Meeting Title: Pre-Meeting discussion (PM talk with Alex) Date: 2025-05-26 Meeting participants: Uttam Kumaran, Amber Lin
WEBVTT
1 00:02:05.950 ⇒ 00:02:07.160 Uttam Kumaran: Hello!
2 00:02:08.690 ⇒ 00:02:10.630 Amber Lin: Hi! Can you hear me?
3 00:02:10.630 ⇒ 00:02:11.490 Uttam Kumaran: Yes.
4 00:02:12.090 ⇒ 00:02:15.919 Amber Lin: Okay, happy holiday feels weird.
5 00:02:16.080 ⇒ 00:02:16.820 Amber Lin: 2.
6 00:02:17.330 ⇒ 00:02:20.300 Amber Lin: It it still feels like a Sunday to me, because I.
7 00:02:20.300 ⇒ 00:02:20.930 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
8 00:02:20.930 ⇒ 00:02:24.010 Amber Lin: Saturday. Are you guys? Are you back home now?
9 00:02:24.010 ⇒ 00:02:25.440 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I just got back like.
10 00:02:25.440 ⇒ 00:02:26.440 Amber Lin: I see.
11 00:02:27.090 ⇒ 00:02:29.260 Uttam Kumaran: So like few hours ago. I am.
12 00:02:30.000 ⇒ 00:02:31.008 Uttam Kumaran: I need a nap.
13 00:02:31.260 ⇒ 00:02:41.529 Amber Lin: I know I did. I did not expect this to happen on Monday, but then I think he does not have time on Tuesday, because he’s working his job, so he only has time. Monday.
14 00:02:41.710 ⇒ 00:02:45.990 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I mean, you can let me know if it’s I think it’s worth it to at least.
15 00:02:46.270 ⇒ 00:02:48.160 Amber Lin: I think so too. I’m I’m willing.
16 00:02:48.160 ⇒ 00:02:49.429 Uttam Kumaran: And then you can kind of see.
17 00:02:49.430 ⇒ 00:02:50.200 Amber Lin: Yeah.
18 00:02:50.200 ⇒ 00:02:55.989 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, you can kind of see, like, we don’t have to use a full hour. But I would just like him to be in your camp. Basically.
19 00:02:57.560 ⇒ 00:02:58.140 Amber Lin: Yeah.
20 00:02:58.140 ⇒ 00:02:59.859 Uttam Kumaran: And just be a resource. So.
21 00:03:00.310 ⇒ 00:03:06.939 Amber Lin: Totally. And I kind of want us to talk about what he can be helpful with.
22 00:03:07.070 ⇒ 00:03:16.060 Amber Lin: And essentially, what do you think about the current like, what? What types of questions to ask? Because, remember, last time we asked
23 00:03:17.096 ⇒ 00:03:20.640 Amber Lin: he’s very high level and.
24 00:03:20.640 ⇒ 00:03:21.310 Uttam Kumaran: Yes.
25 00:03:21.310 ⇒ 00:03:28.760 Amber Lin: Like a lot of the systems we don’t even have in place, or might be a burden to have in place, because we’re so small.
26 00:03:28.900 ⇒ 00:03:36.660 Amber Lin: and so I’m kind of lost on well, not lost. Confused on what we will exactly ask him for.
27 00:03:38.310 ⇒ 00:03:43.570 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah. So I think probably that’s even a good question is to ask him like, Hey, where do you feel like your
28 00:03:43.790 ⇒ 00:03:47.940 Uttam Kumaran: your skill set lies. I you know. The reason why I wanted to talk to him is.
29 00:03:48.290 ⇒ 00:03:50.570 Uttam Kumaran: he will show us really like what
30 00:03:50.960 ⇒ 00:03:56.309 Uttam Kumaran: like the best of the best are doing, and of course it’s up to us to take like
31 00:03:56.950 ⇒ 00:03:58.689 Uttam Kumaran: what we can do. You know.
32 00:03:58.690 ⇒ 00:03:59.280 Amber Lin: Hmm.
33 00:03:59.551 ⇒ 00:04:04.170 Uttam Kumaran: You know. So for me, the biggest thing like on my side, I have questions on like
34 00:04:04.410 ⇒ 00:04:08.400 Uttam Kumaran: how to hire great people like, how do we?
35 00:04:08.530 ⇒ 00:04:14.320 Uttam Kumaran: What are some like things that we shouldn’t compromise on in terms of rituals?
36 00:04:14.857 ⇒ 00:04:17.719 Amber Lin: Like you know, we talked about like.
37 00:04:17.910 ⇒ 00:04:24.170 Uttam Kumaran: Retro and planning, and all these things I kind of want to know, like, what are things that we should just like, not
38 00:04:24.400 ⇒ 00:04:27.780 Uttam Kumaran: compromise on at all like we should, 100% do.
39 00:04:27.950 ⇒ 00:04:28.460 Amber Lin: Yeah.
40 00:04:30.130 ⇒ 00:04:35.269 Uttam Kumaran: you know. And then the 3rd thing is like, yeah, I would love. I would love for him to talk about just like.
41 00:04:36.180 ⇒ 00:04:39.360 Uttam Kumaran: How if he was starting over in his career
42 00:04:39.540 ⇒ 00:04:41.460 Uttam Kumaran: sort of like at our level, like
43 00:04:41.580 ⇒ 00:04:44.780 Uttam Kumaran: you know what he would try to implement first.st
44 00:04:44.780 ⇒ 00:04:45.270 Amber Lin: Hmm.
45 00:04:45.505 ⇒ 00:04:49.280 Uttam Kumaran: But you know those are those. Those are the things that I have like. I think
46 00:04:49.770 ⇒ 00:04:54.489 Uttam Kumaran: I I think it’s helpful for you to go really deep on, like
47 00:04:54.950 ⇒ 00:04:58.859 Uttam Kumaran: the document that you have set up and and talk through that.
48 00:04:58.860 ⇒ 00:04:59.610 Amber Lin: Okay.
49 00:04:59.610 ⇒ 00:05:03.410 Uttam Kumaran: For me. You know my leverage is one
50 00:05:03.570 ⇒ 00:05:11.410 Uttam Kumaran: we’ll be. We’re building this function right? So if I need to go hire someone to lead the function, or we need to bring on another. Pm.
51 00:05:11.410 ⇒ 00:05:11.750 Amber Lin: Yeah.
52 00:05:11.750 ⇒ 00:05:18.800 Uttam Kumaran: And I want to know what to look for but I’m also sort of interested in
53 00:05:19.330 ⇒ 00:05:24.150 Uttam Kumaran: like, although I’m curious about the specifics, I’m more leaning on.
54 00:05:25.118 ⇒ 00:05:26.960 Amber Lin: High level strategy for him.
55 00:05:26.960 ⇒ 00:05:29.089 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
56 00:05:29.430 ⇒ 00:05:38.699 Amber Lin: Okay, that’s really helpful. Because last time we asked him about specifics, it did not was not as insightful because he gave us very textbook things, but it.
57 00:05:38.700 ⇒ 00:05:39.080 Uttam Kumaran: Because.
58 00:05:39.080 ⇒ 00:05:41.359 Amber Lin: Textbook is textbook for a reason.
59 00:05:41.520 ⇒ 00:05:42.290 Uttam Kumaran: Yes.
60 00:05:43.930 ⇒ 00:05:45.160 Amber Lin: Okay.
61 00:05:45.760 ⇒ 00:05:51.480 Amber Lin: I will. I can work with Hashiri to ask more questions. Did you have a chance to look at that document?
62 00:05:52.514 ⇒ 00:05:54.890 Uttam Kumaran: I just did now.
63 00:05:58.090 ⇒ 00:05:59.440 Uttam Kumaran: Like, I,
64 00:05:59.740 ⇒ 00:06:04.640 Uttam Kumaran: I guess, like I, I think this is a good document to share with them and talk about like
65 00:06:06.260 ⇒ 00:06:09.479 Uttam Kumaran: we’re trying to create basically like our
66 00:06:10.190 ⇒ 00:06:13.150 Uttam Kumaran: just like Bible for project management.
67 00:06:13.852 ⇒ 00:06:19.000 Uttam Kumaran: So I think it’s I think this is a good place to start. I mean for me again.
68 00:06:19.000 ⇒ 00:06:19.370 Amber Lin: Yeah.
69 00:06:19.370 ⇒ 00:06:21.019 Uttam Kumaran: At the high level I want.
70 00:06:21.160 ⇒ 00:06:24.490 Uttam Kumaran: I think, a lot about this life, this life cycle. So.
71 00:06:24.950 ⇒ 00:06:27.979 Uttam Kumaran: From the cell to the close
72 00:06:28.100 ⇒ 00:06:31.850 Uttam Kumaran: to starting to then the renewal and expansion.
73 00:06:32.080 ⇒ 00:06:32.480 Amber Lin: Yeah.
74 00:06:34.080 ⇒ 00:06:34.909 Uttam Kumaran: Right, and I see.
75 00:06:34.910 ⇒ 00:07:02.359 Amber Lin: Yeah, I guess my, what I wanted from you is I created this document based on a few things that Robert sent me, and then based on my own understanding of what’s going on in the firm, I think for one from you is how closely does this align with actual things that’s happening in our firm. And then what we can get from Alex is how he views this. Vm, but I wanted to meet with you to make sure. Okay, these are not just AI hallucinations.
76 00:07:02.760 ⇒ 00:07:03.539 Amber Lin: And so I.
77 00:07:03.540 ⇒ 00:07:11.140 Uttam Kumaran: No, I think I think these are all. I think these are all fine. I care less about like I don’t need his help on like
78 00:07:11.510 ⇒ 00:07:13.530 Uttam Kumaran: case studies, co-marketing.
79 00:07:14.240 ⇒ 00:07:18.050 Amber Lin: I don’t care about. I don’t need his help on marketing stuff like we’re fine on that.
80 00:07:18.784 ⇒ 00:07:21.279 Uttam Kumaran: Right? So stage 5,
81 00:07:21.840 ⇒ 00:07:28.589 Uttam Kumaran: I’m like less interested in. And I don’t. I don’t think he’s gonna be super valuable for.
82 00:07:28.590 ⇒ 00:07:29.230 Amber Lin: Yeah.
83 00:07:29.230 ⇒ 00:07:30.270 Uttam Kumaran: I think
84 00:07:32.270 ⇒ 00:07:34.830 Amber Lin: Mostly the middle middle, 3.
85 00:07:34.830 ⇒ 00:07:36.330 Uttam Kumaran: 3 and 4 really.
86 00:07:36.620 ⇒ 00:07:37.340 Amber Lin: Yeah.
87 00:07:38.480 ⇒ 00:07:43.170 Uttam Kumaran: Like. I think we do a good job of doing what we asked for. I think it’s like
88 00:07:43.930 ⇒ 00:07:48.359 Uttam Kumaran: like pool parts is a great example, where exactly what I thought is gonna is happening, where.
89 00:07:49.210 ⇒ 00:07:59.910 Uttam Kumaran: They were. They’re kind of like they wanted this AI thing. And then they’re like, Well, time box it, and we did it. And it’s working great. And then now they’re like trying to expand. This is where we have them on the hook.
90 00:08:00.200 ⇒ 00:08:02.340 Uttam Kumaran: I want to sign a bigger deal right? And so.
91 00:08:02.910 ⇒ 00:08:06.740 Uttam Kumaran: I think a couple of things that are really stand out to me. Is this like Qbr
92 00:08:06.940 ⇒ 00:08:08.929 Uttam Kumaran: like, how do you go from? Just like.
93 00:08:09.980 ⇒ 00:08:13.929 Uttam Kumaran: And I’ll and I’ll put this in here. It’s like, put it in a comment.
94 00:08:13.930 ⇒ 00:08:22.510 Uttam Kumaran: How do we go from the daily rituals to higher level conversations.
95 00:08:23.190 ⇒ 00:08:30.170 Uttam Kumaran: About the client’s success with biz stakeholders.
96 00:08:32.534 ⇒ 00:08:39.409 Uttam Kumaran: So like, I wanna know, like beyond, just like, oh, we did this on a day to day basis. We did this on a bi-weekly basis.
97 00:08:39.419 ⇒ 00:08:39.819 Amber Lin: Basis.
98 00:08:39.820 ⇒ 00:08:42.569 Uttam Kumaran: Like, are we are, we? Can we present outcomes
99 00:08:42.679 ⇒ 00:08:45.830 Uttam Kumaran: right like, how do we actually go to like presenting on outcomes.
100 00:08:48.420 ⇒ 00:08:52.059 Uttam Kumaran: And then, yeah, I think the biggest thing is like, we struggle with
101 00:08:52.460 ⇒ 00:08:57.030 Uttam Kumaran: sharing outcomes, like, I think that is one thing where we’re not
102 00:08:57.530 ⇒ 00:09:01.850 Uttam Kumaran: where. I don’t think we do a good job of biasing towards
103 00:09:02.230 ⇒ 00:09:10.110 Uttam Kumaran: these 5 things got done. And here’s how it impacted you. I think, like we’re getting closer to that.
104 00:09:10.570 ⇒ 00:09:11.829 Uttam Kumaran: But we’re still.
105 00:09:11.830 ⇒ 00:09:17.629 Amber Lin: Yeah, we’re getting close to the stage of these 5 things get got done, but not the impact part.
106 00:09:18.160 ⇒ 00:09:32.319 Uttam Kumaran: Exactly. Yeah. I I agree, like, before, we were just like going with the motion. And we couldn’t even tell you what got done. Now we’re like, okay, things are getting done. The next thing is that we have to prove that, like what they did or like, they got used.
107 00:09:32.320 ⇒ 00:09:33.080 Amber Lin: Their money, and.
108 00:09:33.080 ⇒ 00:09:44.650 Uttam Kumaran: ABC is close. I think, pool parts on the data side. We’re pretty far urban stems. We did a really good job on that Javi, we didn’t do a good job, Eden. We’re doing okay.
109 00:09:45.110 ⇒ 00:09:56.190 Uttam Kumaran: So that’s other thing is like. And this may be just like, Okay, cool. We need a meeting every month where all we do is, do that? Okay? What is the then Alex should say, what’s the best format for that meeting? Who should be there.
110 00:09:56.190 ⇒ 00:09:56.720 Amber Lin: And.
111 00:09:56.720 ⇒ 00:10:01.190 Uttam Kumaran: How should we run that right like that stuff that like we should just use him as like a cheat code.
112 00:10:05.580 ⇒ 00:10:06.490 Amber Lin: cool.
113 00:10:12.650 ⇒ 00:10:14.349 Uttam Kumaran: You know, that’s so cool. That’s
114 00:10:15.780 ⇒ 00:10:19.159 Uttam Kumaran: yeah. I feel like, that’s a lot of what I’m thinking about mainly.
115 00:10:19.550 ⇒ 00:10:20.240 Amber Lin: Yeah.
116 00:10:30.080 ⇒ 00:10:36.880 Amber Lin: I’ll go. I’ll go ask strategy. I’ll go talk to Gbt about this. We’re meeting him in 20 min
117 00:10:38.940 ⇒ 00:10:39.899 Amber Lin: should be good.
118 00:10:43.360 ⇒ 00:10:44.210 Uttam Kumaran: Okay. Cool.
119 00:10:44.210 ⇒ 00:10:44.890 Amber Lin: Okay.
120 00:10:45.130 ⇒ 00:10:45.570 Uttam Kumaran: What else?
121 00:10:45.905 ⇒ 00:10:46.240 Amber Lin: Right.
122 00:10:46.700 ⇒ 00:10:52.530 Amber Lin: Oh, not that much, I mean, if we’re like.
123 00:10:52.960 ⇒ 00:11:00.720 Amber Lin: if we’re on already, do you have other things you need to catch up on right now. I kind of want to talk about ABC. But I also booked a meeting for us tomorrow.
124 00:11:01.620 ⇒ 00:11:04.320 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, let’s talk about that. I’m just doing like busy work. Honestly.
125 00:11:04.320 ⇒ 00:11:05.530 Amber Lin: Okay, okay.
126 00:11:08.380 ⇒ 00:11:10.570 Amber Lin: Like, I was writing it in my reflection, I,
127 00:11:10.950 ⇒ 00:11:17.890 Amber Lin: this feels like it’s up in the air, probably because they move slower than what I’m used to.
128 00:11:18.280 ⇒ 00:11:26.299 Amber Lin: And because usage is not there. And so I know somewhere inside me. I know this is not impactful because they’re not using it.
129 00:11:26.300 ⇒ 00:11:30.500 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, what happened when you went in it virtually.
130 00:11:30.500 ⇒ 00:11:34.760 Amber Lin: I went. It was very. They were very enthusiastic about it, but
131 00:11:35.020 ⇒ 00:11:42.370 Amber Lin: the enthusiasm doesn’t really translate into usage, I would say, cause they.
132 00:11:42.790 ⇒ 00:11:58.719 Amber Lin: I think the initial wave excitement has passed, and right now it’s discipline that will get them to use it, and they haven’t been really on it on their end because I can’t go talk like email them, or message them every single day. And I need
133 00:11:59.010 ⇒ 00:12:05.899 Amber Lin: them to help me on that. That’s 1 thing about usage number one and 2 is
134 00:12:06.916 ⇒ 00:12:15.310 Amber Lin: I, I probably it’s just because technic technicalities on this project are not that complicated. So yeah.
135 00:12:15.310 ⇒ 00:12:21.559 Amber Lin: somehow feel like, we’re cheating their money because we’re not doing a lot technically.
136 00:12:22.161 ⇒ 00:12:25.930 Amber Lin: So there’s this internal guilt that I have.
137 00:12:25.930 ⇒ 00:12:26.310 Uttam Kumaran: Fair.
138 00:12:26.863 ⇒ 00:12:35.290 Amber Lin: Oh, but we talked about all these things, but realistically what we actually did for them. It’s like 2 h of work.
139 00:12:35.290 ⇒ 00:12:36.940 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, so, like, okay.
140 00:12:36.940 ⇒ 00:12:37.590 Amber Lin: I think there’s.
141 00:12:37.590 ⇒ 00:12:38.590 Uttam Kumaran: Those 2.
142 00:12:38.940 ⇒ 00:12:41.360 Uttam Kumaran: What else? Let’s go one by one.
143 00:12:41.590 ⇒ 00:12:44.869 Amber Lin: Yeah, let me go check what? I what I wrote.
144 00:12:48.410 ⇒ 00:12:49.969 Amber Lin: Give me one second.
145 00:12:59.860 ⇒ 00:13:27.789 Amber Lin: Yeah. And then I know that what we other things we want to do of the next level is significantly, technically more challenging, of, say, creating those knowledge graphs and tagging everything and making that work number one to making. Say, when you make updates, actually insert it into the central Doc rather than having someone manually do it. And also with the trainer bot of
146 00:13:28.390 ⇒ 00:13:31.390 Amber Lin: sorry the Andy of how to
147 00:13:31.760 ⇒ 00:13:34.860 Amber Lin: incorporate more knowledge. Clean up the whole system.
148 00:13:35.130 ⇒ 00:13:41.370 Amber Lin: It. It’s just we’re moving a lot slower right now, and it doesn’t. It doesn’t feel very natural for me.
149 00:13:42.160 ⇒ 00:13:46.669 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah. So there’s a couple of things. So on the 1st one.
150 00:13:48.420 ⇒ 00:13:58.720 Uttam Kumaran: this one is probably out of the 3, probably the the most challenging, like, maybe let’s talk about this at the end. So the second one is like about yeah, like
151 00:13:58.870 ⇒ 00:14:02.820 Uttam Kumaran: imposter syndrome, or or it’s less about imposters. More of like
152 00:14:03.490 ⇒ 00:14:07.621 Uttam Kumaran: we’re they’re paying money, and we’re not doing anything. So there’s a couple of things. One
153 00:14:09.560 ⇒ 00:14:11.849 Uttam Kumaran: there’s 2 ways to think about pricing right.
154 00:14:11.850 ⇒ 00:14:12.280 Amber Lin: -
155 00:14:12.280 ⇒ 00:14:20.299 Uttam Kumaran: I would say, there’s 1 way, if you like you just you scan the market right? So if you look at other organizations that would offer what we did.
156 00:14:20.720 ⇒ 00:14:28.389 Uttam Kumaran: We are actually, significantly cheaper. So value is not in the cost of
157 00:14:28.590 ⇒ 00:14:30.949 Uttam Kumaran: doing. You want price to be.
158 00:14:31.300 ⇒ 00:14:34.839 Uttam Kumaran: You want the price of your service to be as close to the value delivered.
159 00:14:35.410 ⇒ 00:14:40.510 Uttam Kumaran: Right? And so if you were like, Hey, I want to come mow your lawn,
160 00:14:40.930 ⇒ 00:14:45.120 Uttam Kumaran: okay, the option is for me to mow the lawn or for you to do it. Okay, that’s worth a hundred bucks.
161 00:14:45.420 ⇒ 00:14:53.940 Uttam Kumaran: If I’m building an AI system, what is the value to them? Right? If the value is there? They’re saving a hundred customers every month.
162 00:14:54.170 ⇒ 00:14:58.950 Uttam Kumaran: and that ends up being like some amount right? And our thing has something to do with that.
163 00:14:59.140 ⇒ 00:15:04.110 Uttam Kumaran: Then what we’re doing is cheap. Right? So I would think about it a lot less of like.
164 00:15:04.320 ⇒ 00:15:06.510 Uttam Kumaran: we’re only doing 2 h of work. In fact.
165 00:15:06.670 ⇒ 00:15:15.969 Uttam Kumaran: this is the. This is the genius behind the service that we’re offering, that for our business we are in a world where this service is so.
166 00:15:15.970 ⇒ 00:15:16.390 Amber Lin: Okay.
167 00:15:16.390 ⇒ 00:15:23.970 Uttam Kumaran: Difficult to come by that we’re able to service it and still make a high margin. To give you an example
168 00:15:24.410 ⇒ 00:15:29.770 Uttam Kumaran: like Google Google search. They run at like a 90% margin.
169 00:15:29.990 ⇒ 00:15:30.430 Amber Lin: Hmm.
170 00:15:30.430 ⇒ 00:15:41.840 Uttam Kumaran: Meaning they for every dollar and advertising that gets spent, they it takes them 10 cents to support that.
171 00:15:42.690 ⇒ 00:15:47.640 Uttam Kumaran: So they’re running almost like a million or 2 million dollars per employee in revenue.
172 00:15:49.160 ⇒ 00:15:52.399 Uttam Kumaran: Right? And so like you, I would think about it less of like
173 00:15:53.090 ⇒ 00:16:01.840 Uttam Kumaran: cheating. In fact, it’s just business. Right like there’s no there we provide a service that is valuable. There’s no other.
174 00:16:02.370 ⇒ 00:16:11.579 Uttam Kumaran: There’s no, there’s not much. There’s not another firm that would have done it at our price, point with the level of service, and so for us, for that we deserve the money. I think
175 00:16:11.840 ⇒ 00:16:15.670 Uttam Kumaran: the one another way to think about is you should separate yourself with like
176 00:16:15.950 ⇒ 00:16:23.520 Uttam Kumaran: we’re charging, and we’re doing nothing. It’s actually like we built this system really diligently to. So we don’t have to
177 00:16:23.640 ⇒ 00:16:41.029 Uttam Kumaran: do much as it goes right, and in fact, we signed the deal with them, explaining all these things. So there’s not like a con here. But I hear you like it may feel like, Wow, we’re just making this money and like we’re charging them every month, and we’re not doing any input. Well, we already did a ton of work.
178 00:16:41.760 ⇒ 00:16:49.020 Uttam Kumaran: And if this was way more available and software like this existed off the shelf for 20 bucks a month, and we wouldn’t have a business.
179 00:16:49.700 ⇒ 00:16:51.599 Uttam Kumaran: Right? So part of this is just like
180 00:16:51.840 ⇒ 00:17:03.180 Uttam Kumaran: we are taking advantage of the fact that supply for this type of work is very low like. There isn’t a lot of people that could do this. And so for that reason we have pricing power right.
181 00:17:03.390 ⇒ 00:17:03.770 Amber Lin: Hmm.
182 00:17:04.839 ⇒ 00:17:05.579 Amber Lin: Yeah.
183 00:17:05.720 ⇒ 00:17:06.329 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
184 00:17:07.740 ⇒ 00:17:15.499 Uttam Kumaran: again, I I think, fundamentally like, we’re not a nonprofit. So we will make as much money as we can make.
185 00:17:15.900 ⇒ 00:17:17.380 Amber Lin: Yeah, I think it’s just my.
186 00:17:17.380 ⇒ 00:17:17.740 Uttam Kumaran: Sorry.
187 00:17:18.359 ⇒ 00:17:19.129 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
188 00:17:19.130 ⇒ 00:17:26.069 Amber Lin: I do work or money I I was just thinking about it in that lens, but what you just told me was very helpful.
189 00:17:26.369 ⇒ 00:17:38.559 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, it’s it’s less of like you do work and then get money. That’s like the hourly model. Right? That’s what we’re trying to move off of as much as possible, because then we have to scale time. But the reason software is great is because you do thing once
190 00:17:38.829 ⇒ 00:17:44.339 Uttam Kumaran: and you sell it a hundred times. Do you think gusto rebuilds their software every for every person? No.
191 00:17:44.950 ⇒ 00:17:45.600 Amber Lin: Hmm.
192 00:17:45.600 ⇒ 00:17:46.759 Uttam Kumaran: So are they cheating?
193 00:17:50.160 ⇒ 00:17:54.599 Uttam Kumaran: You know. I think there’s, I think fundamentally, it’s like your people are paying for value.
194 00:17:55.570 ⇒ 00:18:01.769 Uttam Kumaran: For, for we would prefer them to actually get the value right. And so that’s why we’re having this conversation.
195 00:18:02.340 ⇒ 00:18:05.430 Uttam Kumaran: You know, the second thing is going back to like adoption, which is like.
196 00:18:06.310 ⇒ 00:18:20.410 Uttam Kumaran: The reason why we structure the deal that way is because I want them to use it more than they. The the original amount, like, I want them to move to the next tier, because that’s that’s our incentive. Their incentive is them. They expect the more people using it the better it goes. Right? So.
197 00:18:20.410 ⇒ 00:18:26.219 Amber Lin: Yeah, they’ve already well, concretely. They’ve already seen more upsells in past this month.
198 00:18:26.840 ⇒ 00:18:27.500 Uttam Kumaran: Great.
199 00:18:27.500 ⇒ 00:18:35.735 Amber Lin: Yeah, that’s I remember, I I think I saw in the email, or if I brought it up in a like, whoever brought it up in our meeting last week.
200 00:18:36.150 ⇒ 00:18:38.930 Amber Lin: not last week, the week before last week, and
201 00:18:39.170 ⇒ 00:18:55.969 Amber Lin: that’s great, and all of the other division managers were very, very excited, so every every person under Yvet that manages the different divisions. They were very excited. I think we’re probably rolling out to mechanical after
202 00:18:57.427 ⇒ 00:19:02.079 Amber Lin: after this I think they’re still deciding on which one to move to.
203 00:19:02.240 ⇒ 00:19:07.600 Amber Lin: But ultimately we’ll get a big spike initially, and
204 00:19:07.830 ⇒ 00:19:15.029 Amber Lin: I I think I wanna work with them to be more disciplined on. How do you guys actually make your agents use this?
205 00:19:16.510 ⇒ 00:19:19.170 Amber Lin: And they’ll just talk that you’re gonna use it.
206 00:19:21.600 ⇒ 00:19:23.390 Uttam Kumaran: That’s that’s the thing is like.
207 00:19:23.610 ⇒ 00:19:26.819 Uttam Kumaran: I don’t know. I mean, we could either handle this a couple of ways. One
208 00:19:27.310 ⇒ 00:19:31.340 Uttam Kumaran: we should understand for the people that are using it.
209 00:19:31.640 ⇒ 00:19:37.309 Uttam Kumaran: What like? What about them is gearing them like to to adopt it more.
210 00:19:38.380 ⇒ 00:19:39.720 Uttam Kumaran: The other thing is like.
211 00:19:39.860 ⇒ 00:19:47.240 Uttam Kumaran: and we should just continue to lean on that like, and we and we iterate. This is where like you have to do things that aren’t as scalable, which is.
212 00:19:47.930 ⇒ 00:19:49.880 Uttam Kumaran: you know, we have to go meet with.
213 00:19:50.030 ⇒ 00:19:56.310 Uttam Kumaran: Maybe we do one meeting where we interview someone every week. Right? And understand, like what they’re using it for, what they’re not.
214 00:19:56.420 ⇒ 00:20:00.069 Uttam Kumaran: Maybe like their communication style is off.
215 00:20:00.480 ⇒ 00:20:08.360 Uttam Kumaran: Maybe it is that office hours thing in that slack channel. Maybe we’ll just take some time right? And these are challenges that we should discuss
216 00:20:09.020 ⇒ 00:20:11.159 Uttam Kumaran: on that Friday meeting with the client.
217 00:20:11.760 ⇒ 00:20:12.280 Amber Lin: And.
218 00:20:12.280 ⇒ 00:20:25.030 Uttam Kumaran: Like, I don’t mind bringing this up. This isn’t a failure on our part. In fact, the thing works really well. This is something that we’re partner with them, and we should say, Hey, like we’re not seeing the adoption that we hope for here. All the things we tried.
219 00:20:25.030 ⇒ 00:20:25.770 Amber Lin: Okay.
220 00:20:25.770 ⇒ 00:20:31.740 Uttam Kumaran: What should we do? And and you can say for the adoption we’ve seen. It’s working like we are seeing upsells.
221 00:20:31.960 ⇒ 00:20:39.580 Uttam Kumaran: and we should have a discussion with them. Right? That’s where, like we don’t. The reason I like our business is, we don’t shy from those conversations. Right?
222 00:20:40.086 ⇒ 00:20:41.100 Uttam Kumaran: For example.
223 00:20:41.420 ⇒ 00:20:42.600 Amber Lin: Helpful. Yeah.
224 00:20:42.600 ⇒ 00:20:44.860 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, like when pool parts tells us.
225 00:20:44.970 ⇒ 00:20:52.979 Uttam Kumaran: hey, like, why don’t you guys go figure out what the questions like, go build the Eval stuff like, build a golden data set. I’m like, no.
226 00:20:53.400 ⇒ 00:20:54.370 Uttam Kumaran: we can’t.
227 00:20:54.370 ⇒ 00:20:54.940 Amber Lin: Okay, it’s that.
228 00:20:54.940 ⇒ 00:21:03.600 Uttam Kumaran: Guarantee success. Yeah, I can’t do my job unless you do that, and so go find someone else to build it for you. Without that I don’t care
229 00:21:03.700 ⇒ 00:21:09.409 Uttam Kumaran: right? And so this is where we we’re a good. We’re a partner. We’re not like, yes, people, you know.
230 00:21:09.410 ⇒ 00:21:09.830 Amber Lin: And.
231 00:21:10.187 ⇒ 00:21:12.690 Uttam Kumaran: We are a partner in them succeeding
232 00:21:13.216 ⇒ 00:21:26.230 Uttam Kumaran: and so I don’t mind having a tough conversation with them, you know, especially with those guys because we’ve done a lot of great work for them, and they know we’re committed. In fact, I think it would be a shame if we if we just did every Friday, and we’re like it’s all going well. And then.
233 00:21:26.590 ⇒ 00:21:27.550 Amber Lin: And then it blew up.
234 00:21:27.550 ⇒ 00:21:33.429 Uttam Kumaran: And then one day, like Matt’s like, so how many people are using it? Like 3 weeks online, we’re like, Oh, like, we’re still work. You know we we do the day.
235 00:21:33.430 ⇒ 00:21:34.980 Amber Lin: That’s the dance is what’s like a.
236 00:21:35.670 ⇒ 00:21:38.630 Uttam Kumaran: Dance is like your 1st instinct, because you
237 00:21:38.900 ⇒ 00:21:50.490 Uttam Kumaran: I don’t think you want like for us. I want to run into the fire like. I don’t care that it’s not getting adopted. I care that we’re not talking about it and like trying to solve that. That is the next problem to solve.
238 00:21:50.490 ⇒ 00:21:51.240 Amber Lin: Okay. Okay.
239 00:21:51.240 ⇒ 00:21:53.759 Uttam Kumaran: We’re not gonna get fired. Yeah, there’s no risk.
240 00:21:54.190 ⇒ 00:21:54.790 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
241 00:21:54.790 ⇒ 00:22:00.809 Amber Lin: This is really really helpful, because for the past few meetings my concern was okay. I need the client to be
242 00:22:01.150 ⇒ 00:22:06.519 Amber Lin: happy about our progress because I was like, I need this deal to get signed. I don’t want to break up.
243 00:22:06.520 ⇒ 00:22:11.330 Uttam Kumaran: Client needs to win first, st and then they will be happy because they’re winning.
244 00:22:11.600 ⇒ 00:22:14.669 Amber Lin: If you buy a source, just them being happy.
245 00:22:14.830 ⇒ 00:22:19.650 Uttam Kumaran: Then we will just stock up or like hide things
246 00:22:19.890 ⇒ 00:22:26.559 Uttam Kumaran: right? And then you become. Then you’re a bad employee because we sort of push, push. We’re we’re we’re back in square one, where, like
247 00:22:27.050 ⇒ 00:22:31.260 Uttam Kumaran: someone at some point is, gonna be like, what do they do again? Right.
248 00:22:31.260 ⇒ 00:22:31.720 Amber Lin: Oh!
249 00:22:31.720 ⇒ 00:22:39.830 Uttam Kumaran: And we’re gonna 1st on the chopping block. This is why, you know. And one thing, it’s we we could talk to Alex about. This is like, yeah, I want, I want us to show
250 00:22:40.050 ⇒ 00:22:45.370 Uttam Kumaran: very succinctly every week that what we’re doing is tremendously valuable.
251 00:22:46.128 ⇒ 00:22:50.589 Uttam Kumaran: Right? Like we show the outcomes, because I want it to be no doubt that we’re
252 00:22:50.980 ⇒ 00:22:55.089 Uttam Kumaran: we’re driving stuff for them, or they should fire us. Why not like, you know.
253 00:22:55.090 ⇒ 00:22:57.749 Amber Lin: I see. So when I think when I
254 00:22:57.910 ⇒ 00:23:11.199 Amber Lin: didn’t present the adoption problem, it was a fear of okay. I. For some reason, my frame of thinking was that adoption is our value, and if we don’t have adoption, I didn’t want to show that we’re not achieving.
255 00:23:11.200 ⇒ 00:23:11.650 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
256 00:23:11.650 ⇒ 00:23:32.820 Amber Lin: Value that we wanted. But to think about it. And okay, we gave you a whole system that we did all the technical work, and you need to update the documents to make it accurate and make the your people use it. So in that case is pointing out that they have a problem, so that eventually, if it blew up we’ll know that, hey, this is not our responsibility.
257 00:23:33.010 ⇒ 00:23:34.519 Uttam Kumaran: And no, it’s a mutual problem.
258 00:23:35.080 ⇒ 00:23:38.049 Uttam Kumaran: Right. And this is where, like, we don’t want to take.
259 00:23:38.430 ⇒ 00:23:40.240 Uttam Kumaran: I don’t want to take a
260 00:23:40.540 ⇒ 00:23:51.189 Uttam Kumaran: responsibly off of them right, because we can only do our job, but this is where it’s like. If we were truly partners in the business, then we would deliver the news accurately.
261 00:23:52.020 ⇒ 00:24:00.460 Uttam Kumaran: If we’re just act as consultants. Then their ship burns, and then we’re like, Oh, we’re don’t care like we’re not in there. This is what consultants
262 00:24:00.740 ⇒ 00:24:17.130 Uttam Kumaran: like. I feel like this, you know. And again, this is just my inkling is like when you’re an employee, when you’re a true partner. You don’t mind a tough conversation. I don’t mind telling them. Look, this is we’re trying. Here’s a here’s a 1015 things we did. We even flew someone out to come meet
263 00:24:17.980 ⇒ 00:24:22.340 Uttam Kumaran: with people, you know, and we and we still are not able track of this code.
264 00:24:22.660 ⇒ 00:24:24.340 Uttam Kumaran: We have everything built.
265 00:24:24.480 ⇒ 00:24:26.899 Uttam Kumaran: Let’s discuss what is possible.
266 00:24:27.070 ⇒ 00:24:40.429 Uttam Kumaran: Right? And that’s the conversation. That’s gonna be really healthy. I don’t. We’re we’re. And then that is what’s gonna actually move the needle I’m telling you like. And then I don’t think you should feel fear because you would feel fear if we’re we have something to hide
267 00:24:40.800 ⇒ 00:24:47.400 Uttam Kumaran: right? But we built everything works. It’s there. It’s great. So in that situation
268 00:24:48.140 ⇒ 00:24:52.889 Uttam Kumaran: that we only have 2 routes. We either don’t do anything, and at some point
269 00:24:53.080 ⇒ 00:24:56.875 Uttam Kumaran: your your guilt is gonna go higher or gonna get fired.
270 00:24:57.780 ⇒ 00:25:03.529 Uttam Kumaran: We bring it up. Something happens and we keep iterating right? And then we we solve the problem.
271 00:25:04.080 ⇒ 00:25:06.459 Amber Lin: Great this is. This is really helpful.
272 00:25:06.460 ⇒ 00:25:09.490 Uttam Kumaran: I’m telling you your gill is gonna be higher in the in plan. A.
273 00:25:09.990 ⇒ 00:25:11.820 Amber Lin: Like I can. I’m telling you
274 00:25:11.820 ⇒ 00:25:15.529 Amber Lin: it’s not gonna stop. If I if I keep hiding, it’s never gonna stop, because it.
275 00:25:15.530 ⇒ 00:25:18.100 Uttam Kumaran: No, yeah, we yeah, we yeah, yeah.
276 00:25:20.960 ⇒ 00:25:26.610 Amber Lin: Okay, great. I have 4 more minutes. I’ll see you at the call with Alex. I need to ask Chat to be to come up with some questions.
277 00:25:26.982 ⇒ 00:25:28.099 Uttam Kumaran: Okay. Okay. Okay.
278 00:25:28.100 ⇒ 00:25:29.300 Amber Lin: Hey? Talk to you later.
279 00:25:29.300 ⇒ 00:25:29.960 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, bye.
280 00:25:30.200 ⇒ 00:25:30.920 Amber Lin: Bye.