2025-12-16_clarence_-_gabe_-_new_roles_pilot_progra_afbcb6ee

Meeting Title: Clarence - Gabe - New Roles Pilot Program Date: 2025-12-16 Meeting participants: Gabriel Lam, Clarence Stone

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WEBVTT

1 00:00:42.240 ⇒ 00:00:43.560 Gabriel Lam: Hello!

2 00:00:44.990 ⇒ 00:00:48.000 Gabriel Lam: Sorry, one second. Hello, how are you?

3 00:00:48.000 ⇒ 00:00:48.730 Clarence Stone: Good!

4 00:00:48.750 ⇒ 00:01:07.290 Gabriel Lam: background. I hope I didn’t, disrupt your day. No, you didn’t. It’s all good. I just finished all my client meetings, but I’m still on site, so… Oh, nice. Nice. Yeah, thanks for making time. I… I didn’t know you were on site today, because I know you were on site yesterday, but I didn’t know it jacked on today.

5 00:01:07.790 ⇒ 00:01:19.800 Clarence Stone: So we did a prep yesterday and locked everything in today, so, yeah, I mean, it’s a great day. Already got some decent wins, so, yeah, no worries about the timing,

6 00:01:19.800 ⇒ 00:01:35.209 Clarence Stone: Only question I have for you before we get started is, like, I definitely want to cover things that you’re specifically interested in. I don’t want to, like, miss that as we get into talking and all this stuff, so… is there anything specific that you were interested in

7 00:01:35.320 ⇒ 00:01:36.520 Clarence Stone: Learning more about.

8 00:01:37.060 ⇒ 00:01:42.520 Gabriel Lam: I think, specifically, I was curious about where…

9 00:01:42.670 ⇒ 00:01:48.110 Gabriel Lam: The framework between, like, client success owner, engagement planner, and service leader.

10 00:01:49.860 ⇒ 00:01:51.540 Gabriel Lam: like, I guess…

11 00:01:51.860 ⇒ 00:01:59.250 Gabriel Lam: I don’t… I’m trying to phrase it, concisely. To me, it seems like a structure that works at scale.

12 00:02:00.570 ⇒ 00:02:04.870 Gabriel Lam: At least… at first glance. And so, I was curious.

13 00:02:05.330 ⇒ 00:02:09.090 Gabriel Lam: Like, when you were approaching this, do you feel like…

14 00:02:09.320 ⇒ 00:02:15.740 Gabriel Lam: There needed to hit, like, a critical mass before it happened, or sort of what would be the interim

15 00:02:16.540 ⇒ 00:02:22.399 Gabriel Lam: structure of that. I think that was my first main question. I think my second question was…

16 00:02:22.800 ⇒ 00:02:27.220 Gabriel Lam: And maybe this is, like, a question that I should bring to Utam and Robert as well, which is, like.

17 00:02:27.940 ⇒ 00:02:34.530 Gabriel Lam: Do they eventually see Brainforge as a sort of service-led business, or, like, a product-led business, and how does…

18 00:02:35.290 ⇒ 00:02:36.630 Gabriel Lam: That structure fit in.

19 00:02:37.180 ⇒ 00:02:47.999 Clarence Stone: Probably, okay, I think that I can answer pretty emphatically, and I’m pretty sure you, Tom, at least would echo what I’m saying, because, like, I’ve had similar conversations with him.

20 00:02:48.250 ⇒ 00:02:54.560 Clarence Stone: It’s… it’s not… it… like, it’s either-or.

21 00:02:54.950 ⇒ 00:03:02.920 Clarence Stone: What’s happening in the industry today is, like, this weird mashup of Service becoming products.

22 00:03:03.380 ⇒ 00:03:11.410 Clarence Stone: And gave the biggest, like, I guess, like, technological transformation that enabled this was, like.

23 00:03:11.420 ⇒ 00:03:22.549 Clarence Stone: normally, you would go to, like, Google to get your Gmail, you would go to, you know, Workday to get your HR stuff, you would go to Salesforce to get your sales stuff, right?

24 00:03:22.550 ⇒ 00:03:38.569 Clarence Stone: And what eventually happens is you end up with all of this technical debt as a company because you’re trying to, at some point, look at analytics that come from your HR system into your payment system to see, like, did we

25 00:03:38.570 ⇒ 00:03:55.000 Clarence Stone: Hey, everybody. Or maybe the payment system needs to be visible to marketing so that they can actually understand if they sold something and it was successful based on a campaign, right? Campaign costs, like, 50 grand, like, did we get 50 grand in ROI? So, like.

26 00:03:55.000 ⇒ 00:04:05.139 Clarence Stone: What a lot of companies, especially the ones that are forward-thinking, that are our Brainforge customers today, are realizing is that if they go for something that’s off the shelf.

27 00:04:05.250 ⇒ 00:04:12.570 Clarence Stone: Like, an off-the-shelf product, there is going to be follow-on costs that they have to live with practically forever.

28 00:04:13.290 ⇒ 00:04:18.809 Clarence Stone: Right? Like, decoupling from a service, once you use it like Salesforce, it’s so difficult.

29 00:04:18.810 ⇒ 00:04:19.540 Gabriel Lam: So difficult.

30 00:04:19.540 ⇒ 00:04:28.080 Clarence Stone: Right? Because you’re tracking lifecycle of your clients, you’re tracking the relationships you have with them, all the outreach, how you did it, everything.

31 00:04:28.580 ⇒ 00:04:40.310 Clarence Stone: And now, you are effectively signing yourself up for, like, thousands of dollars in guaranteed spend that you have to do, and you can’t call yourself out of it.

32 00:04:41.270 ⇒ 00:04:44.069 Clarence Stone: Right. So, the new…

33 00:04:44.630 ⇒ 00:05:04.600 Clarence Stone: like, technical breakthrough is the simple fact that we can now create customized solutions, right? If you wanted a dashboard done a certain way, you don’t have to buy Power BI and, like, a bunch of bolt-ons and connectors, right? We put it in the right datastore, right? And you’re able to get the insights that you want to lift out of it.

34 00:05:05.030 ⇒ 00:05:12.149 Clarence Stone: Yeah. Right, and you can build as many custom dashboards as you want. If you want to share that data to another data system, you can, right?

35 00:05:12.600 ⇒ 00:05:31.480 Clarence Stone: So, the model today is now moving towards, we would like a service where you build us a product, because we would rather not spend, you know, this, you know, multi-year, like, 20K commitment on something like a Salesforce, right? If, you know, like.

36 00:05:31.650 ⇒ 00:05:37.910 Clarence Stone: UTOM and Brainforge can deliver those same insights, why would you do that?

37 00:05:40.470 ⇒ 00:05:41.160 Gabriel Lam: Right.

38 00:05:41.160 ⇒ 00:05:50.970 Clarence Stone: Right, so, to directly answer your question, like, is this service-led, is this product-led, it’s neither, because the new format of services is products.

39 00:05:52.510 ⇒ 00:05:53.240 Clarence Stone: Right?

40 00:05:54.190 ⇒ 00:05:58.139 Gabriel Lam: so, yeah, yeah, I think I, I can…

41 00:05:58.290 ⇒ 00:06:06.959 Gabriel Lam: buy into that argument. I think a part of me is still, like, at the end of the day, someone… like, we are… yes, we are offering… we’re building a product for our clients.

42 00:06:07.400 ⇒ 00:06:14.060 Gabriel Lam: And yet, at the same time, we are also utilizing other products that other people have built.

43 00:06:14.330 ⇒ 00:06:14.690 Gabriel Lam: Yeah.

44 00:06:14.820 ⇒ 00:06:20.390 Gabriel Lam: And so, yeah, I think you bring up a good point about Like, this new normal of…

45 00:06:21.280 ⇒ 00:06:26.250 Gabriel Lam: What we are offering… as… like, our, our…

46 00:06:26.570 ⇒ 00:06:32.319 Gabriel Lam: our service is building a product that they need, and that they can use, and that they can use to scale. I think my…

47 00:06:33.600 ⇒ 00:06:39.890 Gabriel Lam: Thought, or maybe a, A preconception, and you’re free to challenge it.

48 00:06:39.890 ⇒ 00:06:40.360 Clarence Stone: Yeah.

49 00:06:40.360 ⇒ 00:06:42.029 Gabriel Lam: I, I do wanna, I do want to, like…

50 00:06:42.030 ⇒ 00:06:44.039 Clarence Stone: It’s a free-for-all, don’t hold yourself back.

51 00:06:44.040 ⇒ 00:06:46.439 Gabriel Lam: is… I was like, okay, I…

52 00:06:46.710 ⇒ 00:06:59.309 Gabriel Lam: I think a qualm that I had, and I think I might have shared this before, a qualm that I had with consulting was it felt like the way to solve bigger or more problems was to throw more people at it, as opposed to throw more…

53 00:06:59.410 ⇒ 00:07:06.849 Gabriel Lam: Research, or maybe more, like, it felt less scalable, if that makes sense.

54 00:07:06.850 ⇒ 00:07:07.540 Clarence Stone: I agree.

55 00:07:07.540 ⇒ 00:07:16.379 Gabriel Lam: I would ideally not like to see, you know, like, every morning you go to stand up and they’re like, alright, we gotta throw another engineer onto this client to build this thing.

56 00:07:16.380 ⇒ 00:07:29.760 Gabriel Lam: And it’s like, okay, that’s great at the beginning, because I see that you need to build something bespoke, and you need that to really be highly specialized and strategic for a client. But let’s say you have a similar client that you’ve already built something for.

57 00:07:29.900 ⇒ 00:07:34.560 Gabriel Lam: For a different… like, let’s say, you know, we’re working with

58 00:07:35.050 ⇒ 00:07:50.040 Gabriel Lam: like, a home improvement company, or like a health tech company, and then we have another health client, and we’re like, well, do we need to then throw whatever people we had here onto that project, like you would typically do in a consultancy? Or what would be…

59 00:07:50.270 ⇒ 00:07:54.890 Gabriel Lam: The vision of taking whatever we’ve built and moving that forward.

60 00:07:54.890 ⇒ 00:08:10.720 Clarence Stone: Okay, so, let’s deconstruct this in a couple different factors. I think to Robert and you, Tom’s surprise, after I did my initial assessment, I did not recommend them to hire anybody that is solely doing project management or client services management.

61 00:08:11.310 ⇒ 00:08:30.630 Clarence Stone: I said, this is a function of being part of a high-performing team, that you should be able to understand the life cycle of the product or the project that you’re working on, and be able to pitch in on, either be it timeline, managing client satisfaction, or just domain excellence, right?

62 00:08:30.630 ⇒ 00:08:31.110 Gabriel Lam: Yeah.

63 00:08:31.110 ⇒ 00:08:35.729 Clarence Stone: So, automatically, those 3, like.

64 00:08:36.380 ⇒ 00:08:54.299 Clarence Stone: roles are at tension with each other, Gabe. Because, obviously, if you want your customer to be happy, you’re gonna say, give me the most experienced, like, guy that does medical services, right? Like, you would advocate for that for the customer success.

65 00:08:54.300 ⇒ 00:08:54.730 Gabriel Lam: Right.

66 00:08:54.730 ⇒ 00:08:58.039 Clarence Stone: Right? Planner now goes, wait a second, though.

67 00:08:58.080 ⇒ 00:09:00.030 Gabriel Lam: I can’t, he doesn’t have enough time.

68 00:09:00.030 ⇒ 00:09:10.789 Clarence Stone: yeah, he doesn’t have enough time, right? Or, we did something similar, and we can leverage that, and it was built with somebody else, I’ll go find that person.

69 00:09:10.980 ⇒ 00:09:13.230 Clarence Stone: Right? So…

70 00:09:13.350 ⇒ 00:09:25.360 Clarence Stone: to resolve your first point of, like, I don’t want this to be a situation where people just throw more bodies at the problem, it’s not gonna be possible, because the other two are going to say, that’s a no-go.

71 00:09:25.360 ⇒ 00:09:29.090 Gabriel Lam: Right, because the client success leader has to deliver this project.

72 00:09:29.400 ⇒ 00:09:30.470 Clarence Stone: on budget.

73 00:09:30.900 ⇒ 00:09:36.360 Clarence Stone: Right? If you want to throw 3 more bodies at it, that’s not going to happen anymore, right? So the planner’s gonna say, yo, you can’t do that.

74 00:09:36.570 ⇒ 00:09:37.400 Gabriel Lam: Mmm. Right.

75 00:09:37.400 ⇒ 00:09:41.850 Clarence Stone: And the service leader’s gonna say, well, if you take 3 more of my engineers, I have none left.

76 00:09:42.310 ⇒ 00:09:42.820 Gabriel Lam: Yeah.

77 00:09:42.820 ⇒ 00:09:43.729 Clarence Stone: things to do.

78 00:09:43.900 ⇒ 00:09:44.560 Gabriel Lam: Yeah.

79 00:09:44.560 ⇒ 00:09:57.469 Clarence Stone: Right? So that now spawns a conversation of not who should get this one resource or person’s time, but rather what is the most important thing for Brainforge to be focused on right now.

80 00:09:57.470 ⇒ 00:10:10.459 Clarence Stone: So, if, you know, the consensus is, hey, we’ve got ABC Home being one of our all-star clients that we always want to put a great impression on, hey, so let’s maintain, you know, that staffing.

81 00:10:10.460 ⇒ 00:10:20.189 Clarence Stone: But hey, we’re about to roll off over there, some staffing becomes available, you can modularly, you know, fit people in throughout a project lifecycle as you need them.

82 00:10:20.190 ⇒ 00:10:21.060 Gabriel Lam: Right.

83 00:10:21.060 ⇒ 00:10:21.760 Clarence Stone: But…

84 00:10:22.600 ⇒ 00:10:29.079 Clarence Stone: I think what I’m trying to highlight to you is that those three things that are always kind of in tension, but, like.

85 00:10:29.080 ⇒ 00:10:47.930 Clarence Stone: working together is what’s happening in you, Tom, and Robert’s brain at any given time. When you’re asking them, like, these resourcing questions, or you guys are doing sprint planning, or they’re talking about how to go after different markets or clients, they’re actually balancing this all the time.

86 00:10:47.950 ⇒ 00:10:58.300 Clarence Stone: Like, trust me when I tell you that there’s conversations that I have where UTOM goes, oh, I wish it’s well in this client, but, like, you know, it’s not gonna fit into this, so we have to think about hiring someone.

87 00:10:58.350 ⇒ 00:11:01.579 Gabriel Lam: Like, he knows from that top-end level.

88 00:11:01.580 ⇒ 00:11:04.360 Clarence Stone: That, you know, the plan’s not gonna work later on.

89 00:11:04.750 ⇒ 00:11:05.110 Gabriel Lam: Right.

90 00:11:05.110 ⇒ 00:11:19.169 Clarence Stone: So these three faculties are skill sets that I hope everyone at Brainforge will eventually, like, nurture themselves into and be capable of doing, right? But I’m not gonna throw all three at people who are

91 00:11:19.490 ⇒ 00:11:21.279 Clarence Stone: Trying to learn and grow, right?

92 00:11:21.700 ⇒ 00:11:41.559 Clarence Stone: So when you ask me, what is the end state, right? The end state is that everyone would be able to do all three, and be independent, you know, consultants that deeply understand customers’ problems, right? Can formulate a solid strategy and plan to arrive at it with the technical knowledge that they have.

93 00:11:41.840 ⇒ 00:11:51.109 Clarence Stone: Right? And my dream is that, as, you know, y’all progress through this cycle, you’ll be able to say, hey.

94 00:11:51.320 ⇒ 00:12:08.219 Clarence Stone: I know exactly what this client wants, or I know exactly how to communicate to this market, because this client really articulated to me what the main problem in this industry is. Yeah. And I want that person, doesn’t matter if they’re customer success, or the strategist, or planner, or the service leader, to say.

95 00:12:08.330 ⇒ 00:12:10.639 Clarence Stone: Let’s stand up a new service, you, Tom.

96 00:12:10.810 ⇒ 00:12:26.370 Clarence Stone: here’s how I think it should be positioned, here’s how I want to put that landing page up, here’s my marketing campaign, and here’s how much I think I would be able to get. Now you go from just being, you know, in charge of a project and its life cycle, to owning

97 00:12:26.530 ⇒ 00:12:29.310 Clarence Stone: That entire sector of products.

98 00:12:32.040 ⇒ 00:12:32.890 Gabriel Lam: Okay.

99 00:12:33.770 ⇒ 00:12:46.929 Clarence Stone: Right? And if you look at… so there is some commonality to consulting here, right? Because once you become a partner in consulting, what do you have to do to buy in? You need to be selling and generating revenue.

100 00:12:47.230 ⇒ 00:12:51.810 Gabriel Lam: Yeah. I mean, I don’t think that’s consulting, like, alone, right? I think…

101 00:12:52.390 ⇒ 00:12:55.379 Gabriel Lam: Whatever, regardless of service, even if you’re…

102 00:12:55.380 ⇒ 00:12:55.810 Clarence Stone: Leading…

103 00:12:55.810 ⇒ 00:12:58.060 Gabriel Lam: a product, you’re still trying to sell to clients.

104 00:12:58.060 ⇒ 00:13:13.299 Clarence Stone: Yeah, there’s a distinct difference, because as a partner, you have a stake. You have a stake in, you know, winning those clients over, making sure that you keep them happy, and you’re always delivering on time and on budget, because we want to create incentives that are aligned to that.

105 00:13:13.960 ⇒ 00:13:31.179 Clarence Stone: this role doesn’t exist because we’re hoping for people to grow into that. But, you know, I can’t expect everybody to wake up tomorrow and just be like, I can now be a strategist and a planner, and I can understand how to, you know, connect with our customers and attend to exactly what they’re looking for.

106 00:13:31.180 ⇒ 00:13:42.830 Clarence Stone: and lead an entire technical team that’s gonna do that implementation. So the idea really is, let’s split those 3 things that are in constant tension in you, Tom, and Robert’s head.

107 00:13:43.030 ⇒ 00:13:43.840 Clarence Stone: Right?

108 00:13:43.840 ⇒ 00:13:44.720 Gabriel Lam: Hmm…

109 00:13:44.720 ⇒ 00:13:53.279 Clarence Stone: And let each of you fit into those voices, and as you talk to each other, you will understand their decision-making process.

110 00:13:53.280 ⇒ 00:13:54.150 Gabriel Lam: Hmm.

111 00:13:54.490 ⇒ 00:13:59.849 Clarence Stone: Right? And you will be able to talk at their level, at least in one of the three capabilities.

112 00:14:00.810 ⇒ 00:14:01.490 Gabriel Lam: Right.

113 00:14:04.530 ⇒ 00:14:07.400 Gabriel Lam: So, I guess a question that I had there was.

114 00:14:07.710 ⇒ 00:14:11.500 Gabriel Lam: How… what… what do you imagine would be…

115 00:14:11.680 ⇒ 00:14:17.850 Gabriel Lam: strategies or ideas to… I think… let me backtrack. I think…

116 00:14:18.680 ⇒ 00:14:23.140 Gabriel Lam: Maybe a pessimistic outlook would be to say.

117 00:14:23.250 ⇒ 00:14:36.629 Gabriel Lam: I get siloed into one of these three buckets. Like, either I spend a lot of time on planning, and I’m like, okay, I’m getting really good at planning, and because I’m so good, I feel comfortable doing it, or I do it faster, or I do it better, and I…

118 00:14:36.750 ⇒ 00:14:41.200 Gabriel Lam: put myself, you know, in a position to do a lot of planning. Or versus, like.

119 00:14:41.460 ⇒ 00:14:45.130 Gabriel Lam: client success, and I find myself in that spot, and…

120 00:14:45.480 ⇒ 00:14:50.200 Gabriel Lam: are there strategies to say, like, hey, I want to make sure that I…

121 00:14:50.460 ⇒ 00:14:54.150 Gabriel Lam: Have time, or capacity, or am utilized in other ways.

122 00:14:54.290 ⇒ 00:14:56.340 Gabriel Lam: To then build up other sides.

123 00:14:56.340 ⇒ 00:15:10.160 Clarence Stone: That’s always gonna be a business need. So I offer you, actually, two really amazing outcomes from that. There’s horizontal growth in that, saying, maybe you found planning and strategy to be your thing. You absolutely love it.

124 00:15:10.160 ⇒ 00:15:16.389 Clarence Stone: Right. I think there’s a role in the future, as this company grows, for you to be head of strategy and planning.

125 00:15:16.640 ⇒ 00:15:19.180 Clarence Stone: Where you look at resources as a whole.

126 00:15:19.530 ⇒ 00:15:33.809 Clarence Stone: Right? Where you look at allocations as a whole, where you start to look at maybe even sales as a whole, and say, hey, we… and maybe the market dynamics, and say, you know what, like, we should plan on allocating this many people to do this.

127 00:15:33.810 ⇒ 00:15:52.429 Clarence Stone: Because this has been, like, our historical sales cycle. Like, all the medical people come out of the woodworks in December, right? Let’s make sure we keep this person available. Or we’re gonna hit a resource shortage here, right? So, somebody that’s not just thinking on one or two or three projects, but really across all the projects.

128 00:15:53.400 ⇒ 00:15:55.390 Gabriel Lam: Right, so that’s one growth.

129 00:15:55.450 ⇒ 00:16:12.259 Clarence Stone: metric. Right. The second one is really if you want to grow into a full-fledged consultant and really own a service. Now, I gotta say, either path, there’s nothing wrong with it, because it’s two types of growth in my life, right? So you go.

130 00:16:12.260 ⇒ 00:16:29.309 Clarence Stone: I’ve got such a deep, you know, understanding of esports, and I know how analytics could transform it. I know how, you know, providing AI to those marketing teams and forward-facing teams would change it. I even know people in the industry that would have bought some of the projects that I made.

131 00:16:29.310 ⇒ 00:16:30.000 Gabriel Lam: Hmm…

132 00:16:30.000 ⇒ 00:16:32.659 Clarence Stone: And I want to pick up the phone and call them, and win that work.

133 00:16:32.920 ⇒ 00:16:41.230 Clarence Stone: Okay, well, let’s bring you into a customer, client success role, right, while you continue to do the planning, and you own all of it.

134 00:16:43.410 ⇒ 00:16:45.779 Clarence Stone: Right? And that… that’s where it becomes…

135 00:16:45.980 ⇒ 00:16:57.540 Clarence Stone: like, true independent growth, because you are now able to find the right technical resources, the staff on that project, or even request it, right? Because you know exactly what that domain is.

136 00:17:00.660 ⇒ 00:17:02.790 Clarence Stone: Right, so two ways of growing.

137 00:17:03.120 ⇒ 00:17:03.610 Gabriel Lam: Yeah.

138 00:17:03.610 ⇒ 00:17:12.309 Clarence Stone: You’re the planner of all planners, or, you know, that, that, you know, jack of all trades, right, that’s leading entire verticals.

139 00:17:13.220 ⇒ 00:17:13.980 Gabriel Lam: Hmm…

140 00:17:13.980 ⇒ 00:17:16.150 Clarence Stone: But every role has growth like that, right?

141 00:17:16.810 ⇒ 00:17:19.549 Clarence Stone: Head of Client Success.

142 00:17:19.770 ⇒ 00:17:26.939 Clarence Stone: I imagine that role should be a rally to every client success owner in the organization every morning, saying.

143 00:17:27.319 ⇒ 00:17:31.509 Clarence Stone: Is your client happy with you? If they’re not, pick up the phone and have a chat with me.

144 00:17:31.910 ⇒ 00:17:32.320 Gabriel Lam: Yeah.

145 00:17:32.320 ⇒ 00:17:46.100 Clarence Stone: Right? Are you stuck on how you should communicate something? Let’s talk about, you know, how Gabe did this in this call. Just freaking go into the platform and play the call, show the transcript, and say, this is a class act. This is how the play should go.

146 00:17:46.600 ⇒ 00:17:48.640 Clarence Stone: Right? That person…

147 00:17:48.930 ⇒ 00:17:59.059 Clarence Stone: should be growing, you know, sales as a pipeline, building relationships with customers, right? That’s a horizontal growth for a customer success owner. You… you are the head of all customer success.

148 00:17:59.530 ⇒ 00:18:00.040 Gabriel Lam: Yeah.

149 00:18:00.040 ⇒ 00:18:10.849 Clarence Stone: Right? Same goes with, you know, service leader, right? Like, maybe you’re just doing one small part of reporting, but how about reporting across all verticals and client types?

150 00:18:11.100 ⇒ 00:18:12.120 Gabriel Lam: Right.

151 00:18:12.120 ⇒ 00:18:17.720 Clarence Stone: How about, you know, data architecture, you know, just for Snowflake, could be one.

152 00:18:17.740 ⇒ 00:18:32.409 Clarence Stone: But, maybe we pick up clients that use Databricks, that use Azure environments, and then you, you know, maybe have some experience with all those things, and you’re at a higher level managing those service leaders that are doing those day-to-day. So…

153 00:18:32.650 ⇒ 00:18:37.570 Clarence Stone: Like, what is underwritten is all of these possible growth outlays.

154 00:18:37.960 ⇒ 00:18:42.990 Clarence Stone: Right? I just want to present everyone with, here is your distinct next step, right?

155 00:18:42.990 ⇒ 00:18:43.320 Gabriel Lam: Yeah.

156 00:18:43.320 ⇒ 00:18:44.490 Clarence Stone: And…

157 00:18:44.780 ⇒ 00:18:53.029 Clarence Stone: And if you ask me where all of these roles end, right, is truly ownership in a place in this company.

158 00:18:53.030 ⇒ 00:19:06.020 Clarence Stone: Not just somebody who’s pulling tickets and doing work that you, Tom, or Robert described to you, right? But someone who knows this business intimately and can operate and understand what that end-state outcome is, and do it themselves.

159 00:19:08.020 ⇒ 00:19:19.340 Clarence Stone: Right? Like, to the point where you just know, like, Robert’s always gonna ask me this. So, you know what? I’m gonna… I’m gonna talk to somebody on the product, the platform team, create an AI assistant that’s just always there.

160 00:19:20.000 ⇒ 00:19:20.510 Gabriel Lam: Yep.

161 00:19:20.510 ⇒ 00:19:36.630 Clarence Stone: Right? And, you know, why not just send an email to them every Friday with that info, because they’re gonna always want it. Those are the, like, the kinds of things I would look for when I think of somebody who would grow out of that current contained role.

162 00:19:36.750 ⇒ 00:19:42.910 Gabriel Lam: Right. Right? Because they’re going well beyond that, they’re anticipating needs, and it shows that they deeply understand.

163 00:19:43.010 ⇒ 00:19:43.570 Clarence Stone: You know, that.

164 00:19:43.570 ⇒ 00:19:45.160 Gabriel Lam: Yeah.

165 00:19:45.160 ⇒ 00:19:54.110 Clarence Stone: Right? Maybe a strategist or a planner that says, hey, I need, you know, a connection between the Operate platform and linear, so that

166 00:19:54.500 ⇒ 00:19:57.020 Clarence Stone: Know how staffing is related to ticket throughput.

167 00:19:57.230 ⇒ 00:19:57.830 Gabriel Lam: Yeah.

168 00:19:58.060 ⇒ 00:19:58.770 Clarence Stone: Right?

169 00:19:58.990 ⇒ 00:20:05.519 Clarence Stone: Because I… trust me, that’s one of the things that I asked right away. I was like, are you connecting these two together? Because this is a pain.

170 00:20:06.380 ⇒ 00:20:20.870 Clarence Stone: Right? But, see, the thing is, like, if we don’t give you those titles and roles, there wouldn’t be a feeling of ownership to begin with for you to ask those questions and demand that we invest in making a solution like that.

171 00:20:20.870 ⇒ 00:20:21.840 Gabriel Lam: Hmm…

172 00:20:22.760 ⇒ 00:20:25.640 Clarence Stone: Right? Because you don’t own it, then why would you, like, stick your neck.

173 00:20:25.640 ⇒ 00:20:33.960 Gabriel Lam: out and advocate for. You should just be pulling tickets every day and crushing it. Right. And there’s nothing wrong with that, because that’s the arrangement that, you know, your mindset is at. Right.

174 00:20:35.190 ⇒ 00:20:42.019 Gabriel Lam: Okay, I think I see it, I think that’s really cool. Okay, yeah, I think, yeah.

175 00:20:42.640 ⇒ 00:20:44.260 Gabriel Lam: Okay.

176 00:20:44.260 ⇒ 00:20:52.740 Clarence Stone: like, I actually thought of this, like, to the root, the core instance of the problem. And I don’t even want to call it a problem, it’s just…

177 00:20:53.210 ⇒ 00:20:58.750 Gabriel Lam: This is what it is. What it is, right. What makes Brainforge Brainforge and so special and unique?

178 00:20:58.780 ⇒ 00:21:07.880 Clarence Stone: Right? Is truly the fact that clients have a predictable way of interacting with this group, because outwardly, you are consultants.

179 00:21:08.110 ⇒ 00:21:08.630 Gabriel Lam: Mmm.

180 00:21:08.630 ⇒ 00:21:14.010 Clarence Stone: Right? You’re providing a service, and the way they communicate with you is no different than any other organization.

181 00:21:14.320 ⇒ 00:21:15.010 Gabriel Lam: Right.

182 00:21:15.010 ⇒ 00:21:19.559 Clarence Stone: But internally, you, Tom, and Robert have structured this as a product organization.

183 00:21:20.070 ⇒ 00:21:26.250 Clarence Stone: Right, and product organizations make freaking great products, while consulting teams don’t make good products.

184 00:21:26.410 ⇒ 00:21:28.010 Gabriel Lam: That’s very true.

185 00:21:28.010 ⇒ 00:21:36.760 Clarence Stone: Right? So what they’ve done is, like, AI now enables us to do this. So let’s try to shoehorn the best of these two strategies together.

186 00:21:36.960 ⇒ 00:21:37.870 Gabriel Lam: Hmm…

187 00:21:37.870 ⇒ 00:21:57.329 Clarence Stone: Now, where did that leave you guys, right? And I don’t think this was well considered. Where does that leave people who are joining Brainforge or working at Brainforge? When there’s a model that they’re trying to, like, figure out and lock into the market, it’s very hard for you to have a mental picture of how this business operates.

188 00:21:58.070 ⇒ 00:22:12.439 Clarence Stone: Right? So you don’t have a way of anticipating what may come next, you don’t have a framework of when you can speak up and when you can’t. You know, so… so by saying this distinctly, like, hey, internally we’re operating as a product team.

189 00:22:12.530 ⇒ 00:22:24.949 Clarence Stone: outwardly, we’re… externally, we’re presenting ourselves as, you know, consultants, right? Now you have three roles. One role that’s responsible for client satisfaction, that’s almost entirely the consulting side.

190 00:22:24.950 ⇒ 00:22:25.760 Gabriel Lam: Right.

191 00:22:25.760 ⇒ 00:22:32.400 Clarence Stone: And then one… another role that’s kind of bridging those two things together, saying, like, okay, I understand what you need.

192 00:22:32.650 ⇒ 00:22:38.990 Clarence Stone: Right? But we need to build this in a product manner. So, you know, if we get repeat

193 00:22:39.140 ⇒ 00:22:48.099 Clarence Stone: medical clients, and we build this tooling with, like, a data dictionary for medical words, maybe, right? Yeah. Let’s create that data dictionary in a repeatable way.

194 00:22:48.100 ⇒ 00:22:50.520 Gabriel Lam: Because I know that’s coming later. Right.

195 00:22:50.720 ⇒ 00:22:56.389 Clarence Stone: Right? And then a purely product person, which is, like, the technical excellence in that service leader.

196 00:22:57.120 ⇒ 00:23:09.649 Clarence Stone: Right, so those three sub- roles really cover the gamut from externality to internalities, and I’m hoping that they bridge that gap so people have a predictable experience at work every day.

197 00:23:09.820 ⇒ 00:23:10.490 Gabriel Lam: Right.

198 00:23:11.130 ⇒ 00:23:15.900 Gabriel Lam: Yeah, I think… I think having it called out so explicitly is really helpful.

199 00:23:16.140 ⇒ 00:23:17.100 Gabriel Lam: I think…

200 00:23:18.130 ⇒ 00:23:24.520 Gabriel Lam: I’m biased because I come from a consulting background, and I’m like, I see those words, and I’m like, oh, I am…

201 00:23:24.760 ⇒ 00:23:34.499 Gabriel Lam: connoting that to what I’ve experienced before, which is, like, service leaders are responsible for this very specific thing, and it, like, was reinforcing certain…

202 00:23:34.670 ⇒ 00:23:38.439 Gabriel Lam: Maybe ideas of, like, oh, does that mean that the…

203 00:23:39.460 ⇒ 00:23:49.110 Gabriel Lam: the technical person is just sort of pulling tickets, like, right? That’s the sort of thing that I came… that I came to this conversation with, so that’s been really helpful to clear up.

204 00:23:49.110 ⇒ 00:23:57.999 Clarence Stone: Yeah, so Gabe, if you could help me out, one of the things that I told Robert and you, Tom, that we never actually ended up, like, workshopping is, I was like, guys.

205 00:23:58.320 ⇒ 00:24:01.300 Clarence Stone: These titles, they’re not fixed.

206 00:24:01.300 ⇒ 00:24:03.700 Gabriel Lam: Like, we can call them anything.

207 00:24:03.700 ⇒ 00:24:06.989 Clarence Stone: What I’m trying to do is define what they should be.

208 00:24:06.990 ⇒ 00:24:07.910 Gabriel Lam: Hmm.

209 00:24:07.910 ⇒ 00:24:08.690 Clarence Stone: Right.

210 00:24:08.880 ⇒ 00:24:21.670 Clarence Stone: So, like, we don’t have to call it a service leader. We don’t have to call it client success owner, we don’t have to call them anything, but, like, I would like some descriptor that allows you to kind of have a picture in your mind of what this person might do.

211 00:24:21.950 ⇒ 00:24:22.570 Gabriel Lam: Yeah.

212 00:24:22.570 ⇒ 00:24:26.580 Clarence Stone: Right. So, I gave you… I gave them the very standard ones.

213 00:24:26.580 ⇒ 00:24:27.000 Gabriel Lam: Right.

214 00:24:27.000 ⇒ 00:24:35.159 Clarence Stone: Right? I even said there’s, like, a fourth role of, like… I called it Brain Forge Buddy, because, like, in consulting, there’s tons of buddy systems.

215 00:24:35.160 ⇒ 00:24:36.159 Gabriel Lam: Yup, yup, yep.

216 00:24:36.230 ⇒ 00:24:39.610 Clarence Stone: So, like, to me, it was natural, I understood exactly what that meant.

217 00:24:40.020 ⇒ 00:24:43.509 Clarence Stone: But, like, I don’t think that’s the coolest name for it.

218 00:24:43.510 ⇒ 00:24:44.360 Gabriel Lam: Hmm.

219 00:24:44.740 ⇒ 00:25:00.210 Clarence Stone: Right? Yeah. And, you know, I personally think that at BringForge, it could do… it could be more than somebody that just tells you where the bathroom is and how to book your travel. It should be a lot more than that, right? It should be that person who… so, Robert actually said this in our meeting.

220 00:25:00.210 ⇒ 00:25:07.400 Clarence Stone: It’s like, it’s so important that there’s somebody else in the organization that is rooting for you to win that isn’t us.

221 00:25:08.090 ⇒ 00:25:16.570 Clarence Stone: Robert Mutom, right? So you truly are the champion for this person, you want to see them succeed, you’re really mentoring them.

222 00:25:17.320 ⇒ 00:25:18.000 Clarence Stone: Right.

223 00:25:18.180 ⇒ 00:25:29.220 Clarence Stone: So, we haven’t found a great definition for that either. So, all ideas are welcome, Gabe, right? Yeah. But I do, like, want to kind of explain how we arrived at it.

224 00:25:29.580 ⇒ 00:25:30.230 Gabriel Lam: Hmm…

225 00:25:30.230 ⇒ 00:25:35.899 Clarence Stone: Right. And there’s tiers to that knowledge, so if I were to break down what, like.

226 00:25:36.040 ⇒ 00:25:44.649 Clarence Stone: Robert and you, Tom’s brain is… are turning on at any given time, there’s those three things that are at tension, like I explained, but there’s also, like.

227 00:25:45.110 ⇒ 00:26:02.510 Clarence Stone: like, kind of broadness in the understanding of the project. So, for example, I would say, if you’re somebody who’s pulling tickets, looking at the description, and creating that feature, right, you have that lowest level, like, story-level understanding of a project.

228 00:26:03.260 ⇒ 00:26:06.389 Clarence Stone: And that’s totally cool, if that’s, like, all you need to do your work.

229 00:26:06.400 ⇒ 00:26:07.320 Gabriel Lam: Perfect.

230 00:26:07.350 ⇒ 00:26:12.800 Clarence Stone: Right? But there is a project-level understanding. That project-level understanding is.

231 00:26:12.950 ⇒ 00:26:15.300 Clarence Stone: What problem are we solving for our client?

232 00:26:15.690 ⇒ 00:26:16.120 Gabriel Lam: Yeah.

233 00:26:16.120 ⇒ 00:26:19.809 Clarence Stone: Right? Like… how do they like to see things? Like…

234 00:26:20.280 ⇒ 00:26:25.000 Clarence Stone: When we did something before, did it work out well or not?

235 00:26:25.590 ⇒ 00:26:26.350 Clarence Stone: Right?

236 00:26:26.550 ⇒ 00:26:34.230 Clarence Stone: And then there’s that even higher level, at the client or, like, sort of the market category level.

237 00:26:34.230 ⇒ 00:26:50.689 Clarence Stone: it’s like, okay, we’re working with these snack food companies, right? We’ve got a cereal company, we’ve got Bite of Cocoa at some point, I saw it there, right? Like, hey, I see this commonality in these clients, right? Now that we locked in 2 or 3 of them, we should be chasing more of these.

238 00:26:50.690 ⇒ 00:26:51.600 Gabriel Lam: Mmm.

239 00:26:51.940 ⇒ 00:26:59.480 Clarence Stone: Right? Like, somebody who understands the market and the relationships that exist between Brainforge and other companies.

240 00:27:00.340 ⇒ 00:27:06.969 Clarence Stone: Right? And if you look at what they’re dealing with on a daily basis, they’re… they’re mentally bouncing up and down.

241 00:27:07.330 ⇒ 00:27:08.030 Gabriel Lam: Yep.

242 00:27:08.030 ⇒ 00:27:21.380 Clarence Stone: Right? Because, like, Robert will… or you, Tom, can come and say, hey, like, this is what we need to do, but in the background, it’s like, it’s because they understand the project, they understand the client, and they understand the market environment.

243 00:27:21.770 ⇒ 00:27:23.350 Clarence Stone: That’s why it’s a priority.

244 00:27:23.500 ⇒ 00:27:24.090 Gabriel Lam: Right.

245 00:27:24.730 ⇒ 00:27:31.460 Clarence Stone: Right? Now, I can’t throw all of that at once to you guys, so I just split it up in 3 chunks.

246 00:27:31.460 ⇒ 00:27:32.620 Gabriel Lam: No, yeah, I think, I think…

247 00:27:32.620 ⇒ 00:27:33.190 Clarence Stone: That makes sense.

248 00:27:33.190 ⇒ 00:27:34.179 Gabriel Lam: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

249 00:27:34.590 ⇒ 00:27:40.980 Gabriel Lam: Yeah, and I… I’m, like, the more I think about it, the more I’m seeing almost…

250 00:27:43.300 ⇒ 00:27:47.360 Gabriel Lam: Like, each… each component has… separate…

251 00:27:48.970 ⇒ 00:28:06.399 Gabriel Lam: ways of calling it, right? Like, I think what you call, like, customer… or client success is, like, you can call it customer experience, or customer satisfaction, or customer success, or even tech sales. Like, it’s got so many different other ways that people call it, and I think for people to…

252 00:28:07.680 ⇒ 00:28:17.169 Gabriel Lam: See that, hey, just because it’s got this name doesn’t mean it’s tied to that, or you can maybe craft your own and know that this is how it fits in the ecosystem.

253 00:28:17.300 ⇒ 00:28:18.170 Gabriel Lam: Yeah.

254 00:28:18.170 ⇒ 00:28:20.069 Clarence Stone: Unfortunately, we have to call it something.

255 00:28:20.070 ⇒ 00:28:22.090 Gabriel Lam: We do have to call it something, yeah.

256 00:28:22.090 ⇒ 00:28:37.570 Clarence Stone: going to be attached to something, right? So, I’m all ears on what the best way to do it is. And the way I plan on doing this is, I hope to just hold specific sessions for each one of these cohorts, so I will give you what I know.

257 00:28:37.570 ⇒ 00:28:43.770 Clarence Stone: about client relationships. I will give you what I know about strategy and planning. I’ll be very transparent at which ones I’m great at and where’s at.

258 00:28:43.770 ⇒ 00:28:45.830 Clarence Stone: Right,

259 00:28:46.100 ⇒ 00:28:52.510 Clarence Stone: But I hope that you’re able to, you know, pick up one piece, right, and eventually grow to be better at me than that.

260 00:28:52.510 ⇒ 00:28:59.219 Gabriel Lam: I mean, I think that’s the goal for everyone, right? To be… to have something that they can feel proud of and, like, work on.

261 00:28:59.220 ⇒ 00:29:00.170 Clarence Stone: Yeah, exactly.

262 00:29:00.540 ⇒ 00:29:09.440 Clarence Stone: And that proudness comes from being explicitly told you own this, and then seeing yourself carry out that ownership.

263 00:29:10.220 ⇒ 00:29:26.509 Clarence Stone: Right? Like, how do we measure, you know, good customer success? Well, did you deliver all your projects on time, and is the client giving you great ratings? So, like, one of the things that I talked to you, Tom and Lauren, about is, like, hey, we need to do a Net Promoter, you know, follow-up email.

264 00:29:26.720 ⇒ 00:29:31.890 Clarence Stone: Just saying hi to the client and asking, you know, just for a quick survey on how they thought things went.

265 00:29:31.890 ⇒ 00:29:32.470 Gabriel Lam: Yeah.

266 00:29:32.780 ⇒ 00:29:39.310 Clarence Stone: Right? And, like, I wouldn’t ever, you know, let that go without using it as a marketing opportunity.

267 00:29:39.800 ⇒ 00:29:52.550 Clarence Stone: give us high scores, like, it should say, like, hey, if you’d like to refer us, like, here’s all the details, right? Or even, like, would you mind if we gave you a shout-out and highlighted the case study that we did with you?

268 00:29:52.550 ⇒ 00:29:53.030 Gabriel Lam: Mmm…

269 00:29:53.030 ⇒ 00:29:58.909 Clarence Stone: Right? So that you can even get more, you know, notoriety or publicity for the things that we just did together, right?

270 00:29:59.370 ⇒ 00:30:11.240 Clarence Stone: But you realize that being able to pick that up means that, like, my perception there, I’m playing as a customer success owner, I’m also playing as a strategist, I’m also understanding the market.

271 00:30:11.960 ⇒ 00:30:12.820 Clarence Stone: Right?

272 00:30:12.820 ⇒ 00:30:13.320 Gabriel Lam: Yup.

273 00:30:13.320 ⇒ 00:30:21.630 Clarence Stone: and bolting that on. And if I just gave you one siloed role and said, you can never get out of this game, you wouldn’t think about those ancillaries.

274 00:30:21.630 ⇒ 00:30:22.340 Gabriel Lam: Exactly, yeah.

275 00:30:22.340 ⇒ 00:30:22.890 Clarence Stone: Right.

276 00:30:23.040 ⇒ 00:30:23.630 Gabriel Lam: Yeah.

277 00:30:24.450 ⇒ 00:30:28.640 Gabriel Lam: Okay! I think that, yeah, thank you, that clears up a lot,

278 00:30:30.050 ⇒ 00:30:32.490 Gabriel Lam: Okay, I see it. I see the vision.

279 00:30:32.630 ⇒ 00:30:36.109 Clarence Stone: And a couple other things, well, you know.

280 00:30:36.430 ⇒ 00:30:41.370 Clarence Stone: I haven’t shown you the slide deck at all, so… Let’s actually… quick.

281 00:30:41.370 ⇒ 00:30:45.420 Gabriel Lam: Yeah, also, if you ever need to hop out, like, we can always…

282 00:30:45.700 ⇒ 00:30:46.349 Clarence Stone: No, no, I’m good.

283 00:30:46.350 ⇒ 00:30:46.720 Gabriel Lam: later.

284 00:30:46.720 ⇒ 00:30:56.330 Clarence Stone: I’m good till 4, we booked till the top of the hour, right? Yeah. Okay, good. Yeah, yeah, we did, okay, we have time. Yeah, I locked your time in, bro, don’t worry.

285 00:30:56.330 ⇒ 00:30:58.350 Gabriel Lam: Awesome, thank you.

286 00:30:59.900 ⇒ 00:31:01.780 Clarence Stone: What was I gonna show you?

287 00:31:01.920 ⇒ 00:31:07.339 Clarence Stone: There’s so much. Oh, okay. So, just like to level set on how I like to think.

288 00:31:07.350 ⇒ 00:31:22.270 Clarence Stone: Right? I didn’t just give this slide deck over, I stopped and said, you, Tom, Robert, this is how I thought of, you know, this is what I thought of as guiding principles, or my mental model for how I designed this solution for you. First off, like.

289 00:31:22.410 ⇒ 00:31:39.430 Clarence Stone: you’re not, like, we’ve got to observe, identify, and shape. So, you’ll see, like, on these other slides, I had one-on-one conversations with you and some others, and got some really great insights, and said, okay, I really sort of start to understand the shape of the problems that are happening, right? Like, when…

290 00:31:39.520 ⇒ 00:31:50.320 Clarence Stone: when somebody says, hey, I’d like to batch my tasks, and it’s really hard for me to understand what the priority is for today, and sometimes I end up pushing something to the afternoon, because I use it for deep thinking time, and realized it was due up in the morning.

291 00:31:51.400 ⇒ 00:31:59.690 Clarence Stone: Like, that’s giving me an understanding that there’s nobody this person could have gotten to to really understand what, like, the priority was.

292 00:31:59.690 ⇒ 00:32:06.809 Gabriel Lam: Right? They didn’t have a name for somebody who would own the strategy and plan of these projects, right?

293 00:32:06.810 ⇒ 00:32:16.210 Clarence Stone: So, number one, like, I’m always gonna talk to people, identify, and then propose a solution. I’m, like, none of this existed until I started talking to everyone.

294 00:32:16.960 ⇒ 00:32:20.440 Clarence Stone: Two, like, At every path.

295 00:32:20.540 ⇒ 00:32:36.340 Clarence Stone: I do want every team member to be incentivized and feeling the pressure to use AI enhancements, right? So, if, you know, today, you look at any of these roles and you go, man, that’s daunting, that’s, like, a lot more work than, you know, I thought I would have.

296 00:32:36.360 ⇒ 00:32:41.400 Clarence Stone: Well, always remember, UTOM has never said no to any AI solution.

297 00:32:42.020 ⇒ 00:32:44.399 Clarence Stone: Right? Wallet’s always open for that. So.

298 00:32:44.400 ⇒ 00:32:44.810 Gabriel Lam: Yup.

299 00:32:44.810 ⇒ 00:32:50.019 Clarence Stone: You know, you should feel the pressure to use some sort of automation to make your life easier.

300 00:32:50.510 ⇒ 00:33:05.680 Clarence Stone: Right? And share that with the group, right? And so that all others can benefit. And then feed forward is, like, I don’t want you to just think about, like, solving your current problem, right? Think about how this solution might be a problem tomorrow.

301 00:33:06.720 ⇒ 00:33:15.889 Clarence Stone: Because what this organization has with that product mentality is the leverage to scale a product across many other services and engagements.

302 00:33:16.180 ⇒ 00:33:23.770 Gabriel Lam: Right, right. Which is, I think, the main thing I was… I would like to see. The main thing I was worried was, like, a lack of scalability.

303 00:33:24.760 ⇒ 00:33:30.670 Clarence Stone: Yeah. Let me, I’m almost out of charge, so I’m listening to you, I’m just gonna go grab my charger.

304 00:33:30.670 ⇒ 00:33:31.540 Gabriel Lam: You’re good.

305 00:33:39.130 ⇒ 00:33:56.480 Clarence Stone: And then, like, my… my four guiding rules, like, every solution I provide needs to comply with this, or I just won’t be happy with the solution, right? One, I think everybody needs to have skin in the game and some ownership of some small piece of Brainforge. It doesn’t have to be the, you know.

306 00:33:56.480 ⇒ 00:34:09.170 Clarence Stone: 10-ton backpack that Robert and Utom wear on a daily basis, but maybe a couple pounds here and there, right, where you start to understand, okay, like, I actually understand this organization, what we do, and my role in it.

307 00:34:09.510 ⇒ 00:34:10.389 Clarence Stone: Right?

308 00:34:10.420 ⇒ 00:34:27.020 Clarence Stone: I want to increase collisions. So, one of the things that I heard from the team was, you know, we work remotely, people come and go, stand-up’s the only time where we get to talk, and there are times where, you know, people have joined for, like, weeks, and I haven’t had a chance to talk to them.

309 00:34:27.040 ⇒ 00:34:34.919 Clarence Stone: Yeah. So I solved that problem in two ways. One, saying, let’s have a buddy program, where somebody is advocating for your success on day one.

310 00:34:35.130 ⇒ 00:34:35.699 Gabriel Lam: Yup.

311 00:34:35.920 ⇒ 00:34:40.259 Clarence Stone: Two, let’s actually, you know, take,

312 00:34:40.980 ⇒ 00:34:44.940 Clarence Stone: Take this to our advantage. Create roles where you’re forced to talk to each other.

313 00:34:44.949 ⇒ 00:34:45.699 Gabriel Lam: Hmm.

314 00:34:45.699 ⇒ 00:34:52.179 Clarence Stone: Now, when you have a customer success owner, and a strategist, and a planner, and a service leader, you can’t avoid talking to each other.

315 00:34:52.179 ⇒ 00:34:52.539 Gabriel Lam: Yeah.

316 00:34:52.540 ⇒ 00:34:54.880 Clarence Stone: You have to. You have to resolve it, right?

317 00:34:54.880 ⇒ 00:34:55.210 Gabriel Lam: Yeah.

318 00:34:55.219 ⇒ 00:35:05.279 Clarence Stone: like, the incentives are… are slightly different. Yeah. You are all trying to get to the same goal, but there’s a different lens in which you want to arrive there.

319 00:35:05.450 ⇒ 00:35:06.110 Gabriel Lam: Yeah.

320 00:35:06.110 ⇒ 00:35:13.280 Clarence Stone: Right? And that… that conversation should be happening naturally, outside of, like, stand-ups, because that’s not an efficient place to have it.

321 00:35:13.280 ⇒ 00:35:13.870 Gabriel Lam: Yeah.

322 00:35:14.210 ⇒ 00:35:22.530 Gabriel Lam: Yeah, I would even argue to have multiple buddies, and I think… I think, Lauren in Ops had brought up previously about Donut

323 00:35:22.910 ⇒ 00:35:24.059 Gabriel Lam: Which is, like, just…

324 00:35:24.350 ⇒ 00:35:37.750 Gabriel Lam: putting two people together, and it’s… I see it as just, like, the coffee chat equivalent here. But I think that is so important, because even when I had buddies, you could so easily just

325 00:35:39.080 ⇒ 00:35:40.590 Gabriel Lam: Silo yourselves.

326 00:35:40.590 ⇒ 00:35:40.970 Clarence Stone: Yeah.

327 00:35:40.970 ⇒ 00:35:54.760 Gabriel Lam: And I think the randomness really helps to be like, hey, I’m not just gonna be always talking with my buddy. If I have multiple buddies, it really expands the network of who I am connected with in the company, so…

328 00:35:54.870 ⇒ 00:35:58.059 Gabriel Lam: you know, Like, Clarence, you might have been…

329 00:35:58.060 ⇒ 00:35:58.450 Clarence Stone: beyond that.

330 00:35:58.450 ⇒ 00:36:05.130 Gabriel Lam: three degrees away, and because of multiple buddies, now you’re just a second degree away. And I think that’s really important as well.

331 00:36:05.420 ⇒ 00:36:14.159 Clarence Stone: Yeah, that’s such a good point, Gabe. So, like, beyond that, like, when I said that there is a growth path in mind for every role, I really think

332 00:36:14.490 ⇒ 00:36:33.629 Clarence Stone: you know, the buddy becomes somebody who’s a counselor at some point, who’s able to provide feedback and ratings, and, you know, provide guidance. And it’s not an adversarial way, it’s like, hey, you’re crushing it, here’s the ways I see you crushing it, here’s the ways I think, you know, I can provide you some, you know.

333 00:36:33.630 ⇒ 00:36:38.229 Clarence Stone: advice, or, or, you know, point you in the right direction.

334 00:36:38.230 ⇒ 00:36:41.990 Clarence Stone: You know, let’s talk about a goal that you might have in mind for next year.

335 00:36:41.990 ⇒ 00:36:44.370 Gabriel Lam: And how I can help you get there.

336 00:36:44.520 ⇒ 00:36:45.140 Gabriel Lam: Yep.

337 00:36:45.330 ⇒ 00:36:46.830 Clarence Stone: Right? So…

338 00:36:47.100 ⇒ 00:36:54.660 Clarence Stone: Increasing collisions, like, I think these conversations are eventually going to happen naturally, because if you have people who are

339 00:36:54.990 ⇒ 00:37:04.669 Clarence Stone: like, customer success… or client success owners, right, and you just get assigned to the project. First person that I would pick up and call is, hey, who owns ABC?

340 00:37:04.820 ⇒ 00:37:05.330 Gabriel Lam: Hmm.

341 00:37:05.330 ⇒ 00:37:08.939 Clarence Stone: Oh, this person knows ABC. Okay, let me just throw 30 minutes at this…

342 00:37:09.140 ⇒ 00:37:17.210 Clarence Stone: For this person, and really, we’re gonna use, like, 15 minutes, and all I’ll ask is, like, hey, I’m about to go talk to them, like, is there anything I should know?

343 00:37:17.210 ⇒ 00:37:17.820 Gabriel Lam: Yeah.

344 00:37:17.820 ⇒ 00:37:31.910 Clarence Stone: Right? And it should be a quick rundown, like, hey, ABC does this, these are the projects that we’ve done before, this is the person you’re typically, you know, we typically interface with. This is the kind of stuff that they like. Oh, and by the way, they have two kids and a dog.

345 00:37:32.200 ⇒ 00:37:32.870 Gabriel Lam: Hmm.

346 00:37:33.340 ⇒ 00:37:45.590 Clarence Stone: Right. And it’s… that’s the scene for, like, the relationship that Brainforge has with this client. It allows me to actually be super personal on the phone, because I’m, like, downloaded on what they care about.

347 00:37:46.060 ⇒ 00:37:46.740 Clarence Stone: Right.

348 00:37:46.850 ⇒ 00:37:50.809 Clarence Stone: But I’m also forced to speak to this person that I may not have talked to.

349 00:37:50.810 ⇒ 00:37:51.570 Gabriel Lam: Right.

350 00:37:51.570 ⇒ 00:37:52.220 Clarence Stone: Right.

351 00:37:52.490 ⇒ 00:38:01.430 Clarence Stone: So Principle 3, I guess, is Everybody, somebody, anybody, nobody is… you know.

352 00:38:02.040 ⇒ 00:38:08.760 Clarence Stone: If you’ve spent time in consulting, you have probably heard some MD or partner yell, why doesn’t somebody fix this?

353 00:38:08.980 ⇒ 00:38:10.810 Gabriel Lam: Right.

354 00:38:10.810 ⇒ 00:38:13.149 Clarence Stone: Does anybody have a solution for this in this room?

355 00:38:13.150 ⇒ 00:38:13.680 Gabriel Lam: Yep.

356 00:38:13.680 ⇒ 00:38:16.449 Clarence Stone: Right? Why is nobody listening? Right.

357 00:38:16.620 ⇒ 00:38:25.589 Clarence Stone: Those words are used when there’s a diffusion of responsibility and no one is given clear directive that they own something.

358 00:38:25.590 ⇒ 00:38:26.350 Gabriel Lam: Hmm.

359 00:38:27.430 ⇒ 00:38:33.430 Clarence Stone: Right? So, how can I be mad at a project team when they’re behind plan.

360 00:38:33.820 ⇒ 00:38:36.690 Clarence Stone: But nobody was responsible for the plan except me.

361 00:38:39.690 ⇒ 00:38:46.130 Clarence Stone: Right? Like, how could I have expected and demanded of you guys to, like, bug me for a plan before it was too late?

362 00:38:46.580 ⇒ 00:38:47.210 Gabriel Lam: Yeah.

363 00:38:47.210 ⇒ 00:38:58.540 Clarence Stone: Right? That’s just unfair, right? So a lot of, like, stress or tension really does come from, like, just not knowing what your left and right lanes of ownership and limits are.

364 00:38:59.630 ⇒ 00:39:00.340 Gabriel Lam: Hmm.

365 00:39:00.340 ⇒ 00:39:08.900 Clarence Stone: So I want to be able to craft very distinct, you know, ownership. Like, as a… as a, you know, a strategist and a planner, right?

366 00:39:09.190 ⇒ 00:39:13.500 Clarence Stone: You own the, like, executing that vision and the milestones.

367 00:39:13.700 ⇒ 00:39:15.539 Clarence Stone: Right. You are…

368 00:39:15.660 ⇒ 00:39:22.879 Clarence Stone: Free to move that schedule around, as long as you come to a consensus with a customer success owner, right?

369 00:39:22.920 ⇒ 00:39:35.889 Clarence Stone: Maybe, you know, like, team’s taking a lot of vacations, and you just need to move something back. You pick up the phone, talk to the client success owner, and say, hey, how important is this?

370 00:39:36.200 ⇒ 00:39:44.459 Clarence Stone: meeting for next week, because it might be a week late, right? That person should have a pulse on how to handle that interaction with the client.

371 00:39:44.460 ⇒ 00:39:44.920 Gabriel Lam: Yep.

372 00:39:44.920 ⇒ 00:39:48.689 Clarence Stone: Yeah, so you know, like, oh, this is a picky client? Hell no. Like, Gabe got…

373 00:39:48.690 ⇒ 00:39:53.919 Gabriel Lam: Like, we gotta get it out this week, whereas maybe a more lenient client might be like, oh, it’s okay, we can push it later.

374 00:39:53.920 ⇒ 00:40:05.960 Clarence Stone: And then all of a sudden, you, the two of you, would be able to turn around to Robert and you, Tom, and say, hey, this is what we did because of this, and here’s the new timeline.

375 00:40:06.750 ⇒ 00:40:09.410 Clarence Stone: Well, there’s nothing to be upset about at that point.

376 00:40:11.500 ⇒ 00:40:12.479 Gabriel Lam: Right. Right?

377 00:40:12.480 ⇒ 00:40:19.080 Clarence Stone: So, I want to get to a point in Brainforge where we don’t think about, who do I need to go to for X, Y, and Z.

378 00:40:19.890 ⇒ 00:40:20.750 Gabriel Lam: Hmm…

379 00:40:20.750 ⇒ 00:40:21.460 Clarence Stone: Right?

380 00:40:21.670 ⇒ 00:40:24.910 Clarence Stone: I want there to be a name to all of those things.

381 00:40:26.000 ⇒ 00:40:30.780 Clarence Stone: Right. And it’s a small piece of a 10-pound rucksack that you, Tom, and Robert are carrying on a daily.

382 00:40:30.780 ⇒ 00:40:31.760 Gabriel Lam: Yeah, yeah.

383 00:40:31.760 ⇒ 00:40:43.780 Clarence Stone: Yeah. So, and lastly, by the way, amazing book, highly recommended. Mythical Man Month was this book made, like, written in the 60s or 70s by a

384 00:40:44.080 ⇒ 00:40:47.689 Clarence Stone: Like, a really good backend developer.

385 00:40:47.900 ⇒ 00:40:58.760 Clarence Stone: He’s a computer coder. And basically, he made graphs, charts, and visualizations explaining how adding people to teams, at some point, is going to slow a project down.

386 00:41:00.300 ⇒ 00:41:17.759 Clarence Stone: And the theoretical, like, optimization is, like, somewhere in, like, 3 to 5 people, depending on the size and complexity of the project. So I kept that in mind, and I go, I’m probably not ever, at this point, with, like, current staffing and workload, ever going to suggest that you make bigger teams.

387 00:41:17.900 ⇒ 00:41:20.720 Gabriel Lam: It’s only gonna slow you guys down.

388 00:41:22.390 ⇒ 00:41:31.450 Clarence Stone: Right. Like, think about having to communicate a milestone or plan change to 20 people if we threw 20 people at a project.

389 00:41:31.750 ⇒ 00:41:33.300 Clarence Stone: It’s just ineffective.

390 00:41:33.850 ⇒ 00:41:40.560 Clarence Stone: Right? But if it’s between 3 or 4 people in a team, like, hey, we’re shifting this, got it, got it, got it, great.

391 00:41:40.720 ⇒ 00:41:41.270 Gabriel Lam: Yeah.

392 00:41:41.600 ⇒ 00:41:42.220 Clarence Stone: Right.

393 00:41:42.600 ⇒ 00:41:49.679 Clarence Stone: So, those are the things that I kept in mind, and if I ever break these rules, I want you to remind me, too. That’s why I walked you through this.

394 00:41:50.270 ⇒ 00:41:57.990 Clarence Stone: Right? I want to be true to why these changes are happening, and that, you know, it’s super transparent to you guys, the thinking process that went behind it.

395 00:42:01.460 ⇒ 00:42:02.340 Gabriel Lam: Okay.

396 00:42:06.850 ⇒ 00:42:07.730 Gabriel Lam: I see.

397 00:42:11.050 ⇒ 00:42:13.140 Gabriel Lam: Yeah, I, I, I think the…

398 00:42:13.450 ⇒ 00:42:15.780 Gabriel Lam: what I’m taking from that is,

399 00:42:16.030 ⇒ 00:42:22.360 Gabriel Lam: Or it seems to me that the… This eventually helps.

400 00:42:22.930 ⇒ 00:42:29.599 Gabriel Lam: To create a system where How do I say it?

401 00:42:30.970 ⇒ 00:42:34.440 Gabriel Lam: The amount of value that you add is not really…

402 00:42:34.900 ⇒ 00:42:41.740 Gabriel Lam: Well, I would like to think that eventually the amount of value that you create or add or return is…

403 00:42:43.200 ⇒ 00:42:47.730 Gabriel Lam: less… Connected to the amount of time you throw at a problem.

404 00:42:49.560 ⇒ 00:42:54.770 Gabriel Lam: Which is the goal, right? Like, because that’s scalable. You can’t just be like, oh, I’m, you know, I’m…

405 00:42:54.890 ⇒ 00:42:55.999 Gabriel Lam: Which is, like…

406 00:42:56.300 ⇒ 00:43:14.949 Gabriel Lam: I guess to clients, we’re, like, worth, you know, what, $200,$300 an hour? But eventually, the goal is to not have that be the limitation of, like, my time, or Utam’s time, or whoever’s time is worth this much, and we’re gonna charge by that, but then to allow teams to be like, okay, if we notice

407 00:43:15.470 ⇒ 00:43:20.530 Gabriel Lam: That we can build out a system that we can then carry on for other…

408 00:43:20.810 ⇒ 00:43:27.220 Gabriel Lam: clients, and to build that out well now, that… exponentially increases

409 00:43:28.200 ⇒ 00:43:38.900 Gabriel Lam: not only how quickly we can deliver something, but also it freezes up to maybe explore other things with our time, to be like, hey, we can build out a better system, or we can try out new tools.

410 00:43:39.150 ⇒ 00:43:39.689 Clarence Stone: Maybe we can…

411 00:43:39.690 ⇒ 00:43:47.810 Gabriel Lam: We got some things that we wouldn’t have had time to if not for the fact that we chose to build out in a sort of product mentality to begin with.

412 00:43:47.810 ⇒ 00:44:01.590 Clarence Stone: And I want these teams to hold each other responsible. So, if the service leader has an optimization that can really improve delivery on certain projects, right, and the customer success owner just sold a bunch of work.

413 00:44:01.990 ⇒ 00:44:17.040 Clarence Stone: Right? And, like, really just sold a third or fourth project, and there’s some margin there. Like, I’d like the two of them to come together and say, hey, we’d like to propose a project and spend some of the money that we made on this additional game.

414 00:44:18.160 ⇒ 00:44:27.369 Clarence Stone: Right? Because it’ll support the interests of the service leader, it would also support the interests of the client success owner.

415 00:44:28.340 ⇒ 00:44:29.060 Clarence Stone: Right.

416 00:44:29.200 ⇒ 00:44:34.470 Clarence Stone: I want you guys to bend together and start to solve problems together.

417 00:44:34.470 ⇒ 00:44:35.010 Gabriel Lam: Yeah.

418 00:44:35.010 ⇒ 00:44:38.259 Clarence Stone: Instead of saying, like, hey, this person owns it, like.

419 00:44:38.260 ⇒ 00:44:41.549 Gabriel Lam: Like, don’t talk to me, kind of thing, yeah, yeah, yeah.

420 00:44:41.550 ⇒ 00:44:42.060 Clarence Stone: Yeah.

421 00:44:42.520 ⇒ 00:44:47.680 Clarence Stone: Right? Because, like, in order, at some point, the service leader’s gonna be like, dude, I’m so overloaded.

422 00:44:48.230 ⇒ 00:44:48.880 Clarence Stone: Right.

423 00:44:49.270 ⇒ 00:44:50.120 Clarence Stone: like…

424 00:44:50.440 ⇒ 00:45:01.609 Clarence Stone: you’ve got to sit down and say, hey, team, like, this is where I’m at, this is where my deficiencies are, and everyone should be interested in that, because everyone’s gonna suffer for this.

425 00:45:02.070 ⇒ 00:45:10.550 Clarence Stone: It’s not just the service leader. Like, you guys can’t sit down and just be like, well, that’s gonna suck for you, because this structure is made so that everybody’s interdependent.

426 00:45:10.950 ⇒ 00:45:12.829 Clarence Stone: You guys are truly a team here.

427 00:45:16.250 ⇒ 00:45:16.880 Gabriel Lam: Yeah.

428 00:45:22.360 ⇒ 00:45:24.550 Gabriel Lam: Yes, I’m seeing the vision.

429 00:45:24.550 ⇒ 00:45:28.280 Clarence Stone: And the beauty of that, then, is that we…

430 00:45:28.770 ⇒ 00:45:33.949 Clarence Stone: Have less of a key man risk, and everyone can kind of take vacation and have a breath.

431 00:45:34.400 ⇒ 00:45:48.689 Clarence Stone: because they’re not the only touchpoint that knows that topic, right? Right. So, like, your client success owner, if they go on vacation, your strategist and planner knows a lot about what’s going on. If they gotta cover a meeting or two, they got it.

432 00:45:49.380 ⇒ 00:46:06.960 Clarence Stone: Right? And, you know, same thing for the service leader. If they’re out of town, the strategist knows exactly what’s the important pieces. And they can fill in, you know, for a few, you know, meetings, right? And I think, naturally, that’s also going to be how you pick up a feeling of, hey, I actually like doing that instead.

433 00:46:07.680 ⇒ 00:46:09.560 Clarence Stone: Right, I did this while Clarence was out.

434 00:46:10.580 ⇒ 00:46:11.649 Clarence Stone: Piggy, you know, I’ll.

435 00:46:11.650 ⇒ 00:46:13.730 Gabriel Lam: I wanna do something like what he does, yeah.

436 00:46:13.730 ⇒ 00:46:17.370 Clarence Stone: Yeah, exactly. Right? And you already got a taste of what it’s like.

437 00:46:18.160 ⇒ 00:46:20.329 Clarence Stone: Right? But at the end of the day.

438 00:46:20.400 ⇒ 00:46:39.559 Clarence Stone: what I hope that this does is it communicates to everybody that there is growth in this company, and that growth is also bestowed to every employee. Because there’s always this feeling when you work that, you know, like, you see the numbers, you see the wins, and you just go like, where’s… where’s mine? What about me?

439 00:46:40.450 ⇒ 00:46:49.380 Clarence Stone: Right? Like, companies growing, is Gabe growing? Is Clarence growing? Right? I… like, this should communicate that there is a path to growth.

440 00:46:50.110 ⇒ 00:46:56.589 Clarence Stone: Right? And I promise you, there’s, like, future roles, like I was saying. So, like, I want people to wake up and say, that is a growth path I like.

441 00:46:57.000 ⇒ 00:46:59.110 Clarence Stone: I wanna… I wanna wake up and strive for that.

442 00:46:59.110 ⇒ 00:46:59.760 Gabriel Lam: Right.

443 00:46:59.930 ⇒ 00:47:06.729 Clarence Stone: Right, and by the way, if you just want to be a contributor at Brainforge and pull tickets and do great work, there’s nothing wrong with that.

444 00:47:06.730 ⇒ 00:47:07.200 Gabriel Lam: Right.

445 00:47:07.410 ⇒ 00:47:13.410 Clarence Stone: But I don’t want it to be that you’re doing that because you didn’t know that there was a way to grow.

446 00:47:13.660 ⇒ 00:47:14.300 Gabriel Lam: Right.

447 00:47:14.500 ⇒ 00:47:20.480 Gabriel Lam: And I think it gives people the agency to decide, be like, hey, if I want to…

448 00:47:21.240 ⇒ 00:47:29.819 Gabriel Lam: get to where I want to go, I know how to get there, I know who to talk to to get there, I know exactly how long it might take to get there, and I think…

449 00:47:30.420 ⇒ 00:47:36.259 Gabriel Lam: that’s part of the skin in the game, right? It’s like, I have additional layers of motivation, aside from, like.

450 00:47:36.770 ⇒ 00:47:39.159 Gabriel Lam: getting paid, you know?

451 00:47:39.160 ⇒ 00:47:46.179 Clarence Stone: And that’s really the point. I think, you know, one of the things that I told you, Tom.

452 00:47:46.340 ⇒ 00:47:53.239 Clarence Stone: was we have to be open-handed with knowledge, and they have been. They’re, like, this is the most open company I’ve ever seen, right?

453 00:47:53.740 ⇒ 00:48:05.120 Clarence Stone: So, at the… like, at a point where you’re good at all three of those things, technically, Gabe, you can just drop everything and say, I’m gonna start my own shop. Because you have every single skill set you need.

454 00:48:05.300 ⇒ 00:48:05.930 Gabriel Lam: Right.

455 00:48:06.190 ⇒ 00:48:17.230 Clarence Stone: Right, so then the question for Brainforge is, how do we create somebody excellent like Gabe, how do we create an environment for him where he wants to stay and he’ll experiment on building services here instead?

456 00:48:19.040 ⇒ 00:48:26.210 Clarence Stone: Right? That’s the back pressure that I’m listening and watching for to release the next cycle of growth rolls.

457 00:48:26.630 ⇒ 00:48:27.540 Gabriel Lam: Hmm…

458 00:48:30.530 ⇒ 00:48:37.680 Clarence Stone: Right, so I am watching for signals like that. Yeah. Right, so let’s say we activate this 6 months down the line, you know, somebody’s grid out all 3.

459 00:48:38.730 ⇒ 00:48:41.000 Clarence Stone: Like, we gotta talk, man.

460 00:48:42.310 ⇒ 00:48:47.009 Clarence Stone: Alright, what do you want to own here? You know, like, I don’t want it to be naturally, like, okay, one day I’m out.

461 00:48:47.440 ⇒ 00:48:48.170 Gabriel Lam: Yeah.

462 00:48:48.170 ⇒ 00:48:48.920 Clarence Stone: Right.

463 00:48:49.100 ⇒ 00:48:54.230 Clarence Stone: So… There’s no secret. We’re giving you the playbook.

464 00:48:54.420 ⇒ 00:48:54.970 Gabriel Lam: Yeah.

465 00:48:54.970 ⇒ 00:48:56.369 Clarence Stone: It’s in 3 pieces.

466 00:48:56.370 ⇒ 00:48:57.010 Gabriel Lam: Yeah.

467 00:48:58.880 ⇒ 00:49:01.430 Gabriel Lam: Yeah, I mean, I think the…

468 00:49:02.430 ⇒ 00:49:07.890 Gabriel Lam: Yeah, I see that, like, if people are moving on I don’t…

469 00:49:08.070 ⇒ 00:49:10.500 Gabriel Lam: I don’t know, I think I personally see it as, like.

470 00:49:10.610 ⇒ 00:49:14.710 Gabriel Lam: Everyone has their reasons for doing it, and it shouldn’t really be…

471 00:49:15.610 ⇒ 00:49:19.520 Gabriel Lam: like, if someone were to be like, oh, you know, Gabe, like, I’m gonna…

472 00:49:19.790 ⇒ 00:49:28.120 Gabriel Lam: I’ve got something going on, like, I’m gonna step away from Brainforge, in the next season. And I’d be like, okay, that sounds great, like, I totally get it, I see where you’re coming from.

473 00:49:28.270 ⇒ 00:49:31.439 Gabriel Lam: like, I would rather that than, like, be like, hey, I…

474 00:49:31.440 ⇒ 00:49:32.870 Clarence Stone: I don’t feel like…

475 00:49:33.640 ⇒ 00:49:40.059 Gabriel Lam: you know, this place is… that I can do what I want to do here. Yeah. Which maybe at some point is the case, and I think that’s totally fine.

476 00:49:40.060 ⇒ 00:49:48.809 Clarence Stone: Maybe, you know, this line of work wasn’t perfect for you, that’s okay. Right. But what I don’t want is what I experience right here in this building at EY.

477 00:49:48.810 ⇒ 00:49:49.250 Gabriel Lam: Hmm.

478 00:49:49.250 ⇒ 00:49:53.100 Clarence Stone: is… I owned an entire service line.

479 00:49:53.290 ⇒ 00:49:56.460 Clarence Stone: I made $46 million 3 years running.

480 00:49:56.460 ⇒ 00:49:57.020 Gabriel Lam: Yeah.

481 00:49:57.410 ⇒ 00:49:59.819 Clarence Stone: And I was told there is no growth.

482 00:49:59.950 ⇒ 00:50:00.550 Gabriel Lam: Yeah.

483 00:50:01.460 ⇒ 00:50:04.599 Clarence Stone: Right. So, what am I supposed to do?

484 00:50:04.600 ⇒ 00:50:05.310 Gabriel Lam: Right.

485 00:50:05.310 ⇒ 00:50:08.999 Clarence Stone: Right? So I’ve communicated that, hey.

486 00:50:09.000 ⇒ 00:50:28.330 Clarence Stone: This layer of job, like, role communication, it’s easy. But once we go higher and higher, and y’all just become awesome, like, independent owners that can do a lot of these things, there must be a way for us to retain this amazing talent, right? Continue to give you more skin in the game, continue to give you more incentives.

487 00:50:28.330 ⇒ 00:50:32.359 Gabriel Lam: That’s right. Or even, I would argue, to be like, hey, if people…

488 00:50:33.020 ⇒ 00:50:38.280 Gabriel Lam: do want to go out and do their own thing to become, like, partners or something, right?

489 00:50:38.280 ⇒ 00:50:39.280 Clarence Stone: Absolutely, yeah.

490 00:50:39.280 ⇒ 00:50:42.900 Gabriel Lam: That structure and that, like, level of…

491 00:50:43.390 ⇒ 00:50:53.670 Gabriel Lam: transparency really supports, like, hey, I had a great time at Brainforge, now that I’m out doing my own thing, like, I’m more than happy to do something together when we have the chance, and I think that’s a great.

492 00:50:53.670 ⇒ 00:50:55.769 Clarence Stone: I’m back in the same building, right, Gabe?

493 00:50:55.770 ⇒ 00:50:56.150 Gabriel Lam: Yeah.

494 00:50:56.150 ⇒ 00:51:04.740 Clarence Stone: And, you know, they upheld one piece of that, is like, you know, I think Brainforge naturally is going to want to do that, because we like to work with people we like.

495 00:51:05.150 ⇒ 00:51:10.020 Clarence Stone: Right? And if you’re an all-star here, and you’re starting your own shop, we want to work with you, too!

496 00:51:10.020 ⇒ 00:51:10.670 Gabriel Lam: Yeah.

497 00:51:10.930 ⇒ 00:51:16.840 Clarence Stone: Right? So, yeah, absolutely. Like, you know, let’s support you in that direction you want to go as well.

498 00:51:16.840 ⇒ 00:51:17.380 Gabriel Lam: Yeah.

499 00:51:19.860 ⇒ 00:51:24.770 Gabriel Lam: Awesome. Well, you have, like, more than answered all the questions that I had.

500 00:51:24.770 ⇒ 00:51:25.320 Clarence Stone: It’s okay.

501 00:51:25.320 ⇒ 00:51:26.250 Gabriel Lam: Thank you.

502 00:51:26.510 ⇒ 00:51:32.580 Gabriel Lam: I appreciate it a lot. I’m sure, like, we’re only, like, 10 slides in as well, so…

503 00:51:32.580 ⇒ 00:51:41.240 Clarence Stone: Yeah, and if you think about it this way, like, I want you to think about, like, what you’re doing today as a first-person shooter, right? You have a very straightforward task.

504 00:51:41.240 ⇒ 00:51:48.129 Gabriel Lam: But I want everyone to shift towards, like, a Starcraft mentality, where you see all the moving pieces, and you’re commanding a piece of it. Yeah.

505 00:51:48.690 ⇒ 00:51:54.039 Clarence Stone: Right? And once you’re actually commanding all of it, well, hey, welcome to the Thunderdome.

506 00:51:54.040 ⇒ 00:51:56.429 Gabriel Lam: Right? Which kingdom do you want to own?

507 00:51:56.570 ⇒ 00:51:57.290 Gabriel Lam: Right.

508 00:51:58.240 ⇒ 00:51:59.050 Gabriel Lam: Yeah.

509 00:51:59.920 ⇒ 00:52:02.180 Gabriel Lam: I think that’s so true. I think… I mean…

510 00:52:02.370 ⇒ 00:52:09.069 Gabriel Lam: I feel that’s a ton, because I’m, like, I feel like I’m moving from what used to be a very first-person

511 00:52:09.820 ⇒ 00:52:10.970 Gabriel Lam: Perspective.

512 00:52:11.040 ⇒ 00:52:16.939 Clarence Stone: Outwards, and it’s like, okay, there’s all these things that you need to consider, and getting used to juggling many things.

513 00:52:17.060 ⇒ 00:52:23.630 Gabriel Lam: And so… Something that’s worked really well for me was having, like, the systems in place.

514 00:52:23.670 ⇒ 00:52:24.780 Clarence Stone: Yeah.

515 00:52:24.780 ⇒ 00:52:33.909 Gabriel Lam: And I think the platform in linear was what it was for me, to be like, okay, I can… I understand the tool well, and therefore I can extrapolate

516 00:52:34.630 ⇒ 00:52:39.559 Gabriel Lam: another dimension to see what I know very well from a different way.

517 00:52:39.560 ⇒ 00:52:40.430 Clarence Stone: Oh.

518 00:52:40.580 ⇒ 00:52:56.589 Clarence Stone: So that’s what I was supposed to talk to you about. Man, Gabe, like, we just went almost an hour, I didn’t even get to talk to you on that specific topic. So you have a very specific and interesting role here. Yeah. Because, like, while… if you want, within projects, to sit into each one of these, you know.

519 00:52:56.660 ⇒ 00:53:14.710 Clarence Stone: roles, that’s totally cool, but really, you know, you have an interesting place where you can start looking at these verticals and start, like, having meetings with these groups, right? Maybe once a month, you’ll sit down with client success owners and say, hey, how have things been going? Are you using this tool?

520 00:53:14.850 ⇒ 00:53:15.690 Gabriel Lam: Right.

521 00:53:15.690 ⇒ 00:53:22.050 Clarence Stone: Where are you spending most of your time in this function? Oh, I can make you this automation, would that help?

522 00:53:22.890 ⇒ 00:53:24.320 Clarence Stone: Right? Because…

523 00:53:25.170 ⇒ 00:53:47.429 Clarence Stone: like, then, if you did the initial outreach, you become, you know, somebody that’s there to also champion for them. It’s like, Gabe’s got our back. He’s gonna build this tech. He’s gonna help us dig out of this, right? And all we gotta do is pick up the phone, call him, and give him very clear product definitions, right? Listen to his guidance, and validate the things that he’s creating for us. And then he’ll help us get our days back.

524 00:53:48.230 ⇒ 00:54:04.390 Clarence Stone: Right? That’s awesome, right? So, I guess what I want to impart to you is, like, in this two-headed system, like, you know, build those relationships with each one of these, like, bins, and start to understand intimately where they’re stuck, right? And start building specific tools for that.

525 00:54:05.370 ⇒ 00:54:14.029 Clarence Stone: Because what I can tell you very clearly is all the tooling and products that we’re using right now, it’s built for the tactical.

526 00:54:14.180 ⇒ 00:54:27.570 Clarence Stone: It’s built for that daily wake-up of, okay, are we doing what we said we’re gonna do? What do we need to do? Right? And I want tooling, I hope to see tooling once I put people in these roles that are higher level.

527 00:54:27.800 ⇒ 00:54:28.260 Gabriel Lam: Yeah.

528 00:54:28.260 ⇒ 00:54:39.270 Clarence Stone: Right? Like, integrated planning that requires understanding of timeline, the delivery cycle on how long it takes to build certain things, resourcing and who’s available, right?

529 00:54:39.620 ⇒ 00:54:47.630 Clarence Stone: I foresee that daily, you know, stand-up feature going into the weekly or milestone increment tracker.

530 00:54:47.630 ⇒ 00:54:48.110 Gabriel Lam: Yep.

531 00:54:48.110 ⇒ 00:54:54.859 Clarence Stone: Right, and then into a… maybe a separate tool where I can have a conversation about everything we’ve done with a client.

532 00:54:55.560 ⇒ 00:55:02.289 Clarence Stone: And just, like, talk to an agent and say, like, hey, stepping into a meeting with this client, what do I need to know?

533 00:55:02.290 ⇒ 00:55:02.670 Gabriel Lam: Yeah.

534 00:55:02.670 ⇒ 00:55:06.939 Clarence Stone: Right? So, there’s so much for you to build. What a cool role, man.

535 00:55:07.920 ⇒ 00:55:13.260 Gabriel Lam: I’m… I’m excited. Yeah. Yeah. So…

536 00:55:13.260 ⇒ 00:55:14.760 Clarence Stone: So now you have new customers.

537 00:55:14.760 ⇒ 00:55:16.009 Gabriel Lam: Yeah, for sure.

538 00:55:17.750 ⇒ 00:55:19.569 Clarence Stone: Utah was your only customer before.

539 00:55:19.570 ⇒ 00:55:20.100 Gabriel Lam: Yes.

540 00:55:20.830 ⇒ 00:55:21.520 Gabriel Lam: Yes.

541 00:55:21.650 ⇒ 00:55:22.869 Gabriel Lam: I mean, he’s a…

542 00:55:22.870 ⇒ 00:55:23.830 Clarence Stone: Multifaceted.

543 00:55:23.830 ⇒ 00:55:31.390 Gabriel Lam: one, for sure, but I’m… I think this is what I also want to imagine, which is, like, we…

544 00:55:33.470 ⇒ 00:55:35.539 Gabriel Lam: We are almost our…

545 00:55:35.860 ⇒ 00:55:42.120 Gabriel Lam: the R&D for our clients, right? Like, I think the goal would be, like, there’s a lot of cool stuff that

546 00:55:42.620 ⇒ 00:55:49.940 Gabriel Lam: exists out there that… We could be our own…

547 00:55:50.050 ⇒ 00:56:00.180 Gabriel Lam: Customer, in some ways, and be like, hey, if we are able to build out these tools, or build, even if it’s, like, some sort of app, or some sort of platform, whatever it might be.

548 00:56:00.180 ⇒ 00:56:11.889 Gabriel Lam: We can very clearly and intimately see ourselves, how it’s benefited us, either how it’s increased our revenue, or how it’s saved us time or cost, and then we can go and be like, hey, we’ve done this ourselves, we’ve been using it for months.

549 00:56:11.980 ⇒ 00:56:18.510 Gabriel Lam: We know exactly what you need, or there’s things you don’t even know you need that we can then now offer.

550 00:56:18.510 ⇒ 00:56:22.330 Clarence Stone: Yeah, it’s like, hey, watch this work. You never thought of this before, have you?

551 00:56:22.330 ⇒ 00:56:23.469 Gabriel Lam: Yeah, yeah.

552 00:56:23.580 ⇒ 00:56:32.789 Gabriel Lam: And I think that’s great, and I think… the… My own, like, Desire, maybe, would be to…

553 00:56:33.560 ⇒ 00:56:39.670 Gabriel Lam: or what I am excited about that is that it’s also a little more cross-industry, and I think… I…

554 00:56:42.030 ⇒ 00:56:49.969 Gabriel Lam: came from a background where siloing happens very quickly, and so I was like, okay, this is an opportunity, and this is a place where

555 00:56:50.380 ⇒ 00:56:54.079 Gabriel Lam: If we’re… even though we might be working on, like, food or health.

556 00:56:54.240 ⇒ 00:57:00.069 Gabriel Lam: the tools that we work on don’t always have to be stuck to just one thing.

557 00:57:00.230 ⇒ 00:57:01.520 Clarence Stone: Yeah. Yep.

558 00:57:02.240 ⇒ 00:57:02.800 Clarence Stone: Yeah.

559 00:57:02.800 ⇒ 00:57:10.440 Gabriel Lam: I don’t think this is just for me either, right? I think it also is the same for other people, and I think I… yeah, I think, you know, the…

560 00:57:10.550 ⇒ 00:57:15.820 Gabriel Lam: people that we work with, we… we would also like to see them do the things, or, like, be in.

561 00:57:15.820 ⇒ 00:57:16.220 Clarence Stone: Yeah.

562 00:57:16.220 ⇒ 00:57:21.460 Gabriel Lam: projects that they want to be in. And… I think if… I…

563 00:57:21.810 ⇒ 00:57:24.750 Clarence Stone: If there is the messaging that exists to be like, hey.

564 00:57:24.750 ⇒ 00:57:27.699 Gabriel Lam: If there are types of tools, or if there’s

565 00:57:27.940 ⇒ 00:57:42.120 Gabriel Lam: industries, or clients, or whatever it might be that you think we’d be great at, or you yourself might want to go into, then how do we either A bring this business in, or B, use those tools, or C, like, have some sort of mix of that?

566 00:57:42.450 ⇒ 00:57:48.149 Clarence Stone: Yeah. So, so, how about this? Like, definitely run it by Utah, but, like.

567 00:57:48.540 ⇒ 00:57:50.919 Clarence Stone: A great place for that would be in the platform itself.

568 00:57:50.920 ⇒ 00:57:51.370 Gabriel Lam: Yup.

569 00:57:51.370 ⇒ 00:57:55.440 Clarence Stone: What if the last half is, like, Talk to the platform team.

570 00:57:55.600 ⇒ 00:58:08.139 Clarence Stone: Yeah. And it’s, like, just a quick 2-minute video of, like, here’s all things that we can help you with. If you didn’t see a tool here today, like, I want to know what you might use it for. Is it for new business? Is it to solve an existing problem?

571 00:58:08.550 ⇒ 00:58:12.170 Clarence Stone: Just give me a quick, you know, summary, and let’s set up a call.

572 00:58:12.430 ⇒ 00:58:13.030 Gabriel Lam: Yeah.

573 00:58:13.240 ⇒ 00:58:22.969 Clarence Stone: Right? Like, reach out to the platform team. Yeah. Right? That’s how you can start, you know, being that champion that people know that they can reach out to for things like this.

574 00:58:23.310 ⇒ 00:58:24.090 Gabriel Lam: Yeah.

575 00:58:24.570 ⇒ 00:58:25.280 Gabriel Lam: Yeah.

576 00:58:25.580 ⇒ 00:58:31.360 Gabriel Lam: Exactly. And I think something… on that end, I can end with that. I think my…

577 00:58:31.970 ⇒ 00:58:35.909 Gabriel Lam: hope for that would be to then go to Usman Robert and be like, hey.

578 00:58:37.110 ⇒ 00:58:44.330 Gabriel Lam: our main source of revenue comes from clients. That always is going to be the priority, and it’s part of the business, and we understand that, but

579 00:58:44.890 ⇒ 00:58:52.190 Gabriel Lam: If then we can… Find out that, hey, there’s a lot of value that comes from setting aside

580 00:58:52.790 ⇒ 00:58:53.800 Gabriel Lam: maybe, like.

581 00:58:54.600 ⇒ 00:59:02.879 Gabriel Lam: You know, 5 hours a week for some certain people, to then work on really building these things out and really investing the resources or time to do it.

582 00:59:03.660 ⇒ 00:59:06.150 Gabriel Lam: I think that becomes another…

583 00:59:07.430 ⇒ 00:59:14.100 Gabriel Lam: Very strong value proposition for how this team can continue to grow, or maybe expand or scale to do other things.

584 00:59:14.450 ⇒ 00:59:29.579 Clarence Stone: Yeah, so I think that’s great. I want it to be even more comprehensive, where you have a touchpoint with, like, the planner, and say, hey, this is a little slow for this point in time for this client, and that’s okay, because we’re, you know, we’re doing some analysis, right?

585 00:59:29.580 ⇒ 00:59:30.140 Gabriel Lam: Yeah.

586 00:59:30.140 ⇒ 00:59:33.589 Clarence Stone: So that means that X, Y, and Z people have openings.

587 00:59:33.590 ⇒ 00:59:34.080 Gabriel Lam: Yup.

588 00:59:34.080 ⇒ 00:59:47.719 Clarence Stone: Right, so here’s a list of people that have openings. I just want 2 people for 5 hours, and here’s the table. And you can make that request so easy for you, Tom, right? Because he’ll say, oh, wait a second, you can have this person, but not that person, because I was thinking about using them for that.

589 00:59:47.720 ⇒ 00:59:48.740 Gabriel Lam: Yeah, exactly.

590 00:59:48.740 ⇒ 00:59:53.589 Clarence Stone: Third person, right? So it just makes, like, a 30-minute call, a 5-minute chat.

591 00:59:53.590 ⇒ 01:00:03.589 Gabriel Lam: Exactly. And he’s just like, hey, there’s all these work streams, and he’s like, oh, actually, the person I thought we needed for this client, I think would be a great fit, I can use another person there as well. So…

592 01:00:03.880 ⇒ 01:00:04.810 Gabriel Lam: Okay.

593 01:00:04.980 ⇒ 01:00:09.730 Gabriel Lam: Well, our R is up, but I feel like I could keep yapping, but I will let you go.

594 01:00:09.730 ⇒ 01:00:10.500 Clarence Stone: Yeah, absolutely.

595 01:00:10.500 ⇒ 01:00:11.589 Gabriel Lam: get home, so…

596 01:00:11.590 ⇒ 01:00:13.330 Clarence Stone: That was a quick hour.

597 01:00:13.330 ⇒ 01:00:14.270 Gabriel Lam: Appreciate it, Ahsan.

598 01:00:14.270 ⇒ 01:00:23.630 Clarence Stone: Yeah, anytime. I’m always an open book, so if you think of anything, or you’ve got some ideas for better roles here, let me know.

599 01:00:23.980 ⇒ 01:00:24.590 Gabriel Lam: I will.

600 01:00:24.590 ⇒ 01:00:30.379 Clarence Stone: This is not set in stone. Like, I definitely don’t like Brainforge Buddy, it’s weird.

601 01:00:30.380 ⇒ 01:00:33.440 Gabriel Lam: Well, I’ll think of something, and I’ll let you know as well.

602 01:00:33.440 ⇒ 01:00:34.860 Clarence Stone: Yeah, awesome. Thanks, Gabe. Awesome.

603 01:00:34.860 ⇒ 01:00:36.650 Gabriel Lam: Appreciate it. Have a good rest of your day.

604 01:00:36.650 ⇒ 01:00:37.430 Clarence Stone: You too.

605 01:00:37.430 ⇒ 01:00:38.380 Gabriel Lam: Bye. How do you listen.