Meeting Title: Brainforge x Utam Architecture Discussion Date: 2026-03-11 Meeting participants: Samuel Roberts, Clarence Stone
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1 00:01:56.100 ⇒ 00:01:57.940 Clarence Stone: Hey, sorry I’m late.
2 00:01:58.770 ⇒ 00:02:03.370 Clarence Stone: Zoom is like, would you like to update? And I just… I hit yes, and I shouldn’t have.
3 00:02:06.750 ⇒ 00:02:08.400 Clarence Stone: I can’t hear you.
4 00:02:08.400 ⇒ 00:02:13.820 Samuel Roberts: Oh, sorry, there we go. I keep forgetting there’s a button on the mic, and every time I move it, I hit it. What were you saying, update? I missed it.
5 00:02:14.000 ⇒ 00:02:15.980 Clarence Stone: Zoom is like, would you like to update.
6 00:02:15.980 ⇒ 00:02:16.740 Samuel Roberts: Oh, yeah.
7 00:02:16.740 ⇒ 00:02:19.290 Clarence Stone: Frickin’ hit yes, it got me!
8 00:02:19.290 ⇒ 00:02:20.420 Samuel Roberts: Got you, yeah.
9 00:02:21.140 ⇒ 00:02:22.450 Samuel Roberts: Oh, man.
10 00:02:22.770 ⇒ 00:02:23.630 Clarence Stone: Is there…
11 00:02:23.970 ⇒ 00:02:41.720 Clarence Stone: I’ll make it super quick, because I know, like, you know, we’re kind of busy, and I’m coming in meetings today, but long story short, Utam is finally feeling that fire and the burn to get, that, work platform that I made set up. Yeah.
12 00:02:41.810 ⇒ 00:02:43.120 Samuel Roberts: Yeah, tell me more about that.
13 00:02:43.120 ⇒ 00:02:44.200 Clarence Stone: I feel like I don’t have…
14 00:02:44.200 ⇒ 00:02:45.110 Samuel Roberts: A ton of the context.
15 00:02:45.110 ⇒ 00:02:48.690 Clarence Stone: And then, like, just talk through some architectural concepts.
16 00:02:48.690 ⇒ 00:02:49.320 Samuel Roberts: Cool.
17 00:02:50.950 ⇒ 00:02:51.710 Samuel Roberts: Okay.
18 00:02:51.990 ⇒ 00:02:56.919 Clarence Stone: Yeah, so, you know what? I… I’ll just show it to you.
19 00:02:57.260 ⇒ 00:02:58.410 Samuel Roberts: Cool.
20 00:02:58.410 ⇒ 00:03:02.199 Clarence Stone: Some background, like, my specialty is front-end development.
21 00:03:02.520 ⇒ 00:03:14.870 Clarence Stone: Like, so I will take ugly things, make it super usable, right? And, like, when it comes to, like, the data hooks or architecture, I’m just like, I don’t know, I made it happen, I just…
22 00:03:14.870 ⇒ 00:03:16.399 Samuel Roberts: Right, right, no, yeah.
23 00:03:16.980 ⇒ 00:03:24.899 Clarence Stone: So let me, let me just share with you what it is that I did, because, it’s pretty interesting, like, it is a mixture of…
24 00:03:25.400 ⇒ 00:03:31.280 Clarence Stone: Like, some of these open claw properties of doing tiered memory, Right?
25 00:03:31.460 ⇒ 00:03:38.089 Clarence Stone: But it’s also running off of a coding solution, Open code.
26 00:03:38.570 ⇒ 00:03:45.700 Clarence Stone: And I just took OpenWork, this open source software, and just redid all of their UI.
27 00:03:46.580 ⇒ 00:03:47.200 Samuel Roberts: Okay.
28 00:03:47.810 ⇒ 00:03:55.819 Clarence Stone: Right. And when I plugged this stuff into y’all’s, like, environment, things got so good.
29 00:03:56.580 ⇒ 00:03:57.480 Clarence Stone: like…
30 00:03:57.690 ⇒ 00:04:03.199 Clarence Stone: I don’t know how to explain it, like, I mean, you know, we had, Utam was like, hey, this…
31 00:04:04.230 ⇒ 00:04:21.600 Clarence Stone: this VC wants to do some projects with us, right? And because, like, in OpenClaw, I was creating these loops and creating a specialized knowledge stack for consulting, like, outputs combined with y’all’s data just ended up being, like, monstrously good.
32 00:04:21.839 ⇒ 00:04:23.110 Clarence Stone: Right, so…
33 00:04:23.390 ⇒ 00:04:33.630 Clarence Stone: I just dropped these two things in, I was like, hey, this is your tech stack, what would you do? Tell me what to do, what’s the value prop, blah blah blah. It gives me the value proposition.
34 00:04:33.760 ⇒ 00:04:35.589 Clarence Stone: what demos I should build?
35 00:04:36.350 ⇒ 00:04:36.950 Samuel Roberts: Yes.
36 00:04:38.330 ⇒ 00:04:39.120 Clarence Stone: Right.
37 00:04:39.120 ⇒ 00:04:42.259 Samuel Roberts: And the strategy and how to pitch it.
38 00:04:43.230 ⇒ 00:04:46.790 Samuel Roberts: So what is this that’s pulling just from what you shared, or is it…
39 00:04:46.980 ⇒ 00:04:48.639 Samuel Roberts: Connected to other things right now.
40 00:04:48.640 ⇒ 00:04:56.630 Clarence Stone: So, this is connected to the repo, and the way, like, OpenWork works is, like, it’s… each of these workspaces are segmented.
41 00:04:57.590 ⇒ 00:04:58.750 Samuel Roberts: Oh, right, right, right, okay.
42 00:04:58.750 ⇒ 00:05:07.759 Clarence Stone: Right? So, like, you have this amazing data boundary, and because it’s built on top of open code, it runs local models, too.
43 00:05:08.570 ⇒ 00:05:14.550 Clarence Stone: So when I started telling enterprises this, they were like, holy shit, what magician, like, are you? Right?
44 00:05:14.550 ⇒ 00:05:14.900 Samuel Roberts: it.
45 00:05:14.900 ⇒ 00:05:24.069 Clarence Stone: And, I actually demoed this for EY, and, like, the people in the office were like, this is the first, like, real-life demo of Frontier technology we’ve ever seen.
46 00:05:24.330 ⇒ 00:05:26.010 Samuel Roberts: I bet.
47 00:05:26.010 ⇒ 00:05:31.150 Clarence Stone: Right? Because, like, they’ve never seen outputs like this. Like, how to anchor on pricing and pushback?
48 00:05:31.150 ⇒ 00:05:32.330 Samuel Roberts: Right.
49 00:05:32.330 ⇒ 00:05:34.689 Clarence Stone: Went, like, with this lazy-ass prompt.
50 00:05:35.050 ⇒ 00:05:35.370 Samuel Roberts: He does.
51 00:05:35.790 ⇒ 00:05:37.869 Samuel Roberts: Yeah, right, because they don’t… yeah.
52 00:05:37.870 ⇒ 00:05:38.670 Clarence Stone: Right?
53 00:05:38.930 ⇒ 00:05:48.020 Clarence Stone: So, there’s a lot of magic here, right? And UTAM’s vision is that we make this the next platform, we start pitching work through this.
54 00:05:48.220 ⇒ 00:05:49.220 Clarence Stone: Right?
55 00:05:49.380 ⇒ 00:05:52.439 Clarence Stone: Sam, you froze, I don’t know if it’s me.
56 00:05:52.440 ⇒ 00:05:55.020 Samuel Roberts: Oh, I… I’m hearing you. Yeah.
57 00:05:56.750 ⇒ 00:05:57.829 Samuel Roberts: Can you hear me?
58 00:05:59.220 ⇒ 00:06:00.319 Clarence Stone: Yeah, I can hear you.
59 00:06:00.320 ⇒ 00:06:03.109 Samuel Roberts: Okay, cool. Am I frozen video, or…
60 00:06:03.700 ⇒ 00:06:06.180 Clarence Stone: You’re a little choppy, you know what? I’m gonna do this.
61 00:06:07.270 ⇒ 00:06:08.750 Clarence Stone: Better?
62 00:06:08.750 ⇒ 00:06:12.860 Samuel Roberts: Yeah, I might do the same just to make sure which end it is. Alright, yeah. Yeah.
63 00:06:13.110 ⇒ 00:06:13.770 Samuel Roberts: Cool.
64 00:06:13.770 ⇒ 00:06:24.739 Clarence Stone: Oh, much better audio. Okay, great. So Utom’s vision is that, like, we start shipping with this wrapper, regardless of whether they buy some skills, some MCPs, or the whole damn thing.
65 00:06:25.280 ⇒ 00:06:26.470 Samuel Roberts: Mmm, okay.
66 00:06:26.470 ⇒ 00:06:31.179 Clarence Stone: They have to live in a very poor driver and know that they didn’t buy anything else.
67 00:06:32.360 ⇒ 00:06:36.140 Samuel Roberts: Right… Okay.
68 00:06:38.060 ⇒ 00:06:40.940 Clarence Stone: So, yeah, go for it.
69 00:06:40.940 ⇒ 00:06:52.020 Samuel Roberts: Yeah, I was just… okay, so I’m… I mean, I’m… I feel like I’ve been getting, like, bits and pieces of this whole thing, like, I’ve seen some PRs, and I’ve seen… I’ve heard… I just… I’m trying to, like, wrap my head around the whole thing. So this was…
70 00:06:53.550 ⇒ 00:06:56.349 Samuel Roberts: So, for selling this to clients, like, what is this…
71 00:06:56.820 ⇒ 00:06:58.739 Samuel Roberts: I guess that… yeah, I’m not sure… so there…
72 00:06:59.080 ⇒ 00:07:04.100 Samuel Roberts: The way we’re selling this would be as a… Product to them?
73 00:07:05.040 ⇒ 00:07:07.780 Samuel Roberts: With the tools or not with the tools, is that what you’re saying?
74 00:07:08.620 ⇒ 00:07:27.120 Clarence Stone: Yeah, so there’s, like, two models that I think work out, right? If we have, like, a client like Lilo, we would actually just sell them the whole stack. We would give them cloud services, right, and then give them this wrapper. If there was a customer that’s just like, I have 3 use cases, we can just
75 00:07:27.460 ⇒ 00:07:29.840 Clarence Stone: Make this a deployable application.
76 00:07:29.970 ⇒ 00:07:34.900 Clarence Stone: Right? And just lock everything else down except for the skills and extensions that they bought.
77 00:07:34.900 ⇒ 00:07:37.300 Samuel Roberts: Okay, okay, I see what you’re saying. Cool, cool. Okay.
78 00:07:37.300 ⇒ 00:07:43.139 Clarence Stone: Right? And dude, I’m the most evil UX designer. I’m literally gonna gray out the buttons they didn’t buy.
79 00:07:43.140 ⇒ 00:07:44.160 Samuel Roberts: Oh, yeah, definitely.
80 00:07:44.160 ⇒ 00:07:46.999 Clarence Stone: You will suffer if you’re not gonna pay us.
81 00:07:47.000 ⇒ 00:07:48.430 Samuel Roberts: Right, right.
82 00:07:49.440 ⇒ 00:07:55.629 Clarence Stone: Right. So, okay, with that, we’ll probably go back and cover, I’m gonna stop sharing.
83 00:07:55.630 ⇒ 00:07:59.190 Samuel Roberts: Yeah, sure. With that, like, what I need your help with is…
84 00:07:59.190 ⇒ 00:08:06.799 Clarence Stone: I don’t fucking understand architecture, bro. And I think the simplest way to do this is
85 00:08:06.970 ⇒ 00:08:10.249 Clarence Stone: If you take a look at the open work yet, I’ll send you the link.
86 00:08:10.250 ⇒ 00:08:10.910 Samuel Roberts: Okay, cool.
87 00:08:10.910 ⇒ 00:08:25.479 Clarence Stone: it sets up a host site, like a host location, that runs the open code, the MCPs, stores the skills and does the distribution of skills, and manages automation in crons.
88 00:08:26.060 ⇒ 00:08:26.650 Samuel Roberts: Okay.
89 00:08:26.800 ⇒ 00:08:37.730 Clarence Stone: Right? So the user side is literally just hooking into that. Their workspaces could be private on their computer, or if they decide to share it, it’s served through some Docker container.
90 00:08:37.809 ⇒ 00:08:39.119 Samuel Roberts: Sure, sure.
91 00:08:39.120 ⇒ 00:08:44.099 Clarence Stone: Right. So there’s, like, two paths that we can go. Like, I’d like you to just, like.
92 00:08:44.670 ⇒ 00:08:51.109 Clarence Stone: look at it, right? Because, like, one, the normal codebase doesn’t have any auth, and I thought that was the weirdest thing.
93 00:08:52.210 ⇒ 00:08:53.040 Samuel Roberts: Oh, really?
94 00:08:53.040 ⇒ 00:09:01.279 Clarence Stone: Yeah, so there’s something, like, I don’t know what they’re trying to do, but I would require, like, I think having, like, a Google OAuth on a client.
95 00:09:01.280 ⇒ 00:09:01.700 Samuel Roberts: inside.
96 00:09:01.700 ⇒ 00:09:11.489 Clarence Stone: It’s beautiful, right? And then you just automatically hook into the Google Workspace CLI, and then, like, we’re done, right? Like, with general office things, right?
97 00:09:11.880 ⇒ 00:09:24.089 Clarence Stone: And, the normal stack also doesn’t have great context management. The backbone of how I redid this was using Obsidian as the store for all these workspaces.
98 00:09:24.280 ⇒ 00:09:25.650 Samuel Roberts: Oh, interesting, okay.
99 00:09:25.650 ⇒ 00:09:28.840 Clarence Stone: Right? And because it’s a knowledge graph, you’re just so much better.
100 00:09:28.840 ⇒ 00:09:29.560 Samuel Roberts: Right, right, right.
101 00:09:29.560 ⇒ 00:09:46.060 Clarence Stone: Right. So, like, I built a lot of customizations on top, but I’m not, like, attached to it. Like, we have to start clean with, like, open work, because it’s just easier to implement, and I’m, like, two versions back, because it’s been, like, a month and a half now. That’s fine.
102 00:09:46.060 ⇒ 00:09:51.410 Clarence Stone: Right, but UTCOM wants to know how we can possibly get it in, like, a…
103 00:09:51.590 ⇒ 00:09:55.260 Clarence Stone: Like, a host user kind of situation.
104 00:09:55.260 ⇒ 00:09:55.840 Samuel Roberts: Yeah.
105 00:09:56.210 ⇒ 00:10:03.270 Clarence Stone: My personal opinion, after thinking about it deeply, was because all of these things are technically all microservices.
106 00:10:03.840 ⇒ 00:10:14.290 Clarence Stone: Right? Like, I did a recon, and I was like, guys, I just need these endpoints. Like, I’m a front-end developer. If you give me the connections, I won’t just do the rest, you won’t even have to, like, talk to me.
107 00:10:14.530 ⇒ 00:10:28.189 Clarence Stone: But, like, the data doesn’t exist, I’m just gonna, like, literally cobble shit together, right? And my custom intent systems are slow, the memory’s slow now, because I just stack so much shit. There’s so many MCPs, right?
108 00:10:28.190 ⇒ 00:10:28.640 Samuel Roberts: Right.
109 00:10:28.640 ⇒ 00:10:40.180 Clarence Stone: All running on my laptop, I only have 16 gigs. So, I think, like, you know, the cleanest, fastest way would be, let’s take a look at how OpenWorks work works today.
110 00:10:40.180 ⇒ 00:10:41.280 Samuel Roberts: And then…
111 00:10:41.280 ⇒ 00:10:50.219 Clarence Stone: you know, just set it up clean, microservice out, like, all the little components, because I think, like, that’s gonna be the best way for us to deliver to clients anyway, to say.
112 00:10:50.220 ⇒ 00:10:50.810 Samuel Roberts: Yeah.
113 00:10:50.810 ⇒ 00:10:58.380 Clarence Stone: yeah, you get this skill, but you don’t get this skill until you cancel the brain. Right? Right. And, and then, like.
114 00:10:58.540 ⇒ 00:11:03.829 Clarence Stone: Utama wants to be able to distribute skills and MCPs, like, in a standardized way.
115 00:11:04.370 ⇒ 00:11:09.599 Clarence Stone: Right? So, like, having, you know, some sort of microservice architecture would be good, but…
116 00:11:09.600 ⇒ 00:11:10.140 Samuel Roberts: Yeah.
117 00:11:10.530 ⇒ 00:11:20.930 Clarence Stone: If you can connect all of that to the default front end, I will just magically, overnight, do this. And then start adding in the memory pieces, right?
118 00:11:21.200 ⇒ 00:11:27.190 Clarence Stone: So, yeah, like, sort of think about, like, what the best approach is here, like…
119 00:11:27.670 ⇒ 00:11:35.360 Clarence Stone: like, he wants speed rather than, like, you know, having perfection. We can kind of figure out, like, the nuances later. I think,
120 00:11:35.640 ⇒ 00:11:42.849 Clarence Stone: you know, coding is just getting easier. So, like, it’s not that bad. Dude, I’m like a…
121 00:11:42.950 ⇒ 00:11:45.190 Clarence Stone: 3 out of 10 back in developer.
122 00:11:46.180 ⇒ 00:11:47.560 Clarence Stone: I made this.
123 00:11:47.560 ⇒ 00:11:52.570 Samuel Roberts: I mean, it’s crazy what’s doable now, like, I… the… it’s…
124 00:11:52.920 ⇒ 00:11:54.759 Samuel Roberts: I feel like I’m still not quite…
125 00:11:55.010 ⇒ 00:11:57.700 Samuel Roberts: and I feel comfortable with the kind of, like, out loop.
126 00:11:57.700 ⇒ 00:12:00.459 Clarence Stone: development, like, I’m still, like, in cursor, and, like.
127 00:12:00.510 ⇒ 00:12:15.460 Samuel Roberts: granted, a lot of things I was doing recently was, like, more environment stuff and setting up things that, like, I didn’t think it could handle, but there were a couple side projects, I just let it run, and I was like, oh, this is… I probably should trust this more than I do, but that’s probably because I’m not as… I don’t know, but…
128 00:12:15.870 ⇒ 00:12:17.150 Samuel Roberts: Okay, so…
129 00:12:17.630 ⇒ 00:12:24.579 Samuel Roberts: It’s the plan of attack. So you’ll send me the link, and then I’ll take a look at… so that’s the… the repo you have that you forked?
130 00:12:25.020 ⇒ 00:12:27.810 Samuel Roberts: And then I’ll also take a look at the regular repo.
131 00:12:27.810 ⇒ 00:12:28.460 Clarence Stone: Yeah.
132 00:12:28.460 ⇒ 00:12:28.869 Samuel Roberts: of work.
133 00:12:28.870 ⇒ 00:12:31.859 Clarence Stone: repo is in our private GitHub in… Okay.
134 00:12:31.970 ⇒ 00:12:34.560 Clarence Stone: But I’ll show you the original repo.
135 00:12:34.560 ⇒ 00:12:35.180 Samuel Roberts: Okay.
136 00:12:35.340 ⇒ 00:12:41.150 Clarence Stone: And… I think, like, we should just keep it light for the first run, right? Like… Okay.
137 00:12:41.400 ⇒ 00:12:46.079 Clarence Stone: have it working in the web, have it OAuth?
138 00:12:46.360 ⇒ 00:12:51.219 Clarence Stone: And microservice out, or even just, like, single service out.
139 00:12:51.220 ⇒ 00:12:53.129 Samuel Roberts: Yeah, I was gonna say, for an initial, I don’t think it’s… yeah.
140 00:12:53.690 ⇒ 00:12:57.400 Clarence Stone: Right? And then we’ll deal with splitting it up later.
141 00:12:57.400 ⇒ 00:12:57.920 Samuel Roberts: Yeah.
142 00:12:57.920 ⇒ 00:13:00.170 Clarence Stone: MCPs, whatever it is, later on.
143 00:13:00.500 ⇒ 00:13:01.150 Samuel Roberts: Okay.
144 00:13:03.040 ⇒ 00:13:03.900 Samuel Roberts: Alright, cool.
145 00:13:03.900 ⇒ 00:13:07.450 Clarence Stone: Oh, by the way, the desktop app is written in Rust.
146 00:13:07.750 ⇒ 00:13:09.010 Clarence Stone: It’s Ataria.
147 00:13:09.010 ⇒ 00:13:11.190 Samuel Roberts: Is that a Toria? Okay.
148 00:13:11.410 ⇒ 00:13:15.580 Clarence Stone: I know Russ now. Utam saw it, he’s like, what is this disgusting shit? I was like.
149 00:13:15.580 ⇒ 00:13:21.650 Samuel Roberts: Yeah. I’ve watched so many videos of people being like, it’s great, but I don’t want to touch rust, kind of.
150 00:13:21.650 ⇒ 00:13:30.369 Clarence Stone: But now it doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter. Like, you can… yeah. Dude, I fixed so many front-end issues. Yeah, it’s…
151 00:13:30.880 ⇒ 00:13:41.010 Clarence Stone: Yeah, it’s… it’ll be cool. Like, if we can at least get the website done. But what I want to tell you is this is set up to be a harness.
152 00:13:41.390 ⇒ 00:13:43.319 Clarence Stone: Like, for the Atari app?
153 00:13:43.900 ⇒ 00:13:44.420 Samuel Roberts: Okay.
154 00:13:44.420 ⇒ 00:13:49.270 Clarence Stone: Which means it could technically just operate with the same power as cursor.
155 00:13:50.320 ⇒ 00:13:50.840 Samuel Roberts: Yeah.
156 00:13:51.030 ⇒ 00:13:53.310 Samuel Roberts: As in, put this on my desktop.
157 00:13:53.370 ⇒ 00:13:55.180 Clarence Stone: Go read my Slack.
158 00:13:55.500 ⇒ 00:13:56.400 Samuel Roberts: Right, right.
159 00:13:56.400 ⇒ 00:14:01.240 Clarence Stone: I’ve been doing this for the last month and a half, and my life has been so luxurious.
160 00:14:01.240 ⇒ 00:14:01.960 Samuel Roberts: Nice.
161 00:14:03.180 ⇒ 00:14:04.989 Clarence Stone: So, yeah, I mean…
162 00:14:05.250 ⇒ 00:14:17.910 Clarence Stone: that’s sort of the thing, like, I think we’re gonna, like, tomorrow we’ll take a longer block to, like, really discuss, but, South is taking a look at this already a little bit, he… I got pulled in at random… one random night.
163 00:14:17.910 ⇒ 00:14:26.310 Samuel Roberts: Yeah, yeah, he and Utam, like, it’s like… I wish I could more, but it’s so hard for me to… after 5 o’clock, certain days, it’s rough.
164 00:14:26.310 ⇒ 00:14:32.639 Clarence Stone: But yeah, they seem to, like, have a fun time. Like, he’s saying harness, harness, harness.
165 00:14:33.710 ⇒ 00:14:45.440 Samuel Roberts: Yeah, a little bit. Okay, all right, yeah, so you got pulled… so yeah, because they had both mentioned it to me that they had talked about it, and I was like, I’m getting, like, bits and pieces, but it’s like, okay, cool. Yeah, so tomorrow, we have some time blocked off. I’ll try to.
166 00:14:45.440 ⇒ 00:14:48.150 Clarence Stone: I hope you can, take a look.
167 00:14:48.150 ⇒ 00:14:55.420 Samuel Roberts: Yeah, yeah, no, I’ll, I’ll definitely dig in, 1230 tomorrow, okay. Okay, cool. Anything else I need to…
168 00:14:55.560 ⇒ 00:14:57.069 Samuel Roberts: you’re aware of, I guess, going into.
169 00:14:57.070 ⇒ 00:15:01.180 Clarence Stone: Yeah, there’s… this is an entire ecosystem.
170 00:15:01.300 ⇒ 00:15:09.429 Clarence Stone: I have built more things. I have a locally run recursive model that handles user intent.
171 00:15:09.780 ⇒ 00:15:15.890 Clarence Stone: It reads through every session that it’s connected to as an MCP, so it could even hook into your cursor.
172 00:15:16.180 ⇒ 00:15:18.009 Clarence Stone: I remember your preferences.
173 00:15:18.770 ⇒ 00:15:19.510 Samuel Roberts: Okay.
174 00:15:19.720 ⇒ 00:15:24.370 Clarence Stone: So, I’ve been using it across Gemini, Cursor, and Work, the Work app.
175 00:15:24.370 ⇒ 00:15:25.350 Samuel Roberts: Nice. Yeah.
176 00:15:25.350 ⇒ 00:15:31.049 Clarence Stone: And by the way, I’ve been calling it work, because it’s… it’s a spin-off of Claude Cowork.
177 00:15:31.660 ⇒ 00:15:32.250 Samuel Roberts: Sure.
178 00:15:32.490 ⇒ 00:15:35.470 Clarence Stone: And I want to make t-shirts that just say, work, work, work, work, work.
179 00:15:38.690 ⇒ 00:15:54.370 Clarence Stone: Nice. So there’s a custom memory system, there is an app that is supposed to be an assistant. Once we get the cloud containers running, there’s a 2 billion quen model that can send little requests over to the server.
180 00:15:55.610 ⇒ 00:15:57.499 Clarence Stone: And then say, hey, please do this.
181 00:15:58.040 ⇒ 00:15:58.670 Samuel Roberts: Okay.
182 00:15:58.670 ⇒ 00:16:06.680 Clarence Stone: Right? It allows you to, like, just pull documents, you know, simple, like, management things.
183 00:16:06.880 ⇒ 00:16:16.880 Clarence Stone: I think it’s gonna be helpful for executives, like, or even you, like, you know, if you just need to do something on the go. Like, my dream for this, Sam, is that people spend less time at their desks.
184 00:16:17.190 ⇒ 00:16:17.530 Samuel Roberts: Right.
185 00:16:17.530 ⇒ 00:16:23.509 Clarence Stone: find better, you know, uses of their time. You know, we have less demands of people every day.
186 00:16:23.510 ⇒ 00:16:24.020 Samuel Roberts: True.
187 00:16:24.020 ⇒ 00:16:27.760 Clarence Stone: And, you know, we go down to, like, 4 hours of calls every day, and then just.
188 00:16:27.760 ⇒ 00:16:28.350 Samuel Roberts: Right.
189 00:16:28.350 ⇒ 00:16:31.390 Clarence Stone: Really, just, like, the job is manage your frickin’ agents. You better.
190 00:16:31.710 ⇒ 00:16:33.050 Clarence Stone: problem, right?
191 00:16:34.300 ⇒ 00:16:42.490 Clarence Stone: So the last thing is, I’m going into really advanced harnesses. I… I have torn apart Hermes last night.
192 00:16:42.490 ⇒ 00:16:43.150 Samuel Roberts: Okay.
193 00:16:43.150 ⇒ 00:16:48.100 Clarence Stone: And I have Hermes working in a VPS, if you ever want to play with it.
194 00:16:48.280 ⇒ 00:16:48.890 Samuel Roberts: Okay.
195 00:16:48.990 ⇒ 00:16:54.319 Clarence Stone: But I have a local Hermes, and it’s… it’s in iterative RL loops.
196 00:16:54.710 ⇒ 00:16:55.380 Samuel Roberts: Okay.
197 00:16:55.580 ⇒ 00:17:03.210 Clarence Stone: And I think, you know, long-term vision is that what we need to attach to this work platform is an agent management stack.
198 00:17:04.089 ⇒ 00:17:23.060 Clarence Stone: Where, like, these Hermes are gonna be just running tools, and running skills, and you’re looking at outputs of those skills, and making sure that it’s correct, right? Making sure the crons worked. Because, like, that leads into the dream of, let’s not be at our desks every day.
199 00:17:23.069 ⇒ 00:17:23.759 Samuel Roberts: Right, right.
200 00:17:23.760 ⇒ 00:17:26.839 Clarence Stone: Right. Yeah. So…
201 00:17:27.140 ⇒ 00:17:34.270 Clarence Stone: the… that is, like, the technical strategy, but from a business side, like, I want every sale that we do
202 00:17:34.420 ⇒ 00:17:47.530 Clarence Stone: to lead to another sale. And if they buy our memory intent system and have custom MCPs for every single individual, with intent that carries over from platform to platform, well then, you probably want a work system.
203 00:17:47.800 ⇒ 00:17:58.009 Clarence Stone: If you have a work system, you probably want to manage your agents with it, right? Because you just have plain automations, right? So, like, this sticky, like, gravity factor only.
204 00:17:58.380 ⇒ 00:18:03.339 Clarence Stone: if we own a platform? We can’t deliver stuff in Cloud Code, like…
205 00:18:04.170 ⇒ 00:18:09.900 Clarence Stone: It’s like, you know, kind of making money after somebody else took the margins.
206 00:18:09.900 ⇒ 00:18:10.860 Samuel Roberts: Yeah.
207 00:18:11.470 ⇒ 00:18:14.529 Samuel Roberts: Yeah, no, I mean, this is exactly what I’ve been, like.
208 00:18:14.860 ⇒ 00:18:26.899 Samuel Roberts: waiting for, necessarily, but, like, the, the, like, pulling out the good stuff from, like, Cloud Code and co-work and all this other, like, I’m waiting, and this is, this is, yes, like, I don’t want to be pigeonholed into, like, one…
209 00:18:27.290 ⇒ 00:18:29.349 Samuel Roberts: I want our own, like, yeah.
210 00:18:30.660 ⇒ 00:18:33.539 Clarence Stone: Like, it’s been… it’s been a minute, and…
211 00:18:33.540 ⇒ 00:18:34.090 Samuel Roberts: Yeah.
212 00:18:34.090 ⇒ 00:18:36.670 Clarence Stone: Now everyone’s figured it out.
213 00:18:36.670 ⇒ 00:18:38.229 Samuel Roberts: Yeah, I was gonna say, yeah, we’re good.
214 00:18:38.230 ⇒ 00:18:38.690 Clarence Stone: And…
215 00:18:38.690 ⇒ 00:18:39.300 Samuel Roberts: Definitely.
216 00:18:39.380 ⇒ 00:18:48.999 Clarence Stone: But they don’t know the memory stacks, they don’t know about intent systems, they don’t have concepts like the counsel skill that Utam recently worked on.
217 00:18:49.000 ⇒ 00:18:49.820 Samuel Roberts: Yeah.
218 00:18:50.210 ⇒ 00:19:02.049 Clarence Stone: Right? I told him, like, think about the memory harness. If we just replace the random councils with real people, as in Sam reviews it from Sam’s perspective and Sam’s knowledge.
219 00:19:02.480 ⇒ 00:19:07.020 Clarence Stone: you know, cortex, like, that’s gonna be way more specific.
220 00:19:07.400 ⇒ 00:19:08.050 Samuel Roberts: Right.
221 00:19:08.210 ⇒ 00:19:09.000 Clarence Stone: Right?
222 00:19:09.280 ⇒ 00:19:16.979 Clarence Stone: So, like, there’s so much more we can do once we tap into our own harness. Otherwise, we’re beholden to others.
223 00:19:16.980 ⇒ 00:19:17.630 Samuel Roberts: Yeah.
224 00:19:17.630 ⇒ 00:19:18.420 Clarence Stone: Right, like…
225 00:19:18.910 ⇒ 00:19:26.809 Clarence Stone: This all happened in December, dude. I was playing around with OpenClaw, and I realized that I needed to see full agent traces.
226 00:19:28.600 ⇒ 00:19:38.899 Clarence Stone: And I got, like, the agent traces working in the dashboard, like, and then sub-agent traces, and then tool calls, and stuff like that, and I’m like, why can’t I do that with Cloud Code?
227 00:19:39.410 ⇒ 00:19:40.250 Samuel Roberts: Mmm.
228 00:19:40.530 ⇒ 00:19:41.820 Clarence Stone: They don’t want you to see it.
229 00:19:41.820 ⇒ 00:19:43.050 Samuel Roberts: No, yeah.
230 00:19:43.340 ⇒ 00:19:48.920 Clarence Stone: Right? And if you can’t do that, then you can’t really build great, like, context systems.
231 00:19:48.920 ⇒ 00:19:49.560 Samuel Roberts: Totally.
232 00:19:50.680 ⇒ 00:19:56.969 Clarence Stone: So, yeah, that’s sort of the strategy. Kind of noodle on it. This is, like, complicated, and there’s no…
233 00:19:57.190 ⇒ 00:19:58.690 Clarence Stone: Wax on, wax off.
234 00:19:58.690 ⇒ 00:20:00.700 Samuel Roberts: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
235 00:20:00.960 ⇒ 00:20:01.700 Samuel Roberts: Okay.
236 00:20:01.700 ⇒ 00:20:02.540 Clarence Stone: Right?
237 00:20:03.470 ⇒ 00:20:04.890 Samuel Roberts: Alright, I will dig in then.
238 00:20:04.890 ⇒ 00:20:10.030 Clarence Stone: Yeah, if we just get a clean install, right, with, like, Server side, user side.
239 00:20:10.170 ⇒ 00:20:13.400 Clarence Stone: I think we’d be in a good place, and okay.
240 00:20:13.590 ⇒ 00:20:17.850 Clarence Stone: It… my preferred model right now, is Kim and K2.5.
241 00:20:18.010 ⇒ 00:20:20.500 Samuel Roberts: Okay. Or the Gemini family.
242 00:20:21.020 ⇒ 00:20:21.660 Samuel Roberts: Okay.
243 00:20:21.840 ⇒ 00:20:24.139 Clarence Stone: The flash tool calls are really good.
244 00:20:24.580 ⇒ 00:20:25.409 Samuel Roberts: Cool. Okay.
245 00:20:25.410 ⇒ 00:20:31.809 Clarence Stone: So if we can run off of that stack and not pay 25 bucks per million input-output for Opus, that’d be nice.
246 00:20:31.810 ⇒ 00:20:36.439 Samuel Roberts: Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah, it’s funny, because, like, I don’t tend to lean on Opus that much.
247 00:20:37.000 ⇒ 00:20:41.120 Samuel Roberts: even in cursor, And I was messing around with,
248 00:20:41.570 ⇒ 00:20:44.529 Samuel Roberts: Communique 2.5 a little bit on some of my side stuff.
249 00:20:44.530 ⇒ 00:20:46.060 Clarence Stone: She’s my ride or die.
250 00:20:46.060 ⇒ 00:21:03.759 Samuel Roberts: Nice. I haven’t messed with Gemini too much yet. I mean, I’ll use Gemini on my phone sometimes, because that’s, like, the app that’s there, but I haven’t really, like, dug into it much as a model, especially the new ones. So, 3.1 is the sickest designer. I left you my Vercel, I just made a component library on Monday. That was one day.
251 00:21:03.790 ⇒ 00:21:07.120 Clarence Stone: And Like, it is sick.
252 00:21:08.650 ⇒ 00:21:09.520 Samuel Roberts: Oh, nice.
253 00:21:09.520 ⇒ 00:21:15.410 Clarence Stone: I probably did, like, 25% of their coding, but, like… It understands aesthetic.
254 00:21:15.900 ⇒ 00:21:19.979 Samuel Roberts: That’s nice. That’s… that’s big. Some of them, they’re not. Yeah.
255 00:21:20.530 ⇒ 00:21:21.930 Samuel Roberts: So, okay.
256 00:21:21.980 ⇒ 00:21:27.929 Clarence Stone: Yeah, Utam also mentioned that, like, it gives us control over, like.
257 00:21:29.080 ⇒ 00:21:30.990 Clarence Stone: Like, how we spend tokens now.
258 00:21:31.110 ⇒ 00:21:36.979 Clarence Stone: Right? It’s not always going to Cursor, and Cursor can’t just decide one day, like, hey, we’re gonna charge you a billion dollars.
259 00:21:37.190 ⇒ 00:21:37.860 Samuel Roberts: Yeah.
260 00:21:37.860 ⇒ 00:21:42.909 Clarence Stone: So, I guess, like, part of this is finding a good Kimi vendor.
261 00:21:43.470 ⇒ 00:21:44.130 Samuel Roberts: Okay.
262 00:21:44.130 ⇒ 00:21:52.100 Clarence Stone: Right? Or, like, figuring out if those Amazon credits we’ve been stashing would be good for it, stuff like that.
263 00:21:52.290 ⇒ 00:21:52.850 Samuel Roberts: Okay.
264 00:21:53.370 ⇒ 00:21:54.480 Clarence Stone: Yeah, good to know.
265 00:21:55.340 ⇒ 00:21:56.070 Clarence Stone: Cool!
266 00:21:56.590 ⇒ 00:21:57.030 Samuel Roberts: Alright.
267 00:21:57.030 ⇒ 00:22:01.170 Clarence Stone: Anything else? Dude, I’ve been nerding out. I’ve been sleeping at 3 AM, like, last two days.
268 00:22:01.850 ⇒ 00:22:02.550 Clarence Stone: bad.
269 00:22:02.770 ⇒ 00:22:20.799 Samuel Roberts: It’s… it’s… it’s so challenging, because, like, I have been trying to, like, mess around a little bit with some of this stuff, but, like, literally, like, it’s, like, I’m working, and at 5, it’s baby time, you know? Like, it’s like… and so I’ll sit there, like, he takes a nap, and I’m, like, opening up my laptop, and, like, trying… like, there was literally a few days, I forget what I was even working on, it was, like, a side…
270 00:22:21.010 ⇒ 00:22:31.090 Samuel Roberts: something, and I was so… I was just, like, typing with one hand, holding the baby, and I’m like, I don’t have VISPR on this machine yet, like… and so I feel that, but I haven’t been able to, like, scratch it enough.
271 00:22:31.090 ⇒ 00:22:36.180 Clarence Stone: Dude, Hermes Agent, connected to Telegram, just work from your phone.
272 00:22:36.180 ⇒ 00:22:41.770 Samuel Roberts: That’s what I was… I was playing around… I was… when I was in Florida, I was trying to, like…
273 00:22:42.160 ⇒ 00:22:49.949 Clarence Stone: I was VPN’d into my home lab, trying to get it, because I had a machine running with, I was playing around with Pi, because I had watched a video of those guys.
274 00:22:49.950 ⇒ 00:22:59.270 Samuel Roberts: And I was just like, let me mess around with my own, like, fresh coding agent. But I couldn’t get the, like, few tools, I forget what I was looking at. Something that would just give me a web UI on my phone.
275 00:22:59.270 ⇒ 00:22:59.770 Clarence Stone: Oh, yeah.
276 00:22:59.770 ⇒ 00:23:04.750 Samuel Roberts: Because I was like, I don’t really want to mess it, I want to, like, I want the web… I want to be able to see everything, I want it all.
277 00:23:04.750 ⇒ 00:23:06.389 Clarence Stone: Your man figured it out.
278 00:23:06.390 ⇒ 00:23:07.150 Samuel Roberts: Yeah?
279 00:23:07.150 ⇒ 00:23:12.169 Clarence Stone: I will be delivering the first web UI for Hermes if no one else does it by this weekend.
280 00:23:12.170 ⇒ 00:23:13.399 Samuel Roberts: Nice. Okay, cool, cool.
281 00:23:14.200 ⇒ 00:23:26.939 Samuel Roberts: There’s a few tools out there for, like, running sessions and SSA, and they were good for Cloud, but not with Codex, and not with Pi, certainly, and I was like, whatever. Eventually, I gave up, because I’m just, like, sitting on my phone while everyone’s around in Florida at the pool, and, like, I just…
282 00:23:26.940 ⇒ 00:23:35.720 Clarence Stone: So the secret sauce is you can hijack a open web UI session with a Docker container.
283 00:23:36.330 ⇒ 00:23:38.300 Clarence Stone: that has Hermes in it.
284 00:23:38.630 ⇒ 00:23:40.449 Samuel Roberts: Oh, okay, okay.
285 00:23:40.450 ⇒ 00:23:50.389 Clarence Stone: That’s what I’ve been doing locally, like… You run Hermes, it… Creates a fake, like, OpenAI API-looking thing.
286 00:23:50.390 ⇒ 00:23:51.270 Samuel Roberts: Sure.
287 00:23:51.270 ⇒ 00:23:53.259 Clarence Stone: And then it just taps into the container.
288 00:23:53.610 ⇒ 00:23:55.410 Samuel Roberts: Interesting. Okay, yeah, alright.
289 00:23:56.060 ⇒ 00:24:05.640 Clarence Stone: So, I could probably make a UI for it. I love Hermes right now, dude. It is not… so, like, Pi makes…
290 00:24:06.360 ⇒ 00:24:09.560 Clarence Stone: like… Open claw, kind of loud.
291 00:24:10.050 ⇒ 00:24:11.430 Samuel Roberts: Mmm, okay.
292 00:24:11.430 ⇒ 00:24:12.760 Clarence Stone: Right, like…
293 00:24:12.920 ⇒ 00:24:19.249 Clarence Stone: I don’t know what the guys at Naus Labs did, or even what their stack is. It’s so good. Yeah. It’s so stable.
294 00:24:19.250 ⇒ 00:24:20.080 Samuel Roberts: I haven’t met yet.
295 00:24:20.080 ⇒ 00:24:20.610 Clarence Stone: Okay, cool, cool.
296 00:24:20.610 ⇒ 00:24:21.150 Samuel Roberts: Cool.
297 00:24:21.530 ⇒ 00:24:22.270 Clarence Stone: Yeah.
298 00:24:22.510 ⇒ 00:24:23.180 Clarence Stone: Worth viewing.
299 00:24:23.180 ⇒ 00:24:24.199 Samuel Roberts: around with it.
300 00:24:25.060 ⇒ 00:24:28.219 Clarence Stone: Yeah, so that’s… that’s where things are at, but like…
301 00:24:28.220 ⇒ 00:24:28.810 Samuel Roberts: Okay.
302 00:24:29.090 ⇒ 00:24:40.799 Clarence Stone: I don’t know how up-to-date you’ve been on, like, our partnership, but Vicinity Labs is gonna join you guys as a labs team and continue to push this shit.
303 00:24:40.960 ⇒ 00:24:42.140 Samuel Roberts: Nice. Okay, cool, cool.
304 00:24:42.140 ⇒ 00:25:06.589 Clarence Stone: this is just tip of the iceberg. My job is to continue to deliver the next thing, the next thing, the next thing. Right. And, not just deliver it, because then, like, it just becomes, like, I just gave you guys, like, a fucking rocket launcher. Right. But, like, figure out how do we weave it into your organization? How do we change the processes? How do we get people to adopt it, right? And then use that as stories to say, this is the team that can do that for your organization.
305 00:25:07.160 ⇒ 00:25:08.519 Clarence Stone: Totally, that makes sense.
306 00:25:09.810 ⇒ 00:25:10.500 Clarence Stone: Cool.
307 00:25:10.970 ⇒ 00:25:11.760 Samuel Roberts: Awesome.
308 00:25:11.760 ⇒ 00:25:15.230 Clarence Stone: Yeah, that was a lot. I just gave you a day to download.
309 00:25:15.230 ⇒ 00:25:20.230 Samuel Roberts: Yeah, I will be digesting this for a minute now, so we’ll be good.
310 00:25:20.230 ⇒ 00:25:25.110 Clarence Stone: But you saw the Brain Kit, we’re gonna do one, we’re gonna give Brainforge a nice refresh.
311 00:25:25.390 ⇒ 00:25:29.439 Clarence Stone: We’re gonna do some chrome glows and stuff like that, it’s gonna be sick.
312 00:25:30.460 ⇒ 00:25:35.740 Clarence Stone: And, yeah, so on all purposes, I’ll probably serve as your running developer.
313 00:25:35.950 ⇒ 00:25:47.339 Clarence Stone: For all of this. So, if you guys, like, figure out how we want to handle deployments, or, like, pull requests, and things like that, like, count me in, just let me know how you guys want to run it.
314 00:25:47.710 ⇒ 00:25:48.320 Samuel Roberts: Cool.
315 00:25:48.470 ⇒ 00:25:52.669 Clarence Stone: Yeah. Usually, front-end just tags along, and you guys tell us what to do, so…
316 00:25:52.670 ⇒ 00:25:59.649 Samuel Roberts: Yeah, it’s such a weird, even, like, the split, because, like, I come from such a, like, zero-to-one startup world, like, front-end, back-end split does, like…
317 00:26:00.050 ⇒ 00:26:04.590 Samuel Roberts: I hear what you’re saying, and I’m like, we can make that work, but I’m so used to just, like, being in.
318 00:26:04.590 ⇒ 00:26:19.049 Clarence Stone: So, you know what’s crazy? I came from an organization that has a different split. I went from being the BA, defining the feature, talking with the business, and then PMing my own UX design work into the front end.
319 00:26:20.350 ⇒ 00:26:22.049 Clarence Stone: That was my boundary.
320 00:26:22.490 ⇒ 00:26:25.139 Clarence Stone: So I was accountable for everything you see.
321 00:26:25.390 ⇒ 00:26:26.699 Samuel Roberts: Yeah, okay, that makes sense.
322 00:26:26.700 ⇒ 00:26:31.209 Clarence Stone: Right? Sure. So, like, I get the logic, but, like, that’s not normal, right?
323 00:26:31.210 ⇒ 00:26:32.189 Samuel Roberts: No, yeah, yeah.
324 00:26:32.190 ⇒ 00:26:39.669 Clarence Stone: business stuff, and all the way to, like, what we build. Okay, cool, cool. And then, like, I just go, just give me hooks, I don’t know.
325 00:26:39.670 ⇒ 00:26:43.280 Samuel Roberts: Yeah. I hear that. Okay, cool.
326 00:26:43.280 ⇒ 00:26:43.850 Clarence Stone: Yeah.
327 00:26:44.360 ⇒ 00:26:48.080 Samuel Roberts: Alright. Yeah, I may have some questions later, we’ll see as I start digging in, but…
328 00:26:48.080 ⇒ 00:26:48.560 Clarence Stone: Awesome.
329 00:26:48.710 ⇒ 00:26:50.549 Samuel Roberts: It gives me plenty to sink my teeth into.
330 00:26:51.310 ⇒ 00:26:52.160 Clarence Stone: Awesome!
331 00:26:52.550 ⇒ 00:26:58.780 Clarence Stone: Alright, yeah, feel free to ping me, if you have any questions along the way. We’ll dig deep into this tomorrow.
332 00:26:59.060 ⇒ 00:26:59.700 Samuel Roberts: Yeah, perfect.
333 00:26:59.700 ⇒ 00:27:00.719 Clarence Stone: Cool. Thanks, dude.
334 00:27:00.720 ⇒ 00:27:02.090 Samuel Roberts: Sounds good. Alright, have a good one.