Meeting Title: Uttam <> Demilade <> Robert Date: 2025-05-05 Meeting participants: Demilade Agboola, Robert Tseng, Uttam Kumaran
WEBVTT
1 00:00:07.220 ⇒ 00:00:10.290 Uttam Kumaran: Dude. I hate this Bro.
2 00:00:12.490 ⇒ 00:00:16.660 Uttam Kumaran: I hate this. I hate urban stems, this stupid shit.
3 00:00:17.670 ⇒ 00:00:18.700 Robert Tseng: Oh! What!
4 00:00:19.520 ⇒ 00:00:23.650 Uttam Kumaran: No, it’s just like dude their models suck and like.
5 00:00:26.480 ⇒ 00:00:32.290 Demilade Agboola: So it’s it’s 1 of those projects where, like, it’s supposed to be 15, like 15 h per week. But like.
6 00:00:32.619 ⇒ 00:00:40.280 Demilade Agboola: because it’s so badly done. It’s hard to stay within that like, literally, I have been looking at it for like the past, like what 2 h now.
7 00:00:40.830 ⇒ 00:01:04.340 Demilade Agboola: because their revenue is not tracking, and like, right before mother’s day, that’s really scary for them. So I have to get to the bottom of it and effectively, what’s going on is, they tagged every model as a core model, which is terribly done like, how do you tag every like 300 plus models are call model. So the only way you can get like specific jobs to like specific flows to work is by excluding like unnecessary flows.
8 00:01:04.500 ⇒ 00:01:07.600 Demilade Agboola: and Emily had expedited flow, added something, and that
9 00:01:07.970 ⇒ 00:01:26.742 Demilade Agboola: impacted an upstream model that therefore, didn’t allow that to run, and everything downstream just kind of didn’t run. And so now, for for like the past 4 h they weren’t able to see anything on like revenue. And so everyone was like running around just scared. So now we like that. That’s what I’m trying to write a message to
10 00:01:27.150 ⇒ 00:01:28.739 Demilade Agboola: Can’t pronounce her name.
11 00:01:28.740 ⇒ 00:01:29.390 Uttam Kumaran: Actually.
12 00:01:29.390 ⇒ 00:01:31.649 Demilade Agboola: Menashe. Yeah, basically.
13 00:01:31.810 ⇒ 00:01:40.679 Demilade Agboola: we’re going to have to create like a special like Mother’s Day flow. So specifically like these are the models that critical to mother’s day. Either we create a tag for them or.
14 00:01:40.680 ⇒ 00:01:44.190 Uttam Kumaran: That’s what I did dude cause like what the heck like. Why.
15 00:01:44.320 ⇒ 00:01:57.290 Demilade Agboola: So because it’s because the current job is running core models excluding blah, blah, blah blah! But like, if you go to the Dbt project or yamu file. Everything is a core model, which is what I put in there.
16 00:01:57.670 ⇒ 00:02:02.890 Demilade Agboola: So it’s really dependent on the exclusion rather than the
17 00:02:03.410 ⇒ 00:02:09.310 Demilade Agboola: tagging. So we either need to like tag the models that are core, which is kind of strange.
18 00:02:09.310 ⇒ 00:02:12.270 Uttam Kumaran: Why don’t I just remove the the inclusion.
19 00:02:12.860 ⇒ 00:02:26.559 Demilade Agboola: What I’m what I’m even just thinking is, let’s just take create jobs where we get all the models that we need that power. The dashboards, all 3, 4, 5. They’re not too many models. They’ll end layer and then do jobs that run everything upstream to that model
20 00:02:27.220 ⇒ 00:02:35.520 Demilade Agboola: that we were only running critical models that matter to the end users, because right now, like that, that jobs an entire mess.
21 00:02:36.564 ⇒ 00:02:42.390 Demilade Agboola: It’s horrible. I I don’t know who did that like? That’s that’s the horrible, horrible infrastructure.
22 00:02:42.390 ⇒ 00:02:46.940 Uttam Kumaran: Okay, just rip. Just rip it then on the side, or or just rip it like, yeah.
23 00:02:48.510 ⇒ 00:02:49.730 Uttam Kumaran: it’s just like
24 00:02:51.100 ⇒ 00:02:56.700 Uttam Kumaran: the CEO is nice, although I just like get like a lot of Ptsd, if I get DM. By like
25 00:02:57.190 ⇒ 00:03:01.979 Uttam Kumaran: Ceos during these types of things, and it’s sad because
26 00:03:02.840 ⇒ 00:03:05.309 Uttam Kumaran: nobody on their team can do this. So like
27 00:03:05.750 ⇒ 00:03:12.210 Uttam Kumaran: on one hand, I’m like nervous because I’m like yo. We’ve done great work for like 3 months here, and like
28 00:03:12.840 ⇒ 00:03:19.370 Uttam Kumaran: we’re like, no one helped us figure this out until finally 2 people like people are interested in the data today.
29 00:03:19.650 ⇒ 00:03:24.314 Uttam Kumaran: At the same time, I’m like, Okay, well, we’re fixing it so what what can we do? You know?
30 00:03:25.450 ⇒ 00:03:27.130 Robert Tseng: Told us not to touch anything.
31 00:03:27.130 ⇒ 00:03:32.289 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah. And they also told us not to make any of these changes we’re making today, they said not to make these changes.
32 00:03:32.570 ⇒ 00:03:37.220 Uttam Kumaran: And I asked. I’ve asked multiple times and.
33 00:03:39.111 ⇒ 00:03:45.939 Robert Tseng: We’re billing it. They they have. They have no choice. We have all the leverage I’d be like, we’re billing.
34 00:03:45.940 ⇒ 00:03:47.930 Robert Tseng: I’ll be the guy who just said billing for this.
35 00:03:47.930 ⇒ 00:03:53.780 Uttam Kumaran: We will. It’s fine. I it’s okay. It’s just I just.
36 00:03:55.480 ⇒ 00:04:02.910 Uttam Kumaran: I’m just glad both of us are here, and it’s getting done, and it’s looking better. So, but
37 00:04:03.400 ⇒ 00:04:05.425 Uttam Kumaran: yeah, I guess we can.
38 00:04:07.000 ⇒ 00:04:09.649 Uttam Kumaran: I mean, we can. Let’s just continue about our meeting.
39 00:04:09.840 ⇒ 00:04:15.150 Uttam Kumaran: But overall, I feel like this is back updating right escalating.
40 00:04:15.150 ⇒ 00:04:16.320 Robert Tseng: Look like Jesse.
41 00:04:17.100 ⇒ 00:04:17.765 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
42 00:04:18.430 ⇒ 00:04:20.110 Robert Tseng: The A/C guy.
43 00:04:20.110 ⇒ 00:04:20.760 Robert Tseng: Oh, okay.
44 00:04:22.910 ⇒ 00:04:32.689 Demilade Agboola: Yeah, I know. I mean that people are beginning to get some revenue like insight into revenue. It’s not fully done. And we did run into an error where?
45 00:04:34.310 ⇒ 00:04:41.999 Demilade Agboola: So by so orders, id had duplicates, which is another issue entirely. But we’ll like
46 00:04:42.100 ⇒ 00:04:49.820 Demilade Agboola: at least it’s progress. We know that that’s a different issue entirely. But we will push that. I’m just going to do. Dbt, run without the tests.
47 00:04:51.260 ⇒ 00:04:56.149 Demilade Agboola: We can then troubleshoot and then get to the root of what the issue is with the duplicate.
48 00:04:58.860 ⇒ 00:04:59.510 Uttam Kumaran: Okay.
49 00:05:00.570 ⇒ 00:05:02.640 Demilade Agboola: Fun! Stuff! A very fun day.
50 00:05:04.190 ⇒ 00:05:08.139 Uttam Kumaran: Okay, cool. Well, I wanted to take this time. I think.
51 00:05:08.340 ⇒ 00:05:10.470 Uttam Kumaran: Damala, we talked a little bit
52 00:05:10.610 ⇒ 00:05:14.130 Uttam Kumaran: together. But basically what’s top of mind for us.
53 00:05:14.290 ⇒ 00:05:21.939 Uttam Kumaran: It’s sort of starting to carve out like, basically like our middle management.
54 00:05:22.250 ⇒ 00:05:26.837 Uttam Kumaran: But more of like, how do we find the people that are
55 00:05:27.550 ⇒ 00:05:37.020 Uttam Kumaran: clearly are showing a propensity to grow in one way or another, and sort of like establishing that right? Like I think we’ve. I’ve sort of talked to everybody.
56 00:05:39.210 ⇒ 00:05:59.918 Uttam Kumaran: like one on one for for weeks now, just sort of understanding where everyone fits. And I think, in particular, on the data side, I think you and a wish are really, really like both fairly senior and I think have the ability to take on more things than just, you know, taking on tickets. So we want to sort of enable that couple of ways that we’re seeing this
57 00:06:00.670 ⇒ 00:06:03.490 Uttam Kumaran: And I think one thing today, I hopefully wanna
58 00:06:03.700 ⇒ 00:06:10.560 Uttam Kumaran: stop talking soon and more. Hear your feedback. But you know, in an engineering organization you have a couple of
59 00:06:10.740 ⇒ 00:06:40.570 Uttam Kumaran: of roles that matter like in the middle layer. Right? You have like engineering managers. Who are more partners with project managers making sure that people are achieving their goals. Basically, the growth of people, and like your leverage is through other folks succeeding. The second piece is also on like, we also have people that are like more tech leads. So this is on choosing the right vendors, engineering patterns, heavily focused on just like
60 00:06:40.790 ⇒ 00:06:45.542 Uttam Kumaran: scaling. You’re like basically taking like the toughest problems.
61 00:06:46.250 ⇒ 00:06:54.949 Uttam Kumaran: things like that. The other area we’re also seeing opportunity is on the sales side. So assisting on like scoping projects.
62 00:06:56.290 ⇒ 00:07:13.370 Uttam Kumaran: scoping projects and basically being the partner for the project manager. So that when a deal comes down the pipeline and it’s about to, basically, we get a verbal yes, or like, we’re we’re putting together the scope like similar to this urban stems. You’re working directly with the project manager. Say, cool
63 00:07:13.760 ⇒ 00:07:31.290 Uttam Kumaran: in order to achieve the goals. Here’s the basically the breakdown. And then that helps sales like scope that and then and sell that so those are like the key areas. We’re seeing opportunities. One of the things, although that, I think, is unique. For us is that we’re trying to see people stretch
64 00:07:31.440 ⇒ 00:07:39.480 Uttam Kumaran: so not only doing just like engineering manager, or just technically, but actually being able to do more than one of those.
65 00:07:40.007 ⇒ 00:07:55.060 Uttam Kumaran: Not only just because I think there’s a lot of opportunity to do that here, but also. Basically. So you can gain incentive like, there’s actually like cash incentive related to taking on both of those scopes of work.
66 00:07:55.240 ⇒ 00:08:02.060 Uttam Kumaran: So I don’t know. I know we talked in the past about your interest in sort of like getting involved in like scoping projects.
67 00:08:02.475 ⇒ 00:08:20.080 Uttam Kumaran: But also I never asked like where you, if you’re involved in, you’re interested in getting involved in like managing people, or I know you. You also express some interest in the sales side. So just like I kind of wanted to hear while the 3 of us are on the call like, where do you kind of see yourself wanting to stretch more and like how we can.
68 00:08:20.760 ⇒ 00:08:22.120 Uttam Kumaran: you know, enable that.
69 00:08:23.411 ⇒ 00:08:34.320 Demilade Agboola: I mean, we kind of talked about it. I’ll just kind of rehash sort of what I mentioned on the risk call so one of the things I did mention was sales. I
70 00:08:34.440 ⇒ 00:08:38.830 Demilade Agboola: being able to be on the call help with scoping, help it like leveraging
71 00:08:39.340 ⇒ 00:08:44.490 Demilade Agboola: experience, and say, Hey, you probably need this. This is how you probably should look at this problem.
72 00:08:45.133 ⇒ 00:08:49.139 Demilade Agboola: And help see? Push the boundaries of what they are willing to
73 00:08:50.870 ⇒ 00:08:54.969 Demilade Agboola: commits to and let them understand the importance of what they’re working with.
74 00:08:55.190 ⇒ 00:09:03.440 Demilade Agboola: So that’s 1 and that also like, well, basically scope in 2 is also in terms of
75 00:09:04.470 ⇒ 00:09:08.220 Demilade Agboola: not just tickets. And I think I mentioned it’s not just tickets, but being able to like
76 00:09:09.098 ⇒ 00:09:13.410 Demilade Agboola: quantify and push the things that we’re doing.
77 00:09:14.533 ⇒ 00:09:16.240 Demilade Agboola: Any projects
78 00:09:16.520 ⇒ 00:09:38.119 Demilade Agboola: in the sense of like being able to help with the direction with the products is going and what will be useful to the client. So an example which I mentioned Tom last week, I believe, was a lot of our interactions that I see with clients tend to be, stand ups, and in stand ups that puts you on the back foot. It’s constantly. Have you done this? Have you done that? Have you done that which
79 00:09:38.350 ⇒ 00:10:02.810 Demilade Agboola: comes across as very like your question of tickets list being able to send up like once in 2 weeks, or once in a month. Hey, this is what we’ve done. This is the business impact of what we’ve done, and a simple example will be like Eden and the rejects the function that we’ve created being able to quantify that impact versus what was there before is very useful. And I did something like that for urban stems. That’s the document I shared with Tom today.
80 00:10:03.070 ⇒ 00:10:21.027 Demilade Agboola: So basically being able to quantify the impact that we’re creating from either a business perspective or technical perspective, and how much and how that technical perspective quantifies in a business sense, either in terms of man hours or actual dollar values is something we need to
81 00:10:21.810 ⇒ 00:10:30.820 Demilade Agboola: like, just quantify and put out to the customer so that they understand what we’re doing. And it’s not just, oh, you’ve crossed off this ticket. You crossed off that ticket. But they can actually see that.
82 00:10:31.445 ⇒ 00:10:35.009 Demilade Agboola: So that’s another thing. Also, yeah, like.
83 00:10:38.280 ⇒ 00:10:42.090 Demilade Agboola: I would say, yeah, also, the technically part of like being able to come in on like
84 00:10:42.530 ⇒ 00:10:48.350 Demilade Agboola: heart problems and like help. People figure out like what these heart problems are. I truly do like
85 00:10:48.830 ⇒ 00:10:50.750 Demilade Agboola: this. This sounds
86 00:10:51.370 ⇒ 00:11:16.959 Demilade Agboola: I get. I get thrilled by having to solve problems I don’t know to explain. But like when everyone’s like, Oh, the revenue is down, I’m like, yes, this is good time, like, it’s, it’s something that actually does excite me. And so yeah, being able to be like flexible for that, and just be open to that I mean, obviously, sometimes, if you’re not on the project, it takes you time to scale to understand what what’s going on before you can jump in. But yeah, just the general process of being able to figure out
87 00:11:17.550 ⇒ 00:11:25.489 Demilade Agboola: what exactly just happened and what the problem is. And like debugging, I really do enjoy that so that’s something I I’m also open to.
88 00:11:26.010 ⇒ 00:11:41.550 Demilade Agboola: And then, in terms of like people management here. That’s it’s not something I’ve necessarily done in like sense of actually managing. I’ve been supporting people like I’ve had. I’ve worked as a senior and had, like juniors where I would support them. But I also see that something that I am open to like growing and figuring that out.
89 00:11:42.020 ⇒ 00:11:45.420 Demilade Agboola: And like, just what that entails and what that like.
90 00:11:47.320 ⇒ 00:12:03.221 Demilade Agboola: yeah, just start building. That skill set up, I guess, is probably the the better way to put it. Cause I understand that, like, you know, in terms of like supporting. It’s more of a thing of if they have any issues they reach out to you. But I think management is a bit more consistent
91 00:12:03.600 ⇒ 00:12:08.429 Demilade Agboola: And so that’s definitely a skill set that I you know I’m open to like building as well.
92 00:12:10.360 ⇒ 00:12:11.800 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I I think,
93 00:12:14.370 ⇒ 00:12:35.430 Uttam Kumaran: yeah, I I think, certainly. I think we’re. We’re we need some more help. And what you described on the sales process is really around like retention expansion. And like, just like just delivery success. Where you’re right, like, typically our touch points are just daily stand ups. And so thinking through, like, Okay, how do we have higher level conversations?
94 00:12:36.700 ⇒ 00:12:41.889 Uttam Kumaran: I think the engineering management piece, you know, is is not only just on.
95 00:12:42.910 ⇒ 00:12:48.720 Uttam Kumaran: It’s it’s it’s part of it is like, basically you going through understanding what everyone’s goals are
96 00:12:48.820 ⇒ 00:12:59.180 Uttam Kumaran: figuring out. Hey? What do they want to do? Do they want to go to sort of be tech lead like, how could they? How could every single person grow and sort of setting the intensive there? That’s where it’s like.
97 00:12:59.590 ⇒ 00:13:00.979 Uttam Kumaran: I think it really.
98 00:13:01.550 ⇒ 00:13:08.809 Uttam Kumaran: it takes a lot of energy, and your success comes from ultimately, like those team members winning.
99 00:13:09.460 ⇒ 00:13:13.260 Uttam Kumaran: I think there is a difference in what you’re describing, which is more about like
100 00:13:13.410 ⇒ 00:13:18.169 Uttam Kumaran: the delivery being successful, regardless of
101 00:13:18.850 ⇒ 00:13:23.720 Uttam Kumaran: like who’s on it or what we’re doing and seeing patterns across delivery.
102 00:13:24.610 ⇒ 00:13:29.650 Uttam Kumaran: And that’s fine, like, I think that that’s that is a huge bottleneck for us.
103 00:13:33.620 ⇒ 00:13:40.830 Uttam Kumaran: yeah, I I think I’m just trying to think. And then I mean on the broader sales side, I think where we could get your help is
104 00:13:41.200 ⇒ 00:13:45.909 Uttam Kumaran: when projects come down the pipe, or when we’re producing scopes of work for folks.
105 00:13:46.140 ⇒ 00:14:04.641 Uttam Kumaran: your ability to actually help say, cool. This is the problem that this client have. This is something we can solve. Here’s the steps to solve it. Here’s like the expected timeline and providing sales with like, okay, this is roughly like what it would take to to do this, and then working with the project managers to execute that.
106 00:14:05.500 ⇒ 00:14:12.130 Uttam Kumaran: I don’t know, Robert, like I feel like it’s still kind of like a little bit murky in my head about the delivery aspect
107 00:14:12.490 ⇒ 00:14:18.379 Uttam Kumaran: versus like the people management, you know. Sort of stuff.
108 00:14:21.520 ⇒ 00:14:31.040 Robert Tseng: Yeah, I I mean, I think dam lot of. I mean, I’m just contrasting kind of what we heard from wishes side wish cares a lot. I mean, he’s more interested in wanting to be. If we could kind of
109 00:14:31.260 ⇒ 00:14:32.990 Robert Tseng: think about it from like.
110 00:14:33.090 ⇒ 00:14:59.127 Robert Tseng: okay, there’s like the, you know, like the solutions engineer sales engineer, I guess. Who’s who’s there? Kind of defining like what that initial scope of work is? And helping us to close the deal and like, figure out what that 1st win looks like. I feel like a wish is more interested in that. Then a lot of it seems like, you know, at the airport, like he wants to. Just he wants to solve our problems. He wants to. He wants our team to get credit for it as well. So I see that more is like kind of like,
111 00:14:59.460 ⇒ 00:15:04.500 Robert Tseng: you know, more helpful on the account management side, making sure that we have, like a regular cadence of.
112 00:15:04.780 ⇒ 00:15:31.140 Robert Tseng: you know, documenting and and publicly sharing like our wins, and and making sure that the things that we’re putting out are are being adopted. And I’ve I’ve seen that obviously on the Eden client, where, you know, is clearly the go to person on a lot of things now like he’s got handled. The tableau reports like any question that that clients have. He’s able to go and be be that 1st person to answer it. At this point.
113 00:15:32.750 ⇒ 00:15:38.669 Robert Tseng: you know. So I I think that’s that’s definitely something I I’ve observed as like a strength of his.
114 00:15:39.174 ⇒ 00:15:42.720 Robert Tseng: But then, yeah, I can hear the point where he
115 00:15:42.920 ⇒ 00:15:54.159 Robert Tseng: he wants to be kind of tapped in as like the the spec. Ops guy as well. It’s like something’s going wrong, and no one knows what to do. He he likes kind of being being the 1st one to jump.
116 00:15:54.160 ⇒ 00:16:01.430 Uttam Kumaran: No, and it’s great cause. That’s that’s that’s me a lot of the time, and I want to hand that off. And I want to have a partner in that work.
117 00:16:01.650 ⇒ 00:16:12.610 Uttam Kumaran: And so like, I totally agree is that like basically taking 1st dibs at like the hardest problems, or even like goping new technologies on, like what a roadmap would look like towards it.
118 00:16:14.030 ⇒ 00:16:14.620 Robert Tseng: Yeah.
119 00:16:14.620 ⇒ 00:16:26.250 Robert Tseng: So I mean, I I told him this morning that like, especially as we’re making more tech decisions on Eden, like, I want him to be part of those conversations. More so. Yeah, if he likes architecture and being able to.
120 00:16:26.997 ⇒ 00:16:33.020 Robert Tseng: like, you know, go through this whole like tooling evaluation process that we do, you and I do, Tom.
121 00:16:34.090 ⇒ 00:16:38.159 Robert Tseng: Yeah, I mean, I think this is all about like long term client success. You know.
122 00:16:38.694 ⇒ 00:16:43.149 Robert Tseng: It’s like the decisions that we’re preparing for knowing what’s coming.
123 00:16:43.430 ⇒ 00:17:09.099 Robert Tseng: Like with Eden. We know that systems are changing. We know that certain tools are gonna not continue a few few months from now, like we’re trying to get ahead of that and and do some more planning on that front, making sure that they’re able to scale scale better with the decisions that we’re influencing, you know. So I think that’s that’s all. Part of like the client kind of client, success or account, management.
124 00:17:11.170 ⇒ 00:17:12.440 Demilade Agboola: Yeah, I think.
125 00:17:12.900 ⇒ 00:17:21.829 Demilade Agboola: yeah, on the high level. Yeah, I think that’s basically that’s a lot of what I do enjoy. The hard problems and being able to solve them, and just being able to
126 00:17:25.500 ⇒ 00:17:29.660 Demilade Agboola: figure out like roadmaps on what’s useful and what’s not useful, and also ensure that
127 00:17:29.810 ⇒ 00:17:34.070 Demilade Agboola: what we do clearly stands out and allows us to be seen. And you know
128 00:17:34.550 ⇒ 00:17:50.570 Demilade Agboola: we can get whatever like credit we we get for doing what we’ve done. So that’s 1 but 2 like I said with the personnel theme, and just being able to be there for people in terms of like what their goals are and what they
129 00:17:51.070 ⇒ 00:17:57.540 Demilade Agboola: what they want to do again. That’s it. That’s not necessarily something. I’ve always done our work like even out work I have
130 00:17:58.195 ⇒ 00:18:08.469 Demilade Agboola: on Sundays. I have like this mentorship program that I’m a part of, and like every like every Sunday, I have 2 mentees that come up and tell me what they’ve done, what their goals are.
131 00:18:08.900 ⇒ 00:18:22.940 Demilade Agboola: what they need to do to get, and then give them like a guide on what they need to do to get to those goals and figure out like, Oh, you need these certification. I need to learn more about this. This is probably this course you should take. So like I I do. I’m tapped into that like outside work work. That’s not necessarily something I
132 00:18:23.110 ⇒ 00:18:26.560 Demilade Agboola: have always done, because in some cases
133 00:18:26.710 ⇒ 00:18:29.599 Demilade Agboola: my work is literally just like.
134 00:18:29.770 ⇒ 00:18:33.140 Demilade Agboola: get this done. And like, that’s a huge focus on what I need to do.
135 00:18:33.140 ⇒ 00:18:33.530 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
136 00:18:33.915 ⇒ 00:18:35.455 Demilade Agboola: In some other cases.
137 00:18:36.050 ⇒ 00:18:36.810 Demilade Agboola: The
138 00:18:36.920 ⇒ 00:18:43.549 Demilade Agboola: the juniors at work aren’t necessarily like that’s not their highest priority, especially when I was in like consulting before in digital culture.
139 00:18:44.020 ⇒ 00:18:53.390 Demilade Agboola: Everyone’s like, we’re moving real quick. So like a lot of the issues that the juniors are having as just largely, I’m stuck on this project, my deadlines coming up. I have no idea.
140 00:18:53.390 ⇒ 00:18:54.899 Uttam Kumaran: Going to take it. Yeah.
141 00:18:54.900 ⇒ 00:19:01.679 Demilade Agboola: So that’s kind of like the scope. But if we’re trying to create like spaces or like avenues where people can be like, hey?
142 00:19:03.560 ⇒ 00:19:12.510 Demilade Agboola: For the next 30 min I’m not talking about work per se. I’m just talking more career and like how and how I can figure that out. Yeah, and there’s always capacity for that.
143 00:19:13.272 ⇒ 00:19:16.330 Demilade Agboola: And I also kind of like that, because
144 00:19:16.790 ⇒ 00:19:18.569 Demilade Agboola: it allows me to also see
145 00:19:18.850 ⇒ 00:19:39.680 Demilade Agboola: sometimes I don’t always have the answers, and that’s great, because that allows me to also push myself and figure stuff out. I’m like, Oh, actually, given the context of this, this tool is probably a fad. You don’t like me to learn it, but learn the foundations of the tool, then the concepts behind it, and like, if that fad goes out of style like you still understand the basic concepts of how to do these things right like
146 00:19:40.113 ⇒ 00:20:04.139 Demilade Agboola: so things like that, you know, I I do enjoy that process. And it’s always something I’m open to. To be honest, I think, at the end day whatever can just make us like. I consider myself a Swiss army knife. To be honest, like whatever can make us better as a team. I’m I’m generally open to it now. There’s certain things I don’t really like per se, but like to be fair. Most things I’m I’m very open. I’m very open to it.
147 00:20:04.140 ⇒ 00:20:07.560 Uttam Kumaran: Okay. But then tell me that like, what? What are the stuff that
148 00:20:07.910 ⇒ 00:20:20.700 Uttam Kumaran: I mean for me? A lot like it’s these days. It’s like. I don’t know. I wish there’s some things I don’t like doing, but I describe it as it doesn’t give me energy, you know. So like, if you if you think about it that way, like, what are certain things that you’re like?
149 00:20:21.190 ⇒ 00:20:26.530 Uttam Kumaran: It’s like pulling teeth. If you were to take it on yeah.
150 00:20:27.080 ⇒ 00:20:27.909 Demilade Agboola: I mean
151 00:20:28.850 ⇒ 00:20:34.410 Demilade Agboola: pulling teeth is a bit extreme cause. I didn’t do that like what has to be done has to be done.
152 00:20:35.980 ⇒ 00:20:52.269 Demilade Agboola: I think the only things I might a bit like. I have. I have to do it. And I need sometimes literally just need to go to my to do list and put it there. So I I know that this has to be done before days over. It’s probably stuff around like writing lot of.
153 00:20:52.270 ⇒ 00:20:52.650 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
154 00:20:53.155 ⇒ 00:21:00.730 Demilade Agboola: And I’m not saying like a quick like thing I’m saying like pro- providing like.
155 00:21:01.186 ⇒ 00:21:02.100 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah. Yeah.
156 00:21:02.100 ⇒ 00:21:02.799 Demilade Agboola: That sort of stuff.
157 00:21:02.800 ⇒ 00:21:10.210 Uttam Kumaran: Is that something that you don’t like to do or you’re like? I just haven’t had a space to. I haven’t had the space to do it right.
158 00:21:10.440 ⇒ 00:21:13.250 Uttam Kumaran: and like your expectations are high. So you’re like.
159 00:21:13.860 ⇒ 00:21:19.119 Demilade Agboola: I think, for the most part, it’s like it’s not problem solving. I think that’s kind of part of why.
160 00:21:19.120 ⇒ 00:21:19.960 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, yeah.
161 00:21:19.960 ⇒ 00:21:21.099 Demilade Agboola: It’s kind of like.
162 00:21:22.710 ⇒ 00:21:24.509 Uttam Kumaran: It’s almost like thought, it’s like.
163 00:21:24.720 ⇒ 00:21:26.579 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, yeah, I know what you mean.
164 00:21:26.580 ⇒ 00:21:38.039 Demilade Agboola: It’s not like problem solving. It’s like, I’m trying to pour out my thoughts as to how this problem would be solved and try to make it so clear that any other person who reads it can read it
165 00:21:38.350 ⇒ 00:21:45.299 Demilade Agboola: and understand it. And so you end up having to like. I mean, tragedy makes a lot of things easier nowadays to be fair. So like I’m not, it’s not the worst thing in the world anymore.
166 00:21:45.300 ⇒ 00:21:46.050 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, yeah.
167 00:21:46.720 ⇒ 00:21:49.430 Demilade Agboola: But, like you still have to put out the draft, put in chat Gpt.
168 00:21:49.430 ⇒ 00:21:57.980 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, yeah. But I you know, I I actually think that what you’ll find. And I I had to learn how to do this a lot in my career is for you. You know you’re
169 00:21:58.360 ⇒ 00:22:12.380 Uttam Kumaran: it’s it’s ultimately understanding, like where your leverage comes from. And also like, if you’re just a problem solver. Then you only have 8 h of leverage, or 6 h, or whatever. Right? So if you’re like cool, my leverage is either better process.
170 00:22:12.630 ⇒ 00:22:39.559 Uttam Kumaran: which can be. There’s documentation or process for which we do things that everybody adopts your mindset on it, and then you gain leverage toward from that, or you sort of manage people. And you’re like, cool. I’m gonna build this person out. Build this next person up, and you gain leverage towards that right. But Leverage has to come from something apart from like linearly scaling your time meaning you’re only gonna be able to solve 3 problems, 3 to 4 problems a day.
171 00:22:39.750 ⇒ 00:22:50.630 Uttam Kumaran: no matter what like we you wake up, you go to bed right? So Leverage has to come from somewhere, and so I think it’s up to you to know for that for that sort of piece in particular.
172 00:22:51.230 ⇒ 00:23:11.419 Uttam Kumaran: there’s a there’s a lot I mean one I love to like. I actually like to write a lot. I just don’t get a chance to, and I feel like you may find it similarly freeing, because you can get all your thoughts down on a subject matter, and it gets codified as the way the business looks at that problem. No matter when the problem comes up.
173 00:23:11.690 ⇒ 00:23:16.509 Uttam Kumaran: Right. For example, if you’re like, Hey, we have a problem in the company where we don’t show our work.
174 00:23:16.620 ⇒ 00:23:19.180 Uttam Kumaran: and we need a process by which we do that
175 00:23:19.410 ⇒ 00:23:47.379 Uttam Kumaran: you can go quickly be like, I’m gonna book the meeting for Eden. We’re gonna have a monthly meeting, but none of that scales beyond that client, and none of that is reproducible by anyone but you. So your leverage is limited by that hour block of your preparation. So that’s when you’re like, well, I’m gonna write something about how, for every client we need to be doing this process. And then I’m gonna go work with someone on engineering to assign people. Then you’ve gotten another 5 or 6 h of leverage just on like one document.
176 00:23:47.630 ⇒ 00:23:54.310 Uttam Kumaran: That’s like real real leverage on your technical talent. But it does take
177 00:23:54.840 ⇒ 00:24:00.450 Uttam Kumaran: what’s what you would think is like non scalable, which is like writing, like writing, presenting
178 00:24:00.620 ⇒ 00:24:05.169 Uttam Kumaran: like almost like gaining the adoption and the buy in, you know, from the business.
179 00:24:05.660 ⇒ 00:24:07.290 Uttam Kumaran: But I yeah.
180 00:24:07.510 ⇒ 00:24:31.600 Demilade Agboola: So no, to be fair like I get what you mean, and that’s a that’s a great perspective for it. I you know, I think sometimes, like my previous manager, my my last job she used to always like, say, Oh, it’s time for your favorite thing documentation, and then she’ll laugh, and I’ll laugh, and then she’ll assign tickets to me, and I’ll get done. It’s sort of that thing it’s like I will get it done right, but it’s not necessarily a thing where.
181 00:24:32.270 ⇒ 00:24:34.789 Demilade Agboola: And I also kind of realized that in my head
182 00:24:35.130 ⇒ 00:24:51.909 Demilade Agboola: I kind of shorten things because I kind of understand the flow and how things should work. So when I put things down, I’m just putting down like the high points of how things should be right. And then people read and be like, I’m not sure how to do this. So now I have to go further and break it down, and I think that kind of.
183 00:24:52.140 ⇒ 00:24:57.239 Demilade Agboola: I think that’s the process that like it’s not necessarily the putting of things down. It’s more of the
184 00:24:57.740 ⇒ 00:25:04.939 Demilade Agboola: dumbing it down. Quote unquote, ensure that anybody who reads it understand? That can be the the more frustrating part.
185 00:25:04.940 ⇒ 00:25:05.380 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
186 00:25:05.380 ⇒ 00:25:08.570 Demilade Agboola: Like again like I said, the beauty with Chatgpt now is that you can just kind of.
187 00:25:08.570 ⇒ 00:25:09.310 Uttam Kumaran: In the gaps.
188 00:25:09.310 ⇒ 00:25:19.660 Demilade Agboola: And it fills in the gaps, and then you can kind of take things to that. So that’s not as bad as you used to be like 4 years ago, but you know still, not necessarily like my favorite thing in the world. Doesn’t
189 00:25:20.400 ⇒ 00:25:26.890 Demilade Agboola: a lot of joy, but I like viewing it from the perspective of like trying to scale it across projects, like again.
190 00:25:27.730 ⇒ 00:25:30.609 Uttam Kumaran: Think about it, because now anytime someone runs like
191 00:25:31.384 ⇒ 00:25:37.999 Uttam Kumaran: mid month check in. They go by your process. They don’t have to reinvent it. Because this is a problem we have on every client.
192 00:25:38.520 ⇒ 00:25:42.909 Uttam Kumaran: Right? So if someone in the company is highly opinionated about the way they should go.
193 00:25:43.060 ⇒ 00:26:00.600 Uttam Kumaran: that person gets the 1st dibs at writing the way they should go at the moment. It’s me and Robert, and I am some of these things. I’m not highly opinionated about. Yet. I have to be in order to basically set some rule set right. But this is where, like, we’re trying to find where
194 00:26:00.930 ⇒ 00:26:10.839 Uttam Kumaran: you do have energy for that. I think the goal is mainly to find ways, and it doesn’t have to be writing. There’s a bunch of other ways to facilitate this sort of stuff. But I think
195 00:26:11.370 ⇒ 00:26:16.159 Uttam Kumaran: you know, if I was to think that like, Hey, okay, you’re want to spend more time on this tech lead side
196 00:26:16.290 ⇒ 00:26:25.110 Uttam Kumaran: technical excellence and like technical design, is very important and really will both
197 00:26:25.480 ⇒ 00:26:29.879 Uttam Kumaran: help everyone speed up, and it will save us a bunch of time and bugs.
198 00:26:30.560 ⇒ 00:26:43.830 Uttam Kumaran: That’s that’s gonna be the true like outcome of your work. That’s extremely like high leverage, you know. But that’s really the mark of like, okay, really, really, sophisticated technical leader
199 00:26:44.460 ⇒ 00:26:49.980 Uttam Kumaran: like, who is on like kind of tech tech lead. IC track is like, Okay, cool, like.
200 00:26:50.230 ⇒ 00:26:53.880 Uttam Kumaran: no matter if they do it, or they have a process to do it. It’s like
201 00:26:54.140 ⇒ 00:26:57.310 Uttam Kumaran: you can sort of trust that work, you know.
202 00:26:57.730 ⇒ 00:27:05.019 Uttam Kumaran: and I know you have a high bar for thoroughness. And so that’s something that we could, we should find a way to scale across the team.
203 00:27:06.720 ⇒ 00:27:20.989 Demilade Agboola: Yeah, sounds good. I’ll definitely look into that. I’ll definitely look at like ways to be able to not just do things. On one project in one space. But like, how can we make this like a standard across multiple spaces? And how can we ensure that like
204 00:27:21.763 ⇒ 00:27:29.089 Demilade Agboola: whether it’s tests whether it’s how models are built, whether it’s just
205 00:27:29.630 ⇒ 00:27:35.410 Demilade Agboola: how we respond to certain things or ensure that we’re on top of certain things. How can we make it scale?
206 00:27:36.010 ⇒ 00:27:41.819 Demilade Agboola: Because, like again, I’m like, my, I’m here fully here. And my focus is just how can we make brain forge
207 00:27:42.010 ⇒ 00:27:44.909 Demilade Agboola: the best possible company
208 00:27:45.440 ⇒ 00:27:52.289 Demilade Agboola: to the like. Whatever clients we have like they need, they need to be able to see like not just like the like, the
209 00:27:52.680 ⇒ 00:27:54.139 Demilade Agboola: see the impact and they feel the impact.
210 00:27:54.140 ⇒ 00:27:55.130 Uttam Kumaran: Undeniable.
211 00:27:55.130 ⇒ 00:27:57.560 Demilade Agboola: Exactly so. It’s not a thing of like oh.
212 00:27:58.160 ⇒ 00:28:00.380 Demilade Agboola: wishy, washy we’re not sure about that like.
213 00:28:00.380 ⇒ 00:28:01.030 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
214 00:28:01.450 ⇒ 00:28:13.779 Demilade Agboola: We’re 1st to the punch and everything. If the data is off for the 1st person tell you, hey, your data is off, and this is the root cause of it. Not necessarily a thing of like they’re always telling us which again, you know, things like that just being 1st got punch constantly being the ones
215 00:28:14.060 ⇒ 00:28:24.350 Demilade Agboola: showing that we are the experts in this situation where the data consultants, we’re the ones that understand this data. But the ones that understand the processes, and just being able to constantly and constantly communicate that.
216 00:28:24.780 ⇒ 00:28:25.400 Uttam Kumaran: Okay.
217 00:28:25.670 ⇒ 00:28:37.210 Uttam Kumaran: So that helps. I mean, I think, compared to what we’ve heard from a couple of people, I think hearing you definitely is like more leaning towards like tech lead, although I do think that what you mentioned about mentoring
218 00:28:37.360 ⇒ 00:28:54.770 Uttam Kumaran: helping the team that doesn’t like move off. I think it’s honestly gonna be like, sort of like 70, 31 way or another. But I see it a lot on like technical innovation like our architecture. But I think certainly on like mentoring even people internally, code reviews, but it also
219 00:28:54.960 ⇒ 00:29:00.390 Uttam Kumaran: helping prove like our our engagement. You know, with with a client so.
220 00:29:01.640 ⇒ 00:29:08.740 Demilade Agboola: I also think that, like being able to create that like part of why mentoring will be helpful is also being able to create that space where people start to see.
221 00:29:09.180 ⇒ 00:29:23.649 Demilade Agboola: because, you know, a lot of people don’t necessarily always solve problems that we all necessarily see that high like that need to do certain things a certain way. But being able to create that space where they understand that like, it’s great to be able to build a dashboard. It’s great to be able to build a pipeline. But like.
222 00:29:23.870 ⇒ 00:29:27.209 Demilade Agboola: how do you ensure that whatever you’re doing is.
223 00:29:27.210 ⇒ 00:29:27.930 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
224 00:29:28.420 ⇒ 00:29:29.080 Demilade Agboola: You do it?
225 00:29:29.080 ⇒ 00:29:29.780 Uttam Kumaran: Yes.
226 00:29:30.220 ⇒ 00:29:35.940 Demilade Agboola: How do you ensure that, like, at the end of the day you come across as the experts, you’re the one in charge of the one responsible.
227 00:29:36.760 ⇒ 00:29:41.280 Demilade Agboola: We’ll like you like in in idiom, for instance.
228 00:29:41.280 ⇒ 00:29:43.019 Uttam Kumaran: How do you, engineer? Confidence.
229 00:29:43.020 ⇒ 00:29:50.070 Demilade Agboola: Exactly. And even, for instance, there’s certain things that like Robert doesn’t even have to worry about again, like I’m just taking off his places like, don’t worry about it like.
230 00:29:50.420 ⇒ 00:29:55.909 Demilade Agboola: but I’m Robert sees this. I’m like this. This is done already. Things like that like, how do you ensure that you’re not just.
231 00:29:56.280 ⇒ 00:30:00.339 Uttam Kumaran: The engineer, you’re actually a stakeholder. Yeah.
232 00:30:00.680 ⇒ 00:30:01.410 Demilade Agboola: So.
233 00:30:01.700 ⇒ 00:30:09.800 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, dude. I mean, I wish I could clip that. I clip that I could play for the team on like a TV. That’s what I would play right. And so that’s where I can see even in
234 00:30:09.920 ⇒ 00:30:32.439 Uttam Kumaran: in speaking with you today like, that’s what gives you energy. But this is where again I think for me. When I when I meet folks like you, I’m always thinking about how do I give you more leverage over your so that your opinions cascade and like root themselves into several of other of the other people. Right. Some people are junior, and that they just wake up and they’re doing what they can do.
235 00:30:32.490 ⇒ 00:30:40.439 Uttam Kumaran: And they’re the ones that they’re next up to start to look at their work from the outside. Consider their work across multiple clients. But some of them have never worked.
236 00:30:40.620 ⇒ 00:30:48.379 Uttam Kumaran: you know, in industry for that long, or worked across with people who have shown that. So for me, I think, especially on the data side with you, and a wish
237 00:30:49.010 ⇒ 00:30:55.420 Uttam Kumaran: I want to start to map out how people can learn from y’all, and I think your overlap with him.
238 00:30:55.560 ⇒ 00:30:59.310 Uttam Kumaran: It’s actually, I’m actually happy that both of you aren’t
239 00:30:59.570 ⇒ 00:31:14.249 Uttam Kumaran: like similarly interested in people management, because, having you more focused on technical excellence, still assisting on the people, side him more heavily on the people side, and then continue to do work on the technical side, I think, is perfect.
240 00:31:14.770 ⇒ 00:31:19.629 Uttam Kumaran: And then we sort of build this like middle layer, and then to give you one other piece.
241 00:31:19.760 ⇒ 00:31:26.900 Uttam Kumaran: None of this extra work comes without like extra cash. So we’re working on basically like.
242 00:31:27.550 ⇒ 00:31:40.860 Uttam Kumaran: a milestone based like incentive system. So that, like I mentioned that we have engineering management, we have like this technical management. We have a couple of other sort of like middle management roles where
243 00:31:40.960 ⇒ 00:32:02.710 Uttam Kumaran: I I think the the luckily we are not big enough that you can actually stretch into multiple of these. And so we’re actually gonna set some like, basically some bonus milestones for that. If we’re able to achieve like certain outcomes. Then there’s ability for me to make like anywhere from like 10 to 30% more. So that’s what we’re we’re basically working on right now.
244 00:32:03.106 ⇒ 00:32:10.850 Uttam Kumaran: It’s something that I will put. I’ll put like a proposal in front of you on what the milestones are, and then we can work on it together.
245 00:32:11.574 ⇒ 00:32:13.820 Uttam Kumaran: Sort of the way I’m thinking about it is like
246 00:32:13.940 ⇒ 00:32:16.739 Uttam Kumaran: we should just try like 30 days where you’re like.
247 00:32:16.920 ⇒ 00:32:23.049 Uttam Kumaran: you assume the role you have a couple of things that you do every day. And then.
248 00:32:23.260 ⇒ 00:32:31.109 Uttam Kumaran: or you basically have a couple of things that you do. And then you basically decide, is this something that I wanna you know, continue on.
249 00:32:32.030 ⇒ 00:32:34.579 Demilade Agboola: Okay, sounds good. I’ll be looking out for that.
250 00:32:34.580 ⇒ 00:32:42.580 Uttam Kumaran: Okay, okay, cool. Alright. I’m I’ll be online for this urban stem stuff for a bit.
251 00:32:43.240 ⇒ 00:32:45.320 Uttam Kumaran: I think it’s make sure it gets.
252 00:32:45.490 ⇒ 00:33:00.149 Demilade Agboola: The worst is behind us right now, effectively. What I’m just trying to do is we’ve been able to get data out, which is cool. But the the tests that were to ensure our data quality are failing. So we need to get to the bottom of that
253 00:33:00.340 ⇒ 00:33:02.889 Demilade Agboola: wild test filling. And then
254 00:33:03.330 ⇒ 00:33:08.909 Demilade Agboola: figure that out push like the fix. And I also want to create like a special like mother’s day job.
255 00:33:09.350 ⇒ 00:33:09.980 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
256 00:33:10.210 ⇒ 00:33:13.109 Demilade Agboola: Basically like literally, only things that we need.
257 00:33:13.220 ⇒ 00:33:17.329 Demilade Agboola: And then, once we have that, we can set that to like an hourly cadence.
258 00:33:17.560 ⇒ 00:33:21.070 Demilade Agboola: And then, as we get closer to mother’s day, we can ramp that up.
259 00:33:22.140 ⇒ 00:33:23.940 Demilade Agboola: Okay, yeah.
260 00:33:25.510 ⇒ 00:33:28.380 Uttam Kumaran: Anything else.
261 00:33:30.562 ⇒ 00:33:32.367 Demilade Agboola: Not particularly.
262 00:33:34.480 ⇒ 00:33:36.230 Demilade Agboola: I.
263 00:33:36.680 ⇒ 00:33:38.419 Demilade Agboola: Yeah, not nothing particularly.
264 00:33:38.420 ⇒ 00:33:39.120 Uttam Kumaran: Okay.
265 00:33:41.524 ⇒ 00:33:43.419 Demilade Agboola: Yeah, okay, that’s good.
266 00:33:43.949 ⇒ 00:33:46.610 Demilade Agboola: Quick question, though. In terms of
267 00:33:50.410 ⇒ 00:33:51.659 Demilade Agboola: not sure I was gonna ask.
268 00:33:55.320 ⇒ 00:34:01.100 Demilade Agboola: Okay, that’s fine. I I like you just lost. I lost my train of thought. Sorry. My mind jumps around quite a bit.
269 00:34:01.100 ⇒ 00:34:08.269 Uttam Kumaran: No, no, you’re good dude. You would you would benefit from you’d benefit. You’ll like the writing piece, Dude, I’m telling you, because
270 00:34:09.260 ⇒ 00:34:13.940 Uttam Kumaran: for for you cause. Similarly for me, it allows you to go very deep on a subject
271 00:34:14.389 ⇒ 00:34:17.980 Uttam Kumaran: to like a point where you may not have like, for example, that’s why I love reading about
272 00:34:18.190 ⇒ 00:34:24.380 Uttam Kumaran: the stuff you wrote about documentation. I’m like it allows you like pinpoint be like, let me brain dump every single thing I
273 00:34:24.489 ⇒ 00:34:32.250 Uttam Kumaran: I would love to see but pure documentation, and I know for me I get a lot of joy on that. And then, of course, what we implement is a derivative of that. But, like
274 00:34:32.820 ⇒ 00:34:36.639 Uttam Kumaran: dude like that document, may live for the life of the company. You know.
275 00:34:36.940 ⇒ 00:34:37.960 Demilade Agboola: Fair enough, fair enough.
276 00:34:40.610 ⇒ 00:34:47.456 Uttam Kumaran: So okay, alright, I’ll shoot some stuff over to you this week.
277 00:34:48.310 ⇒ 00:34:52.939 Uttam Kumaran: and then, yeah, let’s go from there. I think we’ll plan to have another meeting on this sometime this week.
278 00:34:54.060 ⇒ 00:34:54.880 Demilade Agboola: Sounds good.
279 00:34:54.889 ⇒ 00:34:56.639 Uttam Kumaran: Okay, thank you. Dude.
280 00:34:56.639 ⇒ 00:34:57.249 Demilade Agboola: Alright, bye.
281 00:34:57.250 ⇒ 00:34:58.200 Uttam Kumaran: Alright, bye.