2025-05-02_summer_intern_cohort_plans_2d99258d

Meeting Title: Summer Intern Cohort Plans Date: 2025-05-02 Meeting participants: Uttam Kumaran, Amber Lin

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WEBVTT

1 00:03:30.810 ⇒ 00:03:32.250 Uttam Kumaran: Hello!

2 00:03:32.480 ⇒ 00:03:33.640 Amber Lin: Hi.

3 00:03:33.640 ⇒ 00:03:35.149 Uttam Kumaran: Alright! What’d you think of that?

4 00:03:35.500 ⇒ 00:03:40.959 Amber Lin: That was a good meeting. He was a really chill guy, and I can tell that you guys are friends, which is very important.

5 00:03:42.298 ⇒ 00:03:44.839 Uttam Kumaran: Craig is an interesting guy.

6 00:03:45.320 ⇒ 00:03:47.399 Amber Lin: What do you mean? Interesting guy.

7 00:03:47.400 ⇒ 00:03:51.350 Uttam Kumaran: It’s just like his brain works very, very fast.

8 00:03:52.400 ⇒ 00:03:54.939 Uttam Kumaran: So I’ve just gotten used to like

9 00:03:55.610 ⇒ 00:03:59.070 Uttam Kumaran: you could tell. He sort of like moves a little bit all over the place.

10 00:04:00.310 ⇒ 00:04:06.379 Uttam Kumaran: This for this client. I think the biggest thing is just gonna make sure to have a very, very clear expectations of what we’re doing

11 00:04:06.540 ⇒ 00:04:11.320 Uttam Kumaran: because he likes to sort of change. Requirements often.

12 00:04:11.650 ⇒ 00:04:12.780 Amber Lin: Oh, really.

13 00:04:12.780 ⇒ 00:04:13.460 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.

14 00:04:14.968 ⇒ 00:04:17.129 Amber Lin: How has it happened in the past?

15 00:04:17.915 ⇒ 00:04:21.280 Uttam Kumaran: We’ve done. We’ve done some like pro bono work for him.

16 00:04:21.810 ⇒ 00:04:22.730 Amber Lin: Oh!

17 00:04:23.470 ⇒ 00:04:24.790 Uttam Kumaran: Just because he’s our friend.

18 00:04:26.360 ⇒ 00:04:28.389 Uttam Kumaran: But you know he’s head of AI across.

19 00:04:29.030 ⇒ 00:04:29.910 Amber Lin: Yeah.

20 00:04:30.460 ⇒ 00:04:33.640 Uttam Kumaran: So he’s just like really really well connected. So

21 00:04:34.680 ⇒ 00:04:37.179 Uttam Kumaran: he’s been give. He gave us a little bit of intros, and

22 00:04:37.440 ⇒ 00:04:41.609 Uttam Kumaran: he’s been helping us a little bit on the business side, and we’ve given like maybe, like 5 or 10 h here and there.

23 00:04:42.340 ⇒ 00:04:44.720 Uttam Kumaran: But he likes our team. He loves Casey, by the way.

24 00:04:45.280 ⇒ 00:04:46.080 Amber Lin: 4.

25 00:04:46.080 ⇒ 00:04:47.940 Uttam Kumaran: I mean what’s not to love, but.

26 00:04:47.940 ⇒ 00:04:48.630 Amber Lin: Yeah.

27 00:04:51.000 ⇒ 00:04:59.100 Uttam Kumaran: yeah, I think it’s just something that we just wanna make sure we really nail in that document what we’re doing and how long. It’s gonna take nothing out of the ordinary. But.

28 00:04:59.670 ⇒ 00:05:14.329 Amber Lin: Yeah, I feel like what all of it. What he’s asking 1st part is what we’re doing for sales. Second part. And then 1st part is a lot of education about current tools, and second part is honestly all we’re doing for the it of

29 00:05:14.440 ⇒ 00:05:19.229 Amber Lin: just essentially, I wanted to say, Hey, we could, we could re clip

30 00:05:19.430 ⇒ 00:05:22.879 Amber Lin: the zoom video that we just did. And that’s

31 00:05:22.990 ⇒ 00:05:27.159 Amber Lin: that’s like a play info that you can post

32 00:05:27.760 ⇒ 00:05:30.917 Amber Lin: like how to use AI in your

33 00:05:31.820 ⇒ 00:05:32.550 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.

34 00:05:32.550 ⇒ 00:05:34.479 Amber Lin: Yeah, just clip that post that.

35 00:05:34.650 ⇒ 00:05:42.100 Uttam Kumaran: I mean, that’s the thing. That’s why he’s like, well, so the the thing with Craig is he has this group. It’s about yeah, just 350 people. It’s basically like

36 00:05:42.370 ⇒ 00:05:48.935 Uttam Kumaran: any of your favorite e-commerce, or like retail beauty. Like

37 00:05:50.140 ⇒ 00:05:55.340 Uttam Kumaran: beauty, like Harry’s like D to C companies he’s connected to.

38 00:05:55.580 ⇒ 00:05:58.220 Uttam Kumaran: Wow, yeah. So

39 00:05:58.960 ⇒ 00:06:04.499 Uttam Kumaran: he’s not. He’s like, but he’s so he’s in the ear of, like every major CEO, and like e-commerce, basically.

40 00:06:04.970 ⇒ 00:06:05.640 Uttam Kumaran: oh.

41 00:06:05.640 ⇒ 00:06:06.400 Amber Lin: That’s it.

42 00:06:07.940 ⇒ 00:06:09.200 Amber Lin: That’s so impressive.

43 00:06:09.460 ⇒ 00:06:17.850 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, so his full his. So to even go one step further, Craig is basically the reason why I got connected is I got connected through a friend

44 00:06:18.120 ⇒ 00:06:25.745 Uttam Kumaran: name I got connected to a friend named what’s it called?

45 00:06:27.030 ⇒ 00:06:31.239 Uttam Kumaran: through Clint. My friend at Wild is they’re they’re like.

46 00:06:31.430 ⇒ 00:06:33.180 Uttam Kumaran: you know, Patrick works at Wild.

47 00:06:33.760 ⇒ 00:06:42.540 Uttam Kumaran: So CEO of the company Patrick works that intro me to Craig Craig was just calling like probably like 30 40 people a day just being like, how can I help you?

48 00:06:42.970 ⇒ 00:06:43.890 Amber Lin: Bam.

49 00:06:43.890 ⇒ 00:06:48.840 Uttam Kumaran: And I just happened to be someone that he called, and then we just kept in touch.

50 00:06:49.030 ⇒ 00:06:53.349 Uttam Kumaran: And then I’m in that meet. I’m in that group now where I’m not an e-commerce founder.

51 00:06:53.820 ⇒ 00:06:55.030 Amber Lin: But I.

52 00:06:55.030 ⇒ 00:06:56.989 Uttam Kumaran: Sit in and watch. I like.

53 00:06:57.764 ⇒ 00:06:59.780 Uttam Kumaran: Perry’s like all these.

54 00:07:00.020 ⇒ 00:07:02.790 Amber Lin: Do that. That’s so incredible.

55 00:07:02.790 ⇒ 00:07:11.389 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah. So he, he, basically, he’s like networking like a maniac. And his whole he literally is like, only thing I want to do is, be helpful to people, and that’ll just take me where I want to go.

56 00:07:11.610 ⇒ 00:07:20.719 Uttam Kumaran: And now he’s basically left with this, like great community of like all the top Ceos of every e-commerce company that he’s sort of like. What do I do with this? You know.

57 00:07:20.720 ⇒ 00:07:21.700 Amber Lin: Oh!

58 00:07:21.700 ⇒ 00:07:22.350 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.

59 00:07:22.660 ⇒ 00:07:24.290 Amber Lin: That’s so inspiring.

60 00:07:26.530 ⇒ 00:07:28.239 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, it’s kind of crazy.

61 00:07:28.240 ⇒ 00:07:29.090 Amber Lin: Yeah.

62 00:07:31.710 ⇒ 00:07:32.780 Amber Lin: Oh.

63 00:07:36.020 ⇒ 00:07:43.240 Amber Lin: okay. I shared with you a intern cohort document on in our dms.

64 00:07:43.856 ⇒ 00:07:48.900 Amber Lin: Why don’t we pick off on there? I know we wanted to talk about it last week

65 00:07:49.020 ⇒ 00:07:50.530 Amber Lin: didn’t have time.

66 00:07:51.350 ⇒ 00:07:57.375 Amber Lin: It was a few thoughts that I posted in there. But

67 00:07:59.130 ⇒ 00:08:06.629 Amber Lin: intern, how do you want to approach this? Or, let’s say, like, why are we doing this to start it off?

68 00:08:10.320 ⇒ 00:08:16.379 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I mean, I I think, like, what is the goal of any intern group is that you

69 00:08:16.860 ⇒ 00:08:24.130 Uttam Kumaran: potentially get a chance at like people that are junior. But then we who are like probably not that expensive. But

70 00:08:24.240 ⇒ 00:08:29.740 Uttam Kumaran: we then can kind of like, show them what we’re doing, and then see if they want to convert to full time employees.

71 00:08:29.880 ⇒ 00:08:33.259 Uttam Kumaran: I think additionally, it’s good way to sort of give back.

72 00:08:34.110 ⇒ 00:08:39.350 Uttam Kumaran: And last year we had 5 interns all unpaid.

73 00:08:39.750 ⇒ 00:08:44.889 Uttam Kumaran: What it they it was not really it. Honestly, it was kind of a distraction like it kind of like.

74 00:08:45.430 ⇒ 00:08:49.589 Uttam Kumaran: I don’t know. I I mean. I think it was helpful for a couple of them. The other one’s kinda like

75 00:08:49.690 ⇒ 00:08:51.259 Uttam Kumaran: just didn’t work, but.

76 00:08:51.260 ⇒ 00:08:52.100 Amber Lin: Hmm.

77 00:08:52.100 ⇒ 00:08:55.509 Uttam Kumaran: That was also because I was like, it was just me managing 5 interns. And I was like, you know.

78 00:08:56.070 ⇒ 00:08:58.659 Uttam Kumaran: they got like, no attention. So

79 00:08:58.850 ⇒ 00:09:00.909 Uttam Kumaran: yeah, that’s sort of like what I was.

80 00:09:01.580 ⇒ 00:09:03.469 Uttam Kumaran: And that’s kind of like what I was thinking of.

81 00:09:03.890 ⇒ 00:09:05.090 Uttam Kumaran: Well, what do you think.

82 00:09:06.214 ⇒ 00:09:15.700 Amber Lin: I think that’s a great idea to have interns for me. My immediate thought is like, Oh, this is a marketing opportunity, especially especially on Linkedin.

83 00:09:17.000 ⇒ 00:09:20.520 Amber Lin: the most active people. There are people trying to find jobs.

84 00:09:20.800 ⇒ 00:09:21.350 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.

85 00:09:21.350 ⇒ 00:09:28.389 Amber Lin: Professionals don’t really care because they have a job. The only people that go there are people who want to post.

86 00:09:28.540 ⇒ 00:09:30.420 Amber Lin: or who people

87 00:09:30.960 ⇒ 00:09:35.200 Amber Lin: that’s looking for a job. And occasionally people who want to learn and keep up with stuff.

88 00:09:36.990 ⇒ 00:09:38.290 Uttam Kumaran: So, okay.

89 00:09:38.290 ⇒ 00:09:40.229 Amber Lin: Having opportunities open

90 00:09:40.410 ⇒ 00:09:47.449 Amber Lin: like. That’s why all the big companies do to rare fairs. They don’t really hire from them. That’s their marketing

91 00:09:47.630 ⇒ 00:09:58.160 Amber Lin: skin, like the all of the career fairs I went to were not very helpful, because they’re there to

92 00:09:58.520 ⇒ 00:10:02.309 Amber Lin: take create visibility for their company.

93 00:10:05.140 ⇒ 00:10:09.410 Amber Lin: And we are doing a lot of really, really exciting stuff.

94 00:10:09.900 ⇒ 00:10:16.240 Amber Lin: And once you say, Hey, we’re hiring, not even for interns, but even just for more roles

95 00:10:16.630 ⇒ 00:10:21.330 Amber Lin: like that puts a puts us up somewhere, makes them look at our company.

96 00:10:22.950 ⇒ 00:10:27.049 Amber Lin: Drive engagement for a post because they want to get noticed by us.

97 00:10:28.060 ⇒ 00:10:33.079 Amber Lin: So on. A very evil note. Hiring sometimes is a marketing scheme.

98 00:10:33.800 ⇒ 00:10:34.710 Uttam Kumaran: Yes.

99 00:10:39.680 ⇒ 00:10:42.600 Uttam Kumaran: So I’m I’m game for that, too, like

100 00:10:42.760 ⇒ 00:10:54.839 Uttam Kumaran: I think I want. I mean, I don’t want to like my aptitude, for my hunger for distraction is at an all time low, so I don’t want to do anything that distracts us from the company, winning.

101 00:10:55.240 ⇒ 00:10:59.970 Uttam Kumaran: So I wanna really like, if we take interns.

102 00:11:00.190 ⇒ 00:11:02.389 Uttam Kumaran: we really try to get out of it.

103 00:11:03.720 ⇒ 00:11:05.720 Uttam Kumaran: Otherwise. It’s a distraction for us.

104 00:11:05.920 ⇒ 00:11:06.710 Amber Lin: Totally

105 00:11:11.110 ⇒ 00:11:13.720 Amber Lin: Where do we need intros?

106 00:11:15.050 ⇒ 00:11:17.630 Amber Lin: Let me start a Gbt conversation.

107 00:11:17.960 ⇒ 00:11:20.670 Amber Lin: but just immediately like, what do you think.

108 00:11:23.485 ⇒ 00:11:24.090 Uttam Kumaran: Sales.

109 00:11:24.980 ⇒ 00:11:25.840 Amber Lin: Hmm.

110 00:11:26.040 ⇒ 00:11:37.100 Uttam Kumaran: Like, I really don’t care about getting interns on the date, like, the problem is, my network of people are technical. So all the people interested in interning for us are technical except for Ryan’s

111 00:11:37.200 ⇒ 00:11:37.870 Uttam Kumaran: brother.

112 00:11:42.240 ⇒ 00:11:46.730 Uttam Kumaran: But like our number one problem right now is not data. It’s sales.

113 00:11:47.060 ⇒ 00:11:48.140 Amber Lin: Hmm.

114 00:11:48.700 ⇒ 00:11:49.730 Uttam Kumaran: So.

115 00:11:54.020 ⇒ 00:12:03.199 Amber Lin: Cool. So that’s a good starting point of do we want cause? I think our gap is one

116 00:12:03.830 ⇒ 00:12:09.890 Amber Lin: in sales and 2 in the analysis, part of

117 00:12:10.160 ⇒ 00:12:21.930 Amber Lin: more consulting, based client, more consulting, erring people. And for those like, we could

118 00:12:22.970 ⇒ 00:12:26.720 Amber Lin: focus on less technical folks because we are a consultancy

119 00:12:26.950 ⇒ 00:12:29.830 Amber Lin: right? There is a consulting name, and

120 00:12:29.990 ⇒ 00:12:37.459 Amber Lin: we can just start that like just recruit for that type of talent, too. So it depends on

121 00:12:38.800 ⇒ 00:12:40.419 Amber Lin: what you want.

122 00:12:41.030 ⇒ 00:12:43.939 Amber Lin: I’m just starting the conversation with Gpd. Now.

123 00:12:44.770 ⇒ 00:12:45.856 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I,

124 00:12:53.450 ⇒ 00:13:00.720 Amber Lin: Oh, wow! I’m gonna copy and paste this conversation in the in a notion dog.

125 00:13:03.129 ⇒ 00:13:08.760 Amber Lin: Check it out. It cut. It also suggested not really data team.

126 00:13:11.460 ⇒ 00:13:12.870 Uttam Kumaran: Wait suggested what.

127 00:13:13.640 ⇒ 00:13:17.520 Amber Lin: It also said that we shouldn’t really hire for data.

128 00:13:17.960 ⇒ 00:13:18.869 Uttam Kumaran: Oh, really.

129 00:13:18.870 ⇒ 00:13:22.900 Amber Lin: Yeah. So now I’m more interested in reading what it said.

130 00:13:27.050 ⇒ 00:13:28.878 Uttam Kumaran: What is? What did it say to

131 00:13:33.800 ⇒ 00:13:35.490 Uttam Kumaran: What did it say to do then?

132 00:13:36.000 ⇒ 00:13:45.760 Amber Lin: So is that what areas will make sense? Right? Ai adoption

133 00:13:45.900 ⇒ 00:13:49.469 Amber Lin: marketing content, go to market sales, Ops.

134 00:13:49.980 ⇒ 00:13:57.860 Amber Lin: not data team. And then remote culture, and Hr. Ops, which Hannah is kind of doing right now.

135 00:13:58.500 ⇒ 00:14:00.899 Amber Lin: just today for the Friday meeting.

136 00:14:00.900 ⇒ 00:14:01.530 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.

137 00:14:01.870 ⇒ 00:14:02.470 Amber Lin: Hmm

138 00:14:05.880 ⇒ 00:14:09.749 Amber Lin: like we don’t even have. We can also hire like Mba students.

139 00:14:16.530 ⇒ 00:14:17.250 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.

140 00:14:26.180 ⇒ 00:14:29.909 Amber Lin: And it also, it can just also continue.

141 00:14:29.910 ⇒ 00:14:35.039 Uttam Kumaran: Like, yeah, I I mean, I, this is where your network, like, I, I feel like we need more

142 00:14:35.230 ⇒ 00:14:38.599 Uttam Kumaran: analysis. We need more like Mba type.

143 00:14:40.020 ⇒ 00:14:40.800 Uttam Kumaran: Stuff.

144 00:14:40.800 ⇒ 00:14:41.520 Amber Lin: -

145 00:14:42.120 ⇒ 00:14:43.130 Uttam Kumaran: Right like.

146 00:14:46.770 ⇒ 00:14:53.650 Uttam Kumaran: like, I need people. I need Mbas. I think I also want people who use AI like to anyone we hire needs to be like

147 00:14:54.100 ⇒ 00:14:59.030 Uttam Kumaran: using AI like on a different planet like needs to be using AI more than me.

148 00:15:01.500 ⇒ 00:15:06.959 Uttam Kumaran: How can you be an intern right now? How can you be like young in tech right now? Not like using AI like every minute.

149 00:15:06.960 ⇒ 00:15:08.120 Amber Lin: I’m just wondering.

150 00:15:11.371 ⇒ 00:15:13.060 Amber Lin: Are we planning to pay them.

151 00:15:14.671 ⇒ 00:15:18.599 Uttam Kumaran: And I this is where I don’t know. Like last year I didn’t have to pay anyone.

152 00:15:19.070 ⇒ 00:15:22.360 Amber Lin: I would rather like, I would rather not

153 00:15:24.100 ⇒ 00:15:28.719 Uttam Kumaran: But I don’t know. Like I’ve I’ve I’ve been in. I’ve only done paid internships.

154 00:15:29.120 ⇒ 00:15:33.380 Uttam Kumaran: Would I take an unpaid one? Yeah, cause you know why the job market sucks right now.

155 00:15:34.720 ⇒ 00:15:35.630 Uttam Kumaran: So.

156 00:15:35.990 ⇒ 00:15:37.960 Amber Lin: So this is where really we highlight

157 00:15:38.340 ⇒ 00:15:40.350 Amber Lin: all the cool stuff we’re doing.

158 00:15:40.640 ⇒ 00:15:41.280 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.

159 00:15:41.710 ⇒ 00:15:42.280 Amber Lin: Hmm!

160 00:16:02.010 ⇒ 00:16:04.639 Amber Lin: So who would oversee the interns.

161 00:16:07.750 ⇒ 00:16:14.140 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, this is where it’s like, it depends. If they’re engineering, then it has to sort of go under, probably like a wish. Maybe if it’s like.

162 00:16:14.140 ⇒ 00:16:16.680 Amber Lin: I don’t think we want any engineering folks right.

163 00:16:16.680 ⇒ 00:16:18.570 Uttam Kumaran: So let’s just write off engineering.

164 00:16:18.570 ⇒ 00:16:26.000 Amber Lin: Yeah, just no, no tech, no too technical stuff like analysis, maybe. But analysis doesn’t really need that much technical stuff.

165 00:16:26.310 ⇒ 00:16:31.400 Amber Lin: It’s mostly, do you know these business ideas? Do you know where what to think.

166 00:16:32.120 ⇒ 00:16:34.550 Amber Lin: instead of actually doing it? Because they can.

167 00:16:34.550 ⇒ 00:16:41.780 Uttam Kumaran: I guess my question is, you want to get anyone on the delivery side, just like delivering for clients.

168 00:16:42.890 ⇒ 00:16:46.215 Amber Lin: Not one of my questions for you.

169 00:16:53.470 ⇒ 00:16:58.810 Uttam Kumaran: I don’t know because I don’t. I kind of don’t want to be like, Hey, we have our intern on this like it’s kinda like.

170 00:16:59.210 ⇒ 00:16:59.790 Amber Lin: It’s just.

171 00:16:59.790 ⇒ 00:17:00.480 Uttam Kumaran: Cool.

172 00:17:01.460 ⇒ 00:17:07.739 Uttam Kumaran: I would rather have like an analysis intern paired with Annie that, like helps Annie produce stuff.

173 00:17:09.290 ⇒ 00:17:10.880 Uttam Kumaran: That’s interesting to me.

174 00:17:10.880 ⇒ 00:17:15.640 Amber Lin: Okay, analysis and.

175 00:17:15.640 ⇒ 00:17:20.110 Uttam Kumaran: Data modeling and data. Engineering is hard, like none of the interns I had

176 00:17:20.680 ⇒ 00:17:24.100 Uttam Kumaran: like they just couldn’t like you just so hard to learn this like I don’t.

177 00:17:24.109 ⇒ 00:17:29.289 Amber Lin: Yeah. And I don’t want to. We don’t have, or after 3 months is going to be their learning curve.

178 00:17:29.709 ⇒ 00:17:34.219 Amber Lin: We want something that’s fast to get on hands on and impactful for us.

179 00:17:34.839 ⇒ 00:17:39.859 Amber Lin: So analysis, most of them already know how to use those tools.

180 00:17:40.269 ⇒ 00:17:41.259 Amber Lin: And

181 00:17:47.129 ⇒ 00:17:48.579 Amber Lin: you do that.

182 00:17:51.159 ⇒ 00:17:52.159 Amber Lin: How will we.

183 00:17:52.160 ⇒ 00:17:57.300 Uttam Kumaran: Analysis. Okay? So I think they could help with analysis decks. They could help. You could get an intern.

184 00:17:59.150 ⇒ 00:18:00.530 Amber Lin: The, Pm. Intern.

185 00:18:01.160 ⇒ 00:18:01.860 Uttam Kumaran: Sure

186 00:18:02.900 ⇒ 00:18:08.230 Uttam Kumaran: this is where, like, I just don’t like, I’m down. I just don’t want to really like I can’t be in charge of it.

187 00:18:10.710 ⇒ 00:18:15.980 Uttam Kumaran: So if it’s gonna be a distraction, then I’m not really like too interested.

188 00:18:16.200 ⇒ 00:18:17.060 Amber Lin: I see

189 00:18:19.730 ⇒ 00:18:21.999 Amber Lin: Don’t think we can handle 4 people.

190 00:18:22.300 ⇒ 00:18:22.940 Uttam Kumaran: Okay.

191 00:18:24.130 ⇒ 00:18:30.125 Amber Lin: Because who else would right now, who else than me would be running this cohort.

192 00:18:31.860 ⇒ 00:18:32.789 Uttam Kumaran: No, I know.

193 00:18:39.430 ⇒ 00:18:41.140 Amber Lin: And then we should ask Annie.

194 00:18:41.590 ⇒ 00:18:47.130 Amber Lin: She probably had the analyst track. She probably interned before

195 00:18:47.660 ⇒ 00:18:57.299 Amber Lin: somewhere, and she ended up at pretty big companies, so she probably has an insight of how like this stuff is for a role like hers.

196 00:18:59.920 ⇒ 00:19:02.409 Uttam Kumaran: We’re struggling on the analysis side.

197 00:19:03.460 ⇒ 00:19:08.160 Uttam Kumaran: Like the proactive insight side. We’re really struggling on sales.

198 00:19:09.270 ⇒ 00:19:13.030 Uttam Kumaran: And we’re struggling on, bridging AI

199 00:19:13.140 ⇒ 00:19:19.700 Uttam Kumaran: into our operations like getting AI into every single nook and cranny of our company. We’re struggling.

200 00:19:20.500 ⇒ 00:19:22.790 Uttam Kumaran: It’s not that we’re struggling in that.

201 00:19:23.200 ⇒ 00:19:28.300 Uttam Kumaran: We can’t do it. It’s like it needs to accelerate.

202 00:19:28.810 ⇒ 00:19:34.940 Amber Lin: Yeah, like, I’m stressed a bit thin, like I’ve been trying to get to the AI.

203 00:19:35.110 ⇒ 00:19:37.101 Uttam Kumaran: No, no, but it’s it’s more of like

204 00:19:37.350 ⇒ 00:19:37.900 Amber Lin: So it will be.

205 00:19:37.900 ⇒ 00:19:39.620 Uttam Kumaran: We’re just sitting on it. We’re waiting.

206 00:19:39.620 ⇒ 00:19:47.489 Amber Lin: Yeah, I know. That’s that’s what I know, what you’re talking about, having someone to drive that to do. The.

207 00:19:47.830 ⇒ 00:19:51.639 Uttam Kumaran: Basically like A, that’s where, if we hired someone technical, I would be like

208 00:19:52.120 ⇒ 00:19:56.689 Uttam Kumaran: someone technical who wants to just like, get AI everywhere.

209 00:19:59.580 ⇒ 00:20:04.319 Uttam Kumaran: That’s interesting to me, cause that person doesn’t really work on like their client is like us.

210 00:20:04.790 ⇒ 00:20:06.580 Amber Lin: Yeah, of.

211 00:20:06.900 ⇒ 00:20:09.989 Uttam Kumaran: And then it’s like Miguel’s like the manager, or something.

212 00:20:10.620 ⇒ 00:20:24.510 Amber Lin: Yeah, get AI anywhere or so we should hire for someone that has a lot of interest in exploring AI tools, or at least at least knows a lot of AI tools. And it’s very, very good with people, you know.

213 00:20:25.280 ⇒ 00:20:29.480 Amber Lin: or persistent, because most of their role is to

214 00:20:30.830 ⇒ 00:20:34.109 Amber Lin: go shadow all of our teams.

215 00:20:34.320 ⇒ 00:20:41.169 Amber Lin: individual person like individually, and see how they can insert that and check on them frequently.

216 00:20:41.760 ⇒ 00:20:46.460 Amber Lin: Of all these workflows, where can you insert. Have you been using it? How can you use it?

217 00:20:48.250 ⇒ 00:20:54.199 Amber Lin: It’s a very one on one like manual process.

218 00:20:57.390 ⇒ 00:21:01.800 Uttam Kumaran: I just think, also, like, I mean, we, you basically need an aipm.

219 00:21:03.150 ⇒ 00:21:03.880 Uttam Kumaran: Right.

220 00:21:05.340 ⇒ 00:21:06.260 Amber Lin: What does that mean?

221 00:21:06.260 ⇒ 00:21:09.419 Uttam Kumaran: I think, like, I think if you had a a Pm.

222 00:21:09.560 ⇒ 00:21:13.080 Uttam Kumaran: I think if you add an intern, you could basically have them. Pm, the AI team.

223 00:21:13.380 ⇒ 00:21:14.040 Amber Lin: Hmm.

224 00:21:15.190 ⇒ 00:21:17.579 Uttam Kumaran: And then you’re you basically like, sit above that.

225 00:21:18.770 ⇒ 00:21:20.040 Amber Lin: How will that work.

226 00:21:21.170 ⇒ 00:21:22.250 Uttam Kumaran: That person.

227 00:21:22.250 ⇒ 00:21:27.199 Amber Lin: Does. The ait sometimes needs driving forward like? What would the intern.

228 00:21:27.510 ⇒ 00:21:32.049 Uttam Kumaran: All the tickets, all the scoping, all of the making sure it gets used

229 00:21:32.810 ⇒ 00:21:35.740 Uttam Kumaran: booking meetings like just basically taking all like

230 00:21:36.120 ⇒ 00:21:40.749 Uttam Kumaran: outside of driving the thing forward, which again, you would hopefully be able to show them how to do.

231 00:21:41.790 ⇒ 00:21:50.839 Uttam Kumaran: Like. For example, there’s about like in the backlog in the AI thing. There’s like 30 different ideas that just like need to get scoped and sort of broken out before they can get even brought up.

232 00:21:50.990 ⇒ 00:21:51.690 Amber Lin: Hmm.

233 00:21:52.360 ⇒ 00:21:57.959 Uttam Kumaran: So that’s part, I think. Like, that’s a great opportunity, very low risk.

234 00:21:59.100 ⇒ 00:22:01.309 Uttam Kumaran: And they get thrown right into the fire.

235 00:22:01.480 ⇒ 00:22:02.210 Amber Lin: Hmm.

236 00:22:02.830 ⇒ 00:22:09.500 Amber Lin: yeah, essentially, I I want to train them while they’re doing the job. And I don’t want to do any like initial training

237 00:22:10.727 ⇒ 00:22:14.220 Amber Lin: and scoping with the help of Gpt. Is not that hard

238 00:22:18.770 ⇒ 00:22:21.289 Amber Lin: help with Miguel and Gbt?

239 00:22:22.450 ⇒ 00:22:23.390 Uttam Kumaran: I agree.

240 00:22:23.930 ⇒ 00:22:25.710 Amber Lin: Okay, that’s a good place to start.

241 00:22:26.180 ⇒ 00:22:28.940 Amber Lin: So we’ll have a Pm.

242 00:22:29.290 ⇒ 00:22:34.420 Amber Lin: For AI. I’m not that confident to have them on the client team as

243 00:22:34.740 ⇒ 00:22:38.190 Amber Lin: what if they leave? And then we ramp them up, and they have to leave again.

244 00:22:40.300 ⇒ 00:22:42.749 Uttam Kumaran: Well, the goal is for them to join us right.

245 00:22:43.110 ⇒ 00:22:48.149 Amber Lin: But what if? What if they have work? Not school right through the summer?

246 00:22:48.400 ⇒ 00:22:52.849 Amber Lin: I don’t know how so will we be aiming for people who have already graduated.

247 00:22:53.170 ⇒ 00:22:56.859 Amber Lin: then would they actually take unpaid work if they have already graduated.

248 00:22:58.270 ⇒ 00:22:59.080 Uttam Kumaran: That’s

249 00:22:59.310 ⇒ 00:23:05.140 Uttam Kumaran: a good question, I mean, do we need to have equal policy across all interns? I don’t know. It’s sort of like.

250 00:23:05.920 ⇒ 00:23:10.339 Amber Lin: As long as they don’t talk between themselves, but I don’t know how we can prevent that.

251 00:23:11.060 ⇒ 00:23:23.940 Uttam Kumaran: I mean, I I just like I don’t really fear like I don’t fear that. What do you mean? It’s like some people need the internship because they need something like this is where right now in tech, I mean, I don’t know how you I don’t know. Like, did you do a lot of applying before this.

252 00:23:25.239 ⇒ 00:23:27.660 Amber Lin: What do you mean? Like a lot of applications?

253 00:23:29.140 ⇒ 00:23:29.965 Amber Lin: Yeah.

254 00:23:30.790 ⇒ 00:23:32.309 Uttam Kumaran: So, you know, it’s kind of brutal.

255 00:23:32.908 ⇒ 00:23:36.700 Amber Lin: My rate was like 1 800,

256 00:23:36.830 ⇒ 00:23:41.330 Amber Lin: especially because the roles are not that technical. And like.

257 00:23:42.830 ⇒ 00:23:46.939 Amber Lin: I’m in a role where essentially anyone can do. My rate was like.

258 00:23:47.470 ⇒ 00:23:50.520 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, you’re in a junior like, Pm, role, it’s like one of the toughest.

259 00:23:50.790 ⇒ 00:24:05.239 Uttam Kumaran: It’s like the most competitive role, because it’s people trying to get into tech, but like you don’t don’t like on paper, have much to offer. I’m not saying, don’t you clearly have a lot to offer, but it’s a tough pool competition. That’s why it’s kind of like an employer’s market right now.

260 00:24:05.870 ⇒ 00:24:06.460 Amber Lin: Holy.

261 00:24:06.460 ⇒ 00:24:10.989 Uttam Kumaran: Which means some people will just take unpaid just because they need something on their resume.

262 00:24:11.670 ⇒ 00:24:12.760 Amber Lin: That’s true.

263 00:24:13.400 ⇒ 00:24:15.380 Uttam Kumaran: So that’s why I don’t really fear

264 00:24:16.610 ⇒ 00:24:21.149 Uttam Kumaran: unpaid. I mean, we can also do something. But like I’m like.

265 00:24:21.470 ⇒ 00:24:22.650 Amber Lin: Might as well not.

266 00:24:22.650 ⇒ 00:24:25.039 Uttam Kumaran: What I would do. I would rather be 0.

267 00:24:25.040 ⇒ 00:24:25.630 Amber Lin: Okay.

268 00:24:26.510 ⇒ 00:24:38.420 Uttam Kumaran: And we start there and then maybe if it’s like we have some really sick people we wanna like coach from like not going to face. But like, if you’re going to Internet Facebook, you’re kind of maybe you’re not even that good. Honestly.

269 00:24:43.210 ⇒ 00:24:44.830 Amber Lin: So I will.

270 00:24:45.330 ⇒ 00:24:48.359 Amber Lin: It seems like we. Only we need analysis. Interim.

271 00:24:48.730 ⇒ 00:24:53.559 Amber Lin: Pm, intern for AI team and a sales intern. What would the sales intern do?

272 00:24:58.600 ⇒ 00:24:59.270 Uttam Kumaran: Hmm.

273 00:25:01.990 ⇒ 00:25:07.480 Uttam Kumaran: I mean, basically work on go to market. I mean, like, if it depends, does this person wanna like

274 00:25:07.950 ⇒ 00:25:15.000 Uttam Kumaran: sell or do sales? Ops, right? Like they can either work on the go to market. Gtm, Ops team

275 00:25:24.920 ⇒ 00:25:30.460 Uttam Kumaran: or they can work directly for Robert. Basically.

276 00:25:34.190 ⇒ 00:25:43.310 Uttam Kumaran: it’s basically like you want to become. You want to get into tech sales like you could. Just that’s it. So you either work on like the tech operations team or you work directly for Robert. I think.

277 00:25:44.130 ⇒ 00:25:51.304 Amber Lin: I see. I feel like the tech operations team might take a bit more of

278 00:25:53.010 ⇒ 00:25:55.289 Amber Lin: of a onboarding process.

279 00:25:55.420 ⇒ 00:25:58.079 Amber Lin: If it’s something they can start immediately.

280 00:25:58.660 ⇒ 00:26:00.559 Amber Lin: It could be helping Robert.

281 00:26:01.120 ⇒ 00:26:08.410 Amber Lin: But where would they help? That doesn’t deteriorate the quality of our of our sales calls.

282 00:26:10.960 ⇒ 00:26:19.930 Uttam Kumaran: Oh, I don’t. Well, this is where that person would help. Basically use AI to get Robert, like pre reads do like put together, follow ups.

283 00:26:19.930 ⇒ 00:26:20.470 Amber Lin: But again.

284 00:26:20.470 ⇒ 00:26:23.599 Uttam Kumaran: They’re like helping clean up our sales. Notion.

285 00:26:25.210 ⇒ 00:26:31.340 Uttam Kumaran: You would do. You just do everything that a basically a typical like sales. It could be sales strategy or like.

286 00:26:32.030 ⇒ 00:26:35.269 Uttam Kumaran: I mean, I still, don’t think anybody is like

287 00:26:35.570 ⇒ 00:26:38.449 Uttam Kumaran: is gonna be well equipped to take the calls. But, like.

288 00:26:38.713 ⇒ 00:26:39.240 Amber Lin: Think so.

289 00:26:39.520 ⇒ 00:26:45.530 Uttam Kumaran: Prepping for the prepping, Robert for the calls, doing prospecting, applying for stuff on upwork.

290 00:26:46.160 ⇒ 00:26:48.010 Uttam Kumaran: Ripping AI through all of that

291 00:26:49.040 ⇒ 00:26:50.739 Uttam Kumaran: right like that’s kind of like.

292 00:26:50.740 ⇒ 00:26:52.750 Amber Lin: That’s so nice.

293 00:26:52.750 ⇒ 00:26:56.920 Uttam Kumaran: Sales, but it’s kind of like prospecting and.

294 00:26:56.920 ⇒ 00:26:57.630 Amber Lin: Hmm.

295 00:27:00.540 ⇒ 00:27:05.229 Uttam Kumaran: Basically like, how do we automate sales like? And then think about AI through the whole thing.

296 00:27:05.713 ⇒ 00:27:08.130 Amber Lin: Awesome. I think that’s great.

297 00:27:09.310 ⇒ 00:27:15.350 Amber Lin: That’s like A and how that’s attracted people to people, is as you said, a intro to tech sales.

298 00:27:17.610 ⇒ 00:27:22.339 Uttam Kumaran: Basically, I mean, basically intro to build like tech sales and building a sales organization.

299 00:27:23.400 ⇒ 00:27:24.020 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.

300 00:27:24.570 ⇒ 00:27:25.830 Amber Lin: Awesome. I like that.

301 00:27:28.545 ⇒ 00:27:32.929 Amber Lin: The stuff with Annie. So they’re gonna be working on client projects.

302 00:27:35.520 ⇒ 00:27:39.350 Uttam Kumaran: I think so. Yeah, I think working alongside any on client projects.

303 00:27:39.703 ⇒ 00:27:45.000 Amber Lin: Or is it gonna be our internal data? Analysis, we can use them to

304 00:27:45.290 ⇒ 00:27:47.559 Amber Lin: build out our internal dashboards.

305 00:27:48.410 ⇒ 00:27:49.230 Uttam Kumaran: Oh.

306 00:27:49.800 ⇒ 00:27:57.200 Uttam Kumaran: yeah, I think that could be nice to like, basically, yeah, I mean, honestly, that could be nice. I mean, Annie was gonna have to lead that, anyway. So.

307 00:27:57.200 ⇒ 00:27:59.730 Amber Lin: Yeah. And Annie, she said, like she.

308 00:28:00.050 ⇒ 00:28:05.929 Amber Lin: she generally is like 2 clients, is 2 projects simultaneously, is

309 00:28:06.120 ⇒ 00:28:11.029 Amber Lin: like decent for her, like 3 is kind of her limit is what I got from her.

310 00:28:16.930 ⇒ 00:28:21.960 Amber Lin: but definitely, I think, with direction from Annie or from you.

311 00:28:23.770 ⇒ 00:28:24.540 Uttam Kumaran: Okay.

312 00:28:25.340 ⇒ 00:28:31.690 Amber Lin: Okay, well, that’s all I needed. Spit out some more things.

313 00:28:32.000 ⇒ 00:28:39.280 Amber Lin: I’ll use this transcript quote, that’s all.

314 00:28:42.020 ⇒ 00:28:45.449 Amber Lin: Oh, is this the last call of your day?

315 00:28:46.687 ⇒ 00:28:50.660 Uttam Kumaran: Yes, and yes, unfortunately, it’s gonna rain here in Austin.

316 00:28:50.660 ⇒ 00:28:51.750 Amber Lin: Really.

317 00:28:52.300 ⇒ 00:28:52.970 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.

318 00:28:53.980 ⇒ 00:29:00.130 Amber Lin: Oh, I have an update. So my lease ends like mid August.

319 00:29:00.790 ⇒ 00:29:01.300 Uttam Kumaran: And.

320 00:29:01.300 ⇒ 00:29:02.530 Amber Lin: And I was like, huh!

321 00:29:03.060 ⇒ 00:29:07.739 Amber Lin: I was originally gonna find a place in La. And I was like, Do I have to stay in La.

322 00:29:08.110 ⇒ 00:29:08.849 Uttam Kumaran: To Austin.

323 00:29:09.334 ⇒ 00:29:12.240 Amber Lin: Literally, I was like, what’s the.

324 00:29:12.240 ⇒ 00:29:20.189 Uttam Kumaran: Wait. This is so crazy because I was thinking about this the other week where I was like, I wonder cause so you know, Jacob I was. We were messaging by Jacob.

325 00:29:20.360 ⇒ 00:29:21.240 Amber Lin: -Oh.

326 00:29:22.620 ⇒ 00:29:23.779 Amber Lin: Oh, yeah.

327 00:29:23.780 ⇒ 00:29:24.920 Uttam Kumaran: He’s in New York.

328 00:29:25.450 ⇒ 00:29:26.360 Amber Lin: Oh!

329 00:29:26.360 ⇒ 00:29:32.759 Uttam Kumaran: And so I was like Robert. He’s in New York, and you’re like, Oh, that’s kinda like kind of convenient. If he’s like can work from there.

330 00:29:33.750 ⇒ 00:29:35.240 Uttam Kumaran: That’d be great. I’m also like

331 00:29:35.600 ⇒ 00:29:50.329 Uttam Kumaran: fucking. It’d be great if someone would move to Austin. Like if you I was like damn, maybe maybe at some point you’ll get like, so interested in the business that you’d be like, okay, I gotta move to Austin and do that. I don’t know like I’m not. Gonna you don’t have to do that, but

332 00:29:50.630 ⇒ 00:29:53.140 Uttam Kumaran: it’s a it’s great here, and it’s cheap.

333 00:29:53.310 ⇒ 00:29:53.929 Uttam Kumaran: Sorry. Shake.

334 00:29:53.930 ⇒ 00:29:54.640 Amber Lin: I am.

335 00:29:54.870 ⇒ 00:29:58.810 Amber Lin: I was like I kinda wanna go to Hawaii.

336 00:29:59.260 ⇒ 00:30:01.729 Uttam Kumaran: Go to Hawaii. Yeah, go ahead.

337 00:30:01.730 ⇒ 00:30:03.360 Uttam Kumaran: Time zone is brutal, though.

338 00:30:04.094 ⇒ 00:30:04.830 Amber Lin: Huh!

339 00:30:04.830 ⇒ 00:30:06.350 Uttam Kumaran: The time zone is brutal.

340 00:30:06.650 ⇒ 00:30:13.730 Amber Lin: I know, but I’m mostly with my Asian engineers, so.

341 00:30:13.730 ⇒ 00:30:15.639 Uttam Kumaran: Yes, yes.

342 00:30:16.750 ⇒ 00:30:19.060 Uttam Kumaran: It is always light there, too.

343 00:30:21.610 ⇒ 00:30:27.660 Amber Lin: I’m not thinking, like listing the different options. And I was like okay, where should I go in the winter and it was

344 00:30:27.790 ⇒ 00:30:32.750 Amber Lin: everywhere in the south, on the closer to the border.

345 00:30:32.960 ⇒ 00:30:35.700 Uttam Kumaran: No, you’re gonna just trying to do like digital nomad.

346 00:30:36.200 ⇒ 00:30:40.619 Amber Lin: Yeah, I mean, that’s what I did when I was in Europe, mostly didn’t really go to school.

347 00:30:40.880 ⇒ 00:30:44.655 Amber Lin: brought my suitcase to class, so I can fly out after class.

348 00:30:44.970 ⇒ 00:30:48.029 Uttam Kumaran: You should go to, you should go to Utah for a bit. It’s really nice.

349 00:30:48.919 ⇒ 00:30:52.679 Uttam Kumaran: You should go to like Fort Collins in Colorado is really nice.

350 00:30:52.690 ⇒ 00:30:53.500 Amber Lin: Hmm.

351 00:30:53.500 ⇒ 00:30:56.270 Uttam Kumaran: San Diego, of course. Amazing, but you probably been there.

352 00:30:56.750 ⇒ 00:30:59.209 Amber Lin: Yeah, San Diego, is not that different from La.

353 00:30:59.210 ⇒ 00:31:03.490 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah. I mean, why don’t you go to New York for a bit?

354 00:31:03.710 ⇒ 00:31:05.699 Amber Lin: I was thinking about that.

355 00:31:05.700 ⇒ 00:31:07.919 Uttam Kumaran: New York’s insane. It’s expensive, though.

356 00:31:08.070 ⇒ 00:31:09.530 Amber Lin: Yeah, I, only want.

357 00:31:09.530 ⇒ 00:31:11.289 Uttam Kumaran: A lot of short term rental.

358 00:31:11.570 ⇒ 00:31:12.160 Amber Lin: Hmm.

359 00:31:12.160 ⇒ 00:31:14.140 Uttam Kumaran: They don’t do a lot of short term rentals.

360 00:31:14.140 ⇒ 00:31:17.880 Amber Lin: Yeah, that was my concern as well.

361 00:31:18.350 ⇒ 00:31:29.269 Amber Lin: But I’m going over there. What I’m gonna go visit Nico’s family in DC. We’re just gonna take the train up to New York. I haven’t been so I just wanna see what it’s like.

362 00:31:29.910 ⇒ 00:31:32.490 Amber Lin: But also the winter there is just awful.

363 00:31:33.380 ⇒ 00:31:34.160 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.

364 00:31:35.850 ⇒ 00:31:38.230 Amber Lin: Does it get really hot in New York in the summer.

365 00:31:38.550 ⇒ 00:31:40.070 Uttam Kumaran: Yes, you know.

366 00:31:41.030 ⇒ 00:31:44.431 Amber Lin: -Oh! When is it good to be there? Then.

367 00:31:44.810 ⇒ 00:31:49.970 Uttam Kumaran: You want to go right when it’s in fall, which it’s like fall for about 2 or 3 weeks.

368 00:31:50.210 ⇒ 00:31:50.910 Amber Lin: Was.

369 00:31:50.910 ⇒ 00:31:56.599 Uttam Kumaran: And then you want to go right about now, and where it’s like about to turn summer

370 00:31:56.900 ⇒ 00:32:00.520 Uttam Kumaran: any other time. It’s like kind of like useless.

371 00:32:02.740 ⇒ 00:32:06.140 Uttam Kumaran: I don’t know. I just like you can ask Robert, but like yeah, it’s

372 00:32:06.500 ⇒ 00:32:08.590 Uttam Kumaran: sort of nice for like 8 weeks,

373 00:32:10.940 ⇒ 00:32:11.950 Amber Lin: Wow!

374 00:32:13.070 ⇒ 00:32:17.319 Amber Lin: I’ll think about it. It’s supposed to be very expensive. I don’t think I’ll live there for long.

375 00:32:19.970 ⇒ 00:32:22.275 Amber Lin: That’s that’s an update I had.

376 00:32:23.280 ⇒ 00:32:26.289 Amber Lin: considering different places, taking suggestions, such.

377 00:32:26.290 ⇒ 00:32:28.500 Uttam Kumaran: Do do a stint in Austin.

378 00:32:31.160 ⇒ 00:32:31.630 Uttam Kumaran: I might.

379 00:32:32.090 ⇒ 00:32:34.130 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, dude, it’s nice here. It’s like.

380 00:32:39.820 ⇒ 00:32:42.589 Amber Lin: just want to do a quick one on one. And let you go.

381 00:32:42.590 ⇒ 00:32:43.320 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.

382 00:32:43.320 ⇒ 00:32:46.340 Amber Lin: Yeah, I haven’t had time to

383 00:32:46.500 ⇒ 00:32:48.450 Amber Lin: of writing my weekly reflection to spend.

384 00:32:48.450 ⇒ 00:32:50.489 Uttam Kumaran: Wow, okay, so it’s getting busy.

385 00:32:50.490 ⇒ 00:32:55.899 Amber Lin: It’s getting. It’s getting busy. I I like it, though I like what I’m doing. So

386 00:32:58.030 ⇒ 00:33:01.890 Amber Lin: spending a lot of time on strategy this week.

387 00:33:02.380 ⇒ 00:33:07.069 Amber Lin: This haven’t really ever have to think about it. So

388 00:33:07.220 ⇒ 00:33:10.320 Amber Lin: part of it is also understanding where to

389 00:33:10.540 ⇒ 00:33:18.360 Amber Lin: attack it from. And honestly, the book you sent me was very helpful because trying to find a framework to think about all these things, I was like, Okay, do I think about.

390 00:33:18.360 ⇒ 00:33:19.410 Uttam Kumaran: Did you read it?

391 00:33:19.410 ⇒ 00:33:22.110 Amber Lin: No Chatgp media Reddit.

392 00:33:22.110 ⇒ 00:33:23.530 Amber Lin: Oh, okay, okay.

393 00:33:23.530 ⇒ 00:33:24.950 Amber Lin: I needed a I needed a.

394 00:33:24.950 ⇒ 00:33:28.390 Uttam Kumaran: So boring. But it’s very, very. It’s like, literally like

395 00:33:29.140 ⇒ 00:33:34.479 Uttam Kumaran: I, because when I started the company, I basically went and read like every book on consulting.

396 00:33:35.320 ⇒ 00:33:37.430 Uttam Kumaran: And this one is like.

397 00:33:37.820 ⇒ 00:33:38.920 Amber Lin: The most helpful.

398 00:33:38.920 ⇒ 00:33:43.469 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, it’s like, it’s basically like the Bible for consulting.

399 00:33:44.600 ⇒ 00:33:46.829 Uttam Kumaran: Okay, this is what they teach in Mba.

400 00:33:47.420 ⇒ 00:33:52.399 Amber Lin: Yeah. And I really like the framework it had like, it just makes sense.

401 00:33:54.690 ⇒ 00:34:01.330 Uttam Kumaran: No, it’s it’s really, really good. The only other book that’s that’s like at this level for me is, I’m reading this book called Competitive Strategy.

402 00:34:01.330 ⇒ 00:34:02.050 Amber Lin: Hmm.

403 00:34:02.050 ⇒ 00:34:04.780 Uttam Kumaran: This is like just broad company strategy.

404 00:34:05.370 ⇒ 00:34:06.670 Uttam Kumaran: By Michael Porter.

405 00:34:06.900 ⇒ 00:34:07.450 Amber Lin: It.

406 00:34:07.620 ⇒ 00:34:12.190 Uttam Kumaran: This is like a real mba like my friend. And Mba. Was like dude. What are you doing reading that book? I’m like

407 00:34:13.230 ⇒ 00:34:14.479 Uttam Kumaran: running a business.

408 00:34:14.679 ⇒ 00:34:16.520 Uttam Kumaran: You’re just pause playing.

409 00:34:19.380 ⇒ 00:34:21.030 Amber Lin: For competitive strategy.

410 00:34:21.030 ⇒ 00:34:22.879 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, it’s by Michael Porter.

411 00:34:23.340 ⇒ 00:34:26.770 Uttam Kumaran: This one’s very dense. It’s it’s like, actually, really kind of hard to get through.

412 00:34:26.770 ⇒ 00:34:29.129 Amber Lin: Is that the porters 5 forces, porter.

413 00:34:29.870 ⇒ 00:34:31.880 Amber Lin: Oh, damn okay.

414 00:34:31.880 ⇒ 00:34:34.280 Uttam Kumaran: This is this is the book it came from.

415 00:34:37.250 ⇒ 00:34:39.820 Amber Lin: I see. Well, I’ll take a read.

416 00:34:40.179 ⇒ 00:34:43.009 Uttam Kumaran: Or at least just tell you easy to remember.

417 00:34:45.730 ⇒ 00:35:02.481 Amber Lin: Yeah. So been on the strategy part. Started with the people stuff since I was gonna since I was calling Hannah. So have some have my thoughts down on the people stuff. And then just the really heavy part is really

418 00:35:04.380 ⇒ 00:35:11.800 Amber Lin: how to improve delivery right? Like expert client service, exceptional client service

419 00:35:12.430 ⇒ 00:35:18.190 Amber Lin: and delivery, and then also, like running our internal engines

420 00:35:18.330 ⇒ 00:35:20.920 Amber Lin: to optimize for your financial success.

421 00:35:21.450 ⇒ 00:35:25.280 Amber Lin: So those 2 areas I haven’t looked into.

422 00:35:25.280 ⇒ 00:35:27.920 Uttam Kumaran: How do you? I guess like. Tell me.

423 00:35:28.856 ⇒ 00:35:32.539 Uttam Kumaran: have a couple of questions as as like one. I think that.

424 00:35:32.960 ⇒ 00:35:39.540 Uttam Kumaran: And again, I don’t know what you want the title to be. I don’t think me and Robert really carry their way, but the Chief of staff stuff.

425 00:35:40.130 ⇒ 00:35:43.159 Uttam Kumaran: I think it was actually like a really natural evolution.

426 00:35:43.260 ⇒ 00:35:49.890 Uttam Kumaran: I mean, part part of it is like at this company. I feel like we move really slow. But I do think that we actually on average are moving very fast.

427 00:35:50.290 ⇒ 00:35:50.925 Uttam Kumaran: And

428 00:35:52.330 ⇒ 00:35:56.630 Uttam Kumaran: I don’t think we move very slow, but like we can. I think we can move faster, but.

429 00:35:57.544 ⇒ 00:36:02.790 Uttam Kumaran: I thought it was like a perfect place where it’s you know, I was sort of describing. I was talking to my girlfriend, and I was like.

430 00:36:03.299 ⇒ 00:36:15.739 Uttam Kumaran: I was just telling her about the role. And I was like, yeah. So we decided to offer amber the sheep of savage like, what is that? I’m like, yeah, good question. I guess I would describe it as basically executing on.

431 00:36:15.990 ⇒ 00:36:20.840 Uttam Kumaran: It’s like executing leadership, vision and.

432 00:36:21.795 ⇒ 00:36:27.370 Uttam Kumaran: Like setting leadership up to make decisions better and faster.

433 00:36:28.080 ⇒ 00:36:32.679 Amber Lin: Yeah, I would call this strategy Ops, as I researched online.

434 00:36:33.120 ⇒ 00:36:34.310 Uttam Kumaran: Strategy Ops.

435 00:36:34.310 ⇒ 00:36:37.380 Amber Lin: Yeah, there’s a lot of different ops out there.

436 00:36:38.630 ⇒ 00:36:39.690 Uttam Kumaran: Okay, yeah, that’s

437 00:36:40.420 ⇒ 00:37:04.269 Uttam Kumaran: I feel okay. With that. I I think it’s also like, for example, me and Robert, we can easily articulate where we want the company to go, but like getting that in between, and then I can also go up to individuals and sort of affect them to move, change, but like getting that codified in a document tracking towards it, doing the hygiene. It’s sort of like leadership. All the leadership hygiene, executive hygiene.

438 00:37:04.520 ⇒ 00:37:08.990 Uttam Kumaran: That’s where it’s tough. Because, yeah, I just think like

439 00:37:09.140 ⇒ 00:37:16.819 Uttam Kumaran: part of it. We’re at the point now where me and him are still doing a lot of sales, and we’re doing a lot of leadership where it’s just like we just need to be enabled.

440 00:37:17.140 ⇒ 00:37:17.660 Amber Lin: Yeah.

441 00:37:17.660 ⇒ 00:37:20.239 Uttam Kumaran: A lot of that, I think, is on like leadership enablement.

442 00:37:20.350 ⇒ 00:37:23.599 Uttam Kumaran: and like putting us in just the best place to for

443 00:37:23.860 ⇒ 00:37:26.960 Uttam Kumaran: for us. For like, for example, if you consider our time being worth

444 00:37:27.250 ⇒ 00:37:35.021 Uttam Kumaran: X amount like ours, every is every hour of our day being used with that in mind, you know, like.

445 00:37:35.710 ⇒ 00:37:39.809 Uttam Kumaran: and I think you do. You’ve always done a good job of like thinking that way

446 00:37:39.920 ⇒ 00:37:45.649 Uttam Kumaran: and thinking about leverage and like for me. Personally, I think you’re the one person

447 00:37:45.800 ⇒ 00:37:54.469 Uttam Kumaran: in the company outside of the AI team who’s so invested in using AI that like.

448 00:37:54.820 ⇒ 00:38:02.959 Uttam Kumaran: and like me and Robert use it tragedy for all sorts of stuff. And I think everybody at this level needs to be so bought into AI that it’s like.

449 00:38:03.590 ⇒ 00:38:10.759 Uttam Kumaran: Almost to like a comical level. We’re like using it. Otherwise it’s never everybody’s gonna be in the company’s gonna be a derivative of us.

450 00:38:11.060 ⇒ 00:38:13.190 Amber Lin: And our usage so.

451 00:38:13.430 ⇒ 00:38:18.220 Uttam Kumaran: I’m really even hesitating these days to bring on anybody who, to the company who’s like

452 00:38:18.790 ⇒ 00:38:22.029 Uttam Kumaran: has not even at least tried to use AI for something, because

453 00:38:22.340 ⇒ 00:38:27.369 Uttam Kumaran: so extra, at least like 20 to 50% like boost in productivity.

454 00:38:29.910 ⇒ 00:38:34.819 Amber Lin: No, and I’ve I’ve seen it for the sales go to market team recently.

455 00:38:35.590 ⇒ 00:38:36.170 Amber Lin: Cause

456 00:38:36.380 ⇒ 00:39:01.190 Amber Lin: Ryan is a also very heavy user of AI, and he was able to share a clay Gbt that someone else created. And that was so helpful and essentially today, Mary, I was like, how do I do this? I need some help with that. Go ask the Gpt that Ryan said. Like I got. I’m getting my answers from there. If you ask me. I’m gonna go ask the Gpt, so you should just go ask the Gpt yourself.

457 00:39:01.620 ⇒ 00:39:02.989 Amber Lin: So she did that.

458 00:39:04.620 ⇒ 00:39:06.140 Amber Lin: Well, that was pretty good.

459 00:39:06.140 ⇒ 00:39:11.430 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I mean, I I yeah, I I say the same thing. Did you ask AI, did you ask the person directly?

460 00:39:12.010 ⇒ 00:39:14.760 Uttam Kumaran: Okay. Well, yeah.

461 00:39:15.310 ⇒ 00:39:22.879 Amber Lin: Yeah, yeah, I think I like this type of role. And I do keep reflecting on, okay, where?

462 00:39:23.070 ⇒ 00:39:29.530 Amber Lin: Where is the area that want to go deeper on. And hmm!

463 00:39:31.600 ⇒ 00:39:38.110 Amber Lin: I like thinking about the strategy and like systematically working, having it work.

464 00:39:38.640 ⇒ 00:39:51.799 Amber Lin: I think it’ll take some more time once it gets from the initial planning phase to actual execution. And then I can tell you a bit more about how I feel about doing that right now, thinking about strategy very fun.

465 00:39:51.920 ⇒ 00:39:54.580 Amber Lin: but needs more execution.

466 00:39:57.550 ⇒ 00:39:58.140 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.

467 00:39:58.140 ⇒ 00:40:12.599 Uttam Kumaran: I think I think it’s also helpful to have a 3rd person sort of like judge some of our decisions. But also, it’s really because what the one thing that we that Robert and I have is perspective and influence. But we lack time.

468 00:40:13.090 ⇒ 00:40:13.600 Amber Lin: Hmm.

469 00:40:13.600 ⇒ 00:40:36.900 Uttam Kumaran: Right, and that’s where I think you have influence and time, but maybe lack the like, I would say perspective. But more of like this is the vision right? And everyone has like one of those right. Some people have time, but then they don’t vision. And so I think that’s where we’re in a conundrum because we just don’t have time to execute these, and we also kind of barely even have time to explain what to execute.

470 00:40:37.060 ⇒ 00:40:47.469 Uttam Kumaran: So there’s a middle ground is helping. I also think Hannah Hannah can certainly like I think even you interacting with Hannah, I can tell, is giving her a lot more confidence.

471 00:40:47.880 ⇒ 00:40:53.929 Amber Lin: Yeah, totally. I was talking with her, and I feel like for Hannah. She

472 00:40:55.620 ⇒ 00:41:12.719 Amber Lin: I feel like I kind of put her on a spot. I remember that she doesn’t like to put on the spot to brainstorm. She likes more time to like. Think about it. I could totally tell that in the meeting she was a little bit stuck, but then, when she had time afterwards, or before that, to think about it, she was able to come up with more stuff.

473 00:41:13.070 ⇒ 00:41:24.979 Amber Lin: and she’s also a really great help helper for planning and making sure things get executed like, diligently.

474 00:41:26.620 ⇒ 00:41:27.150 Amber Lin: So

475 00:41:28.640 ⇒ 00:41:38.829 Amber Lin: I was asking her like, What do you want to take on? Because I realized I really cannot. I cannot do all of this. The more I plan to stretch the more stuff that comes up.

476 00:41:38.830 ⇒ 00:41:48.609 Uttam Kumaran: That’s the thing like you’ll read. You’ll read the if you end up reading that consulting book. There’s just so there’s like another few years worth of strategy work to do.

477 00:41:49.130 ⇒ 00:42:02.770 Uttam Kumaran: And so that’s why. But, like I, we are at severe need of basically someone to to take over some of the execution initiatives because it’s never gonna come to the point where me and Rob are gonna spend less than

478 00:42:03.510 ⇒ 00:42:09.859 Uttam Kumaran: 25% of our time on sales. I mean, I think for for the foreseeable future it will be 50%,

479 00:42:10.070 ⇒ 00:42:11.840 Uttam Kumaran: if anything, it will go higher.

480 00:42:11.950 ⇒ 00:42:16.640 Uttam Kumaran: And so that’s where I sort of want us to consider that like.

481 00:42:16.790 ⇒ 00:42:21.519 Uttam Kumaran: that’s the new normal, and like everything else needs to happen, we need to

482 00:42:21.650 ⇒ 00:42:34.870 Uttam Kumaran: find a way to to do it. But I think Anna’s gonna admit. I mean again, you’re you’re also a force multiplier. So I think similar to like when you notice if I’m in the meeting and it sort of goes. Well, I think you’re you’re finding your knack for that.

483 00:42:35.511 ⇒ 00:42:38.280 Uttam Kumaran: So I think it’s really positive.

484 00:42:38.410 ⇒ 00:42:44.430 Uttam Kumaran: you know. I think longer term. It’ll be up to you to think about whether this is enough or you want to stay doing. Pm, but

485 00:42:44.690 ⇒ 00:42:50.369 Uttam Kumaran: I don’t know I don’t. I? I selfishly don’t think that there is another

486 00:42:50.510 ⇒ 00:42:58.110 Uttam Kumaran: like more impactful role than outside of me and Robert than the role you’re playing right now, I think he would probably agree.

487 00:42:58.360 ⇒ 00:43:01.960 Uttam Kumaran: So for me. It’s just like continuing to enable that. And then

488 00:43:02.170 ⇒ 00:43:04.909 Uttam Kumaran: I don’t know. I think you’ll get. You’ll get a wealth of experience.

489 00:43:05.030 ⇒ 00:43:07.430 Uttam Kumaran: you know, for for wherever this takes you.

490 00:43:07.850 ⇒ 00:43:19.860 Amber Lin: Totally, I agree. Let I I just want to keep doing this and see where it takes me. I don’t have any objections on that I’m very excited. I think a question that sort of came up this week as I was

491 00:43:20.180 ⇒ 00:43:24.930 Amber Lin: leading more is, and wanted to get your insight on how you

492 00:43:25.230 ⇒ 00:43:40.349 Amber Lin: like. Here’s a problem. Sometimes I get frustrated when I get a system and people don’t get it. And I know logically that yes, it takes time for people to understand, because it also took me time to understand. But I just get so like in.

493 00:43:40.350 ⇒ 00:43:45.329 Uttam Kumaran: What what is like? Where does the where does the frustration stem from? If you can like.

494 00:43:45.750 ⇒ 00:43:53.780 Amber Lin: But I think ultimately, from the deep internal emotions it’s like, why are you so dumb?

495 00:43:53.780 ⇒ 00:43:56.800 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah. So it’s so stems from like, almost like disappointment.

496 00:43:56.970 ⇒ 00:43:58.000 Amber Lin: Yeah.

497 00:43:58.360 ⇒ 00:44:00.180 Uttam Kumaran: And like, you know, in.

498 00:44:00.180 ⇒ 00:44:05.729 Amber Lin: An effort to explain it when I feel like I’ve done it already, or it’s so straightforward like, why don’t you get it.

499 00:44:06.210 ⇒ 00:44:08.890 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I. And I think part of it is like.

500 00:44:09.190 ⇒ 00:44:13.490 Uttam Kumaran: I mean, part of it is perspective, I guess. Like, how did you feel about the people you worked with.

501 00:44:14.000 ⇒ 00:44:16.100 Uttam Kumaran: No, that’s your last role in your last role.

502 00:44:16.100 ⇒ 00:44:17.730 Amber Lin: Oh, in my last role.

503 00:44:20.410 ⇒ 00:44:25.280 Amber Lin: I was more of an independent contributor, but also it comes to interns like

504 00:44:26.230 ⇒ 00:44:31.319 Amber Lin: I’ve led some interim groups before, but I guess because there was a

505 00:44:31.590 ⇒ 00:44:36.630 Amber Lin: like the hierarchy. They were very attentive to my words, but.

506 00:44:36.630 ⇒ 00:44:37.370 Uttam Kumaran: Oh, okay.

507 00:44:37.370 ⇒ 00:44:42.589 Amber Lin: See them as like. I don’t see myself as the manager is sort of like. Hey? I figured out this

508 00:44:42.820 ⇒ 00:44:50.939 Amber Lin: workflow. It makes sense to me. And then I was like I I thought I explained it already, but apparently it didn’t work.

509 00:44:51.800 ⇒ 00:44:57.510 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah. So then, like, how? What like in? I guess my question more is like, Okay, are you?

510 00:44:57.880 ⇒ 00:45:05.709 Uttam Kumaran: Do you get frustrated? And and what do you try in that moment like when you’re like, hey? I explained this, and either I’m not getting any feedback or.

511 00:45:05.710 ⇒ 00:45:06.600 Amber Lin: Meeting.

512 00:45:06.824 ⇒ 00:45:13.559 Uttam Kumaran: That people are saying? Yes, but I can tell it’s like they don’t really get it, or they’re like asking again, like, What do you? What do you typically try?

513 00:45:16.370 ⇒ 00:45:29.434 Amber Lin: I most of the times I get frustrated, but explain it again like I I feel like I am very willing to help, but I get frustrated when I’m helping. So

514 00:45:30.620 ⇒ 00:45:41.779 Amber Lin: so I I would explain it, maybe in a different way try, maybe visualizing it and also directing them to like. Hey? Can you just ask Hbt.

515 00:45:41.780 ⇒ 00:45:42.560 Uttam Kumaran: Yes.

516 00:45:42.860 ⇒ 00:45:43.280 Amber Lin: But I.

517 00:45:43.280 ⇒ 00:45:43.930 Uttam Kumaran: I mean.

518 00:45:43.930 ⇒ 00:45:55.620 Amber Lin: My only fear is that, hey? This is not gonna get done because a lot of times they’ll say, Hey, so I spent today on discovery. And they’re like, Hey, I found out that discovery didn’t work.

519 00:45:56.070 ⇒ 00:46:01.949 Uttam Kumaran: Yes, yeah. So there’s there’s kind of 2 pieces here, I think. I think one is.

520 00:46:02.420 ⇒ 00:46:08.939 Uttam Kumaran: I think this is I. I felt this, like most of my career, too. In fact, like, since I

521 00:46:09.090 ⇒ 00:46:38.369 Uttam Kumaran: sort of started working, I’ve I’ve basically I completely changed my mind on the fact that, like these companies are actually very innovative, I think. For the most part, there’s a couple of innovators in in every innovative company, and the rest of people are just there to execute their vision. Right? You have some companies where the people at the top are sort of the morons, and the people at the bottom are like the innovators. You also have the opposite right? You have like an asshole where you have like a Steve jobs. And then you have, like everyone around him. Right? You also have some other companies where it’s like.

522 00:46:38.784 ⇒ 00:46:42.195 Uttam Kumaran: I don’t know. I’m trying to think of like a company like

523 00:46:43.400 ⇒ 00:46:45.320 Uttam Kumaran: It’s like, what’s a good one?

524 00:46:45.640 ⇒ 00:46:46.620 Amber Lin: Intel.

525 00:46:46.740 ⇒ 00:46:53.439 Uttam Kumaran: Intel is okay. I’m thinking more about, like, I think a company where there’s like one person that’s like.

526 00:46:53.440 ⇒ 00:46:54.100 Amber Lin: Hmm.

527 00:46:57.610 ⇒ 00:46:59.590 Uttam Kumaran: Trying to think of one company like

528 00:47:01.660 ⇒ 00:47:10.339 Uttam Kumaran: sort of like this company where there’s like one killer feature, or like one killer product in a suite of products like, what’s a good one?

529 00:47:11.120 ⇒ 00:47:38.889 Uttam Kumaran: I’m sort of drawing a blank like, I think one of the things to just basically be be really mindful of is just that, does innovation come from the top? Or is it coming from within? There’s a lot of companies that are just basically managed by like salespeople, and innovation comes here and there. But they don’t like do a good job at like inducing it. I think this is where you sort of have to understand that, hey? I can. You can run this company and basically tell everyone what to do for a long time. But you’ll never get any leverage.

530 00:47:38.980 ⇒ 00:47:48.220 Uttam Kumaran: And so this is where for me, I had always had a hard time in my career, being like trusting anyone to do anything, because their their work was always more mediocre.

531 00:47:49.220 ⇒ 00:47:58.140 Uttam Kumaran: Sorry. I’m just like trying to put my leash on this dog, and he’s relax meatball. He’s a so you basically have like

532 00:47:58.350 ⇒ 00:48:21.830 Uttam Kumaran: you either have. You have leverage through people, or you have leverage through your time. And so sometimes, when I was an individual contributor, I’m like, Okay, I’ll just work harder, right? And I wasn’t really leading people. And then I started to lead people. But even then I was sort of just telling people what to do. I didn’t really care for them to. I didn’t. I didn’t need them to know why they were doing it right now. My whole job is, I actually can only succeed if people know why and how.

533 00:48:21.830 ⇒ 00:48:22.360 Amber Lin: Yeah.

534 00:48:22.360 ⇒ 00:48:26.260 Uttam Kumaran: And then find the internal agency to sort of go above and beyond.

535 00:48:26.730 ⇒ 00:48:33.980 Uttam Kumaran: And so for me. It’s my happiness these days does not stem at all from my personal execution of tasks.

536 00:48:34.540 ⇒ 00:48:39.630 Uttam Kumaran: Fact it by personal execution. Tasks is what I fear, and it’s actually like.

537 00:48:39.630 ⇒ 00:48:39.970 Amber Lin: Oh, wow!

538 00:48:39.970 ⇒ 00:48:52.449 Uttam Kumaran: What sort of like I’m I’m really uninterested in as a whole, and I try to delegate, you know, like my life depends on it so that I can go sell more. But this wasn’t the same. This wasn’t the case. Early in my career, like early in my career, I was.

539 00:48:52.660 ⇒ 00:48:58.487 Uttam Kumaran: I was very, very like, Hey, I’m gonna I’ll take the ball and run with it, and you can instruct me to do that.

540 00:48:59.130 ⇒ 00:49:06.510 Uttam Kumaran: So it kind of depends on the role. Like as a project manager. Your job is to basically like, pour gas on everybody you work with

541 00:49:07.415 ⇒ 00:49:08.180 Uttam Kumaran: and.

542 00:49:08.180 ⇒ 00:49:10.979 Amber Lin: That doesn’t sound like a very good relationship.

543 00:49:10.980 ⇒ 00:49:14.420 Uttam Kumaran: What? No, no gas meaning like you want them to grow.

544 00:49:14.420 ⇒ 00:49:19.139 Uttam Kumaran: Oh, okay, no. Like like they’re on fire. You’re like, you need to just increase the fire. Sorry.

545 00:49:19.140 ⇒ 00:49:19.530 Amber Lin: I guess.

546 00:49:19.530 ⇒ 00:49:24.514 Uttam Kumaran: It’s not like it could be interpreted negatively. It’s a positive like

547 00:49:25.330 ⇒ 00:49:42.679 Uttam Kumaran: like you have all these people, and you’re there to enable them, and as a Pm. For me, I always thought about and I read, you know, I read this book called Inspired by Marty Kagan. It’s a great book. It’s again, one of the best books on basically like product product management. And

548 00:49:43.030 ⇒ 00:49:52.660 Uttam Kumaran: it talked a lot of part of the part of the thing in project management is you’re you’re either. If something goes wrong, you’re the you’re the fault. Something goes right. It’s it’s a credit to the engineers and the team.

549 00:49:52.840 ⇒ 00:50:00.129 Uttam Kumaran: And that’s the sort of mentality you have to have. You have to have a selfish mentality and your your job number one job is for stuff to get out.

550 00:50:00.670 ⇒ 00:50:04.279 Uttam Kumaran: Your your job is not to manage, though, for like

551 00:50:04.450 ⇒ 00:50:10.980 Uttam Kumaran: so you, this is where the line sort of blurs between like enablement and ultimately, like.

552 00:50:24.240 ⇒ 00:50:25.110 Amber Lin: Hello.

553 00:50:25.110 ⇒ 00:50:26.400 Uttam Kumaran: Hey? Sorry. I just cut out.

554 00:50:28.010 ⇒ 00:50:28.600 Amber Lin: Hmm.

555 00:50:29.950 ⇒ 00:50:37.108 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah. So basically, I was just saying, like, you, you wanna you wanna have a line between enablement, but also not like coddling.

556 00:50:37.620 ⇒ 00:50:42.679 Uttam Kumaran: And I don’t think we do a lot of coddling here, I think, for the most part it’s actually like a very, very

557 00:50:44.800 ⇒ 00:50:48.000 Uttam Kumaran: I don’t know. I just think it’s actually if people

558 00:50:48.240 ⇒ 00:50:58.870 Uttam Kumaran: that we tend to be lower on the requirements. But it’s up to you to also like build that file like motivate people, you know. So that’s like true leadership is like, when people work with you to get more energy, they get more motivation.

559 00:50:58.900 ⇒ 00:51:26.209 Uttam Kumaran: You may be. I don’t think the frustration goes away. But ultimately you you turn some of that frustration into like, Hey, you know, this isn’t a company filled with morons, and like it’s like a big Ibm right? These are all like really smart people we work with. So your 1st assumption shouldn’t be. This person’s a moron fuck. This person, like they clearly are so dumb. Right? Some people they do live their life like that. And no matter how smart you are, they’re gonna think that

560 00:51:26.320 ⇒ 00:51:27.990 Uttam Kumaran: you’re Dom, if you don’t get it.

561 00:51:28.860 ⇒ 00:51:35.269 Uttam Kumaran: Your job should should be like, okay, like, why? Why is this person not understanding it? And how could I have communicated it better?

562 00:51:35.400 ⇒ 00:51:42.880 Uttam Kumaran: That’s the flip. That’s the flip way you you end up turning it on yourself where you’re like. Something in the way I communicated didn’t land either.

563 00:51:42.880 ⇒ 00:51:43.269 Amber Lin: This person.

564 00:51:43.270 ⇒ 00:51:50.930 Uttam Kumaran: Doesn’t, doesn’t like. See what I’m saying. I sort of skipped 10 steps. I went too fast. That’s like, usually the problem. It’s actually.

565 00:51:50.930 ⇒ 00:51:51.600 Amber Lin: I see it.

566 00:51:51.600 ⇒ 00:51:57.360 Uttam Kumaran: Typical. You sort of turn it back on yourself. Which, like, how can I improve? How can I have gone better versus like.

567 00:51:57.360 ⇒ 00:51:57.950 Amber Lin: Can you.

568 00:51:58.390 ⇒ 00:52:03.439 Uttam Kumaran: This person’s an idiot like that’s that’s something that’s never gonna change. In fact.

569 00:52:03.830 ⇒ 00:52:07.240 Uttam Kumaran: sad to say, like as the company gets bigger, things will get slower.

570 00:52:07.600 ⇒ 00:52:08.250 Amber Lin: Yeah.

571 00:52:08.250 ⇒ 00:52:10.289 Uttam Kumaran: And we can’t do anything I can’t really like.

572 00:52:10.560 ⇒ 00:52:16.060 Uttam Kumaran: There’s just that’s just inertia. We will always fight that. But that is just like sort of inertia.

573 00:52:16.860 ⇒ 00:52:24.930 Uttam Kumaran: But your 1st thing shouldn’t be. You should try not to let your 1st thing be. This person’s an idiot like. I’m a very skeptical person

574 00:52:25.040 ⇒ 00:52:36.250 Uttam Kumaran: in general, and so my my 1st instinct is to kind of think that way. But I combat it a lot where I sort of. I’m like, maybe I should explain this again, or try to find a way to coach through it, because ultimately

575 00:52:36.460 ⇒ 00:52:40.830 Uttam Kumaran: every team member needs to succeed in order for the company succeed so.

576 00:52:40.830 ⇒ 00:52:41.420 Amber Lin: Hmm.

577 00:52:42.049 ⇒ 00:52:47.780 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I I think we’re. We’re we’re we’re we’re, I would say, more like.

578 00:52:48.150 ⇒ 00:52:58.139 Uttam Kumaran: we’re more motivated than most. But I still think that we’re not like a ruthless like Amazon type company, you know, so we couldn’t. We can’t just be like you’re stupid. You’re gonna leave and

579 00:52:59.090 ⇒ 00:53:17.410 Uttam Kumaran: you get fired. We’re here to coach everyone up, and then where you’ll you may find some satisfaction is over time. You’ll see people try to start to learn from you start to want to work with you more, start to want to like, actually take your advice and and grow. And then that’ll hopefully fill in for the okay. Actually, like, when I do give people feedback.

580 00:53:17.910 ⇒ 00:53:21.189 Uttam Kumaran: it’s actually helping them grow. And that’ll that’ll be validating.

581 00:53:21.530 ⇒ 00:53:25.179 Amber Lin: Cool. And I I guess a similar topic on that is

582 00:53:25.520 ⇒ 00:53:38.620 Amber Lin: a lot of times. I don’t know if my team members are going to their full potential because I like, I don’t wanna micromanage. But like, I don’t have insights into, are they really at their full capacity? Or

583 00:53:38.960 ⇒ 00:53:51.249 Amber Lin: is this just because they didn’t even put the time into it like my skepticism is not that they’re not smart, because all of them have have proved they’re pretty smart but they just need to work different ways, but that

584 00:53:51.640 ⇒ 00:53:53.870 Amber Lin: I don’t know if they’re getting lazy.

585 00:53:54.070 ⇒ 00:53:54.570 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, yeah.

586 00:53:55.105 ⇒ 00:53:55.640 Amber Lin: Boy.

587 00:53:56.160 ⇒ 00:54:03.090 Uttam Kumaran: So this is where this is like 2 things. One. This is where, like, I think you as a Pm actually are very powerful, because you need to prove that

588 00:54:03.290 ⇒ 00:54:07.799 Uttam Kumaran: like that, although you may have a gut instinct, and it may be right.

589 00:54:07.980 ⇒ 00:54:17.469 Uttam Kumaran: I, if I’m the manager of like the AI team and engineering manager. I’m gonna be like, well, show me in a ticket or in like a set of tickets where they slacked

590 00:54:17.670 ⇒ 00:54:32.570 Uttam Kumaran: right? So this is. The point is that show having sprint points like planning things out with due dates, having clear requirements is evidence. It’s either credit or it’s their detriment. If they don’t get it done, and there’s real accountability, right? But we can’t have that conversation.

591 00:54:32.820 ⇒ 00:54:45.729 Uttam Kumaran: I can’t do it on a hunch. We can’t do it on a hunch anymore. I used to do it on hunches, and for the most part the hunches are right like. But what I’m saying is that you need to prove it, meaning like, Hey, I have a hunch. This is my assumption.

592 00:54:45.910 ⇒ 00:54:49.600 Uttam Kumaran: I see it in the data because we typically take on this many tickets this many tickets.

593 00:54:49.600 ⇒ 00:54:49.990 Uttam Kumaran: Good job.

594 00:54:49.990 ⇒ 00:55:13.819 Uttam Kumaran: Heard Xyz excuses perfect. Okay, then I’m like, cool. As for me, if I’m managing, if I’m if like, I’m managing Miguel and Casey, I’ll have a conversation with them, and I’ll ask them for their perspective, or, better yet, all of us will get on a call, and we’ll just look at it. We’ll look at the data, the 3 of us together. Perfect. Right? Then you’ll then you’ll find out, like either the measurements wrong or there’s some misunderstanding, and most often it’s just a misunderstanding.

595 00:55:14.290 ⇒ 00:55:18.330 Uttam Kumaran: You need something. You need this to be looking at the same paper to do that.

596 00:55:18.460 ⇒ 00:55:35.880 Uttam Kumaran: The way this typically goes in companies is someone has an assumption like yours. It then it’s like it then goes like it escalates. Someone, then is like, Hey, I heard you like, you’re slacking your job that person’s like. No, I’ve been doing everything I’ve been asked to, and there’s just like some misunderstanding.

597 00:55:36.110 ⇒ 00:55:44.309 Amber Lin: And then, after someone gets fired or someone sort of left being like, why was I being accused of this like? That’s what we want to avoid. Like we want to avoid the.

598 00:55:44.550 ⇒ 00:55:57.160 Uttam Kumaran: We want. We, may we? You want to take the gut instinct as like an indicator. But you, your your action and your conversation has to be proven with some data, right or something, that both parties can say. This is the truth.

599 00:55:57.370 ⇒ 00:56:01.009 Uttam Kumaran: And then let’s talk about that. You know. That’s how I feel.

600 00:56:01.210 ⇒ 00:56:10.749 Uttam Kumaran: That’s why the one on one templates are. The reason I do. The one on one templates is so that we can all talk about the same thing. So I’m like, take a minute to write, and then we’re gonna discuss that. And.

601 00:56:10.860 ⇒ 00:56:15.619 Amber Lin: If there’s other topics in your mind, you can’t say that we didn’t have opportunity to discuss it, or that.

602 00:56:15.830 ⇒ 00:56:24.729 Uttam Kumaran: We didn’t write all those things down. I didn’t take an action on those, you know, or if I if we truly wrote it down. I didn’t take an action that’s that’s on me, like I’ll admit that you know.

603 00:56:27.400 ⇒ 00:56:29.050 Uttam Kumaran: Do you sort of have like a

604 00:56:29.680 ⇒ 00:56:32.520 Uttam Kumaran: you just sort of build up the case, you know

605 00:56:32.900 ⇒ 00:56:42.260 Uttam Kumaran: you don’t, and you don’t want to do anything where you’re like micromanaging you don’t. You shouldn’t micromanage. But if you’re like, Hey, the health of the project is dependent on this happening.

606 00:56:42.420 ⇒ 00:56:47.060 Uttam Kumaran: you are gonna be judged ultimately as a project gets done. And so if you’re like, Hey.

607 00:56:47.360 ⇒ 00:56:53.080 Uttam Kumaran: currently, we’re not like we’re not gonna accomplish our goals by the timeframe.

608 00:56:53.580 ⇒ 00:57:08.579 Uttam Kumaran: This is the Xyz reason, and one of those reasons is like, I don’t think engineers are working hard enough, and here’s how I can prove that. Then that’s perfect cause. That’s enough information to start a discussion. And the reason you’re on the hook your accountabilities on the project getting done.

609 00:57:08.740 ⇒ 00:57:18.219 Uttam Kumaran: Your accountability is not on having the right engineers. That’s my accountability. Right? So if you’re like, Hey, I don’t have the right engineers or the engineers are slow or like people aren’t listening to me.

610 00:57:18.370 ⇒ 00:57:27.949 Uttam Kumaran: Okay, let’s see it in the data. And then I will. Either people are gonna listen to you or they’re gonna not be the company. But I can’t have that conversation until I see

611 00:57:28.350 ⇒ 00:57:43.279 Uttam Kumaran: until I really like, we prove that. Yeah, you know. And you prove that through like tickets. And that’s my point about like having tickets that anyone can take on is that they’re they’re sort of like they’re not associated with the people. The people execute work.

612 00:57:44.490 ⇒ 00:57:54.290 Uttam Kumaran: There are more people, and the work is sort of agnostic. Your your job is for the work to get done, not to select the right people or not to nurture the right people. Right?

613 00:57:54.410 ⇒ 00:58:06.750 Uttam Kumaran: That’s the difference. It’s a hard thing to understand, because this is where I was like project manager is not. And it’s not a people manager. You’re not there to manage people’s emotions. You’re there to accomplish the priority on time.

614 00:58:07.380 ⇒ 00:58:16.429 Uttam Kumaran: That’s your job in the squad is to make sure that’s happening, that the squad isn’t going left and right. The squad isn’t slowing down without understanding that that’s supposed to be happening

615 00:58:16.750 ⇒ 00:58:18.240 Uttam Kumaran: right like

616 00:58:18.510 ⇒ 00:58:30.670 Uttam Kumaran: and cause cause. Guess what? If it doesn’t happen? Then you’re gonna get blamed if it does happen. Then you live. You live another day. That’s the problem with being a project manager is that it’s it’s like that.

617 00:58:30.670 ⇒ 00:58:33.149 Amber Lin: Versus a project manager.

618 00:58:33.400 ⇒ 00:58:34.060 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.

619 00:58:35.140 ⇒ 00:58:44.910 Uttam Kumaran: So that’s where you should leave the leave the emotions out of it. I would say instead, prove, yeah, like, used go in a linear. And this is why this it’s sort of a nice cycle, because

620 00:58:45.020 ⇒ 00:58:51.649 Uttam Kumaran: for you to prove you have to have good tickets and the tickets have to be scoped. They have to have due dates, otherwise there’s no way you can show that people are slowing down.

621 00:58:51.650 ⇒ 00:58:52.410 Amber Lin: Hmm.

622 00:58:52.410 ⇒ 00:58:58.480 Uttam Kumaran: I’m ideally. Once you have great tickets, shit some stuff doesn’t slow down right bike.

623 00:58:58.600 ⇒ 00:59:06.809 Uttam Kumaran: If that’s the reason why they’re slowing down, that’ll be eliminated. Then we can have a straight conversation with whoever being like, Hey, we took these 4 tickets. None of this happened. What’s good.

624 00:59:07.650 ⇒ 00:59:14.049 Amber Lin: Cool. I had a question of what is your definition between a people manager and project manager.

625 00:59:14.680 ⇒ 00:59:17.914 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, this is something I I feel like, I don’t have like a very clean

626 00:59:18.610 ⇒ 00:59:27.829 Uttam Kumaran: sort of metaphor for. But people manager, your your job is to help people accomplish their goals and succeed at their skill set.

627 00:59:27.970 ⇒ 00:59:34.059 Uttam Kumaran: For example, the the data manager, the data engineering manager, makes sure that everyone who’s a data engineer

628 00:59:34.605 ⇒ 00:59:47.360 Uttam Kumaran: is up to their title level is able to get promoted and grow within their engineering organization. But they’re not there to like. Make sure they get their like

629 00:59:47.670 ⇒ 01:00:16.840 Uttam Kumaran: assigned sprint work done. They’re there to make sure that they can get it done. Your job is to get them assigned. But if they’re not, if they’re assigned the work and not getting it done, then you sort of have a laundry list of reasons you have to ask, why, right? Okay, are you spread too thin? Are you disgruntled with the company? There’s a host of reasons why that maybe that’s just somebody’s fault or the company’s fault. But that’s the thing where you have to have separation responsibilities. The project manager. You should just look at a chess board

630 01:00:17.320 ⇒ 01:00:22.160 Uttam Kumaran: like you don’t care. You just have to move pieces around until you get to the objective.

631 01:00:22.370 ⇒ 01:00:24.960 Uttam Kumaran: But, like you don’t really care, you shouldn’t care who the pieces are.

632 01:00:25.280 ⇒ 01:00:26.480 Uttam Kumaran: Necessarily.

633 01:00:26.690 ⇒ 01:00:31.109 Amber Lin: I think my own. My only thought to that is

634 01:00:31.680 ⇒ 01:00:34.510 Amber Lin: about the relationship with my engineers.

635 01:00:36.870 ⇒ 01:00:39.810 Uttam Kumaran: There’s that doesn’t mean you can’t have a relationship.

636 01:00:39.810 ⇒ 01:00:40.290 Amber Lin: But.

637 01:00:40.290 ⇒ 01:00:44.459 Uttam Kumaran: Your lever isn’t. Your lever isn’t, hey? You’re bad at engineering

638 01:00:45.320 ⇒ 01:00:56.979 Uttam Kumaran: like that shouldn’t be your first, st because that’s up to the engineering manager to determine, and as of now, I know both of them are good at engineering, so my my pushback would be. There’s something else going on.

639 01:00:58.350 ⇒ 01:00:59.419 Uttam Kumaran: And until we

640 01:00:59.850 ⇒ 01:01:05.959 Uttam Kumaran: figure those out, then I can come back to okay. Maybe I was wrong. Maybe they’re good at engineering, but they’re lazy.

641 01:01:06.110 ⇒ 01:01:33.090 Uttam Kumaran: and then I can go act on that and like root that out. But if I go act on that now, and it’s it’s actually the case that they just don’t have good tickets, or that they’re like confused on what to work on. Then we would have made someone on the team. We would have risk, basically them being like, Oh, I can’t believe you think I’m lazy, like I’m gonna leave the company. So it’s not fair to them at all to like, act on that assumption without doing our own diligence right

642 01:01:33.220 ⇒ 01:01:34.300 Uttam Kumaran: cool, awesome.

643 01:01:34.300 ⇒ 01:01:35.090 Amber Lin: Good point.

644 01:01:35.090 ⇒ 01:01:52.580 Uttam Kumaran: So like from from each of the Pm’s. I want to see, okay, how many points are we slotted to get done? How many did we get done? Can I look at who’s taking on work? Let’s look at the let’s look at those tickets. Let’s make sure that they have all this stuff in it. How long did each average ticket take like? What was the throughput of tickets.

645 01:01:53.020 ⇒ 01:01:55.036 Uttam Kumaran: If you if you take a look at that

646 01:01:56.130 ⇒ 01:02:10.955 Uttam Kumaran: oh, I’ll actually I’ll send you another. Doc. It’s actually in the vixel. Actually, I got it outside of Vixel. But from an older vixel employee, basically like it was like how they ran their entire project management function. And basically they?

647 01:02:12.080 ⇒ 01:02:18.870 Uttam Kumaran: They had a whole thing about measuring points and tickets and throughput to down to a science. But.

648 01:02:18.870 ⇒ 01:02:20.200 Amber Lin: Send me that already.

649 01:02:22.110 ⇒ 01:02:23.510 Uttam Kumaran: Maybe.

650 01:02:23.510 ⇒ 01:02:28.310 Amber Lin: It’s like the 2 person team, 3 people team 4 people team at different points.

651 01:02:28.310 ⇒ 01:02:30.919 Uttam Kumaran: Oh, no, no, no, no! That was the sow.

652 01:02:30.920 ⇒ 01:02:31.640 Amber Lin: Hmm.

653 01:02:31.640 ⇒ 01:02:35.359 Uttam Kumaran: This is one that’s like even, it’s like a whole thing about how basically.

654 01:02:35.600 ⇒ 01:02:39.319 Uttam Kumaran: this company ran agile down to like

655 01:02:39.760 ⇒ 01:02:43.710 Uttam Kumaran: everything about how a point was assigned. And like, it’s just like it’s kind of like a lot.

656 01:02:43.830 ⇒ 01:02:53.829 Uttam Kumaran: But basically, my, your job is to say, like, Hey, point is this amount of work, and we got this amount of units of work done. Each person did. Xyz. And we all agree on what a unit of work is.

657 01:02:53.980 ⇒ 01:02:55.720 Uttam Kumaran: And like it’s

658 01:02:56.250 ⇒ 01:03:03.109 Uttam Kumaran: I don’t know. I I think I would. I would rather just be a judge of like, hey, did we get for me? My my feeling is that.

659 01:03:03.680 ⇒ 01:03:15.920 Uttam Kumaran: And this is where we can have a conversation after we identify, like how detailed the tickets need to be. But my feeling is that it’s it’s either due to that or they’re just not good at communicating.

660 01:03:16.050 ⇒ 01:03:21.179 Uttam Kumaran: I don’t. I don’t necessarily think it’s because of their engineering aptitude, but then we all need to.

661 01:03:21.180 ⇒ 01:03:21.510 Amber Lin: Right.

662 01:03:21.510 ⇒ 01:03:40.780 Uttam Kumaran: But the way we solve it is not me saying, Hey, you guys need to communicate more. I want them to be able to admit that they’re not communicating enough, and then for them to propose, hey, I think we can probably remedy this by just communicating more. If I go top down and say that they’re not gonna adopt it. It’s it’s just gonna be hard.

663 01:03:42.820 ⇒ 01:03:43.460 Amber Lin: I think.

664 01:03:43.620 ⇒ 01:03:51.790 Amber Lin: yeah, I think what what I was thinking was more for the go to market project, but today for the AI team. We had a really good retro, and

665 01:03:52.520 ⇒ 01:03:54.760 Amber Lin: it it came up naturally of

666 01:03:54.920 ⇒ 01:04:02.989 Amber Lin: we. We said, Okay, what went well this week? What made us go so much faster. And a big point is communication. And then

667 01:04:03.310 ⇒ 01:04:15.399 Amber Lin: a step after that is like, Okay, what actually made up this good communication, like what actually happened. And I made each person sort of write, write it down and explain their stickies, and that was pretty good, and I think.

668 01:04:15.400 ⇒ 01:04:15.810 Uttam Kumaran: Okay.

669 01:04:15.810 ⇒ 01:04:18.910 Amber Lin: It was very like it came from them, and.

670 01:04:18.910 ⇒ 01:04:19.500 Uttam Kumaran: Okay, got it?

671 01:04:19.500 ⇒ 01:04:21.190 Amber Lin: Internal lifestyle, a lot more.

672 01:04:21.190 ⇒ 01:04:23.080 Uttam Kumaran: That’s running a great retro right?

673 01:04:23.080 ⇒ 01:04:23.860 Amber Lin: Hmm.

674 01:04:23.860 ⇒ 01:04:49.100 Uttam Kumaran: I I if you’re talking about the the go to market option. The problem with you know, Marianne and Ryan mostly is that I don’t. They don’t do a lot of. Only now do we? Are we doing more collaborative work? But they don’t collaborate with a lot of people compared to Luke. So you may find that they’re less attuned to like the communication schedules that you’re used to on client projects, right? Because we really demand, like almost every day or multiple times a day.

675 01:04:49.210 ⇒ 01:04:50.843 Uttam Kumaran: But for

676 01:04:52.110 ⇒ 01:05:17.709 Uttam Kumaran: I don’t know, for for internal stuff it’s sort of just like it rolls. So that may be a possibility, you know, but ultimately I think you should just have an open conversation with people about what they what they think their communication expectations are, you should also give your perspective and say, Hey, my ass is on the line. If this doesn’t happen and I just wanna be able to. I just wanna I need to be able to communicate with leadership that these things are moving forward.

677 01:05:18.042 ⇒ 01:05:24.530 Uttam Kumaran: And so I really like, it’s actually a requirement for you guys to communicate, and that’s what you can do at that point.

678 01:05:24.680 ⇒ 01:05:27.649 Uttam Kumaran: If it doesn’t work, then you have, then you can escalate like.

679 01:05:27.650 ⇒ 01:05:28.160 Amber Lin: Hmm.

680 01:05:28.160 ⇒ 01:05:29.189 Uttam Kumaran: That’s the thing.

681 01:05:29.600 ⇒ 01:05:56.940 Amber Lin: Yeah, I don’t think anything’s at that point. I just wanted to bring it up early because I noticed that tendency in me and I wanted to getting your perspective. Okay, how do I think about it when this emotion comes up for myself? Because if I, if it keeps happening, and occasionally, if I don’t catch it, then that’s gonna ruin a relationship. Yes, and that agitation comes out because it’s gonna come out as a bit of like not aggression, but at least passive aggression.

682 01:05:56.940 ⇒ 01:05:57.320 Uttam Kumaran: Yes.

683 01:05:57.320 ⇒ 01:06:00.459 Amber Lin: Going to come out some way if it’s not digested.

684 01:06:00.460 ⇒ 01:06:02.439 Uttam Kumaran: I think it’s just healthy to

685 01:06:02.590 ⇒ 01:06:06.980 Uttam Kumaran: stray from the assumption that people are dumb by.

686 01:06:07.190 ⇒ 01:06:12.800 Uttam Kumaran: I mean for me, it’s been healthy, because that’s my base assumption for a long time.

687 01:06:13.260 ⇒ 01:06:18.409 Uttam Kumaran: Instead. Now, I usually think, and just people have not been equipped well enough.

688 01:06:18.940 ⇒ 01:06:22.959 Uttam Kumaran: Or they have baggage from a past sort of role that

689 01:06:23.350 ⇒ 01:06:25.580 Uttam Kumaran: has has caused them to think that

690 01:06:25.810 ⇒ 01:06:41.789 Uttam Kumaran: this is the way they’re handling. This is appropriate, you know. I I think there’s I think there’s there’s mostly a lot of that versus people are like nobody here in the company I would describe as like maliciously incompetent, or like, actually basically like failing

691 01:06:41.980 ⇒ 01:06:43.480 Uttam Kumaran: because they want to.

692 01:06:44.040 ⇒ 01:06:46.680 Amber Lin: We have had that part time.

693 01:06:47.000 ⇒ 01:06:53.979 Uttam Kumaran: I’ve had that yeah, for sure, for sure. But like, I don’t think anyone’s like that. So your base assumptions should be more about like.

694 01:06:54.120 ⇒ 01:06:54.680 Amber Lin: Yeah.

695 01:06:55.067 ⇒ 01:06:56.229 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah. You know.

696 01:06:56.230 ⇒ 01:07:07.849 Amber Lin: I get it so, assuming that it’s good natured, assuming that it’s just a different way that things need to be done. It’s about the methods, not the people themselves. In nature.

697 01:07:07.850 ⇒ 01:07:08.500 Uttam Kumaran: That’s correct.

698 01:07:08.500 ⇒ 01:07:11.290 Amber Lin: And they’re able to do that as long as I

699 01:07:11.630 ⇒ 01:07:16.799 Amber Lin: as long as I explain, or as long as I take the steps to do that. So that’s really really helpful.

700 01:07:17.340 ⇒ 01:07:28.640 Uttam Kumaran: That’s correct, and and it’ll be hard. These are. Last thing I’ll say is, it’s all people. So, no matter what you read in a book about like emotional intelligence, and like about how to treat like, how to run a manufacturing

701 01:07:28.710 ⇒ 01:07:50.880 Uttam Kumaran: style. Agile team like it’s it becomes hard because we are human beings, and everything’s emotional. And I don’t. Actually, I don’t really want people to stray from conflict because there are healthy. There’s healthy conflict, right conflict. We’ve assumed as to be negative, which drives a lot of companies basically to become like to not innovate because they never talk about

702 01:07:50.980 ⇒ 01:07:53.440 Uttam Kumaran: the right or wrong thing to do. They never debate.

703 01:07:53.780 ⇒ 01:08:02.459 Uttam Kumaran: they just sort of like succumb. And then one person’s voice dictates the whole thing. So I don’t. I’m not here to say that conflict like there’s no conflict

704 01:08:02.750 ⇒ 01:08:12.729 Uttam Kumaran: right? So like I don’t. I don’t care if you go to the meeting. And and you’re like, Hey, guys, our communication isn’t good enough. We need to improve someone’s like, no, I think it is good enough. And you guys have a discussion.

705 01:08:12.880 ⇒ 01:08:24.169 Uttam Kumaran: What I what I don’t want to have is like resentment about like people. And like this person is this way. And that’s the reason why Xyz is happening. Often not the case. Sometimes it is.

706 01:08:24.290 ⇒ 01:08:31.499 Uttam Kumaran: but it’s often it’s often more of either a miscommunication or a misalignment in expectations.

707 01:08:31.609 ⇒ 01:08:39.090 Uttam Kumaran: This is every company, every company has this problem. It either either people just like stay silent and avoid the conflict.

708 01:08:39.220 ⇒ 01:08:44.789 Uttam Kumaran: or people speak up and they get it resolved. It’s the people that like sort of fester on it, and then you’re like.

709 01:08:45.109 ⇒ 01:08:51.930 Uttam Kumaran: or you’re not enabled by your company to talk about it out loud. So you’re like, talk about it with your friends and the company like in the shadows.

710 01:08:52.120 ⇒ 01:08:55.369 Uttam Kumaran: That’s just sort of what leads to this. These issues.

711 01:08:55.920 ⇒ 01:08:59.380 Amber Lin: Yeah, I I think immediately from that part of

712 01:08:59.490 ⇒ 01:09:08.349 Amber Lin: enabling them to talk about it, even how our company sets tone that they are able to talk about it. I think it’s worthy to have

713 01:09:08.700 ⇒ 01:09:12.609 Amber Lin: some sort of outlet for that type of stuff that’s

714 01:09:13.300 ⇒ 01:09:15.150 Amber Lin: That’s not accountable.

715 01:09:15.529 ⇒ 01:09:16.089 Uttam Kumaran: Yes.

716 01:09:16.090 ⇒ 01:09:17.860 Amber Lin: What they say. Some.

717 01:09:18.020 ⇒ 01:09:21.390 Amber Lin: Now, I’m just brainstorming on how that could happen.

718 01:09:21.390 ⇒ 01:09:24.579 Uttam Kumaran: But that’s the one on ones. Right? That’s why we do one on ones, because

719 01:09:24.710 ⇒ 01:09:29.540 Uttam Kumaran: it’s a release valve for things that could be building up right.

720 01:09:29.540 ⇒ 01:09:30.120 Amber Lin: Hmm.

721 01:09:30.120 ⇒ 01:09:37.380 Uttam Kumaran: And it’s a safe space. It’s where managers are supposed to be. Hey, how’s it going like, how are you feeling? And this is something that will happen to everybody.

722 01:09:37.600 ⇒ 01:09:47.179 Uttam Kumaran: And so we have to just have mechanisms to always guard against the buildup of resentment over time, and like having open open dialogues like this. But

723 01:09:47.910 ⇒ 01:09:55.579 Uttam Kumaran: it’s not easy like these are. These are commonly things that you know, especially for the our folks abroad, like they’re used to like.

724 01:09:56.200 ⇒ 01:10:05.259 Uttam Kumaran: it’s like just not having yeah. And and just being like very shy about these things when in fact, I’m like you, being shy is a detriment to our success.

725 01:10:05.640 ⇒ 01:10:16.040 Uttam Kumaran: And they’re like, Oh, my gosh, no! Before I was trying, because nobody wanted to hear my opinion. I’m like, that’s the opposite, like we actually need to. In order for us to succeed. We need to hear your opinion.

726 01:10:16.080 ⇒ 01:10:16.650 Amber Lin: Yes.

727 01:10:16.650 ⇒ 01:10:17.370 Uttam Kumaran: Like.

728 01:10:17.560 ⇒ 01:10:18.120 Amber Lin: Yeah, that.

729 01:10:18.120 ⇒ 01:10:18.790 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.

730 01:10:18.790 ⇒ 01:10:21.769 Amber Lin: Into the structure, one on ones, with at least like

731 01:10:22.020 ⇒ 01:10:27.539 Amber Lin: every other month, to remember to talk about what you’re unhappy about, essentially.

732 01:10:27.540 ⇒ 01:10:35.279 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, that’s why those I asked. People like, Tell me something that’s going wrong. Tell me how like we can. We can resolve that like, how can we?

733 01:10:35.470 ⇒ 01:10:52.229 Uttam Kumaran: How can we like get through this, you know, like no one’s? No one’s hired in order to like have a bad time here, so it’s always some. But this is what I tell people. It’s like every day at the company, someone’s not having a good day, and it’s it’s really hard to realize that one day one day it’ll be you and like.

734 01:10:52.370 ⇒ 01:10:56.049 Uttam Kumaran: how do we? How does the company have guardrails for that right outlets

735 01:10:56.420 ⇒ 01:11:02.580 Uttam Kumaran: to like sort of like handle things, these types of problems. That’s it’s hard, right? Like.

736 01:11:03.370 ⇒ 01:11:12.113 Uttam Kumaran: you know, for me, we may sell a bunch. But then someone’s like, Hey, I just don’t feel like I’m working on anything valuable. And I’m like, Oh, my, gosh! How is this like happening right now?

737 01:11:14.300 ⇒ 01:11:17.870 Amber Lin: Great. This is very helpful, alright.

738 01:11:17.870 ⇒ 01:11:18.220 Uttam Kumaran: I know.

739 01:11:18.220 ⇒ 01:11:22.779 Amber Lin: Question. But it doesn’t have to be today. It’s more of like a people management problem.

740 01:11:22.780 ⇒ 01:11:26.530 Uttam Kumaran: No, that’s fine. I’m just like just in the garden, hanging out.

741 01:11:26.930 ⇒ 01:11:30.250 Amber Lin: Cool. I heard bird songs outside. I was, so

742 01:11:30.515 ⇒ 01:11:33.610 Amber Lin: I just took the dog for a walk, and then oh.

743 01:11:33.610 ⇒ 01:11:37.040 Uttam Kumaran: Needed to plant this little mint plant. So I’m putting in the crowd.

744 01:11:37.780 ⇒ 01:11:39.040 Amber Lin: That’s so nice.

745 01:11:40.360 ⇒ 01:11:41.210 Uttam Kumaran: Moved on.

746 01:11:41.210 ⇒ 01:11:42.100 Uttam Kumaran: Justin.

747 01:11:42.260 ⇒ 01:11:45.580 Amber Lin: I would I would love to at least like for a month.

748 01:11:45.580 ⇒ 01:11:47.840 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, you should know.

749 01:11:48.190 ⇒ 01:11:51.190 Uttam Kumaran: Well, when you, when you come to come, see the ABC. Folks.

750 01:11:52.225 ⇒ 01:11:53.950 Uttam Kumaran: It’ll be nice, you can.

751 01:11:54.300 ⇒ 01:11:56.500 Uttam Kumaran: You can get a look around and think about it.

752 01:11:56.500 ⇒ 01:11:59.060 Amber Lin: Yeah, totally.

753 01:11:59.868 ⇒ 01:12:14.919 Amber Lin: How do you motivate people just to give me like a thought teaser cause I get very motivated just talking to you like. We every every single week, and I know I’m very motivated by the work that I do. But like.

754 01:12:16.100 ⇒ 01:12:21.989 Amber Lin: how do I? How do I motivate people on the team for them to achieve more like, how do I enable them.

755 01:12:22.830 ⇒ 01:12:27.029 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, this is something that I’m even like learning how to structure. Cause I never, really.

756 01:12:27.670 ⇒ 01:12:36.230 Uttam Kumaran: I never really thought about motivating others, because I never. I led like my team, but for the most part my ability to motivate was not

757 01:12:36.460 ⇒ 01:12:38.740 Uttam Kumaran: financial, was not really like.

758 01:12:38.880 ⇒ 01:12:53.610 Uttam Kumaran: It was mostly like, Hey you do this project, you get better career. It’s you can get more like you get a credibility. And so part of it is like, actually, you want to find you. This is like part of the science that we need to figure out is like.

759 01:12:53.730 ⇒ 01:13:11.019 Uttam Kumaran: like, basically like what motivates people. You know. Some people are motivated by money. Some people are motivated by status. Some people are motivated by you know, like the work they do, or they’re they’re motivated by having more free time.

760 01:13:11.020 ⇒ 01:13:11.430 Amber Lin: Okay.

761 01:13:11.760 ⇒ 01:13:18.379 Uttam Kumaran: Or they’re motivated by working with a certain person or working on a certain challenge, like, I think everybody’s different.

762 01:13:19.980 ⇒ 01:13:21.700 Uttam Kumaran: Like my motivation.

763 01:13:21.930 ⇒ 01:13:27.930 Uttam Kumaran: for my career has always been just like working on with cooler people and working on building my career up.

764 01:13:28.050 ⇒ 01:13:44.329 Uttam Kumaran: You know, I’ve always been very career motivated. And so for me. If you look at the my decision making, it will match that where I’ve taken things that don’t pay so well, but that help my resume or help me sort of like get access to like different types of work. And so

765 01:13:44.890 ⇒ 01:13:52.950 Uttam Kumaran: I think, part part of like our goal setting exercise is gonna be. And this is where, like the Myers, Briggs, or whatever we’ll need to learn what motivates everybody.

766 01:13:53.383 ⇒ 01:14:08.570 Uttam Kumaran: And that’s that’s gonna help you dictate how to talk to people. Right? That’s why everybody what their goals are, because I know that if I go to someone with a certain reward and it doesn’t fit their like what they wanted. Then they’re not gonna be happy. And so.

767 01:14:08.670 ⇒ 01:14:17.539 Amber Lin: Example of, say, some people that I’ve worked with maybe say, either Luke Miguel or Casey like, can you pick one that give me and give me an example.

768 01:14:17.900 ⇒ 01:14:18.826 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, like,

769 01:14:19.600 ⇒ 01:14:27.229 Uttam Kumaran: like, here’s a good example. I mean a good example of like, for Casey is Casey’s really early in his career. And so.

770 01:14:28.080 ⇒ 01:14:42.519 Uttam Kumaran: you know, I could have easily been like cool Casey, you’re you’re crushing it on the AI team. I want you to come help out with AI sales. That’s that’s gonna be like pulling teeth for him. He doesn’t want to really be like customer facing it may be better for his career, but

771 01:14:42.630 ⇒ 01:14:58.229 Uttam Kumaran: it’s like he wants to just go deeper and learn more engineering topics. You know. He’s also really interested in being at a company for not being like at a company that’s like working on something kind of like small. He wants to work at a company that’s working on cool stuff. He’s interested in the technology

772 01:14:58.656 ⇒ 01:15:20.310 Uttam Kumaran: and so for me, I know I can motivate him by giving him hard challenges, you know, by by giving giving him access to tools and budget that he may not had, and giving him structure right, giving him a a great Pm. Like you, who can help give him the structure about what to work on, and when, and sort of letting him have 8 h of time to do that.

773 01:15:20.470 ⇒ 01:15:24.080 Uttam Kumaran: That that’s like. That’s how you keep a smart engineer like him happy.

774 01:15:24.190 ⇒ 01:15:27.850 Uttam Kumaran: You don’t put them in a ton of meetings. You don’t give them a lot of like

775 01:15:28.370 ⇒ 01:15:35.820 Uttam Kumaran: like customer facing stuff. You don’t change a lot of things that fast. You let them sort of toil and work on tough problems, and so.

776 01:15:35.820 ⇒ 01:15:36.330 Amber Lin: Hmm.

777 01:15:36.330 ⇒ 01:15:38.569 Uttam Kumaran: That’s how I think about it, you know.

778 01:15:39.140 ⇒ 01:15:48.009 Uttam Kumaran: And for me again, like over time. We’ll need to pay people more, so money will come into it. But also people want to work with smart people. They don’t want to be coddled. They don’t wanna

779 01:15:48.130 ⇒ 01:15:48.960 Uttam Kumaran: like.

780 01:15:49.420 ⇒ 01:15:55.079 Uttam Kumaran: you know, a people want to work with a people like, if you’re good at what you do, you don’t want to work with shitty people.

781 01:15:55.497 ⇒ 01:16:14.530 Uttam Kumaran: And you will feel this. You’ll work with people. You’re like dude. This person’s just like not cutting it. And then you have to decision. You’re like, can I get this person to the point where they are an a person? Or do we need to split? And like, that’s that’s the decisions we make, you know. And with everybody on the team we’ve seen potential, and that’s where we try to enable. But

782 01:16:15.460 ⇒ 01:16:23.819 Uttam Kumaran: like, I don’t know, like the rousing speeches and stuff like it’s not really my like flavor. Because I I’ve been part of a lot of companies where you had like

783 01:16:24.110 ⇒ 01:16:26.740 Uttam Kumaran: sort of an egomaniac at the top. Who would

784 01:16:26.960 ⇒ 01:16:30.860 Uttam Kumaran: give like, Hey, we’re going to be the next biggest company ever blah blah, and

785 01:16:31.000 ⇒ 01:16:32.949 Uttam Kumaran: none of those ever panned out, and

786 01:16:33.480 ⇒ 01:16:36.080 Uttam Kumaran: I feel like it’s mostly ego talking, so I don’t tend to.

787 01:16:36.080 ⇒ 01:16:38.540 Amber Lin: Counts as a rousing speech.

788 01:16:39.932 ⇒ 01:16:45.279 Uttam Kumaran: I don’t know like I was. I was at wework, and the guy told us we’re going to put a we work on Mars.

789 01:16:45.800 ⇒ 01:16:46.650 Amber Lin: Huh!

790 01:16:47.040 ⇒ 01:16:49.019 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah. And then everybody clapped.

791 01:16:51.110 ⇒ 01:16:54.290 Amber Lin: That just sounds like such a big company.

792 01:16:54.290 ⇒ 01:17:00.709 Uttam Kumaran: He met Elon, and then he told him that, like he wants to put a we work on Mars, and then everybody in the room clapped.

793 01:17:00.990 ⇒ 01:17:02.100 Amber Lin: Wow!

794 01:17:02.270 ⇒ 01:17:07.800 Amber Lin: You know what we call this in Chinese is like, you’re drawing a cake.

795 01:17:09.710 ⇒ 01:17:11.379 Uttam Kumaran: So, instead of like making a cake.

796 01:17:11.680 ⇒ 01:17:13.200 Amber Lin: Yeah, you’re just drawing it.

797 01:17:13.380 ⇒ 01:17:13.990 Uttam Kumaran: Muted.

798 01:17:14.340 ⇒ 01:17:16.859 Amber Lin: But in the prettiest way, and then

799 01:17:17.040 ⇒ 01:17:18.849 Amber Lin: and then people go after it.

800 01:17:19.530 ⇒ 01:17:20.950 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, exactly.

801 01:17:21.100 ⇒ 01:17:21.710 Amber Lin: Oops!

802 01:17:22.140 ⇒ 01:17:40.409 Uttam Kumaran: But also sometimes like, look, we have to motivate people in different ways, like, unfortunately, like at Facebook, they motivate people by being like you can make a million dollars here, but also, like you can’t go do this anywhere else. So they sort of like pay by money. Some places like spacex. They motivated because it’s like you’re working on the next

803 01:17:40.530 ⇒ 01:17:42.010 Uttam Kumaran: space platform.

804 01:17:42.410 ⇒ 01:17:42.790 Amber Lin: Hmm.

805 01:17:42.790 ⇒ 01:17:43.990 Uttam Kumaran: You know.

806 01:17:45.280 ⇒ 01:18:05.200 Uttam Kumaran: I it’s hard for me to sit here and be like you’re working on the future of technology at Brainforge. I try to motivate people. But what motivates me, which is being able to work multiple sort of like roles get to work with smart data. People get to work in a very like non confrontational sort of like engineering.

807 01:18:05.400 ⇒ 01:18:09.370 Uttam Kumaran: technical, heavy organization. Get to work on AI at like Peak.

808 01:18:10.380 ⇒ 01:18:14.469 Uttam Kumaran: So I don’t know. That’s like sort of what I think about when I motivate folks, you know. But.

809 01:18:16.880 ⇒ 01:18:31.349 Amber Lin: That’s a good insight. It’s like a the very nice, thought Starter. And it got I you suggested using AI for the personality Tester and I got I was showering before I slept last night. I just couldn’t stop thinking about it.

810 01:18:32.510 ⇒ 01:18:41.849 Amber Lin: Oh, gosh! And I think this is gonna be very, very interesting. I was like, Okay, I’m gonna generate. I have all these lists of questions that from different personality tests generate.

811 01:18:42.160 ⇒ 01:18:44.729 Uttam Kumaran: You should have Miguel create a little ui for it.

812 01:18:44.730 ⇒ 01:18:54.620 Amber Lin: I know it might just be a custom gpt like it doesn’t really need a Ui, it’s just all the context that comes out. And then context on how to grade, based on the answers.

813 01:18:55.090 ⇒ 01:19:02.470 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, you could maybe just make a little. Well, you could make a little slack bot, too, that like sits in slack, and people respond to it.

814 01:19:03.180 ⇒ 01:19:05.060 Amber Lin: Yeah, you’re pretty cool.

815 01:19:05.060 ⇒ 01:19:05.820 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.

816 01:19:06.080 ⇒ 01:19:13.808 Amber Lin: I was thinking about it. It’s it’s really nice. And I was like, Oh, wait! I really don’t communicate optimally to my girlfriend, either.

817 01:19:14.130 ⇒ 01:19:16.360 Uttam Kumaran: No, I mean, this is where? Like, yeah, I mean, I’m

818 01:19:16.470 ⇒ 01:19:28.849 Uttam Kumaran: or a flawed in a bunch of different ways. You know, they can’t fix everything. But like work is something where I think I mean, you kind of hope that some of the things you you learn at work about motivation sort of like.

819 01:19:29.390 ⇒ 01:19:36.309 Uttam Kumaran: I don’t know. Just help. You become a better person. And a lot of work is just treating people fairly and not like judging. And

820 01:19:37.320 ⇒ 01:19:41.500 Uttam Kumaran: yeah, that seems like good, just like things for life, anyways.

821 01:19:43.410 ⇒ 01:19:48.060 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah. And but work is also tough, because it’s all money. So it’s all money driven, you know. So.

822 01:19:48.870 ⇒ 01:19:49.850 Uttam Kumaran: It’s difficult.

823 01:19:50.270 ⇒ 01:19:58.799 Amber Lin: Yeah, any questions you have for me that that was like my dump of questions at you. I’ve got most of them answered. I’m very happy.

824 01:19:59.570 ⇒ 01:20:05.020 Uttam Kumaran: Any questions. Yeah, I think just like, I think it would be interesting to

825 01:20:05.160 ⇒ 01:20:08.119 Uttam Kumaran: what you think end up thinking about for this intern program.

826 01:20:10.990 ⇒ 01:20:20.700 Uttam Kumaran: And then, yeah, I think, like I would. I’m really interested in like, however deep you want to go into this strategy stuff, you know, entirely. I think

827 01:20:20.820 ⇒ 01:20:23.890 Uttam Kumaran: there’s a world of of opportunity.

828 01:20:25.220 ⇒ 01:20:33.079 Uttam Kumaran: so I think there’s also a lot of people in my life that I’m working with that run other consultancies, who I certainly can connect you with their like

829 01:20:33.420 ⇒ 01:20:38.460 Uttam Kumaran: chief strategy, person, or whatever, or even with them, directly.

830 01:20:38.947 ⇒ 01:20:42.979 Uttam Kumaran: Like Vishnu from Pixel is like a very, very good person on this subject.

831 01:20:42.980 ⇒ 01:20:48.390 Amber Lin: I saw like every time you send a screenshot. I was like, Wow, like she really.

832 01:20:48.390 ⇒ 01:20:51.330 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, she’s like, she’s really, really talented.

833 01:20:51.728 ⇒ 01:21:02.719 Uttam Kumaran: So in case you want to talk to her like, I, I would like to talk to her also. So in case we want to like brainstorm, some really good questions and do a discussion, I’m I know she would be.

834 01:21:03.090 ⇒ 01:21:04.609 Amber Lin: Yeah, I’ll play.

835 01:21:05.030 ⇒ 01:21:14.149 Amber Lin: I’m working currently on strategy. I like, there’s so a few big gaps that I want to fill, and I’ll sync with you, and then we can start asking for feedback.

836 01:21:14.670 ⇒ 01:21:15.220 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.

837 01:21:15.220 ⇒ 01:21:17.969 Amber Lin: Running iterations and tests in the company.

838 01:21:18.180 ⇒ 01:21:42.959 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah. And then the only other thing is, yeah. So we we’re planning on, you know, trying to extend an offer to Akash here soon. But he sort of made the decision to just like his. I think I will a tree. Things are a little getting a little bit, Dicey. So he made the decision. Just to like try to push it back. So I think we may reevaluate him, joining the company like sometime later in the fall, so

839 01:21:43.470 ⇒ 01:21:43.940 Uttam Kumaran: no.

840 01:21:43.940 ⇒ 01:21:50.620 Amber Lin: Okay. So Akash kind of joined us because he was trying to gain more leverage at Willow Tree. Is that what happened.

841 01:21:50.620 ⇒ 01:21:56.110 Uttam Kumaran: No, no, no, he joined us to actually join us. We just didn’t have

842 01:21:56.712 ⇒ 01:22:03.579 Uttam Kumaran: we just didn’t have the budget right now to bring on 2 folks and so

843 01:22:03.890 ⇒ 01:22:16.339 Uttam Kumaran: we we actually want. He wanted him to come to lead a lot of the stuff on the pm, side. But the you know it just it’s not working out where we can give it to him immediately.

844 01:22:16.741 ⇒ 01:22:21.510 Uttam Kumaran: And we basically were wanted to just take a little bit more time. But for now he’s like, Hey.

845 01:22:21.820 ⇒ 01:22:35.299 Uttam Kumaran: you know his. His, a lot of his reasoning was just around like, Hey, I’m he’s a single, you know, income owner for his family. And he’s like, I just want to be somewhere where you know, I can sort of trust that this is gonna grow. And like, I’m gonna be okay. So

846 01:22:36.310 ⇒ 01:22:48.030 Uttam Kumaran: that’s tough to hear for us. But I think right now as of now, I think it’s mainly gonna be you on the Pm. Side. I think we’re really heavily considering Jacob as well. But I can’t make any moves on people until

847 01:22:49.650 ⇒ 01:22:52.090 Uttam Kumaran: like sales sort of gets higher. So

848 01:22:52.480 ⇒ 01:22:57.551 Uttam Kumaran: that’s like our number one goal is like, continue on matter. More, continue on this

849 01:22:58.130 ⇒ 01:23:05.309 Uttam Kumaran: on off the record. I think I’m gonna basically try to close one more by Monday or Tuesday.

850 01:23:05.460 ⇒ 01:23:07.169 Amber Lin: And and then.

851 01:23:07.500 ⇒ 01:23:11.460 Uttam Kumaran: The the last thing I sent is I sent one for this company called Forward.

852 01:23:11.560 ⇒ 01:23:16.910 Uttam Kumaran: They’re also something I’m pretty confident we can close by like Wednesday, and they’re pure clay.

853 01:23:17.260 ⇒ 01:23:18.350 Uttam Kumaran: So

854 01:23:18.930 ⇒ 01:23:23.810 Uttam Kumaran: yeah, we just need to close like another 3 or 4 of these before I can shore up enough budget. But

855 01:23:23.920 ⇒ 01:23:30.680 Uttam Kumaran: even at that point I’m sort of like part of what I talked to Robert about. It was like, maybe it’s a blessing in disguise like

856 01:23:30.860 ⇒ 01:23:34.970 Uttam Kumaran: I told him that, hey? Maybe we find a way to just do more with AI and.

857 01:23:35.360 ⇒ 01:23:39.570 Amber Lin: Like, we start saving money for the company, like, maybe we just yeah.

858 01:23:39.570 ⇒ 01:23:42.100 Uttam Kumaran: Don’t think about hiring for a little bit, and

859 01:23:44.180 ⇒ 01:23:46.717 Uttam Kumaran: continuing with what we have, you know.

860 01:23:47.080 ⇒ 01:24:05.219 Amber Lin: There’s definitely areas of work that can be stressed. There’s probably talent in people we already have that can take on certain work. We can shuffle essentially, shuffle their scope responsibilities. And then we can maybe find that they fit more in certain places

861 01:24:06.040 ⇒ 01:24:12.949 Amber Lin: and cause essentially what we’re essentially, it’s only Javi and Eden. That doesn’t have a Pm. Right now.

862 01:24:13.550 ⇒ 01:24:19.300 Amber Lin: Yeah, exactly. But he was. He was really, really strong for that. So it’s kind of a bummer like, I really wish that.

863 01:24:19.610 ⇒ 01:24:27.980 Uttam Kumaran: It, it would have worked out. But we’ll see, maybe again in the future. But yeah, ideally, like, we need a Pm, basically covering those 2.

864 01:24:27.980 ⇒ 01:24:28.300 Amber Lin: Hmm.

865 01:24:28.710 ⇒ 01:24:29.120 Uttam Kumaran: Because

866 01:24:29.518 ⇒ 01:24:42.500 Uttam Kumaran: Robert’s time is is basically going there. But if we close a few more deals, I think we can. We can afford to bring on Jacob, and he’ll be in New York. So that’s the sort of the next decision for us to make.

867 01:24:42.650 ⇒ 01:24:46.620 Uttam Kumaran: But I’m really just like I don’t know. I think we have a solid crew.

868 01:24:46.740 ⇒ 01:24:51.010 Uttam Kumaran: Click. We have a lot of time available from people in capacity, so

869 01:24:51.170 ⇒ 01:24:53.019 Uttam Kumaran: I kind of like, don’t want to hire.

870 01:24:53.230 ⇒ 01:24:58.779 Uttam Kumaran: I mean, he’s on the execution side. Jacob is so. But I I just wanna see how much we can avoid

871 01:24:59.630 ⇒ 01:25:12.949 Uttam Kumaran: hiring, you know. And that way I can. We can actually set like promotion cycles for people. And we can. I can close out the healthcare and like, just like, give out bonuses and stuff like that, you know.

872 01:25:13.360 ⇒ 01:25:35.669 Amber Lin: Yeah, I mean, if we’re already thinking about the promotion, I think this is something we should involve the whole company about thinking of, like just straight out. Tell them, hey, we’re considering about promotions. It’s gonna be possible. If you help us fill these gaps like, can you fill these gaps? Or can you find innovative ways to help this whole company fill those gaps? And if you do like, naturally, the money is going to go to you.

873 01:25:36.230 ⇒ 01:25:41.120 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I guess I’m curious, like how you think that discussion would work. I mean, I feel like, that’s

874 01:25:41.290 ⇒ 01:25:43.879 Uttam Kumaran: that’s like a very, very candid discussion. But.

875 01:25:43.880 ⇒ 01:26:11.619 Amber Lin: Yeah, very candid discussions. I like, I don’t I? I sometimes share too much. But for me today of having that open positions in the company essentially, is to get people to think outside of their current roles, because I do believe, like Kyle, so good at documentation, he might not be the greatest engineer, but he is going to be really good at organizing, thinking about.

876 01:26:11.620 ⇒ 01:26:12.020 Uttam Kumaran: Correct.

877 01:26:12.020 ⇒ 01:26:14.769 Amber Lin: Talking about the most foundational things like

878 01:26:14.940 ⇒ 01:26:19.550 Amber Lin: he could help with strategy, like if he knows if he knows this stuff.

879 01:26:19.660 ⇒ 01:26:25.410 Amber Lin: or if he knows about like other stuff like he’s really good from the root cause.

880 01:26:25.410 ⇒ 01:26:28.669 Uttam Kumaran: Well, that’s where it’s like, I sort of want to figure out like what he wants to do, and

881 01:26:28.920 ⇒ 01:26:32.529 Uttam Kumaran: how, if it matches with what we need from the company. Right? But like.

882 01:26:32.690 ⇒ 01:26:35.790 Uttam Kumaran: I agree with you, maybe it is like a conversation where, like, Hey.

883 01:26:36.470 ⇒ 01:26:42.470 Uttam Kumaran: we have, we have like a need for a Pm. We don’t. We don’t want to spend more budget doing that.

884 01:26:42.580 ⇒ 01:26:51.070 Uttam Kumaran: And here are a couple of options. Either we can do that or I can. If we’re able to handle it without that, then we can do bonus for people like I don’t know. Maybe that is.

885 01:26:51.070 ⇒ 01:26:52.270 Amber Lin: Yeah, so there’s my.

886 01:26:52.270 ⇒ 01:27:05.500 Uttam Kumaran: Do part of it with AI, yeah. So I would be interested in that, like, maybe Robert would be receptive to that. Where, like, we? We all sort of pull together and think about. Hey? It’s like, how can we handle this with our like current crew of people?

887 01:27:05.500 ⇒ 01:27:06.150 Amber Lin: Yeah.

888 01:27:06.472 ⇒ 01:27:08.410 Uttam Kumaran: And sort of avoid another hire.

889 01:27:08.810 ⇒ 01:27:15.780 Amber Lin: Bond as a team as well like today by running that meeting and having those games. I really feel like

890 01:27:15.980 ⇒ 01:27:32.630 Amber Lin: it’s a stronger bond being built and having people lead those meetings on their own, and having people think about engagement for the company to think about how to optimize these different systems. That’s where I really like the data work, the data platform work that you’re making them do. It’s

891 01:27:32.810 ⇒ 01:27:34.480 Amber Lin: ownership of the company because.

892 01:27:34.480 ⇒ 01:27:35.010 Uttam Kumaran: Yes.

893 01:27:35.010 ⇒ 01:27:38.590 Amber Lin: Small company. It’s very easy to feel like you can own it like.

894 01:27:38.590 ⇒ 01:27:43.810 Uttam Kumaran: No, and that’s it is everyone’s company like, I want that to be feel very serious because

895 01:27:43.940 ⇒ 01:27:46.169 Uttam Kumaran: I can’t do it. We can’t do it alone.

896 01:27:46.320 ⇒ 01:27:50.570 Uttam Kumaran: and I want everyone to get rewarded for us like doing it with less people

897 01:27:50.690 ⇒ 01:27:58.319 Uttam Kumaran: like it’s a key Kpi of ours to like maximize revenue per employee, and there’s only there’s a numerator and denominator right like.

898 01:27:58.320 ⇒ 01:28:17.300 Amber Lin: I think that’s very straightforward, and that people will be very receptive, because essentially we have this budget to spend to do these tasks, and if they help doing it, they help do it, or find ways to use AI to help do it. It’s their contribution, and like that, money will just go through them like.

899 01:28:17.300 ⇒ 01:28:21.950 Uttam Kumaran: I agree. So this is where, like, I don’t know. Maybe we should consider doing something next week where we’re like.

900 01:28:22.680 ⇒ 01:28:27.619 Uttam Kumaran: I’m I’m happy to share these like sort of jams we’re in where it’s like, Hey, like we.

901 01:28:28.040 ⇒ 01:28:36.390 Uttam Kumaran: I think we have a lot of engineering talent on the bench. So I’m not super concerned with engineering. I think we do, are we? Are we are. We do need another Pm.

902 01:28:36.570 ⇒ 01:28:40.300 Uttam Kumaran: like, what can we do here, you know, like.

903 01:28:40.300 ⇒ 01:28:40.740 Amber Lin: Right.

904 01:28:40.740 ⇒ 01:28:41.530 Uttam Kumaran: What point should.

905 01:28:41.530 ⇒ 01:28:53.709 Amber Lin: And also has a lot and has more time. It seems she I was talking to her, and she was like, Yeah, I was asking her, do you like have 20 h, 40 h? She just says, I don’t have time that like I don’t have that much tasks.

906 01:28:53.710 ⇒ 01:28:54.670 Uttam Kumaran: For Annie.

907 01:28:54.900 ⇒ 01:28:55.940 Amber Lin: Marianne.

908 01:28:55.940 ⇒ 01:29:03.699 Uttam Kumaran: For Marianne. Yeah, but for Marianne exactly. She usually does like 20 to 30 h. But she’s also like, I’m not going to hire another person operations.

909 01:29:03.820 ⇒ 01:29:07.030 Uttam Kumaran: So her life, her life, is gonna get busier as like.

910 01:29:07.430 ⇒ 01:29:13.239 Uttam Kumaran: We started, for example, on, on, like a lot of the strategy execution stuff. You can utilize her time.

911 01:29:13.480 ⇒ 01:29:14.080 Amber Lin: Hmm.

912 01:29:14.220 ⇒ 01:29:15.200 Uttam Kumaran: Which is like.

913 01:29:15.200 ⇒ 01:29:15.580 Amber Lin: And.

914 01:29:15.580 ⇒ 01:29:21.450 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, you know, like handling everything on around operating or internal data and stuff. She’s just gonna handle all of that.

915 01:29:21.600 ⇒ 01:29:25.109 Uttam Kumaran: And she already handles all the new contract new employee stuff. So.

916 01:29:25.450 ⇒ 01:29:26.290 Amber Lin: Hmm.

917 01:29:28.880 ⇒ 01:29:34.489 Uttam Kumaran: Think might be the greatest 2 Pm. Or have the has the ability to.

918 01:29:34.620 ⇒ 01:29:36.320 Amber Lin: Rise to a Pm.

919 01:29:40.290 ⇒ 01:29:43.920 Uttam Kumaran: I don’t know. It’s hard, because, like I don’t necessarily.

920 01:29:44.520 ⇒ 01:29:47.409 Uttam Kumaran: I mean, maybe Kyle can do it if he wants to.

921 01:29:48.340 ⇒ 01:29:50.030 Amber Lin: Don’t know if he wants to, though.

922 01:29:50.710 ⇒ 01:29:53.720 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah. So I like, I don’t know if everyone is like

923 01:29:54.050 ⇒ 01:29:57.490 Uttam Kumaran: super interested in it versus like me just telling them.

924 01:29:57.490 ⇒ 01:29:58.479 Amber Lin: Yeah, it. It is.

925 01:29:58.480 ⇒ 01:29:58.990 Uttam Kumaran: Do this.

926 01:29:58.990 ⇒ 01:30:03.000 Amber Lin: The personality, because one of the questions that came up is, Do you like

927 01:30:03.390 ⇒ 01:30:16.669 Amber Lin: focus work, or do you like a lot of different things, and I know I like a lot of different things. So if I have to do focus work, I get bored. I get interested to figuring out how it works. And then I was like, I don’t want to do it anymore.

928 01:30:16.920 ⇒ 01:30:18.430 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah. Yeah. So that’s

929 01:30:18.540 ⇒ 01:30:24.469 Uttam Kumaran: it’s hard for people like, I’m I’m sort of the same way now where I can do one thing, but has to be very, very challenging.

930 01:30:24.470 ⇒ 01:30:24.980 Amber Lin: Right.

931 01:30:24.980 ⇒ 01:30:27.140 Uttam Kumaran: To do a hundred like pretty easy things.

932 01:30:27.900 ⇒ 01:30:34.350 Uttam Kumaran: So I don’t know. Maybe we maybe we put it up to the company, for, like, Hey, this is the thing we’re in. We can either hire. But then we sort of can’t.

933 01:30:34.750 ⇒ 01:30:35.610 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I mean.

934 01:30:35.610 ⇒ 01:30:36.779 Amber Lin: Don’t you? We only.

935 01:30:36.780 ⇒ 01:30:38.550 Uttam Kumaran: Can’t do raises or stuff.

936 01:30:39.520 ⇒ 01:30:48.279 Uttam Kumaran: I don’t know. But this is where it’s like, I’m not sure if that like causes people to like freak out and lose trust in the business like you never know, like what people are thinking.

937 01:30:48.280 ⇒ 01:30:54.009 Amber Lin: Like experiment with it, one on ones first, st like test the waters. See how they feel.

938 01:30:54.480 ⇒ 01:30:57.297 Uttam Kumaran: Yes, check what Robert says. Robert’s Roberts,

939 01:30:57.930 ⇒ 01:31:05.479 Uttam Kumaran: like Eq. On this is usually like a little bit better, because I’m I’m generally kind of like you. I just sort of I over share. And I’m like

940 01:31:05.710 ⇒ 01:31:09.460 Uttam Kumaran: this. Is it like this? Is the truth? And I think he may.

941 01:31:09.630 ⇒ 01:31:12.109 Uttam Kumaran: He may have a little bit more like.

942 01:31:12.410 ⇒ 01:31:14.720 Uttam Kumaran: Hey, we should do it this way, like I don’t know.

943 01:31:14.720 ⇒ 01:31:17.050 Amber Lin: Okay, okay, well, we should run it through him first.st

944 01:31:17.050 ⇒ 01:31:17.910 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, yeah.

945 01:31:17.910 ⇒ 01:31:19.240 Amber Lin: Okay, sounds good.

946 01:31:20.730 ⇒ 01:31:22.450 Amber Lin: I’ll summarize and send it to you.

947 01:31:22.933 ⇒ 01:31:23.900 Uttam Kumaran: Okay. Okay.

948 01:31:24.280 ⇒ 01:31:25.040 Amber Lin: Okay.

949 01:31:25.350 ⇒ 01:31:26.090 Uttam Kumaran: Right.

950 01:31:26.090 ⇒ 01:31:27.790 Uttam Kumaran: Enjoy your garden.

951 01:31:27.790 ⇒ 01:31:29.800 Uttam Kumaran: Thank you so much. Have a great weekend.

952 01:31:29.800 ⇒ 01:31:30.759 Amber Lin: Yeah, you too.

953 01:31:30.760 ⇒ 01:31:32.250 Uttam Kumaran: Okay bye, bye.