumaran: just huddle with somebody, 5 minutes, you guys will get through it. So, part of this is, like, by removing me, I’m actually saving… I’m actually just, like… I think I was bathing a lot of stuff.
187 00:24:58.470 ⇒ 00:25:12.369 Uttam Kumaran: not to be, like, crude, I think I was just involved, and so I’m solving problems where now there is a clear escalation path. I think if I want to talk about, like, what sort of some of the standards are, this is sort of what I wrote, which is just, like.
188 00:25:12.480 ⇒ 00:25:16.930 Uttam Kumaran: Escalate on yellow, right? Escalate when things are, like.
189 00:25:17.090 ⇒ 00:25:25.059 Uttam Kumaran: when you’re like, I don’t… like, if you’re like, I don’t know, you should be like, that’s a… that’s a flag, right? And so…
190 00:25:25.200 ⇒ 00:25:39.589 Uttam Kumaran: I think this is something, but also clearly, like, owned, meaning, like, hey, I have this flag, I don’t know what this means, like, I need to solve this. The second thing is, like, I don’t mind if there’s escalations. In fact, just, like, escalations when…
191 00:25:39.760 ⇒ 00:25:49.979 Uttam Kumaran: they’re late, or, like, there’s not much time, or the stakes are now really high, is brutal, right? And that… that, like, causes so much…
192 00:25:50.160 ⇒ 00:25:52.880 Uttam Kumaran: blockage. And, like, that’s really tough.
193 00:25:53.030 ⇒ 00:25:57.250 Uttam Kumaran: And, like, I think this is kind of it, which is just, like, risk-managed operating, right?
194 00:25:57.370 ⇒ 00:26:16.580 Uttam Kumaran: So, while it’s still… while you can still manage, you move the risks upward. But, like, the worst thing that can happen is that either the escalation path isn’t clear, or people are afraid, like, it will find its way out, and it, like, someone will get hurt, you know? And so…
195 00:26:16.680 ⇒ 00:26:20.679 Uttam Kumaran: This is sort of… there’s sort of some things in here about, like, escalations.
196 00:26:20.840 ⇒ 00:26:24.569 Uttam Kumaran: you know, this is sort of how I’m looking at it right now, which is, like.
197 00:26:24.940 ⇒ 00:26:34.719 Uttam Kumaran: an individual and a team, which is typically all… it’s an engineer, but it’s someone who works among the services, that they may have an issue.
198 00:26:34.850 ⇒ 00:26:53.729 Uttam Kumaran: their job is to remediate either with another IC, if they have a direct client partner, or with the CSO on their team. Like, it should be inter-team. Then it kind of goes up to the service lead, and then it kind of goes up to, like, the service lead and CSO, and then it kind of comes up to me.
199 00:26:55.640 ⇒ 00:27:04.589 Uttam Kumaran: again, this is, like… and it’s not… it’s not very, like… I don’t… I’m not here to say, like, make it clear. I’m saying that problems need to get solved on the ground.
200 00:27:04.930 ⇒ 00:27:08.159 Uttam Kumaran: And the problems that are really tough need to make it to me.
201 00:27:08.370 ⇒ 00:27:16.190 Uttam Kumaran: And, like, it should… that’s the way it should be. And you guys are all open to solving problems. In fact, what I’m hoping to give you is, like.
202 00:27:16.350 ⇒ 00:27:36.190 Uttam Kumaran: the principles by which you can solve these, and then you can say, when the problem occurs, you can look back at, like, hey, what are our standards, right? So, like, in the event something isn’t defined, you can fall back on, like, okay, what do we always do here? We flag early, so let’s flag it early, right? Versus, like, every situation is a new situation.
203 00:27:36.460 ⇒ 00:27:46.789 Uttam Kumaran: And so there’s some stuff here about, like, escalations. I mean, really, like, a couple of things that you can log… you can log the escalation as a ticket.
204 00:27:47.160 ⇒ 00:27:51.410 Uttam Kumaran: I’m already telling people to sort of, if there’s a bug, log the bug so that we can start to track.
205 00:27:51.810 ⇒ 00:27:56.040 Uttam Kumaran: But, like, does that answer your question, Demi, in that, like, this should give you a backing?
206 00:27:56.230 ⇒ 00:28:08.689 Uttam Kumaran: for something to refer to when an escalation comes, for you to say, okay, like, what’s the… what’s the possible step? But in every situation, I’m gonna encourage, like, max communication, like.
207 00:28:09.080 ⇒ 00:28:25.519 Uttam Kumaran: Try to hop on a call, try to get on a huddle, try to just say, like, can you write it in writing, what’s going on? You’re gonna find that oftentimes, people are just under their own pressure to get something done, so they may not give you all the… you know, so it’s all these… it’s commonly just, like, basic miscommunication.
208 00:28:25.520 ⇒ 00:28:30.860 Uttam Kumaran: between us, between the client, between the CSOs, you know, so I think it’s… a lot of this is solvable.
209 00:28:32.460 ⇒ 00:28:36.429 Demilade Agboola: Okay, alright, that’s fair enough. And also…
210 00:28:39.210 ⇒ 00:28:44.939 Demilade Agboola: Is this structure, like, the service lead structure, going to be applied to every single client?
211 00:28:45.360 ⇒ 00:28:51.030 Demilade Agboola: So, potentially, we can have a service lead on most of the clients.
212 00:28:51.960 ⇒ 00:28:54.230 Uttam Kumaran: Yes, so, so,
213 00:28:54.370 ⇒ 00:29:02.840 Uttam Kumaran: I guess this is where I will… I’m gonna refrain from saying a service lead is working on every client, meaning your… the services you own
214 00:29:03.010 ⇒ 00:29:05.769 Uttam Kumaran: Who could get sold to any client.
215 00:29:06.570 ⇒ 00:29:21.439 Uttam Kumaran: because we are a small… we are dealing with small, like, small team right now, yes, there’s more than a high likelihood that if your service is there, and Demi, you’re the only person doing AE work, you’re probably there, right? Or, like, near a waste, you’re covering it, but…
216 00:29:21.670 ⇒ 00:29:25.639 Uttam Kumaran: Just, like, fast forward, like, 6 or 12 months.
217 00:29:25.770 ⇒ 00:29:30.629 Uttam Kumaran: like, every team has, like, 3 to 5 people, right? There may be clients you’re not on.
218 00:29:30.820 ⇒ 00:29:33.770 Uttam Kumaran: But you may still oversee the fact that
219 00:29:33.890 ⇒ 00:29:44.429 Uttam Kumaran: DBT work gets done on that client well, right? So I’m not yet sure whether, like, CSOs are gonna get put on… I don’t… I’m not yet sure whether SLs are gonna be, like.
220 00:29:44.510 ⇒ 00:29:59.970 Uttam Kumaran: introduced to every single client. I’m not yet… I don’t… I don’t know 100%, but assume that your service, if it’s… if it’s there, that you will have oversight over the work, and that you’ll be in the escalation chain, meaning you need to be aware that, like, that we’re selling DBT work to…
221 00:30:00.320 ⇒ 00:30:02.560 Uttam Kumaran: To a certain client, you know?
222 00:30:05.330 ⇒ 00:30:10.939 Awaish Kumar: Okay, right now, I’ll… So, we talked about the allocation in terms of people.
223 00:30:11.090 ⇒ 00:30:16.810 Awaish Kumar: who are assigned to the projects. Now, in terms of requirements, like, from the…
224 00:30:17.090 ⇒ 00:30:21.370 Awaish Kumar: CSO side, like, what clients need,
225 00:30:21.890 ⇒ 00:30:28.860 Awaish Kumar: What, like, how much of your… hours of your service line, so…
226 00:30:28.970 ⇒ 00:30:33.260 Awaish Kumar: Like, should we be revisiting that every week with the CSOs?
227 00:30:33.410 ⇒ 00:30:34.590 Awaish Kumar: How should that look?
228 00:30:36.910 ⇒ 00:30:38.989 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, it’s a good question.
229 00:30:39.740 ⇒ 00:30:49.769 Uttam Kumaran: So part of the reason why I removed a lot of meetings, and, like, try… at least tried to, is that I want you guys to sort of try things.
230 00:30:50.230 ⇒ 00:31:09.719 Uttam Kumaran: Like, part of my goal in removing the daily meetings and giving more space is that you’ll figure out the structures that work best, either for your service line or with your CSO. Ultimately, like, we were really heavy-handed, I think, in saying, like, you have to have these meetings and do this.
231 00:31:10.170 ⇒ 00:31:13.140 Uttam Kumaran: like, what I want to say again is that, like.
232 00:31:13.490 ⇒ 00:31:26.560 Uttam Kumaran: there are some options. If you feel like, hey, I… there’s a couple things. One, we’re gonna drive… my goal as a head of delivery, and if you… if you go into delivery, you’re actually gonna see,
233 00:31:26.870 ⇒ 00:31:44.269 Uttam Kumaran: very similar to the SL and to CSO, like, what I am here to do, and how I work in this triangle. Like, my job is to give us a quarterly and a yearly view of, like, what our team is capable of delivering, and who we’re delivering it for, right?
234 00:31:44.540 ⇒ 00:31:59.000 Uttam Kumaran: And I want to have a clear view of, like, where’s the risk, right? I want to have a clear view of, like, where are all the leaders in the delivery team, like, need help? And then for me, it’s to be… ultimately hold the standards.
235 00:31:59.180 ⇒ 00:32:13.340 Uttam Kumaran: And so, when you talk about, like, when… how often should we do allocation, my recommendation, as someone that’s been in this position, is, like, you should at least aim to have a month out of, like.
236 00:32:13.540 ⇒ 00:32:23.420 Uttam Kumaran: At least, like, a month out in terms of where people are allocated, and on a weekly basis, you should have an understanding of, like, if we’re generally on track.
237 00:32:23.860 ⇒ 00:32:36.559 Uttam Kumaran: And I think, with all our tooling today, you can do that. I think you can… right now, you can go into Cursor, there’s a cursor, there’s a Clockify API key, the data’s in operating.
238 00:32:36.870 ⇒ 00:32:46.169 Uttam Kumaran: We’re gonna confirm how many hours should be going into, a given contract. You should be able to see on a weekly basis whether you’re hitting it or not.
239 00:32:46.600 ⇒ 00:32:50.610 Uttam Kumaran: How often to do the allocation, Ideally.
240 00:32:50.740 ⇒ 00:33:03.439 Uttam Kumaran: you should be able to allocate to the length of the SOW. So we have some SOWs that are 6 months, right? For example, the Element SOW is going to be, like, 6 or 7 months, but we have some clarity on how much work
241 00:33:03.630 ⇒ 00:33:08.449 Uttam Kumaran: okay, we should drive to have more and more clarity. And so this is where, like, ultimately.
242 00:33:08.840 ⇒ 00:33:19.369 Uttam Kumaran: The CSO’s job is gonna be to solve… to, like, make the client happy, which in some cases is gonna be… we need to change a milestone, we need to swap out a person on this, we need to…
243 00:33:19.420 ⇒ 00:33:33.869 Uttam Kumaran: deliver something else. But ultimately, your job is quality, and so there should be this healthy, like… there needs to be… there will be some tension there. But the further you can look out, the easier it is to say, like, okay, cool, I do have, like.
244 00:33:34.190 ⇒ 00:33:38.179 Uttam Kumaran: I will have an additional 30 hours coming online next month.
245 00:33:38.430 ⇒ 00:33:48.289 Uttam Kumaran: I think we can deliver it next month. And you’re gonna find that a lot of our client asks, there’s not a lot of things that need to happen today, but they do want to know when will it happen.
246 00:33:48.920 ⇒ 00:33:52.489 Uttam Kumaran: And in lieu of being able to say it’s gonna happen
247 00:33:52.690 ⇒ 00:33:56.739 Uttam Kumaran: Next month, because we don’t know, we’re just gonna… we just do it today.
248 00:33:57.110 ⇒ 00:34:07.899 Uttam Kumaran: Right. So what I would recommend is if a CSO or something changes, I would say, like, okay, what if we did it next month, and what if I guaranteed you we could do it next month?
249 00:34:08.469 ⇒ 00:34:10.680 Uttam Kumaran: They might be like, yeah, client’s okay with that.
250 00:34:10.800 ⇒ 00:34:16.309 Uttam Kumaran: Versus the client may have just come to them and been like, I need this, and then they’re like, okay, cool, let’s go do this for you.
251 00:34:16.560 ⇒ 00:34:23.290 Uttam Kumaran: So see how now there’s, like… it… it just… it just depends. But I think, like, what I… what I wanna… what I put in the…
252 00:34:23.400 ⇒ 00:34:36.139 Uttam Kumaran: sort of expectations is that this team owns the allocation, and ultimately, like, if there’s a question about who’s on what client, is everybody allocated? Like.
253 00:34:36.370 ⇒ 00:34:40.329 Uttam Kumaran: We went way over on hours, we went way under on hours.
254 00:34:40.510 ⇒ 00:34:45.340 Uttam Kumaran: People are sitting on the sidelines, like, that’s… you’re gonna be the first point of escalation.
255 00:34:47.080 ⇒ 00:34:47.960 Uttam Kumaran: It’s really cute.
256 00:34:55.730 ⇒ 00:35:04.669 Demilade Agboola: So part of being an SL in this case would also be, like, having a standard template for different tasks, and having, like, a…
257 00:35:04.870 ⇒ 00:35:10.359 Demilade Agboola: They should take, you know, 2 hours, they should take 5 hours, they should take whatever. Yeah.
258 00:35:10.880 ⇒ 00:35:20.700 Demilade Agboola: And so that… as those tasks keep coming in, we can keep assigning it, and potentially, if things go over, we can figure out where… where the overestimating or…
259 00:35:21.050 ⇒ 00:35:23.350 Demilade Agboola: Yes. On activating as well.
260 00:35:24.060 ⇒ 00:35:24.700 Uttam Kumaran: Yes.
261 00:35:25.270 ⇒ 00:35:32.739 Uttam Kumaran: So, you’re totally right, and I’ve sort of started, on, like, a little bit of, like, a playbook
262 00:35:33.340 ⇒ 00:35:37.440 Uttam Kumaran: Plan that you can use to start to, like, create these, like.
263 00:35:37.610 ⇒ 00:35:40.920 Uttam Kumaran: reusable plays. And I like plays because…
264 00:35:41.310 ⇒ 00:35:46.899 Uttam Kumaran: it’s a combination of things, right? It could be, like, the sequencing, it could be, like.
265 00:35:47.030 ⇒ 00:35:50.229 Uttam Kumaran: Someone is involved, or a vendor is involved, or…
266 00:35:50.380 ⇒ 00:36:04.530 Uttam Kumaran: You know, so instead, it’s more of, like, a play is, like, something that’s drawn up, there’s a bunch of people involved, and you run it. And so, part of that could be, like, a reusable epic. And you’ll see in this doc, there’s things around, like.
267 00:36:06.000 ⇒ 00:36:20.630 Uttam Kumaran: this is more about internal plays that we kind of can run. But one thing that you can look at here is, like, cool, how about, like, let’s take dbt audit as an example, Demi. Like, you can say, okay, dbt audit, I’m gonna write a two-week dbt audit playbook.
268 00:36:21.100 ⇒ 00:36:25.049 Uttam Kumaran: That’s gonna mean… that involves 10 hours of an analytics engineer.
269 00:36:25.310 ⇒ 00:36:31.110 Uttam Kumaran: That means that they… here’s the first… here are, like, the 15 tickets that are in there.
270 00:36:31.510 ⇒ 00:36:42.779 Uttam Kumaran: And I’m gonna put some estimates on all those tickets, on how long they should take, like, getting access to DBT. Okay, it’s probably, like, 1 to 2 hours, but ultimately, that’s the blocker for everything.
271 00:36:43.330 ⇒ 00:36:50.370 Uttam Kumaran: run this skill in order to, like, scan through everything in dbt for missing configs.
272 00:36:50.510 ⇒ 00:36:58.029 Uttam Kumaran: okay, that’s, like, maybe a one-hour thing to, like, do. Produce this, like, write-up, or produce the deck.
273 00:36:58.160 ⇒ 00:37:03.210 Uttam Kumaran: Right? And you may find that some of those the AE has to do, some of those the CSO has to do.
274 00:37:03.640 ⇒ 00:37:13.449 Uttam Kumaran: so be it, but we’re all running that playbook. And then it goes from, like, hey, this client wants a DBT audit. Okay, like, what is in that again? What do we do? Instead, it’s like, cool.
275 00:37:13.600 ⇒ 00:37:15.069 Uttam Kumaran: I have a playbook for that.
276 00:37:15.290 ⇒ 00:37:16.499 Uttam Kumaran: You can run it.
277 00:37:16.600 ⇒ 00:37:20.590 Uttam Kumaran: What that’s gonna allow you to do, and like, what are some of the success metrics, is…
278 00:37:20.630 ⇒ 00:37:24.270 Uttam Kumaran: I want to make sure that if your playbooks are used.
279 00:37:24.310 ⇒ 00:37:42.720 Uttam Kumaran: And the CSO is like, this playbook really was clutch. Like, I wanna… I basically wanna pay you guys. The second piece is, if you generate a playbook or an offer that sales can sell, and they get a successful sale, there’s also gonna be a piece of that.
280 00:37:43.310 ⇒ 00:37:53.729 Uttam Kumaran: So, my thinking there was, like, instead of just saying, make 10 playbooks, right, which I think all of you guys could just do in AI in 2 seconds, and I would have done it, it’s instead, it’s like.
281 00:37:53.880 ⇒ 00:38:00.070 Uttam Kumaran: to build the playbooks that matter, that can get used today, or can get sold today, as the KPI.
282 00:38:00.180 ⇒ 00:38:13.469 Uttam Kumaran: So if you know that, like, okay, we’re… we do… we’ve done 4 Tableau to Omni migrations, or we’ve stood up a BI tool, like, here’s the stand up a BI tool playbook, right? Here’s the setup snowflake playbook.
283 00:38:13.610 ⇒ 00:38:22.810 Uttam Kumaran: here’s the setup polyatomic playbook, right? That way, the CSO, ultimately, they’re gonna pull from this menu of options, and they’re gonna run.
284 00:38:23.020 ⇒ 00:38:23.830 Uttam Kumaran: Right.
285 00:38:24.040 ⇒ 00:38:32.160 Uttam Kumaran: And there… and ultimately, eventually, our job is to say, we’re gonna do this in 6 months, we do it in 4, and then we get the 12-month renewal.
286 00:38:32.650 ⇒ 00:38:38.679 Uttam Kumaran: Right? And so this is all, like, repeatability and starting to get a sense of the work
287 00:38:38.940 ⇒ 00:38:44.549 Uttam Kumaran: Associated with an outcome we’re trying to deliver is the name of the game here.
288 00:38:48.050 ⇒ 00:39:04.500 Uttam Kumaran: Does that make sense, in terms of playbooks? So, I think we can work together on, like, what makes a great playbook, like, what’s involved. I have a ton of ideas for all of… for each of you on playbooks that we could… that you could easily develop today,
289 00:39:04.810 ⇒ 00:39:12.629 Uttam Kumaran: And we’ll have to… when we get to the point where we’ve developed one and someone’s adopting it, we’ll see, there’ll be friction, and we’ll get through that, you know?
290 00:39:18.520 ⇒ 00:39:25.200 Demilade Agboola: Alright, that makes sense. Yeah, I think at this point, we’re just kind of, like, process managers, basically, like, trying to…
291 00:39:26.680 ⇒ 00:39:32.510 Demilade Agboola: Standardize the process, and just ensure the process is being followed, and just highlighting where, like.
292 00:39:32.510 ⇒ 00:39:35.280 Uttam Kumaran: It should, it should end up like that, like, that is, I think.
293 00:39:35.740 ⇒ 00:39:39.990 Uttam Kumaran: that’s sort of like Utopia, like, that’s… You know?
294 00:39:40.400 ⇒ 00:39:45.220 Uttam Kumaran: That’s, I think, like, think about a buffet, right? Someone’s on seafood.
295 00:39:45.850 ⇒ 00:39:52.420 Uttam Kumaran: But a customer comes in, and they want the buffet. They don’t care that, like, there’s 100 people that just do seafood.
296 00:39:52.640 ⇒ 00:40:00.679 Uttam Kumaran: Right? So I think that’s what I kind of want to share, and yes, like, this group should look more like
297 00:40:01.040 ⇒ 00:40:08.159 Uttam Kumaran: process managers, but I even think, like… I don’t know, I feel like that sounds boring, but kind of, maybe, or it’s more of, like.
298 00:40:08.450 ⇒ 00:40:16.410 Uttam Kumaran: you own this part of the pie, you know? And so one of the things that I also… I’m gonna start to continue to try to push is…
299 00:40:16.430 ⇒ 00:40:33.410 Uttam Kumaran: really, like, I learned this word from AI and from Greg, it was called, like, analogical grounding. It’s like, how do you use analogies to teach the logic of the system more quickly? And so, I’ve picked, like, two… I picked a few different, like.
300 00:40:33.720 ⇒ 00:40:38.669 Uttam Kumaran: analogies, but of course, you guys see me talk about restaurants a lot, which is, like.
301 00:40:38.980 ⇒ 00:40:49.000 Uttam Kumaran: Okay, how do we, like… we’re thinking about these structural truths, right? Preparation, ownership, review gates, escalation, and quality control.
302 00:40:49.170 ⇒ 00:41:02.369 Uttam Kumaran: If we think about a restaurant, right? If you’ve ever, like, heard about Michelin restaurants, there’s… there’s people that are doing mise en blasse, which is, like, preparation. They’re, like, these are people that cut, like, cabbage for, like, 4 hours, get it prepped for service, right? There’s stations.
303 00:41:02.370 ⇒ 00:41:10.769 Uttam Kumaran: There’s dessert, there’s apps, there’s entrees, right? There’s also someone who’s on the pass. Timing and coordination. This is, like, when the…
304 00:41:11.260 ⇒ 00:41:20.479 Uttam Kumaran: dish comes in, 20 minutes, you get the sides, the entree, the drink, and it all comes out, right? Like, how in the world is someone… is the drinks…
305 00:41:20.600 ⇒ 00:41:35.299 Uttam Kumaran: and the entree people, and then the dessert has to come after, like, none of those people, like, they have, like, a few words they talk to each other about, right? But how are they still pacing the whole thing? And you don’t go to a restaurant and order drinks from one person, order entrees from, like…
306 00:41:35.490 ⇒ 00:41:39.939 Uttam Kumaran: you’re at the restaurant, one waiter, right? And so the other thing is, like, quality gate.
307 00:41:40.080 ⇒ 00:41:44.300 Uttam Kumaran: Yes, like, everything needs to get tasted. The drink.
308 00:41:44.460 ⇒ 00:41:49.020 Uttam Kumaran: someone needs to wipe the plate, right? So there’s all these quality gates, and so…
309 00:41:49.180 ⇒ 00:42:01.609 Uttam Kumaran: I’ve, I think these are the ways that we’re gonna start to understand and sort of map our understanding of a client success to other industries, whether it’s consulting.
310 00:42:01.940 ⇒ 00:42:04.410 Uttam Kumaran: Whether it’s banks,
311 00:42:04.450 ⇒ 00:42:11.240 Uttam Kumaran: And really, like, we’re all in service of, like, having a super, super successful customer outcome.
312 00:42:11.280 ⇒ 00:42:20.130 Uttam Kumaran: And I hope these, like, help to map, because we’re not… I don’t want to come across that we’re inventing anything new, but what we are changing is…
313 00:42:20.130 ⇒ 00:42:33.029 Uttam Kumaran: the speed at which it’s been done in our industry. Like, we’ve never had… it’s really rare to see this in consulting, where we’re able to operate at this level without, like, a full project management office.
314 00:42:33.080 ⇒ 00:42:46.319 Uttam Kumaran: with tons and tons of meetings, especially the size that we are. And so what we’re challenging is not, like, that any of this matters, it’s just that, like, we can do it faster, and we can use AI.
315 00:42:46.320 ⇒ 00:42:55.770 Uttam Kumaran: to do… to help us execute for clients. So that’s why, sort of, like, we’re not rethinking anything, which is… which is great. It’s actually just, like.
316 00:42:55.870 ⇒ 00:43:03.880 Uttam Kumaran: we have a much smaller team, we’re not, like, we’re doing something in data and AI and software consulting.
317 00:43:04.010 ⇒ 00:43:09.000 Uttam Kumaran: Like, nobody usually thinks about this. Like, people are just, like.
318 00:43:09.320 ⇒ 00:43:15.040 Uttam Kumaran: you guys know, it’s like, chip whatever works, wait for it to kind of come back, right? Like…
319 00:43:15.650 ⇒ 00:43:20.739 Uttam Kumaran: And so this is where I’m like, I want to challenge us to be like, what does excellent look like in your service?
320 00:43:20.960 ⇒ 00:43:26.980 Uttam Kumaran: And then, the last piece I’m gonna say is, like, and I gave this feedback to Sam because we…
321 00:43:27.400 ⇒ 00:43:35.489 Uttam Kumaran: Sam cutthroatedly said no to 3 people on AI. No, I’m just joking. We… when you guys are hiring…
322 00:43:35.490 ⇒ 00:43:37.670 Samuel Roberts: Soft, cutthroat, soft nose.
323 00:43:37.670 ⇒ 00:43:41.789 Uttam Kumaran: When you guys are hiring, you’re hiring for your station.
324 00:43:42.140 ⇒ 00:43:47.629 Uttam Kumaran: And if this is not someone that you can work with every day, this is not someone that’s gonna be, like.
325 00:43:48.040 ⇒ 00:43:55.549 Uttam Kumaran: crushing DBT work, and it’s gonna be… you’re gonna be proud to have them on your service, don’t let them in the company.
326 00:43:56.060 ⇒ 00:43:56.920 Uttam Kumaran: You know?
327 00:43:57.030 ⇒ 00:44:06.950 Uttam Kumaran: I think you’re… you… I want to give you that key, right? To hold your service to a high regard. Like, I’ve done my job in bringing this crew together.
328 00:44:07.070 ⇒ 00:44:23.610 Uttam Kumaran: Right? And I feel proud. I think we went through a lot of changes, and we all have a really high bar, especially the folks on this call. Such a high bar that we go and intervene, typically. That’s our first thing, versus, like, you know, and so that’s what I want to share with you, is as you’re hiring for your team.
329 00:44:23.750 ⇒ 00:44:27.870 Uttam Kumaran: Don’t look at it like, okay, we just got these people, and I have to hire one of them.
330 00:44:28.440 ⇒ 00:44:33.340 Uttam Kumaran: If you don’t like the person, you don’t think they’re good, don’t hire until you find that person.
331 00:44:33.480 ⇒ 00:44:49.900 Uttam Kumaran: And I promise you, I will find you more talent, I will get you people that you love, that’s on recruiting and people to find that for you. So now you have a relationship with finding resources. But ultimately, like, if you bring on someone into your service.
332 00:44:49.920 ⇒ 00:44:54.119 Uttam Kumaran: That you don’t trust, that you don’t believe is gonna be great or has a path.
333 00:44:54.420 ⇒ 00:44:57.990 Uttam Kumaran: Like, it’s gonna reflect on you and your service, right?
334 00:44:59.410 ⇒ 00:45:06.570 Uttam Kumaran: And so that’s something that I just also wanted… we didn’t talk a lot about recruiting your people, but, like, it’s something that everybody, all of us on this call are now…
335 00:45:06.760 ⇒ 00:45:08.390 Uttam Kumaran: Really integrated in, you know.
336 00:45:14.720 ⇒ 00:45:20.389 Demilade Agboola: Okay, also just, like, clarification, can we have an idea of what the current pods are?
337 00:45:21.010 ⇒ 00:45:21.580 Demilade Agboola: Especially.
338 00:45:21.580 ⇒ 00:45:22.160 Uttam Kumaran: Yes.
339 00:45:22.160 ⇒ 00:45:24.460 Demilade Agboola: Trying to kick into this, like, tomorrow.
340 00:45:25.100 ⇒ 00:45:27.420 Uttam Kumaran: Yes, let me pull that up.
341 00:45:32.280 ⇒ 00:45:33.160 Uttam Kumaran: Slower.
342 00:45:35.360 ⇒ 00:45:36.240 Uttam Kumaran: One second…
343 00:45:43.470 ⇒ 00:45:44.130 Uttam Kumaran: Excellent.
344 00:45:46.300 ⇒ 00:45:46.970 Uttam Kumaran: Visa.
345 00:46:03.000 ⇒ 00:46:03.670 Uttam Kumaran: suck.
346 00:46:33.000 ⇒ 00:46:36.980 Uttam Kumaran: I just finished this, I’m trying to find… where did I put it?
347 00:46:42.450 ⇒ 00:46:44.170 Uttam Kumaran: Okay, let me do my PR.
348 00:47:00.330 ⇒ 00:47:02.229 Uttam Kumaran: Okay, yeah, I found out.
349 00:47:12.670 ⇒ 00:47:13.470 Uttam Kumaran: Okay.
350 00:47:14.510 ⇒ 00:47:20.160 Uttam Kumaran: So… you go to delivery…
351 00:47:20.420 ⇒ 00:47:24.029 Uttam Kumaran: And you go to, Service Lines.
352 00:47:24.210 ⇒ 00:47:29.360 Uttam Kumaran: you’re gonna see that I’ve broken it up into AI, data, strategy, and analytics.
353 00:47:30.190 ⇒ 00:47:34.130 Uttam Kumaran: You’re gonna see,
354 00:47:34.680 ⇒ 00:47:41.120 Uttam Kumaran: that, like, on a monthly level, at least on a monthly level, I’m gonna speak with each of you about the service lines.
355 00:47:41.430 ⇒ 00:47:47.759 Uttam Kumaran: I think the group will end up talking a couple times a week, so… And that’s on me to just…
356 00:47:47.870 ⇒ 00:47:51.979 Uttam Kumaran: kind of figure that out organically. Let’s go ahead and look through, like, data.
357 00:47:52.390 ⇒ 00:47:58.229 Uttam Kumaran: And so if you look at data right now, we have…
358 00:47:59.710 ⇒ 00:48:08.550 Uttam Kumaran: data is sort of split up into several different subservices, and so I have these subservices…
359 00:48:10.490 ⇒ 00:48:12.030 Uttam Kumaran: Here, I think, yeah.
360 00:48:13.490 ⇒ 00:48:19.509 Uttam Kumaran: So, within the data service, Wait, where did I just put this?
361 00:48:23.770 ⇒ 00:48:25.369 Uttam Kumaran: Let me find it, because I just…
362 00:48:30.510 ⇒ 00:48:31.389 Uttam Kumaran: What the…
363 00:48:36.610 ⇒ 00:48:40.500 Uttam Kumaran: I just finished this on the plane today. Okay, let me find it, hold on.
364 00:48:40.740 ⇒ 00:48:46.229 Uttam Kumaran: Basically, I broke up data into data platform and modeling.
365 00:48:46.460 ⇒ 00:48:49.930 Uttam Kumaran: And so, that’s going to basically…
366 00:48:50.910 ⇒ 00:48:58.759 Uttam Kumaran: collapse, sort of, like, what all the, sort of, services are into just two core subservices, so let me find…
367 00:48:59.260 ⇒ 00:49:04.629 Uttam Kumaran: Where I wrote that… Oh, yeah, it’s here.
368 00:49:05.050 ⇒ 00:49:05.780 Uttam Kumaran: Slow.
369 00:49:06.760 ⇒ 00:49:07.630 Uttam Kumaran: There’s that.
370 00:49:18.860 ⇒ 00:49:20.960 Uttam Kumaran: This is just a hub.
371 00:49:24.120 ⇒ 00:49:25.070 Uttam Kumaran: Let’s see…
372 00:49:30.440 ⇒ 00:49:32.459 Uttam Kumaran: Okay, yeah, actually, this is probably good.
373 00:49:32.500 ⇒ 00:49:39.949 Uttam Kumaran: So, 3 service lines. Within AI, you have workflow automation, knowledge, engineering, co-pilots, and agents.
374 00:49:39.960 ⇒ 00:49:56.140 Uttam Kumaran: this is sort of just, like, straight automating workflows, this is everything around context engineering, knowledge engineering, and this is, like, just one of the surfaces. I think this will probably expand as, like, we expand more of our capabilities. Then data, we have platform.
375 00:49:56.140 ⇒ 00:50:01.340 Uttam Kumaran: So this is squarely Awash’s world, like, everything around setting up
376 00:50:01.340 ⇒ 00:50:11.409 Uttam Kumaran: the tooling around infrastructure, and then we have modeling. I… I refrain from calling this analytics engineering, Demi, just because I don’t think, like.
377 00:50:11.560 ⇒ 00:50:14.609 Uttam Kumaran: Any of our clients have ever described it that way.
378 00:50:14.880 ⇒ 00:50:23.989 Uttam Kumaran: And I think it’s just an industry term, so I decided to just kind of call it modeling. And then Strategy and Analytics owns these three.
379 00:50:24.140 ⇒ 00:50:29.870 Uttam Kumaran: Basically, in linear, there’s now a del… there’s now a team called,
380 00:50:30.220 ⇒ 00:50:34.429 Uttam Kumaran: Services, and then there’s actually gonna be,
381 00:50:34.630 ⇒ 00:50:39.819 Uttam Kumaran: projects, or initiatives. There’s actually initiatives for every single service line.
382 00:50:39.900 ⇒ 00:50:45.649 Uttam Kumaran: in establishing the AI service, establishing the data service, establishing the strategy and analytics service.
383 00:50:45.710 ⇒ 00:51:04.030 Uttam Kumaran: And then you’re gonna have, projects. So these are gonna be things that are outside of client work, which is, like, what are the playbooks? How are things, like, operating? Service reviews, where we’ll kind of look through and look at, okay, who’s on there, what did we accomplish? Like, what playbooks did we build?
384 00:51:04.120 ⇒ 00:51:07.659 Uttam Kumaran: And then… There’s some information here on…
385 00:51:07.800 ⇒ 00:51:10.519 Uttam Kumaran: On, like, some of the stuff we already went through.
386 00:51:10.690 ⇒ 00:51:30.440 Uttam Kumaran: So, does that make sense in terms of, like, these service lines? And then in terms of, like, the pods, so, I mean, I think, Sam, it’s clear, like, you… on your team, you have, like, thank you, Mustafa. On… Demi, on your team, right now, I think we’re… we’re gonna make an offer to an AE sometime in the next, like, 2-3 weeks.
387 00:51:30.470 ⇒ 00:51:33.490 Uttam Kumaran: So whoever that is joins your crew.
388 00:51:33.760 ⇒ 00:51:44.180 Uttam Kumaran: I think we’ve previously had, like, knee cover or a waish cover. I think that’ll just be the case until that person lands, and then it’ll be the two of you. And then Awash has Ashwini.
389 00:51:44.180 ⇒ 00:51:57.870 Uttam Kumaran: And then also, part of Mustafa’s time will also go to data engineering. I think this is something Sam and Awesha can talk about. Just Mustafa expressed, like, a lot of interest in, like, doing more data engineering work.
390 00:51:58.020 ⇒ 00:52:01.029 Uttam Kumaran: So this is where I think, like.
391 00:52:01.860 ⇒ 00:52:07.240 Uttam Kumaran: Can someone… I think it was up to us to figure out, can someone sit squarely, like, working on two services?
392 00:52:07.700 ⇒ 00:52:15.979 Uttam Kumaran: I mean, we’ve all kind of done it, so I think it’s up… it’s kind of up for… for debate. The only things that I’m committed to is that, like.
393 00:52:17.840 ⇒ 00:52:28.510 Uttam Kumaran: Right now, subservices have an owner, and so right now, just because these, although it’s only two, are really, really big.
394 00:52:28.770 ⇒ 00:52:33.419 Uttam Kumaran: And then Sam owns this, and Jasmine owns this. I could see a world in where
395 00:52:33.810 ⇒ 00:52:38.899 Uttam Kumaran: really, there’s gonna be two tracks of Brainforge. Either you’re owning a subservice.
396 00:52:39.130 ⇒ 00:52:52.020 Uttam Kumaran: or an offer within that service, like, you could see that, like, for example, let’s say there’s some point in which we’re doing 10 DBT audits a month. There might be someone just in charge of the dbt audit offer.
397 00:52:52.080 ⇒ 00:52:59.779 Uttam Kumaran: Right? But for right now, that’s sort of gonna be the breakup, as we don’t have any more, sort of, service leads right now.
398 00:53:01.810 ⇒ 00:53:15.929 Uttam Kumaran: So, in terms of, like, immediate next steps, I mean, I think tomorrow and Friday, I think me, Kayla, and each of you are gonna… are gonna meet, so we’ll go through… we’ll go through op… we’ll go through, sort of, the allocations together.
399 00:53:16.040 ⇒ 00:53:21.710 Uttam Kumaran: I will also sort of just share with you how I’m thinking about bonuses, and sort of that structure.
400 00:53:21.990 ⇒ 00:53:25.450 Uttam Kumaran: And then, yeah, I mean, I kind of want…
401 00:53:26.100 ⇒ 00:53:34.900 Uttam Kumaran: I want this crew to kind of start to meet, and so we can talk through scenarios and talk through pieces. I think, for me, the biggest ask would be, like.
402 00:53:35.110 ⇒ 00:53:41.659 Uttam Kumaran: See if you can get your head around all of the ways in which your services are being used by clients right now.
403 00:53:42.080 ⇒ 00:53:47.670 Uttam Kumaran: If you can make sure that there are tickets for all of those, and that…
404 00:53:47.900 ⇒ 00:54:04.249 Uttam Kumaran: the people on your service are on board with sort of, like, okay, I’m owning the service and the escalation paths. But this is gonna be a sort of work in progress, so I’m gonna… let’s just keep talking every day, or meet every day, every other day, even just for 15 minutes.
405 00:54:04.710 ⇒ 00:54:22.460 Uttam Kumaran: just to talk about, okay, like, what parts are slowing down, or what parts don’t feel clear. The CSOs have clarity now in that their path is going towards account management, and I think hopefully you guys have seen them take that on, and hopefully freeing y’all up to think about, like, okay, what does excellence look like? But…
406 00:54:22.690 ⇒ 00:54:26.669 Uttam Kumaran: It’s gonna take a… this is gonna take some time. Like, I feel like we…
407 00:54:27.430 ⇒ 00:54:37.180 Uttam Kumaran: we built a lot of infrastructure on the account management side. I think we… we need to… we’re gonna… probably a lot of this quarter is gonna be, like, okay, how do we actually…
408 00:54:37.650 ⇒ 00:54:39.429 Uttam Kumaran: Run our service lines.
409 00:54:39.920 ⇒ 00:54:47.380 Uttam Kumaran: But again, I need your… I need the help from… from you guys. Like, I don’t have… I’m not 100% sure on how things are gonna shake out.
410 00:54:55.840 ⇒ 00:55:03.320 Demilade Agboola: Okay, yeah, I think, especially as… on my side, especially as people, like, at least we get someone on the team.
411 00:55:03.630 ⇒ 00:55:08.059 Demilade Agboola: It does… it will make it much easier to be able to sit down and just, like.
412 00:55:08.060 ⇒ 00:55:08.610 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
413 00:55:09.100 ⇒ 00:55:13.430 Demilade Agboola: Open my computer and focus on knocking out processes.
414 00:55:13.800 ⇒ 00:55:14.370 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
415 00:55:14.370 ⇒ 00:55:15.850 Demilade Agboola: I’m just like…
416 00:55:16.520 ⇒ 00:55:22.280 Demilade Agboola: what excellence looks like, and just ensuring that we have a good idea, and skills as well, like AI skills that will help
417 00:55:22.400 ⇒ 00:55:25.230 Demilade Agboola: The processes that, you know, we can undertake.
418 00:55:26.730 ⇒ 00:55:28.919 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, so I owe that to you.
419 00:55:29.870 ⇒ 00:55:33.520 Uttam Kumaran: We’re… let’s see, we have a couple people that are making it to the finals, so…
420 00:55:33.690 ⇒ 00:55:37.330 Uttam Kumaran: I’m confident. And then, yeah, I mean, Awash, I think Awash has…
421 00:55:37.510 ⇒ 00:55:42.669 Uttam Kumaran: sort of part of Mustafa’s time, Ashwini’s time, so… and then…
422 00:55:43.050 ⇒ 00:55:52.080 Uttam Kumaran: Sam and Jasmine run the, you know, the bigger team, so I’m looking… I think what would be helpful, you know, and Jasmine hasn’t joined yet, but for you guys to sort of, like.
423 00:55:52.310 ⇒ 00:56:02.390 Uttam Kumaran: if you guys say you have, like, if your teams have the most resources, what I would… what I’m looking for is, like, okay, how does… how does… how do we get your service lines running
424 00:56:02.620 ⇒ 00:56:09.619 Uttam Kumaran: To the point where they’re running well, so that you can now focus on playbook development, right? So think about, like, Maslow’s hierarchy, like.
425 00:56:09.900 ⇒ 00:56:17.099 Uttam Kumaran: Ensuring that at any moment you know where the risks are, or if that risks do come up, you have a path towards escalating, it’s the first thing to solve.
426 00:56:17.720 ⇒ 00:56:20.959 Uttam Kumaran: is to ensure that any CSO that’s selling your service is, like.
427 00:56:21.230 ⇒ 00:56:25.009 Uttam Kumaran: the ICs on my team are doing well, I feel the tasks are clear.
428 00:56:25.260 ⇒ 00:56:28.629 Uttam Kumaran: And then, that way, you can take all the remaining time and work on
429 00:56:28.990 ⇒ 00:56:36.279 Uttam Kumaran: playbooks and offers, you know, like, or new service development. Yeah, that’d be great.
430 00:56:42.300 ⇒ 00:56:48.849 Samuel Roberts: I gotta run, I’m way over and gotta go leave the babysitter, but I have a couple other little things, but we can… when we talk tomorrow, I’ll…
431 00:56:48.850 ⇒ 00:56:50.190 Uttam Kumaran: Okay, okay, okay, okay, perfect.
432 00:56:50.190 ⇒ 00:56:51.990 Samuel Roberts: then, but… Cool.
433 00:56:52.410 ⇒ 00:56:53.300 Samuel Roberts: Thanks, Alan.
434 00:56:53.930 ⇒ 00:56:54.500 Uttam Kumaran: Thank you.