Meeting Title: BF <> Henry Check-In Date: 2025-09-30 Meeting participants: Uttam Kumaran, Robert Tseng, Henry Zhao
WEBVTT
1 00:01:53.630 ⇒ 00:01:54.640 Robert Tseng: 8.
2 00:01:56.740 ⇒ 00:01:58.410 Uttam Kumaran: Hey, dude.
3 00:01:58.640 ⇒ 00:02:00.480 Robert Tseng: Thanks for helping on this,
4 00:02:00.480 ⇒ 00:02:01.090 Uttam Kumaran: Oh, you’re good.
5 00:02:02.700 ⇒ 00:02:03.650 Uttam Kumaran: All good.
6 00:02:05.470 ⇒ 00:02:08.909 Robert Tseng: I’m almost done. I’m gonna send it right after this… after this call.
7 00:02:09.410 ⇒ 00:02:10.619 Henry Zhao: Hey guys, how’s it going?
8 00:02:10.759 ⇒ 00:02:12.709 Uttam Kumaran: Hey, good, how are you?
9 00:02:13.080 ⇒ 00:02:13.780 Henry Zhao: Good.
10 00:02:17.440 ⇒ 00:02:26.119 Robert Tseng: Well, I guess I kind of called this meeting, but, yeah, I mean, I kind of gave you the lead-in already. We were trying to get the schedule done last week,
11 00:02:26.370 ⇒ 00:02:40.970 Robert Tseng: I know, Henry, you’ve been… actually, the weeks go by so quickly. It feels like you’ve been here for a lot longer. I feel like it’s been almost 2 months, but I’m not really sure. So, yeah, I mean, I guess we, you know, kind of…
12 00:02:41.070 ⇒ 00:02:51.719 Robert Tseng: going back to what we said with Slack, like, obviously we want to kind of extend you and have you around for full-time as well. I think we were kind of just thinking about, like, what are…
13 00:02:51.950 ⇒ 00:02:52.880 Robert Tseng: Yeah, like…
14 00:02:54.200 ⇒ 00:03:02.300 Robert Tseng: Basically, like, what incentives do we need to have in place for you to kind of step into a more, like, a bigger role here?
15 00:03:02.600 ⇒ 00:03:16.280 Robert Tseng: So, I was hoping that we could spend some time, I don’t know if you put any thought into kind of the ideas that we put out there. We’ve also kind of, like, talked more about it, so I think this is still kind of just… we’re just penciling things in, and yeah, like, there’s obviously…
16 00:03:16.280 ⇒ 00:03:22.830 Robert Tseng: you know, we want to get your input on it as well, and yeah, so I think that’d be helpful for us to know on this call.
17 00:03:23.660 ⇒ 00:03:33.940 Henry Zhao: Yeah, I think we talked about it in Chicago, I think, if you bring me on full-time, I’ll be able to handle a lot more responsibilities, like, even if it’s, like, some tedious work, or, like, maintaining…
18 00:03:34.090 ⇒ 00:03:48.179 Henry Zhao: data, like, just basically, you can put everything on my plate, because I think I’ll be able to handle it once I’m onboarded, right? So, now that I’ve onboarded, I understand the dbt models, I understand, kind of, how Eden works, at least.
19 00:03:49.030 ⇒ 00:03:54.860 Henry Zhao: How… how the team communicates, you know, I think I’m ready for that… for that next step, you know what I mean?
20 00:03:55.260 ⇒ 00:03:55.910 Robert Tseng: Yeah.
21 00:03:56.290 ⇒ 00:04:02.649 Robert Tseng: Okay, cool. And then, Ujam, I don’t know, like, I guess if you have anything you want to kind of jump in and say as well.
22 00:04:02.650 ⇒ 00:04:05.789 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I think the biggest thing for me is where…
23 00:04:05.980 ⇒ 00:04:12.880 Uttam Kumaran: We’re continuing to talk about, like, how we can break the classic expectations of, like.
24 00:04:12.980 ⇒ 00:04:26.229 Uttam Kumaran: an agency where you have, really, people that are in super well-defined roles. That’s not to be said that everybody is the same role, but what that means is that we want to move away from
25 00:04:26.410 ⇒ 00:04:33.190 Uttam Kumaran: like, I’m just a data engineer, I’m just the AE, and I want to move to, like,
26 00:04:33.340 ⇒ 00:04:37.210 Uttam Kumaran: People that are more fluid, less people overall per client.
27 00:04:37.210 ⇒ 00:04:37.660 Henry Zhao: Right.
28 00:04:37.660 ⇒ 00:04:44.060 Uttam Kumaran: And, naturally, people graduate towards strategy, and more strategic guidance for a client.
29 00:04:44.430 ⇒ 00:05:02.169 Uttam Kumaran: One thing that we’ve noticed is that we’ve tried to bring on people that have fit a mold, because we’re like, hey, we need DE work, so let’s bring on a data engineer, but the moment that they get asked to do anything beyond, they typically, like, throw their hands up. You’re not like that, and there are people on the team today that are not like that.
30 00:05:02.210 ⇒ 00:05:18.419 Uttam Kumaran: that type of person I described, there’s no longer going to be a place for them at the company, and I want the value to accrue towards folks like you, who can start by just being a Swiss Army knife across a couple different disciplines, and of course, you have expertise.
31 00:05:18.420 ⇒ 00:05:23.699 Uttam Kumaran: But also, we want there to be a clear path for you to move from just being an engineer to actually
32 00:05:23.700 ⇒ 00:05:32.969 Uttam Kumaran: starting to lead, like, strategy, find, like, new opportunities within the client, and start to own the relationship with the client. So that’s how we want
33 00:05:32.980 ⇒ 00:05:40.999 Uttam Kumaran: sort of, like, engineers, or people who were classically fit into just engineers, to want to move broadly. So, in terms of, like.
34 00:05:41.290 ⇒ 00:06:00.950 Uttam Kumaran: what we’re thinking about in terms of performance, I think we’ve discussed with people on the team about potentially getting variable compensation for upsells, for renewals. Additionally, if you were to bring in business in the company, there’s already always going to be money for that. But we want to make sure that
35 00:06:00.980 ⇒ 00:06:06.329 Uttam Kumaran: For the clients that you affect, if you are in, sort of, a more of a strat… like.
36 00:06:06.710 ⇒ 00:06:24.999 Uttam Kumaran: strategic, role, what we’re kind of deeming like a strategist, you get to benefit from that upside. So if you are on the team that goes and finds another opportunity within a client, that you benefit from that, and that’s baked into sort of your OTE for your comp. Similarly.
37 00:06:25.000 ⇒ 00:06:30.750 Uttam Kumaran: If a client renews, there is obviously gonna be some kickback for that. So that’s kind of, like.
38 00:06:30.900 ⇒ 00:06:46.469 Uttam Kumaran: roughly how we’re thinking, and… and again, for the future of the company, the people that we’re gonna bring on are gonna be more closely aligned to your background than they have been towards people that just come in and do one job. It’s gonna be very hard to hire for those people.
39 00:06:46.470 ⇒ 00:06:56.740 Uttam Kumaran: And that’s, like, my task to go figure out how do we get those people, but we are gonna start to say no to people that only can come on and do one thing.
40 00:06:57.170 ⇒ 00:06:59.289 Henry Zhao: Unless we need them for something, right?
41 00:06:59.290 ⇒ 00:07:13.340 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, there are gonna be people floating… I could always get someone for 5 hours to do one thing. That’s whatever. Okay. But, like, meaning we’re not gonna bring those on in a… bring those people on, and invest in them, and certainly they’re not gonna have access to, like.
42 00:07:13.500 ⇒ 00:07:18.100 Uttam Kumaran: This, like, variable program that we wanna… we wanna put in… put in process, you know?
43 00:07:18.450 ⇒ 00:07:30.369 Henry Zhao: Yeah, and I was telling Robert in Chicago that, you know, my next step would also be, you know, helping with the sales process and, like, helping also bring new sets of skills to things that we can sell to clients, you know what I mean?
44 00:07:30.370 ⇒ 00:07:43.329 Henry Zhao: So, like, we don’t have to just… I mean, I know sometimes Robert wants to focus on, like, being strong and having templates on certain things, but I also… if you guys want to expand and, like, offer other services, I think, you know, that is… that opportunity is also there.
45 00:07:43.970 ⇒ 00:08:03.779 Robert Tseng: Yeah, so, I mean, like, in response to that, after our conversation, so I kind of added you and a couple other people to this, like, monthly brain trust thing on Wednesdays now. I mean, we can shift the cadence of that, but that’s really just to be like, here’s all the services that are… we’re actively running, and, like, that’s your opportunity to come and kind of pitch… pitch new services.
46 00:08:03.780 ⇒ 00:08:26.499 Robert Tseng: I know you have, like, kind of a stats background, and you’re interested in fintech, and that’s maybe an industry you want to break into. Other people here kind of have more entertainment interests, but like, why are we not working with any media companies? So, like, I think that’s kind of, like, the forum that I would like to, which, you know, obviously we’re bringing in experts from different disciplines, and they all have, like, kind of their… their, like, kind of biases, like.
47 00:08:26.500 ⇒ 00:08:46.830 Robert Tseng: our business looks the way it does today, CPG and SaaS, because that’s Utam and Mai’s background, you know, so that’s why it’s 50-50 CPG and SaaS, pretty much. So, I mean, I think the more that we bring other people into it, like, the business is going to look different, and I think we’re definitely open to that. And then as far as, like, kind of bringing to the sales process, like.
48 00:08:46.850 ⇒ 00:09:11.470 Robert Tseng: I, you know, I talked about, like, yeah, I mean, I would want you to be able to kind of participate in that. I know I just threw you onto this doc that we’re working on, so I want to, like, slowly trickle in more, like, kind of pitches that we’re doing. You know, I think I’ll let you kind of decide, like, which channels we want to open up to you to, like, not overwhelm you, but, you know, I’d like you to kind of see, you know, have more access to seeing broadly what we’re doing across the business.
49 00:09:11.780 ⇒ 00:09:18.970 Robert Tseng: And particularly, like, one… one specific follow-up I already made was the Centauro guy, the guy who wrote… Oh, yeah.
50 00:09:19.320 ⇒ 00:09:38.130 Robert Tseng: yeah, I already… I reconnect with him, introduced you, I told him that you’re, you know, you’re a… you’re a local South Sao Paulo dude, and he’s like, great, so he wants… he wants… he’s down for the intro, so I’m gonna make that intro, and we’re… that… that’s… that’s a… that’s an active lead with your name on it, and we’re gonna… we’re gonna see what we can do with that.
51 00:09:38.250 ⇒ 00:09:47.119 Robert Tseng: Yeah, that’s awesome. So, like, so yeah, so I think there are, like, cool things that we’re able to, you know, adjustments that I’ve already been trying to make after our conversation.
52 00:09:47.120 ⇒ 00:10:02.450 Robert Tseng: So yeah, I think it’s really just making sure that the comp… comp structure that we have for you kind of, is… kind of fits kind of this next phase that we’re… that we’re looking forward to… to seeing you step into. So,
53 00:10:02.450 ⇒ 00:10:06.379 Robert Tseng: yeah, I guess, like, to kind of drill into the question specifically.
54 00:10:06.380 ⇒ 00:10:29.139 Robert Tseng: whether or not full-time means sticking with billable hour, or do you want to do flat rate? I think if we do… kind of to Utam’s point, if you stuck with billable, then, like, I think there’s not really much… there’s, like, that’s not really going to be variable. I think, like, if we’re able to do a flat, and then with higher… higher variable, I think then we can give you, like, a bigger range. That’s kind of the way that we see it.
55 00:10:29.430 ⇒ 00:10:35.519 Robert Tseng: And then I think we already cut… yeah, maybe we’ll just kind of… just try to just talk about that first.
56 00:10:35.520 ⇒ 00:10:36.080 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
57 00:10:37.010 ⇒ 00:10:47.970 Henry Zhao: Yeah, I think it was time you said you were gonna come back to me with a number in terms of, like, what that flat rate would look like versus what the billable… continuing at billable would… would look like. Yeah, and then I can make a decision from there.
58 00:10:48.650 ⇒ 00:10:53.949 Uttam Kumaran: Okay, we can do that. I mean, I want to give you… also, kind of get a sense of, like, what you think
59 00:10:54.520 ⇒ 00:11:09.560 Uttam Kumaran: again, here’s, like, here’s what the benefit is. One is, like, right now you’re at about 80… you’re at 80 bucks an hour, I believe. Like, what our… what basically our proposal would consist of is, one, like, on a flat rate given 40, the net
60 00:11:09.560 ⇒ 00:11:20.309 Uttam Kumaran: if you were to just have no variable, it would come in at a lower hourly. I think that’s… I’m sure that’s probably what your assumption is, but the variable upside would be a lot higher.
61 00:11:20.310 ⇒ 00:11:32.910 Uttam Kumaran: Meaning, for the clients that you’re on when they renew, and given your role is in more of a strategic role, there’s gonna be a percentage of the renewal value that goes to you. Additionally, if you are to source
62 00:11:33.330 ⇒ 00:11:46.559 Uttam Kumaran: like, opportunity, and we can, like, I don’t think we have so much of that, and also, Robert and I are the only people doing that, so I want to make sure that there is something aligned where if you are in a client, and you meet
63 00:11:46.560 ⇒ 00:11:56.610 Uttam Kumaran: Joe Schmoe, and you’re like, hey, Joe, we can do this for you, and he’s like, yeah, let’s do it, and you come to that, you’re gonna get a piece of that. Today, we basically said, like.
64 00:11:56.610 ⇒ 00:12:09.470 Uttam Kumaran: 5% or so of, like, the incremental value. So I can arrange, sort of, what those numbers are, and we can run through a couple scenarios. And, like, we don’t have too much of a mind right now on, like, caps.
65 00:12:09.690 ⇒ 00:12:23.640 Uttam Kumaran: Like, I want to make it really clear to you that we are a big, like, upside-forward group, where if you go and source additional business, that… that is a… that is a net positive, and that is our objective.
66 00:12:23.710 ⇒ 00:12:40.790 Uttam Kumaran: And I want you to benefit from that. Like, on Eden, for example, if you’re able to go get us another 5 grand, because there’s another opportunity, we can increase scope, that’s perfect. We’re also going to offer this same thing to all of our PMs. But we’re also not going to offer this to just the random engineer that’s on a project.
67 00:12:40.790 ⇒ 00:12:41.290 Henry Zhao: Yeah.
68 00:12:41.290 ⇒ 00:12:56.679 Uttam Kumaran: that person is not going to benefit from being able to say… being able to actually get asked to do that, and also, like, that’s not going to be part of their comp, and we’re not going to invest in them into sort of moving them into this type of role. You know, so, like.
69 00:12:56.680 ⇒ 00:13:13.229 Uttam Kumaran: I can put together what exactly those numbers are, and give you, like, what our variable is gonna be for those two categories. And then roughly, like, we also just have, like, new logo referrals as well. So if you’re to… if you’re just around, and you have clients that you want to bring in, I think Robert, probably the…
70 00:13:13.340 ⇒ 00:13:24.599 Uttam Kumaran: thing for us to think about is, like, if people internally assist on a deal, like, if you… the… the… whatever you mention, like, how do we want to do that? Like, I don’t know if you have a…
71 00:13:25.450 ⇒ 00:13:30.490 Uttam Kumaran: thought on that. I mean, right now, we’re the AEs on all deals.
72 00:13:30.590 ⇒ 00:13:33.450 Uttam Kumaran: So… I guess I’m
73 00:13:33.980 ⇒ 00:13:40.470 Uttam Kumaran: I would say, like, assisting on a dock and, like, putting in a new line, I don’t know. It’s like, that seems like…
74 00:13:41.010 ⇒ 00:13:52.380 Uttam Kumaran: we’re just asking for help from people internally, but again, I would like it to be more formal, where if you are to assist in the sales process on a deal, that you… there is a… there is an assist.
75 00:13:52.790 ⇒ 00:13:54.089 Uttam Kumaran: you know, bonus or something.
76 00:13:54.090 ⇒ 00:14:01.159 Robert Tseng: Yeah, well, I mean, for that example, let’s say, like, there’s different pieces. We know all the different kind of steps to, like, a call now, or, like, a deal now, so…
77 00:14:01.160 ⇒ 00:14:16.099 Robert Tseng: you know, if… if, you know, you’re… if you make the intro call, I think that’s… that’s like, you know, there’s… there must be some credit assigned there. If you’re running the demo, like, let’s say you’re functioning more like a sales engineering… sales engineer, like Centaro, for example, they’re a Brazilian company, they speak Portuguese, like.
78 00:14:16.100 ⇒ 00:14:22.609 Robert Tseng: if you were to go and do, like, like a demo, like, you know, speaking in Portuguese, like, you know, you should be credit… getting credit for that.
79 00:14:22.610 ⇒ 00:14:27.150 Robert Tseng: Or, if you’re just like, hey, like, they need, they need, a lead needs, like.
80 00:14:27.150 ⇒ 00:14:50.559 Robert Tseng: a sign of approval. You happen to be, like, that trusted person. They’re like, hey, if Henry says, like, the Rain Forge team is good, then we’ll sign, and you’re just the closer, you come in, and you’re just like, yeah, you know, guys, do this deal. Like, I think there should be credit there. So, like, to me, there’s, like, a couple key milestones, whether it’s the initial touchpoint, or, like, kind of the demo, or, like, the close that, like, you should get credit for on, like, an actual assist.
81 00:14:50.560 ⇒ 00:14:53.599 Robert Tseng: Obviously, like, everything else in between is kind of just, like.
82 00:14:53.680 ⇒ 00:14:57.670 Robert Tseng: passing… passing stuff around that’s, like, I think less, like.
83 00:14:57.850 ⇒ 00:15:04.900 Robert Tseng: I don’t know, less attributable, but that, to me, is kind of how I think about, being able to share credit with people that are contributing on deals.
84 00:15:05.170 ⇒ 00:15:09.780 Henry Zhao: Yeah, I think one thing I’d just like to know more about later, not… doesn’t have to be today, but, like.
85 00:15:09.890 ⇒ 00:15:17.989 Henry Zhao: what are the contracts, and what are considered upsells, right? Like, so the stuff we’re doing for Edge Layer, server-side tracking with Zuran, that should probably be considered an upsell, right? Because…
86 00:15:18.590 ⇒ 00:15:28.739 Henry Zhao: that’s a lot of additional effort that we’re putting into something that is gonna have a good impact on their business, and I don’t know if that was something that you guys had agreed upon, you know, when you guys signed the contract with Eden, right? So…
87 00:15:28.740 ⇒ 00:15:36.410 Robert Tseng: Yeah, so I think Eden, that’s a good one, because Eden, they don’t… they don’t really do, like, renewals with us. They’re just like, whatever, like, we’re just paying you, whatever. So, like…
88 00:15:36.410 ⇒ 00:15:37.000 Henry Zhao: Yeah.
89 00:15:37.000 ⇒ 00:15:38.249 Robert Tseng: It’s… it’s just…
90 00:15:38.260 ⇒ 00:15:56.180 Robert Tseng: there’s not really, like, a defined, like, upsell time. Like, I think it’s always, like, possibilities to upsell. So, like, for the Zoran work, but then, like, the trouble with Eden is, because they’re already giving us, like, a budget, sometimes, like, you know, if we’re not, like, advocating enough for our work, what they’re gonna say with the Zoran situation is, like.
91 00:15:56.180 ⇒ 00:16:15.669 Robert Tseng: okay, great, like, Zoran’s work is great, but I want you to slow everything else down. That’s not really an expansion to me, right? But if we can keep kind of telling them, like, no, Zoran’s work is incrementally, like, 10 to 15 hours more. Like, that’s what I’m pushing Amber to make… you know, I’m saying this to her every week, but she’s not able to give me, like.
92 00:16:15.670 ⇒ 00:16:19.650 Robert Tseng: the case for that. But, like, you could. You could be like, Robert, like, hey.
93 00:16:19.830 ⇒ 00:16:31.100 Robert Tseng: Soran’s work is incrementally, like, 10 to 15 hours more. We need to go and get another, like, 5K to 10K a month more budget in order to keep him around. Then I’ll work with you. I’ll be like, yeah, that makes sense, like.
94 00:16:31.100 ⇒ 00:16:42.569 Robert Tseng: they fired the factional CTO because we basically took over his job. We should be getting his budget. So, like, I’ve been saying that that’s an easy, low-hanging fruit way to kind of get another 5K to $10K a month out of Eden.
95 00:16:42.950 ⇒ 00:16:56.860 Robert Tseng: you know, but we just, you know, the team just hasn’t made… helped me make that case. But, like, if you actually went and you… and you finally just did that, like, I… like, I want that, like, I want to help you go… go… go get that. I want to give you credit for that, yeah.
96 00:16:57.520 ⇒ 00:17:10.579 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, so it has to be on… it has to be on incremental dollars in. Yeah. So you… because you’ll already… if Eden renews, you’ll… there’ll be some kick for that anyways. Yeah. But it can’t be just a shift of resources, at this point.
97 00:17:10.589 ⇒ 00:17:11.279 Henry Zhao: Yeah, of course, yeah.
98 00:17:11.280 ⇒ 00:17:12.150 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, yeah.
99 00:17:12.540 ⇒ 00:17:36.279 Robert Tseng: And the Eden Renewal, it’s like, okay, well, even if they’re not formally renewing with us, like, because they’re just kind of consistently going after it, we can set, like, a 6-month or whatever, like, quarterly cadence where that counts as renewal if they’re with us for another, like, extension of, like, 3 to 6 months, and we just kind of bake it into that. So we’ll just have to decide on what that looks like. I think 6 months seems to be, like, more reasonable, given, like, kind of their tenure with us, but, like.
100 00:17:36.460 ⇒ 00:17:37.870 Henry Zhao: So, it’s like…
101 00:17:37.890 ⇒ 00:17:53.399 Robert Tseng: Henry’s been on the project, and then, you know, 3 months in, they stick with us for another 6 months, like, you should be getting a chuck of that. Like, that’s how I think about clients that are not really in, like, a 3-month sprint with us, but are just kind of working with us for.
102 00:17:54.020 ⇒ 00:17:55.140 Robert Tseng: You know, indefinitely.
103 00:17:55.770 ⇒ 00:17:56.370 Henry Zhao: Yeah.
104 00:17:56.600 ⇒ 00:17:57.230 Robert Tseng: Yeah.
105 00:17:59.430 ⇒ 00:18:16.389 Robert Tseng: Okay, cool. So, it sounds like we’re gonna put some numbers in front of you, just kind of give you, like, kind of what that looks like, and you’ll decide. I was, like, looking around for a link to kind of basically show you. There are, like, other firms that are kind of, like, doing, kind of, trying to think about variable comp, and I thought it was hilarious. Like, there’s this one…
106 00:18:16.590 ⇒ 00:18:19.840 Robert Tseng: like, big LinkedIn influencer guy who’s, like.
107 00:18:19.910 ⇒ 00:18:36.569 Robert Tseng: oh yeah, lead AI strategist, like, starting… starting… starts at 100K, and then, like, ceiling is at 500K. It’s like a 400K delta, because he’s just like, oh yeah, well, whatever, like, that’s your base, and then there’s all… I don’t know how the variable comp works, but, like.
108 00:18:36.570 ⇒ 00:18:41.790 Robert Tseng: you know, I don’t know what kind of people that attracts, but, like, you know, if you’re, like, really…
109 00:18:41.970 ⇒ 00:18:56.719 Robert Tseng: I guess if you’re really, like, set on, like, having a lower, like, a higher base, then you’re not gonna go for that. But if you’re like, yeah, I’m gonna be that guy that gets the 500K, like, then I think you would go for it. So, I don’t think what we’re doing is as dramatic as what he’s doing, I think…
110 00:18:56.820 ⇒ 00:19:02.230 Robert Tseng: But… so I don’t… but I think that’s… I think that’s something that I was, like, looking to when I was… when we were.
111 00:19:02.230 ⇒ 00:19:09.190 Uttam Kumaran: But I also want to attract those types of people. I want to attract people that call their shots, win, and then want to win big.
112 00:19:09.260 ⇒ 00:19:24.939 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah. That’s who we are, and, like, that’s the people I want. I want… it shouldn’t come as a surprise that you may have a little bit of a lower base, but huge upside. Because, like, some people think of a glass half full versus glass half empty.
113 00:19:25.150 ⇒ 00:19:28.719 Uttam Kumaran: I wish the companies I was at before would offer me that. I would have gone.
114 00:19:28.720 ⇒ 00:19:29.410 Robert Tseng: Oh, yeah.
115 00:19:29.410 ⇒ 00:19:29.780 Uttam Kumaran: I shouldn’.
116 00:19:29.780 ⇒ 00:19:31.150 Robert Tseng: Express.
117 00:19:31.150 ⇒ 00:19:41.849 Uttam Kumaran: Some people will look at that and will have fear, like, oh my god, maybe I… what if I don’t get it? You’re probably not gonna get it, then, if you’re, like, that… for that not confident, right? And so…
118 00:19:42.080 ⇒ 00:19:48.029 Uttam Kumaran: I think part of, like, my… what I hear in my brain is, like, I get worried that, like.
119 00:19:48.030 ⇒ 00:20:11.399 Uttam Kumaran: okay, is this unfair to our people? But I’m actually, like, dude, I wish nobody gave me this as an engineer. Typically, the only people that get variable comp are salespeople, and then potentially sales engineers, and then maybe the project managers, but also it’s like an annual bonus, it’s not directly tied to stuff. Like, we want to throw that out the door. I want to have a group of people that call their shot, can make more, naturally, when the company makes more.
120 00:20:11.400 ⇒ 00:20:23.049 Uttam Kumaran: We have clear ties into the couple of activities, the renewal, the upsell, and the net new business. This is very easy to understand where the money’s coming from, and I want the people who are directly affecting that
121 00:20:23.050 ⇒ 00:20:41.849 Uttam Kumaran: to benefit from it, and I want people every day while they’re working on a client to go after it, because it naturally removes us having to sell additional business, and we already have sold a lot of business to the clients, right? So generally, if you can mitigate the churn, which we’ve baked in at, like, around 15%, that’s free money. Second.
122 00:20:41.850 ⇒ 00:20:50.719 Uttam Kumaran: There’s… if we can… if the delivery team themselves can sell additional business, that’s time from us that isn’t already going there, and that’s, like, additional money.
123 00:20:50.720 ⇒ 00:20:57.249 Uttam Kumaran: So, like, it’s… I think it’s a great win-win, and naturally, this is just gonna be a harder place to work for the average person.
124 00:20:57.290 ⇒ 00:20:58.090 Uttam Kumaran: like…
125 00:20:58.090 ⇒ 00:20:59.789 Henry Zhao: Which is good, yeah.
126 00:21:00.240 ⇒ 00:21:02.470 Uttam Kumaran: That’s how… that’s roughly how I feel.
127 00:21:02.630 ⇒ 00:21:03.250 Henry Zhao: Yeah.
128 00:21:04.920 ⇒ 00:21:20.490 Robert Tseng: Okay, cool. So, I mean, yeah, sounds like we’re kind of all kind of thinking along the same lines here. I know we had two other questions that I threw out there, so you talked about, like, you know, Henry, you started off the call being like, oh yeah, like, if I come on full-time, you’ll get more out of me, so I kind of want to add some more, kind of, like.
129 00:21:20.570 ⇒ 00:21:35.159 Robert Tseng: you know, when you route that? So, like, actually, no, I don’t want you to just, like, do more maintenance work, so I know you kind of, like, dribbled that in. Like, you’re not… I don’t want you to spend more time on Eden, like, we don’t need you to be doing necessarily more, like, billable hours for… per client.
130 00:21:35.160 ⇒ 00:21:41.190 Robert Tseng: Like, whether or not we even want you to do, like, a third or fourth client is, like, questionable. Like, I think…
131 00:21:41.190 ⇒ 00:21:50.510 Robert Tseng: that’s probably not the best use of your time. If you’re already on Eden and default and kind of keeping those running, that’s great. But where you could impact more new client delivery is, let’s say, like.
132 00:21:50.510 ⇒ 00:22:14.470 Robert Tseng: you’re good at, like, starting with a new client, and you end up being, like, the person who goes in and starts the new client, then, like, that could be a way that you continue to impact the business on the delivery side. But let’s say maybe you’re, you know, you’re better at, like, someone else go figure out all the chaos and then hand it to me, kind of like what we did on the Eden side, where it’s more on, like, default, you kind of got the taste of the startup. So we can kind of figure out, like, what stage of client that you feel
133 00:22:14.540 ⇒ 00:22:27.359 Robert Tseng: like, if you were to kind of be more, like, an elite role and just kind of go and help kind of the team, like, where… at what stage you would want to be brought in? I think that’s like a… that’s a… that’s a way for us to kind of think about, like.
134 00:22:27.850 ⇒ 00:22:46.570 Robert Tseng: you as, like, an internal delivery leader, like, where to kind of be able to deploy you, as, like, kind of like a Swiss Army knife, like we done is saying. And then, obviously, on the business development side is kind of, like, where we would want to, you know, have you contribute to. So, like, I, yeah, so, like, I think those are really the only two.
135 00:22:46.570 ⇒ 00:23:01.219 Robert Tseng: you know, like, this business is not that complicated. Like, it’s, like Utop said, we’re either bringing in new dollar, or you’re… or you’re retaining new retaining dollar. So, like, you’re kind of either going to impact one or either or of those, like, levers in some way in order… if you’re going to see your role expand.
136 00:23:01.700 ⇒ 00:23:05.860 Henry Zhao: Yeah, and I can’t drill in not like I want to be doing, like, menial work or anything like that.
137 00:23:05.860 ⇒ 00:23:06.280 Robert Tseng: Yeah.
138 00:23:06.280 ⇒ 00:23:09.790 Henry Zhao: It’s like wearing more hats so that those ideas can come, right?
139 00:23:09.790 ⇒ 00:23:10.170 Robert Tseng: Yeah.
140 00:23:10.170 ⇒ 00:23:27.960 Henry Zhao: you wear more hats when you look at the operations side, then you do something with CSAT, then you do something with NPS, then you do something with how the operations is running, you kind of see how the machine is running, and you get ideas of, this would run so much smoother if we, you know, connected this, or if we improved this part of the process, you know what I mean?
141 00:23:28.260 ⇒ 00:23:29.760 Robert Tseng: Totally. Yeah.
142 00:23:30.070 ⇒ 00:23:30.500 Henry Zhao: That’s all I’m.
143 00:23:30.500 ⇒ 00:23:35.390 Robert Tseng: Okay, okay, yeah, no, I mean, okay, thanks for clarifying that.
144 00:23:35.710 ⇒ 00:23:46.279 Robert Tseng: Yeah, so I think we can… I think that’s… that’s my… that might not be, like, something we… we’re not gonna write you the job description. I kind of feel like you need to help manage up, you know, once you’re full-time, I think we will…
145 00:23:46.560 ⇒ 00:23:54.470 Robert Tseng: I mean, like, yeah, obviously we spend more time with our core, kind of, full-time people, so I think, like, we will want to definitely, you know, be closely
146 00:23:54.470 ⇒ 00:24:09.459 Robert Tseng: in touch with you, like, as, you know, as you give feedback, you can see that we’re taking action immediately. So, like, I think this is just something that’ll kind of show itself over time, but, like, I’m just letting you know, if we were to push more things your way, it’s gonna either be, like, it’s gonna be in one of those directions, so hopefully we.
147 00:24:09.460 ⇒ 00:24:10.360 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, and then the other
148 00:24:10.480 ⇒ 00:24:14.810 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, the other thing is also, I want to start to think about, like, some of those
149 00:24:14.850 ⇒ 00:24:32.450 Uttam Kumaran: looking at your work and, like, doing the 80-20 on the work that’s really basic, but that’s taking a lot of time, and handing it off to either the cheaper or more junior or both team members, right? Like, for you, in the leverage role we want to put you in, you need to come in, figure it out, and then hand it off.
150 00:24:32.450 ⇒ 00:24:46.609 Uttam Kumaran: Right? On all of your clients, there are going to be people who are more junior, and this is where we’re sort of thinking about, like, engineer, strategist, PM. I think, naturally, the PMs or the engineers can transition into, like.
151 00:24:46.620 ⇒ 00:24:52.730 Uttam Kumaran: This sort of strategist-like person, but they are the people that get delegated the busy work.
152 00:24:52.730 ⇒ 00:25:05.920 Uttam Kumaran: PMs are gonna get delegated, book this calendar meeting, figure out the tickets, blah blah blah. Engineers are gonna get delegated the, do the thing. There’s still so much work, though, that has to happen in building the client relationship, identifying the next thing.
153 00:25:05.920 ⇒ 00:25:14.440 Uttam Kumaran: putting together the presentation, being the person that the client trusts. Neither of those roles on either side are, like, uniquely
154 00:25:14.580 ⇒ 00:25:19.860 Uttam Kumaran: going to be able to do that. If they could, they would be the strategy role, you know? Yeah.
155 00:25:19.860 ⇒ 00:25:26.060 Henry Zhao: I just don’t like leaders or people in a strategy position where they kind of, like, don’t know what they’re talking about because they don’t…
156 00:25:26.060 ⇒ 00:25:26.500 Uttam Kumaran: Totally.
157 00:25:26.500 ⇒ 00:25:28.219 Henry Zhao: Touch in the weeds, you know what I mean?
158 00:25:28.220 ⇒ 00:25:31.269 Uttam Kumaran: So that’s why everybody has to transition from one of those areas.
159 00:25:31.560 ⇒ 00:25:34.429 Henry Zhao: I learned this matrix, you know, at my MBA, and like…
160 00:25:34.430 ⇒ 00:25:38.779 Uttam Kumaran: No, no, no, you can’t… there’s no, like, entering into strategy without coming from those directions.
161 00:25:39.140 ⇒ 00:25:40.209 Uttam Kumaran: I frankly think…
162 00:25:40.210 ⇒ 00:25:40.790 Henry Zhao: Yeah, yeah.
163 00:25:40.790 ⇒ 00:25:57.490 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, it’s gonna be… and also, both of us were… like, all of us on the call were in the weeds doing this work. I can’t… I can’t do any… the project management and the… the stuff, that’s all, like, learned behavior. And so, this is where I think it’s gonna be more challenging for our PMs to get there, because
164 00:25:57.890 ⇒ 00:26:08.710 Uttam Kumaran: naturally, like, they’re more on the business side, but the technical people, you just have to learn how to, like, craft the narrative and the story. But also, again, maybe challenging for them. Either way, like, we have to find…
165 00:26:08.710 ⇒ 00:26:20.250 Uttam Kumaran: more of these, like, people that can wear multiple hats and can sit in, like, that strategy role and bring authority and bring confidence, and that confidence has to come from experience. So, you can’t… there’s no way you can…
166 00:26:20.360 ⇒ 00:26:35.109 Uttam Kumaran: there’s, like, we’re not looking for, like, NBA-style, like, strategy in terms of, like, I put through this whole deck, and it all seems, like, AI-generated. Like, that’s completely useless. In fact, like, the reason why we do decks and things is mainly so, like, I have it in case
167 00:26:35.170 ⇒ 00:26:53.329 Uttam Kumaran: But a lot of, like, I just got off a project review with ABC, like, we produce a 10-deck, I showed two slides, and just riffed the entire time about, like, where we want to head the project to go. That’s, like, what we need. It’s, like, a little bit of sales, a little bit of technical architecture, a little bit of,
168 00:26:53.530 ⇒ 00:27:06.910 Uttam Kumaran: client relationship management, account management, that’s, like, the flavor. And so it pulled from what I know from engineering, it pulled from what I know things take, it also just pulled from, like, okay, I’m gonna try to find… let me see if I can find
169 00:27:06.910 ⇒ 00:27:15.810 Uttam Kumaran: an extra 5K, but I’m gonna do that in a way where I’m gonna tell them, hey, I told them very specifically, every dollar that you spend on Brainforge, I want it to be 5 out.
170 00:27:15.810 ⇒ 00:27:31.300 Uttam Kumaran: So help me find out where that is in your business, because as you guys know, and as you just told me on the call when I said, are we doing a really great job here, and you were like, yes, you are, we can do things. And so tell me where there is…
171 00:27:31.300 ⇒ 00:27:45.149 Uttam Kumaran: all this cost in your business where I can put… move my team to focus on. And I was very clear in that, like, I’m not afraid to do that on an outcome-based pricing or whatever, but I said, like, you… we built you a great AI system.
172 00:27:45.230 ⇒ 00:27:54.399 Uttam Kumaran: and this can get applied in other parts of your business, you need to tell me where that can be done. That’s like a strategist-type conversation, right?
173 00:27:54.400 ⇒ 00:27:54.900 Henry Zhao: Thank you.
174 00:27:55.020 ⇒ 00:28:11.980 Uttam Kumaran: I’m like, look, I can give you a couple ideas. Your mechanical people are on the field, and they’re asking about company policies. They should call the AI bot. Your trainers are asking this question. So I come up with a couple ideas, but even that’s, like, ideation, right? That’s… the engineer is not going to be tasked with that. Project manager is not going to be tasked with that.
175 00:28:11.980 ⇒ 00:28:18.920 Uttam Kumaran: They’re just… they’re just covering their usual tasks. The strategy person is the one that’s doing a little bit of sales.
176 00:28:18.920 ⇒ 00:28:25.310 Uttam Kumaran: Creative ideation with both of those backgrounds of just, like, can they manage a to-do list, and can they actually do the work?
177 00:28:25.700 ⇒ 00:28:30.880 Uttam Kumaran: So… This is gonna be a small group of folks, like, currently in the company.
178 00:28:31.020 ⇒ 00:28:37.789 Uttam Kumaran: I don’t know, I think it’s probably, like, me, Robert, you, like, I think…
179 00:28:38.270 ⇒ 00:28:40.990 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I don’t know, I feel like that’s probably…
180 00:28:41.610 ⇒ 00:28:51.129 Uttam Kumaran: most… and then Zoran, I think, is also… potentially could do it, just because he has a background in freelancing. But I don’t think there’s other folks right now that are uniquely equipped
181 00:28:51.380 ⇒ 00:28:52.420 Uttam Kumaran: to…
182 00:28:52.560 ⇒ 00:29:04.329 Uttam Kumaran: to do that, like, you know, very sincerely, like, the PMs have to… they’re not technical enough, right? They’re gonna… they’re gonna bluff. The engineers are not communicative enough, or they don’t know the…
183 00:29:04.440 ⇒ 00:29:23.370 Uttam Kumaran: the, like, sales side relationship building up, they’re gonna… they’re gonna completely fumble. So, that’s, like, kind of, like, where we’re at, you know, and so… but the people I’m gonna hire for PM or engineer are gonna be people where we see a path towards strategists. Because I know I can get you the engineer, I can get you the project manager, I can’t get…
184 00:29:23.900 ⇒ 00:29:27.009 Uttam Kumaran: this sort of unique role, it’s gonna be pretty hard.
185 00:29:27.220 ⇒ 00:29:28.310 Henry Zhao: Yep.
186 00:29:28.310 ⇒ 00:29:28.840 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
187 00:29:29.230 ⇒ 00:29:30.280 Henry Zhao: Yeah, sounds good to me.
188 00:29:31.520 ⇒ 00:29:35.159 Robert Tseng: Okay, yeah, I mean, I think the last thing I wanted to say here was, so…
189 00:29:35.190 ⇒ 00:29:44.179 Robert Tseng: Now, we’ve talked about… we talked about compensation, we’ve talked about, kind of, just, like, scope, but then we also want to talk about, like, relationships within, kind of, like, how you want
190 00:29:44.190 ⇒ 00:29:45.720 Robert Tseng: You know, are we going to put you…
191 00:29:45.720 ⇒ 00:30:09.780 Robert Tseng: I see people manager, like, which track, you know, kind of thing. Obviously, right now, maybe it seems like it’s more… we’re not gonna… there’s not, like, people we’re gonna just put under you right away. Like, I think it will probably start off as IC, but kind of just wanting to know, like, where do you see yourself? Like, do you… like, I know you’ve told me before that you enjoy kind of managing people, managing teams, like, I know you’ve done… you’ve done both roles before, and maybe here so far, you’ve been more IC.
192 00:30:09.780 ⇒ 00:30:15.499 Robert Tseng: But, like, yeah, just kind of curious, like, where do you see yourself being evolved on an organizational level? How do you want people
193 00:30:15.960 ⇒ 00:30:21.440 Robert Tseng: Again, like, what would… what would you… how would you like to… how do you see yourself thriving in organizational structure?
194 00:30:21.440 ⇒ 00:30:33.980 Henry Zhao: I’m fine with both paths, but I do really enjoy the people management. I enjoy coaching, I enjoy, you know, that kind of stuff, and bringing somebody under my wing, so to speak.
195 00:30:34.520 ⇒ 00:30:43.100 Robert Tseng: Okay. No, I mean, that’s great. I think that’s your… that’s not the popular answer, I would say, when we talk to people. So, yeah, I mean…
196 00:30:43.420 ⇒ 00:30:47.230 Robert Tseng: Yeah, Tom’s point, like, I think…
197 00:30:47.340 ⇒ 00:30:49.970 Robert Tseng: you know, right now, we don’t have… I mean, we have…
198 00:30:50.500 ⇒ 00:30:57.579 Robert Tseng: I mean, our only other people manager, like, is Awash right now. I guess…
199 00:30:57.690 ⇒ 00:31:03.840 Robert Tseng: things are kind of… things are in flux as well. So I think, I mean, if that’s where you want to be, then we’ll definitely consider that as we’re kind of.
200 00:31:04.180 ⇒ 00:31:05.819 Robert Tseng: Thinking through org structure.
201 00:31:05.870 ⇒ 00:31:20.369 Robert Tseng: I obviously, like, yeah, I… you know, I personally don’t think I’m a great people manager, so, like, I would want to, you know, be able to empower you if you are able to do that, and I think that’d be great. Like, there are definitely…
202 00:31:20.370 ⇒ 00:31:31.829 Robert Tseng: analysts and engineers that, like, need tending to, that, like, we don’t really give enough attention to, so I think that can be considered as well as we’re thinking through your internal scope, once we… once we bring you full-time.
203 00:31:31.830 ⇒ 00:31:34.890 Robert Tseng: So, yeah.
204 00:31:35.050 ⇒ 00:31:39.580 Robert Tseng: I guess that’s… those are the main things that we wanted to talk about. I know you had a couple questions.
205 00:31:39.830 ⇒ 00:31:45.659 Robert Tseng: That you wanted to bring to the call as well. So, you know, kind of floor is yours for the remainder of the time.
206 00:31:46.360 ⇒ 00:32:06.079 Henry Zhao: No, I think the only thing would be just, like, I would appreciate, like, flexibility in hours, so the thing that I’ve been… the way I’ve been working the past few weeks is, like, during the day, the workday, I’ve been just kind of… so you remember how I said, like, I’m working 24-7? What I really mean by that is, like, during the day, I’m kind of just answering questions, doing research, and planning out all of the projects.
207 00:32:06.080 ⇒ 00:32:06.480 Robert Tseng: Yeah.
208 00:32:06.480 ⇒ 00:32:18.540 Henry Zhao: so many messages coming in, I can’t focus on things that require, like, logic, or me sitting there for an hour or two to think about. And then, like, nighttime is when I start doing, like, the two-plus points tasks.
209 00:32:18.540 ⇒ 00:32:18.870 Robert Tseng: Yeah.
210 00:32:18.870 ⇒ 00:32:21.349 Henry Zhao: I need, like, that time to focus, so…
211 00:32:21.900 ⇒ 00:32:26.230 Robert Tseng: Yeah, I mean, is that the way that you want to work? I mean, we all kind of have to figure out what works for us.
212 00:32:26.230 ⇒ 00:32:34.640 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I guess, frankly, for me, like, I don’t… I only care about the outcome, so I don’t care how we get there. Of course, there’s, like, some things that are, like.
213 00:32:34.900 ⇒ 00:32:45.410 Uttam Kumaran: like, everybody in the company generally, like, is available during U.S. business hours, but this is where, like, if you work with your client, and you work with your team, and it’s working, like.
214 00:32:45.520 ⇒ 00:33:02.800 Uttam Kumaran: I don’t… I don’t care at all, you know? So, it doesn’t really matter for me either way. And then, to give you a sense of, like, utilization, like, for the most part, we’re gonna go for, like, 90% of your time is gonna be in something billable, right? So, let’s say you have 40 hours.
215 00:33:03.110 ⇒ 00:33:20.730 Uttam Kumaran: typically in consultancy, it’s closer to 80, because you have some people that are between contracts and things. We don’t really have that, and we don’t have a whole lot of internal work. And so, a lot of your time will go to billable, but you could… it’ll fluctuate as you need. But yeah, I mean, I don’t…
216 00:33:20.740 ⇒ 00:33:25.049 Uttam Kumaran: Again, I only care about the client being happy, however we get there. Yeah.
217 00:33:25.310 ⇒ 00:33:27.010 Uttam Kumaran: Not a… not a factor for me.
218 00:33:27.010 ⇒ 00:33:42.900 Henry Zhao: Yeah, but if I go full-time, I’ll probably end up, like, probably 80 hours a week, just in terms of, like, I might have 40 hours of, like, being available to answer questions, and, like, dealing with all the, like, drama that’s happening, and then the other 40 is, like, at nighttime, when I can finally, like, peacefully work.
219 00:33:43.230 ⇒ 00:33:43.950 Henry Zhao: And do stuff.
220 00:33:43.950 ⇒ 00:33:48.019 Robert Tseng: Yeah, and, you know, if you feel like that’s not working out for you, we understand that, like…
221 00:33:48.020 ⇒ 00:34:06.190 Robert Tseng: kind of… it changes, like, it’s pretty dynamic, like, you know, our schedules are changing all the time, too. Not all the time, it’s less crazy than it was before, like, things are a little bit more predictable. But, yeah, so, like, happy to kind of be… kind of give you ideas on, like, how we manage our time, and, like, how we… yeah, so, like, that’s…
222 00:34:06.190 ⇒ 00:34:15.999 Uttam Kumaran: It’s also self-induced a lot, like, I think our PMs are not pulling their weight in terms of, like, triaging and being able to step in front of the client bullet enough.
223 00:34:16.120 ⇒ 00:34:23.509 Uttam Kumaran: Like, I want to step in front of certain bullets, but, like, for example, I just got pinged about, like, hey, what ticket should I work on next?
224 00:34:23.590 ⇒ 00:34:41.659 Uttam Kumaran: why am I being pinged for that? You know, like, that is not a me problem. And so, as what you’ll see, and I’ve been doing this last two weeks, is now that we have Justin, who’s starting to lead, sort of, PM and delivery, the level of expectations for the project managers, who are supposed to manage that, like.
225 00:34:41.659 ⇒ 00:34:58.360 Uttam Kumaran: basic work of what you’re working on next, points, all that, that’s going to them. Like, I am not doing that. I’m gonna be able to execute the tickets that I get assigned, but what to work on next is a mix of the PM and some people on the strategy side, but, like.
226 00:34:58.500 ⇒ 00:35:02.800 Uttam Kumaran: booking a meeting, or when… what should I work on next, like.
227 00:35:02.910 ⇒ 00:35:10.930 Uttam Kumaran: like, we can’t be tasked to handle those types of things, so the expectations for the project managers are going to get higher as well, which is hopefully
228 00:35:11.070 ⇒ 00:35:23.440 Uttam Kumaran: kind of, like, quell some of that. And again, like, a lot of the businesses we’re working on, they like us because we are very active and proactive in our responses. Then it’s up to you to get them to pay for that, right? So, it’s like, how do I
229 00:35:23.780 ⇒ 00:35:31.049 Uttam Kumaran: to charge more and use that as a shoe-in to then get the renewal, get the expansion, right? So that sort of stuff is just part of the game.
230 00:35:31.660 ⇒ 00:35:32.330 Robert Tseng: Yeah.
231 00:35:32.800 ⇒ 00:35:40.239 Robert Tseng: I think your communication with the client has been good, Henry. Like, I know that you feel… I don’t know, my observation is I feel like you’re more of, like, an…
232 00:35:40.540 ⇒ 00:35:49.509 Robert Tseng: You’re more of an anxious communicator, like, you kind of assume… maybe assume the worst, or, like, you’re always trying to kind of just jump in front of things, and maybe you’re kind of
233 00:35:49.720 ⇒ 00:35:56.220 Robert Tseng: Over-complicating it, kind of letting… letting the worst kind of come to your mind before it actually happens.
234 00:35:56.400 ⇒ 00:36:03.079 Robert Tseng: And I think, like, it’s okay, like, to… like, yeah, you don’t have to catch everything. I mean.
235 00:36:03.080 ⇒ 00:36:26.900 Robert Tseng: we need to be… like, I think you do a better job now of, like, being able to give a response to everything, and you’re just like, just give me some time and look for it. But even if you don’t have 100% certainty, to be able to just push the conversation, I think that’s, like, something that I would encourage you to kind of be able to do. I think a lot of your answers are… I mean, you go very neutral, like, just to start, just because, like, you want to buy yourself some time to, like, get to the answer.
236 00:36:27.010 ⇒ 00:36:35.499 Robert Tseng: But that, like, if you do that, and you just come back to it later, you’re kind of, like, thinking about the problem twice. So if it’s, like, if you just sit there and just think about, like.
237 00:36:35.500 ⇒ 00:36:51.950 Robert Tseng: do I have, like, 60% to 80% confidence of just, like, pushing it in your direction? Just push it, and let it, like, go. Like, let the client, like, run with that, and then they come back to you if you need it. Rather than staying neutral on everything to start, and then you having to come back and form an opinion. Like, I feel like you may be, like, kind of just giving yourself
238 00:36:51.950 ⇒ 00:36:56.659 Robert Tseng: You know, you’re just thinking about a problem, like, a lot of these things are a little bit too long, then…
239 00:36:56.660 ⇒ 00:36:57.360 Henry Zhao: That’s true.
240 00:36:57.360 ⇒ 00:37:04.290 Robert Tseng: Yeah. Yeah, I, like, do the neutral, and then I, like, remark it as remind me in 3 hours. Yeah. I, like, think about it, yeah. Yeah.
241 00:37:04.290 ⇒ 00:37:20.410 Robert Tseng: But sometimes, like, if you just spend, like, the 5 seconds there, you’ll… you’re, like, 60-80% confident, like, you’re good enough to just skip an answer. Like, I… I think there are very few things that, yeah, that I answer with 100% certainty. Like, I think maybe that’s a… not a great thing in some situations, but I think…
242 00:37:20.760 ⇒ 00:37:25.869 Robert Tseng: You know, in order to keep up with the pace of how fast things go here, like, sometimes.
243 00:37:25.870 ⇒ 00:37:42.540 Uttam Kumaran: The alternative is no answer for them. Most of the questions we get, they have no answer. It’s better for us to, like, do something where we feel confident, and there are times where I’m like, I don’t know, I need an hour, or we need time, but most of the stuff, I kind of generally have a guess, and so I get an answer.
244 00:37:42.570 ⇒ 00:37:55.980 Uttam Kumaran: And, like, on default, for example, I know Mustafa is working on stuff, so I can answer. Anytime the answer turns into work, I pass it. Like, I don’t do… I don’t execute. So that’s the… also thing I try to get myself out of, is, like.
245 00:37:56.180 ⇒ 00:37:59.570 Uttam Kumaran: I’m talking in Slack, okay, great, can we go ahead and do that?
246 00:38:00.020 ⇒ 00:38:13.870 Uttam Kumaran: Usually, my instinct is to go do it. That’s not a good use of my time. And so instead, I’m like, great, we have a basket of work. I can then ping Amber, or ping the PM, and ping… ping Justin, ping Mustafa, ticket this out and execute it.
247 00:38:13.970 ⇒ 00:38:24.659 Uttam Kumaran: And then communicate when it’s done. So I just played my role, which is, like, working with the client, extracting the details, getting to a block of work, shoving it to somebody, you know?
248 00:38:24.740 ⇒ 00:38:36.250 Uttam Kumaran: And as a strategist on that thing, like, that’s what… that’s what I need to do. I don’t think… I don’t think the PM or the engineer could have been able to do that in the 10-15 minutes that I was on there, you know?
249 00:38:36.400 ⇒ 00:38:37.180 Henry Zhao: Yeah.
250 00:38:38.480 ⇒ 00:38:39.110 Robert Tseng: Yeah.
251 00:38:40.570 ⇒ 00:38:43.980 Henry Zhao: Cool, those were all my questions, those were all the points that I wanted to get to.
252 00:38:44.620 ⇒ 00:38:46.860 Robert Tseng: Cool, yeah,
253 00:38:47.020 ⇒ 00:38:57.719 Robert Tseng: Yeah, thanks for… thanks for the work that you’re doing so far. I think, yeah, you’re doing a great job, like, we’ve learned a lot from working with you. Clearly, like, we’re… it’s forced us to think about, like, wait, we need more.
254 00:38:57.720 ⇒ 00:39:16.930 Robert Tseng: we need to have more people like Henry, like his… how do we… how do we change our delivery structure so that we’re able to actually be able to have… have… have this type of role? So I think, you know, it’s been a pleasure so far, it was great meeting you in Chicago, and hopefully we’ll either see you in Austin or New York again soon.
255 00:39:16.930 ⇒ 00:39:20.669 Henry Zhao: Yeah, so my friend invited me to her birthday in Austin in December, so I’ll definitely be there.
256 00:39:20.670 ⇒ 00:39:23.449 Uttam Kumaran: Oh, great, yeah, tell me the dates.
257 00:39:23.450 ⇒ 00:39:24.940 Henry Zhao: Robert was maybe gonna go there in December, too.
258 00:39:24.940 ⇒ 00:39:28.759 Robert Tseng: Yeah, yeah, let me know the dates, and I’ll… maybe I’ll try to plan it around then.
259 00:39:30.150 ⇒ 00:39:32.360 Henry Zhao: I was originally to meet Utam in person, but I already did know.
260 00:39:32.360 ⇒ 00:39:36.049 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah. Yeah, gate B4, or whatever.
261 00:39:36.480 ⇒ 00:39:36.800 Uttam Kumaran: Okay.
262 00:39:36.800 ⇒ 00:39:37.335 Robert Tseng: No!
263 00:39:38.660 ⇒ 00:39:39.390 Robert Tseng: Cool.
264 00:39:39.640 ⇒ 00:39:42.339 Robert Tseng: Alright, well… Thanks guys.
265 00:39:43.640 ⇒ 00:39:44.430 Robert Tseng: So, yeah.
266 00:39:44.710 ⇒ 00:39:45.120 Henry Zhao: Bye.