Meeting Title: Zoom Meeting Date: 2025-10-01 Meeting participants: Samuel Roberts, Uttam Kumaran
WEBVTT
1 00:00:38.090 ⇒ 00:00:39.129 Uttam Kumaran: I hate it.
2 00:00:41.080 ⇒ 00:00:42.000 Samuel Roberts: Ayy.
3 00:00:43.500 ⇒ 00:00:44.849 Uttam Kumaran: Hey, how’s it going?
4 00:00:44.850 ⇒ 00:00:49.999 Samuel Roberts: Going alright. I’ve been a little under the weather with some sinus stuff.
5 00:00:50.620 ⇒ 00:00:54.830 Samuel Roberts: So I’m… it’s getting late in the day today, but I’m doing alright.
6 00:00:55.280 ⇒ 00:00:59.390 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I appreciate it, I was late. I was just like, I wanted to run this by Sam, so I…
7 00:00:59.390 ⇒ 00:01:08.919 Samuel Roberts: No, no, totally, it’s not… it’s not that this is late, this is, like, the day of work drags me a little bit longer when I’m, like, on Sudafed and a little under the weather in general, so…
8 00:01:08.920 ⇒ 00:01:10.200 Uttam Kumaran: I know what you’re saying.
9 00:01:11.180 ⇒ 00:01:12.550 Uttam Kumaran: How’s the week been.
10 00:01:12.980 ⇒ 00:01:15.930 Samuel Roberts: We’ve been pretty good.
11 00:01:16.870 ⇒ 00:01:20.430 Samuel Roberts: Yeah, trying to think, like, what have been the big highlights?
12 00:01:20.750 ⇒ 00:01:29.159 Samuel Roberts: I don’t know. Casey’s been out, so is it and Mustafa.
13 00:01:29.160 ⇒ 00:01:29.890 Uttam Kumaran: Okay.
14 00:01:29.890 ⇒ 00:01:31.000 Samuel Roberts: Which has been…
15 00:01:31.230 ⇒ 00:01:39.690 Samuel Roberts: easier to even manage, I guess, because it’s not like… you know, I’ve been still running the morning, stand-ups, where it’s just like, let’s just talk tech stuff.
16 00:01:39.870 ⇒ 00:01:43.960 Samuel Roberts: we’ll worry about the stand-ups with the clients and stuff, and then Rico kind of runs the,
17 00:01:44.230 ⇒ 00:01:47.980 Samuel Roberts: like, internal… Pm stuff after that.
18 00:01:49.760 ⇒ 00:01:58.039 Samuel Roberts: So that’s been helpful, and, you know, I feel like it’s a good time to just, like, talk that through, if there’s something there, and then if we need to. Because, like, in the stand-ups, I don’t want to get too deep in the weeds.
19 00:01:58.600 ⇒ 00:01:59.150 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
20 00:01:59.150 ⇒ 00:02:02.419 Samuel Roberts: And so I’ve usually been trying to grab time after, but I’m using the morning time to just, like.
21 00:02:02.700 ⇒ 00:02:12.820 Samuel Roberts: get a check on the previous day and today, and that day, and like, if there’s anything I can help unblock right then and talk through, we’ll do it, or we’ll grab time.
22 00:02:12.820 ⇒ 00:02:13.460 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
23 00:02:13.460 ⇒ 00:02:15.460 Samuel Roberts: Which has been… it’s been good, I think.
24 00:02:16.000 ⇒ 00:02:20.690 Samuel Roberts: Now, especially now that the stand-ups are a little more structured and, like,
25 00:02:20.940 ⇒ 00:02:25.030 Samuel Roberts: they’re consistent, and so I’m not worried about something slipping through that I…
26 00:02:25.570 ⇒ 00:02:30.370 Samuel Roberts: Because I’m not, like, super… I interlude and ABC, I feel like I get…
27 00:02:31.000 ⇒ 00:02:32.500 Samuel Roberts: Most of the ins and outs of.
28 00:02:33.890 ⇒ 00:02:43.900 Samuel Roberts: you know, default and insomnia I’m a little less up to speed on. Like, I can help them when they have a kind of question, technically, but that’s why, like, earlier, when he had the,
29 00:02:44.410 ⇒ 00:02:49.719 Samuel Roberts: The… the score thing for the vendors.
30 00:02:50.300 ⇒ 00:02:54.829 Samuel Roberts: I kind of gave it a look over, and was like, this looks good, generally, but I figured you knew.
31 00:02:54.830 ⇒ 00:02:55.260 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
32 00:02:55.260 ⇒ 00:02:57.939 Samuel Roberts: But the client better still.
33 00:02:58.300 ⇒ 00:03:02.499 Samuel Roberts: But I’ve still been trying to even go to those stand-ups just to get a little more in the loop, but…
34 00:03:03.730 ⇒ 00:03:11.710 Samuel Roberts: Yeah, it’s been solid. I mean, I’ve been a little sick all week, which has been a little bit of a drag. And I got a family wedding on Friday, actually, which I…
35 00:03:11.840 ⇒ 00:03:17.879 Samuel Roberts: totally blanked on. I gotta… I gotta be, like, putting my personal calendar and my work calendar together sometimes, because, like, I’m driving out.
36 00:03:17.880 ⇒ 00:03:24.870 Uttam Kumaran: Because, like, if you sync it, it, like, helps… you could do one-way sync, basically, like, from work to personal.
37 00:03:24.870 ⇒ 00:03:25.700 Samuel Roberts: That’s… yeah, that’s…
38 00:03:25.700 ⇒ 00:03:29.289 Uttam Kumaran: I delegate… you can also delegate access so that… or delegate.
39 00:03:29.750 ⇒ 00:03:32.090 Samuel Roberts: Oh, that I should probably do, yeah.
40 00:03:32.090 ⇒ 00:03:33.950 Uttam Kumaran: Say, like, share your calendar, create
41 00:03:34.450 ⇒ 00:03:42.219 Uttam Kumaran: create event, and so from your personal, you could just see everything in. When you can create, you can pick which calendar to create it on.
42 00:03:42.220 ⇒ 00:04:00.249 Samuel Roberts: That’s… yeah, I had set up the sync, but, like, I’ve been kind of set… like, I have, like, the multiple monitors going, and, like, multiple, virtual desktops and stuff that I’m kind of bouncing back and forth between, and so half the time I’m looking at just, like, the work calendar, because it’s nice to be able to, like, search people and see when people are in meetings and stuff, and, like…
43 00:04:00.840 ⇒ 00:04:07.969 Samuel Roberts: scheduling that way, but I just totally, totally, like, brain farted on this wedding this weekend, when I was like, oh yeah.
44 00:04:07.970 ⇒ 00:04:09.500 Uttam Kumaran: Like, what name is it?
45 00:04:09.500 ⇒ 00:04:12.110 Samuel Roberts: My, like, my wife’s cousin, basically, so I had to
46 00:04:13.160 ⇒ 00:04:29.879 Samuel Roberts: where her family is. So fortunately, yeah, not like a close friend or, you know, immediate that I’m like, oh my god, I dropped the ball, but definitely like, oh, right, right, we’re driving out to Indiana tomorrow. And I’m just like, oh, gosh, yeah. Which isn’t too far, but, you know.
47 00:04:30.980 ⇒ 00:04:37.409 Samuel Roberts: It’ll be good. It’ll be a fun time. I just gotta get to it, and hopefully not feel quite as crappy as I have been so far, so…
48 00:04:38.520 ⇒ 00:04:39.470 Uttam Kumaran: Nice.
49 00:04:39.470 ⇒ 00:04:40.370 Samuel Roberts: Yeah, how.
50 00:04:40.370 ⇒ 00:04:49.729 Uttam Kumaran: I mean… Oh, go ahead. Yeah, I think… yeah, no, things are good. I think, like, I’ve sort of, like, officially, I think with Awash coming on to Urban Sems, sort of handing off
51 00:04:50.210 ⇒ 00:04:56.859 Uttam Kumaran: kind of the last account that I’m actually, like, doing work on, I am still doing, like, sort of, like.
52 00:04:57.240 ⇒ 00:05:01.359 Uttam Kumaran: it’s kind of what I want to talk about today, sort of, like, strategist work, I would say, on…
53 00:05:01.360 ⇒ 00:05:02.050 Samuel Roberts: Okay.
54 00:05:02.250 ⇒ 00:05:09.530 Uttam Kumaran: Default, on, you know, a couple clients where it’s more of, like, I’m still coming to the…
55 00:05:09.780 ⇒ 00:05:14.390 Uttam Kumaran: clients and… Puddies again, like, sort of just, like.
56 00:05:14.780 ⇒ 00:05:20.369 Uttam Kumaran: Thinking about what the vision is for the next project, sort of like rapid prototyping, but then handing it off to, like.
57 00:05:20.490 ⇒ 00:05:27.910 Uttam Kumaran: engineers or PMs to sort of iterate on, but yeah, it’s good. I think I’m now sort of gonna…
58 00:05:28.060 ⇒ 00:05:36.029 Uttam Kumaran: shift a lot of my time to running sort of broad delivery, so I’ll be kind of steering closer with Justin, and then.
59 00:05:36.030 ⇒ 00:05:36.540 Samuel Roberts: Yeah.
60 00:05:36.540 ⇒ 00:05:47.429 Uttam Kumaran: kind of just, like, I think I want to make it, and, you know, I want to make it so our delivery squad, which is you and Awash on the engineering side, and,
61 00:05:47.870 ⇒ 00:05:49.550 Uttam Kumaran: you know, the PMs.
62 00:05:49.770 ⇒ 00:05:59.339 Uttam Kumaran: and me and Robert were all, like, just, like, in lockstep, you know, about how everything is going across clients, so I… I heard the services meeting was… was really good, so that’s really.
63 00:05:59.340 ⇒ 00:06:04.039 Samuel Roberts: Yeah, that was, like, just good insight into stuff, because it’s… it’s…
64 00:06:04.230 ⇒ 00:06:13.330 Samuel Roberts: I feel like that’s one side where, you know, I kind of get some of the financial stuff from startup world, but, like, selling specific services and, like.
65 00:06:13.430 ⇒ 00:06:18.889 Samuel Roberts: the process, like, the sales cycle for that is, like, very different than what I’ve experienced. So I think it was very helpful to, like.
66 00:06:19.020 ⇒ 00:06:22.400 Samuel Roberts: One, see that model and get a sense of, like, okay, these are the, you know.
67 00:06:23.090 ⇒ 00:06:26.209 Samuel Roberts: Key points that can really drive stuff.
68 00:06:26.320 ⇒ 00:06:34.650 Samuel Roberts: And then, yeah, going through and just starting to understand. I need to flip through some of that stuff a little closer, but, that definitely…
69 00:06:34.790 ⇒ 00:06:42.200 Samuel Roberts: Gave me a better, fuller picture of, like, that whole process, and just, like, the company in general, and how we’re thinking of things moving forward.
70 00:06:42.320 ⇒ 00:06:50.669 Samuel Roberts: So I found that… I found that really helpful, just, yeah, that’s about it.
71 00:06:50.670 ⇒ 00:06:58.949 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, also. Yeah, and I think, like, kind of roughly at where, one, we’re trying to loop, now that we have sort of a great class of folks that.
72 00:06:59.580 ⇒ 00:07:05.239 Uttam Kumaran: We… where we really believe in. We want to just enable you guys to start to also
73 00:07:05.360 ⇒ 00:07:16.200 Uttam Kumaran: you know, fill in the gaps, whether it’s on the project management side, or whether it’s on the commercial side, or for some of our PMs, like, whether it’s on the engineering side, so it’s trying to bring everyone together, so I think…
74 00:07:16.310 ⇒ 00:07:25.330 Uttam Kumaran: you know, for a while, we were, you know, we were meeting as a company, like, as a whole company, because it was small for every few days, and then I think we went towards more, like.
75 00:07:25.630 ⇒ 00:07:28.910 Uttam Kumaran: okay, more, like, fractured, and then now I think…
76 00:07:29.100 ⇒ 00:07:40.119 Uttam Kumaran: I’m gonna start to meet with the whole delivery squad, more often. You know, I think it’s still tough because it’s… it’s a lot of us now, like, it’s all 3 PMs.
77 00:07:40.860 ⇒ 00:07:55.949 Uttam Kumaran: potentially Henry, and… but I want all of us to be on the same page, and so if we do need to do that really often until we feel good enough to just do it less frequently, like… but I… I also want to get your feedback on
78 00:07:56.220 ⇒ 00:07:58.760 Uttam Kumaran: What you think would be helpful.
79 00:07:59.390 ⇒ 00:08:04.049 Uttam Kumaran: You know, to kind of get a sense of, like, the direction on the entire, like.
80 00:08:04.270 ⇒ 00:08:10.640 Uttam Kumaran: You know, delivery team, or, like, if you think any of the… anything else would be, you know, helpful for you.
81 00:08:15.970 ⇒ 00:08:19.849 Samuel Roberts: I don’t mind you think about it a little bit, because so far it’s been, again, also good insight into, like.
82 00:08:20.040 ⇒ 00:08:24.060 Samuel Roberts: how other people are thinking about stuff and the company in general.
83 00:08:24.850 ⇒ 00:08:26.710 Samuel Roberts: I don’t know if I have much, like…
84 00:08:28.940 ⇒ 00:08:33.919 Samuel Roberts: off the top of my head that I’m, like, missing from that. I feel like…
85 00:08:34.169 ⇒ 00:08:36.909 Samuel Roberts: Especially as things, like, keep rolling, and we’re just, like.
86 00:08:37.030 ⇒ 00:08:41.469 Samuel Roberts: That, like, idea of, like, being in lockstep is definitely, like, an ongoing thing.
87 00:08:41.470 ⇒ 00:08:42.110 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
88 00:08:42.669 ⇒ 00:08:49.439 Samuel Roberts: And even just thinking with Justin a few times about some stuff was helpful, like, he definitely, like.
89 00:08:49.769 ⇒ 00:08:56.429 Samuel Roberts: gets how to run a project. And it’s helpful because, like, I’m so used to the startup world, where, like, I’ve been doing that, like.
90 00:08:57.009 ⇒ 00:09:00.269 Samuel Roberts: Kind of implicitly, but not explicitly.
91 00:09:00.419 ⇒ 00:09:19.409 Samuel Roberts: Sometimes, that I was just like, oh, I can pass, like, this is… it’s gonna be his responsibility, I can focus on this, or, like, he needs some tech guidance on this to understand what it is, just, like, push it, you know, things like that, that I think we’ll start to get more in sync with, even just, like, working together overall, like, whether or not those meetings are happening, like, those meetings will be good, but just, like.
92 00:09:19.749 ⇒ 00:09:27.149 Samuel Roberts: the rhythm of, like, the stand-ups and the work and the… the cadence of that, I think, is… is,
93 00:09:27.369 ⇒ 00:09:39.829 Samuel Roberts: helpful for me, getting up to speed on some of the stuff that I’m still, like I said, not quite there on, like… I get, I get, like, you know, default stuff, but I don’t feel like I’m… I didn’t feel confident okaying that thing earlier, for example.
94 00:09:39.830 ⇒ 00:09:40.380 Uttam Kumaran: Without…
95 00:09:40.380 ⇒ 00:09:45.849 Samuel Roberts: your review. Just because I don’t know the client as well,
96 00:09:46.350 ⇒ 00:09:56.849 Samuel Roberts: But, like, that’s where I’ll start to get better, and even as I’m, like, attending these stand-ups and getting maybe more face time with them and stuff, too, I’ll feel more confident with that sort of stuff.
97 00:09:58.150 ⇒ 00:10:00.269 Samuel Roberts: But yeah, I think, I think that’s, like…
98 00:10:00.930 ⇒ 00:10:06.290 Samuel Roberts: You stepping, kind of, out of the… the weeds on some of the client stuff, and, like, more…
99 00:10:06.890 ⇒ 00:10:12.899 Samuel Roberts: On the delivery side, and then obviously, like you said, I think eventually handing that off, too, like, is gonna be a good, kind of.
100 00:10:14.150 ⇒ 00:10:16.639 Samuel Roberts: Plan of attack to keep those going.
101 00:10:18.950 ⇒ 00:10:24.560 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, and this is also kind of, like, my next… one thing that I’m starting to think about,
102 00:10:24.660 ⇒ 00:10:26.820 Uttam Kumaran: Are you in front of your laptop, by the way?
103 00:10:27.280 ⇒ 00:10:29.250 Samuel Roberts: Yeah, yeah, I’m at my desk, actually.
104 00:10:29.250 ⇒ 00:10:35.520 Uttam Kumaran: Oh, okay, cool. Maybe I just… I kind of wanted to share… I’ve been working on… this,
105 00:10:36.020 ⇒ 00:10:47.980 Uttam Kumaran: You know, from time to time, I just work on different manifestos that I write, and nobody reads in Notion, but this is another one that I’ve been writing recently, which is just about, like, our org design.
106 00:10:48.580 ⇒ 00:10:50.140 Samuel Roberts: Yeah, okay.
107 00:10:50.150 ⇒ 00:10:55.120 Uttam Kumaran: And this, this document has a lot of stuff in it.
108 00:10:55.670 ⇒ 00:11:01.359 Uttam Kumaran: Notes about allocation, Notes about delivery, but,
109 00:11:02.690 ⇒ 00:11:07.900 Uttam Kumaran: One of the things that I’m constantly at battle with is running this business
110 00:11:08.290 ⇒ 00:11:15.299 Uttam Kumaran: either like or different to traditional consulting. And I try to challenge at every step of the way, like.
111 00:11:15.830 ⇒ 00:11:23.099 Uttam Kumaran: why do we need more people, and why can’t we just have people take on a larger VIN diagram?
112 00:11:23.240 ⇒ 00:11:27.180 Uttam Kumaran: And I, you know, one of the things that I think a lot about is, like.
113 00:11:27.440 ⇒ 00:11:34.719 Uttam Kumaran: how does AI help with that? But also, like, okay, what are the roles, really, on a client? And one thing we kind of… one thing I kind of noticed…
114 00:11:34.950 ⇒ 00:11:44.629 Uttam Kumaran: is that, you know, as we’ve been trying to move Robert and I out of clients, the one thing we’ve struggled with is sort of, like.
115 00:11:45.250 ⇒ 00:11:55.679 Uttam Kumaran: What both of us, like, kind of described as, like, kind of like this… basically, like.
116 00:11:57.440 ⇒ 00:12:11.299 Uttam Kumaran: like, what we describe as kind of a strategist role. I think we’re kind of seeing a couple things. We’re kind of, one, seeing that, like, when PMs are on clients, and with our engineers, yes, tickets get done, and new tickets get created, but there’s no real, like.
117 00:12:11.510 ⇒ 00:12:26.340 Uttam Kumaran: understanding of, like, are we accomplishing the goal here, and then what’s next after it, right? The second thing is there’s also, like, that… typically those… both those parties don’t really make strategic decisions, like, should we go left or right at this juncture, or completely stop, or double down?
118 00:12:27.000 ⇒ 00:12:32.370 Uttam Kumaran: You know, I also think that… There is, like…
119 00:12:32.510 ⇒ 00:12:37.219 Uttam Kumaran: a difference between being, like, an engineering PM, but also, like.
120 00:12:37.550 ⇒ 00:12:45.140 Uttam Kumaran: Asking the right questions in a client meeting, thinking about, like, decision paths, Communicating, you know, like.
121 00:12:45.270 ⇒ 00:12:55.920 Uttam Kumaran: However the client learns the best. But generally, like, just driving, you know, an engagement forward, like, versus just plugging in.
122 00:12:56.290 ⇒ 00:12:57.980 Uttam Kumaran: You know, like.
123 00:12:58.980 ⇒ 00:13:06.410 Uttam Kumaran: like, for example, like, our PMs may be like, cool, we need to hit margin, let’s just do less work. But there’s… but there’s also, like.
124 00:13:06.570 ⇒ 00:13:08.729 Uttam Kumaran: There’s something on them…
125 00:13:09.870 ⇒ 00:13:16.930 Uttam Kumaran: there’s just something else there, and so roughly, we’ve bottled down to, like, okay, I think there’s, like, almost, like, a strategist role here.
126 00:13:17.160 ⇒ 00:13:21.739 Uttam Kumaran: And… it’s something that I’m starting to think more deeply about.
127 00:13:21.870 ⇒ 00:13:38.530 Uttam Kumaran: either, like, bringing from within, or going externally to kind of find, which is almost like trying to find the skill set that I think Robert and I do well, which is, like, we have a deep technical background, but we also have, like, the kind of the commercial sense. And so in this document.
128 00:13:38.660 ⇒ 00:13:43.590 Uttam Kumaran: like… there are, of course, some financial benefits to that as well, but I also think that
129 00:13:43.970 ⇒ 00:13:51.430 Uttam Kumaran: we want to… there’s gonna be engineers and PMs that have to execute normally, but there has to be one other kind of, like, character that just, like.
130 00:13:51.540 ⇒ 00:13:52.680 Uttam Kumaran: drives…
131 00:13:53.450 ⇒ 00:14:06.360 Uttam Kumaran: the forward looks for the next thing around the corner, and it’s like when… like, you know the feeling when you walk into a meeting with a client, and… and people just, like, they’re just happy that we’re there, and we’re happy we’re solving problems.
132 00:14:06.360 ⇒ 00:14:06.830 Samuel Roberts: Yeah.
133 00:14:06.830 ⇒ 00:14:20.729 Uttam Kumaran: and I’m sure you can see that when I’m in meetings, and I’m just, like, riffing and moving to the next thing, but the thing is, like, I can’t execute that work, and I certainly can’t coordinate it. So, one thing that we’re thinking about is just, like.
134 00:14:21.520 ⇒ 00:14:27.070 Uttam Kumaran: Having a, like, a different org… or, like, kind of delivery team, which is, like, a strategist.
135 00:14:27.290 ⇒ 00:14:34.609 Uttam Kumaran: engineer, PM, and then, like, sort of some sort of AI coordination, which the strategist is, like, the engagement manager.
136 00:14:34.750 ⇒ 00:14:44.600 Uttam Kumaran: You know, they’re operating with maybe not, like, 100% confidence, but they know how to frame the story, they know how to frame decisions, and they just brought… they know how to just, like.
137 00:14:44.710 ⇒ 00:14:57.739 Uttam Kumaran: run those meetings to a T. We’re still not compromising on engineers, like, I think the one thing I love about you, Mustafa, Casey, Awash, is that you guys are just Swiss Army knives, like…
138 00:14:57.740 ⇒ 00:15:09.639 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah. And increasingly, more on the data side, you know, as you guys start to start to do more data work, like, that doesn’t… we’re still looking for the best people there. And then the PMs, like.
139 00:15:09.880 ⇒ 00:15:18.629 Uttam Kumaran: the problem that we had before is, I was like, look, why aren’t… like, shouldn’t the PMs just be doing strategy? But, like, now that Justin’s here, I’m realizing that
140 00:15:19.040 ⇒ 00:15:31.070 Uttam Kumaran: the level of coordination and things that they have to manage, it’s not the same role, you know? Like, they have to run all the meetings, make sure everything’s tracked, and then also hit margins, hit communication.
141 00:15:31.250 ⇒ 00:15:37.419 Uttam Kumaran: coordinate, and I think… and they want to protect the focus, actually, for the strategists and engineering.
142 00:15:37.420 ⇒ 00:15:43.620 Samuel Roberts: Yeah, that’s true, that’s true. Yeah, I think there’s definitely, like, an organizational, like.
143 00:15:44.050 ⇒ 00:15:56.229 Samuel Roberts: philosophy, where, like, yeah, you could give that work to the PMs, but are you gonna be… like, you’re gonna move certain things forward, but are you gonna move it all forward? And, like, that’s a big ask of a PM for… for a lot of these things, but I totally see that. Like.
144 00:15:56.780 ⇒ 00:16:02.450 Samuel Roberts: you know, at a product company, I can kind of see, like, you know, this project manager’s is also product managers, like, it’s a different…
145 00:16:02.450 ⇒ 00:16:03.510 Uttam Kumaran: Yes.
146 00:16:03.510 ⇒ 00:16:05.839 Samuel Roberts: The different, focus.
147 00:16:05.840 ⇒ 00:16:07.209 Uttam Kumaran: Here, like, and also…
148 00:16:07.210 ⇒ 00:16:08.350 Samuel Roberts: To action, yeah.
149 00:16:08.350 ⇒ 00:16:11.180 Uttam Kumaran: Our PMs are managing 5 projects each, like…
150 00:16:11.180 ⇒ 00:16:11.820 Samuel Roberts: True, yeah.
151 00:16:11.820 ⇒ 00:16:13.310 Uttam Kumaran: leash, right? So…
152 00:16:13.860 ⇒ 00:16:20.639 Uttam Kumaran: they need to just be, like, machines in organization. To have them think creatively is just a different part of the brain.
153 00:16:20.800 ⇒ 00:16:24.720 Uttam Kumaran: It’s also, like, not something that everybody can do, like, I think that…
154 00:16:25.520 ⇒ 00:16:44.519 Uttam Kumaran: for the most part, the strategist, I feel like, has to come from the engineering side and become someone who learns, like, kind of the commercial business side. Yeah. It kind of is hard, but it is something that PMs could do, but they would have to really start to gain confidence in, like, what is a technical roadmap, especially because our work is very technical.
155 00:16:44.520 ⇒ 00:16:45.860 Samuel Roberts: Right, right, yeah.
156 00:16:45.860 ⇒ 00:16:54.540 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, kind of today, this is sort of our situation, and it’s funny, because I was talking to AI, I was like, I was talking to AI, I was like, maybe Stan can move over, so that’s why I put it here.
157 00:16:54.540 ⇒ 00:16:55.450 Samuel Roberts: Yeah, yeah.
158 00:16:55.450 ⇒ 00:17:01.619 Uttam Kumaran: I was sort of… so I’m sort of, like, mapping out, okay, like, who is on PM, who is on…
159 00:17:01.770 ⇒ 00:17:16.820 Uttam Kumaran: strategist who is on engineers, and so right now, PMs are, like, Rico and Amber. I think we sort of are, you know, I think there’s a lot of folks on our engineering team that could be considered, but again, I think about the most senior people, it’s really, like, you, Zoron.
160 00:17:17.369 ⇒ 00:17:20.870 Uttam Kumaran: Henry and, like, Awash.
161 00:17:20.970 ⇒ 00:17:22.119 Samuel Roberts: And then…
162 00:17:22.119 ⇒ 00:17:26.109 Uttam Kumaran: it’s… the other thing is, like, I’m trying to think about, okay, like, what are the principles, like.
163 00:17:26.490 ⇒ 00:17:44.180 Uttam Kumaran: a high bias to decisions. Like, you can see that in those meetings with Interlude or Deepa, I’m like, cool, we could do that, or we can’t do that, or here’s what we would need, and we’re like, I’m setting up the engineer for success, I’m setting up the PM on, like, what they need to do next, but then I’m just sort of like, okay, run, guys, and then tell me by the time we get to next Friday.
164 00:17:44.280 ⇒ 00:17:51.630 Uttam Kumaran: what we gotta have going, you know? And then it’s also the storytelling, it’s like, how do we actually demonstrate the value? And so… Yes.
165 00:17:51.760 ⇒ 00:17:57.700 Uttam Kumaran: I’m… I’m kind of like… this is kind of the end of my little, like, diatribe, but it’s sort of like…
166 00:17:57.860 ⇒ 00:18:04.610 Uttam Kumaran: okay, like, what does a great strategist look like? Well, I think there is a sort of a client leadership-client relationship.
167 00:18:04.940 ⇒ 00:18:08.960 Uttam Kumaran: Certainly is a commercial sense, like, okay, how do we get the upsell, how do we get the renewal?
168 00:18:09.280 ⇒ 00:18:14.039 Uttam Kumaran: how do we scope something? I think there is, like, this sort of technical breadth, like.
169 00:18:14.450 ⇒ 00:18:16.229 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I think you have to be good at, like.
170 00:18:16.630 ⇒ 00:18:24.830 Uttam Kumaran: One or two different, sort of, like, specialties or combinations of technical things, like, and with some… with some depth.
171 00:18:26.630 ⇒ 00:18:44.629 Uttam Kumaran: I think you have to have a really good barometer for delegation and decomposing problems to whoever the party is, like, setting up the PM for success, setting up the engineer. Yep. And then it’s also just, like, look, imagine if you were just in a… you’ve… you put yourself in the position of the client, and you act as their true partner versus just, like.
172 00:18:44.950 ⇒ 00:18:50.200 Uttam Kumaran: another person for them to tell what… exactly what to do. Most American collabs don’t know what to do, and so that’s where…
173 00:18:50.200 ⇒ 00:18:50.680 Samuel Roberts: Yeah, yeah.
174 00:18:50.680 ⇒ 00:18:54.010 Uttam Kumaran: I sort of come in, I’m like, you should do this, here’s how we’re gonna do it.
175 00:18:54.190 ⇒ 00:18:57.549 Uttam Kumaran: This is what you could expect, what do you think, you know?
176 00:18:57.780 ⇒ 00:19:01.630 Uttam Kumaran: And then I have some, like, thoughts on…
177 00:19:01.960 ⇒ 00:19:13.400 Uttam Kumaran: engineers and PM. And so, roughly, one is, like, I would love to get your… your thoughts on… on this as a whole. Second, you know, my… my… my… always my first…
178 00:19:13.720 ⇒ 00:19:16.140 Uttam Kumaran: Thought is to, like, look internally.
179 00:19:16.320 ⇒ 00:19:17.660 Samuel Roberts: for…
180 00:19:17.870 ⇒ 00:19:23.739 Uttam Kumaran: Like, to look internally to see, like, okay, are there any people in the company that
181 00:19:24.090 ⇒ 00:19:29.520 Uttam Kumaran: Are showing promise to kind of go towards, like, more of this strategy role, or even want to do that.
182 00:19:29.640 ⇒ 00:19:45.599 Uttam Kumaran: You know, and so that’s another thing. And then the third thing is, like, I think, really, like, the strategist’s role is gonna be probably the primary role on a client that’s gonna start to be able to benefit from, like, variable comp.
183 00:19:45.840 ⇒ 00:19:47.229 Uttam Kumaran: I think over the short term.
184 00:19:47.450 ⇒ 00:20:03.499 Uttam Kumaran: You know, so what I’m kind of thinking about is, like, okay, if that strategist is taking over for someone, for me, that person needs to be understanding how we get the renewal, how we get the upsell, and even it’s starting to… once you kind of nail that, you can start to assist in sales.
185 00:20:03.640 ⇒ 00:20:08.300 Uttam Kumaran: And I want to give that person, like, a piece of that, you know?
186 00:20:08.510 ⇒ 00:20:16.889 Uttam Kumaran: Right. And that’s the sort of incentive structure that we’re setting. I mean, I still think at our company, we have to have technical leadership, like, so I don’t think this is, like.
187 00:20:17.000 ⇒ 00:20:23.750 Uttam Kumaran: I don’t think ever… this is, like, we have engineers, and then we have, like, we still need people that are very senior on the technical side.
188 00:20:23.860 ⇒ 00:20:30.750 Uttam Kumaran: But I don’t know, I wanted to sort of, like, one, get your opinion, like, whether, like, just broadly, but also.
189 00:20:31.220 ⇒ 00:20:35.569 Uttam Kumaran: I have some… I also have some thoughts on, like, how we’re gonna try to get
190 00:20:35.720 ⇒ 00:20:51.109 Uttam Kumaran: people there, because I also, like, I think this is a very unique role, and, you know, I don’t… it’s gonna be… it’s very hard to find this type of person, so part of this is gonna be, like, we have to set up some type of, like, basically, like, apprenticeship.
191 00:20:51.420 ⇒ 00:20:53.839 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah. Okay, follow how we do this.
192 00:20:54.090 ⇒ 00:20:57.020 Uttam Kumaran: follow me as I go do this for several clients.
193 00:20:57.170 ⇒ 00:21:05.170 Uttam Kumaran: I could give very, very specific feedback on, like, how we presented, how to run this, and then sort of, like, guide people towards getting there, versus
194 00:21:05.460 ⇒ 00:21:10.760 Uttam Kumaran: me being like, look, you, like, I don’t think this is very easy to… to have all these things.
195 00:21:10.870 ⇒ 00:21:14.349 Uttam Kumaran: And so we would identify, okay, like, where can we…
196 00:21:14.560 ⇒ 00:21:17.029 Uttam Kumaran: Where, where, where do we need…
197 00:21:17.280 ⇒ 00:21:27.790 Uttam Kumaran: help, and then we could do, like, you know, 6-8 week, sort of, like, okay, this is… the job is to get you there. But I don’t know, this is just sort of something I’ve been thinking about the last few days, so…
198 00:21:27.790 ⇒ 00:21:28.380 Samuel Roberts: Okay.
199 00:21:29.000 ⇒ 00:21:32.879 Samuel Roberts: Yeah, I mean, I think it… it makes sense.
200 00:21:33.230 ⇒ 00:21:38.389 Samuel Roberts: Because, like, if you… if… if you step back from the clients, like, there’s no one…
201 00:21:38.770 ⇒ 00:21:41.840 Samuel Roberts: doing this, I constantly… like, I…
202 00:21:42.190 ⇒ 00:21:44.669 Samuel Roberts: Yeah, I see it, because there’s a… another…
203 00:21:44.670 ⇒ 00:21:46.380 Uttam Kumaran: all the values that differently.
204 00:21:47.040 ⇒ 00:21:56.570 Samuel Roberts: There’s another, like, piece to this, like, the client management, the engagement management that is not… there.
205 00:21:57.270 ⇒ 00:22:01.139 Samuel Roberts: with anyone else but, like, you right now, and a lot of the stuff I’ve seen.
206 00:22:04.200 ⇒ 00:22:10.960 Samuel Roberts: So I think, like, it does make sense to, like, think about this element of it, in the very least.
207 00:22:11.990 ⇒ 00:22:16.370 Samuel Roberts: It sounds… Yeah, I mean, it sounds interesting.
208 00:22:16.850 ⇒ 00:22:23.689 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, and this isn’t a, like, yes or… it’s also not, like, this isn’t gonna be everybody, but it’s also not, like…
209 00:22:24.120 ⇒ 00:22:28.190 Uttam Kumaran: this isn’t in any way higher than another role, but it is, I think.
210 00:22:28.190 ⇒ 00:22:28.679 Samuel Roberts: Of course.
211 00:22:28.680 ⇒ 00:22:29.610 Uttam Kumaran: role.
212 00:22:29.650 ⇒ 00:22:32.279 Samuel Roberts: That’s what I’m saying, right? That we have to…
213 00:22:32.510 ⇒ 00:22:35.539 Uttam Kumaran: that I’m kind of thinking, I’m like, okay, I feel like…
214 00:22:35.810 ⇒ 00:22:37.930 Uttam Kumaran: I feel like we need this, you know?
215 00:22:38.210 ⇒ 00:22:44.999 Samuel Roberts: Yeah, yo, because again, it’s like, you were, like, you know, managing, like, all the AI stuff, like, the technical side of that.
216 00:22:45.530 ⇒ 00:22:52.350 Samuel Roberts: on client stuff. But, like, you were step back from that, and, like, I have taken that over, but there’s still, like, this part where it’s, like.
217 00:22:52.780 ⇒ 00:22:57.399 Samuel Roberts: Understanding what the client needs in a broader sense than just, like.
218 00:22:57.850 ⇒ 00:23:04.440 Samuel Roberts: This is what we agreed to build, like, finding those things, like, being the client advocate in some way.
219 00:23:04.460 ⇒ 00:23:05.640 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
220 00:23:05.950 ⇒ 00:23:14.360 Samuel Roberts: that is… is not captured right now, I think, by the current, like, structure, I guess.
221 00:23:14.590 ⇒ 00:23:19.190 Samuel Roberts: Except for, like, you, because everything falls on… you know what I mean? Like, that’s just the nature of, like, when there’s
222 00:23:19.530 ⇒ 00:23:26.559 Samuel Roberts: to do it, it’s you, and you have the skill set and the knowledge to, like, do that right now. Yeah. I think, like, yeah, especially in terms of
223 00:23:26.790 ⇒ 00:23:35.740 Samuel Roberts: structuring… the… the teams, like, that’s… this should be explicit, probably. So I think it makes sense, like.
224 00:23:36.080 ⇒ 00:23:36.710 Samuel Roberts: What do you mean?
225 00:23:36.710 ⇒ 00:23:37.580 Uttam Kumaran: explicit.
226 00:23:37.580 ⇒ 00:23:39.600 Samuel Roberts: Like, having a strategy, is what I’m saying. Like.
227 00:23:39.600 ⇒ 00:23:40.200 Uttam Kumaran: I see it.
228 00:23:40.200 ⇒ 00:23:43.860 Samuel Roberts: This is a… this is a thing that has been happening, but not…
229 00:23:44.140 ⇒ 00:23:44.790 Uttam Kumaran: Yes.
230 00:23:45.310 ⇒ 00:23:49.479 Samuel Roberts: a role, like, a tangible thing. We can be like, oh, who is responsible for these.
231 00:23:49.480 ⇒ 00:23:56.640 Uttam Kumaran: Well, before, I was like, okay, well, this is, like, maybe tech… I’m doing, like, a tech lead thing, I’m doing a sales thing, but I actually think, like.
232 00:23:56.640 ⇒ 00:23:57.190 Samuel Roberts: Yeah.
233 00:23:57.190 ⇒ 00:23:58.640 Uttam Kumaran: You need to be one person.
234 00:23:59.250 ⇒ 00:24:04.669 Samuel Roberts: Yes, yeah, I think… I think you’re right, and I think, like, the technical, technical breadth there, like, the…
235 00:24:05.230 ⇒ 00:24:12.190 Samuel Roberts: again, like, you could get a PM to do this if they weren’t busy with lots of other things, but they also need to know, like, what
236 00:24:12.650 ⇒ 00:24:19.770 Samuel Roberts: Is possible, what we’re capable of, what the… like… client…
237 00:24:19.920 ⇒ 00:24:22.309 Samuel Roberts: what am I trying to say here? Like…
238 00:24:23.260 ⇒ 00:24:27.039 Samuel Roberts: The client… like, what is the client trying to achieve, right?
239 00:24:27.540 ⇒ 00:24:30.990 Samuel Roberts: Like, what is the best thing for, like, their…
240 00:24:32.060 ⇒ 00:24:39.680 Samuel Roberts: bottom line. And how do we contribute to that? I think that’s something that I… I have, like…
241 00:24:40.600 ⇒ 00:24:42.259 Samuel Roberts: I see you doing…
242 00:24:43.160 ⇒ 00:24:47.209 Samuel Roberts: And I think, like, yeah, now that you’ve articulated this, that that is an important piece.
243 00:24:47.680 ⇒ 00:24:48.960 Samuel Roberts: for, like…
244 00:24:49.580 ⇒ 00:24:55.710 Uttam Kumaran: for every project, for every client. But see, the authority is actually built because I’m not, like, an MBA, right? Like, an MBA.
245 00:24:55.710 ⇒ 00:24:56.300 Samuel Roberts: 100%.
246 00:24:56.300 ⇒ 00:24:58.790 Uttam Kumaran: Come in and, like, make shit up.
247 00:24:59.260 ⇒ 00:25:00.780 Samuel Roberts: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
248 00:25:00.780 ⇒ 00:25:03.269 Uttam Kumaran: of technical… a little bit of technical authority.
249 00:25:03.270 ⇒ 00:25:04.060 Samuel Roberts: Oh, that, yeah.
250 00:25:04.060 ⇒ 00:25:04.759 Uttam Kumaran: That’s enough to win.
251 00:25:05.030 ⇒ 00:25:09.509 Samuel Roberts: Yeah, that, and, like, the idea that, you know, the clients trust us, because we haven’t
252 00:25:09.730 ⇒ 00:25:16.859 Samuel Roberts: they haven’t seen us making shit up. Like, there’s an element of that, that just, like, as we work with people… I… I was… I was,
253 00:25:17.260 ⇒ 00:25:22.440 Samuel Roberts: catching up on the meeting with Matt for ABC to see how it went, on the platform, and he was like.
254 00:25:22.440 ⇒ 00:25:23.009 Uttam Kumaran: Oh, yeah.
255 00:25:23.010 ⇒ 00:25:27.539 Samuel Roberts: working with you guys, and like, that kind of, like, relationship building, I think, is part of it, too.
256 00:25:27.540 ⇒ 00:25:28.320 Uttam Kumaran: Yes.
257 00:25:28.710 ⇒ 00:25:29.460 Samuel Roberts: It’s, it’s not…
258 00:25:29.460 ⇒ 00:25:36.379 Uttam Kumaran: Seeing that meeting, half the meet… like, most of the meeting was me just being like, well, what if we did this, or we could do this, or did you guys think about this, right?
259 00:25:37.230 ⇒ 00:25:37.910 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
260 00:25:37.910 ⇒ 00:25:40.819 Samuel Roberts: Oh, I totally see that, I totally see that.
261 00:25:42.580 ⇒ 00:25:51.799 Samuel Roberts: And again, I think it was just something, like, less defined before, and just, like, a thing you were doing, and putting it down like this makes a ton of sense.
262 00:25:52.430 ⇒ 00:25:55.280 Samuel Roberts: So, yeah, I mean, I… I think I might.
263 00:25:55.280 ⇒ 00:25:55.780 Uttam Kumaran: So, of course.
264 00:25:56.520 ⇒ 00:26:01.410 Uttam Kumaran: Of course, my… yeah, my ask is, like, what do you, like… like, one.
265 00:26:01.740 ⇒ 00:26:10.369 Uttam Kumaran: and this is gonna be a no, is, like, you still… you feel like this is something you’d be interested in? You still… are you… are you, like.
266 00:26:10.700 ⇒ 00:26:12.950 Uttam Kumaran: Fuck that, I want to chill, and on the
267 00:26:13.560 ⇒ 00:26:18.129 Uttam Kumaran: and run stuff, which is complete… again, I don’t want to frame this as a…
268 00:26:18.440 ⇒ 00:26:18.830 Samuel Roberts: Yeah.
269 00:26:18.830 ⇒ 00:26:27.960 Uttam Kumaran: I… for me, I want to… like, this is something that, one, it’s gonna be hard to hire for. Second, I know that there are people who are, like.
270 00:26:28.100 ⇒ 00:26:36.819 Uttam Kumaran: me in the past, who were on the engineering side that, like, wanted to kind of become more on the business side. I think this is a great path for someone like that.
271 00:26:36.820 ⇒ 00:26:38.509 Samuel Roberts: It’s not def- certainly, like.
272 00:26:38.960 ⇒ 00:26:48.989 Uttam Kumaran: not easy, like, there is a lot of stuff, there is a lot to learn, but I don’t know, I’m just curious, like, what you think. yeah.
273 00:26:49.820 ⇒ 00:26:53.290 Samuel Roberts: Yeah, I mean, I’m… I’m… It’s definitely not, like, a…
274 00:26:53.660 ⇒ 00:27:00.500 Samuel Roberts: No, fuck no, I want to stay. Like, I… I’m intrigued, I’m intrigued. I’ll put it that way. Okay, okay. Like, without a little more thinking about it, like, I…
275 00:27:00.770 ⇒ 00:27:01.670 Samuel Roberts: I have…
276 00:27:02.020 ⇒ 00:27:08.230 Samuel Roberts: seen myself kind of going this way a little bit, and I think that part of that is just the startup stuff, like, if you’re… I mean, obviously, we’re not…
277 00:27:08.540 ⇒ 00:27:17.480 Samuel Roberts: we weren’t doing, like, client projects, but even just, like, kind of that… I don’t say leveling up, because that implies, like, the hierarchy, but just, like, shifting roles to, like, what’s needed over time.
278 00:27:17.480 ⇒ 00:27:19.710 Uttam Kumaran: as a company grows, I, I…
279 00:27:19.710 ⇒ 00:27:22.960 Samuel Roberts: get that, and even just thinking of, like, my career in general, like.
280 00:27:23.000 ⇒ 00:27:42.509 Samuel Roberts: I like tech, I love… I love coding, I love solving problems that way. I like the broader stuff as well, like the architectural stuff, and, like, thinking about it, and, like, even seeing it now, it’s actually been very refreshing to, like, just working with, like, Casey Mustafa, and sometimes I’ll be like, oh, what about this? And they’re like, oh, yeah, and I’m like, okay, so there’s… there’s something here that I’m, like, I can… I can get.
281 00:27:42.510 ⇒ 00:27:50.299 Samuel Roberts: And so the, like… that’s been very gratifying for me in general. But also, like, I don’t… like, I want to play with things, I want to work on things, I don’t want to, like, be…
282 00:27:50.350 ⇒ 00:27:53.139 Samuel Roberts: so out of it that I’m, like, not touching it.
283 00:27:53.550 ⇒ 00:28:00.440 Samuel Roberts: Technically. And I can think this one probably still could have that, depending on how it, like, the client work and stuff.
284 00:28:00.570 ⇒ 00:28:05.070 Samuel Roberts: And I… but also, like, I…
285 00:28:05.830 ⇒ 00:28:14.560 Samuel Roberts: Yeah, I don’t know, I’ve, like, been kind of sinking into this role a little bit, and, like, working with them, and, like, enjoying that, so I don’t want to just be like, get me out of here, kind of thing.
286 00:28:14.560 ⇒ 00:28:17.879 Uttam Kumaran: No, no, certainly, and this is also not like a,
287 00:28:18.440 ⇒ 00:28:22.199 Uttam Kumaran: It also just depends, look, I think there’s a, like, I…
288 00:28:22.380 ⇒ 00:28:25.869 Uttam Kumaran: It… I think this is just a third distinct role.
289 00:28:25.870 ⇒ 00:28:26.290 Samuel Roberts: Exactly.
290 00:28:26.290 ⇒ 00:28:31.990 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah. For me, I would love to see that people from the engineering side
291 00:28:32.160 ⇒ 00:28:34.830 Uttam Kumaran: want to get into here, because I think your leverage…
292 00:28:35.240 ⇒ 00:28:48.449 Uttam Kumaran: can be higher. I also think on the project management side, I would like people from there to be like, look, I’ve been able to run these things, like, I want to start to think about the strategy. But it’s also, like, we still need really amazing engineers, and I don’t.
293 00:28:48.450 ⇒ 00:28:48.910 Samuel Roberts: Yeah.
294 00:28:48.910 ⇒ 00:28:50.330 Uttam Kumaran: Negates any of that.
295 00:28:50.840 ⇒ 00:28:51.919 Samuel Roberts: Not, of course not.
296 00:28:51.920 ⇒ 00:28:52.720 Uttam Kumaran: You know?
297 00:28:53.000 ⇒ 00:29:03.019 Uttam Kumaran: But again, it depends, like, if you’re like, hey, I just want to go deeper on technical and technical management, and I also see the level of care you’re doing on the feedback and.
298 00:29:03.020 ⇒ 00:29:03.660 Samuel Roberts: Yeah, yeah.
299 00:29:03.660 ⇒ 00:29:15.770 Uttam Kumaran: like, that’s also perfect, because we need, like, it’s… it’s… for… I need to continue to go attract the best people, and we need to nurture them, and, like, it is a… it is a really great area, and it’s…
300 00:29:15.860 ⇒ 00:29:33.990 Uttam Kumaran: And we still need to… I… and also, like, again, all the… I told this to the delivery team today, I want to start going… doing more complicated stuff. Like, I still want to do fine-tuning, training models, machine learning, like, data science, like, we’re not done there, so our technical depth is going to continue, like.
301 00:29:34.250 ⇒ 00:29:51.159 Uttam Kumaran: I feel like some of the stuff we’re doing now is just… it’s hard, but it’s, like, it could be… it just… we could be taking on bigger challenges. So it’s… it’s just an option to think about. I want to definitely, like, see who in our engineering org is curious about this, and then…
302 00:29:51.900 ⇒ 00:30:00.639 Uttam Kumaran: see who I… see who I can, like, kind of get into there, because for me, the biggest obstacle is, like, okay, this is a clear role that we have in every client.
303 00:30:01.420 ⇒ 00:30:06.120 Uttam Kumaran: I… I think I will… I want to either find it internally, or I have to go, you know.
304 00:30:06.440 ⇒ 00:30:09.189 Uttam Kumaran: We’re gonna go look for folks, so…
305 00:30:09.190 ⇒ 00:30:12.610 Samuel Roberts: Yeah. No, I’m definitely, definitely curious, put it that way.
306 00:30:12.610 ⇒ 00:30:13.230 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
307 00:30:13.490 ⇒ 00:30:14.370 Samuel Roberts: I…
308 00:30:14.470 ⇒ 00:30:26.260 Samuel Roberts: this is stuff that, like, interests me, and, like, I wanted… I mean, this is why I got into startups in the first place. There were so many things that were interesting, and it was a good way to, like, scratch a lot of itches at once, and this is one that I may not have, like, scratched as formally.
309 00:30:26.480 ⇒ 00:30:31.650 Samuel Roberts: But I’m definitely, like, intrigued by this, I’ll put it that way, yeah.
310 00:30:31.890 ⇒ 00:30:41.840 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, think about it, and even if not now, I think, like, we’re gonna test this model a little bit. Yeah. I’m also… I’m… I also just… I just think there has to be some heartbeat on these projects that, like…
311 00:30:41.840 ⇒ 00:30:42.420 Samuel Roberts: Yeah.
312 00:30:42.420 ⇒ 00:30:51.290 Uttam Kumaran: I think either the engineering part can get lost in certain ways, the PM part can get lost in some… you need this glue person.
313 00:30:51.290 ⇒ 00:30:53.980 Samuel Roberts: Yeah. And I’m just… and I think they all…
314 00:30:53.980 ⇒ 00:30:56.960 Uttam Kumaran: They all three play a different role, and so…
315 00:30:57.160 ⇒ 00:30:58.750 Samuel Roberts: Yeah, I’m just like…
316 00:31:00.450 ⇒ 00:31:03.010 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I’m just, I mean… Yeah.
317 00:31:03.240 ⇒ 00:31:04.670 Samuel Roberts: Yeah, I mean, if you wanna, like.
318 00:31:05.300 ⇒ 00:31:14.729 Samuel Roberts: try some stuff, and, like, get me doing some things, and shadowing, or whatever, and, like, seeing how you think about things, and are doing things, and learn that way. I’m… I’m probably willing to at least, like.
319 00:31:14.890 ⇒ 00:31:22.219 Samuel Roberts: fit my feet in, at the… at the very least, but it’s, like, I’m… I also don’t want to hedge too much, because I don’t want you to think I’m, like, so unsure.
320 00:31:22.220 ⇒ 00:31:38.529 Uttam Kumaran: No, no, no, no, no. For me, also, this is where I’m like, look, I think everybody in either role in PM and engineering need to… to be a great leader in a consultant, you have to have a little bit of, like, a commercial sense of, like, what we’re doing.
321 00:31:38.560 ⇒ 00:31:44.730 Uttam Kumaran: So, at any… at anything, like, I want… I want everybody to have a little bit of this in their…
322 00:31:44.940 ⇒ 00:31:46.020 Uttam Kumaran: repertoire.
323 00:31:46.170 ⇒ 00:31:52.589 Uttam Kumaran: Like, we’re not gonna appear engineers, because, you know, sometimes you work in a product, and you’re like, I don’t even know what we do.
324 00:31:52.590 ⇒ 00:31:53.989 Samuel Roberts: Yeah, yeah, totally, totally.
325 00:31:53.990 ⇒ 00:32:09.950 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I can’t… and it’s like, we can’t have that. And similar with PMs, like, we can’t have the PMs be like, I don’t… all I do is push tickets around here, like, I don’t want that type of stuff at our business. But it also doesn’t have to be, like… for example, for me, I can’t get in the weeds as much as I want on the engineering side.
326 00:32:09.960 ⇒ 00:32:14.880 Uttam Kumaran: I can’t get in the weeds on the, sort of, project organization side.
327 00:32:15.070 ⇒ 00:32:23.879 Uttam Kumaran: Because my job is to just, like, show up and drive things forward, and get us the next thing, and… and get a spidey sense for when things are stalling, and find out…
328 00:32:24.180 ⇒ 00:32:26.919 Uttam Kumaran: How to get it… get it… get something out the door, and…
329 00:32:27.170 ⇒ 00:32:30.919 Uttam Kumaran: I… like, there is… there are pros and cons, you know?
330 00:32:31.410 ⇒ 00:32:36.520 Samuel Roberts: Yeah. Yeah, totally, totally. I think even having someone in this role
331 00:32:36.760 ⇒ 00:32:48.270 Samuel Roberts: like, assuming… and I think it’s a… not a big assumption, but, like, as long as the person is also, like, communicating things well to the rest of the team, I think that will even enable people to start thinking that way.
332 00:32:48.470 ⇒ 00:33:01.670 Samuel Roberts: Because, like, when you and I talk, or when I’m on a call with you, and you’re, like, doing that, like, just riffing on something and seeing if it sticks, and, like, how the client feels about it, I’m like, yeah, that’s, like, that’s energizing to, like, start thinking that way.
333 00:33:02.070 ⇒ 00:33:06.499 Samuel Roberts: And, like, I think more of that in general is… is good overall for, like.
334 00:33:06.770 ⇒ 00:33:12.129 Samuel Roberts: The team, or the pod, or whatever, you know, on the client work, like, enabling that, like.
335 00:33:12.290 ⇒ 00:33:18.269 Samuel Roberts: even having someone that’s, like, poking at, you know, the PMs and the engineers to be like.
336 00:33:18.390 ⇒ 00:33:29.259 Samuel Roberts: you know, what else… what else do you think is good? You know what I mean? I think there’s some… there’s something there where, like, that person is not just, like, doing that role, but, like, has an aura of, like, we’re… this is how we’re thinking about things.
337 00:33:29.770 ⇒ 00:33:36.049 Samuel Roberts: Because I definitely feel that from you, like, when that happens, and I’m like, oh yeah, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, that can happen, and I think, like.
338 00:33:36.250 ⇒ 00:33:42.269 Samuel Roberts: it pushes people to potentially be like, well, we could also do this. Would that be helpful? You know what I mean?
339 00:33:42.270 ⇒ 00:33:42.810 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
340 00:33:42.990 ⇒ 00:33:48.730 Samuel Roberts: And I… yeah, I think that’s actually really exciting, yeah, okay.
341 00:33:49.390 ⇒ 00:33:58.499 Uttam Kumaran: even if parts of this are interesting, you know, like, I think if… if parts of this are, like, yeah, I want to kind of learn, like, how we do… how we frame renewals or upsells or, like.
342 00:33:59.010 ⇒ 00:34:03.250 Uttam Kumaran: I want to be able to run a great client presentation or demo, like, I think they’re.
343 00:34:03.250 ⇒ 00:34:03.830 Samuel Roberts: pieces.
344 00:34:03.830 ⇒ 00:34:10.360 Uttam Kumaran: this we could break apart. And I do think engineers can gain a lot from some of this, and then, like, again, like.
345 00:34:10.630 ⇒ 00:34:16.479 Uttam Kumaran: being visible and getting your workout is so important, especially in our company, and I think we…
346 00:34:16.900 ⇒ 00:34:20.810 Uttam Kumaran: As engineers, we sometimes… we strive for perfection, and we never ship.
347 00:34:21.139 ⇒ 00:34:21.800 Uttam Kumaran: You know?
348 00:34:21.800 ⇒ 00:34:22.609 Samuel Roberts: Hi, yep.
349 00:34:22.610 ⇒ 00:34:25.319 Uttam Kumaran: I’m Yeah, and so that’s, like…
350 00:34:26.010 ⇒ 00:34:29.980 Uttam Kumaran: you know, that’s part of, like, what I want everybody to kind of have a little bit of…
351 00:34:30.409 ⇒ 00:34:36.459 Uttam Kumaran: you know, in just their own world, and it’ll help the PM
352 00:34:36.760 ⇒ 00:34:40.610 Uttam Kumaran: manage, it’ll help the strategists do their job, like… Yeah.
353 00:34:41.340 ⇒ 00:34:57.250 Samuel Roberts: Yeah, no, definitely interested in, like, pieces of it, at the very least. And like I said, I’m willing to be the guinea pig, too, if you want to, like, try something out and see how it goes. Especially, like, I don’t know, is there… long-term, it’s not one strategist, right? So either it’s coming… more people are coming up.
354 00:34:57.570 ⇒ 00:35:01.240 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I mean, I think… so I think… I think we’ll have, like…
355 00:35:01.400 ⇒ 00:35:06.860 Uttam Kumaran: again, the biggest thing is, I think right now you have me and Robert as the kind of the two strategists.
356 00:35:06.860 ⇒ 00:35:07.600 Samuel Roberts: Yeah.
357 00:35:07.600 ⇒ 00:35:21.320 Uttam Kumaran: we’re thinking about, like, maybe Henry, like, someone else who… who sort of wants to get there. Like, Henry is… Henry has kind of, like, said, like, hey, I could… I’m interested in kind of getting a little bit more on the business side. Okay. But I also, like, I don’t know, I think…
358 00:35:21.320 ⇒ 00:35:27.189 Samuel Roberts: The problem is, it’s just such, like, a unicorn role that, like, to be good at both of those things that…
359 00:35:27.320 ⇒ 00:35:31.510 Uttam Kumaran: I’m also not… I don’t care… I’m not, like, too angry if…
360 00:35:31.540 ⇒ 00:35:49.530 Uttam Kumaran: we just don’t have the people internally, because I think we have the people internally we have to do specific roles, and to either be great on the engineering side, or be great on the project management side. This is a third thing, so I’m not trying to necessarily, like, shoehorn people into it. I want to offer if people want to try, but also, again.
361 00:35:49.530 ⇒ 00:35:50.140 Samuel Roberts: Yeah, like…
362 00:35:50.270 ⇒ 00:35:52.260 Uttam Kumaran: It’s just a different thing, it’s like,
363 00:35:52.650 ⇒ 00:35:55.670 Uttam Kumaran: Makes… it’s almost, like, closer to management consulting.
364 00:35:55.810 ⇒ 00:35:58.429 Uttam Kumaran: Plus the sort of technology, you know?
365 00:35:58.430 ⇒ 00:36:00.429 Samuel Roberts: Yeah, yeah, I see what you’re saying, which is…
366 00:36:00.530 ⇒ 00:36:04.340 Samuel Roberts: It’s not, not… not interesting.
367 00:36:04.340 ⇒ 00:36:10.909 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I hear you. It is, it is, like, it is still a lot of business and a lot of talking, like, it’s…
368 00:36:11.200 ⇒ 00:36:13.969 Uttam Kumaran: It’s not deep work, it’s tough, yeah, it’s tough.
369 00:36:13.970 ⇒ 00:36:21.900 Samuel Roberts: Yeah, yeah. But again, like, this is part of the reason I got into startups in the first place, was because I… I had actually done, like, two co-ops. I don’t know if I explained this to you back in the day.
370 00:36:21.900 ⇒ 00:36:22.880 Uttam Kumaran: Oh, yeah.
371 00:36:22.880 ⇒ 00:36:27.119 Samuel Roberts: about it. I did two co-ops. The first one, I was, like, a 3D modeler. I was learning
372 00:36:27.160 ⇒ 00:36:44.149 Samuel Roberts: you know, how to model things parametrically, and, like, seeing things get made in the fab shop downstairs, very cool. But I was just being handed things to model, you know? I was just like a cog in the machine. And so then my next co-op, because I had that skill, I got hired at Nottingham Spark, which is, like, an industrial design firm.
373 00:36:44.410 ⇒ 00:36:51.099 Samuel Roberts: Here in Cleveland. And there, as an intern, I was, like, meeting with clients, I was presenting to clients, I was, you know.
374 00:36:51.280 ⇒ 00:36:59.259 Samuel Roberts: ideating on new ideas for, like, the clients coming in. I was testing things, I was, like, every step of the way, and I was like, this is awesome.
375 00:36:59.510 ⇒ 00:37:14.479 Samuel Roberts: like, at that point, I had kind of learned about Venture for America, and I was like, oh, startups seem like a cool way to get into this in different ways. And that’s kind of what, like, has driven me to, like, this current career in, like, this weird, spot that I’ve been in, where, like, I’m
376 00:37:14.900 ⇒ 00:37:19.909 Samuel Roberts: in between things, I’m wanting to do lots of stuff. So, like, this is… this does speak to me in that way, where I’m like,
377 00:37:20.010 ⇒ 00:37:27.840 Samuel Roberts: this is something that I, like, I’ve done, like, a little bit, like, not client necessarily, but, like, you know, it’s not dissimilar to, like.
378 00:37:28.020 ⇒ 00:37:29.410 Samuel Roberts: product stuff.
379 00:37:29.410 ⇒ 00:37:29.900 Uttam Kumaran: Literally.
380 00:37:29.900 ⇒ 00:37:40.259 Samuel Roberts: thinking about the user, or, like, being the advocate, and putting yourself in the shoes, and, like, learning what they need. Like, there’s definitely an element of that that I’m like, yeah, I… I can see how I…
381 00:37:40.470 ⇒ 00:37:41.709 Samuel Roberts: I can do that.
382 00:37:41.710 ⇒ 00:37:42.390 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
383 00:37:42.570 ⇒ 00:37:53.280 Samuel Roberts: And even the business stuff, like, that’s, again, that’s why I kind of got into the startup world and didn’t just, like, go work at this place, because, like, I liked what they were doing, but I also, like, wanted broader stuff, too.
384 00:37:53.280 ⇒ 00:37:55.560 Uttam Kumaran: I also think that, like.
385 00:37:55.920 ⇒ 00:38:07.129 Uttam Kumaran: there’s such a technical side, too, like, equally, like, you know, and I also… that’s… that’s where I come from, and so I don’t want to pull people away from that. I just want to make…
386 00:38:07.770 ⇒ 00:38:13.759 Uttam Kumaran: I actually… for people that want to stay there, I want to be like, okay, like, how do we pour gas on the fire? Which is why, like…
387 00:38:13.760 ⇒ 00:38:14.200 Samuel Roberts: Excellent.
388 00:38:14.200 ⇒ 00:38:19.720 Uttam Kumaran: I know it’s so tough at this company because the internal AI stuff, I feel like, is a real cutting edge.
389 00:38:19.890 ⇒ 00:38:20.530 Samuel Roberts: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
390 00:38:20.530 ⇒ 00:38:27.150 Uttam Kumaran: But, like, we have to work for our clients in order to fund that. It’s such a very ironic situation.
391 00:38:27.150 ⇒ 00:38:28.859 Samuel Roberts: I know, I feel it, I feel it.
392 00:38:29.030 ⇒ 00:38:35.680 Uttam Kumaran: And that’s why we’re like, okay, what can we do while we’re scaling up to support people, and then…
393 00:38:35.930 ⇒ 00:38:39.620 Uttam Kumaran: the margins we gain to then fund more stuff, but it’s, again, like.
394 00:38:40.100 ⇒ 00:38:45.209 Uttam Kumaran: That’s the… that is the business side of, like, okay, engineering and resource planning, and…
395 00:38:45.220 ⇒ 00:38:49.359 Samuel Roberts: Yeah. It’s funny, because I was… I was on the… I was doing something today for…
396 00:38:49.520 ⇒ 00:38:55.370 Uttam Kumaran: built for our delivery team, and I’m like, I feel like I’m… I feel like I’m playing Consulting Simulator.
397 00:38:55.370 ⇒ 00:38:59.059 Samuel Roberts: I mean, that’s, that’s… yeah.
398 00:38:59.410 ⇒ 00:39:04.620 Uttam Kumaran: And then Justin was like, I have no idea how you think that’s fun, and I’m like, I don’t know, it’s kind of…
399 00:39:04.810 ⇒ 00:39:09.050 Uttam Kumaran: changing occasions, and it feels like consulting simulator.
400 00:39:09.050 ⇒ 00:39:12.710 Samuel Roberts: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it’s like, oh, what’s that game? Like…
401 00:39:13.130 ⇒ 00:39:16.980 Samuel Roberts: I played it recently, but I first got Universal Paperclips.
402 00:39:17.470 ⇒ 00:39:19.119 Uttam Kumaran: Oh, what is that?
403 00:39:19.120 ⇒ 00:39:35.079 Samuel Roberts: That’s, like, it’s one of those, like, like, exponential growth games, where you’re, like, making paperclips, and you buy more things to make that, and you buy more things, and it’s, like, it’s not quite what you’re saying, but it is definitely that, like, oh, this is how certain things can be modeled and understood, and, like.
404 00:39:35.310 ⇒ 00:39:41.509 Samuel Roberts: Like, a simulation game is, like, not a bad proxy for, like, understanding How this stuff works?
405 00:39:41.510 ⇒ 00:39:47.219 Uttam Kumaran: My husband and I talk about this all the time. It’s just the levers now, so I’m, like, pulling this lever. Okay, let’s start.
406 00:39:47.220 ⇒ 00:39:50.780 Samuel Roberts: Exactly, exactly. 100%.
407 00:39:51.150 ⇒ 00:39:52.299 Samuel Roberts: Yeah, that’s so cool.
408 00:39:52.420 ⇒ 00:39:54.970 Samuel Roberts: That’s a fun way to put it, yeah.
409 00:39:55.150 ⇒ 00:39:55.920 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
410 00:39:56.270 ⇒ 00:40:04.509 Uttam Kumaran: Okay, well… I’m glad you kind of, like, kind of see the vision for it, so that’s what we’re gonna try to do. I think it’s gonna…
411 00:40:04.640 ⇒ 00:40:18.429 Uttam Kumaran: really allow for some separation, some more separation from us, and then, like, I think… because I still think that, like, probably long-term, I have to get back involved on the AI team to sort of continue to bridge the… I was talking to
412 00:40:19.460 ⇒ 00:40:37.649 Uttam Kumaran: I was talking to a friend, and I was like, yeah, I didn’t mention it, I don’t think he… he’s just a… I was like, yeah, we have Sam on our team was leading it, but it’s so tough, because you’re leading AI at an AI company, it’s, like, so meta, and the stuff, the problems we’re trying to solve for ourselves.
413 00:40:37.850 ⇒ 00:40:45.190 Uttam Kumaran: are really compli- like, really complicated things that don’t exist. So I was kind of like, I think the better route is that, like.
414 00:40:45.420 ⇒ 00:40:56.849 Uttam Kumaran: me and you both collaborate on the AI team once I get more time, because I still think I’m probably the highest leverage person, because by the time you spend… you go and interview everybody.
415 00:40:57.080 ⇒ 00:41:05.120 Uttam Kumaran: I would have told you what they need. You’re actually right, yeah. But what I… what I don’t have is, like, your technical depth, especially if we want to
416 00:41:05.620 ⇒ 00:41:10.469 Uttam Kumaran: and things, you know? So, like, I think it’s probably gonna end up a mix of, like.
417 00:41:10.870 ⇒ 00:41:13.259 Uttam Kumaran: A mix of me and you, basically, like.
418 00:41:13.490 ⇒ 00:41:18.720 Uttam Kumaran: I’ve just built this consulting business, so I know how to… I know what… what could have helped, and then…
419 00:41:18.720 ⇒ 00:41:19.050 Samuel Roberts: Yeah.
420 00:41:19.050 ⇒ 00:41:25.849 Uttam Kumaran: be like, hey, what can we prototype, and then ship out to the rest of the team? Because this is a true sense of, like, I don’t think the customer knows
421 00:41:26.080 ⇒ 00:41:28.069 Uttam Kumaran: What they need, like…
422 00:41:28.070 ⇒ 00:41:28.840 Samuel Roberts: Yes.
423 00:41:28.840 ⇒ 00:41:32.700 Uttam Kumaran: I don’t know if you’re feeling that, but that’s sort of, like, what my thought is.
424 00:41:32.840 ⇒ 00:41:36.179 Samuel Roberts: Yeah, no, definitely. I mean, I… I was… yeah, I…
425 00:41:36.340 ⇒ 00:41:44.399 Samuel Roberts: I get that. There’s a lot of moving parts, and a lot of, like, where’s the… where’s the leverage for, like, doing certain things, and, like, is it worth the time? Is it…
426 00:41:44.400 ⇒ 00:41:53.259 Uttam Kumaran: Well, it’s just tough to ask people, how is AI gonna help you when it’s only been here, like, a year, and I don’t think people generally have pushed it very far beyond chatting.
427 00:41:53.260 ⇒ 00:41:53.800 Samuel Roberts: That’s true.
428 00:41:53.800 ⇒ 00:41:57.220 Uttam Kumaran: So, they’re not gonna give you the product requirements you need.
429 00:41:57.220 ⇒ 00:42:05.500 Samuel Roberts: Yeah, even the few conversations I’ve had with people, like, I’m like, that’s a great green flag that you’re using ChatGPT, but, like, just tell me what you’re doing, and let me, like.
430 00:42:05.870 ⇒ 00:42:08.989 Samuel Roberts: figure out, like, where I think the technology could, like.
431 00:42:09.170 ⇒ 00:42:19.849 Samuel Roberts: help? Because people are definitely like, oh yeah, I feed that into ChatGPT. I’m like, great, that’s a good… we can make an agent for you that auto does that, you know what I mean? But, like, just tell me what you’re doing. I’m just trying to understand…
432 00:42:19.850 ⇒ 00:42:20.450 Uttam Kumaran: Like, dude.
433 00:42:20.450 ⇒ 00:42:29.519 Samuel Roberts: like, what do you spend your day doing? And, like, I can then come back to you and be like, what if we did this, what if we did that? And there’s definitely been, like, a little bit of a…
434 00:42:29.810 ⇒ 00:42:36.540 Samuel Roberts: a disconnect sometimes, because, like, people are like, oh yeah, this could be automated a little bit. I’m like, that’s great, just tell me what you’re doing.
435 00:42:36.540 ⇒ 00:42:42.050 Uttam Kumaran: Well, no, they’re just… they just don’t have, like, they just don’t have a view of, like, what’s possible?
436 00:42:42.050 ⇒ 00:42:44.200 Samuel Roberts: Yeah, I mean, I get that. I totally see.
437 00:42:44.200 ⇒ 00:42:44.660 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
438 00:42:44.660 ⇒ 00:42:51.950 Samuel Roberts: it’s hard. Like, there’s still so many moves, like, things are moving so quickly, but yeah, I, I…
439 00:42:52.880 ⇒ 00:43:02.270 Samuel Roberts: yeah, I appreciate the fact that they’re, like, at least trying and, like, understand it on, like, whatever level they do, but even, like, being steeped in it a little bit, it’s just, like.
440 00:43:02.710 ⇒ 00:43:07.719 Samuel Roberts: okay, well, in a few months, like, you know, what was it today that just came out? Sora 2?
441 00:43:07.720 ⇒ 00:43:11.009 Uttam Kumaran: Sora 2 came out, and then Claude, new Claude model came out.
442 00:43:11.010 ⇒ 00:43:11.990 Samuel Roberts: odd model, I’m like, oh…
443 00:43:11.990 ⇒ 00:43:21.179 Uttam Kumaran: They do, they just, you know, they just added Cursor, Chrome, like, DevTools, MCP, so it can literally run Chrome and pull up all the browser logs.
444 00:43:21.180 ⇒ 00:43:25.999 Samuel Roberts: I had a custom thing installed to, like, click buttons and stuff and do testing, and I just never quite got it there, but if it.
445 00:43:26.000 ⇒ 00:43:32.789 Uttam Kumaran: Well, dude, basically what it’ll do is it’ll, like, you know, for me, the biggest thing was, like, you can just run end-to-end QA, like, even visual…
446 00:43:32.790 ⇒ 00:43:34.680 Samuel Roberts: That’s exactly what I was trying to do, yeah.
447 00:43:34.680 ⇒ 00:43:37.120 Uttam Kumaran: Because before, you had to send a screenshot of, like, what you…
448 00:43:37.490 ⇒ 00:43:38.010 Samuel Roberts: What a…
449 00:43:38.010 ⇒ 00:43:38.809 Uttam Kumaran: created, right?
450 00:43:39.280 ⇒ 00:43:39.800 Uttam Kumaran: hilarious.
451 00:43:39.800 ⇒ 00:43:42.619 Samuel Roberts: Yeah. No, of course not.
452 00:43:42.620 ⇒ 00:43:49.150 Uttam Kumaran: Also, like, that’s why I think, like, I think I… I have… I’m probably the only person that is equipped with, like.
453 00:43:49.610 ⇒ 00:43:53.790 Uttam Kumaran: What could be really innovative? Like, what we should try.
454 00:43:53.790 ⇒ 00:43:54.200 Samuel Roberts: Yeah.
455 00:43:54.200 ⇒ 00:44:05.220 Uttam Kumaran: like, that’s… and that’s why I think the AI strategy piece, like, I… I… like, the platform to date was all just, like, kind of, like, what we tried to… to start with, with these primitives of meetings and…
456 00:44:05.220 ⇒ 00:44:05.910 Samuel Roberts: Yeah, yeah, totally.
457 00:44:05.910 ⇒ 00:44:10.819 Uttam Kumaran: But, like, there’s such a ways we can go, but again, I didn’t… I feel like after I’ve…
458 00:44:11.190 ⇒ 00:44:14.869 Uttam Kumaran: I see… I kind of see that the actual… the limiting factor is
459 00:44:15.000 ⇒ 00:44:24.559 Uttam Kumaran: just the fact that I don’t think other people have the understanding of where to help them, and I think it’s a moment of, like, okay, we just probably shouldn’t…
460 00:44:24.720 ⇒ 00:44:28.409 Uttam Kumaran: Probably… Me, you, and the AI teams are just…
461 00:44:28.940 ⇒ 00:44:42.369 Uttam Kumaran: when we get more time to do that, and then we just ship it to people, because we know… I’m telling you, I know it’s gonna work for them, because we didn’t ask for any feedback on any of the stuff we built to date, really.
462 00:44:42.370 ⇒ 00:44:44.020 Samuel Roberts: No, no, I, yeah, I’ve seen that…
463 00:44:44.020 ⇒ 00:44:45.440 Uttam Kumaran: Requirements for me.
464 00:44:45.440 ⇒ 00:44:51.119 Samuel Roberts: Yeah, yeah, I was… I was just talking with Hannah about, like, the marketing assets page, which, like.
465 00:44:51.900 ⇒ 00:44:55.400 Samuel Roberts: She’s like, it’s hard to use in certain ways. I’m like, great, tell me more, like.
466 00:44:55.520 ⇒ 00:45:05.750 Samuel Roberts: And I was getting, like, feedback on that, and I played around with a few things real quick in cursor, but it’s just, like, there’s so many of those little things, it’s just, like, small, big friction, you know, whatever it is, like, small friction, big friction.
467 00:45:05.750 ⇒ 00:45:06.220 Uttam Kumaran: Exactly.
468 00:45:06.220 ⇒ 00:45:08.010 Samuel Roberts: It’s keeping people from, like.
469 00:45:08.470 ⇒ 00:45:13.649 Samuel Roberts: either using it in a really good way, or thinking about it in a really good way, you know?
470 00:45:13.650 ⇒ 00:45:14.110 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
471 00:45:14.110 ⇒ 00:45:15.350 Samuel Roberts: See what’s possible.
472 00:45:15.550 ⇒ 00:45:31.789 Uttam Kumaran: I just think I’m trying to buy back as much of my time, because for me, in the long run, I think I should… I should be helping on sales, I should be helping on recruiting, and then I should be helping on, sort of, the internal automations, basically. Yeah. And, like, that’s sort of, like…
473 00:45:32.100 ⇒ 00:45:35.210 Uttam Kumaran: The last, sort of, of the puzzle.
474 00:45:35.330 ⇒ 00:45:43.320 Uttam Kumaran: For me, to sort of, like, get myself out, but it’s… it’s fine. We’re always kind of, like, under these constraints anyway, so…
475 00:45:43.320 ⇒ 00:45:44.250 Samuel Roberts: Of course, of course.
476 00:45:44.250 ⇒ 00:45:45.090 Uttam Kumaran: now, but…
477 00:45:45.310 ⇒ 00:45:53.130 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I just think, like, when you crank the thing for a few weeks, like, we would get all… like, all these features we built really, really fast.
478 00:45:53.130 ⇒ 00:45:59.529 Samuel Roberts: Yeah, it’s not like that far away from us. Sometimes I’m, like, looking at it, and I’m like, oh, why is it like that? I’m like, oh, that was probably just the easiest.
479 00:45:59.530 ⇒ 00:46:09.900 Uttam Kumaran: So that’s kind of, like, why I told Rico, I was like, look, I think we should slim down the time we spend there, because I don’t want the team spinning wheels, but I think what we’ll try to do instead is, like.
480 00:46:10.260 ⇒ 00:46:26.219 Uttam Kumaran: the time we do spend will just be highly focused requirements from, like, me, basically, and we’ll try to just, like, I’ll just solve your problems on, like, what we should build and why, and we’ll maybe ship, like, one thing a week, and just try to… try to do that and dedicate more budget.
481 00:46:26.500 ⇒ 00:46:31.390 Samuel Roberts: That’s probably, yeah, like, focused work and, like, incremental improvement over that way.
482 00:46:31.390 ⇒ 00:46:32.150 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, because I’m like.
483 00:46:32.150 ⇒ 00:46:33.259 Samuel Roberts: adding… I’m like…
484 00:46:33.260 ⇒ 00:46:37.940 Uttam Kumaran: I only have, like, 5 or 10 hours to ship something, it better be worth it, you know?
485 00:46:37.940 ⇒ 00:46:39.110 Samuel Roberts: Right, right.
486 00:46:39.550 ⇒ 00:46:41.360 Samuel Roberts: Yeah, I’m… one of my…
487 00:46:41.560 ⇒ 00:46:53.189 Samuel Roberts: one of my tasks this week while we were finishing up some internal stuff was just, like, I… I hadn’t really dug into the, like, client hub SOP stuff. Yeah. But that’s a big piece that I’m like, this is a huge time sink every time, and…
488 00:46:53.190 ⇒ 00:46:53.800 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
489 00:46:54.240 ⇒ 00:47:00.119 Samuel Roberts: every time we add a new client, this has to happen. I’m like, we gotta… we gotta architect this better. But again…
490 00:47:00.120 ⇒ 00:47:05.380 Uttam Kumaran: There’s another, like, kind of primitive object where it’s all these activities associated with it, and…
491 00:47:05.380 ⇒ 00:47:06.660 Samuel Roberts: 100%, 100%.
492 00:47:06.660 ⇒ 00:47:11.420 Uttam Kumaran: even all of our… everything kind of links back to the client, like HubSpot operating, Notion.
493 00:47:11.420 ⇒ 00:47:11.830 Samuel Roberts: Yeah.
494 00:47:11.830 ⇒ 00:47:17.209 Uttam Kumaran: Clockify, Zoom meetings, attendees… Yeah.
495 00:47:17.210 ⇒ 00:47:34.950 Samuel Roberts: A lot of moving pieces for that particular thing, and I have a better sense for it now, and I diagrammed some stuff out of Mermaid to, like, better understand, like, how could this be streamlined a little bit? But there’s… even as you do that, I’m like, well, then we need, like, better syncing to HubSpot, and then we need, like, better syncing to Google for, like.
496 00:47:35.140 ⇒ 00:47:41.190 Samuel Roberts: you know, people and teammates, and like, I’m like, okay, what can we just do, you know?
497 00:47:41.500 ⇒ 00:47:44.829 Samuel Roberts: But yeah, I hear what you’re saying. Yeah, yeah.
498 00:47:46.090 ⇒ 00:47:46.960 Samuel Roberts: But yeah, please.
499 00:47:47.680 ⇒ 00:48:00.820 Uttam Kumaran: Okay. Okay, well, appreciate the feedback, that was really helpful. Yeah, if you have any thoughts on this while you’re thinking about it, let me know. Or if you… if you have anyone, you know, from… from a past life you think would be… would be interesting to talk to about it, let me know.
500 00:48:00.820 ⇒ 00:48:03.829 Samuel Roberts: Yeah, maybe, I’ll think about that a little bit.
501 00:48:04.290 ⇒ 00:48:11.520 Samuel Roberts: But yeah, this is interesting, I’ll read through that a little bit closer to the notion.
502 00:48:11.520 ⇒ 00:48:16.680 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, and again, like, I just think it would be helpful for… just keep following me
503 00:48:16.980 ⇒ 00:48:26.909 Uttam Kumaran: to see, like, how I’m trying to approach it. But it is a little bit of, like, part art, part… okay, I know our technical side really well, so I’m not, like, afraid to…
504 00:48:27.010 ⇒ 00:48:29.420 Uttam Kumaran: To comment on, like, what’s possible, you know?
505 00:48:29.420 ⇒ 00:48:30.630 Samuel Roberts: Yeah, yeah.
506 00:48:31.250 ⇒ 00:48:39.640 Samuel Roberts: Yeah, I saw that message the other day, was it, Mustafa, and you’re like, tell me if I’m, like, giving you too much stuff, and I’m like, what was it? I forget what the context was, even.
507 00:48:40.770 ⇒ 00:48:52.970 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I don’t know, I was like, well, I just don’t… sometimes I’m like, oh, like, okay, you should send it this way. I don’t, like… if I’m giving… if I’m, like, being too much of, like, a… a hovering parent, like, let me know.
508 00:48:52.970 ⇒ 00:48:53.899 Samuel Roberts: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
509 00:48:53.900 ⇒ 00:48:55.650 Uttam Kumaran: I’ll let you figure it out and go.
510 00:48:55.650 ⇒ 00:49:01.770 Samuel Roberts: Yeah, that’s such a delicate balance, too, especially as, like, CEO, where you say something and people are like, alright, cool.
511 00:49:01.770 ⇒ 00:49:07.529 Uttam Kumaran: I know, because I don’t wanna… I don’t wanna… I’m also typing something in 5 seconds, and that may result in, like, 5 hours of work.
512 00:49:07.530 ⇒ 00:49:10.830 Samuel Roberts: I totally… yes, I get that. I’ve been trying to be…
513 00:49:10.830 ⇒ 00:49:28.300 Uttam Kumaran: But also, for Mustafa, for example, one thing I was gonna put in the feedback form is, I told him he should trust his gut more, like, for the most part, he’s right. You know, and I think he’s really resourceful, but I think he’s also, like, he should just go for his gut and ship first.
514 00:49:28.480 ⇒ 00:49:32.719 Uttam Kumaran: Like, and then ask for feedback immediately, you know? Ask for multiple points of feedback.
515 00:49:32.720 ⇒ 00:49:52.219 Samuel Roberts: Yeah, that was, like, and honestly, like, the great example of that was the thing today, where, like, he… he tagged me, I was like, okay, I gotta… I gotta review it real quick, and I went through it, and honestly, the granola transcript is… was hard to read, not knowing who the me and them was sometimes, but as I’m digging through it, I’m like, oh, he kind of nailed, like, I’m sure him and ChatGPT back and forth, like, he got it, you know? Like…
516 00:49:52.520 ⇒ 00:49:56.159 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, exactly, and I didn’t make much changes, I just, like, moved the ordering a little bit.
517 00:49:56.160 ⇒ 00:49:56.940 Samuel Roberts: Yeah.
518 00:49:56.940 ⇒ 00:49:58.309 Uttam Kumaran: Remove some fluff.
519 00:49:58.550 ⇒ 00:50:07.689 Uttam Kumaran: And then I was like, yeah, this is pretty good, we should ship it. And actually, I… I didn’t even know, because I thought he had been working on the other stuff, so I’m glad, like, we’re making great progress. But again, like.
520 00:50:07.900 ⇒ 00:50:10.329 Uttam Kumaran: Even the other day, he sent me something at, like.
521 00:50:10.570 ⇒ 00:50:13.150 Uttam Kumaran: Didn’t get to it, so then it got delayed by 5 hours.
522 00:50:13.150 ⇒ 00:50:13.880 Samuel Roberts: Yep.
523 00:50:13.880 ⇒ 00:50:16.030 Uttam Kumaran: It was perfect, you should have just shipped it, and…
524 00:50:16.030 ⇒ 00:50:16.390 Samuel Roberts: Yeah.
525 00:50:16.390 ⇒ 00:50:19.850 Uttam Kumaran: I think for… For him, it’s just learning, like.
526 00:50:20.050 ⇒ 00:50:25.969 Uttam Kumaran: To trust your gut. Learning, like, when… when you are truly, like, nervous, you can ask for feedback.
527 00:50:26.340 ⇒ 00:50:26.960 Samuel Roberts: Yeah.
528 00:50:27.200 ⇒ 00:50:31.469 Uttam Kumaran: But also, like, I’m hopeful that he… this is where, like, I think we’re… because we’re a remote company, like.
529 00:50:31.580 ⇒ 00:50:36.660 Uttam Kumaran: anyone could have answered some questions, like… Henry or anyone, so I want to see how…
530 00:50:36.970 ⇒ 00:50:41.440 Uttam Kumaran: we build connections across the organization, that way I’m… like…
531 00:50:41.680 ⇒ 00:50:48.629 Uttam Kumaran: They should just… there’s more, like, people or friends across the org who can ask for advice or feedback on things, so…
532 00:50:48.900 ⇒ 00:50:50.150 Samuel Roberts: Totally, yeah, yeah, yeah.
533 00:50:52.120 ⇒ 00:50:55.329 Uttam Kumaran: Okay. Cool, dude. Alright, I’ll let you go. Appreciate it.
534 00:50:55.330 ⇒ 00:50:59.250 Samuel Roberts: Alrighty. Yeah, no, this is good. This is really… this is great.
535 00:50:59.250 ⇒ 00:50:59.660 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
536 00:50:59.660 ⇒ 00:51:00.559 Samuel Roberts: Thank you for the time.
537 00:51:01.290 ⇒ 00:51:02.920 Uttam Kumaran: Okay. Thanks, man.
538 00:51:02.920 ⇒ 00:51:05.339 Samuel Roberts: Yeah, have a great night. Yep. Bye.