Meeting Title: Brainforge Project Management Standards Discussion Date: 2026-03-19 Meeting participants: Robert Tseng, Uttam Kumaran
WEBVTT
1 00:00:10.550 ⇒ 00:00:11.400 Robert Tseng: Hey.
2 00:00:13.490 ⇒ 00:00:14.499 Robert Tseng: Can you hear me?
3 00:00:18.690 ⇒ 00:00:19.880 Robert Tseng: Oh, wow.
4 00:00:21.310 ⇒ 00:00:22.740 Robert Tseng: There’s two of you.
5 00:00:30.390 ⇒ 00:00:31.850 Robert Tseng: Hello, hello, Dusty?
6 00:00:32.130 ⇒ 00:00:33.699 Robert Tseng: Okay. Oh, yeah, I hear you now, okay.
7 00:00:34.100 ⇒ 00:00:39.699 Uttam Kumaran: Dude, I don’t know, man. I’m trying to respect your no phone policy.
8 00:00:40.300 ⇒ 00:00:41.019 Robert Tseng: No, no.
9 00:00:42.160 ⇒ 00:00:43.859 Robert Tseng: I mean, I just…
10 00:00:43.860 ⇒ 00:00:45.130 Uttam Kumaran: No, that’s so convenient.
11 00:00:45.130 ⇒ 00:00:45.600 Robert Tseng: That was a little…
12 00:00:45.600 ⇒ 00:00:46.510 Uttam Kumaran: No, no, no.
13 00:00:46.510 ⇒ 00:00:48.180 Robert Tseng: My room to grab my phone.
14 00:00:48.180 ⇒ 00:00:50.710 Uttam Kumaran: I’m sorry, sorry.
15 00:00:50.840 ⇒ 00:00:54.389 Robert Tseng: I just can’t answer phone calls for my… from this computer.
16 00:00:54.390 ⇒ 00:00:58.700 Uttam Kumaran: That’s okay, that’s okay. Yeah, okay, so…
17 00:00:58.810 ⇒ 00:01:06.469 Uttam Kumaran: let me give you my thought, is that I think as we get bigger, like, as I think about… as clients have gone bigger, and maybe even…
18 00:01:06.650 ⇒ 00:01:13.760 Uttam Kumaran: Like, I think it fits the pattern, is that, like, actually, what they wanted is, and what we’ve lacked.
19 00:01:13.940 ⇒ 00:01:28.069 Uttam Kumaran: is more account management, is more project management, but not… and what we’ve done is not hire those people, and instead try to, like, frame some of these guys as that. I think…
20 00:01:28.070 ⇒ 00:01:28.600 Robert Tseng: Yeah.
21 00:01:28.970 ⇒ 00:01:33.320 Uttam Kumaran: like, I think… for Element, for sure, like…
22 00:01:34.930 ⇒ 00:01:44.350 Uttam Kumaran: I think that Greg can do it, and then lean on me and other Workstream owners for more of the technical depth, but like, but, like.
23 00:01:44.360 ⇒ 00:02:01.010 Uttam Kumaran: I think… but that’s just on his work stream. I think for default, dude, it is, like, really primarily, like, someone just driving the tickets that are already there forward and presenting, and, like, that would take 10 hours off my week of, like, anxiety and…
24 00:02:01.050 ⇒ 00:02:05.230 Uttam Kumaran: Managing these guys. And, like, that’s all I need. I…
25 00:02:05.470 ⇒ 00:02:09.069 Uttam Kumaran: I just need that, because that is an easy client.
26 00:02:09.539 ⇒ 00:02:14.619 Uttam Kumaran: So, and I think as we get bigger, these guys are gonna be more of that.
27 00:02:14.760 ⇒ 00:02:19.330 Uttam Kumaran: And I don’t know if the expectations for that person to have, like.
28 00:02:19.930 ⇒ 00:02:23.850 Uttam Kumaran: technical breath, I would say, is actually…
29 00:02:24.220 ⇒ 00:02:32.169 Uttam Kumaran: gonna be that high, versus, like, if they just are in one… if they know one area really well, they should be able to extend. Okay, that’s… but that’s my, like, thought.
30 00:02:32.760 ⇒ 00:02:47.990 Robert Tseng: Yeah, okay, I want to put it a different way. So, like, I see… I see B coming in, he’s basically internal pro… he’s, like, our only delivery PM right now. I think he does a good job at running things internally. I think he’s a little bit not sure of himself still, and…
31 00:02:47.990 ⇒ 00:02:48.340 Uttam Kumaran: Yes.
32 00:02:48.340 ⇒ 00:02:58.979 Robert Tseng: But, like, anyway, like, so I don’t know if he can really be client-facing. Like, he can be, like… like, he can… he can run meetings with, like, our operator counterparts, so, like.
33 00:02:58.980 ⇒ 00:02:59.640 Uttam Kumaran: Yes.
34 00:02:59.640 ⇒ 00:03:00.570 Robert Tseng: p.m.
35 00:03:00.570 ⇒ 00:03:02.830 Uttam Kumaran: Paired with Zoran, it’s really good, because.
36 00:03:02.830 ⇒ 00:03:03.320 Robert Tseng: Yeah.
37 00:03:03.320 ⇒ 00:03:17.790 Uttam Kumaran: Zoran just comes in and talks, and then everything gets handled. He is really a little bit ham-handed because he’s overcompensating for not having the technical depth, but the AI piece is giving him a lot of that, so…
38 00:03:17.790 ⇒ 00:03:18.780 Robert Tseng: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
39 00:03:18.780 ⇒ 00:03:25.350 Uttam Kumaran: Andy, dude, he’s literally self-learning, like, he’s teaching himself SQL and Python, like, on the weekends, so I feel like he’s gonna get there.
40 00:03:25.350 ⇒ 00:03:35.629 Robert Tseng: Yeah, I think he’ll get there. But, like, in order to plug… like, he… he… but he… like, I think to draw the line between him and a Greg… Greg basically feels like a PM to me, at this point.
41 00:03:35.680 ⇒ 00:03:50.440 Robert Tseng: But he’s, like, not as organized as a PM, like a project manager. Like, he doesn’t ever maintain his tickets, he doesn’t follow the rituals that we have set up. It’s just, like, a consistent… just his documentation, his slide work, everything is just, like.
42 00:03:50.510 ⇒ 00:04:07.570 Robert Tseng: subpar, frankly, I just think it’s… he doesn’t really do the PM work well. But what he can do is he… he, like, can do… he can just talk to the… to the clients and make them be okay with what he’s saying. So, like, there’s not… it’s like pure account management, but, like.
43 00:04:07.570 ⇒ 00:04:09.099 Uttam Kumaran: I think that’s great.
44 00:04:09.490 ⇒ 00:04:12.939 Robert Tseng: Which, yeah, it’s fine, I guess, but, like, who’s.
45 00:04:12.940 ⇒ 00:04:15.100 Uttam Kumaran: Who else apart from me and you, can do that?
46 00:04:15.100 ⇒ 00:04:21.480 Robert Tseng: I know, I think we’re just, like, over-indexing on that, like, okay, yes. And so…
47 00:04:21.480 ⇒ 00:04:22.110 Uttam Kumaran: Fair.
48 00:04:22.110 ⇒ 00:04:26.910 Robert Tseng: like, I… I think now, like, he can… he can get me, like, it was like a…
49 00:04:27.170 ⇒ 00:04:47.029 Robert Tseng: I can go out of office and trust that he can run an ELT call. If I, like, build the deck for him and give him the script and tell him what to say, and he can say it and represent… represent me well, you know? And I feel like that’s basically what you’re having him do, you know, default. You’re like, default, you get everything ready, and you pass to him, and he just wants to be in the meetings to talk about it.
50 00:04:47.060 ⇒ 00:04:58.499 Robert Tseng: And I, you know, so yeah, he, I think he’s really just… just a talking head at this point. But from, like, obviously, if I just kind of quickly just go through, I had, like, 3 points, like, around the heed-in situation.
51 00:04:58.680 ⇒ 00:05:02.889 Robert Tseng: One is, like, yeah, we had him basically be, like, on the workstream owner.
52 00:05:03.370 ⇒ 00:05:05.919 Robert Tseng: And he, like…
53 00:05:05.940 ⇒ 00:05:19.880 Robert Tseng: he did… it started off okay on Eden, but I actually think, you know, they still haven’t signed. Like, he… when I was out of office, he didn’t push anything forward. Like, I think he just… in my mind, it was like, he could… he could get enough to get it started.
54 00:05:19.880 ⇒ 00:05:28.790 Robert Tseng: get the right people in the room. He could run enablement sessions, but then he’s not really thinking about, like, project lifecycle and, like.
55 00:05:29.030 ⇒ 00:05:32.510 Robert Tseng: Okay, post-demo, close the deal. Then, get.
56 00:05:32.510 ⇒ 00:05:33.109 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah. This group?
57 00:05:33.110 ⇒ 00:05:40.860 Robert Tseng: trained them, and, like, you know, there’s just, like, the sequencing of, like, how this really becomes successful, I don’t really think he gets it.
58 00:05:40.930 ⇒ 00:05:50.360 Robert Tseng: And so I worry about him doing that element, too. I was on that call yesterday, an hour call. It was pretty much just, he was supposed to drive it with B,
59 00:05:50.360 ⇒ 00:06:05.530 Robert Tseng: And Jasmine just kind of took over, and just, like, pretty much drove it, and I think she got to some good, good outcomes there. But it was like, I expected that from him in that call, in terms of, like, getting… in terms of sequencing out how this Omni migration was gonna go.
60 00:06:05.710 ⇒ 00:06:09.670 Robert Tseng: So, yeah, I mean, I just… I feel like…
61 00:06:10.380 ⇒ 00:06:26.540 Robert Tseng: And then, product analytics-wise, I mean, we lost… we lost that work stream. You know, like, Eden wants to work with Josh. Joshua, who I’m going to talk to next week, and maybe he’ll work with Brainforge or whatever, but, like, he had a whole quarter to kind of just, like, try to just defend that for us a little bit. So, I feel like, you know, there’s…
62 00:06:26.700 ⇒ 00:06:33.130 Robert Tseng: Yeah, I don’t… I can’t pinpoint exactly what it is right now, but I just feel like he’s not… he’s not…
63 00:06:33.240 ⇒ 00:06:48.140 Robert Tseng: able to drive projects. That’s basically what I’m trying to say. But he can do, like, the pure account management side. So, like, with this Garrett guy that’s, like, on… I guess, like, I’ve looked through this transcript notes, like.
64 00:06:48.240 ⇒ 00:06:59.769 Robert Tseng: he is a PM background. Greg is saying he’s good client-facing, and, you know, Kayla’s vouching for him, it’s like a referral from her. He ran, like, data projects at much bigger companies.
65 00:06:59.770 ⇒ 00:07:09.949 Robert Tseng: So I’m curious, like, you know, is this guy… will he be a mix of B and Greg? You know, like, can he really basically just be a better… is he a better PM than
66 00:07:10.230 ⇒ 00:07:26.029 Robert Tseng: than B, and is he, like, same level as Greg, like, on the account management side? If he is, then he’s 2… he’s 2-1, and I think that would be… that would be more valuable. Yeah, I don’t know his rate or anything, like, I didn’t really look at all the details.
67 00:07:26.930 ⇒ 00:07:35.380 Robert Tseng: That’s why I’m interested in talking to him still. I don’t really need the panel, I don’t need Amber and Greg to be there. Like, I’d be trying… I could… I could talk to them myself today, still.
68 00:07:35.810 ⇒ 00:07:38.559 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I mean, the only… the main reason is for…
69 00:07:38.750 ⇒ 00:07:42.880 Uttam Kumaran: you to… you to vouch. Yeah, so, like…
70 00:07:43.530 ⇒ 00:07:47.450 Uttam Kumaran: the… on the technical… like, for the technical panel interviews, usually I let…
71 00:07:47.570 ⇒ 00:07:52.500 Uttam Kumaran: the other folks vouch, and then I just come in and interrupt and, like, fuck around and see if they can, like.
72 00:07:52.720 ⇒ 00:08:00.180 Uttam Kumaran: they’re actually, like, understand what they’re talking about. Yeah. And, like, that’s… but on the strategy side, yeah, I think it’s a much more…
73 00:08:00.910 ⇒ 00:08:05.849 Uttam Kumaran: like, behavioral and much more… yeah. So, I mean, on the Greg piece.
74 00:08:06.130 ⇒ 00:08:11.720 Uttam Kumaran: Fair. Okay, I, I, I see, I, I see you, like, I think…
75 00:08:15.240 ⇒ 00:08:19.080 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I mean, I think my question to him could be.
76 00:08:19.380 ⇒ 00:08:23.500 Uttam Kumaran: hey, do you feel like you’re over your skis? Like, do you think…
77 00:08:24.600 ⇒ 00:08:27.940 Uttam Kumaran: like, you asked to go do this Omni thing.
78 00:08:29.060 ⇒ 00:08:33.530 Uttam Kumaran: We handed it to you, but you didn’t close out either of them, and we have to make a decision now.
79 00:08:34.299 ⇒ 00:08:37.909 Uttam Kumaran: Maybe that’s what I should have a conversation with him on Friday about.
80 00:08:38.159 ⇒ 00:08:45.139 Uttam Kumaran: Hmm. I mean, I mean, this is where, like, I think… longer term, like, what… when Clarence…
81 00:08:45.350 ⇒ 00:08:50.350 Uttam Kumaran: we had a… we had sort of a talk, a little argument on Monday, because I was like.
82 00:08:50.500 ⇒ 00:09:05.119 Uttam Kumaran: frustrated with some of this stuff, and he was like, dude, I don’t think your team… I think I figured out your team doesn’t have, like, standards. And I said, no, I mean, what is this standard? Like, just get… like, is it obvious? He’s like, no, I don’t think it… people are realizing.
83 00:09:05.250 ⇒ 00:09:10.769 Uttam Kumaran: And I sat with it for, like, a few days, and I feel like he’s right in that
84 00:09:10.900 ⇒ 00:09:26.509 Uttam Kumaran: people are messing these things up, and I think we’re going to then be like, why you messed… why did you mess this up? Like, for example, you’re saying, hey, Greg isn’t taking care of his linear tickets. I think we’re assuming that people have that expectation, and then there’s some point of accountability.
85 00:09:26.650 ⇒ 00:09:28.890 Uttam Kumaran: I think instead what it’s like is…
86 00:09:29.130 ⇒ 00:09:33.239 Uttam Kumaran: I’m like, hey, take care of this client, and they don’t actually know
87 00:09:33.370 ⇒ 00:09:36.269 Uttam Kumaran: the… the rituals to do. I think… Yeah.
88 00:09:36.270 ⇒ 00:09:36.730 Robert Tseng: Forging…
89 00:09:36.730 ⇒ 00:09:37.110 Uttam Kumaran: It’s gone.
90 00:09:37.110 ⇒ 00:09:39.310 Robert Tseng: He’s not… he doesn’t know how to do it, yeah.
91 00:09:39.310 ⇒ 00:09:52.420 Uttam Kumaran: The forging doc actually clearly lays it out, but I think it’s too… it’s too broad, and we don’t refer back to it in terms of, like, hey, these are the standards. You didn’t hit these. Like, you didn’t hit standard 5. Like, and so…
92 00:09:52.510 ⇒ 00:10:03.780 Uttam Kumaran: one thing that I’m thinking about, and I’ll talk about it on Friday with our crew, is, like, how I’m thinking about these standards, but I’m also thinking that maybe we should, like.
93 00:10:03.930 ⇒ 00:10:16.759 Uttam Kumaran: in order to try to salvage some of these people, like, my… when I called Clarence, I’m like, dude, what should we do? Should we just fire all these people? He’s like, no. But he’s like, you should… you should think about, like, how do we…
94 00:10:16.760 ⇒ 00:10:30.499 Uttam Kumaran: raise them up, and how do we mentor? And I’m like, okay, we have to… and he was also like, there’s a risk if you keep hiring new people, that they walk into a system with no standards. And I was like, okay, fair, like, I’m with you.
95 00:10:30.500 ⇒ 00:10:36.450 Robert Tseng: Greg example, you know, like, you and I, we’re not gonna mentor him on the PM side. What is it? Like, you’re gonna bring… we’re gonna bring… I mean, hypothetically.
96 00:10:37.030 ⇒ 00:10:38.410 Robert Tseng: Alex to.
97 00:10:38.410 ⇒ 00:10:39.530 Uttam Kumaran: No, no.
98 00:10:39.530 ⇒ 00:10:42.109 Robert Tseng: IPM stuff, like, how would that even…
99 00:10:42.110 ⇒ 00:10:52.729 Uttam Kumaran: So I think what I’m gonna… what I’m basically gonna pitch is that, and I’m working on sort of, like, what the JD is, is that we swap one of the people we’re gonna hire for someone that’s, like.
100 00:10:52.800 ⇒ 00:11:02.330 Uttam Kumaran: actually a more trained, like, more senior, B. But, in fact, it’s actually… that person doesn’t need to have, like.
101 00:11:02.960 ⇒ 00:11:17.510 Uttam Kumaran: a ton of technical expertise. They have to have expertise in getting teams to adhere to standards, and holding people accountable. And so, like, B is more brute force, and then he’s like, we have to do all these things. He goes to people, and then they don’t do it.
102 00:11:17.650 ⇒ 00:11:33.259 Uttam Kumaran: I’m thinking about, truly, like, okay, we haven’t been able to find a head of delivery because I’ve always been like, that person needs to be, like, me. Like, they have to kind of know everything and do this. Instead, I actually think what I lack is, like.
103 00:11:33.260 ⇒ 00:11:43.659 Uttam Kumaran: And it’s time to kind of keep people adhering to standards, and I think that’s the role I’m gonna kind of pitch, is that, like, we need… I don’t know what this title is, but maybe it is head of delivery.
104 00:11:43.950 ⇒ 00:11:58.180 Uttam Kumaran: Or something, but, like, someone to just basically say, like, hey, you’re out of policy on these standards, and here’s how it’s resulting in the client. Either you learn that, or there’s other options. Right now, me and you don’t have time to do that.
105 00:11:58.390 ⇒ 00:12:01.049 Uttam Kumaran: Right? So, we’re coming in once a day and, like.
106 00:12:01.290 ⇒ 00:12:06.079 Uttam Kumaran: this is wrong, this is wrong, and I’m like, I don’t have time to show you what right is, you know?
107 00:12:06.290 ⇒ 00:12:11.779 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah. And I think that may be the only path, because otherwise…
108 00:12:11.960 ⇒ 00:12:21.129 Uttam Kumaran: there’s nobody else on the team… like, I think Jasmine will do that within the strategy team. Sam’s certainly not doing that. Awashia’s certainly not doing that.
109 00:12:21.350 ⇒ 00:12:25.580 Uttam Kumaran: So… And me and you don’t have any time to do that.
110 00:12:25.800 ⇒ 00:12:30.480 Uttam Kumaran: So… That’s the sort of, like, Slightly…
111 00:12:31.090 ⇒ 00:12:37.289 Uttam Kumaran: later problem, but I think to… to that… to that point is that, like, I think that’s really what’s happening.
112 00:12:38.940 ⇒ 00:12:43.309 Uttam Kumaran: Is that some people just don’t have the intuition for, like, what a great… what great client management is, and…
113 00:12:43.410 ⇒ 00:12:48.969 Uttam Kumaran: They sort of are… Just doing whatever they feel like, or just doing whatever’s right in front of them.
114 00:12:49.510 ⇒ 00:13:09.150 Robert Tseng: Or, like, for Greg specifically, let’s just, like… I think he does, you know, I definitely give him a lot of credit. I think he knows how to do the account… he knows the intangibles of the account management side, because he’s been a product manager. He’s worked with a lot of internal stakeholders. I think that’s why you can make, like, kind of operator counterparts feel good about working… about, like, what he’s saying. He understands that.
115 00:13:09.150 ⇒ 00:13:12.349 Robert Tseng: But he’s never, like, done… project management.
116 00:13:12.390 ⇒ 00:13:25.279 Robert Tseng: you know, from a consulting perspective, or like, I don’t… I guess maybe he just even hasn’t really run big projects like that at his previous companies as well. So, yeah, I mean, I think we may have all of the stuff, like.
117 00:13:25.280 ⇒ 00:13:38.689 Robert Tseng: written out to the best of our ability in an abstracted, more generalized way in, like, the Forging the Brain doc, or whatever. But, like, obviously reading it on the dock and then actually being able to see the standard is a different… is a different thing.
118 00:13:38.740 ⇒ 00:13:55.840 Robert Tseng: So yeah, when we, like, in the scenario yesterday, where it’s like, okay, Greg, come in, drive this conversation of, like, how is this Omni, like, rollout in Element gonna work out? B has, like, the scaffolding up. He just has our basic Gantt charts, like, he has all these timeline things.
119 00:13:56.000 ⇒ 00:14:04.339 Robert Tseng: And Greg goes up there, and he’s like, yeah, looks good. You know, like, it just… that’s… their bar is the same. He’s not, like, raising the bar. And then Jasmine looks at it, and he’s like.
120 00:14:04.340 ⇒ 00:14:04.690 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
121 00:14:04.690 ⇒ 00:14:18.280 Robert Tseng: Jasmine’s like, whoa, whoa, whoa, like, no, this is not okay. We actually need da-da-da-da-da, and she’s going in, then she pulls the doc, she’s, like, starting to drive the conversation, because she’s seen this, like, and, like, seen it at a level that, you know, neither Bea or Greg has seen it at.
122 00:14:18.320 ⇒ 00:14:30.440 Robert Tseng: And, you know, I… and I think that’s, like, it’s hard, because we can’t… B can’t… B can’t upskill, Greg, and Greg cannot upskill B either, in this… in this way. They’re at… they’re at… they’re at the same point.
123 00:14:31.340 ⇒ 00:14:32.720 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, they’re at the same point.
124 00:14:33.030 ⇒ 00:14:38.220 Robert Tseng: Yeah, at least on that dimension of the PM side.
125 00:14:39.570 ⇒ 00:14:45.330 Robert Tseng: So… so yeah, I mean, I think I like… I like what you’re saying about, like, kind of the standards, like.
126 00:14:45.330 ⇒ 00:14:47.699 Uttam Kumaran: Similar thing as…
127 00:14:48.630 ⇒ 00:15:05.910 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, let me… let me give you one other example. On the AI side, one thing I told Pranav is I’m like, yo, you are putting bullshit in front of me that, like, you’re… is clearly AI-written, and you don’t know it deeply. Don’t… stop doing that. Like, I’m not a fucking moron. Like…
128 00:15:05.920 ⇒ 00:15:11.670 Uttam Kumaran: you can’t just shove, hey, build me a project plan for ABC in front of me, like, I’m not…
129 00:15:12.150 ⇒ 00:15:24.419 Uttam Kumaran: I’m not taking those types of meetings anymore. You need to go work with Sam, show me a document that clearly outlines the outcomes we are driving for this client, and how long it’s gonna take.
130 00:15:24.570 ⇒ 00:15:30.340 Uttam Kumaran: and how you’re gonna hit the margin. Don’t book a call with me until that is ready.
131 00:15:30.420 ⇒ 00:15:41.650 Uttam Kumaran: And, like, that’s sort of what I pressed, and I told him, your job is to just tell him how long it’s going to take to do things, and what to look out for.
132 00:15:41.730 ⇒ 00:15:52.239 Uttam Kumaran: Pranav’s job is to sequence it all and execute. Like, but if both of you need to meet, and then give me something to reflect on that is not, like.
133 00:15:52.650 ⇒ 00:16:03.399 Uttam Kumaran: garbage. Like, that is not just nothing. And so that’s how I press them, and so this is where I’m like, maybe we pair Greg and B together, and then we just get… I think that feedback…
134 00:16:03.420 ⇒ 00:16:19.710 Uttam Kumaran: actually went really well. Like, I think Pranav sort of got that he’s like, okay, like, I see my role really clearly. I think Pranav does a good job at being like, I don’t know how to do this. Oftentimes, like, I get annoyed by that, but I’m like, okay, at least he’s, like, asking.
135 00:16:19.760 ⇒ 00:16:30.159 Uttam Kumaran: And so, maybe that’s one short-term fix, is that, like, we have these, like, really, like, hyper-dense feedback sessions that me and you can…
136 00:16:30.310 ⇒ 00:16:38.069 Uttam Kumaran: give, and then their job is to put something up, you know? Put something up on the board that we can reflect on together, you know?
137 00:16:38.530 ⇒ 00:16:39.150 Robert Tseng: Yeah.
138 00:16:43.060 ⇒ 00:16:46.039 Uttam Kumaran: I don’t know, I mean, it doesn’t… I feel like we’re…
139 00:16:46.270 ⇒ 00:16:49.230 Uttam Kumaran: We’re riffing on a couple of options here, but, like.
140 00:16:49.660 ⇒ 00:16:56.759 Uttam Kumaran: I think you’re right, like, Greg, even today, he’s like, default’s great, product analytics. I’m like, yo, you said fucking nothing.
141 00:16:57.350 ⇒ 00:16:57.890 Robert Tseng: Yeah.
142 00:16:57.890 ⇒ 00:17:00.750 Uttam Kumaran: You said absolutely zero, right? Wasted death.
143 00:17:01.050 ⇒ 00:17:06.959 Uttam Kumaran: Like, you stole air from Earth. Like, what… Nobody gives a fu-
144 00:17:08.619 ⇒ 00:17:15.050 Uttam Kumaran: not the star, like, what do you not get? And I’m… and so then I’m like, okay, let me think of, like, what…
145 00:17:15.700 ⇒ 00:17:20.910 Uttam Kumaran: Could, like, how… Okay, so instead, I’m like, should I just be, like.
146 00:17:21.859 ⇒ 00:17:41.659 Uttam Kumaran: I basically was like, can you run this thing or not? He’s like, I can run it. I’m like, what does running look like? Where he’s like, I’m just gonna hover over it. I’m like, you’re gonna… you’re gonna fall on your face. I’m gonna run it. So maybe what we should do is be… is… is try to do some of the things that we tried, which is like, yo, by Wednesday, if you don’t have these things ready.
147 00:17:41.700 ⇒ 00:17:47.099 Uttam Kumaran: one of us will run it until you have it ready. We sort of, like, And we just keep…
148 00:17:53.760 ⇒ 00:17:56.070 Uttam Kumaran: For next quarter, I’m not thinking…
149 00:17:56.070 ⇒ 00:17:57.680 Robert Tseng: Okay, I hear you.
150 00:17:57.680 ⇒ 00:17:59.740 Uttam Kumaran: I’m trying cavities.
151 00:17:59.850 ⇒ 00:18:15.299 Uttam Kumaran: trying to have these feedback sessions, and dude, for next quarter, I’m not gonna give a bonus until we hit these standards to anybody on delivery. Because, like, people are just not doing the basic things. I’m gonna make sure that my side is taken care of, whereas I’ve put…
152 00:18:15.300 ⇒ 00:18:21.570 Uttam Kumaran: exactly, like, what I want people to be doing in front of them, but then people need to nail it, you know?
153 00:18:23.360 ⇒ 00:18:27.159 Robert Tseng: Are we even fledged to give them their bonus this quarter?
154 00:18:27.780 ⇒ 00:18:34.770 Uttam Kumaran: This quarter, I mean, this… this quarter, like… It’s, it’s, like, I’ll…
155 00:18:35.240 ⇒ 00:18:37.319 Uttam Kumaran: how I’m gonna do. But, like.
156 00:18:38.210 ⇒ 00:18:42.280 Uttam Kumaran: I’m gonna be… I just think, like, I… I can see how I…
157 00:18:42.630 ⇒ 00:18:46.689 Uttam Kumaran: didn’t make it super clear. Yeah. And I feel like…
158 00:18:47.240 ⇒ 00:18:51.659 Uttam Kumaran: take was that, why the fuck do I have to make this? Like, how more clear can this be?
159 00:18:51.790 ⇒ 00:18:57.640 Uttam Kumaran: And, like, fine, like, okay, if people are getting it, it’s my job for people to get it.
160 00:18:57.750 ⇒ 00:18:59.669 Uttam Kumaran: I’m gonna put the standards up.
161 00:18:59.870 ⇒ 00:19:04.380 Uttam Kumaran: And then basically, I think we’re gonna notice the bar, I’m gonna be like, yo, like, for example.
162 00:19:04.700 ⇒ 00:19:07.669 Uttam Kumaran: I’m like, why did it take you guys?
163 00:19:08.320 ⇒ 00:19:12.800 Uttam Kumaran: Send me a single document of the next month.
164 00:19:15.260 ⇒ 00:19:18.539 Uttam Kumaran: phenomenal. Like, I didn’t…
165 00:19:21.260 ⇒ 00:19:22.709 Robert Tseng: Audio’s cutting out again.
166 00:19:52.810 ⇒ 00:19:54.200 Robert Tseng: Yep, I’m here, I’m here.
167 00:19:55.700 ⇒ 00:19:56.620 Uttam Kumaran: Yes, can you hear me?
168 00:19:57.380 ⇒ 00:19:58.290 Robert Tseng: Yeah, I’m still here.
169 00:19:59.370 ⇒ 00:20:00.050 Uttam Kumaran: Okay.
170 00:20:00.520 ⇒ 00:20:02.750 Uttam Kumaran: I’m just gonna connect to this Wi-Fi.
171 00:20:03.300 ⇒ 00:20:04.590 Robert Tseng: Okay, no worries.
172 00:20:16.470 ⇒ 00:20:17.250 Uttam Kumaran: Okay.
173 00:20:17.790 ⇒ 00:20:18.620 Uttam Kumaran: Back.
174 00:20:19.360 ⇒ 00:20:19.970 Robert Tseng: Yeah.
175 00:20:20.310 ⇒ 00:20:20.850 Uttam Kumaran: Okay.
176 00:20:21.030 ⇒ 00:20:33.540 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I mean, I just think, like, we need to basically be able to call to, like, exactly where the expectations were missed, when they have been missed, and just hammer that home.
177 00:20:35.380 ⇒ 00:20:39.600 Uttam Kumaran: And I think it’s gonna look like a mix of, like, our normal, just, like, putting pressure.
178 00:20:39.770 ⇒ 00:20:44.299 Uttam Kumaran: But at least it’s gonna have some backing, and then the… basically, I’m gonna be like, unless…
179 00:20:44.430 ⇒ 00:20:59.180 Uttam Kumaran: these standards are hit, like, there’s nothing forward. Yeah. And that way, you can go say, hey, Greg, you’re doing a great job on the account management standard, but you’re really fucking up on the project management one, and so you need to do that.
180 00:21:00.510 ⇒ 00:21:02.919 Uttam Kumaran: Like, and we… we… we…
181 00:21:03.080 ⇒ 00:21:13.449 Uttam Kumaran: I think me and you both are, like, in the mix of, like, okay, like, I feel like we’re always like, this is not the right person, like, let’s find the right person, and I’m like, okay, let’s…
182 00:21:13.730 ⇒ 00:21:21.890 Uttam Kumaran: let’s give the feedback super crisp, that there is no growth until you hit that thing that you’re missing. So go get that thing that you’re missing, you know?
183 00:21:22.230 ⇒ 00:21:22.610 Robert Tseng: Yeah.
184 00:21:22.610 ⇒ 00:21:24.309 Uttam Kumaran: Like, you’re doing great on this.
185 00:21:25.040 ⇒ 00:21:36.160 Uttam Kumaran: you are completely coming to meetings, like, you’re riffing too much. And, like, you can’t out-riff someone that does that for a living. Like, you are doing that too… you’re doing that way too much.
186 00:21:36.160 ⇒ 00:21:36.740 Robert Tseng: Yeah.
187 00:21:36.740 ⇒ 00:21:39.559 Uttam Kumaran: And you’re doing that in internal meetings, which is even worse. Like…
188 00:21:39.560 ⇒ 00:21:40.060 Robert Tseng: Yeah.
189 00:21:40.320 ⇒ 00:21:41.560 Uttam Kumaran: So, fix that.
190 00:21:41.800 ⇒ 00:21:48.359 Uttam Kumaran: Like, you need to come prepared to talk about what you know, and if you don’t know, then you need to delegate, and you need to come with a plan.
191 00:21:48.670 ⇒ 00:21:51.189 Uttam Kumaran: I think that may be really constructive.
192 00:21:51.230 ⇒ 00:21:51.929 Robert Tseng: And I…
193 00:21:51.930 ⇒ 00:21:56.370 Uttam Kumaran: I think we need to try that, in addition to going and getting
194 00:21:57.580 ⇒ 00:22:01.100 Uttam Kumaran: great people, you know, it’s kind of, like, what I’m trying to say.
195 00:22:01.200 ⇒ 00:22:02.400 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I agree.
196 00:22:03.280 ⇒ 00:22:09.390 Uttam Kumaran: And… I just hate that these weeks go by and we don’t have, like, interventions.
197 00:22:09.980 ⇒ 00:22:13.400 Uttam Kumaran: That we’re, like, trying apart from just…
198 00:22:13.680 ⇒ 00:22:17.130 Uttam Kumaran: Like, raising the temperature, but, like, it’s…
199 00:22:17.340 ⇒ 00:22:23.929 Uttam Kumaran: want this… this sort of role I’m thinking about, and a couple people I’m talking to, fit that… fit that role of, like.
200 00:22:24.120 ⇒ 00:22:34.429 Uttam Kumaran: just being like, hey, this is the rules, like, you didn’t hit this one, let’s work on hitting that one. Go. And part of it is totally, like, someone having time.
201 00:22:35.320 ⇒ 00:22:40.199 Uttam Kumaran: to go sit with these folks and do that mentorship and teaching, we… me and you just don’t have that.
202 00:22:40.410 ⇒ 00:22:42.430 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah. Part of it is that, like.
203 00:22:42.930 ⇒ 00:22:47.099 Uttam Kumaran: Okay, who’s beating the drum on the entire portfolio of clients?
204 00:22:47.510 ⇒ 00:22:51.469 Uttam Kumaran: And all the people leading them to, like, X… to just get better and better.
205 00:22:51.580 ⇒ 00:22:55.900 Uttam Kumaran: So, I think… I think… We’re gonna find another thing.
206 00:22:56.050 ⇒ 00:22:58.790 Uttam Kumaran: Two… another one human being.
207 00:22:59.010 ⇒ 00:23:04.719 Uttam Kumaran: In… if we hold people to a higher standard, instead of hiring another person, you know?
208 00:23:05.030 ⇒ 00:23:06.710 Uttam Kumaran: So that’s why I’m like.
209 00:23:07.310 ⇒ 00:23:12.140 Uttam Kumaran: I’m almost… we have some junior people, or some mid-level people that I’m almost like…
210 00:23:12.900 ⇒ 00:23:18.280 Uttam Kumaran: I think, like, a Garrett or another person, like, like that, we should bring them.
211 00:23:18.690 ⇒ 00:23:21.490 Uttam Kumaran: And then we should just not bring on anyone that’s, like.
212 00:23:23.730 ⇒ 00:23:28.799 Uttam Kumaran: Who hasn’t seen it until we had to figure out this, like, the standard, the standard thing.
213 00:23:28.800 ⇒ 00:23:29.480 Robert Tseng: Yeah.
214 00:23:30.550 ⇒ 00:23:37.700 Robert Tseng: Okay, let me just, like, kind of… yeah, I hear you, and I think when I chat with Garrett today, I want to evaluate him on, like.
215 00:23:37.820 ⇒ 00:23:53.629 Robert Tseng: you know, in whatever capacity. Can he… can he be somebody who holds our team to those… to the standards on the project management and the account management side? Like, I think he basically has to be a unicorn for him to us to consider bringing him in. He needs to be able to upskill, like, he needs to continue to…
216 00:23:53.690 ⇒ 00:24:00.359 Robert Tseng: upskill B. He also needs to be able to… to bring… bring Greg’s standards up.
217 00:24:00.630 ⇒ 00:24:09.199 Robert Tseng: And, yeah, I mean, I just wanna… yeah, I think that’s kind of how I’m thinking about it, in the context of the people that we have right now. So,
218 00:24:09.550 ⇒ 00:24:11.019 Robert Tseng: Yeah, I guess that’s… that’s my…
219 00:24:11.020 ⇒ 00:24:13.920 Uttam Kumaran: But let me, let me just try to, like, get you…
220 00:24:14.300 ⇒ 00:24:26.329 Uttam Kumaran: Let me just try to get you, like, a little matrix of, like, what I’m thinking for these standards. It’s not, like, done yet, but I’ll just send it to you. That way, in front of you, you can see, like, all the things we’re gonna judge.
221 00:24:26.430 ⇒ 00:24:28.340 Uttam Kumaran: I guess, CSOs buy.
222 00:24:28.340 ⇒ 00:24:28.840 Robert Tseng: Yeah.
223 00:24:28.840 ⇒ 00:24:32.440 Uttam Kumaran: And you just see if you can check every box while you’re on the call.
224 00:24:32.620 ⇒ 00:24:33.040 Robert Tseng: Yeah.
225 00:24:33.040 ⇒ 00:24:33.449 Uttam Kumaran: You know?
226 00:24:33.450 ⇒ 00:24:34.540 Robert Tseng: That would be helpful.
227 00:24:36.950 ⇒ 00:24:37.550 Uttam Kumaran: Okay.
228 00:24:40.370 ⇒ 00:24:46.980 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I mean, it just feels like deja vu over and over, and I’m like, what are we missing, you know?
229 00:24:48.530 ⇒ 00:24:51.310 Uttam Kumaran: And it’s not… luckily, we don’t have people that are, like.
230 00:24:51.500 ⇒ 00:24:55.650 Uttam Kumaran: lazy or, like, malicious, it’s just, like, they’re not getting it, and I’m like.
231 00:24:56.480 ⇒ 00:25:00.460 Uttam Kumaran: I thought we said enough about how to do these things and how to ask for help.
232 00:25:00.880 ⇒ 00:25:05.620 Uttam Kumaran: And I don’t think people… I think people are being… Yeah.
233 00:25:05.620 ⇒ 00:25:21.069 Robert Tseng: Yeah, like, let’s try to, like… I forgot. I feel the deja vu, but if we could spend a couple minutes thinking… I forgot Justin. Justin was, like, the last senior guy that we, like, kind of took a bet on for the PM side.
234 00:25:23.210 ⇒ 00:25:30.839 Robert Tseng: Yeah, I guess Justin versus Greg and B, like, how is that situation different from what we… what we have today in your…
235 00:25:30.840 ⇒ 00:25:37.850 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I mean… again, I think I brought in Justin when I felt like…
236 00:25:38.600 ⇒ 00:25:47.450 Uttam Kumaran: what was lacking was project management, and… but what happens is, if someone goes and does the project management for you.
237 00:25:47.850 ⇒ 00:25:53.499 Uttam Kumaran: then it’s taking it off of their plate. My bet is that all of these guys can do it.
238 00:25:53.710 ⇒ 00:26:06.699 Uttam Kumaran: they just need to know what it… what that is for them on their clients. And so… and then what Justin wanted… Justin had no technical expertise, so he’s purely a pencil pusher PM.
239 00:26:06.740 ⇒ 00:26:17.839 Uttam Kumaran: Right? He was interested in getting technical, but he was never gonna get there. At least people who don’t ever get there. So I was like, maybe he is that person that’s sort of enforcing these rituals, but I never, like…
240 00:26:17.930 ⇒ 00:26:34.550 Uttam Kumaran: I never, like, clicked to me, like, that that’s what I was actually, like, probably looking for. Instead, I was like, a project, like, we’re not organized, we need organization, go get us organized. And he used the tools in his toolbox, which is more process, and…
241 00:26:34.920 ⇒ 00:26:35.850 Uttam Kumaran: stuff.
242 00:26:36.130 ⇒ 00:26:40.560 Uttam Kumaran: And… But, like, and it never got there.
243 00:26:40.690 ⇒ 00:26:44.679 Uttam Kumaran: And, just like usual, everybody here, like.
244 00:26:45.050 ⇒ 00:26:56.990 Uttam Kumaran: immediately starts, like, jumping to, like, okay, how am I gonna get the bonus, and these things, and I’m like, dude, you’re… you’re not even doing the basics. And so I think for Justin, he was more… he was, like, a more senior B.
245 00:26:58.080 ⇒ 00:27:05.759 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, he was like a more… he was… he was like, but I wouldn’t even say… he’s, yeah, a more experienced senior project manager.
246 00:27:06.400 ⇒ 00:27:12.759 Uttam Kumaran: In situations, which is, I think, some of the situations we’re gonna get into in Enterprise, where
247 00:27:12.870 ⇒ 00:27:19.620 Uttam Kumaran: For them, like, the project manager is just there to push things along and be a good face, because they’re used to not having
248 00:27:20.230 ⇒ 00:27:25.989 Uttam Kumaran: The things be done on time, and they’re used to not interacting with great engineers, so it is a lot more account management.
249 00:27:26.120 ⇒ 00:27:32.020 Uttam Kumaran: And so I think he was… I think he’s like, B, this is why I think B still fits in this, because whoever…
250 00:27:32.140 ⇒ 00:27:39.150 Uttam Kumaran: Comes for, like, this… Standard adherence, standard raising thing needs someone
251 00:27:39.470 ⇒ 00:27:45.939 Uttam Kumaran: like, needs a right hand, but also, B is actually showing promise that he’s actually delivering on client work, so…
252 00:27:46.650 ⇒ 00:27:49.460 Uttam Kumaran: I… I don’t think that… that… that other person…
253 00:27:49.730 ⇒ 00:27:52.630 Uttam Kumaran: Like, gets to escape that necessarily, but…
254 00:27:52.910 ⇒ 00:28:03.480 Uttam Kumaran: what B can’t do is formulate the standards and drive that morning meeting that I’m driving, and build that… build the repertoire with everybody, go be like, hey.
255 00:28:03.670 ⇒ 00:28:10.019 Uttam Kumaran: what do you struggle… which standard are you struggling with? Let’s go walk through it. You know, he’s not able to do that. It’s really brute force.
256 00:28:10.490 ⇒ 00:28:18.259 Uttam Kumaran: And so that’s sort of, like, how I… I’m thinking about it.
257 00:28:21.270 ⇒ 00:28:21.940 Robert Tseng: Okay.
258 00:28:25.510 ⇒ 00:28:30.609 Uttam Kumaran: I mean, we… we consistently… this is where East… also for Pranav, what I told him is.
259 00:28:30.790 ⇒ 00:28:36.919 Uttam Kumaran: he’s, like, having meetings with, like, the whole ABC team, like, the whole internal ABC team, and I’m like, dude.
260 00:28:37.160 ⇒ 00:28:49.009 Uttam Kumaran: fuck meeting with more people, like, call Sam and say, Sam, I need you to give me these hours, like, so that I can put this thing together. Like, go give me those hours. I said.
261 00:28:49.050 ⇒ 00:28:58.239 Uttam Kumaran: Mustafa and Casey need to be able to have really crisp tickets to take on, because then, how are you gonna know, like, I asked him.
262 00:28:58.280 ⇒ 00:29:10.450 Uttam Kumaran: what did you notice on this project? He’s like, we’re spending so much time on this migration, and, like, clearly we were wasting all time. I said, yes. Like, so, without clear tickets for those folks, they’re gonna work on stuff you don’t want them to work on.
263 00:29:10.450 ⇒ 00:29:21.749 Uttam Kumaran: And so I’m like, your job is to take whatever plan that we’ve set forth and execute it, but you need to plan, you need to do that, and then you turn those into tickets, and you need to wake up every day and move the tickets forward.
264 00:29:21.820 ⇒ 00:29:22.660 Uttam Kumaran: Like.
265 00:29:23.080 ⇒ 00:29:31.450 Uttam Kumaran: I think even that, I think, clicked for him really well, and I was like, okay, someone needs to go… that… someone needs to go do this for…
266 00:29:31.760 ⇒ 00:29:36.599 Uttam Kumaran: For each one of our team members, and guide them into, like, nailing each standard, you know?
267 00:29:36.600 ⇒ 00:29:37.150 Robert Tseng: Hmm.
268 00:29:39.020 ⇒ 00:29:46.699 Uttam Kumaran: Similarly for Sam, someone has to call Sam and be like, hey Sam, here’s what being a great service lead is. It’s not only managing
269 00:29:47.080 ⇒ 00:30:03.369 Uttam Kumaran: like, emotional stuff for Casey and Mustafa, it’s making sure that any AI service that… that any client that pulls from the AI service bucket, like, they are… they’re getting proper estimates, they’re using the latest technology, and
270 00:30:03.510 ⇒ 00:30:07.680 Uttam Kumaran: the sales engineering stuff, like, there’s things for us to demo.
271 00:30:07.750 ⇒ 00:30:26.129 Uttam Kumaran: But I just, like, I haven’t done that. Like, there’s nobody to do that. Like, so, my job is, I’m like, I’m gonna set the standards, but, like, the standard adherence, and then the people getting upskilled to hit those, or moving out, has, like, I don’t think I have any time for. And I don’t think we have people to do that right now.
272 00:30:26.530 ⇒ 00:30:30.969 Uttam Kumaran: So, like, I’m kind of, like, resistant to bring on more people.
273 00:30:31.830 ⇒ 00:30:43.339 Uttam Kumaran: unless they’re senior, and they’re, like… like, Jasmine, I think, is great, like, I think she’s really close to that. But still, I think there’s probably things that, like, she could learn from… from stuff we have written, right? Yeah. And…
274 00:30:45.160 ⇒ 00:30:47.889 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, that’s sort of, like, what I’m thinking.
275 00:30:50.430 ⇒ 00:30:51.050 Robert Tseng: Okay.
276 00:30:51.250 ⇒ 00:30:57.620 Robert Tseng: Yeah, so send me what you can for, kind of, the eval… Sure. Like, the matrix for… I’ve still got to talk to Garrett, I’ll take it, I’ll take it.
277 00:30:57.620 ⇒ 00:30:58.619 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
278 00:30:59.950 ⇒ 00:31:00.770 Robert Tseng: Yeah.
279 00:31:09.540 ⇒ 00:31:10.260 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
280 00:31:10.260 ⇒ 00:31:32.509 Robert Tseng: Yeah, I mean, so, I mean, last thought is, okay, so, I mean, obviously we wrote this, like, giant doc for, kind of, delivery, we restructured it, got people into these different roles, we’ve adjusted the roles since, kind of eliminated EP, this quarter goes by, we don’t feel like we were clear enough on, like, what standards they needed to adhere to, so, there’s not… there’s not so much enforceability of that.
281 00:31:32.600 ⇒ 00:31:41.149 Robert Tseng: On the sales side, kind of different narrative. It’s like, there wasn’t so much writing, but, like, I had built the system. It’s, like, very clear, like, where the team performed or underperformed.
282 00:31:41.180 ⇒ 00:31:55.039 Robert Tseng: So I think I feel… I feel very comfortable being like, okay, people don’t get bonuses, Q1, like, you guys didn’t hit these, like, things. If anything, I’m like, it’s the opposite, like, I need to be able to write… I need to be able to articulate the standards better, and I mean.
283 00:31:55.730 ⇒ 00:32:14.980 Robert Tseng: Yeah, I think, like, in a way that it’s not just purely in the metrics, because it’s clear that, like, somebody like Luke doesn’t know the levers that he could use to actually move those metrics. And so, yeah, it’s like, it’s the opposite problem, where maybe not having, like, the Brainforge
284 00:32:14.980 ⇒ 00:32:17.159 Robert Tseng: Building, building the forge, like Doc.
285 00:32:17.160 ⇒ 00:32:32.419 Robert Tseng: on the… on the sales side, kind of, like, was… maybe that would have been more helpful for… for… for him. But anyway, so I’m just trying to, like, kind of see… I… I’m just seeing that, I think, on the… that… that’s… that’s… that’s what I’m seeing on both the sales and the delivery side.
286 00:32:34.460 ⇒ 00:32:53.309 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, on the sales side, I mean, I think, like, what you laid out going into the quarter was very clear. I think Luke came in, inherited, like, a lot of distraction, and then got distracted, and I don’t think he is decisive enough to have seen this Ryan thing two months ago.
287 00:32:53.390 ⇒ 00:32:59.859 Uttam Kumaran: Like, I think he just went with the flow and didn’t impart his control over the situation.
288 00:32:59.980 ⇒ 00:33:06.919 Uttam Kumaran: And that is something that I called him, and I told him that I would like to see that, like, I would like to see a change there. Like…
289 00:33:06.920 ⇒ 00:33:07.610 Robert Tseng: Yeah.
290 00:33:07.740 ⇒ 00:33:08.410 Robert Tseng: I wrote…
291 00:33:08.410 ⇒ 00:33:09.220 Uttam Kumaran: A performance review.
292 00:33:09.220 ⇒ 00:33:09.790 Robert Tseng: Doc for.
293 00:33:09.790 ⇒ 00:33:10.130 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
294 00:33:10.130 ⇒ 00:33:11.140 Robert Tseng: turn it into a skill.
295 00:33:11.140 ⇒ 00:33:12.720 Uttam Kumaran: I read it, I read it.
296 00:33:12.720 ⇒ 00:33:13.230 Robert Tseng: Yeah.
297 00:33:13.230 ⇒ 00:33:25.909 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I read it briefly, it was good. I mean, I told him that, dude, just do the things that are on that sheet, do all the inputs, wake up, spend 2 hours DMing people, you will learn what it is.
298 00:33:26.090 ⇒ 00:33:29.940 Uttam Kumaran: And then don’t do anything else, like, stop doing anything else, like…
299 00:33:30.150 ⇒ 00:33:48.750 Uttam Kumaran: he’s messaging me about, like, oh, Ryan was doing this SEO stuff. I’m like, I’ll take it. What else? I’ll take it. What else? Like, drop… do the thing, otherwise you’re gonna get fired. Like, it’s like, do the fucking thing that moves the numbers. And I think Artie, who I’m excited for you to talk to as well, is gonna… is gonna say.
300 00:33:49.290 ⇒ 00:33:52.609 Uttam Kumaran: is gonna say that in fewer words. Yeah.
301 00:33:52.940 ⇒ 00:33:56.350 Uttam Kumaran: Because I called him and was sort of giving us a spiel, he’s like, dude, but, like.
302 00:33:57.340 ⇒ 00:34:01.339 Uttam Kumaran: are they… what is he doing in 8 hours? Like, how many people is he calling? And I’m like.
303 00:34:01.860 ⇒ 00:34:05.149 Uttam Kumaran: Probably… you’re not gonna like the answer, probably not enough.
304 00:34:05.360 ⇒ 00:34:13.490 Uttam Kumaran: And, I think… I think… I think your decision is gonna be more on, like.
305 00:34:14.010 ⇒ 00:34:17.049 Uttam Kumaran: I feel like looking at that doc, I was like.
306 00:34:17.830 ⇒ 00:34:26.669 Uttam Kumaran: it seems like you’re… you’re pushing him to the partnerships and more slow marketing, and I think what you have to…
307 00:34:27.010 ⇒ 00:34:37.519 Uttam Kumaran: I don’t think we can do that without having even more measurement and, like, and stuff that actually gets done there, because hopping on a call and riffing is not enough.
308 00:34:37.630 ⇒ 00:34:38.310 Uttam Kumaran: I told.
309 00:34:38.310 ⇒ 00:34:53.710 Robert Tseng: He’s not taking any discovery calls, I’ll take them all. Anything he books, I’ll take it. Or I’ll tell him it’s not worth my time taking it, and we just don’t take it. Like, I feel like he spent… he, like, he spent a lot of time in, like, random discos with, like, random people that were nowhere near qualified for us.
310 00:34:54.199 ⇒ 00:34:54.829 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
311 00:34:55.400 ⇒ 00:34:56.689 Robert Tseng: Yeah, none of his calls…
312 00:34:56.699 ⇒ 00:34:58.429 Uttam Kumaran: Whereas, I think, like…
313 00:35:01.580 ⇒ 00:35:03.360 Robert Tseng: Minus DLG, that was the only one.
314 00:35:03.360 ⇒ 00:35:04.020 Uttam Kumaran: Maybe, like…
315 00:35:04.020 ⇒ 00:35:04.630 Robert Tseng: Yes.
316 00:35:04.780 ⇒ 00:35:05.290 Uttam Kumaran: Kit.
317 00:35:05.580 ⇒ 00:35:06.380 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
318 00:35:07.990 ⇒ 00:35:18.579 Uttam Kumaran: So that’s where… but I think if you’re gonna move him towards partnerships, then there are some metrics that then you just have to… because I think what he’s lacking is he’s not closing the tackle on any of this stuff, like…
319 00:35:18.580 ⇒ 00:35:19.849 Robert Tseng: Yeah. And I will build out…
320 00:35:19.850 ⇒ 00:35:22.750 Uttam Kumaran: Call some of these partners, and then learn how to drive them.
321 00:35:23.490 ⇒ 00:35:32.120 Robert Tseng: But I’m kind of laying the stage to be, like, kind of… I’m going… I’m gonna send something to Jarrell, but I want Jarrell to come in and just be the guy who just builds pipeline. Like, I think he’s closer to the.
322 00:35:32.120 ⇒ 00:35:37.740 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, oh, I was gonna say, can you text me his number? I’ll just call. I wanted to call him today.
323 00:35:38.420 ⇒ 00:35:46.709 Robert Tseng: Okay. Yeah, well, I… he… he told me to send him some stuff, but, like, yeah, I’ll give you… I’ll give you… I’ll throw this in a group chat, and then I’ll also kind of slide… slide the doc over.
324 00:35:46.710 ⇒ 00:35:50.589 Uttam Kumaran: Call him and hypeen up and try to get him to start on Monday.
325 00:35:50.590 ⇒ 00:36:06.360 Robert Tseng: Yeah, I mean, he’s not… he’s free, like, he’s just working on his, like, dad’s Philippines business in the evening, and I think he’s, like, he’s got, like, the skin, the facade, like, he’s got, like, the bullshit-ness that you need for the.
326 00:36:06.360 ⇒ 00:36:07.099 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
327 00:36:07.100 ⇒ 00:36:11.909 Robert Tseng: to do that. I don’t… I don’t think Luke… Luke can do it, so… yeah.
328 00:36:13.210 ⇒ 00:36:17.909 Uttam Kumaran: But then, I better see some fucking great marketing, and some great design, and some, like…
329 00:36:18.090 ⇒ 00:36:22.990 Uttam Kumaran: Because, dude, this is where, like, that team doesn’t understand. I was running that team with Ryan alone.
330 00:36:22.990 ⇒ 00:36:24.080 Robert Tseng: Yeah.
331 00:36:24.080 ⇒ 00:36:27.990 Uttam Kumaran: To go back to doing that with 10… with 15% of my time.
332 00:36:28.100 ⇒ 00:36:28.840 Uttam Kumaran: So, like.
333 00:36:28.840 ⇒ 00:36:29.390 Robert Tseng: Yeah.
334 00:36:29.980 ⇒ 00:36:35.080 Uttam Kumaran: what I don’t want to hear is that these things are taking… like, I really cannot hear shit like that, like…
335 00:36:35.390 ⇒ 00:36:51.729 Uttam Kumaran: I’m like, dude, what are you do… like, what is going on? Like, how could you be spending any amount of time? Like, I did all the designs with an external team alone. Like, I could just go back and do that. So, I think what… if he’s gonna go all in on partnerships and slower marketing stuff, like…
336 00:36:52.040 ⇒ 00:36:56.970 Uttam Kumaran: The pressure to get results just increases, because that stuff is usually…
337 00:36:57.360 ⇒ 00:37:00.089 Uttam Kumaran: It’s usually tougher to show the results.
338 00:37:00.880 ⇒ 00:37:02.310 Robert Tseng: Oh, I just need him to show NC.
339 00:37:02.310 ⇒ 00:37:03.720 Uttam Kumaran: It’s usually tougher to pay the ROI.
340 00:37:03.720 ⇒ 00:37:07.620 Robert Tseng: SQL to SQL pipeline, if you can… if you can bring at least
341 00:37:07.620 ⇒ 00:37:32.200 Robert Tseng: marketing that end up coming into our pipeline, that’s fine. I’m not gonna put him on the hook for closing deals. I just think that he can’t… I don’t think that’s his strength. But yeah, like, he needs to be able to show how he’s bringing in… and then… and so that’s, like, on… on the marketing side. But then I think, you know, if we’re betting on, like, this brand narrative, as you’re working on the Vixel deck, prepping for VixelCon the next couple months, and we’re gonna go on this roadshow and hype up the new Brainforce story.
342 00:37:32.250 ⇒ 00:37:38.720 Robert Tseng: he needs to be the one who’s, like, driving that narrative with you, so that he can kind of build that out. Do you believe that he could do that with you?
343 00:37:41.480 ⇒ 00:37:42.720 Uttam Kumaran: I don’t know.
344 00:37:43.850 ⇒ 00:37:46.930 Uttam Kumaran: like… Yeah.
345 00:37:48.440 ⇒ 00:37:52.689 Uttam Kumaran: I don’t know, and I… I don’t… I don’t… I don’t… I don’t have an… I don’t know who else could.
346 00:37:53.020 ⇒ 00:37:53.610 Robert Tseng: Yeah.
347 00:37:55.500 ⇒ 00:38:03.049 Uttam Kumaran: But… like, I think he is learning more from us than we’re learning from him at this point.
348 00:38:03.520 ⇒ 00:38:04.630 Uttam Kumaran: Oh, cool.
349 00:38:04.630 ⇒ 00:38:05.250 Robert Tseng: Yeah.
350 00:38:11.760 ⇒ 00:38:12.370 Uttam Kumaran: So…
351 00:38:12.370 ⇒ 00:38:17.880 Robert Tseng: I think that that’s probably, like, I would give him, if we pivot him this way.
352 00:38:18.020 ⇒ 00:38:26.840 Robert Tseng: I would give him until VixelCon, just to see, like, if he would be able to actually write… yeah, I don’t want… I mean, you’re obviously gonna…
353 00:38:26.840 ⇒ 00:38:35.710 Uttam Kumaran: I think that’s… no, that’s why I think you should bring… we should get Jar-El in faster. Yeah. Because then it’ll be really clear, and then there’s a way out.
354 00:38:36.020 ⇒ 00:38:36.580 Robert Tseng: Yeah.
355 00:38:36.580 ⇒ 00:38:44.219 Uttam Kumaran: And you should talk… and you should… I think you should spend, like, 10-15 minutes with Artie, too, before talking to him, and tell him this is, like.
356 00:38:44.470 ⇒ 00:38:50.110 Uttam Kumaran: we’re probably… yeah, I think thinking about it, like, hey, we have another 45 days, Bye.
357 00:38:51.370 ⇒ 00:38:53.350 Uttam Kumaran: You gotta make some money for us.
358 00:38:55.720 ⇒ 00:38:56.330 Robert Tseng: Yeah.
359 00:38:56.730 ⇒ 00:38:57.390 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
360 00:38:59.950 ⇒ 00:39:05.319 Robert Tseng: Yeah, I’m talking to Artie on my… I mean, he’s… we’re not gonna end up talking this week, but he… I mean, I gave him my…
361 00:39:05.320 ⇒ 00:39:17.779 Uttam Kumaran: I’m seeing him this weekend, like, so… but I… he already knows a little bit about it, I think he’s just gonna be helpful. I mean, dude, we should try to see if we can fucking get Artie, but that’s a longer-term play I’m trying to make.
362 00:39:18.000 ⇒ 00:39:21.339 Uttam Kumaran: That’s really good, you’ll like him. Yeah, he’s really good, but
363 00:39:22.900 ⇒ 00:39:29.220 Uttam Kumaran: Okay, so I think, yeah, I’m just gonna try to survive today and tomorrow. I think,
364 00:39:30.070 ⇒ 00:39:34.230 Uttam Kumaran: I’ll work on this stuff for you and Garrett today.
365 00:39:35.670 ⇒ 00:39:41.590 Uttam Kumaran: I think I’ll have somebody present on, like, standards and stuff on… Tomorrow and Monday.
366 00:39:42.000 ⇒ 00:39:43.170 Uttam Kumaran: And then…
367 00:39:43.760 ⇒ 00:39:48.590 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I like your plan of, like, between now and VixelCon, like, if you’re moving to this other role.
368 00:39:48.950 ⇒ 00:39:51.449 Uttam Kumaran: We gotta see some fat wins.
369 00:39:51.580 ⇒ 00:40:05.019 Uttam Kumaran: like, he’s… this is where I’m gonna give him some feedback that, like, dude, do not waste your time figuring out clay, figuring out instantly, like, dude, just do the things that you’re great at and show money, otherwise it’s gonna be rough.
370 00:40:05.150 ⇒ 00:40:06.000 Uttam Kumaran: You know?
371 00:40:06.300 ⇒ 00:40:06.930 Robert Tseng: Yeah.
372 00:40:08.850 ⇒ 00:40:13.380 Uttam Kumaran: I… I really want… I really… I’m gonna give… maybe try to give that feedback tomorrow as well, which is, like.
373 00:40:13.780 ⇒ 00:40:18.770 Uttam Kumaran: You are trying… you… like, yeah, the… It’s… it’s like…
374 00:40:19.790 ⇒ 00:40:36.590 Uttam Kumaran: I don’t know, you’re trying too much stuff, like, you need to just try the things that you know are surefire bets and just do them. Like, hit the webinar super, super hard, like, make sure those translate into leads, like, make sure that more partners want to do those, like, show that, you know, and don’t do anything else.
375 00:40:40.370 ⇒ 00:40:41.010 Robert Tseng: Yep.
376 00:40:41.570 ⇒ 00:40:42.220 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
377 00:40:44.070 ⇒ 00:40:44.720 Uttam Kumaran: Okay.
378 00:40:44.720 ⇒ 00:40:45.390 Robert Tseng: Okay.
379 00:40:45.990 ⇒ 00:40:46.820 Uttam Kumaran: Alright.
380 00:40:47.930 ⇒ 00:40:49.010 Uttam Kumaran: I’ll talk to you soon, then.
381 00:40:49.010 ⇒ 00:40:50.360 Robert Tseng: Talk to you later. Bye.
382 00:40:50.360 ⇒ 00:40:51.040 Uttam Kumaran: Okay, cool.