Meeting Title: NCAJ Collaboration Opportunities Discussion Date: 2025-11-03 Meeting participants: Robert Tseng, David Udell, NCAJ
WEBVTT
1 00:00:34.870 ⇒ 00:00:37.909 David Udell, NCAJ: Hey Robert, can’t see you, but I sense you’re there.
2 00:00:39.240 ⇒ 00:00:40.580 Robert Tseng: Hi, David.
3 00:00:41.180 ⇒ 00:00:45.080 Robert Tseng: I’m turning on my camera, things are a little slow.
4 00:00:48.420 ⇒ 00:00:49.619 Robert Tseng: Good morning.
5 00:00:55.590 ⇒ 00:00:56.799 Robert Tseng: There we go.
6 00:00:58.600 ⇒ 00:00:59.850 David Udell, NCAJ: Nice to meet you.
7 00:01:00.580 ⇒ 00:01:08.050 Robert Tseng: Yeah, good to finally meet you. Sorry we got rescheduled a couple times. Are you on the road this week, or are you… are you at home?
8 00:01:08.050 ⇒ 00:01:09.810 David Udell, NCAJ: I’m in my daughter’s bedroom.
9 00:01:10.370 ⇒ 00:01:10.720 Robert Tseng: Okay.
10 00:01:10.720 ⇒ 00:01:13.900 David Udell, NCAJ: and, remote from Fordham.
11 00:01:14.650 ⇒ 00:01:20.930 Robert Tseng: Great. Yeah, I’m in DC until tomorrow, and then we’ll be back at… back in New York.
12 00:01:21.690 ⇒ 00:01:23.420 David Udell, NCAJ: I sense you have a full life.
13 00:01:26.980 ⇒ 00:01:39.539 Robert Tseng: Yeah, I guess there’s a lot going on these days, but yeah, it’s been… it’s been really enjoyable. I don’t know if I mentioned over email, but it’s my first semester at Fordham as an evening student.
14 00:01:39.630 ⇒ 00:01:49.259 Robert Tseng: So, I mean, I still run a business during the day, and kind of have to jump around here and there, so, yeah, I guess time is…
15 00:01:50.400 ⇒ 00:01:55.729 Robert Tseng: Time always feels like I could… it would be nice to have more of, but, you know, we make… we make do with what we have.
16 00:01:55.730 ⇒ 00:01:58.009 David Udell, NCAJ: Yes, we do. Time is the coin of the realm.
17 00:01:58.210 ⇒ 00:01:59.900 David Udell, NCAJ: That’s how the town goes.
18 00:02:00.440 ⇒ 00:02:09.060 David Udell, NCAJ: Well, thank you for voicing an interest. You know, it’s cool to look at your resume, I don’t see resumes like that very often, where you have a big life, and…
19 00:02:09.330 ⇒ 00:02:15.919 David Udell, NCAJ: programming, it looks like. I mean, I can barely articulate what exactly it is that is your slice of the field.
20 00:02:16.210 ⇒ 00:02:23.750 David Udell, NCAJ: But I can tell it’s consuming and interesting, and I can only imagine what it’s like to be a law student on top of it.
21 00:02:24.050 ⇒ 00:02:28.160 David Udell, NCAJ: Hope it’s going well. Do you like law school? Do you like legal education?
22 00:02:28.780 ⇒ 00:02:41.719 Robert Tseng: I love it, yeah. I think, yeah, it’s been really great so far. I’m… I’m just taking… the program is really 3 classes a semester instead of, I don’t know, the typical 4 or 5 that full-timers take.
23 00:02:41.720 ⇒ 00:02:56.620 Robert Tseng: So it doesn’t really… it doesn’t feel like halftime, definitely feels like it’s a lot still, but the content is really interesting. My colleagues are… I think the demographic of my classes is really great as well.
24 00:02:57.040 ⇒ 00:03:09.639 Robert Tseng: Because most of the… my other colleagues are, they’re either working full-time or, you know, they’ve been in the field for… in their respective fields for many years as well, so it just adds a lot of,
25 00:03:09.650 ⇒ 00:03:19.840 Robert Tseng: yeah, just rich discussion in the classes, so, definitely something I enjoy intellectually, and, yeah, continues to inspire me to
26 00:03:19.900 ⇒ 00:03:22.190 Robert Tseng: Be at the intersection of
27 00:03:22.750 ⇒ 00:03:36.989 Robert Tseng: law, tech, and I think my reason for law school is more on the social justice side, and wanting to, you know, explore public interest, which is kind of why I reached out to you after that conference recently.
28 00:03:36.990 ⇒ 00:03:44.739 Robert Tseng: And yeah, I guess I’m… I feel like I can’t articulate, like, what… what my practice will look like, or even how I’ll…
29 00:03:44.770 ⇒ 00:03:51.819 Robert Tseng: kind of in full legal education into my career at this point, but, I think I’m really interested in
30 00:03:51.820 ⇒ 00:04:11.759 Robert Tseng: just the network that I get to build through Fordham, and learning about what all these different entities are doing, you know, especially, with the… with that, I guess, I don’t know if you use the abbreviation NCHA, but I guess, in my mind, that’s kind of how I’ve been categorizing, you and your work.
31 00:04:12.170 ⇒ 00:04:19.089 David Udell, NCAJ: Yeah, well, it’s like, it’s a pretty interesting moment for tech and the legal system.
32 00:04:19.279 ⇒ 00:04:25.210 David Udell, NCAJ: I mean, really, for tech and everything, but AI and access to justice are…
33 00:04:26.400 ⇒ 00:04:31.850 David Udell, NCAJ: you know, concepts that are, kind of integrating with one another, and… Yeah.
34 00:04:32.420 ⇒ 00:04:41.719 David Udell, NCAJ: the… there are a lot of AI boosters, and if you want to know more about that, I’m happy to, you know, share information, and then…
35 00:04:42.020 ⇒ 00:04:47.600 David Udell, NCAJ: There’s some worry, a lot of worries about the downsides of,
36 00:04:48.060 ⇒ 00:04:52.510 David Udell, NCAJ: There have been a lot of problems with algorithmic decision-making in the agency.
37 00:04:53.050 ⇒ 00:05:01.769 David Udell, NCAJ: text, and… You know, the engagement of tech solutions tends to accelerate decision making, and so…
38 00:05:02.000 ⇒ 00:05:07.529 David Udell, NCAJ: Where there are biases and inaccurate, you know, incorrect decision-making, then you…
39 00:05:07.680 ⇒ 00:05:16.259 David Udell, NCAJ: Suddenly are affecting a very large number of people very quickly, and it’s sometimes hard to figure out what went wrong, and then to undo it.
40 00:05:16.490 ⇒ 00:05:20.169 David Udell, NCAJ: And I think on the AI side, you know, the…
41 00:05:20.290 ⇒ 00:05:24.969 David Udell, NCAJ: Stop-and-start aspects around hallucinations, and
42 00:05:26.240 ⇒ 00:05:31.040 David Udell, NCAJ: You know, incomplete decision… incomplete information, and…
43 00:05:31.410 ⇒ 00:05:38.389 David Udell, NCAJ: desires of the technology to please. You know, there’s sort of hazards in working with it.
44 00:05:38.510 ⇒ 00:05:41.549 David Udell, NCAJ: And so, you know, we…
45 00:05:42.080 ⇒ 00:05:48.090 David Udell, NCAJ: I’m not really a frontline, in any sense, a frontline tech provider, or…
46 00:05:48.350 ⇒ 00:05:57.079 David Udell, NCAJ: directly engaged with the leading edge, of tech in the courts. There are friends of mine who are designing software to help people.
47 00:05:57.520 ⇒ 00:06:02.010 David Udell, NCAJ: Get their security deposits back from landlords and things like that.
48 00:06:02.340 ⇒ 00:06:07.130 David Udell, NCAJ: I am gonna go to this tech event at Stanford two weeks from now, which…
49 00:06:07.130 ⇒ 00:06:07.510 Robert Tseng: Hmm.
50 00:06:07.510 ⇒ 00:06:09.459 David Udell, NCAJ: Holds itself out as a kind of…
51 00:06:09.840 ⇒ 00:06:15.570 David Udell, NCAJ: National gathering to figure out a kind of tech infrastructure for the…
52 00:06:15.670 ⇒ 00:06:19.079 David Udell, NCAJ: Access to justice movement across the country.
53 00:06:19.520 ⇒ 00:06:34.799 David Udell, NCAJ: That website, I’m happy to forward you the link. I don’t… it’s not… it’s an invitation only, it’s not something I would encourage you to attend, but it would give you a little perspective nationally on what folks at Stanford. The particular proponent over there is Margaret Hagen.
54 00:06:35.400 ⇒ 00:06:37.560 David Udell, NCAJ: H-H-G-E-N.
55 00:06:37.690 ⇒ 00:06:43.980 David Udell, NCAJ: And, you know, she’s highly searchable. There’s a ton of… she’s very prolific and has done a lot of stuff.
56 00:06:44.370 ⇒ 00:06:49.049 David Udell, NCAJ: And, when I look at the agenda for this event, it’s a little loose. It’s like, let’s…
57 00:06:49.570 ⇒ 00:06:53.109 David Udell, NCAJ: Kind of come together to forge a movement, but it…
58 00:06:53.390 ⇒ 00:06:56.470 David Udell, NCAJ: To me, there are dozens of issues which are…
59 00:06:56.990 ⇒ 00:07:06.699 David Udell, NCAJ: Worth investigating, you know, in panels, but this is more like a conversation among people involved in the field about where the field should go.
60 00:07:07.020 ⇒ 00:07:09.880 David Udell, NCAJ: Which is a sort of different framework, in a way.
61 00:07:10.210 ⇒ 00:07:13.809 David Udell, NCAJ: So, anyway, having said all that,
62 00:07:14.420 ⇒ 00:07:26.940 David Udell, NCAJ: you know, I’m not so much interviewing you at this point, you should tell me what your interests are, but I’ll just say another word about our engagement. So, we’ve been working with Paul Weiss, one of the… I don’t know how much you follow the.
63 00:07:27.780 ⇒ 00:07:34.789 David Udell, NCAJ: capitulations and all of that, but Paul Weiss is a firm that, with a very… Stellar history of…
64 00:07:34.940 ⇒ 00:07:40.550 David Udell, NCAJ: Public interest, civic-minded work, and highly capable litigators.
65 00:07:41.250 ⇒ 00:07:46.350 David Udell, NCAJ: a cut of deal with the Trump administration that nobody is that proud of, except maybe Trump.
66 00:07:47.280 ⇒ 00:07:48.530 Robert Tseng: And.
67 00:07:49.780 ⇒ 00:07:55.100 David Udell, NCAJ: In the middle of all this, I still really admire their… public interests.
68 00:07:55.760 ⇒ 00:07:59.490 David Udell, NCAJ: People, you know, and the talent. And we’re working with them on…
69 00:08:00.400 ⇒ 00:08:09.169 David Udell, NCAJ: Our 50-state research, in the context of fines and fees, which is, Public policy scourge, where…
70 00:08:09.280 ⇒ 00:08:14.200 David Udell, NCAJ: You know, instead of raising revenue through taxes, state legal systems look to the
71 00:08:14.610 ⇒ 00:08:18.620 David Udell, NCAJ: Criminal legal system, or the traffic court systems.
72 00:08:18.850 ⇒ 00:08:24.110 Robert Tseng: Yeah. To, extract a lot of money from people who are said to have violated the law.
73 00:08:24.750 ⇒ 00:08:27.119 David Udell, NCAJ: And, that court-imposed,
74 00:08:28.230 ⇒ 00:08:37.099 David Udell, NCAJ: is used in a lot of different ways, and there are a lot of bad practices around it. And we have a fines and fees index, which is part of our justice index, which I’m hoping you might.
75 00:08:37.429 ⇒ 00:08:38.089 David Udell, NCAJ: Expoad.
76 00:08:38.669 ⇒ 00:08:40.929 David Udell, NCAJ: Yeah. And,
77 00:08:42.039 ⇒ 00:08:54.189 David Udell, NCAJ: So we’re working with Paul Weiss, which has a team of, like, 7 associates and a fairly senior guy, and they are super talented, to test, run some new
78 00:08:54.679 ⇒ 00:09:01.729 David Udell, NCAJ: kind of updated policy benchmarks, and they’re running that… the reason I’m meandering over to the topic here, which is that
79 00:09:01.869 ⇒ 00:09:07.659 David Udell, NCAJ: They have a department of the future that is very involved with Harvey, the software.
80 00:09:08.370 ⇒ 00:09:15.359 David Udell, NCAJ: System, and so they’re doing their research in kind of dual approaches. They’re using the AI tech.
81 00:09:15.480 ⇒ 00:09:23.450 David Udell, NCAJ: Research tools, and they’re using the, traditional, law graduate, and then law firm associate.
82 00:09:24.050 ⇒ 00:09:29.360 David Udell, NCAJ: Strategies to do the research for us, to test our new sets of benchmarks.
83 00:09:29.680 ⇒ 00:09:34.680 David Udell, NCAJ: And, kind of the jury’s out on how well the AI will do. It seems like it does…
84 00:09:35.440 ⇒ 00:09:41.610 David Udell, NCAJ: simplify… it’s very efficient as a first run at research, and then the humans kind of…
85 00:09:42.070 ⇒ 00:09:47.289 David Udell, NCAJ: Quality control it, and… so all that’s a kind of interesting adventure for us.
86 00:09:48.430 ⇒ 00:09:53.509 David Udell, NCAJ: The other big thing, I’m gonna talk just a little bit longer, then I’m gonna hope that you’ll do some talking.
87 00:09:53.510 ⇒ 00:09:53.880 Robert Tseng: Yeah.
88 00:09:53.880 ⇒ 00:09:56.750 David Udell, NCAJ: The other thing going on with us is that,
89 00:09:57.270 ⇒ 00:10:03.500 David Udell, NCAJ: we have in our Justice Index, and I don’t know how deeply you tried to penetrate the website, but…
90 00:10:03.810 ⇒ 00:10:09.359 David Udell, NCAJ: We have an Excel spreadsheet that captures all the findings that are in the comprehensive index.
91 00:10:09.480 ⇒ 00:10:10.180 David Udell, NCAJ: I looked through.
92 00:10:10.180 ⇒ 00:10:10.980 Robert Tseng: that, yeah.
93 00:10:10.980 ⇒ 00:10:15.030 David Udell, NCAJ: Yeah, and so… We’ve never really mined that.
94 00:10:15.390 ⇒ 00:10:18.300 David Udell, NCAJ: for… Value, and it…
95 00:10:18.470 ⇒ 00:10:26.320 David Udell, NCAJ: with chat now, it’s so easy to do it, and I just feel like I can’t get around to it, I don’t have the time, I doubt that you’ll have the time, but…
96 00:10:26.770 ⇒ 00:10:29.330 David Udell, NCAJ: You know, for example, we have something like 8
97 00:10:29.660 ⇒ 00:10:33.400 David Udell, NCAJ: Benchmark policies, which are just about law firm pro bono.
98 00:10:34.780 ⇒ 00:10:48.749 David Udell, NCAJ: And I don’t know how much you’re even familiar with the idea that law firms do pro bono work. I mean, I’ve just been talking about work we’re doing with Paul Weiss, but there are laws, there are state laws and ethical guidelines that govern
99 00:10:49.040 ⇒ 00:10:52.149 David Udell, NCAJ: How attorneys should or shouldn’t be.
100 00:10:52.340 ⇒ 00:10:56.879 David Udell, NCAJ: Rewarded, let’s say, for doing pro bono.
101 00:10:57.300 ⇒ 00:10:59.210 David Udell, NCAJ: Or authorized to do pro bono?
102 00:10:59.420 ⇒ 00:11:04.999 David Udell, NCAJ: So if you’re admitted in the state of New York, but you want to do some pro bono work in Wisconsin.
103 00:11:05.270 ⇒ 00:11:11.409 David Udell, NCAJ: Wisconsin has to have a law that will say whether or not you’ll be allowed to do that without becoming a member of the bar.
104 00:11:11.790 ⇒ 00:11:13.059 Robert Tseng: Of Wisconsin. Yeah.
105 00:11:13.420 ⇒ 00:11:23.259 David Udell, NCAJ: And similarly, most states require Law firm lawyers, every lawyer, to maintain their license by doing continuing legal education.
106 00:11:23.560 ⇒ 00:11:29.120 David Udell, NCAJ: Meaning they have to keep educating themselves through the course of their careers, they have to demonstrate that they’ve
107 00:11:29.300 ⇒ 00:11:31.669 David Udell, NCAJ: Done a certain number of credits each year.
108 00:11:32.510 ⇒ 00:11:33.919 David Udell, NCAJ: of education.
109 00:11:34.320 ⇒ 00:11:40.680 David Udell, NCAJ: And some states will let you do pro bono work as a way of getting your CLE credits.
110 00:11:41.160 ⇒ 00:11:43.270 David Udell, NCAJ: So, it’s an incentive.
111 00:11:43.870 ⇒ 00:11:55.359 David Udell, NCAJ: one more incentive to do pro bono. Everybody is always trying to figure out how can we get lawyers to do more pro bono. One way is to give them credit for doing it, that allows them to keep their law license.
112 00:11:55.480 ⇒ 00:12:10.520 David Udell, NCAJ: And so, those kinds of policies, we have 8 or 9 or 10, I don’t know how many of them, but they’re buried in our spreadsheet, because it’s very hard to visualize data, and even if you try as best you can with really smart people who are very talented at it.
113 00:12:10.760 ⇒ 00:12:19.849 David Udell, NCAJ: there’s still a lot of gems that are hiding in the mountain that is that spreadsheet. And so we want to pull those out, make them more visible to people.
114 00:12:19.980 ⇒ 00:12:24.120 David Udell, NCAJ: that’s the kind of project on my list, and when I see a resume like yours, I think…
115 00:12:24.250 ⇒ 00:12:27.310 David Udell, NCAJ: Yeah, we need somebody who could learn about the law.
116 00:12:27.590 ⇒ 00:12:45.329 David Udell, NCAJ: while also solving the tech aspect of it, if that person happened to be a programmer. You know, so that crosses my mind when I see a resume like yours. And that may have nothing to do with you, really, but I’m just telling you very transparently that, like, that crosses my mind as a cool project, needs to be done, maybe it’s.
117 00:12:45.330 ⇒ 00:12:45.660 Robert Tseng: Yeah.
118 00:12:45.690 ⇒ 00:12:49.660 David Udell, NCAJ: I could find a lot of interesting things to pull out.
119 00:12:49.920 ⇒ 00:12:59.150 David Udell, NCAJ: But anyway, I’ll stop talking, as promised. I’m curious to hear anything you’d like to share with me about your interests in law, and
120 00:12:59.360 ⇒ 00:13:06.939 David Udell, NCAJ: And I have no expectation that just by making time available today, you would hook on with us, or even that if you did, it would be a good fit.
121 00:13:07.180 ⇒ 00:13:18.930 David Udell, NCAJ: not paying anybody now, you don’t seem to have a free second even to, you know, connect in a Zoom call, so, you know, and maybe we’re just talking in a friendly way for the future, and it’s nice to know you.
122 00:13:19.220 ⇒ 00:13:20.289 David Udell, NCAJ: But tell me what’.
123 00:13:20.290 ⇒ 00:13:21.250 Robert Tseng: Yeah, no, I…
124 00:13:21.390 ⇒ 00:13:39.089 Robert Tseng: I appreciate you making the time, to… to kind of walk me through, like, your… your voiceover of the work that you’re doing, at SEAJ. I did look through, kind of, like, the data set, and, yeah, I… I think it was great that you highlighted the fines and fees index. I think I was kind of
125 00:13:39.090 ⇒ 00:13:48.599 Robert Tseng: yeah, what… the Attorney Access Index was probably what I kind of looked through more… the most… the most clearly, because I thought that was interesting, kind of the findings of
126 00:13:48.620 ⇒ 00:13:55.720 Robert Tseng: Yeah, just, like, access to, legal aid, from, like, a… from, like, a…
127 00:13:56.810 ⇒ 00:14:15.619 Robert Tseng: attorney staffing perspective, I guess now you’re kind of informing me a lot of that is maybe pro bono-driven, and it’s not all, and there’s probably other, like, nuances to kind of, like, how you count, civil legal aid attorneys, and kind of the access there. So, but yeah, I would say between that and the self-representation index, like, I…
128 00:14:15.620 ⇒ 00:14:24.939 Robert Tseng: I just think that, yeah, it’s great that your firm is, like, or I guess your organization has built out these benchmarks that are able to kind of compare,
129 00:14:25.210 ⇒ 00:14:38.839 Robert Tseng: you know, define and compare what access… access to justice looks like across states. It’s a work that I’m very interested in, and my whole thesis of coming into law school as a technologist was that, like.
130 00:14:38.860 ⇒ 00:14:46.160 Robert Tseng: I wanted to find an opportunity to use my tech… leverage my tech background and kind of
131 00:14:46.370 ⇒ 00:15:00.929 Robert Tseng: to… to build either… to build some sort of solution, that’s going to… that kind of serve a specific niche in… in the, kind of access to… access to justice gap.
132 00:15:00.930 ⇒ 00:15:10.129 Robert Tseng: I would say, like, the recent conference at NYU really kind of showed me that I was maybe more paying attention to, you know, those that are, like.
133 00:15:10.130 ⇒ 00:15:17.470 Robert Tseng: way under the federal poverty line, and, I think I kind of opened my eyes that, hey, there’s actually this… this,
134 00:15:17.550 ⇒ 00:15:20.600 Robert Tseng: Kind of big crack in the space where
135 00:15:20.980 ⇒ 00:15:37.869 Robert Tseng: Folks may be above the federal poverty line, but they’re well below their means to be able to kind of pay off, like, kind of fees and fines, consumer debts, kind of, like, other, other kind of seemingly kind of oppressive,
136 00:15:39.100 ⇒ 00:15:56.899 Robert Tseng: kind of, barriers in the legal system that kind of keep them stuck in this, like, cycle… it kind of keep them stuck in their cycle, and that happened to be a much wider, gap in the market than I thought. So, I think from, like, a personal interest, and as I’m forming my own kind of, like, vision for
137 00:15:57.060 ⇒ 00:16:05.729 Robert Tseng: what my role in this legal field is, like, I think I’m heading in that direction, but I think it all starts from, like, research and kind of, like, having a good
138 00:16:05.730 ⇒ 00:16:20.249 Robert Tseng: a sense of, like, where the opportunities are, and so I thought that maybe by reaching out, having a conversation with you, I, you know, you’d be able to point me to kind of, like, the leading work that’s being done, so I’ll definitely look into the conference.
139 00:16:20.250 ⇒ 00:16:24.570 Robert Tseng: And then, yeah, I mean, if there’s any way that I can assist in just…
140 00:16:24.780 ⇒ 00:16:41.260 Robert Tseng: Helping… helping on the data… data side, like, anything data engineering and visualization, like, that’s up… that’s in my wheelhouse, that’s in my team’s wheelhouse, and we would be happy to do that work, you know, obviously for free, you know, if there’s an opportunity to contribute to your work in some way.
141 00:16:41.840 ⇒ 00:16:49.819 David Udell, NCAJ: Well, that’s lovely, and there’s nothing obvious about doing work for free, you know, that is a very generous statement to make, and I…
142 00:16:49.960 ⇒ 00:16:59.580 David Udell, NCAJ: I wouldn’t expect to really take you up on that, except in maybe the most modest of ways. I mean, I think those things cost money and time, and it’s your business, and so forth.
143 00:16:59.970 ⇒ 00:17:04.979 David Udell, NCAJ: But, I do like the way you talk about the field, and
144 00:17:05.680 ⇒ 00:17:09.319 David Udell, NCAJ: You know, you seem just very thoughtful,
145 00:17:10.400 ⇒ 00:17:18.090 David Udell, NCAJ: You know, I think I’d spend a minute or two on one more sort of discrete area that we’re involved in.
146 00:17:18.650 ⇒ 00:17:23.790 David Udell, NCAJ: Which is tech, in tech-adjacent,
147 00:17:24.190 ⇒ 00:17:35.609 David Udell, NCAJ: So, in the context of fines and fees, and also in the context of consumer debt collection, like when you don’t pay your medical bill, or somebody accuses you of not having paid a bill.
148 00:17:38.100 ⇒ 00:17:50.560 David Udell, NCAJ: The courts are supposed to, in one way or another, figure out, do you have the ability to pay the amount that’s being demanded of you? And we call those ability-to-pay determinations, or ability to pay assessments.
149 00:17:51.140 ⇒ 00:17:53.730 David Udell, NCAJ: Comes up in a lot of ways in the legal system.
150 00:17:54.060 ⇒ 00:18:01.050 David Udell, NCAJ: Partly fines and fees, partly consumer debt, like I mentioned, partly child support is another area.
151 00:18:01.720 ⇒ 00:18:07.970 David Udell, NCAJ: Court-ordered restitution, you know, when people are found guilty of crimes and asked to pay.
152 00:18:08.090 ⇒ 00:18:11.750 David Udell, NCAJ: Another person who’s a victim of the crime a certain amount of money.
153 00:18:12.770 ⇒ 00:18:27.490 David Udell, NCAJ: comes up in how much you can afford to pay your landlord for rent that you owe, and whether the city of New York will step in and make up some of your back rent if they think you can maintain your apartment going forward. So figuring out how much money people have is a big deal.
154 00:18:28.170 ⇒ 00:18:32.199 David Udell, NCAJ: It’s very hard to do. People work off the books, you know, that’s.
155 00:18:32.200 ⇒ 00:18:32.640 Robert Tseng: Yeah.
156 00:18:32.640 ⇒ 00:18:35.959 David Udell, NCAJ: An issue that’s hard, and sort of an intractable issue.
157 00:18:36.300 ⇒ 00:18:44.280 David Udell, NCAJ: But figuring out how much money it costs to live, costs of living, expenses, is more approachable through, you know, the federal government.
158 00:18:44.710 ⇒ 00:18:51.480 David Udell, NCAJ: Has a way of looking at that, using certain databases for purposes of tax recovery.
159 00:18:52.330 ⇒ 00:18:53.489 David Udell, NCAJ: And,
160 00:18:54.380 ⇒ 00:19:01.509 David Udell, NCAJ: And so anyway, a bunch of people have been creating tools to help courts figure this out, or to even just help people.
161 00:19:01.620 ⇒ 00:19:08.100 David Udell, NCAJ: Figure out, realistically, how much they can afford to pay, because oftentimes people overestimate how much money they have.
162 00:19:08.280 ⇒ 00:19:12.899 David Udell, NCAJ: Then they can’t afford to pay, and then they’re held in contempt of court, and it’s a kind of snowball.
163 00:19:13.170 ⇒ 00:19:14.010 David Udell, NCAJ: Problem.
164 00:19:14.690 ⇒ 00:19:20.359 Robert Tseng: So, we’ve been… we’ve been writing about ability to pay determinations for a couple years.
165 00:19:20.950 ⇒ 00:19:23.390 David Udell, NCAJ: And who’s doing what that’s creative.
166 00:19:23.950 ⇒ 00:19:27.129 David Udell, NCAJ: But one really creative guy…
167 00:19:27.240 ⇒ 00:19:34.480 David Udell, NCAJ: now in Virginia, he was in Iowa for years, has created a national ability to pay calculator.
168 00:19:35.070 ⇒ 00:19:38.539 Robert Tseng: And a couple of economists have reached out to us.
169 00:19:38.770 ⇒ 00:19:44.659 David Udell, NCAJ: It’s a… there’s a long backstory, which I’ll spare you, but I know him for 30 years, this particular guy.
170 00:19:45.270 ⇒ 00:19:57.480 David Udell, NCAJ: And we wrote up what he’s doing and told a foundation, which is very interested in doing rigorous, evaluation studies using randomized controlled trials. Are you familiar with that concept?
171 00:19:59.930 ⇒ 00:20:09.210 David Udell, NCAJ: we said you should really evaluate this guy’s product, this online website that uses HUD Housing and Urban Development data from the federal government.
172 00:20:09.530 ⇒ 00:20:17.090 David Udell, NCAJ: To figure out what people’s living expenses are, and to help them prepare affidavits to be considered by courts about how little money
173 00:20:17.270 ⇒ 00:20:21.410 David Udell, NCAJ: They actually have, after taking into account their expenses.
174 00:20:22.670 ⇒ 00:20:28.850 David Udell, NCAJ: And that foundation, Arnold Ventures, it’s called, came around and asked a couple economists. We also did a whole
175 00:20:29.220 ⇒ 00:20:40.620 David Udell, NCAJ: day’s event supported by this foundation, just to bring economists, sociologists, political scientists together with judges and lawyers. We did that here at Fordham, or at Fordham.
176 00:20:41.170 ⇒ 00:20:47.649 David Udell, NCAJ: It was a very successful event. But anyway, one thing coming out of that is the Foundation wants now to study this particular tool.
177 00:20:47.770 ⇒ 00:21:01.469 David Udell, NCAJ: And they’ve reached out to two economists, who in turn reached back out to us, sort of a circle, because we had the original input, the foundation came to them, they’ve now come to us. And we’re pulling together a planning grant to do a study of the ability to pay
178 00:21:01.670 ⇒ 00:21:02.440 David Udell, NCAJ: tool.
179 00:21:03.380 ⇒ 00:21:08.830 David Udell, NCAJ: I just think that’s a very concrete thing that would be interesting to you. I don’t know that there’s a role
180 00:21:09.180 ⇒ 00:21:10.070 David Udell, NCAJ: At this point.
181 00:21:10.070 ⇒ 00:21:10.430 Robert Tseng: Yeah.
182 00:21:10.430 ⇒ 00:21:13.020 David Udell, NCAJ: Way down the line, there’ll be a rule for how to…
183 00:21:13.350 ⇒ 00:21:21.059 David Udell, NCAJ: visualize whatever data emerges from the study that’s done. And our job is to figure out where to do the study and with whom.
184 00:21:21.210 ⇒ 00:21:27.539 David Udell, NCAJ: Who’s willing to do that study, and then figure out the accessibility of court data, which is a whole other
185 00:21:27.850 ⇒ 00:21:30.330 David Udell, NCAJ: issue for research. Right. So… Right.
186 00:21:30.630 ⇒ 00:21:33.620 David Udell, NCAJ: fundamentally a tech issue. How to generate
187 00:21:33.780 ⇒ 00:21:38.429 David Udell, NCAJ: More and more reliable court data is something a lot of people are working on.
188 00:21:38.660 ⇒ 00:21:41.820 David Udell, NCAJ: In a lot of different places, you know, and…
189 00:21:42.240 ⇒ 00:21:50.310 David Udell, NCAJ: The National Center for State Courts is one of those bodies. There are people at Georgetown University and Georgetown Law School that are also working on that.
190 00:21:50.860 ⇒ 00:21:59.240 David Udell, NCAJ: There’s a group that’s working on the criminal side more than the civil side called Measures for Justice that’s up in Rochester or Buffalo, I think, I’m not sure.
191 00:22:00.570 ⇒ 00:22:03.250 David Udell, NCAJ: But anyway, I think that’s kind of interesting, and then…
192 00:22:03.500 ⇒ 00:22:09.639 David Udell, NCAJ: There’s a… unrelated to that specific thing, there’s another project involving a different tool.
193 00:22:09.950 ⇒ 00:22:19.299 David Udell, NCAJ: That we’ve been asked to do, and that tool involves a decision tree that we’re designing to be built into that tool.
194 00:22:19.680 ⇒ 00:22:21.930 David Udell, NCAJ: Which is to help people figure out
195 00:22:22.470 ⇒ 00:22:32.259 David Udell, NCAJ: what to pay, and… not what to pay, but what the consequences are for failure to pay. So it’s more of a law school project than a tech project, our part of it.
196 00:22:33.120 ⇒ 00:22:36.500 David Udell, NCAJ: We have to… and there’s something really tricky about…
197 00:22:37.410 ⇒ 00:22:44.029 David Udell, NCAJ: It’s not the sexiest formulation, but I’ll just say multiple debts of varying type.
198 00:22:44.230 ⇒ 00:22:50.490 David Udell, NCAJ: Like, when people owe money, or are told that they owe money, to different entities, like the government, or…
199 00:22:50.770 ⇒ 00:22:53.859 David Udell, NCAJ: A debt collection firm, or…
200 00:22:54.180 ⇒ 00:23:01.830 David Udell, NCAJ: a landlord, or their wife, or child. You know, they have to figure out, like, what do I pay first, and what’s gonna happen to me if I don’t pay?
201 00:23:01.990 ⇒ 00:23:04.569 David Udell, NCAJ: And so, we’re very involved in that.
202 00:23:05.130 ⇒ 00:23:07.130 David Udell, NCAJ: Sorting that out, also.
203 00:23:07.540 ⇒ 00:23:09.310 David Udell, NCAJ: So,
204 00:23:10.710 ⇒ 00:23:18.640 David Udell, NCAJ: I’m not sure what to do next for you, or with you, and if there’s… and I… again, I don’t feel you have much time.
205 00:23:18.980 ⇒ 00:23:20.170 David Udell, NCAJ: But,
206 00:23:20.370 ⇒ 00:23:27.959 David Udell, NCAJ: If any of these topics appeal to you as something to look at more closely, I’d be interested to talk again about, like, what that…
207 00:23:28.480 ⇒ 00:23:36.529 David Udell, NCAJ: would look like. We don’t generally take on very many students as volunteers, and we’ve rarely paid them.
208 00:23:36.730 ⇒ 00:23:45.010 David Udell, NCAJ: But we do pay students sometimes as research assistants the same as if you’re working for… professor,
209 00:23:45.140 ⇒ 00:23:51.499 David Udell, NCAJ: We don’t have those funds from Fordham, we’re actually an independent 501c3 nonprofit based at the law school.
210 00:23:52.030 ⇒ 00:23:55.199 Robert Tseng: Okay, I was gonna ask what your relationship with the school was, yeah.
211 00:23:55.200 ⇒ 00:24:02.449 David Udell, NCAJ: It’s a kind of curious one. It’s based on the fact that I used to work at a place called the Brennan Center for Justice, and that, too, was a…
212 00:24:03.180 ⇒ 00:24:12.589 David Udell, NCAJ: An established nonprofit corporation working within the larger nonprofit corporation of the law school or the university.
213 00:24:12.750 ⇒ 00:24:15.730 David Udell, NCAJ: And here at Fordham, I think there’s only one official
214 00:24:16.090 ⇒ 00:24:18.960 David Udell, NCAJ: 501c3, which is the Fordham University.
215 00:24:19.790 ⇒ 00:24:22.749 David Udell, NCAJ: Sort of an appendage of the university.
216 00:24:22.960 ⇒ 00:24:30.090 David Udell, NCAJ: And we are kind of a free rider. The law school… or a jewel in the crown, is how I like to think about it, you know, that…
217 00:24:30.910 ⇒ 00:24:37.010 David Udell, NCAJ: they mostly like having us around. Space has not really been an issue in recent years, I think, post-COVID.
218 00:24:37.280 ⇒ 00:24:41.329 David Udell, NCAJ: They have enough… have had enough space. Every now and then it becomes an issue.
219 00:24:41.430 ⇒ 00:24:52.779 David Udell, NCAJ: And so, they give us free rent, and we do interesting things, and that’s another relationship, including that global center, I mean, that global forum that you attended.
220 00:24:52.780 ⇒ 00:24:53.640 Robert Tseng: Came. Yeah.
221 00:24:53.970 ⇒ 00:25:04.920 David Udell, NCAJ: the school through me, and then we pulled in NYU, and Fordham, and FERIC, and the Center on Race, and just, you know, a lot of centers were involved. Actually, I’m not sure they were involved, I think they were.
222 00:25:05.090 ⇒ 00:25:06.049 David Udell, NCAJ: The last one.
223 00:25:07.660 ⇒ 00:25:10.640 David Udell, NCAJ: So I think what I would do… is it Robert?
224 00:25:11.350 ⇒ 00:25:12.450 Robert Tseng: Robert, yep.
225 00:25:12.450 ⇒ 00:25:17.990 David Udell, NCAJ: You know, I’d send you… A link or two or three of things, and
226 00:25:18.590 ⇒ 00:25:26.409 David Udell, NCAJ: You should just let me… I mean, I don’t know if you have a reaction today, like, whether you wanted to find time to carve out to work on projects this year.
227 00:25:26.520 ⇒ 00:25:30.519 David Udell, NCAJ: Whether you really just want to acquire knowledge and think ahead.
228 00:25:30.680 ⇒ 00:25:39.550 David Udell, NCAJ: I don’t really have a specific task formed in my mind that I would give to you, although I’m sure I can come up with one, you know?
229 00:25:40.090 ⇒ 00:25:42.170 David Udell, NCAJ: If you had the time, but what are you thinking?
230 00:25:42.170 ⇒ 00:25:55.589 Robert Tseng: Yeah. Yeah, no, I think it was great that you kind of highlighted a few projects that, you know, you’re actively working on and thinking, hey, there’s sort of maybe something that could, you know, keep on keep on my radar for how I can think about being and planning to be involved.
231 00:25:55.590 ⇒ 00:26:13.210 Robert Tseng: Yeah, I don’t think anything would happen, like, this calendar year. I think, you know, this is, like, kind of me being able to think about my second semester. The schedule gets more flexible in law school, is what I hear, so I will be able to kind of be able to plan ahead a bit, so…
232 00:26:13.210 ⇒ 00:26:15.760 Robert Tseng: You know, to me, it’s like, if we’re able to…
233 00:26:15.760 ⇒ 00:26:32.179 Robert Tseng: if the timing makes sense, there’s maybe some… some way to get involved, as early as next semester. If it needs to be further out, maybe for, like, a summer or something, like, I’m… I’m okay with that. I… I just, you know, I… I appreciate just being pointed in some direction, and I can kind of… kind of keep
234 00:26:32.430 ⇒ 00:26:38.269 Robert Tseng: having conversations with people and trying to… trying to carve out what that… what that role looks like.
235 00:26:38.270 ⇒ 00:26:39.969 David Udell, NCAJ: Sounds good. Yeah.
236 00:26:40.210 ⇒ 00:26:45.239 David Udell, NCAJ: You know, it’s hard to, have a job, and…
237 00:26:45.840 ⇒ 00:26:51.860 David Udell, NCAJ: you know, do law school internships, and to have evening classes on top of a job, I just…
238 00:26:52.630 ⇒ 00:26:58.850 David Udell, NCAJ: What you normally do overlaps with what the new task would be.
239 00:26:59.200 ⇒ 00:27:06.030 David Udell, NCAJ: It’s kind of hard to imagine that really working well, but maybe there is a scenario where it does overlap like that.
240 00:27:06.290 ⇒ 00:27:13.370 David Udell, NCAJ: But anyway, I’ll send you an email. I’m not gonna go on at too great length in the email, just enough for you to…
241 00:27:14.220 ⇒ 00:27:20.189 David Udell, NCAJ: Track and look at websites and things, and then think about whether you want to have a next conversation.
242 00:27:20.400 ⇒ 00:27:21.509 David Udell, NCAJ: And… Sure.
243 00:27:22.300 ⇒ 00:27:27.029 David Udell, NCAJ: If so, let me know. You know, to my mind, you’re pretty interesting, because you…
244 00:27:27.300 ⇒ 00:27:30.699 David Udell, NCAJ: You seem like a kind of quick study, and
245 00:27:31.240 ⇒ 00:27:37.529 David Udell, NCAJ: these two fields are really growth industries right now, you know, well outside of NCAJ.
246 00:27:37.730 ⇒ 00:27:42.820 David Udell, NCAJ: But we have purchase on little corners of them, and
247 00:27:43.240 ⇒ 00:27:53.290 David Udell, NCAJ: I’m trying to figure out. You know, here’s another thing I’m doing is setting up a speaker series at the New York County Lawyers Association. Not a speaker series, a series of evening panels.
248 00:27:53.460 ⇒ 00:27:56.669 David Udell, NCAJ: And one of them is mapped out around,
249 00:27:57.020 ⇒ 00:28:03.479 David Udell, NCAJ: AI and the legal system. And, there’s another guy, I don’t know if you’ve encountered his name yet.
250 00:28:03.940 ⇒ 00:28:07.470 David Udell, NCAJ: Satish Nuri. N-O-O-R-I.
251 00:28:08.030 ⇒ 00:28:10.599 Robert Tseng: Yes, I’m connected with him.
252 00:28:10.810 ⇒ 00:28:19.550 Robert Tseng: Yeah, he’s actually going to a conference this weekend in Austin. My business partner is out there, and he’s… he’s gonna meet with him. So, yeah.
253 00:28:19.810 ⇒ 00:28:23.370 Robert Tseng: Funny that you throw that name out. I was literally just talking to him last week.
254 00:28:23.370 ⇒ 00:28:25.770 David Udell, NCAJ: So, Satish is a lot of fun.
255 00:28:27.020 ⇒ 00:28:30.109 David Udell, NCAJ: I would put him in the category of boosters.
256 00:28:30.110 ⇒ 00:28:30.770 Robert Tseng: Hmm.
257 00:28:30.970 ⇒ 00:28:37.960 David Udell, NCAJ: You know, I don’t know that he’s that worried about the ways things go awry. Not quite as worried as I am, anyway.
258 00:28:38.350 ⇒ 00:28:40.980 David Udell, NCAJ: I’ll be out at that Stanford conference also.
259 00:28:41.620 ⇒ 00:28:42.000 Robert Tseng: Okay.
260 00:28:42.000 ⇒ 00:28:47.289 David Udell, NCAJ: He has a Substack, a free version, you might want to subscribe if you don’t already, it’ll keep you…
261 00:28:47.290 ⇒ 00:28:47.840 Robert Tseng: Okay.
262 00:28:48.000 ⇒ 00:28:58.810 David Udell, NCAJ: on top of what he’s thinking about, and he kind of wants to position himself to be a hub of information about the field, the intersection of the fields, and so I think he’s a good,
263 00:28:59.320 ⇒ 00:29:00.630 David Udell, NCAJ: resource for you.
264 00:29:00.770 ⇒ 00:29:01.790 David Udell, NCAJ: And.
265 00:29:01.790 ⇒ 00:29:06.180 Robert Tseng: Okay, yeah, I appreciate that. I’ll mention to him that we chatted, and…
266 00:29:06.180 ⇒ 00:29:06.580 David Udell, NCAJ: Yeah.
267 00:29:06.580 ⇒ 00:29:12.539 Robert Tseng: Yeah, I mean, I know he’s in New York, too, I just haven’t gotten around to meeting him. His office…
268 00:29:12.540 ⇒ 00:29:13.439 David Udell, NCAJ: Yeah, go ahead.
269 00:29:13.440 ⇒ 00:29:22.969 Robert Tseng: Oh, I was gonna say his office is supposed to be really close to campus, but apparently they’re all remote now, so I just haven’t really found the opportunity to meet him.
270 00:29:23.320 ⇒ 00:29:26.359 David Udell, NCAJ: I think he might be in a few places. I’m not sure. Okay.
271 00:29:27.200 ⇒ 00:29:33.119 David Udell, NCAJ: And he and I together, put together some outlines, and he… his…
272 00:29:33.480 ⇒ 00:29:38.910 David Udell, NCAJ: I covered some other ground that isn’t just AI. He designed a full day
273 00:29:39.170 ⇒ 00:29:44.319 David Udell, NCAJ: based on, I think, trainings that he’s already doing for people in the law firm community about…
274 00:29:44.940 ⇒ 00:29:51.279 David Udell, NCAJ: Kind of newbies, and welcoming them, and… Showing them… Things,
275 00:29:51.480 ⇒ 00:29:58.649 David Udell, NCAJ: So I think, yeah, he’s a good resource for you, and there are plenty of other people out there in the field who are…
276 00:29:58.940 ⇒ 00:30:06.600 David Udell, NCAJ: At various levels of sophistication. But anyway, I won’t take more time now. I’ll send you a note and, think about…
277 00:30:06.600 ⇒ 00:30:06.930 Robert Tseng: Okay.
278 00:30:06.930 ⇒ 00:30:10.300 David Udell, NCAJ: What you want to do and what you have time to do, and then maybe we’ll be in touch.
279 00:30:10.840 ⇒ 00:30:14.660 Robert Tseng: Yeah, that sounds good. Thank you so much for your time, David, and talk to you soon.
280 00:30:14.660 ⇒ 00:30:17.829 David Udell, NCAJ: Really appreciate your time, and good luck with all the things you’re doing.
281 00:30:18.110 ⇒ 00:30:20.570 Robert Tseng: Okay. Bye-bye. Have a good one.