Meeting Title: CSO <> SL Standups Date: 2026-03-20 Meeting participants: Pranav, Greg Stoutenburg, Zoran Selinger, Brylle Girang, Uttam Kumaran, Demilade Agboola
WEBVTT
1 00:00:35.280 ⇒ 00:00:36.330 Greg Stoutenburg: There we go.
2 00:01:11.410 ⇒ 00:01:13.189 Brylle Girang: Hey guys. Good morning.
3 00:01:13.350 ⇒ 00:01:14.400 Uttam Kumaran: It’d be a good morning.
4 00:01:15.650 ⇒ 00:01:16.299 Greg Stoutenburg: Did Domp.
5 00:01:16.300 ⇒ 00:01:17.619 Zoran Selinger: Guys, can you hear me?
6 00:01:17.990 ⇒ 00:01:19.720 Zoran Selinger: I’m in a car, I’m just checking.
7 00:01:20.260 ⇒ 00:01:20.720 Uttam Kumaran: Yes.
8 00:01:20.720 ⇒ 00:01:21.250 Brylle Girang: Yep.
9 00:01:21.560 ⇒ 00:01:22.080 Zoran Selinger: Okay.
10 00:01:22.380 ⇒ 00:01:23.500 Zoran Selinger: Good, good.
11 00:01:29.070 ⇒ 00:01:32.080 Uttam Kumaran: Okay…
12 00:01:32.950 ⇒ 00:01:39.190 Uttam Kumaran: Let’s get started. I think maybe, like, we can go a little bit around the horn. I think,
13 00:01:39.690 ⇒ 00:01:46.729 Uttam Kumaran: Yesterday, I feel like we had pretty good marching orders for next steps on default.
14 00:01:46.990 ⇒ 00:01:55.880 Uttam Kumaran: So I think, Greg, one piece there is… I sort of am, like, trying to work on some system that can sort of, like.
15 00:01:56.390 ⇒ 00:02:03.449 Uttam Kumaran: basically try to propose tickets based on meetings, but really, I think where I could use your help is, like.
16 00:02:03.640 ⇒ 00:02:19.830 Uttam Kumaran: B, propose, like, what some of the new tickets could be. If you could confirm some of those, and, like, get that into linear, and then we can basically start to continue to push things out. I think this is a client where I’m like, tell… give me a sense for, like.
17 00:02:20.050 ⇒ 00:02:23.460 Uttam Kumaran: what the rhythm… You want is here.
18 00:02:23.600 ⇒ 00:02:30.290 Uttam Kumaran: Like, I think we did a good job yesterday, like, sharing the dashboards, confirming, like, next steps.
19 00:02:30.450 ⇒ 00:02:35.529 Uttam Kumaran: So I think I kind of want to give it back to you to just make sure to drive some of those
20 00:02:35.960 ⇒ 00:02:41.579 Uttam Kumaran: Like, outcomes, and like, but you just tell me, like, how do you want to kind of pair on this?
21 00:02:41.730 ⇒ 00:03:01.359 Greg Stoutenburg: Yeah, yeah, no, that sounds good. And I, in an exchange with Bea yesterday, I said I’ll make sure that the linear is updated by end of week. Cool. As far as, yeah, as far as pace for them, I mean, I’d like to run at the, you know, sort of basically the same structure as, as Element, which is just have a roadmap that’s in linear, that we’re following,
22 00:03:01.360 ⇒ 00:03:15.079 Greg Stoutenburg: for changes for, like, the way that we communicate as a team, for default, I’ll want to do more regular check-ins. I’ll… I’m gonna write this up and propose it, but… Okay. Just, like, do more regular syncs that are just really brief, and…
23 00:03:15.160 ⇒ 00:03:34.450 Greg Stoutenburg: as far as communicating with the client, just get more communication in there so that they see that we’re regularly delivering work for them that they’ve asked for, and that we’re sort of leading the way as far as, as far as our data work. So… Okay. Yeah, those are some things that I, you know, I have in my mind, and I’m just going to give some shape to.
24 00:03:34.450 ⇒ 00:03:36.400 Greg Stoutenburg: So that’s to come.
25 00:03:37.100 ⇒ 00:03:38.840 Uttam Kumaran: Okay, cool. I think,
26 00:03:39.280 ⇒ 00:03:46.179 Uttam Kumaran: I think probably after next week, we’ll have a little bit more clarity about, like, how the SL work is gonna…
27 00:03:46.310 ⇒ 00:03:53.339 Uttam Kumaran: land, but I think for now, you can just consider me, like, I’ll… I’ll give you some of, like, the technical requirements.
28 00:03:53.580 ⇒ 00:04:11.639 Uttam Kumaran: And kind of be your technical counterpart on… on default, like, just… one is, like, what is in the tickets, and then, like, maybe who’s assigned, and then we can work together on, like, due dates and pacing. So one thing that could be helpful is, like, if you’re able to get the initiatives
29 00:04:11.730 ⇒ 00:04:22.980 Uttam Kumaran: And, like, if you’re able to get the initiatives and, like, milestones ready, I can help you fill in the tickets and sort of map it into there. I think that’s a good, like, separation. Yeah.
30 00:04:27.480 ⇒ 00:04:35.449 Uttam Kumaran: That way you’re not, like, oh, I don’t know when this data model can get out, or the sequencing, like, I’ll… I can handle that, and then really just, like.
31 00:04:35.580 ⇒ 00:04:39.190 Uttam Kumaran: Slotted in, to the right spot, so…
32 00:04:39.770 ⇒ 00:04:43.919 Greg Stoutenburg: Okay, that sounds good.
33 00:04:45.200 ⇒ 00:04:50.560 Greg Stoutenburg: Are we continuing to put instigants in front of clients, or are we switching that to linear, and just a sort of…
34 00:04:50.560 ⇒ 00:04:55.890 Uttam Kumaran: I would like to switch to linear, like, as soon as we can.
35 00:04:56.080 ⇒ 00:05:02.000 Uttam Kumaran: So I think that’s something that we wanted to get done this week, but, like, I will probably just try to do it over the weekend.
36 00:05:02.220 ⇒ 00:05:08.870 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I mean, I think, like, to give everybody context, like, We presented the…
37 00:05:09.010 ⇒ 00:05:13.829 Uttam Kumaran: we presented Element like a Gantt chart that was in linear, and it was pretty…
38 00:05:14.020 ⇒ 00:05:18.909 Uttam Kumaran: like, fine. And the nice thing about linear is that,
39 00:05:19.300 ⇒ 00:05:27.420 Uttam Kumaran: The nice thing about it is that you could just… all the tickets ladder up, and it ladder up the milestones, it’s all, like, programmatic, meaning you can see it all through, like.
40 00:05:27.910 ⇒ 00:05:37.240 Uttam Kumaran: You can basically see it all through Cursor, or any sort of AI that you’re using. So if I was to share with you guys, like, what this looks like.
41 00:05:37.490 ⇒ 00:05:39.150 Uttam Kumaran: for Element,
42 00:05:42.730 ⇒ 00:05:52.290 Uttam Kumaran: So, like, we have a couple of initiatives, like Omni, data modeling, reporting and analytics. As you can see, there are, like, projects in here.
43 00:05:52.440 ⇒ 00:05:54.820 Uttam Kumaran: So I can click on a single project.
44 00:05:54.940 ⇒ 00:05:57.710 Uttam Kumaran: And kind of see a little bit about, like, what it is.
45 00:05:57.930 ⇒ 00:06:03.890 Uttam Kumaran: I like it because, like, there’s status update, there’s milestones, and then you can go into…
46 00:06:04.120 ⇒ 00:06:06.929 Uttam Kumaran: It, and see, like, all the issues associated.
47 00:06:07.130 ⇒ 00:06:10.160 Uttam Kumaran: I think for, like.
48 00:06:10.430 ⇒ 00:06:16.419 Uttam Kumaran: for Zoran, for Pranav, for Greg, like, it’s just gonna take a little bit of, like, getting used to, but I think…
49 00:06:16.690 ⇒ 00:06:27.809 Uttam Kumaran: hopefully this, like… I’m, like, nixing another tool for you to have to think about, and it’s really… it’s really easy for you to use AI to be like, okay, like, let me make sure that
50 00:06:28.090 ⇒ 00:06:36.429 Uttam Kumaran: My initiatives are set up properly, my… like, the project’s set up properly, and then each of the issues within them, you know, are accurate.
51 00:06:36.600 ⇒ 00:06:44.500 Uttam Kumaran: And so I… I feel like this is, this is gonna be… the solution.
52 00:06:44.950 ⇒ 00:06:51.750 Uttam Kumaran: like, any… pushback or thoughts, like, Instagant, I think, is, like.
53 00:06:52.130 ⇒ 00:07:00.020 Uttam Kumaran: It’s… it’s a… it’s, like, a nicer visual, but it’s, like, so annoying to… to use, and
54 00:07:00.210 ⇒ 00:07:04.070 Uttam Kumaran: it’s, like, extremely… it’s, like, impossible to use with anything AI.
55 00:07:04.200 ⇒ 00:07:05.270 Uttam Kumaran: So…
56 00:07:05.440 ⇒ 00:07:18.369 Uttam Kumaran: I’m trying… I feel like streamlining like this is gonna allow you to actually keep a project on track, and then things like, hey, is this project off track? What are some milestones that need to get readjusted? You can do a lot of that in here.
57 00:07:18.560 ⇒ 00:07:24.590 Uttam Kumaran: Right, so if you take a look at this wholesale data mart, you can see that, like, some of these I’m still, like, backfilling.
58 00:07:24.740 ⇒ 00:07:27.799 Uttam Kumaran: But, like, for example, you can see, like, okay, this milestone…
59 00:07:27.950 ⇒ 00:07:33.439 Uttam Kumaran: looks like it should have been done in January 21st, and then… but there’s, like.
60 00:07:33.600 ⇒ 00:07:40.370 Uttam Kumaran: There’s no tickets associated with it, but this wholesale dashboard, there’s some… probably some tickets or something in progress.
61 00:07:41.890 ⇒ 00:07:48.310 Uttam Kumaran: And so we’re gonna be running with this for Element. I would like us, as much as possible, to transition to this.
62 00:07:49.020 ⇒ 00:07:53.139 Uttam Kumaran: For… For as many clients as we can.
63 00:07:56.790 ⇒ 00:08:05.549 Pranav: how I kind of see this working, if I’m understanding this correctly, like, for, like, ABC, like, maybe Sam will kind of…
64 00:08:06.070 ⇒ 00:08:26.069 Pranav: Actually, I’m not exactly sure where Sam would fit in, in terms of, like, would he like the view of the tickets more, but I think, as a CSO, I would look at this view most of the time. Like, project level, but then also the individual milestone level, that’s kind of how I’m gonna be tracking the project. Yeah. And then when I see things go in the red, then I can look at the individual tickets.
65 00:08:26.140 ⇒ 00:08:30.860 Pranav: Yeah, okay. I was just, like, talking out loud to understand if I’m thinking.
66 00:08:30.860 ⇒ 00:08:37.289 Uttam Kumaran: No, no, no, that’s… yeah, I think I want to share, sort of… let me just try to pull something up so I can share with you guys.
67 00:08:37.650 ⇒ 00:08:40.219 Uttam Kumaran: how I’m thinking about this,
68 00:08:40.669 ⇒ 00:08:42.209 Uttam Kumaran: See if I can find it…
69 00:08:51.740 ⇒ 00:08:55.090 Uttam Kumaran: I… I kind of created a little bit of a visual
70 00:09:27.530 ⇒ 00:09:28.280 Uttam Kumaran: Okay.
71 00:09:29.870 ⇒ 00:09:34.119 Uttam Kumaran: I should have shared this broadly when I did it, but I was like, it wasn’t ready yet.
72 00:09:34.530 ⇒ 00:09:35.500 Uttam Kumaran: And then I…
73 00:09:36.220 ⇒ 00:09:42.280 Uttam Kumaran: And that was, like, last week, but basically, I think I was mentioning that I’m working on, sort of, like.
74 00:09:42.410 ⇒ 00:09:53.039 Uttam Kumaran: reusable, epic plan. I’ll start using, like, everything linear terminology. But basically, like, this is the taxonomy. So you go from…
75 00:09:53.400 ⇒ 00:10:02.409 Uttam Kumaran: like, go to… like, there’s… we have these sort of teams, domains, you have these kind of artifacts, and really, like, one thing I wanted to share
76 00:10:02.980 ⇒ 00:10:07.460 Uttam Kumaran: Was for the delivery team in particular,
77 00:10:09.130 ⇒ 00:10:17.480 Uttam Kumaran: we have this sort of, like, atomic chain. So it’s from service line, to subservice, to offering to phase, deliverable, ticket.
78 00:10:17.610 ⇒ 00:10:25.880 Uttam Kumaran: Right? And so… part of this is actually helpful so that you can go from a baked SOW
79 00:10:26.290 ⇒ 00:10:28.699 Uttam Kumaran: To, like, the initiatives.
80 00:10:29.170 ⇒ 00:10:42.280 Uttam Kumaran: and then also to the projects in them, and then to the tickets in them. Where the… and I wanted to produce, like, a little bit of visual, but where the services are gonna cut is gonna be across multiple clients.
81 00:10:42.520 ⇒ 00:10:53.040 Uttam Kumaran: And the way we’re gonna handle that is probably through… through labels. Either through labels, or I’m gonna create, our projects will be associated with…
82 00:10:53.410 ⇒ 00:11:13.020 Uttam Kumaran: other service initiatives. For example, you could see that, like, one project for ABC might include, like, things from data, things from AI, things from strategy. The service leader for that group is going to be, like, responsible for, like, any ticket that comes out of that service.
83 00:11:13.110 ⇒ 00:11:14.890 Uttam Kumaran: Right?
84 00:11:15.200 ⇒ 00:11:32.530 Uttam Kumaran: I think what this is gonna mean is, like, for default, right, we have work on the strategy service line, and we have work primarily on the analytics engineering service line, which means, like, as a CSO, you’re partnering or proposing to the… or asking the service leader to say, hey.
85 00:11:32.530 ⇒ 00:11:40.180 Uttam Kumaran: we haven’t asked to model, like, these 5 things. Can you help me ticket it out with phases and put it into projects?
86 00:11:40.190 ⇒ 00:11:44.910 Uttam Kumaran: But the CSO is the one who’s in charge of milestones and initiatives.
87 00:11:45.140 ⇒ 00:12:02.890 Uttam Kumaran: Because ultimately, the service lead is gonna… is really the one that’s holding the fact that, like, anything that comes out of that service is, like, super quality. Think about, like, putting a car together. And I think, like, I think a lot about, like, a Tesla factory. There’s… there’s someone who… their whole job is, like.
88 00:12:02.910 ⇒ 00:12:03.960 Uttam Kumaran: the frunk.
89 00:12:03.970 ⇒ 00:12:18.640 Uttam Kumaran: And, like, making sure that that thing is, like, working on every car, right? But there’s also someone that’s like, get these cars with all these parts off the line, right? So you have services that care about one part of the fully baked pie.
90 00:12:18.640 ⇒ 00:12:30.900 Uttam Kumaran: And then you have some people that are… that care only about the pie, and they may not have the depth into every single piece. And so that’s, like, the separation of concerns. And so that’s why yesterday, Pranav, you were asking, like, okay, where does Sam fit in?
91 00:12:31.140 ⇒ 00:12:39.809 Uttam Kumaran: And, like, where Sam and Demi and Zoran are gonna fit more in is in owning the service line across all clients that
92 00:12:39.910 ⇒ 00:12:46.389 Uttam Kumaran: pull from that service. But the CSO is still gonna be like, yo, we need to get this fully baked.
93 00:12:46.640 ⇒ 00:12:56.980 Uttam Kumaran: thing out the door, right? We have objectives we’re trying to hit. You may pull something from one service, one service, one service, to get a job done.
94 00:12:57.170 ⇒ 00:13:02.679 Uttam Kumaran: And so the way this is gonna work, is, like, You’re basically gonna have, like.
95 00:13:03.330 ⇒ 00:13:16.300 Uttam Kumaran: we’re gonna have some more, like, off-the-shelf things to pull from, but I think this is a good way of kind of thinking about it, which is, I want the CSOs to own the initiative.
96 00:13:16.600 ⇒ 00:13:18.629 Uttam Kumaran: And then also to…
97 00:13:18.740 ⇒ 00:13:34.169 Uttam Kumaran: To collaborate and, like, probably drive the projects, or that’s probably the place where you collaborate with the service leader, and then the service lead should be the one giving you, like, technical milestones, technical risks.
98 00:13:34.420 ⇒ 00:13:39.839 Uttam Kumaran: Timeline, and then that… and then you drag that back up into, like, okay, can we deliver this, you know?
99 00:13:43.320 ⇒ 00:13:47.100 Pranav: I have a question on, like, order of operations. Yeah.
100 00:13:47.380 ⇒ 00:13:53.210 Pranav: Do we want to create the milestones before we get the full technical implementation?
101 00:13:55.380 ⇒ 00:13:57.369 Uttam Kumaran: I would say…
102 00:13:57.660 ⇒ 00:14:04.630 Uttam Kumaran: So this is where, like, I’m taking… I’m gonna take… pick on the ABC and the Eden things, because that’s just top of mind.
103 00:14:04.790 ⇒ 00:14:05.580 Pranav: Yeah.
104 00:14:05.580 ⇒ 00:14:12.160 Uttam Kumaran: That’s why for ABC, I think you have to drive, ultimately, the first pass at some of those.
105 00:14:12.350 ⇒ 00:14:19.000 Uttam Kumaran: Okay. Right? Like, I think you are the voice of the customer, which is, like, customer wants these two big projects.
106 00:14:20.190 ⇒ 00:14:22.520 Uttam Kumaran: We would like to deliver by this time.
107 00:14:23.630 ⇒ 00:14:29.449 Uttam Kumaran: The technology team and the service team needs to also look at that and say, okay.
108 00:14:30.230 ⇒ 00:14:33.970 Uttam Kumaran: Can we devise a solution in order to achieve that?
109 00:14:34.110 ⇒ 00:14:35.190 Uttam Kumaran: But I think…
110 00:14:35.350 ⇒ 00:14:44.720 Uttam Kumaran: Too much collaboration is gonna cause… is gonna cause… like, one party cares about accuracy and is gonna get judged on
111 00:14:44.800 ⇒ 00:14:55.669 Uttam Kumaran: whether their forecast on, on, on, effort was right. One team cares about, like, output and, like, delivering, right? And delivering margin.
112 00:14:55.810 ⇒ 00:15:01.750 Uttam Kumaran: And so, I… I would say, if I was in your shoes, like.
113 00:15:02.010 ⇒ 00:15:14.090 Uttam Kumaran: the fun thing about our jobs is we’re all also pretty technical. So, it’s not like you don’t know anything about AI, you’re, like, completely relying on Sam. So, my thought is, like, propose the first draft.
114 00:15:14.320 ⇒ 00:15:18.509 Uttam Kumaran: And sales is also gonna sell it without this, like, whole plan.
115 00:15:18.950 ⇒ 00:15:19.280 Pranav: Right.
116 00:15:19.280 ⇒ 00:15:19.910 Uttam Kumaran: So…
117 00:15:20.390 ⇒ 00:15:33.549 Uttam Kumaran: I think you just have to have a really tight relationship with, like, service leads, and indicate to them exactly, like, what you need, or what level of fidelity you need at the time you need it. Like, if you’re in a sales conversation.
118 00:15:33.660 ⇒ 00:15:37.789 Uttam Kumaran: Dude, we don’t need tickets, we don’t need, like, all that. We need, like…
119 00:15:38.440 ⇒ 00:15:41.910 Uttam Kumaran: Can we… do we feel like we can accomplish these big rocks?
120 00:15:42.090 ⇒ 00:15:50.160 Uttam Kumaran: Yes or no. And it’ll be your job to, like, pull the service lead to give you, like, a confident, like, okay, I’m pretty sure we could do that, right?
121 00:15:51.050 ⇒ 00:15:53.100 Uttam Kumaran: As soon as the deal is closed.
122 00:15:53.220 ⇒ 00:15:56.559 Uttam Kumaran: That it is time to work at this level of detail.
123 00:15:57.070 ⇒ 00:16:00.400 Uttam Kumaran: So, you have, okay, we have these milestones.
124 00:16:00.620 ⇒ 00:16:04.179 Uttam Kumaran: Here are the projects associated within those.
125 00:16:04.660 ⇒ 00:16:08.180 Uttam Kumaran: And then here are the tickets that need to ladder up.
126 00:16:08.370 ⇒ 00:16:09.150 Uttam Kumaran: You know?
127 00:16:09.940 ⇒ 00:16:13.760 Uttam Kumaran: And the tickets, who’s assigned?
128 00:16:13.940 ⇒ 00:16:15.130 Uttam Kumaran: the points…
129 00:16:15.330 ⇒ 00:16:22.720 Uttam Kumaran: And then getting feedback on the milestones is… and the… is really what you’re asking for the SL.
130 00:16:23.440 ⇒ 00:16:24.560 Uttam Kumaran: That’s why…
131 00:16:24.820 ⇒ 00:16:32.859 Uttam Kumaran: like, the Eden… like, that Eden dock being separate, like, it needs to be one dock, because for… at my level, for me, I’m looking to see everything.
132 00:16:33.010 ⇒ 00:16:40.699 Uttam Kumaran: like, I want to see what we’re promising them on what timeline, so then I can be like, okay, like, I get the business case.
133 00:16:41.070 ⇒ 00:17:00.569 Uttam Kumaran: we feel strongly that if we were to go a month later, like, we’re delivering real alpha. So that’s one thing I’m looking at. The second piece I’m looking at is, like, okay, how are we gonna get there? And so that’s why when it was, like, this many hours, I was like, okay, let me look into, like, technically why, and I’m like, okay, this seems, like, shaky.
134 00:17:01.070 ⇒ 00:17:11.399 Uttam Kumaran: Right? And this is where I think on the… on the Andy plan, I don’t think you were able, on the data thing, to consult with any SL, right? And I think for…
135 00:17:11.609 ⇒ 00:17:19.960 Uttam Kumaran: some of the AI piece, this is where I would push back on Sam, is that I don’t think Sam thought hard about, can we get this done any faster?
136 00:17:20.119 ⇒ 00:17:33.769 Uttam Kumaran: So one thing that maybe could be helpful, too, is, like, for every milestone, we indicate, like, who is the SL that is, like, signing off on the technical requirements. Like, I don’t think anybody helped you with the real stuff.
137 00:17:34.140 ⇒ 00:17:40.010 Uttam Kumaran: And Amber is not, like, a good… Amber… Amber should not be helping you with that. So, in that sense, like.
138 00:17:40.300 ⇒ 00:17:44.970 Uttam Kumaran: That real stuff is a strategy like, service?
139 00:17:45.480 ⇒ 00:17:45.890 Pranav: Gotcha.
140 00:17:45.890 ⇒ 00:17:53.319 Uttam Kumaran: But, like, right now, Robert is that, and so consider, like, de facto, like, nobody’s that. So, that’s where I can plug in.
141 00:17:53.470 ⇒ 00:17:58.500 Uttam Kumaran: And I think my… my thing yesterday was I just kind of bluntly was like.
142 00:17:59.330 ⇒ 00:18:04.740 Uttam Kumaran: wow, what the hell, this is, like, this shouldn’t be this long, and instead, I should’ve processed that, like.
143 00:18:04.850 ⇒ 00:18:08.050 Uttam Kumaran: You just were… you were filling in for both.
144 00:18:08.180 ⇒ 00:18:08.880 Uttam Kumaran: Right?
145 00:18:11.210 ⇒ 00:18:20.770 Uttam Kumaran: So that’s… that’s sort of, like, how I’m thinking about the relationship. I’m, like, working… trying to find some time to work on codifying this really, really well.
146 00:18:21.160 ⇒ 00:18:23.059 Uttam Kumaran: But that’s how I’m thinking about it.
147 00:18:23.230 ⇒ 00:18:26.250 Uttam Kumaran: I’m kind of curious if anyone has any thoughts.
148 00:18:29.890 ⇒ 00:18:41.230 Demilade Agboola: I think my question will be in more, like, I understand that we can sit down and plan and come up with this as a team. I think my question will be in calls with
149 00:18:41.370 ⇒ 00:18:48.320 Demilade Agboola: A client or a stakeholder who wants, like, immediate response, who’s just like, hey, maybe, you know.
150 00:18:48.490 ⇒ 00:18:53.610 Demilade Agboola: They have a call with a stakeholder, and they’re trying to get a definite date.
151 00:18:53.880 ⇒ 00:19:01.339 Demilade Agboola: So it’s like, hey, can we get this done by end of week? And, you know, Greg or Pranav has to commit to that.
152 00:19:01.460 ⇒ 00:19:14.369 Demilade Agboola: should it be a thing of, like, because they seem really urgent about it, should it be a thing of, like, hey, can I get back to you in the next, like, hour or two? Or should it just be a thing of, like, okay, yeah, I’ll talk to the team, and we’ll try and get it out by end of week?
153 00:19:14.840 ⇒ 00:19:30.270 Uttam Kumaran: The former, the former. But this is where, like, I think… but it’s also where I’ll push back on, like, that doesn’t need to be… you’re exactly right, it doesn’t need to be a meeting. It could be like, hey, client wants… it’s like, Demi, how I came to you and was like, hey, can we knock this dashboard out? Like…
154 00:19:30.400 ⇒ 00:19:38.619 Uttam Kumaran: what’s taking so long? You’re like, yeah, the model’s already ready, and I’m like, okay, so, like, let’s just put pressure on the dashboarding side or move people. That’s it.
155 00:19:39.210 ⇒ 00:19:43.289 Uttam Kumaran: that’s the conversation, right? And I think similarly for Pranav.
156 00:19:43.450 ⇒ 00:19:54.609 Uttam Kumaran: you can actually make it really easy for the strategy service people. They don’t need to see anything else about Andy. All they need to know is, like, yo, we have some transcript data, like, here’s the shape of that data.
157 00:19:55.350 ⇒ 00:19:58.490 Uttam Kumaran: Give me some requirements that we can help build.
158 00:19:58.750 ⇒ 00:20:06.779 Uttam Kumaran: And, like, or here’s, like, kind of some of my ideas, give me a timeline, you know? And I think that’s a good way of… for that relationship to work.
159 00:20:07.060 ⇒ 00:20:20.309 Uttam Kumaran: what’s gonna happen is, like, if you… if you… only, I think, me and the CSO need to see the entirety of the plan, because ultimately, you’re on the hook, and then above you, I’m on the hook.
160 00:20:20.700 ⇒ 00:20:31.739 Uttam Kumaran: But the service leads, their job is gonna be quality and adhering to the timeline they said, which means they’re gonna push another way, which is towards accurate timelines.
161 00:20:31.930 ⇒ 00:20:40.219 Uttam Kumaran: And they may… they may say, like, this timeline is, like, way too fast. Like, I think Demi gave me some good feedback that we do over-promise.
162 00:20:40.220 ⇒ 00:20:52.020 Uttam Kumaran: That’s because, like, all of our engagements are sales-led. There isn’t, like, a balance, typically, on the other side, right? I think we’ve done good because a lot of us are technical, so it could be… it’s typically way worse than this.
163 00:20:52.020 ⇒ 00:20:57.289 Uttam Kumaran: Like, think about a consulting company with… where this call is, like, mostly non-technical people.
164 00:20:57.550 ⇒ 00:21:13.700 Uttam Kumaran: And they’re just throwing random fucking, like, timelines out. That’s, like, most of consulting. So that’s why I felt like, okay, even though I don’t think we’re hit every timeline, we’re all technical, so we all have, like, an edge of, like, let’s be fair.
165 00:21:13.880 ⇒ 00:21:19.310 Uttam Kumaran: But I think we need even more of that, so that we… you can… you can communicate concretely.
166 00:21:19.420 ⇒ 00:21:22.309 Uttam Kumaran: Because one thing we don’t do well is, like, we hedge a lot.
167 00:21:22.490 ⇒ 00:21:36.600 Uttam Kumaran: Right? We say, like, we think it’s gonna come out, or we don’t commit, because we’re not sure. And so I’m hopeful that this dual relationship allows the CSO to be, like, really sure, and then always look back at the plan.
168 00:21:37.120 ⇒ 00:21:44.139 Uttam Kumaran: You know, and always reference, hey, we put this plan, here’s where you are relative to the plan, and you’re… you don’t feel, like, alone that, like.
169 00:21:44.500 ⇒ 00:21:56.919 Uttam Kumaran: Right? So you now have 3 parties that sort of signed off, and I think that’s sort of what we’ll drive towards, is there’s a CSO sign-off, there’s an SL sign-off, there’s a me sign-off, and then there’s, like, a client sign-off.
170 00:21:57.210 ⇒ 00:22:02.240 Uttam Kumaran: Right? Then, yes, things will not go according to plan, but then you can pinpoint
171 00:22:02.590 ⇒ 00:22:10.159 Uttam Kumaran: What happened? Okay, did we overestimate? Or did we always overestimate? Okay, the client asked for something new. Okay, like, we signed off on this plan.
172 00:22:11.280 ⇒ 00:22:18.570 Uttam Kumaran: that’s, I think, the part of this project plan that we consistently, I don’t think, do well, that I want to try to change, you know?
173 00:22:22.460 ⇒ 00:22:25.949 Pranav: I kinda wanna, if we have, like, a little bit of time, just, like.
174 00:22:26.020 ⇒ 00:22:44.830 Pranav: kind of go over high level, maybe, like, 5 minutes, just how I thought about just clearly… because I restructured the April-May roadmap for Andy. Yeah. And I feel like I did it in a process where it made a lot more sense. I didn’t get kind of, like, lost, which I think I did in the first one. Okay. And so, yeah, I started off with just kind of…
175 00:22:45.080 ⇒ 00:22:48.590 Pranav: what I would say… and I kind of wore both hats again here.
176 00:22:48.590 ⇒ 00:22:49.150 Uttam Kumaran: Okay.
177 00:22:49.150 ⇒ 00:22:52.480 Pranav: But yeah, this is perfect. So, yeah, I started off with that,
178 00:22:52.840 ⇒ 00:22:57.360 Pranav: Individually on the projects, and then this is unique, because we were combining two projects, right?
179 00:22:57.610 ⇒ 00:22:58.060 Uttam Kumaran: Yes.
180 00:22:58.060 ⇒ 00:23:13.409 Pranav: But let’s just start with Central Doc. So what I started off with was just the target process. And so this is kind of what the client wants. I think this is kind of when I’m wearing the CSL hat. And then I think with, like, what you were saying just now, it’s like, okay, that’s when I hand it off to the SL.
181 00:23:13.610 ⇒ 00:23:18.140 Pranav: To then give me a technical approach, and then maybe development milestones.
182 00:23:18.730 ⇒ 00:23:19.869 Pranav: Does that sound right?
183 00:23:20.690 ⇒ 00:23:25.440 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, and I actually think you’re doing the SL, like, such a favor here.
184 00:23:25.840 ⇒ 00:23:28.759 Uttam Kumaran: like, I don’t… I… this is where, like, I think…
185 00:23:29.000 ⇒ 00:23:34.090 Uttam Kumaran: Demi, for you and for Zoran, you guys may not get this level of detail.
186 00:23:34.690 ⇒ 00:23:39.560 Uttam Kumaran: from, like, a CSO, you may get, like, We want this dashboard out.
187 00:23:39.910 ⇒ 00:23:48.640 Uttam Kumaran: But, like, this is… this is, like, lovely, dude. Like, I think even just, like, scanning through this, it’s so easy for me to, like.
188 00:23:49.160 ⇒ 00:23:59.640 Uttam Kumaran: Look at, like, what it is we’re… what it is we’re selling to them, and, like, what it is we’re… they’re getting, and then, like, how… how they’re doing it.
189 00:23:59.920 ⇒ 00:24:01.879 Uttam Kumaran: And then for me to be like, is…
190 00:24:02.170 ⇒ 00:24:09.190 Uttam Kumaran: is our… is our milestones too aggressive, or is the deliverable not clear? Okay, that’s, like, for now. Or, like.
191 00:24:09.560 ⇒ 00:24:20.020 Uttam Kumaran: Am I unclear about why we’re making the technical decisions we’re doing? Am I unclear on, like, why something should take this long? So that’s Sam, right? So, for me, like, I look at it from…
192 00:24:20.290 ⇒ 00:24:26.230 Uttam Kumaran: from both the lenses, and I scan, and I just have to see everything, you know? But this is helpful.
193 00:24:26.800 ⇒ 00:24:36.520 Pranav: Okay, so one thing that I’m still a little bit confused on is, like, with the development milestones, that seems like it’s, that’s wearing the SL hat.
194 00:24:36.630 ⇒ 00:24:45.739 Pranav: You’re kind of… because right after that, you’re just breaking things up into tickets. But then there’s this thing, I just kind of made up a word for, like, checkpoint, which is.
195 00:24:45.740 ⇒ 00:24:46.140 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
196 00:24:46.140 ⇒ 00:24:59.960 Pranav: This is business-facing, and so what it’s usually, probably in the best-case scenario, is just a consolidation of some of the technical milestones, or maybe just it’s one-to-one of the milestones, but.
197 00:25:00.210 ⇒ 00:25:01.900 Uttam Kumaran: This is one-to-one milestones.
198 00:25:03.010 ⇒ 00:25:07.589 Pranav: one-to-one? Okay. Yeah. I didn’t do it one-to-one, I did it more kind of like…
199 00:25:07.770 ⇒ 00:25:12.010 Uttam Kumaran: But, like, I guess, like, you could have multiple milestones, like…
200 00:25:12.010 ⇒ 00:25:12.770 Pranav: Perfect.
201 00:25:12.770 ⇒ 00:25:16.219 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, meaning it doesn’t have to be one milestone for a project.
202 00:25:16.480 ⇒ 00:25:24.260 Uttam Kumaran: It doesn’t have to be, like, there’s… the milestone is just the, like, a date you’re setting for something, right?
203 00:25:24.260 ⇒ 00:25:28.000 Pranav: For… internally, like, we’re trying to, like, have this…
204 00:25:28.240 ⇒ 00:25:32.159 Pranav: like, technical implementation done by this time? Like, or is this something…
205 00:25:32.160 ⇒ 00:25:35.539 Uttam Kumaran: It’s up to you, internal versus external, but meaning, like.
206 00:25:35.540 ⇒ 00:25:36.060 Pranav: Yeah.
207 00:25:36.970 ⇒ 00:25:42.060 Uttam Kumaran: What you don’t want to do is have, like, a milestone every single day for a project like this, right?
208 00:25:42.220 ⇒ 00:25:47.180 Uttam Kumaran: But I do think that, like, a milestone of, like, pay by this Thursday.
209 00:25:47.290 ⇒ 00:25:49.920 Uttam Kumaran: I think one way of orienting it is…
210 00:25:51.310 ⇒ 00:25:53.810 Uttam Kumaran: I would… I would… I would say…
211 00:25:54.190 ⇒ 00:25:58.229 Uttam Kumaran: The preference should be milestones are, like, customer deliverables.
212 00:25:58.360 ⇒ 00:26:06.800 Uttam Kumaran: Because, ultimately, I think that’s what you’re gonna be judged on. Like, you’re not gonna be judged on if a migration happens or not. You’re gonna be judged on
213 00:26:06.900 ⇒ 00:26:08.920 Uttam Kumaran: if Andy hits the mark.
214 00:26:09.480 ⇒ 00:26:14.849 Uttam Kumaran: on Eden AI, for example, you’re going to be judged off if the capability lands in the customer’s hands.
215 00:26:15.330 ⇒ 00:26:22.300 Uttam Kumaran: whether the MCP gets done on time, that’s… you should just use the due dates on the tickets and stuff like that.
216 00:26:22.720 ⇒ 00:26:23.150 Pranav: Okay.
217 00:26:23.180 ⇒ 00:26:28.900 Uttam Kumaran: I don’t know, that’s my… that’s, like, my take. I’m… I’m happy to… I think I kinda did…
218 00:26:29.200 ⇒ 00:26:48.329 Pranav: I did both a little bit. I did, like, okay, we have these external checkpoints, and these aren’t going to be… maybe it’s another type of field that we put into linear, but then the table above is, like, the milestones that you would actually have. Like, when I’m using the same milestones, I’m, like, trying to use, like, linear terminology.
219 00:26:48.650 ⇒ 00:26:49.400 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
220 00:26:49.680 ⇒ 00:26:56.880 Pranav: And so, yeah, this is what I would def… like, these would be, like, the… the diamonds on the… on the Gantt chart. Okay.
221 00:26:57.310 ⇒ 00:27:01.009 Pranav: So… But yeah, I mean, this is one thing where I was like.
222 00:27:01.130 ⇒ 00:27:12.509 Pranav: It would be much simpler if it was just one-to-one, and then maybe we just have different headings or different titles for, like, what we mean internally versus, like, rephrasing it to, like, a…
223 00:27:12.750 ⇒ 00:27:15.370 Pranav: Okay. So when we’re having a client meeting.
224 00:27:15.530 ⇒ 00:27:15.920 Uttam Kumaran: Okay.
225 00:27:15.920 ⇒ 00:27:17.440 Pranav: But, yeah, we can maybe…
226 00:27:17.440 ⇒ 00:27:21.220 Uttam Kumaran: I actually am, like, really happy that you iterated
227 00:27:21.380 ⇒ 00:27:29.389 Uttam Kumaran: because I was gonna ship a version, but I actually, like… it’s really helpful to see, like, how you process the feedback, and…
228 00:27:29.530 ⇒ 00:27:31.439 Uttam Kumaran: Sort of modified this.
229 00:27:32.290 ⇒ 00:27:38.189 Uttam Kumaran: like, I actually… I think… I think what I can do is, like, for example.
230 00:27:38.620 ⇒ 00:27:42.319 Uttam Kumaran: if I was to look at this, a couple things I would say.
231 00:27:42.660 ⇒ 00:27:48.609 Uttam Kumaran: I think this is… Like, really clear in terms of, like, what is the… sorry, what is the, like.
232 00:27:49.320 ⇒ 00:27:52.839 Uttam Kumaran: What is the business outcome here? And, like, what are the…
233 00:27:53.410 ⇒ 00:27:57.550 Uttam Kumaran: What are the steps that we’re delivering on this project?
234 00:27:58.280 ⇒ 00:28:05.150 Uttam Kumaran: I would go to… I would say this is where I want much more depth from Sam.
235 00:28:05.610 ⇒ 00:28:06.470 Pranav: Right? Yeah.
236 00:28:06.470 ⇒ 00:28:23.450 Uttam Kumaran: Like, I want… I want to see the tools we’re using, why we’re using them, like, what are the, like, numbers that are… for example, accuracy should go from this to this, here’s how we’re… like, that’s all Sam, right? And I want to see that, and so I can put… I can put some pressure on that.
237 00:28:23.680 ⇒ 00:28:26.790 Uttam Kumaran: And then I think this is where…
238 00:28:26.920 ⇒ 00:28:31.200 Uttam Kumaran: this is sort of, like, I think once this is approved.
239 00:28:31.350 ⇒ 00:28:37.060 Uttam Kumaran: I think you can move towards… One… one milestones.
240 00:28:37.210 ⇒ 00:28:37.960 Uttam Kumaran: Staying.
241 00:28:38.280 ⇒ 00:28:40.849 Uttam Kumaran: Right? Okay. Like, one thing for…
242 00:28:41.530 ⇒ 00:28:46.949 Uttam Kumaran: the initiatives, the projects, the milestones. And then tickets, like, I frankly don’t…
243 00:28:47.120 ⇒ 00:28:54.170 Uttam Kumaran: care much about the tickets, like, at my level. I… because I will always hook back into, like.
244 00:28:54.370 ⇒ 00:28:57.519 Uttam Kumaran: Whether 100 tickets or 10 tickets, did we hit the checkpoint?
245 00:28:58.160 ⇒ 00:28:58.870 Pranav: Yep.
246 00:28:58.870 ⇒ 00:29:06.879 Uttam Kumaran: So, of course I care about tickets, I’ll look at the tickets, but, like, this… I want to share with you, like, I will go… what I’ll retain in my mind is that, okay, like.
247 00:29:07.020 ⇒ 00:29:11.919 Uttam Kumaran: April, we’re gonna get these couple things done. That’s what I want to cement.
248 00:29:14.730 ⇒ 00:29:16.999 Pranav: And so this can Consolidated, what you’re saying.
249 00:29:17.380 ⇒ 00:29:25.150 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, and I think you can determine whether it’s, like, a development milestone or a demo milestone, like, I…
250 00:29:25.310 ⇒ 00:29:29.060 Uttam Kumaran: like, that’s… I would say you have creative freedom on.
251 00:29:29.060 ⇒ 00:29:33.089 Pranav: Okay. Yeah, this is more so just kind of, like, maybe a slide, you know, like…
252 00:29:33.090 ⇒ 00:29:33.600 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
253 00:29:33.600 ⇒ 00:29:39.040 Pranav: You know, and if I’m presenting, maybe this is just the four checkpoints I would use, you know.
254 00:29:39.040 ⇒ 00:29:46.060 Uttam Kumaran: And, like, for this one, Right? So, for this one, I would, like, you need a technical
255 00:29:46.410 ⇒ 00:29:49.870 Uttam Kumaran: like, section, and so I can help fill that out.
256 00:29:50.170 ⇒ 00:29:53.720 Uttam Kumaran: But then what my… my caveat now is I would…
257 00:29:54.460 ⇒ 00:29:57.060 Uttam Kumaran: I would try to wait until you have
258 00:29:57.830 ⇒ 00:30:01.959 Uttam Kumaran: the… those tickets? Or wait until you have, like.
259 00:30:02.670 ⇒ 00:30:08.929 Uttam Kumaran: Maybe I should think about, like, maybe each of these is paired with, like, the technical approach.
260 00:30:09.330 ⇒ 00:30:12.340 Uttam Kumaran: I don’t know, like, in typical,
261 00:30:12.500 ⇒ 00:30:16.770 Uttam Kumaran: Product development, you have, like, a PRD, and then a technical design document.
262 00:30:17.670 ⇒ 00:30:22.439 Uttam Kumaran: I… I want to think about something where we can put, like, okay, this is a CSO, this is the…
263 00:30:22.570 ⇒ 00:30:24.670 Uttam Kumaran: SL, this is the section.
264 00:30:24.950 ⇒ 00:30:25.860 Uttam Kumaran: Yay. Right.
265 00:30:26.050 ⇒ 00:30:30.149 Uttam Kumaran: For example, this technical approach pulls from this service.
266 00:30:30.940 ⇒ 00:30:36.900 Uttam Kumaran: And here’s the commentary on, like, how it’s gonna get done, anything on the way we should structure things, architecture.
267 00:30:37.560 ⇒ 00:30:40.990 Uttam Kumaran: But I think this is a lot better, yeah.
268 00:30:42.280 ⇒ 00:30:42.950 Pranav: Cool.
269 00:30:46.650 ⇒ 00:30:51.490 Uttam Kumaran: Okay, I need to, I need to jump, but I think,
270 00:30:52.420 ⇒ 00:31:08.980 Uttam Kumaran: I hope this was a little bit helpful. I think, on Monday, I’ll share a little bit more thinking on the CSOSL and try to codify this. I know it’s, like, a lot of these norms are everywhere, and so I want to make it much more clear. I think that’s on me to do that.
271 00:31:09.230 ⇒ 00:31:15.669 Uttam Kumaran: And then today, I know you guys have an Eden kickoff for Eden AI. B, I don’t need to be on any of that stuff.
272 00:31:15.850 ⇒ 00:31:20.380 Uttam Kumaran: So I’m just floating… Above that project, somewhere.
273 00:31:20.610 ⇒ 00:31:26.569 Uttam Kumaran: But I do want… I do think Pranav… Do you think you can…
274 00:31:27.140 ⇒ 00:31:31.299 Uttam Kumaran: rip one of these and merge in Sam’s stuff.
275 00:31:32.190 ⇒ 00:31:34.099 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah. So, like, one of these for Eden AI?
276 00:31:34.100 ⇒ 00:31:34.680 Pranav: Yeah.
277 00:31:34.880 ⇒ 00:31:35.750 Pranav: Okay.
278 00:31:36.120 ⇒ 00:31:44.969 Uttam Kumaran: That would be helpful. And then, over the weekend, I’ll work on, like, a…
279 00:31:45.260 ⇒ 00:31:48.600 Uttam Kumaran: Template, like, doc for this, for this thing.
280 00:31:49.300 ⇒ 00:31:50.010 Pranav: Cool.
281 00:31:50.580 ⇒ 00:31:50.990 Uttam Kumaran: Okay.
282 00:31:50.990 ⇒ 00:31:56.670 Brylle Girang: Nav, do you feel comfortable, going to the AI kickoff call without an SL?
283 00:31:58.800 ⇒ 00:32:02.649 Pranav: Yeah, I think so.
284 00:32:02.650 ⇒ 00:32:03.280 Brylle Girang: Okay.
285 00:32:03.720 ⇒ 00:32:04.699 Pranav: Yeah, I don’t…
286 00:32:06.000 ⇒ 00:32:10.750 Uttam Kumaran: Well, if you produce that doc, I’ll give you, I’ll give you everything you need, and then you tell me if you want me to come.
287 00:32:11.360 ⇒ 00:32:12.610 Pranav: Right, yeah, okay.
288 00:32:12.610 ⇒ 00:32:13.550 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, okay.
289 00:32:14.030 ⇒ 00:32:14.710 Pranav: Sounds good.
290 00:32:15.180 ⇒ 00:32:15.750 Uttam Kumaran: Okay.
291 00:32:15.870 ⇒ 00:32:16.930 Uttam Kumaran: Thank you, guys.
292 00:32:17.690 ⇒ 00:32:18.060 Brylle Girang: Thank you.
293 00:32:18.060 ⇒ 00:32:18.480 Pranav: Thanks, guys.
294 00:32:18.480 ⇒ 00:32:19.120 Uttam Kumaran: Talk soon.