Meeting Title: Disney Chief of Staff Insights Date: 2025-08-22 Meeting participants: Amber Lin, Allyson Choi
WEBVTT
1 00:04:11.760 ⇒ 00:04:13.859 Allyson Choi: Hey, Amber, can you hear me?
2 00:04:14.880 ⇒ 00:04:15.919 Amber Lin: Hey there!
3 00:04:16.610 ⇒ 00:04:17.000 Allyson Choi: How are you?
4 00:04:17.000 ⇒ 00:04:25.099 Amber Lin: I’m good. I just… I just moved, this week, so a lot of…
5 00:04:25.630 ⇒ 00:04:28.940 Amber Lin: moving things, and right now, I’m in a really nice space.
6 00:04:29.730 ⇒ 00:04:31.300 Allyson Choi: Nice. Where’d you move to?
7 00:04:31.300 ⇒ 00:04:34.499 Amber Lin: I was originally in downtown LA, and….
8 00:04:34.500 ⇒ 00:04:35.050 Allyson Choi: Okay.
9 00:04:35.050 ⇒ 00:04:43.800 Amber Lin: My partner recently found a job, so we’re hunting for apartments, but then there’s a one-month gap that we have nowhere to go, so right now, we’re in Lake Arrowhead.
10 00:04:43.800 ⇒ 00:04:45.209 Allyson Choi: Oh, wow, okay.
11 00:04:45.420 ⇒ 00:04:47.700 Amber Lin: Were you ever in LA before?
12 00:04:47.700 ⇒ 00:04:49.720 Allyson Choi: Yeah, I actually live in Burbank.
13 00:04:49.720 ⇒ 00:04:50.939 Amber Lin: Oh, wow, okay.
14 00:04:50.940 ⇒ 00:05:00.119 Allyson Choi: Yeah, yeah, so Disney is… I work at Disney. Disney is headquartered in Burbank and Glendale, so I’ve lived here for the past, like, 7 years.
15 00:05:00.580 ⇒ 00:05:03.470 Amber Lin: Wow. Where were you from originally?
16 00:05:03.660 ⇒ 00:05:06.399 Allyson Choi: San Diego. So, I’ll like Southern California.
17 00:05:06.400 ⇒ 00:05:08.230 Amber Lin: Oh, I see.
18 00:05:08.680 ⇒ 00:05:10.389 Amber Lin: That must be really cool.
19 00:05:10.480 ⇒ 00:05:13.140 Allyson Choi: Yeah, I moved here, I think.
20 00:05:13.140 ⇒ 00:05:19.669 Amber Lin: I’m originally from China, and I think I was… I was in LA 2 years ago, so…
21 00:05:20.270 ⇒ 00:05:24.210 Amber Lin: It’s been a while since I’m here, but haven’t seen all of it yet.
22 00:05:24.210 ⇒ 00:05:27.729 Allyson Choi: Yeah. Well, very cool. Thank you for….
23 00:05:27.730 ⇒ 00:05:31.579 Amber Lin: Probably today, it’s already… I know it’s already 3PM on a Friday.
24 00:05:31.730 ⇒ 00:05:37.490 Allyson Choi: It’s all good. I’m happy to chat, and Robert said wonderful things about you, and gave you some context, so…
25 00:05:38.130 ⇒ 00:05:38.850 Allyson Choi: Yeah.
26 00:05:40.250 ⇒ 00:05:42.090 Amber Lin: How was your… how was your day today?
27 00:05:42.110 ⇒ 00:05:51.050 Allyson Choi: It’s… it’s been a little chaotic this week, so, it’s kind of busy season, so just trying to…
28 00:05:51.210 ⇒ 00:05:56.480 Allyson Choi: Hopefully log off a little bit early, because we’ve been super slammed this week, but….
29 00:05:56.650 ⇒ 00:05:57.410 Amber Lin: Wow.
30 00:05:57.410 ⇒ 00:06:00.779 Allyson Choi: Yeah, we’re kind of, like, wrapping up a big project today, so….
31 00:06:00.780 ⇒ 00:06:01.240 Amber Lin: Hmm.
32 00:06:01.240 ⇒ 00:06:02.380 Allyson Choi: …
33 00:06:02.850 ⇒ 00:06:10.709 Allyson Choi: Yeah, I think after this, I’m hoping I can just send a couple of emails and then start my weekend, but you never know. Yeah. Yeah, we’ll see.
34 00:06:10.710 ⇒ 00:06:24.400 Amber Lin: I took these past two days off, but I’m looking at it, I feel like I probably should still send a few emails, just so that the clients have context, but, other than that, this has been, luckily, an easier week for me.
35 00:06:24.400 ⇒ 00:06:29.710 Allyson Choi: Nice. Well, that sounds good. I mean, you’re in a beautiful place, too, so… Yeah. Sounds enjoyable.
36 00:06:30.290 ⇒ 00:06:46.420 Amber Lin: I saw… I looked at your background, and Robert also gave me some context, and I’m actually very, very curious about what you did. He said you were Chief of staff for, a department at Disney for a while. I… I just… I looked at your LinkedIn. I don’t know if it’s the right LinkedIn.
37 00:06:46.420 ⇒ 00:06:47.180 Allyson Choi: Yay.
38 00:06:47.180 ⇒ 00:06:47.550 Amber Lin: But….
39 00:06:47.550 ⇒ 00:06:48.120 Allyson Choi: ….
40 00:06:48.120 ⇒ 00:06:51.479 Amber Lin: I just want to see what you’re doing and what it’s like.
41 00:06:51.480 ⇒ 00:07:03.460 Allyson Choi: Yeah, so I… I’ve been at Disney for 7 years now, and I’ve rotated through many teams at this point, so I did, like, a parks, finance and strategy group.
42 00:07:03.780 ⇒ 00:07:16.840 Allyson Choi: I worked in corporate treasury, doing more, like, traditional corporate finance, and then I moved over to Imagineering, which is the creative and engineering branch that,
43 00:07:17.010 ⇒ 00:07:27.029 Allyson Choi: imagines up the new attractions and experiences for the Disney parks. And so, within that, there is, like, a technology.
44 00:07:27.430 ⇒ 00:07:29.360 Allyson Choi: department that…
45 00:07:29.510 ⇒ 00:07:40.659 Allyson Choi: covers both software projects and also research and development, so I belong to that group, and I, for a couple of years, was the chief of staff for the
46 00:07:40.770 ⇒ 00:07:50.980 Allyson Choi: VP Leading Software Innovation. And so, we’ve recently consolidated groups, so now I… I’m loving.
47 00:07:52.090 ⇒ 00:08:04.660 Allyson Choi: Chief of Staff, and I more just manage, like, the budget for the whole department, for both R&D and software innovation. So my role has changed this year, but I was chief of staff for a while, and my scope
48 00:08:05.070 ⇒ 00:08:13.669 Allyson Choi: Included all of the, like, financial management, budget management, making sure that we could secure project approvals.
49 00:08:13.930 ⇒ 00:08:31.829 Allyson Choi: For all of our important projects, and also running business operations, so a lot of our work is supported by third-party vendors, so managing, like, the contract process, owning relationships between sourcing and legal. A lot of the overhead work
50 00:08:32.620 ⇒ 00:08:33.600 Allyson Choi: that…
51 00:08:33.700 ⇒ 00:08:47.560 Allyson Choi: we don’t want our technical teams to worry about, so that they can actually focus on, like, building things and doing their technical innovation. And then… so I think that was a pretty sizable scope, and then the chief of staff work
52 00:08:47.720 ⇒ 00:08:51.340 Allyson Choi: was… A lot of, …
53 00:08:51.990 ⇒ 00:09:06.129 Allyson Choi: Some strategic thinking, a lot of wrangling of people, like making sure that the right people were in the room to make decisions, following up with other people on the leadership team to make sure that
54 00:09:06.320 ⇒ 00:09:14.020 Allyson Choi: You know, my boss’s, priorities were being, like, taken care of, so it was a lot of…
55 00:09:14.220 ⇒ 00:09:18.459 Allyson Choi: I think, like, translating across functions, …
56 00:09:19.140 ⇒ 00:09:30.710 Allyson Choi: being a really good communicator, trying to push things forward as best as I could, and then, … yeah, I would say that was the bulk of it, but I think
57 00:09:30.930 ⇒ 00:09:34.720 Allyson Choi: Before I started in that job, there was a good….
58 00:09:34.780 ⇒ 00:09:47.840 Amber Lin: HBS article on, chiefs of staff roles. That’s so funny. Actually, I talked to someone yesterday, and they also, it’s also one of Robert’s previous colleagues at Flowspace, and she.
59 00:09:47.840 ⇒ 00:09:48.600 Allyson Choi: Oh, yeah.
60 00:09:48.600 ⇒ 00:09:51.409 Amber Lin: to the HP, I just read it this morning.
61 00:09:51.410 ⇒ 00:09:54.100 Allyson Choi: Oh, nice, perfect. So I think that was, like, a good…
62 00:09:54.290 ⇒ 00:10:03.329 Allyson Choi: overview, because it… I think Chief of Staff can be so vague. It’s kind of like BizOps, you know, like, what does that mean? It can take many different forms.
63 00:10:03.710 ⇒ 00:10:07.269 Allyson Choi: I think there were definitely some days…
64 00:10:07.700 ⇒ 00:10:12.989 Allyson Choi: I think the HBS article mentions, like, a level 1 or something like that, where it’s more…
65 00:10:13.080 ⇒ 00:10:21.330 Allyson Choi: like a… an elevated EA kind of role. There were definitely some days, honestly, where…
66 00:10:21.370 ⇒ 00:10:33.049 Allyson Choi: I kind of… I felt like my work was more aligned with that. That wasn’t the majority of it, but, you know, there would be a day here or there where I was kind of wrangling my VP, making sure that, like, we…
67 00:10:33.050 ⇒ 00:10:46.709 Allyson Choi: especially when he was physically visiting California, because he worked on the opposite coast, that we, like, physically went to meetings together, and just, like, keeping him moving, because at the time he didn’t have an EA, so I… I found myself
68 00:10:46.840 ⇒ 00:10:53.290 Allyson Choi: doing that work too, which is not bad, it’s just a bit different. But you kind of, I think, as a chief of staff.
69 00:10:54.230 ⇒ 00:10:57.780 Allyson Choi: Mold yourself to fit whatever your boss needs.
70 00:10:58.090 ⇒ 00:10:58.620 Amber Lin: Hmm.
71 00:10:58.620 ⇒ 00:11:05.150 Allyson Choi: And what each boss needs may be very different, so I think it really depends on the executive that you’re supporting, and what
72 00:11:05.460 ⇒ 00:11:08.520 Allyson Choi: What gaps they have that they’d like to fill.
73 00:11:09.270 ⇒ 00:11:15.890 Amber Lin: I see, that’s so interesting. I was reading that one, too, and when I read the first part, I had a slight, …
74 00:11:16.760 ⇒ 00:11:28.219 Amber Lin: what do you say it? I don’t want to do that type of work, but I also understand that that’s part of the job, and I also know that at my current abilities, I’m not…
75 00:11:28.220 ⇒ 00:11:51.849 Amber Lin: at the C-suite level of being able to make those decisions, so it is a… it is a good point to start, but it does sound like it’s a lot of, back-and-forth communication and wrangling, which is… which is essentially what I do now, because right now I’m a project manager, and it sounds like a lot of that task is the administrative side, and… and I was wondering how you manage to take that to the more…
76 00:11:51.890 ⇒ 00:12:04.720 Amber Lin: strategic side and eventually have your current responsibilities, which is related to more, finance, budgets, and strategic, projects. How did you accomplish that transition?
77 00:12:05.220 ⇒ 00:12:11.439 Allyson Choi: Yeah, I… I’m gonna be honest, that scope, the financial and operations side, was always part of my scope.
78 00:12:11.440 ⇒ 00:12:11.780 Amber Lin: Hmm.
79 00:12:11.780 ⇒ 00:12:15.009 Allyson Choi: So, it wasn’t necessarily something I had to…
80 00:12:15.680 ⇒ 00:12:23.580 Allyson Choi: advocate for. Like, it was already on my plate when I signed up for this job. So I would say, since we’ve consolidated, I have…
81 00:12:24.370 ⇒ 00:12:43.049 Allyson Choi: so… so basically, before, it was, like, we had a head of R&D and a head of software, and then I was a chief of staff that reported directly to the chief… to the head of software, and so I was his chief of staff. But now we have consolidated, so operations is, like, one horizontal bar that supports
82 00:12:43.060 ⇒ 00:12:47.769 Allyson Choi: both R&D and software, so I report to a
83 00:12:47.810 ⇒ 00:12:58.289 Allyson Choi: Business Operations Director. So I don’t… I don’t… that’s why I’m not a chief of staff anymore, because I don’t support a single executive. So now my budget…
84 00:12:59.250 ⇒ 00:13:04.290 Allyson Choi: responsibility. I’m no longer Chief of staff, but my budget responsibility has essentially doubled.
85 00:13:04.660 ⇒ 00:13:09.620 Allyson Choi: But… I always had that as part of my scope.
86 00:13:10.000 ⇒ 00:13:16.550 Allyson Choi: I would say, yeah, I don’t… I guess I don’t have much, like, specific advice, because I haven’t had to…
87 00:13:17.480 ⇒ 00:13:19.060 Allyson Choi: Advocate for that.
88 00:13:19.590 ⇒ 00:13:24.840 Allyson Choi: However, generally speaking, When you are…
89 00:13:25.270 ⇒ 00:13:29.429 Allyson Choi: I feel like, opportunities for strategic thinking
90 00:13:29.540 ⇒ 00:13:38.939 Allyson Choi: will naturally come up in a Chief of Staff role, and I think showing, like, an aptitude for it, being excited about those opportunities, …
91 00:13:40.030 ⇒ 00:13:57.650 Allyson Choi: I would hope that an executive would see that you’re doing a good job and excited about that work, and would want to, like, feed you more of those things. But I think it’s important, if you find a chief of staff role, that you really understand what the executive is looking for.
92 00:13:58.260 ⇒ 00:14:05.159 Allyson Choi: Because there’s also, like, super high-powered chief of staff where it’s, like, very strategic all the time.
93 00:14:05.690 ⇒ 00:14:08.260 Allyson Choi: And, I think that’s…
94 00:14:09.100 ⇒ 00:14:15.249 Allyson Choi: That probably exists more when you’re supporting C-suite-level executives, especially at, like, a big company.
95 00:14:17.580 ⇒ 00:14:23.350 Amber Lin: I see. I was also reading a article on, …
96 00:14:23.460 ⇒ 00:14:34.790 Amber Lin: the different level guides of a chief of Staff, so different… so, as you said, similar to the Harvest Spencer’s review, they broke it down to, I think, 6 levels, to the basic analyst and associate.
97 00:14:34.790 ⇒ 00:14:47.379 Amber Lin: to the CXO level people, and it talks about the different skills that different levels of Chief of staff can cover, and I looked at it, and I was like, oh, I think I’m mostly in the…
98 00:14:47.380 ⇒ 00:15:02.709 Amber Lin: the starting 1 and 2 range, and as you talked about your experience, I was wondering, what type of skills do you think are important for that type of role that I should focus my energy on?
99 00:15:03.050 ⇒ 00:15:03.910 Allyson Choi: Hmm.
100 00:15:11.090 ⇒ 00:15:14.400 Allyson Choi: I think being able to…
101 00:15:19.500 ⇒ 00:15:28.489 Allyson Choi: gain an understanding of the, like, most important parts of a problem or a situation very quickly, I think is very important.
102 00:15:28.660 ⇒ 00:15:42.529 Allyson Choi: I think a lot of chief of Staffs are kind of, like, tossed at problems to, like, try to figure them out pretty quickly. So I think an ability to, you know, ask important questions, understand the essence of the problem.
103 00:15:42.680 ⇒ 00:15:53.009 Allyson Choi: And I guess being comfortable in ambiguity, because I feel like a lot of the issues, oftentimes there’s no, like, right… clear right or wrong answer.
104 00:15:53.230 ⇒ 00:16:00.860 Allyson Choi: You have to… and they all oftentimes involve people, so you have to work with people, and people are naturally, …
105 00:16:02.820 ⇒ 00:16:06.650 Allyson Choi: I don’t know. People are people, so, …
106 00:16:06.820 ⇒ 00:16:10.460 Allyson Choi: yeah, being comfortable in ambiguous situations, and I think…
107 00:16:11.320 ⇒ 00:16:14.859 Allyson Choi: Being able to push things forward without having a lot of direction.
108 00:16:15.220 ⇒ 00:16:16.940 Allyson Choi: Is important.
109 00:16:17.610 ⇒ 00:16:20.639 Allyson Choi: Because the person that you’re supporting is probably…
110 00:16:21.530 ⇒ 00:16:29.860 Allyson Choi: firing on all cylinders, trying to do a million things at once, and may not have the time or bandwidth to give you, like, discrete instructions, so.
111 00:16:30.480 ⇒ 00:16:36.129 Allyson Choi: I think it’s a classic example of, like, being a self-starter, …
112 00:16:37.180 ⇒ 00:16:45.010 Allyson Choi: And I think that’s where some of that strategic thinking comes in, where you figure out a approach or a framework that
113 00:16:45.710 ⇒ 00:16:51.490 Allyson Choi: We’ll work for you to keep things moving, rather than, say, going to your boss or your executive
114 00:16:51.640 ⇒ 00:16:55.640 Allyson Choi: Sometimes you will need their input, for sure, when, ….
115 00:16:57.010 ⇒ 00:17:03.429 Allyson Choi: when decisions… Can only be made by them, but… Yeah, being a self-starter…
116 00:17:04.430 ⇒ 00:17:13.859 Allyson Choi: And also just having really strong communication. I think strong communication and EQ. Although EQ, it’s hard to… …
117 00:17:14.599 ⇒ 00:17:18.150 Allyson Choi: I don’t really know how you work on EQ, but I think it’s…
118 00:17:18.480 ⇒ 00:17:27.440 Allyson Choi: important when you walk into a room knowing how you can communicate most effectively with somebody, understanding if tensions are high, how you can…
119 00:17:28.410 ⇒ 00:17:36.760 Allyson Choi: … yeah, kind of reduce either conflict or tension to find a solution. I think that’s important.
120 00:17:37.080 ⇒ 00:17:45.200 Amber Lin: I see. Could you tell me when that role was specifically, like, a case when that was really, really challenging?
121 00:17:46.460 ⇒ 00:17:48.580 Allyson Choi: Yeah, I think a chief of staff
122 00:17:49.010 ⇒ 00:17:52.799 Allyson Choi: generally, I think my biggest challenge with it is that
123 00:17:53.290 ⇒ 00:17:59.649 Allyson Choi: at the end of the day, you don’t, as the Chief of Staff, necessarily Own very much.
124 00:17:59.740 ⇒ 00:18:01.559 Amber Lin: For example, like.
125 00:18:03.170 ⇒ 00:18:04.450 Allyson Choi: …
126 00:18:07.840 ⇒ 00:18:19.470 Allyson Choi: We are doing, like, our financial planning for the next year, which means we have to create a list of our most important projects and make a ton of budget cuts, right? Because every engineer wants to build everything.
127 00:18:20.120 ⇒ 00:18:26.759 Allyson Choi: Now… As a… as a finance person slash ops person slash chief of staff.
128 00:18:26.940 ⇒ 00:18:36.309 Allyson Choi: I can make up a plan that, based off of my own educated guess on what should be cut and what should stay. However.
129 00:18:36.640 ⇒ 00:18:49.799 Allyson Choi: has a lot of, like, implications for our product folks, who may need to wrangle stakeholders that I may not own. I don’t own those relationships, so product has to weigh in on that. Our…
130 00:18:50.020 ⇒ 00:18:56.400 Allyson Choi: Technical director has to weigh in on it, because she has… she owns a software developer who’s working on those projects.
131 00:18:56.740 ⇒ 00:19:02.890 Allyson Choi: And also, at the end of the day, my boss at the time, like, my software innovation boss.
132 00:19:03.330 ⇒ 00:19:05.790 Allyson Choi: Owned delivery for everything.
133 00:19:05.790 ⇒ 00:19:06.690 Amber Lin: So….
134 00:19:07.330 ⇒ 00:19:15.530 Allyson Choi: I could make up a plan, but at the end of the day, like, he needs to be the one to weigh in on what he wants to be responsible for versus what he does not.
135 00:19:16.340 ⇒ 00:19:19.180 Allyson Choi: And so, I can push everybody to try to make
136 00:19:19.800 ⇒ 00:19:23.390 Allyson Choi: Decisions based off of, you know, asking them
137 00:19:23.960 ⇒ 00:19:35.759 Allyson Choi: pointed questions, like, what are… what’s driving the work? What happens if we don’t do it? Like, classic prioritization questions, but at the end of the day, I… I, as the Chief of staff, should probably not be the one making the final choice.
138 00:19:35.960 ⇒ 00:19:36.710 Amber Lin: I see.
139 00:19:36.710 ⇒ 00:19:39.799 Allyson Choi: And so, it’s a lot of pushing and nudging.
140 00:19:40.320 ⇒ 00:19:43.990 Allyson Choi: While not necessarily owning the final.
141 00:19:43.990 ⇒ 00:19:44.530 Amber Lin: Hmm.
142 00:19:45.170 ⇒ 00:19:50.780 Allyson Choi: Like, you’re not… you’re not the person who is, like, fully accountable at the end of the day. Does that make sense?
143 00:19:50.890 ⇒ 00:19:54.069 Amber Lin: Yeah, do you feel different in your current role in BizOps?
144 00:19:54.260 ⇒ 00:19:58.480 Allyson Choi: Yeah, I feel a little bit different. I think… because I…
145 00:19:58.610 ⇒ 00:20:10.489 Allyson Choi: because my primary scope is now budget management across a much bigger portfolio, I think that, to me, is a lot more clear. I see. I still have similar…
146 00:20:10.610 ⇒ 00:20:12.789 Allyson Choi: Situations of that, though, where
147 00:20:13.390 ⇒ 00:20:28.720 Allyson Choi: even though I don’t directly report to the software head or the R&D director, I still need to nudge them to make decisions. So I still find myself in those situations. I’m just no longer a chief of staff.
148 00:20:28.930 ⇒ 00:20:33.430 Allyson Choi: But it still happens, right? Where I have to corral a bunch of people into a room and say, okay, let’s….
149 00:20:33.590 ⇒ 00:20:46.249 Amber Lin: let’s prioritize and pick projects for next year, and… Oh, so that sounds like a very important skill that carried over from your Chief of Staff experience. It’s making… having the right people to make the decisions.
150 00:20:46.250 ⇒ 00:20:46.950 Allyson Choi: Mhmart.
151 00:20:46.950 ⇒ 00:20:47.740 Amber Lin: patient.
152 00:20:47.740 ⇒ 00:20:53.539 Allyson Choi: Yeah, absolutely. And I think knowing your organization very well, like.
153 00:20:54.840 ⇒ 00:20:55.900 Allyson Choi: Which sounds
154 00:20:56.700 ⇒ 00:21:09.310 Allyson Choi: not that hard, but I guess when you work in a very large organization, like Disney, making sure that you know who should be in the room, and who to go to, who to include, is very important.
155 00:21:09.520 ⇒ 00:21:16.230 Allyson Choi: Yeah, for making decisions, making sure everybody understands trade-offs that are being made.
156 00:21:16.340 ⇒ 00:21:17.390 Allyson Choi: …
157 00:21:18.540 ⇒ 00:21:35.709 Allyson Choi: things like that. But honestly, it’s also… there’s pros and cons to not being the accountable one, right? Like, if stuff doesn’t go well, great! It’s not on you! That’s, like, whatever, you aren’t the person in charge of making sure that the project, you know, shipped.
158 00:21:35.710 ⇒ 00:21:36.869 Amber Lin: I think….
159 00:21:36.900 ⇒ 00:21:45.929 Allyson Choi: The con of that is it can be challenging or frustrating, because you can’t force, like, I can’t force the…
160 00:21:46.140 ⇒ 00:21:53.400 Allyson Choi: product person to make certain decisions, because I’m not his boss. I’m like a… I’m trying to influence without authority.
161 00:21:53.730 ⇒ 00:22:03.560 Allyson Choi: there’s a lot of influencing without authority in the chief of staff role, because product is a peer, and he reports to the head of software, right? So…
162 00:22:03.920 ⇒ 00:22:07.239 Allyson Choi: … In that sense, I can’t…
163 00:22:08.580 ⇒ 00:22:23.629 Allyson Choi: I can’t necessarily delegate or demand things in the way that I can demand things of my team, for example. Or I can give them a task, and they should do it, because I’m, you know, their leader, and ask them to complete.
164 00:22:23.630 ⇒ 00:22:24.270 Amber Lin: I see.
165 00:22:24.270 ⇒ 00:22:25.579 Allyson Choi: something. Does that make sense?
166 00:22:25.580 ⇒ 00:22:31.250 Amber Lin: Yeah, totally. I had the same experience when I first started project management, because I… I used to be a
167 00:22:31.360 ⇒ 00:22:50.280 Amber Lin: I used to work in many different roles. I worked as a… mainly as a consultant, and then I did a bit of finance, and did a bit of sales, and project management is really new to me. I started it 5 months ago, and I remember when I first started on our internal projects, I just couldn’t understand why it’s so different when my boss managed the project versus
168 00:22:50.610 ⇒ 00:23:00.279 Amber Lin: I managed projects, and, I think Robert summed it well, quite well. He said, Utom has technical tyranny, because he
169 00:23:00.790 ⇒ 00:23:12.720 Amber Lin: is a very senior engineer, and he’s also the boss, so I think, okay, I see. Part of it is project management skills, part of it is just people are more proactive when they’re with their boss, so I just…
170 00:23:13.080 ⇒ 00:23:16.590 Amber Lin: For sure. For sure. And I think for me.
171 00:23:16.990 ⇒ 00:23:20.090 Allyson Choi: And this may be helpful for you, too.
172 00:23:20.750 ⇒ 00:23:27.039 Allyson Choi: … when I started… do you mind if I ask how old you are?
173 00:23:27.040 ⇒ 00:23:31.089 Amber Lin: Yeah, totally. I’m 20… Or 21, 22, I forgot.
174 00:23:31.090 ⇒ 00:23:33.999 Allyson Choi: Okay, so, okay, so you’re very early in your career.
175 00:23:34.000 ⇒ 00:23:37.810 Amber Lin: This is my… this is my first full-time job out of college.
176 00:23:37.810 ⇒ 00:23:38.799 Allyson Choi: Oh, wow, okay.
177 00:23:38.800 ⇒ 00:23:42.189 Amber Lin: Once before, I was still somewhat in school.
178 00:23:42.190 ⇒ 00:23:48.029 Allyson Choi: Okay, got it. Okay, so, when I started as Chief of Staff, I was….
179 00:23:48.030 ⇒ 00:23:50.290 Amber Lin: 25, and….
180 00:23:50.480 ⇒ 00:23:58.160 Allyson Choi: all of my peers, so the head of product, the head of software, they were all… maybe…
181 00:23:58.780 ⇒ 00:24:18.710 Allyson Choi: 15, 20 years older than me, so they were a lot older than me. And so I didn’t have, like, the gravitas of, like, age and seniority. So I think for me, what leading effectively as a chief of staff, what that looked like, was developing strong relationships.
182 00:24:18.770 ⇒ 00:24:22.420 Allyson Choi: Developing, like, a sense of, you know, respect for…
183 00:24:22.700 ⇒ 00:24:39.489 Allyson Choi: other people’s crafts, so just as I learned to respect product and what they do, product, you know, in turn, the leader of product, you know, respects, I think, finance and business ops a bit more than when we first started. I think a lot of that is
184 00:24:39.920 ⇒ 00:24:40.710 Allyson Choi: just…
185 00:24:42.530 ⇒ 00:24:55.129 Allyson Choi: building strong relationships and working on that. Because I think, especially if you… if you want to be a chief of staff, especially if that’s a move you want to make in the next few years.
186 00:24:56.210 ⇒ 00:25:11.119 Allyson Choi: Yeah, I think oftentimes, especially in more traditional businesses, such as the one I’m in, you may be one of the youngest people in the room, which also has its own set of, like, power dynamics. There’s something to be aware of.
187 00:25:11.970 ⇒ 00:25:13.550 Amber Lin: I see. I think…
188 00:25:13.970 ⇒ 00:25:31.750 Amber Lin: That is very important, because in my current organization, so Robert’s company, it is very, very young, so I… I wouldn’t have the issue of age, but I think I would have the issue of experience and leadership, because ultimately, this is…
189 00:25:31.890 ⇒ 00:25:39.959 Amber Lin: my first semi-leadership role, because I did project management, but that’s also leading without any authority.
190 00:25:39.960 ⇒ 00:25:40.530 Allyson Choi: Yeah.
191 00:25:40.530 ⇒ 00:25:44.959 Amber Lin: So, I think transitioning, there’s also that problem, having…
192 00:25:45.380 ⇒ 00:25:55.989 Amber Lin: If there’s other strategic projects that I’m asked to take on, or I want to take on, then it’s competing with all the other priorities for the client projects, and I think…
193 00:25:56.290 ⇒ 00:26:01.110 Amber Lin: Having other people listen is also a very hard task.
194 00:26:01.560 ⇒ 00:26:03.040 Allyson Choi: Yeah, definitely.
195 00:26:04.110 ⇒ 00:26:17.880 Amber Lin: Yeah. I don’t want to take up too much of your time, I know there’s about 4 minutes left, and is there any resources you could… you would recommend, or anyone you recommend I should talk to about, about more on this role?
196 00:26:18.800 ⇒ 00:26:28.199 Allyson Choi: You know, my main… my main thing was gonna be the HBS article, but you already read it. I actually… this is a huge caveat.
197 00:26:28.570 ⇒ 00:26:38.150 Allyson Choi: I don’t… I just saw this on, like, some ad, so I have no idea if this is a…
198 00:26:38.470 ⇒ 00:26:40.809 Allyson Choi: valuable use of your time. However.
199 00:26:41.280 ⇒ 00:26:45.360 Allyson Choi: I did see… have you heard of… Leland Events?
200 00:26:45.570 ⇒ 00:26:46.950 Amber Lin: No, I haven’t!
201 00:26:46.950 ⇒ 00:26:50.580 Allyson Choi: Okay, so I’ll just forward you… I’ll just forward you stuff, but….
202 00:26:50.580 ⇒ 00:26:51.080 Amber Lin: Okay.
203 00:26:51.080 ⇒ 00:26:58.550 Allyson Choi: It seems like it’s… they have sessions, or, like, an Ask Me Anything… about…
204 00:26:58.680 ⇒ 00:27:07.320 Allyson Choi: breaking into different types of roles. So, I saw one about breaking into business ops and strategy, myths and tips about chief of staff roles. So, I think
205 00:27:08.340 ⇒ 00:27:23.629 Allyson Choi: seeing things like this, that said, I haven’t attended any myself, so I can’t speak to how high quality they are, could at least be eye-opening in some way. So, I’ll send you links, so that you can, like, poke around their website and see
206 00:27:24.480 ⇒ 00:27:29.510 Allyson Choi: what… What it’s all about, in case it’s helpful.
207 00:27:29.510 ⇒ 00:27:44.669 Amber Lin: Okay, that’s awesome. And I guess my… I’ll take a look at that. I was also researching this morning about different forums and different meetings, but I don’t think I’ve come across the event yet. I think that’s the… that’s going to be the most helpful part.
208 00:27:44.670 ⇒ 00:27:46.890 Allyson Choi: Yeah. And it’s all on Zoom, too, so it’s very exciting.
209 00:27:47.260 ⇒ 00:28:05.809 Allyson Choi: Awesome. Yeah, so check it out. Hopefully it’s helpful. It seems like it could be. I was thinking about checking it out myself, just to, like, see, because I was curious how they run these events, but as I said, this week was just absolutely insane.
210 00:28:06.760 ⇒ 00:28:12.999 Amber Lin: I think my last question is about, sort of, your… your career direction and…
211 00:28:13.300 ⇒ 00:28:22.420 Amber Lin: how you ended up in BizOps, and where you want to go there. Like, is BizOps something you really want to do? Like, how does….
212 00:28:22.420 ⇒ 00:28:23.500 Allyson Choi: That’s a great question.
213 00:28:23.500 ⇒ 00:28:24.710 Amber Lin: Ended up there.
214 00:28:25.070 ⇒ 00:28:35.750 Allyson Choi: That is a great question, and to be honest with you, I’m still trying to figure it out. I… yeah, and I’m okay going over, a few minutes past time, but…
215 00:28:36.250 ⇒ 00:28:43.039 Allyson Choi: I studied finance, and… I think I’ve worked in many finance and strategy roles, and…
216 00:28:43.430 ⇒ 00:28:49.460 Allyson Choi: I think there’s some aspects of it I like, and there are some aspects of it that I don’t like as much.
217 00:28:49.570 ⇒ 00:29:08.730 Allyson Choi: And I also don’t wake up, you know, interested about and excited about, like, interest rates, for example, which my corporate finance team was… they were very… they loved finance, and I don’t love finance the way that my boss on that team loved finance. It would be great if I did, but unfortunately, I’m not there. So…
218 00:29:09.400 ⇒ 00:29:27.509 Allyson Choi: I think for me, at this stage in my career, I’ve now been working for over 7 years. I think I… in all of those years I’ve been at Disney, I think I’d like to consider, maybe trying out different environments, and maybe working at a smaller company, or working
219 00:29:28.650 ⇒ 00:29:31.139 Allyson Choi: For a product that’s maybe more…
220 00:29:31.630 ⇒ 00:29:39.270 Allyson Choi: like, mission-driven or purposeful? Not to say that the Disney product is not purposeful, but I think working at a huge…
221 00:29:39.450 ⇒ 00:29:41.280 Allyson Choi: conglomerate companies.
222 00:29:41.280 ⇒ 00:29:41.720 Amber Lin: Huh.
223 00:29:41.720 ⇒ 00:29:52.050 Allyson Choi: has its pros and its cons. I think a big con is that it’s very bureaucratic, slow to move, takes forever to get things done. I know how to cut through all the red tape now, but I think…
224 00:29:52.320 ⇒ 00:30:10.909 Allyson Choi: this sort of business runs a lot slower than maybe a more smaller, nimble company could. So I think I’m curious about that. I do think ops, generally speaking, you know, has more of a broad scope than just pure finance, which is why I’m interested in that, because like I said, I don’t…
225 00:30:10.910 ⇒ 00:30:13.200 Allyson Choi: Love finance for the sake of finance.
226 00:30:13.200 ⇒ 00:30:15.850 Allyson Choi: … And…
227 00:30:16.160 ⇒ 00:30:24.169 Allyson Choi: Yeah, I think I’m kind of approaching, like, a transition period. One thing… I have two things that I’ll say about being a Chief of staff.
228 00:30:24.470 ⇒ 00:30:26.570 Allyson Choi: Is that… It’s…
229 00:30:28.300 ⇒ 00:30:35.719 Allyson Choi: there’s… I think there’s a lot of opportunities for Chief of Staff to do many different things after. For example, in…
230 00:30:35.830 ⇒ 00:30:38.279 Allyson Choi: my technical business, I could have…
231 00:30:38.680 ⇒ 00:30:53.899 Allyson Choi: I could eventually maybe own a portfolio, so, like, leading a few projects in the R&D space, or, you know, making good relationships with other executives and going to go work for their teams. But at the same time.
232 00:30:54.160 ⇒ 00:31:17.170 Allyson Choi: I think some people might find that being a chief of staff makes you kind of, like, pigeonholed if you do it too long, so I feel like it’s something that you’d want to do for maybe a couple of years, but maybe not for, like, 10 years. You know, you kind of want to get that experience and apply it to something new and elevated. That’s at least one person’s perspective. And then another thing is that
233 00:31:17.170 ⇒ 00:31:21.030 Allyson Choi: It’s… If it’s of utmost importance.
234 00:31:21.260 ⇒ 00:31:28.779 Allyson Choi: that when you are a chief of staff for someone, that you are really aligned with that executive. …
235 00:31:28.920 ⇒ 00:31:31.580 Allyson Choi: when I took this job, I…
236 00:31:31.860 ⇒ 00:31:41.240 Allyson Choi: was brought on, the executive that I was going to support then left… What? Before I even started, and so I didn’t have a boss for a while.
237 00:31:41.690 ⇒ 00:31:52.069 Allyson Choi: And then they hired someone into the role. And I think he had a very different working style than I did. He was a nice guy, but I think we… I just didn’t…
238 00:31:52.420 ⇒ 00:31:58.800 Allyson Choi: gel as well with him as I had with previous bosses. And… I think for….
239 00:31:58.800 ⇒ 00:31:59.759 Amber Lin: It’s really hard.
240 00:31:59.760 ⇒ 00:32:06.809 Allyson Choi: Yeah, and I think especially for a Chief of staff role, like, you have to be, like, on the same page.
241 00:32:07.080 ⇒ 00:32:09.799 Allyson Choi: Because you were, like, almost an extension of that executive
242 00:32:10.260 ⇒ 00:32:18.689 Allyson Choi: Right? And so I think that’s really important. Obviously, I didn’t really get much of a choice, right? Because I had no idea that the guy, the other guy was leaving.
243 00:32:18.690 ⇒ 00:32:19.150 Amber Lin: Huh.
244 00:32:19.150 ⇒ 00:32:28.339 Allyson Choi: But I think that’s really something important to suss out in the interview process, like, is this person a good leader that I would want to work for?
245 00:32:28.540 ⇒ 00:32:37.769 Allyson Choi: will they support me in my goals, in my development? Will they back me up, generally, if, like, things go wrong? …
246 00:32:38.100 ⇒ 00:32:40.649 Allyson Choi: Things like that, so I would say that’s…
247 00:32:41.120 ⇒ 00:32:47.110 Allyson Choi: it seems like an obvious point, but it’s, like, very important, because I think it would really make or break the job.
248 00:32:47.110 ⇒ 00:32:53.820 Amber Lin: I had another point on the boundaries you can set… you should set as a Chief of staff, because you’re essentially…
249 00:32:54.100 ⇒ 00:33:07.700 Amber Lin: partly someone’s executive assistant, and partly someone’s part of their brain, so I was wondering how you set personal boundaries in work, because what if the exec works at 9pm in a day?
250 00:33:07.700 ⇒ 00:33:23.619 Allyson Choi: I shouldn’t be expected to work at that time, but… Yeah. How do you deal with that? Oh, that’s such a good question. Okay, in my personal experience, that wasn’t too much of a challenge, is because my executive worked on the East Coast.
251 00:33:23.620 ⇒ 00:33:24.459 Amber Lin: Oh, I see.
252 00:33:24.460 ⇒ 00:33:40.699 Allyson Choi: So he… when he was working at, like, 7 or 8 PM, his time, it was, you know, 4 or 5 my time, so that was not bad at all. However, I do have a close colleague of mine who works for an executive
253 00:33:41.140 ⇒ 00:33:51.410 Allyson Choi: who is… very fast-paced, It’s trying to get a lot of things done, and my colleague friend has…
254 00:33:52.690 ⇒ 00:33:56.259 Allyson Choi: he’s a bit of a workaholic as well, so I don’t.
255 00:33:56.260 ⇒ 00:33:57.890 Amber Lin: I guess not. They fit so well.
256 00:33:57.890 ⇒ 00:34:08.480 Allyson Choi: Yeah, they fit quite well. However, when I look at that, that’s not how I want to live. You know, I don’t want to be working 24-7.
257 00:34:08.790 ⇒ 00:34:14.729 Allyson Choi: And so… it’s… I think you can only…
258 00:34:15.050 ⇒ 00:34:20.179 Allyson Choi: You can do your best to draw boundaries, but at the end of the day, like, if that executive
259 00:34:20.940 ⇒ 00:34:26.800 Allyson Choi: believes that they need someone who is at their beck and call 24-7. That may not be the right…
260 00:34:26.929 ⇒ 00:34:39.239 Allyson Choi: match for you, right? If that’s a boundary that you’re trying to, like, firmly stick to. When you’re early in your career, I think my perspective is, like, when you’re early in your career, you can kind of afford to, like, work a little bit longer, …
261 00:34:39.810 ⇒ 00:34:45.150 Allyson Choi: Just to, like, soak up the experience and try to, like, grow as much as you can.
262 00:34:45.610 ⇒ 00:34:54.389 Allyson Choi: But I feel like… you can… Set boundaries by… saying…
263 00:34:55.889 ⇒ 00:34:58.520 Allyson Choi: Hey, you know, if you send a message
264 00:34:58.750 ⇒ 00:35:13.949 Allyson Choi: after hours, is that something that you need a reply to same day, or is that something that I can respond to tomorrow, just to see what they expect? And I feel like there’s definitely executives I’ve worked for before who are like, oh no, I’m just sending stuff after hours, because that…
265 00:35:13.950 ⇒ 00:35:20.130 Allyson Choi: that’s what works for me, but, like, no need to respond, you can respond tomorrow. So I think it’s just understanding what they need.
266 00:35:20.460 ⇒ 00:35:21.060 Allyson Choi: And….
267 00:35:21.750 ⇒ 00:35:26.440 Allyson Choi: … If that doesn’t work for them, honestly.
268 00:35:26.750 ⇒ 00:35:34.189 Allyson Choi: I think you have to decide if that’s a sacrifice you’re willing to make to work for that person, right?
269 00:35:35.340 ⇒ 00:35:42.949 Amber Lin: I see. Thank you so much for this call, and it was very insightful, and you gave me a lot of good tips.
270 00:35:43.110 ⇒ 00:35:44.220 Allyson Choi: Yeah, of course.
271 00:35:44.220 ⇒ 00:35:49.380 Amber Lin: And I would love to stay in touch on… on my progress, because I think…
272 00:35:49.630 ⇒ 00:35:56.060 Amber Lin: My company’s thinking of transitioning me to a chief of staff, because right now I’m helping them
273 00:35:56.080 ⇒ 00:36:14.060 Amber Lin: hire for the PMO, because right now I’m a project manager, helping them set up the PMO department with different processes, and helping with hiring. So I think once they hire someone, I will start to set up my Chief of Staff journey, but then I… then I…
274 00:36:14.280 ⇒ 00:36:22.239 Amber Lin: partly, my CEO will support me, but I also have to figure out what that role entails, because nobody in the company has done a Chief of Staff role before.
275 00:36:22.240 ⇒ 00:36:27.450 Allyson Choi: Yeah. Well, that’s daunting, but also, like, really exciting, because you can kind of define it for yourself.
276 00:36:27.970 ⇒ 00:36:33.929 Allyson Choi: at least write up some proposal about what work you would like to do, which I think is really cool.
277 00:36:34.090 ⇒ 00:36:39.869 Amber Lin: Yeah, and that’s why I was super curious about what you did, and then if I could model part of it off of that.
278 00:36:39.870 ⇒ 00:36:51.999 Allyson Choi: Yeah, I think that sounds… that sounds really neat. So let me, send you the link to this… this thing that I mentioned, and, see if that also helps you think of other ideas.
279 00:36:52.000 ⇒ 00:36:52.750 Amber Lin: Okay.
280 00:36:53.050 ⇒ 00:36:54.460 Amber Lin: Appreciate it.
281 00:36:54.460 ⇒ 00:36:55.130 Allyson Choi: Yeah, of course.
282 00:36:55.130 ⇒ 00:36:56.280 Amber Lin: See you on my journey.
283 00:36:56.280 ⇒ 00:36:58.170 Allyson Choi: Awesome. Sounds good, Amber. Thank you. Bye.
284 00:36:58.170 ⇒ 00:36:58.660 Amber Lin: Bye!