Meeting Title: Mickey <> BF Date: 2025-03-17 Meeting participants: Michele Altomare, Hannah Wang, Uttam
WEBVTT
1 00:01:13.150 ⇒ 00:01:15.419 Michele Altomare: Impressions on different channels and whatnot.
2 00:01:15.890 ⇒ 00:01:21.849 Michele Altomare: The storage callers like they’re trying to make social media posts about
3 00:01:22.320 ⇒ 00:01:28.330 Michele Altomare: like moving and storage, which is already pretty boring, but the difference.
4 00:01:28.570 ⇒ 00:01:33.310 Michele Altomare: and I remember something that they tested. And there was another business similar to it. I might be mixing up the 2,
5 00:01:33.720 ⇒ 00:01:39.280 Michele Altomare: but it was like they scrapped all the Kpis that we’re not
6 00:01:39.390 ⇒ 00:01:42.439 Michele Altomare: their main focus, which I guess is your version of the Mql.
7 00:01:42.560 ⇒ 00:01:46.860 Michele Altomare: And then they just put one person to be.
8 00:01:47.210 ⇒ 00:01:50.412 Michele Altomare: It was like customer support, and almost
9 00:01:51.230 ⇒ 00:01:59.590 Michele Altomare: like hospitality, to get really, really clear on the people that were signing up for their service, which is like again, white glove, moving and storage.
10 00:02:00.070 ⇒ 00:02:05.010 Michele Altomare: to figure out what it would take for them to become like a referral magnet.
11 00:02:05.120 ⇒ 00:02:08.999 Michele Altomare: or if there was one specific piece of content
12 00:02:09.220 ⇒ 00:02:12.859 Michele Altomare: that they did engage with, which wasn’t often the case, but sometimes it was
13 00:02:13.450 ⇒ 00:02:16.370 Michele Altomare: to figure out what it was in that content that
14 00:02:16.830 ⇒ 00:02:20.339 Michele Altomare: got them to pull the trigger. But to be really specific, like not just
15 00:02:20.720 ⇒ 00:02:24.130 Michele Altomare: when you have a post purchase survey, which is like, Oh, how did you hear about us? And it’s like.
16 00:02:24.640 ⇒ 00:02:30.059 Michele Altomare: you know, add, it’s like something very, very specific.
17 00:02:30.770 ⇒ 00:02:33.520 Uttam: But I guess this is like, put yourself in my shoes.
18 00:02:33.670 ⇒ 00:02:48.469 Uttam: All I’m hearing is solutions like, I’m still not hearing that like this is a problem like I don’t. I don’t care. I told this to Ryan. I don’t care what. If we measure any kpis I don’t measure. I don’t care if we measure all the Kpis I want to hit the goal.
19 00:02:50.000 ⇒ 00:02:52.200 Uttam: So what I’m asking is like
20 00:02:52.980 ⇒ 00:02:57.650 Uttam: again, we’re working on webinars. We’re working on new designs like
21 00:02:58.070 ⇒ 00:03:13.049 Uttam: again. And I I can answer part of this question myself, but I’m posing it, and like, take me to be someone who has no idea. Take me to almost be like an external client here, if I was like, that’s all great. That sounds like it’s what we should be doing. But how can. I know that
22 00:03:13.170 ⇒ 00:03:22.099 Uttam: it’s gonna work because we’ve done content for 6 months? The website looks great.
23 00:03:22.420 ⇒ 00:03:28.589 Uttam: I post here and there still, not still like it’s not. We’re not getting any Mql. Through this side
24 00:03:29.190 ⇒ 00:03:38.139 Michele Altomare: But the Mq. That are coming in is somebody asking them and understanding in the onboarding really clearly what made them become an Mql. Like what
25 00:03:38.140 ⇒ 00:03:44.309 Uttam: We don’t have. We only have 8 clients, and I, I can tell you none of them have come through any of our
26 00:03:44.510 ⇒ 00:03:46.100 Uttam: marketing or content.
27 00:03:46.620 ⇒ 00:03:47.300 Michele Altomare: Right.
28 00:03:47.780 ⇒ 00:03:51.570 Uttam: And and we haven’t had a single booking on the site
29 00:03:51.930 ⇒ 00:03:54.299 Uttam: we have. We’ve had one that was 6 months ago.
30 00:04:00.660 ⇒ 00:04:03.660 Uttam: So that’s what I’m saying, like, I don’t want to keep like
31 00:04:03.840 ⇒ 00:04:09.570 Uttam: every day I’m I’m sort of like, Stop, I’m getting closer to saying like, we’re gonna stop everything until
32 00:04:09.710 ⇒ 00:04:13.579 Uttam: we have a clear path, right? And that’s why this document is so important to me. Because
33 00:04:13.900 ⇒ 00:04:19.509 Uttam: we talk about every week. It’s still not clear to me what bets we’re taking, and how this ladders up to the Mql.
34 00:04:22.740 ⇒ 00:04:24.059 Michele Altomare: Yeah, that makes sense
35 00:04:24.920 ⇒ 00:04:40.749 Uttam: It’s a very easy problem to understand, like, the problem is so easy like it’s it’s so easy to grasp. But it’s hard, because but this is where like if I go and set, if I go and sort of set the standards and do everything I’m not like. I’m not actively working on marketing stuff every day.
36 00:04:41.530 ⇒ 00:04:47.040 Uttam: So I’m not gonna be able to affect those like. All I can do is try to set a reasonable goal
37 00:04:47.400 ⇒ 00:04:54.960 Uttam: and try to equip with like, hey, we have all these tools. We have the website. We have webinars, we have whatever. But I still want to know, like.
38 00:04:55.950 ⇒ 00:04:57.959 Uttam: what is the laddering up like?
39 00:04:58.690 ⇒ 00:05:03.889 Uttam: How many impressions do we need to get? And then what’s the expected conversion rate? And how do those get to
40 00:05:04.000 ⇒ 00:05:09.910 Uttam: the the engagements, and how many of those go from Linkedin to the site? And then how many of that goes from the site to that thing?
41 00:05:10.100 ⇒ 00:05:13.370 Uttam: That’s not. That’s not clear to me like it’s not in front of me.
42 00:05:13.600 ⇒ 00:05:20.019 Michele Altomare: But I think the one thing there is if you’re talking about like, okay, looking at click through and conversion, and all of these
43 00:05:22.100 ⇒ 00:05:25.539 Michele Altomare: forms of measurement that usually get
44 00:05:26.170 ⇒ 00:05:36.619 Michele Altomare: cleared up by large numbers. It’s like, if you said, you guys have 8 clients at the moment one person booked a call on the website. If that’s the lowest part of the funnel, what is the next?
45 00:05:37.090 ⇒ 00:05:42.209 Michele Altomare: Like the slight like? If the funnel is an upside down pyramid right. What is the next level above it?
46 00:05:43.340 ⇒ 00:05:46.019 Michele Altomare: That with very high confidence, you know.
47 00:05:46.230 ⇒ 00:05:54.300 Michele Altomare: would have been the step? Or was the step that a client took to learn more, and how they heard about you like, is there? What’s the way to figure that out, you know?
48 00:05:54.510 ⇒ 00:05:59.560 Michele Altomare: Because if you said, yeah, half of them were word of mouth. But then
49 00:05:59.820 ⇒ 00:06:02.490 Michele Altomare: of the remaining 4, 2 or 3 of them
50 00:06:02.950 ⇒ 00:06:06.999 Michele Altomare: had mentioned to you that oh, they read your newsletter. Then it’s like. Okay.
51 00:06:07.480 ⇒ 00:06:10.690 Michele Altomare: the only kpis that matter exist within the newsletter.
52 00:06:11.010 ⇒ 00:06:15.689 Michele Altomare: But is that something that you and Brain Forge know? You see what I mean? I don’t know if that
53 00:06:15.690 ⇒ 00:06:19.479 Uttam: Yeah, but but we’re not dealing with a hundred 1,000 views like
54 00:06:19.590 ⇒ 00:06:26.320 Uttam: the the site maybe gets a few 1,000 views. But I guess what I’m saying is that, like every week, I’m I’m just asking like
55 00:06:26.670 ⇒ 00:06:32.430 Uttam: for that calculation, and it’s it’s not getting clear to me. So like, I’m kind of close to being like
56 00:06:33.190 ⇒ 00:06:37.160 Uttam: we’re going to stop everything on design until the plan is super clear.
57 00:06:37.490 ⇒ 00:06:42.539 Uttam: cause I can’t like. I can’t. I can’t. I can’t spend more time managing.
58 00:06:42.930 ⇒ 00:06:46.699 Uttam: And I just I don’t know whether we’re gonna hit it. I still don’t know.
59 00:06:47.350 ⇒ 00:06:56.929 Uttam: I know we’re getting closer to what I wanted, which is like we needed the assets for sales. But apart from closing that out, it’s not clear what actions we can take every day
60 00:06:58.350 ⇒ 00:06:59.759 Uttam: to get to
61 00:06:59.960 ⇒ 00:07:07.230 Uttam: the Mql. Number. So I guess, like my question for you, Mickey is like, What do? What do we need to do there as a team like
62 00:07:09.240 ⇒ 00:07:16.450 Uttam: I don’t know like I mean, I like, this is what I’m saying. I know what I want, which is like. I want to see every single one of those steps.
63 00:07:16.670 ⇒ 00:07:29.319 Uttam: and I want to see how the stuff we’re working on is is hitting one of those steps. But I don’t know. It’s like unclear to me that because I can’t spend time doing that. I don’t have time to to execute on that right now.
64 00:07:29.730 ⇒ 00:07:34.610 Michele Altomare: Yeah, well, you said, okay. So for design, there’s
65 00:07:35.690 ⇒ 00:07:39.629 Michele Altomare: the one thing they have to fulfill which is currently being fulfilled. And it sounds like
66 00:07:40.710 ⇒ 00:07:47.209 Michele Altomare: semi successfully, if not successfully, is sales, assets, or or assets for the sales team is that
67 00:07:47.210 ⇒ 00:07:48.570 Uttam: Yeah, yeah.
68 00:07:48.570 ⇒ 00:07:52.740 Michele Altomare: So that’s like one thing that’s at the minimum is working
69 00:07:52.740 ⇒ 00:07:53.500 Uttam: Yes.
70 00:07:54.060 ⇒ 00:08:01.069 Michele Altomare: So keep that. Hannah was saying that, okay, like, currently, you guys moved because I was looking how?
71 00:08:01.930 ⇒ 00:08:17.729 Michele Altomare: And I think it sounded like these were posts that were written in combination from Ryan, and then chat something else blog posts. So that would that count as something that you were measuring as saying, Okay, these are the tangibles
72 00:08:17.870 ⇒ 00:08:21.089 Michele Altomare: that are produced and measured from design.
73 00:08:21.540 ⇒ 00:08:27.750 Uttam: But there’s no measurement right like I don’t. I don’t get a I don’t get a sense of that. Anything’s being measured right now.
74 00:08:29.060 ⇒ 00:08:29.940 Uttam: like
75 00:08:30.270 ⇒ 00:08:37.830 Uttam: right like this is what I’m so part of the issue is that. And I mean, I’m gonna probably be direct with Ryan is that
76 00:08:38.190 ⇒ 00:08:44.480 Uttam: it’s been 3 weeks since I’m asking him to measure Kpis and tell them to me. And and it’s not happening.
77 00:08:44.590 ⇒ 00:08:52.789 Uttam: So like my my thing is, gonna be so I’m gonna say, stop everything and spend the next 2 days figuring out how to measure this
78 00:08:53.560 ⇒ 00:08:58.510 Uttam: before we do anything else like on the blog or anything
79 00:08:59.060 ⇒ 00:09:00.729 Michele Altomare: Well, I also feel like just
80 00:09:01.410 ⇒ 00:09:06.560 Michele Altomare: equally bluntly at something at this size, where you’re getting like
81 00:09:06.920 ⇒ 00:09:10.199 Michele Altomare: on certain posts, single digit engagements.
82 00:09:10.990 ⇒ 00:09:14.990 Michele Altomare: or different. Inter. I mean, you’re getting hits on the website, which is good.
83 00:09:15.540 ⇒ 00:09:22.149 Michele Altomare: But and I talked about this a bit with Hannah, it’s like when it comes to Kpis somebody when you’re looking at so many of them.
84 00:09:22.480 ⇒ 00:09:25.849 Michele Altomare: a case can be made for any Kpi
85 00:09:25.850 ⇒ 00:09:37.809 Uttam: Dude. There’s not even that. Many like it’s just there’s 4. It’s impressions. It’s impressions on the I don’t even care about the post. To be honest, I only care people in order for someone to become an Mql.
86 00:09:37.950 ⇒ 00:09:40.990 Uttam: They have to either hit me directly on Linkedin.
87 00:09:41.130 ⇒ 00:09:43.020 Uttam: or they have to sign up on the site.
88 00:09:43.210 ⇒ 00:09:45.990 Uttam: That’s those are the only 2 numbers that matter here
89 00:09:47.670 ⇒ 00:09:51.579 Michele Altomare: And you’re not getting a a read on like, Okay, Linkedin.
90 00:09:51.580 ⇒ 00:09:53.429 Uttam: 0. Well, the read is 0
91 00:09:54.620 ⇒ 00:09:58.010 Michele Altomare: The last 3 months to read on Linkedin has been 0. The amount of message
92 00:09:58.010 ⇒ 00:10:03.970 Uttam: Nobody has. Nobody has seen a piece of content, and then directly hit me up to become a client.
93 00:10:04.230 ⇒ 00:10:07.190 Uttam: None of the clients that we’ve gotten have been through our content.
94 00:10:10.000 ⇒ 00:10:14.579 Uttam: I don’t want to say it’s not wasn’t worth anything, because it definitely builds our presence.
95 00:10:14.950 ⇒ 00:10:21.320 Uttam: But like I attribute the closed like 5% of that to the to marketing
96 00:10:22.360 ⇒ 00:10:30.530 Uttam: like if they if if I get a call and I cause it’s a buddy of friends, someone, and then they Google, us real quick. And they see we’re legit.
97 00:10:30.800 ⇒ 00:10:32.840 Uttam: I think that’s still valid. But like.
98 00:10:33.700 ⇒ 00:10:38.890 Uttam: that’s 5%. And none of the incremental work goes to attack that. So this is what I’m saying is like.
99 00:10:39.870 ⇒ 00:10:45.230 Uttam: if you’re like, I I guess, like it’s it’s still. It’s still so abstract to me like what?
100 00:10:45.400 ⇒ 00:10:47.850 Uttam: Why, we’re spending 40 HA week
101 00:10:48.800 ⇒ 00:10:52.140 Uttam: and still not seeing results like on marketing.
102 00:10:52.740 ⇒ 00:11:03.039 Uttam: The design design piece I get like. But this is even like for for me, as like the product owner like, how can I say that the redesigning the blog is gonna help
103 00:11:03.310 ⇒ 00:11:09.539 Uttam: drive Mq. Else right? Like, I don’t have any data to prove one way or another.
104 00:11:10.180 ⇒ 00:11:10.880 Michele Altomare: Yeah.
105 00:11:11.400 ⇒ 00:11:13.529 Michele Altomare: And from there I could see even
106 00:11:13.530 ⇒ 00:11:18.829 Uttam: And to be to to give you even the highest version. I’m doing this across all teams right like for me to staff
107 00:11:19.070 ⇒ 00:11:25.600 Uttam: someone on a client. I need to know that money’s coming in. So then I can staff it, and then we’re going to get a return
108 00:11:25.930 ⇒ 00:11:35.810 Uttam: right. And I’m doing this on across every team. Everybody as like the person that defends the company budget. I need to know that our time is going to stuff that’s going to get Roi.
109 00:11:36.360 ⇒ 00:11:50.570 Uttam: I think there’s a base like you don’t need to measure like, why, a website needs to exist right? Like I don’t. I’m not trying to be so specific here. But even for me to say cool, then, if the next piece of thing the design needs to work on is the blog redesign.
110 00:11:51.210 ⇒ 00:11:54.369 Uttam: Can someone measure how that’s going to impact
111 00:11:54.850 ⇒ 00:12:00.989 Uttam: anything right? Like, if someone came to me and was like, cool right now we get this many.
112 00:12:01.220 ⇒ 00:12:03.260 Uttam: we get this many views on the blog.
113 00:12:03.780 ⇒ 00:12:12.260 Uttam: Out of that, this percentage ends up going to the landing page to book a thing. We want that to go up 50%. So we’re going to redesign.
114 00:12:13.270 ⇒ 00:12:14.789 Uttam: Okay, I can buy that.
115 00:12:14.940 ⇒ 00:12:15.909 Uttam: That’s a story
116 00:12:15.910 ⇒ 00:12:19.349 Michele Altomare: Stage, which I know you agree. We agree there. That’s like a whole nother
117 00:12:20.250 ⇒ 00:12:23.099 Michele Altomare: where brain forge isn’t at, that’s clear.
118 00:12:27.880 ⇒ 00:12:28.970 Michele Altomare: From
119 00:12:36.640 ⇒ 00:12:45.629 Michele Altomare: because I could also see an this is clear, for, like any design team, I feel like you see it all the time. Where, in absence of knowing what the clearest
120 00:12:46.320 ⇒ 00:12:47.910 Michele Altomare: marketing
121 00:12:49.860 ⇒ 00:12:57.399 Michele Altomare: asset is. So there’s like the sales assets. But the marketing asset that then goes out. And you can tell us, like, Okay, at least, this is a repetition that went out into the world
122 00:12:58.350 ⇒ 00:13:04.196 Michele Altomare: when that’s not clear. It’s like, that’s when designers kind of start creating.
123 00:13:06.630 ⇒ 00:13:12.450 Michele Altomare: I don’t know what the word is like meaning, or things to fill their time with. Yeah, there’s always infinite
124 00:13:12.980 ⇒ 00:13:18.610 Uttam: No, there’s always infinite redesigns. That’s what I’m saying like. And I like, we’re gonna get into.
125 00:13:18.730 ⇒ 00:13:22.390 Uttam: This is what happens at with marketing teams at technical companies.
126 00:13:22.890 ⇒ 00:13:31.790 Uttam: Right? It’s because the technical people they they run or over rely on measurement. And then they’re like nothing nice or like there’s no room for like magic.
127 00:13:32.230 ⇒ 00:13:36.510 Uttam: We have plenty of room for magic, like I feel like we’re not measuring at all
128 00:13:36.700 ⇒ 00:13:45.250 Uttam: like I haven’t. I haven’t pressed the scale at all on like, hey will X result in y.
129 00:13:46.830 ⇒ 00:13:51.779 Uttam: you know. But I need to right. And but this is something that like I could own.
130 00:13:52.460 ⇒ 00:14:01.469 Uttam: if I have to own I will. But like I would much rather this come from the team to be like, Hey, we we think that Xyz work is gonna impact
131 00:14:01.660 ⇒ 00:14:04.970 Uttam: ABC, goals, right? Like.
132 00:14:07.530 ⇒ 00:14:15.859 Michele Altomare: So then what could those X inputs be? If one of the X Inputs is okay, these are going to be blog posts that come from. But then you need some blog posts
133 00:14:17.240 ⇒ 00:14:22.340 Michele Altomare: or some piece of content to not come from Utam, but it also doesn’t come from
134 00:14:22.470 ⇒ 00:14:27.330 Michele Altomare: AI. If you don’t like what that looks like, which I agree. I think just
135 00:14:27.590 ⇒ 00:14:32.880 Michele Altomare: objectively, it’s gotten played out. I think maybe when Chat TV 1st came out it was making it
136 00:14:32.880 ⇒ 00:14:41.610 Uttam: But even but even beyond that, like, I don’t care how it gets done. If I’m the blocker like. I know that me posting on Linkedin is a huge blocker.
137 00:14:42.930 ⇒ 00:14:46.869 Uttam: But, like, what am I gonna start posting? And is everything gonna happen
138 00:14:48.630 ⇒ 00:14:50.000 Michele Altomare: Yeah, yeah.
139 00:14:50.240 ⇒ 00:14:56.049 Uttam: It’s that’s why I just need some translation of like how to prioritize the work on the team.
140 00:14:56.820 ⇒ 00:15:00.330 Uttam: because we’re only a couple of people, and I don’t. I can’t hire another person
141 00:15:01.070 ⇒ 00:15:07.860 Michele Altomare: But is that then the job of the Pm. Because Hannah’s design? So who? Who decides? Okay, the marketing push
142 00:15:08.030 ⇒ 00:15:12.960 Michele Altomare: for all the assets that are going to be made are going to be for this campaign for the next 2 weeks is.
143 00:15:13.130 ⇒ 00:15:15.720 Michele Altomare: and then it’s a thing like who says that
144 00:15:16.260 ⇒ 00:15:23.970 Uttam: I guess, but here, but like I’m happy to fill the backlog with tasks. But like measuring the impact, I feel like anyone on the team should be able to do.
145 00:15:24.510 ⇒ 00:15:27.930 Uttam: or at least being able to say, like, Hey, this is what we think
146 00:15:29.440 ⇒ 00:15:31.610 Uttam: doing. X thing is gonna affect.
147 00:15:31.810 ⇒ 00:15:32.560 Uttam: Why does that
148 00:15:32.823 ⇒ 00:15:38.610 Michele Altomare: That what you guys have been doing already. It’s just the data, or like the traffic, isn’t there to fill the pipes
149 00:15:39.470 ⇒ 00:15:43.200 Uttam: I don’t know, dude, that’s what I’m saying. I don’t know. I’m not spending any time like
150 00:15:43.510 ⇒ 00:15:50.280 Uttam: I just need to like, or I just need a framework to think about how to prioritize work for this team
151 00:15:52.230 ⇒ 00:15:58.019 Uttam: like on your team like, how do you guys take on new work like, what do you look at for Roi
152 00:16:01.480 ⇒ 00:16:05.450 Michele Altomare: The 1st thing that we’ve had to remove, and this was like since.
153 00:16:06.110 ⇒ 00:16:11.759 Michele Altomare: Here, let me screen share. This is just like one quick example, but it’s the closest one that I can think of.
154 00:16:11.960 ⇒ 00:16:18.040 Michele Altomare: That is at least somewhat related to you. Share something with us.
155 00:16:20.510 ⇒ 00:16:23.330 Michele Altomare: and, like we told already, knows this because he knows who Taylor is.
156 00:16:23.490 ⇒ 00:16:28.480 Michele Altomare: So we have one second.
157 00:16:42.430 ⇒ 00:16:43.360 Michele Altomare: That’s the other one.
158 00:16:43.820 ⇒ 00:16:45.380 Michele Altomare: Okay, you guys can see this
159 00:16:46.090 ⇒ 00:16:46.430 Uttam: Yep.
160 00:16:46.430 ⇒ 00:16:46.880 Hannah Wang: Yeah.
161 00:16:46.880 ⇒ 00:16:52.740 Michele Altomare: So like this was like removal. So Hannah, this is my boss, Taylor, so he’s
162 00:16:53.130 ⇒ 00:16:55.010 Michele Altomare: the equivalent of Utam.
163 00:16:55.880 ⇒ 00:17:01.670 Michele Altomare: Well, Tom is Taylor, and Brain Forge is common Thread Co. Which is like the marketing agency, so
164 00:17:02.100 ⇒ 00:17:04.769 Michele Altomare: I work with him as like his editor, like
165 00:17:05.150 ⇒ 00:17:17.049 Michele Altomare: part ghostwriter, part draft person, but similarly to y’all, his like one of the biggest bottlenecks is just his availability. So we would write posts like these.
166 00:17:18.109 ⇒ 00:17:31.640 Michele Altomare: They were never written with AI, or they were at 1 point, but it was really clear that the content itself just wasn’t good. Also he gets a lot of traction because he has 40,000 followers. So that makes a big difference, you know, like a brand new account
167 00:17:32.030 ⇒ 00:17:38.150 Michele Altomare: wouldn’t be able to have that same level of traction. My point was my point is that
168 00:17:38.580 ⇒ 00:17:42.529 Michele Altomare: pretty quick, like, pretty quickly we realized either somebody has to staff this
169 00:17:42.850 ⇒ 00:17:47.649 Michele Altomare: to write these type of posts, which is what reminded me of okay, who’s home now? Being the person
170 00:17:49.420 ⇒ 00:17:57.510 Michele Altomare: who’s whose brain forge, who brain Forge’s voice is coming from. But then the second idea was like, Okay, in a way that
171 00:17:57.760 ⇒ 00:17:59.250 Michele Altomare: anybody can
172 00:17:59.770 ⇒ 00:18:11.030 Michele Altomare: do like. This was an audit that we did. For a client. We have these things called growth quotients, which is like, how healthy is an e-commerce business. And what is this? What is its potential for growth? It’s something that we sell.
173 00:18:11.780 ⇒ 00:18:18.589 Michele Altomare: But anybody could put this together. Host it, as Taylor, right like you could say.
174 00:18:18.810 ⇒ 00:18:21.260 Michele Altomare: Plunge right? Has a Gq. Score of 80,
175 00:18:21.750 ⇒ 00:18:34.430 Michele Altomare: and nobody would know whether or not it was actually Taylor, and because it wasn’t written copy that could be compared against what a real marketer’s voice sounds like, and kind of the crap that Gpt puts together.
176 00:18:35.670 ⇒ 00:18:41.790 Michele Altomare: It’s it comes from Taylor’s voice, but because it’s like more numerical.
177 00:18:44.000 ⇒ 00:18:50.679 Michele Altomare: It doesn’t lean so heavily on the sounding like really good coffee. So now, the person that produces this can just be like
178 00:18:50.930 ⇒ 00:18:57.240 Michele Altomare: a researcher or somebody in data who scraps all this together. You have a template, and then this becomes the fuel that
179 00:18:57.420 ⇒ 00:18:58.780 Michele Altomare: you know
180 00:19:00.050 ⇒ 00:19:16.839 Michele Altomare: that gets used as like ammunition on his socials like. We haven’t had to use these in a while, because now he’s available again. But there was a time when it was like, Okay, we’re gonna have a template which is like the Gq. Score for this type of business is this, and I would think that for Brainforge it would be possible to have
181 00:19:17.300 ⇒ 00:19:22.129 Michele Altomare: something similar like here, except it comes from the voice of Utah.
182 00:19:22.840 ⇒ 00:19:25.910 Michele Altomare: I also don’t want to ramble too much and like take away from our time
183 00:19:26.790 ⇒ 00:19:27.880 Uttam: Yeah, it makes sense.
184 00:19:27.880 ⇒ 00:19:33.190 Michele Altomare: Like, what is, what is the what is the packaging of something that? Okay, if copies the block.
185 00:19:33.410 ⇒ 00:19:36.719 Michele Altomare: there has to be something that whether it’s like research of
186 00:19:37.260 ⇒ 00:19:40.179 Michele Altomare: the industry, or something that can still come from Wuton.
187 00:19:42.120 ⇒ 00:19:50.439 Michele Altomare: but it’s like easily measurable, as like, okay, this is a rep like one repetition. Every post is a repetition, but isn’t gonna get bottlenecked by
188 00:19:52.930 ⇒ 00:19:56.669 Michele Altomare: copy, or like subjective or objective taste. Does that make sense?
189 00:19:57.660 ⇒ 00:19:59.680 Michele Altomare: This is just like one specific example.
190 00:20:00.370 ⇒ 00:20:02.650 Michele Altomare: But it was like the the way of thinking of
191 00:20:04.090 ⇒ 00:20:09.559 Michele Altomare: I don’t know. Turn turning Taylor’s like tweets into a product. But the raw materials for that product
192 00:20:09.900 ⇒ 00:20:12.090 Michele Altomare: can’t come from Taylor cause he’s unavailable.
193 00:20:12.550 ⇒ 00:20:25.069 Michele Altomare: So then, that forced like, okay, let’s figure out a way to turn this into like a tweet thread that doesn’t actually require any legitimate copy. It can just come out as like screenshots or different things, and they tended to do well, because it was things that the industry was interested in.
194 00:20:27.580 ⇒ 00:20:30.020 Michele Altomare: Does that kind of make sense? Maybe not.
195 00:20:30.020 ⇒ 00:20:32.080 Uttam: Yeah, that as an asset makes sense.
196 00:20:33.400 ⇒ 00:20:50.210 Michele Altomare: So that’s so, yeah, so that’s like, if there was a super lean team where we don’t have time to edit a ton of video, A B test on the website, the focus would be, okay. We’re gonna get the minimum required assets for sales for them to get what they need from a design department. Then after that.
197 00:20:50.530 ⇒ 00:20:53.550 Michele Altomare: for like one week or 2 weeks.
198 00:20:53.720 ⇒ 00:21:00.180 Michele Altomare: the only focus is to make as many repetitions as like of this asset post all of them, and then see what happens.
199 00:21:00.400 ⇒ 00:21:03.779 Michele Altomare: And if, after one week or 2 weeks, or whatever the number you decide.
200 00:21:04.100 ⇒ 00:21:10.670 Michele Altomare: it hasn’t gotten the response that you need. Then you scrap it and move on to the next thing. But the generation of the asset like
201 00:21:10.790 ⇒ 00:21:17.360 Michele Altomare: it shouldn’t have to take a ton of back and forth between, like a Pm. And the person who writes it, and the designer and somebody who approves it, because then it just
202 00:21:17.820 ⇒ 00:21:19.639 Michele Altomare: it slows you down, you know
203 00:21:21.030 ⇒ 00:21:23.510 Michele Altomare: these might these, all these things might be obvious. I don’t know if
204 00:21:24.010 ⇒ 00:21:27.258 Uttam: No, I guess I guess my, I guess my
205 00:21:28.890 ⇒ 00:21:34.439 Uttam: my my ultimate understanding is then I just have to start to Pm this closer
206 00:21:35.350 ⇒ 00:21:41.600 Uttam: because I get you’re like, you’re you’re getting to tactical things we could do
207 00:21:42.500 ⇒ 00:21:49.819 Uttam: but dude fundamentally, we’re not measuring whether any of that’s gonna work or not or like, how do we measure? Right? So ultimately, I think
208 00:21:49.960 ⇒ 00:21:53.920 Uttam: between this crew, if the answer is
209 00:21:54.520 ⇒ 00:22:04.911 Uttam: okay, I just need to. Pm, and we need to run like, I just need to look at this every day. Then then so be it. I just wanna know that that’s the that’s the answer.
210 00:22:05.530 ⇒ 00:22:08.859 Uttam: You know what I mean, I guess, Hannah, what do you think
211 00:22:11.482 ⇒ 00:22:18.160 Hannah Wang: Yeah, I mean, I feel like Ryan does try to create trackers.
212 00:22:18.320 ⇒ 00:22:20.230 Hannah Wang: But I feel like that kind of
213 00:22:20.230 ⇒ 00:22:21.770 Uttam: Where I’m coming from right
214 00:22:22.140 ⇒ 00:22:27.200 Hannah Wang: Yeah, it’s kind of like all over the place. And I don’t like I just wanna be able to understand from like.
215 00:22:27.860 ⇒ 00:22:39.329 Hannah Wang: oh, one like 5 min glance like, Oh, this is what’s happening. But I feel like he created trackers and like different sheets. And I’m also having a hard time keeping track of where everything is
216 00:22:39.330 ⇒ 00:22:46.010 Uttam: Sheets is the sheets is like is like, completely useless. Because that is, you have to go. You have to go update it. It’s like.
217 00:22:46.330 ⇒ 00:22:52.699 Uttam: we literally do this for companies like, we don’t do sheets because it’s impossible to update, like we have all that data coming in.
218 00:22:53.400 ⇒ 00:22:56.189 Uttam: So I mean, I, here’s like, here’s my, my.
219 00:22:56.540 ⇒ 00:23:04.280 Uttam: would you agree? I think maybe if we can agree on one thing is that do you think we should work to prioritize the design teams
220 00:23:04.510 ⇒ 00:23:08.979 Uttam: backlog, as it pertains to, let’s say, outside of sales.
221 00:23:09.540 ⇒ 00:23:12.529 Uttam: Should we talk to do that, we should do that? More data driven
222 00:23:14.030 ⇒ 00:23:18.960 Hannah Wang: Like what we produce should be backed by what we’re seeing. Like the data we’re seeing
223 00:23:18.960 ⇒ 00:23:21.150 Uttam: Yeah, we’re almost like, for example.
224 00:23:21.340 ⇒ 00:23:33.980 Uttam: I don’t know what it is, but let’s say we get a sense for what is the what is the conversion rate from people going onto the landing page, which is the number one page to going into the pricing
225 00:23:34.220 ⇒ 00:23:37.740 Uttam: right. If I was to look at it right now it looks like in the last.
226 00:23:39.960 ⇒ 00:23:48.569 Uttam: In the last 30 days there were 787 page views on landing page, and there were 50 page views on the
227 00:23:49.050 ⇒ 00:23:52.909 Uttam: pricing page. So that’s about a conversion rate of
228 00:23:53.360 ⇒ 00:23:53.960 Hannah Wang: Whatever
229 00:23:53.960 ⇒ 00:23:57.259 Uttam: That is less than 10%, or whatever that is.
230 00:23:58.370 ⇒ 00:24:07.489 Uttam: I would say that moving that is more important than like this is where, like there has to be both sides where my feedback would be. How does?
231 00:24:08.440 ⇒ 00:24:13.710 Uttam: How does redesigning the blog page impact the Mqls?
232 00:24:13.910 ⇒ 00:24:16.220 Uttam: My perspective would be, it doesn’t
233 00:24:17.330 ⇒ 00:24:21.850 Uttam: Right. But again, like I don’t. This is where I the reason why I don’t want to come on as like
234 00:24:22.160 ⇒ 00:24:38.819 Uttam: Dictator, and just say that because I I may not know like I I still want, because the natural place for this to go is everything is measured, and then nothing looks good, because everything is so like focused on measurement, like blah blah, like, I don’t want that to happen.
235 00:24:38.930 ⇒ 00:24:44.270 Uttam: But I still want to hear like, okay, something it could be like, you know, like.
236 00:24:44.690 ⇒ 00:24:56.819 Uttam: it’s very obvious that something is so ugly. We need to do that. Okay, you don’t need data to sort of prove that. But in this situation, if I was to look at the data, I would say, our number one problem is that not enough? People are going to the pricing page.
237 00:24:57.240 ⇒ 00:25:03.780 Uttam: And so it’s probably best to run a design sprint on with that problem in mind.
238 00:25:04.090 ⇒ 00:25:08.720 Uttam: and I don’t know if any. If the blog touches that right
239 00:25:09.480 ⇒ 00:25:11.150 Michele Altomare: Do you think enough traffic
240 00:25:11.450 ⇒ 00:25:19.530 Uttam: Let me just play the other side. The other side of that is, hey? It looks like 2 of our 2 of our top pages are blog articles.
241 00:25:21.300 ⇒ 00:25:27.590 Uttam: Okay, maybe we should work on making the blog to pricing page conversion rate higher.
242 00:25:28.400 ⇒ 00:25:33.390 Uttam: you know. But like, that’s the sort of that’s I think maybe the conversation we need to spend more time having
243 00:25:36.670 ⇒ 00:25:37.789 Uttam: sorry. Go ahead
244 00:25:38.550 ⇒ 00:25:39.895 Michele Altomare: No, I was just gonna say
245 00:25:44.800 ⇒ 00:25:47.071 Michele Altomare: You might just call me the
246 00:25:47.630 ⇒ 00:25:50.130 Michele Altomare: But my do. My gut feeling is that
247 00:25:50.790 ⇒ 00:25:59.260 Michele Altomare: the numbers aren’t. I don’t know if the numbers are large enough that from month to month you would be able to confidently say.
248 00:25:59.500 ⇒ 00:26:01.580 Michele Altomare: okay. These redesigns
249 00:26:02.110 ⇒ 00:26:11.460 Michele Altomare: moved us from 700 visits and 50 people clicking the pricing page to 800 visits, 12 people clicking the pricing page.
250 00:26:11.740 ⇒ 00:26:13.329 Michele Altomare: You know what I mean, like
251 00:26:14.140 ⇒ 00:26:14.800 Uttam: I’m always.
252 00:26:14.800 ⇒ 00:26:16.650 Uttam: What volume does it matter
253 00:26:17.480 ⇒ 00:26:18.549 Michele Altomare: What’s that?
254 00:26:18.550 ⇒ 00:26:21.900 Uttam: At what volume does it become significant?
255 00:26:21.900 ⇒ 00:26:25.389 Michele Altomare: I don’t know. I mean, I would just think that it would have to be more than that, like
256 00:26:25.900 ⇒ 00:26:28.740 Uttam: I know. But then, dude, you’re telling me to run blind still.
257 00:26:29.260 ⇒ 00:26:30.060 Michele Altomare: Yeah.
258 00:26:30.230 ⇒ 00:26:34.489 Uttam: I don’t. I don’t like that. I don’t like, because otherwise I have to measure something. How do we know?
259 00:26:35.270 ⇒ 00:26:39.769 Uttam: I either measure at the bottom of the funnel, which we know is 0. It’s been 0,
260 00:26:40.050 ⇒ 00:26:48.900 Uttam: most likely going to be 0 if we don’t do anything, or I measure the most top of funnel, which is like impressions on social
261 00:26:49.220 ⇒ 00:26:50.230 Uttam: right.
262 00:26:50.880 ⇒ 00:26:52.640 Uttam: I’m down to start anywhere
263 00:26:53.230 ⇒ 00:26:56.290 Michele Altomare: But those okay. So then, if you’re moving higher up the funnel.
264 00:26:56.860 ⇒ 00:26:59.739 Michele Altomare: I don’t think that it would be conversion rate
265 00:26:59.740 ⇒ 00:27:00.780 Uttam: I agree.
266 00:27:01.920 ⇒ 00:27:05.700 Michele Altomare: That’s why that’s why I think the paid. That’s why I think
267 00:27:06.210 ⇒ 00:27:11.140 Uttam: Page views is still probably the best proxy, because
268 00:27:11.400 ⇒ 00:27:15.980 Michele Altomare: That’s that’s the one thing I would. On that I’ll agree, because I think what’s the difference between
269 00:27:16.110 ⇒ 00:27:19.479 Michele Altomare: the lever that gets you from 700 views at
270 00:27:19.820 ⇒ 00:27:25.169 Michele Altomare: from 10% to like 15 versus like 5,000 views. Still, at 10%
271 00:27:25.170 ⇒ 00:27:34.830 Uttam: But dude, I’m telling you like 1 1 person. All the people looking at our site are most likely people who want to work for us, or who wanna, who want to become a customer.
272 00:27:35.370 ⇒ 00:27:39.159 Uttam: These are not like, we’re not selling a 5, 99 product.
273 00:27:39.420 ⇒ 00:27:42.530 Uttam: So if people come to the site. And they get to pricing.
274 00:27:43.500 ⇒ 00:27:45.370 Uttam: They’re thinking about something.
275 00:27:46.120 ⇒ 00:27:55.890 Uttam: Right? 50. P, yeah. 50 people. But those 50 people went to checkouts or pricing either. They’re from a competitor, or they’re from a potential client.
276 00:27:57.590 ⇒ 00:28:02.379 Uttam: And I want to talk to those people like, I want them to. I want, I want to get a phone call.
277 00:28:04.790 ⇒ 00:28:08.130 Uttam: This is where, like, really, the, this is where I do think that
278 00:28:08.520 ⇒ 00:28:17.160 Uttam: the reason why we have an all star design team is to take a problem like that, which is 50 people came to pricing and didn’t ask for more info.
279 00:28:18.610 ⇒ 00:28:20.930 Uttam: That’s gonna be my next question.
280 00:28:21.360 ⇒ 00:28:22.230 Uttam: Alright.
281 00:28:22.970 ⇒ 00:28:28.800 Uttam: That, I think, is a fun question to go run a design sprint around right?
282 00:28:31.110 ⇒ 00:28:41.509 Uttam: And that’s how I’m thinking about prioritizing the work, which is like, I only want to take on work that’s gonna affect the key drivers towards the core. Kpi, which is, leads booked through.
283 00:28:42.120 ⇒ 00:28:44.109 Uttam: leads book through through site
284 00:28:44.970 ⇒ 00:28:55.160 Michele Altomare: I just think at that point you’d have to have like, you just have to know that on some website for some similar service at 50. Business to the price page. Somebody is booking somewhere.
285 00:28:55.360 ⇒ 00:29:00.940 Michele Altomare: you know, to know that there is conversion
286 00:29:00.940 ⇒ 00:29:05.659 Uttam: But I just need one dude. If we even got one through marketing efforts, it would pay for the whole thing
287 00:29:06.610 ⇒ 00:29:07.390 Michele Altomare: Yeah.
288 00:29:08.380 ⇒ 00:29:09.210 Uttam: Right.
289 00:29:13.920 ⇒ 00:29:15.360 Michele Altomare: Oh, that’s true, I mean, you know.
290 00:29:15.570 ⇒ 00:29:17.590 Michele Altomare: right? You know where I come from. So I’m I’m
291 00:29:17.760 ⇒ 00:29:19.479 Uttam: No, I know you’re in the high volume
292 00:29:19.480 ⇒ 00:29:22.579 Michele Altomare: The world of like of like. Oh, you’re selling like a $90
293 00:29:22.580 ⇒ 00:29:28.949 Uttam: No, no, you’re you’re you’re in the high volume game, I guess. But what I what I’m more interested in is like how you prioritize.
294 00:29:29.480 ⇒ 00:29:31.500 Uttam: I guess, is ultimately like
295 00:29:32.250 ⇒ 00:29:38.309 Uttam: how you prioritize and how you execute and look at feedback cycles from from these types of changes.
296 00:29:38.670 ⇒ 00:29:45.699 Uttam: Right? Cause cause. Again, I’m used to pming like our engineering teams. And, Hannah, you’re you’re used to being on engineering like we can run.
297 00:29:46.230 ⇒ 00:29:51.670 Uttam: We can run. We can just run. I mean I this is what I I used to do me. It would just be me and Ann
298 00:29:51.800 ⇒ 00:29:53.495 Uttam: and me, and and
299 00:29:54.160 ⇒ 00:29:59.829 Uttam: like Ryan for a while where I would run daily, stand ups around marketing, and we would just talk about what’s on marketing’s plate.
300 00:30:00.310 ⇒ 00:30:04.820 Uttam: I can run those, and instead we start to run those where we look at data every day.
301 00:30:07.270 ⇒ 00:30:17.160 Uttam: right? I just need to know if that’s like that’s it. If that’s all that’s the most effective thing. Then I would rather just do. I’d rather just do that.
302 00:30:19.830 ⇒ 00:30:20.780 Uttam: yeah.
303 00:30:25.410 ⇒ 00:30:28.434 Hannah Wang: Personally for me, I feel like that’d be helpful.
304 00:30:29.900 ⇒ 00:30:32.371 Hannah Wang: I can’t speak for Ann or Ryan. But
305 00:30:32.850 ⇒ 00:30:45.950 Hannah Wang: yeah, just like having someone walk through like I think, on a real live call, like pulling up these things instead of just slacking it. And then all the messages gets lost. I feel like. That’s what tends to happen
306 00:30:45.950 ⇒ 00:30:46.650 Uttam: That’s helpful.
307 00:30:48.270 ⇒ 00:30:49.870 Hannah Wang: Yeah, because.
308 00:30:50.210 ⇒ 00:31:04.589 Hannah Wang: like I, and quite honestly, like, I can look at the numbers, I can look at the data. But I think just having like one tutorial like this is where you can go to look at stuff. It would be helpful cause for me. I look at, I pull up post talk, or I pull up all these things, and I’m like I don’t even know what’s
309 00:31:04.590 ⇒ 00:31:09.550 Uttam: No, no, I know for me, like, Yeah, I’m I hear you on that. Okay.
310 00:31:10.580 ⇒ 00:31:15.249 Uttam: But okay, then, how do you? How do you feel about if I was to go through
311 00:31:15.380 ⇒ 00:31:20.909 Uttam: like today, I’m gonna try to go through everything that got put into linear. Do you think
312 00:31:21.140 ⇒ 00:31:25.819 Uttam: that sort of basing the priority off of
313 00:31:26.400 ⇒ 00:31:32.059 Uttam: how it affects this is helpful, do you think? And do you think, instead, we should like
314 00:31:32.690 ⇒ 00:31:34.280 Uttam: totally start from like.
315 00:31:35.620 ⇒ 00:31:40.000 Uttam: I mean, this is a common term we start from like 1st principles where me, maybe me, you
316 00:31:40.540 ⇒ 00:31:57.629 Uttam: and and Ryan, we just sit. Or maybe it’s me and you. We, just we just we, we do. We go through a customer navigation where we will go onto the site, and we sort of try to pick off the easy things like, if you go to the site, it’s we’re not doing any sort of key call to action. To be like, go to pricing, go to pricing, go to pricing right?
317 00:31:57.800 ⇒ 00:32:04.119 Uttam: So maybe that’s something that we should do. And then the task is instead, hey, we should run a design sprint of how to increase.
318 00:32:04.310 ⇒ 00:32:12.569 Uttam: And this is where maybe I’ll disagree with Mickey, like, I think if we make a change we have. We have thousands of people coming to site every week.
319 00:32:13.130 ⇒ 00:32:16.480 Uttam: If we pair both me posting more on Linkedin
320 00:32:16.630 ⇒ 00:32:20.759 Uttam: with these changes, I think we’ll see the conversion rate increase.
321 00:32:21.579 ⇒ 00:32:27.859 Uttam: But I need you like. I need everybody to be bought in on that. That’s a good way to do prioritization.
322 00:32:29.530 ⇒ 00:32:32.410 Uttam: And I also need to know that there may be things that we can’t
323 00:32:33.420 ⇒ 00:32:37.559 Uttam: measure the immediate impact of that we still need to prioritize.
324 00:32:45.480 ⇒ 00:32:51.229 Uttam: If we’re if we’re if we’re on the same page there, then I think we have. Our answer is that
325 00:32:51.400 ⇒ 00:32:55.749 Uttam: we’ll just sort of continue to run where we just try to look at the data every day.
326 00:32:56.070 ⇒ 00:33:01.750 Uttam: One day we’ll look at where people are coming from. One day we’ll try to look at some session replays.
327 00:33:02.060 ⇒ 00:33:04.250 Uttam: and we’ll try to just do things that way.
328 00:33:06.910 ⇒ 00:33:11.679 Uttam: I mean the the you know. The only risk there is that it’s my, it’s me like that’s the problem.
329 00:33:12.870 ⇒ 00:33:14.900 Hannah Wang: And your time. Yeah.
330 00:33:15.360 ⇒ 00:33:23.979 Hannah Wang: Have we done that before? Like, have you sat with Ryan and Ann? And like cause I know you ran the daily, not daily, like by
331 00:33:23.980 ⇒ 00:33:24.330 Uttam: We were.
332 00:33:24.330 ⇒ 00:33:28.499 Uttam: You want to 0. This is when we had no like websites
333 00:33:28.500 ⇒ 00:33:29.399 Hannah Wang: Got it? Oh, okay.
334 00:33:29.400 ⇒ 00:33:32.759 Uttam: It was so like it was like so early.
335 00:33:37.230 ⇒ 00:33:37.745 Hannah Wang: Yeah.
336 00:33:38.940 ⇒ 00:33:45.699 Hannah Wang: I mean, just looking at the website right now, like, yeah, none of the Ctas, like, if the pricing page is where you want to direct
337 00:33:45.700 ⇒ 00:33:46.340 Uttam: Yes.
338 00:33:46.340 ⇒ 00:33:56.276 Hannah Wang: Your users to like. There is no Cta that says, Oh, this will take you to the pricing page. All the Ctas are chat with us, and I feel like that’s intimidating, for, like people
339 00:33:56.560 ⇒ 00:34:03.149 Uttam: I guess my point is that why am I the only one, seeing that
340 00:34:04.730 ⇒ 00:34:07.249 Hannah Wang: I think that’s where, like the numbers thing would help
341 00:34:07.250 ⇒ 00:34:07.660 Uttam: Yeah.
342 00:34:07.660 ⇒ 00:34:09.980 Hannah Wang: Like to me like I didn’t.
343 00:34:10.179 ⇒ 00:34:28.100 Hannah Wang: No, or yeah, I was like, Oh, yeah, pricing page is helpful. But like, I didn’t think that that was like the place that you wanted to direct. Everyone like I thought the goal was like, Oh, yeah, like book a call like, that’s kind of like the main Ctas on the homepage, like chat with us like I thought that was like the ultimate goal. But
344 00:34:28.100 ⇒ 00:34:36.700 Uttam: I guess, ultimately like, if people go from pricing to book and call homepage to book a call. This is where I don’t like. If I get a call we win
345 00:34:37.159 ⇒ 00:34:37.499 Hannah Wang: -
346 00:34:37.500 ⇒ 00:34:43.900 Uttam: But if I get a call we win, whether they come from any this, and this is again. Maybe there has to be a Cta on every single page.
347 00:34:44.100 ⇒ 00:34:46.600 Uttam: Right? But those are the things where it’s like.
348 00:34:47.980 ⇒ 00:35:03.880 Uttam: I was hoping that between you, Ryan and Ann, that, like those types of like very clear observations are like, super clear right? Because look, if we can keep iterating the pricing page. But like 50 people went to it. So
349 00:35:04.270 ⇒ 00:35:08.110 Uttam: it’s like there’s bigger. There’s bigger fish to fry here.
350 00:35:08.630 ⇒ 00:35:23.449 Uttam: and that’s really what I’m what I’m trying to ask is like I can do some project management on the marketing team. But I really believe that fundamentally like great markers you guys are, gonna look, you guys should go to the site yourself and be like, would I buy this product
351 00:35:23.850 ⇒ 00:35:34.670 Uttam: right like this is where you kind of lose this like you lose the force for the trees is, this is where, like I’m happy to do some. Pm, but I really
352 00:35:35.540 ⇒ 00:35:45.730 Uttam: Pm. Is like a Pm. Is a funny way to just offset responsibility. And I, you know I don’t want it to be that I’m not saying that you guys are doing that. But like, that’s naturally what happens
353 00:35:45.730 ⇒ 00:35:46.160 Hannah Wang: Yeah.
354 00:35:46.160 ⇒ 00:35:52.659 Uttam: And I want, like, I want people to be bought in because and we can change anything here like everything is fair game.
355 00:35:54.430 ⇒ 00:35:55.990 Uttam: And so
356 00:35:56.360 ⇒ 00:36:16.769 Uttam: if we continue looking left and right and saying like, what are all the people in our industry do? We’re going to get some monstrosity website, we’re going to end up in the same place where nobody goes to those sites. But this is where, like, you guys are the designers where you know the ideas that are possible for me. My job is just to give you a little bit of the project management prioritization framework.
357 00:36:16.950 ⇒ 00:36:26.759 Uttam: Then I’m not. I don’t like need to exist like right? And that’s sort of my hope. And that’s that’s really like on all teams. That’s what I’ve been doing, which is like.
358 00:36:27.150 ⇒ 00:36:42.790 Uttam: I just want to enable everyone to sort of fish and be able to understand. Like, how would we prioritize like, how does brainforce prioritize work? Okay, let’s go find the data. Let’s go make the hypothesis. Okay, let’s go run a sprint on this like you guys, you guys don’t need me to say that. You know
359 00:36:44.880 ⇒ 00:36:46.570 Michele Altomare: Or maybe we do.
360 00:36:46.570 ⇒ 00:36:49.625 Michele Altomare: I have a I have something at 5 30. They’re gonna prep for
361 00:36:51.130 ⇒ 00:36:52.959 Michele Altomare: But I’ll I’ll text you tonight.
362 00:36:53.560 ⇒ 00:36:55.520 Michele Altomare: I think there’s like a lot
363 00:36:58.050 ⇒ 00:37:01.730 Michele Altomare: I don’t know a lot to jam on, but I mean
364 00:37:01.730 ⇒ 00:37:02.799 Uttam: Yeah, think about it. I think
365 00:37:02.820 ⇒ 00:37:08.060 Michele Altomare: And I gave a lot of just like good context. I get it because there’s just so many things to be
366 00:37:08.390 ⇒ 00:37:13.820 Michele Altomare: what is prioritizing anything. It’s like unlimited option with limited resources, and then picking one
367 00:37:14.727 ⇒ 00:37:21.160 Michele Altomare: and then it’s like, Do you spend part of those resources measuring the thing or just doing more
368 00:37:22.150 ⇒ 00:37:23.040 Uttam: Totally.
369 00:37:23.040 ⇒ 00:37:24.206 Michele Altomare: Now it’s
370 00:37:24.790 ⇒ 00:37:29.059 Uttam: Yeah, no, I mean, but like even, that’s why, even on the document, I’m like.
371 00:37:29.930 ⇒ 00:37:36.900 Uttam: I just need to know. Hey, we’re these 3 things are, gonna increase the conversion rate, and then we should hit it
372 00:37:37.240 ⇒ 00:37:38.600 Uttam: right like
373 00:37:38.810 ⇒ 00:37:43.279 Uttam: right now. The only thing I think we all have agreed on is that I should post more. I’m gonna do that
374 00:37:43.280 ⇒ 00:37:43.775 Hannah Wang: No.
375 00:37:44.658 ⇒ 00:37:47.769 Uttam: I’m gonna do that. But I feel like
376 00:37:48.320 ⇒ 00:37:51.629 Uttam: we’re if you. If we don’t know where we’re going, we’re never gonna get there
377 00:37:53.110 ⇒ 00:38:00.049 Michele Altomare: Oh, it’s a it’s a pleasure. Sorry I gotta jump real quick. I’ll send you guys a message
378 00:38:00.400 ⇒ 00:38:01.110 Uttam: Exactly.
379 00:38:04.554 ⇒ 00:38:12.509 Uttam: Yeah, I think I think, how about how about we do this? Maybe I’ll just see for the next like week or 2 I’ll start to run
380 00:38:12.650 ⇒ 00:38:22.139 Uttam: some sort of like Daily Sync, where we just look at the data. And that way at least, linear and post hog will be like clean for us.
381 00:38:22.520 ⇒ 00:38:35.620 Uttam: But I would. I’m gonna probably reiterate. This is like, I’m expecting that we only do that for like a week or 2, or like a few weeks, and then I could sort of hand it off, because everyone can sort of look at like there’s not some
382 00:38:36.120 ⇒ 00:38:40.630 Uttam: I’m not like waving a special one and just looking at 2 numbers and dividing them.
383 00:38:42.360 ⇒ 00:38:45.720 Uttam: I don’t want to oversimplify it. I don’t wanna like I don’t. Wanna
384 00:38:45.960 ⇒ 00:38:49.280 Uttam: but I want to teach everyone how to do this, because
385 00:38:49.280 ⇒ 00:38:49.720 Hannah Wang: Yes.
386 00:38:49.720 ⇒ 00:38:54.739 Uttam: It’ll make prioritization super clear. And we all have the same goals in mind. Right? So.
387 00:38:57.070 ⇒ 00:39:12.969 Uttam: you know. And this is something that I’ll be running with engineering with the Pm’s, too, is we’re gonna start looking at throughput and stuff. But at some point I’m gonna just gonna ask them like, hey? Is the client doing well or not? They’ll have 10 metrics that they can go for. Provide proof like, say, the story around
388 00:39:15.280 ⇒ 00:39:16.270 Uttam: so
389 00:39:18.200 ⇒ 00:39:27.439 Hannah Wang: Yeah, I I think that makes sense. Like, I think, yeah, I mean to be quite honest. I think numbers are scary or like spreadsheets and stuff. It’s like scary
390 00:39:27.440 ⇒ 00:39:28.420 Uttam: Yeah, yeah.
391 00:39:28.420 ⇒ 00:39:55.669 Hannah Wang: Where to start. So I think just having some guidance on to where to look and how to navigate through like post time, for example, like that’d be helpful. And then, yeah, I think the example that you gave of like, Oh, you know, people hop onto the homepage. And then 50 people go to the pricing page. But no one like books. A call. Okay, that’s like a problem that we can. And then I can try to troubleshoot and solve and design for. So I think that is like the missing piece, like
392 00:39:56.280 ⇒ 00:40:02.806 Hannah Wang: the data. And then what the pro, what the data shows like. I think that was the missing piece, at least for me.
393 00:40:03.250 ⇒ 00:40:11.460 Hannah Wang: so that you can like take action on it. And I think for those meetings. If you could loop in amber, too. I don’t know if she’s like the official Pm. For
394 00:40:11.460 ⇒ 00:40:21.480 Uttam: Yeah. So with Amber, she she’s like she’s like me where she’ll she’ll just like be helpful wherever she can. But she’s also gonna end up like me, like she’s gonna burn out
395 00:40:21.480 ⇒ 00:40:21.810 Hannah Wang: Yeah.
396 00:40:21.810 ⇒ 00:40:26.989 Uttam: So I basically just said, like, Please just nail our client work. Because I really
397 00:40:26.990 ⇒ 00:40:27.440 Hannah Wang: Yeah.
398 00:40:27.440 ⇒ 00:40:43.175 Uttam: I told her like, Hey, if you nail client work I have. I have an extra 4 HA day like I will. Pm, I’ll pm this team and operate like I would love to nothing more than that. So that’s why I was like, just please nail client work.
399 00:40:43.670 ⇒ 00:40:50.430 Uttam: Because if she nails, that’s that’s that’s extremely extremely hard, and and that pays all the bills
400 00:40:50.430 ⇒ 00:40:50.810 Hannah Wang: Yeah.
401 00:40:50.810 ⇒ 00:40:55.140 Uttam: Oh, but I’m freeing up like I’m out of like another 3 h of meetings a day, basically.
402 00:40:55.140 ⇒ 00:40:56.020 Hannah Wang: Nice
403 00:40:56.240 ⇒ 00:41:02.936 Uttam: So I I was. I wrote down a bunch of topics to write about for Linkedin today,
404 00:41:03.740 ⇒ 00:41:28.990 Uttam: and a few more things. So let’s just let’s try to run something. Maybe it’s even every day or every other day on marketing, just as soon as we all feel comfortable with the data. And then, ideally, what we’ll do is we’ll prioritize the stuff in in linear based on the problems we all agree on, like, we all agree that, hey? Like we’re not driving enough traffic to pricing. Then that’ll sort of be the headline right like
405 00:41:28.990 ⇒ 00:41:29.620 Hannah Wang: Sure.
406 00:41:29.620 ⇒ 00:41:30.889 Uttam: That’ll be the
407 00:41:31.120 ⇒ 00:41:55.129 Uttam: okay. We need to drive more traffic to pricing. And then there may be 5 or 6 different things which is like better days to pricing better something else. And and that’s, I think, a good way of of doing it. And then also we should be able to clearly measure that that those start to increase right. The other thing on postdog is gonna be trying to look at when we made a change and then measuring
408 00:41:55.130 ⇒ 00:41:55.730 Hannah Wang: Yeah.
409 00:41:56.090 ⇒ 00:41:57.889 Uttam: Whether it had an impact or not.
410 00:41:57.890 ⇒ 00:42:00.950 Uttam: Right? Yeah, I think running
411 00:42:01.240 ⇒ 00:42:06.569 Hannah Wang: Like just this process like a sprint cycle, is helpful.
412 00:42:06.570 ⇒ 00:42:10.879 Hannah Wang: Okay, maybe. But like cause, sprints are 2 weeks right? Or that’s normal.
413 00:42:10.880 ⇒ 00:42:12.020 Uttam: We can do whatever we
414 00:42:12.020 ⇒ 00:42:14.350 Hannah Wang: This grant we could do whatever we need to do. But yeah.
415 00:42:14.350 ⇒ 00:42:19.659 Hannah Wang: I think just like at the beginning of each sprint, no sprint, no matter how long it is like, okay, this, we we
416 00:42:19.660 ⇒ 00:42:20.179 Hannah Wang: is that all.
417 00:42:20.180 ⇒ 00:42:43.500 Hannah Wang: And this is our goal for this sprint. Let’s work on that, and then retro that later. So like, yeah, like sprint planning. And then a retro, I think that type of cycle would help. And then, as like, I start to get familiar with the data, and Ann, and hopefully, Ryan, too. I think we’ll become more like independent. And then you can just sit in on the meetings, and we can report to you versus you like having to
418 00:42:43.500 ⇒ 00:42:58.719 Uttam: It’s not that I don’t want to be there. It’s just I am. Anything I touch is like risk of not happening. So I’m just mindful of that. But also do you? I think 2 weeks is fine like, for most work is 2 weeks like a good thing of like to go end to end on stuff
419 00:42:59.604 ⇒ 00:43:20.470 Hannah Wang: Depends on what it is. I feel like as like sales assets it. It depends like the deck took forever. One pages also took a long time, so that’s hard to gauge, but now that we have a template for it, it might be faster to push it out. So I think 2 weeks is a good place to start and then on the website to like changing Cts and stuff that takes like no time. Right? So
420 00:43:20.470 ⇒ 00:43:21.020 Uttam: Okay.
421 00:43:22.330 ⇒ 00:43:27.940 Hannah Wang: yeah, I think, obviously, we need to loop in holly more. Now, if we’re gonna like focus on the website
422 00:43:27.940 ⇒ 00:43:31.899 Uttam: I’m gonna ask Colleen to help me with post hog and a few things like that
423 00:43:32.170 ⇒ 00:43:33.390 Hannah Wang: Yeah.
424 00:43:33.550 ⇒ 00:43:36.450 Uttam: I also may ask Casey to come. Help!
425 00:43:40.030 ⇒ 00:43:43.860 Uttam: He sort of floats around like me on terms of engineering, so I may ask
426 00:43:43.860 ⇒ 00:43:44.260 Hannah Wang: Okay.
427 00:43:44.260 ⇒ 00:43:45.200 Uttam: Up to
428 00:43:48.730 ⇒ 00:43:51.939 Uttam: And like we, we’re hiring a couple more data analysts.
429 00:43:52.120 ⇒ 00:43:57.590 Uttam: The lovely thing about that is, I’ll have them work on measuring our own business at some point.
430 00:43:58.352 ⇒ 00:44:04.479 Uttam: Okay, okay. So how about I? How about I’ll I’ll send a note. Maybe I’ll send a meeting for tomorrow
431 00:44:04.970 ⇒ 00:44:09.910 Uttam: morning, where we’ll just run our 1st like sort of stand up planning
432 00:44:10.680 ⇒ 00:44:15.610 Uttam: we’ll go through. Just make sure linear is good, and then I’ll have. I’ll have it this front end
433 00:44:15.990 ⇒ 00:44:17.389 Uttam: next Friday.
434 00:44:17.680 ⇒ 00:44:18.890 Hannah Wang: Yeah.
435 00:44:19.110 ⇒ 00:44:36.980 Hannah Wang: yeah, you can even take over cause. The I have, I took over the weekly design meetings at 10, central like, you can just take over that time. And also the design review session is right after that. But honestly, we don’t like design side. We don’t have much to show. So you can just
436 00:44:36.980 ⇒ 00:44:40.649 Uttam: I mean, that’s why I think maybe we do the design reviews as we need them.
437 00:44:41.323 ⇒ 00:44:43.290 Hannah Wang: Okay, but I don’t know.
438 00:44:43.290 ⇒ 00:44:45.170 Uttam: You’re still doing the one tomorrow
439 00:44:45.880 ⇒ 00:44:48.060 Hannah Wang: Yes, yeah.
440 00:44:48.684 ⇒ 00:44:58.190 Hannah Wang: But I don’t know how you wanna like decide that like, should I ask you? Or should I tell you like, hey? We have stuff to review like every Monday tomorrow we’ll review it, or like
441 00:44:59.180 ⇒ 00:45:04.679 Hannah Wang: day of or I don’t know what the best like cadence where that is
442 00:45:04.680 ⇒ 00:45:07.219 Uttam: For the for the design review
443 00:45:07.220 ⇒ 00:45:08.940 Hannah Wang: Yeah.
444 00:45:10.105 ⇒ 00:45:12.030 Uttam: Wait! What do you mean?
445 00:45:13.390 ⇒ 00:45:18.359 Hannah Wang: Cause you said like we can run the review sessions as we need them right
446 00:45:19.040 ⇒ 00:45:20.150 Uttam: Yeah, I was talking
447 00:45:20.150 ⇒ 00:45:20.760 Hannah Wang: Another meeting.
448 00:45:20.760 ⇒ 00:45:29.529 Uttam: Yeah, I guess I was more like, we need to know what type of work required with the review session. And then, as part of closing out the ticket. It’ll be. Did we run a review
449 00:45:29.530 ⇒ 00:45:30.630 Hannah Wang: Oh! Oh! Oh!
450 00:45:30.630 ⇒ 00:45:46.300 Uttam: Session with it. So, for example, this review session, we’re going through all of this thing. I’ll make sure that this is ticketed, or it’s part of like this push. But then, for example, if we were to get out like a new one, Pager, we wanna make sure everything is
451 00:45:46.440 ⇒ 00:45:48.127 Uttam: sort of yeah.
452 00:45:48.890 ⇒ 00:45:49.480 Hannah Wang: Yeah.
453 00:45:49.820 ⇒ 00:45:50.275 Hannah Wang: Okay.
454 00:45:51.160 ⇒ 00:45:59.570 Hannah Wang: yeah. Cause I know, Robert requested a new one. So and I will start working on that and Ryan as well. So we can review that.
455 00:46:00.250 ⇒ 00:46:02.170 Hannah Wang: I don’t know. I feel like
456 00:46:02.280 ⇒ 00:46:13.569 Hannah Wang: that’s the push and pull between marketing and like getting approval from you. It’s like, Robert. Yeah, everything looks good, so he’ll just push it out right away and want it right away. But I want you to review it also.
457 00:46:13.980 ⇒ 00:46:17.730 Uttam: No, no, I’m I’m I’m like the most friendly review you’ll have
458 00:46:17.730 ⇒ 00:46:18.360 Hannah Wang: Okay.
459 00:46:18.360 ⇒ 00:46:23.190 Uttam: Cause. I’ll take out the stuff because other people, you know how it goes like if you put something in front of people who
460 00:46:23.430 ⇒ 00:46:29.380 Uttam: who who pay attention to like the nitty gritty. They’ll just lose everything and be like that was Miss Sales, and shit like that
461 00:46:29.490 ⇒ 00:46:39.180 Uttam: like I’ll take care of that. But again, I think everything what we’ll do is similar to engineering. We’ll just have like break. If we’re doing a new page, then it’ll go through like some reviews, and
462 00:46:39.290 ⇒ 00:46:41.409 Uttam: and we’ll just make sure everything is tracked
463 00:46:41.690 ⇒ 00:46:42.150 Hannah Wang: Okay.
464 00:46:42.150 ⇒ 00:46:56.219 Uttam: In in linear, and I think well, at some point, like again, we don’t have to meet every day, or just helps to even be able to have. Anne’s probably like and definitely has a lot more time. We can make sure that she she can work Async on stuff
465 00:46:56.390 ⇒ 00:46:56.840 Hannah Wang: Yeah.
466 00:46:58.560 ⇒ 00:46:59.620 Uttam: And then.
467 00:46:59.800 ⇒ 00:47:08.909 Uttam: yeah, we’ll start to do more. And then also, when we present to the company we can present how how our marketing efforts laddered up to some of the key. Okrs.
468 00:47:10.780 ⇒ 00:47:13.716 Uttam: right? So okay, let’s plan on that. So let me
469 00:47:14.580 ⇒ 00:47:20.440 Uttam: do you wanna try? I don’t know what. Let me see if I have any of those
470 00:47:20.440 ⇒ 00:47:22.549 Hannah Wang: Like, transfer it over to you
471 00:47:24.490 ⇒ 00:47:31.708 Uttam: Yeah, or maybe even, just like, maybe just like, cancel everything
472 00:47:32.170 ⇒ 00:47:32.710 Hannah Wang: Oh!
473 00:47:33.380 ⇒ 00:47:34.260 Uttam: I deleted.
474 00:47:34.260 ⇒ 00:47:36.580 Uttam: Okay, yeah. Just delete it.
475 00:47:37.410 ⇒ 00:47:42.290 Hannah Wang: Just the the design meeting right? The 30 min one at 10
476 00:47:42.290 ⇒ 00:47:45.120 Uttam: Weekly, the Weekly Designer Weekly Design Meeting
477 00:47:45.120 ⇒ 00:47:45.810 Hannah Wang: Yeah.
478 00:47:45.810 ⇒ 00:47:47.690 Uttam: Yeah, you could just delete that
479 00:47:47.690 ⇒ 00:47:48.360 Hannah Wang: All right.
480 00:47:48.360 ⇒ 00:47:51.670 Uttam: I’ll go ahead and own, Yeah.
481 00:47:52.110 ⇒ 00:47:59.029 Hannah Wang: Okay? And then do you want me to move the review session back or keep it? At that time
482 00:48:00.240 ⇒ 00:48:04.720 Uttam: no, I think that’s fine. I mean, as long as people on the team like I would just follow up
483 00:48:04.860 ⇒ 00:48:08.439 Uttam: with a couple of people on the team to make sure. Like as long as you get
484 00:48:09.060 ⇒ 00:48:13.099 Uttam: if you get can get like like a few more engineers on there. That would be great
485 00:48:15.550 ⇒ 00:48:16.640 Hannah Wang: Yeah, if you can.
486 00:48:17.450 ⇒ 00:48:19.698 Hannah Wang: Oh, the engineers on the review session
487 00:48:21.150 ⇒ 00:48:22.060 Uttam: Yes.
488 00:48:22.420 ⇒ 00:48:23.150 Hannah Wang: Like the week.
489 00:48:23.150 ⇒ 00:48:24.730 Uttam: The internal design, review, right.
490 00:48:24.730 ⇒ 00:48:25.650 Hannah Wang: -Oh
491 00:48:25.650 ⇒ 00:48:27.829 Uttam: Oh, you’re talking about the 1030 to 1130,
492 00:48:28.160 ⇒ 00:48:29.120 Hannah Wang: Yeah.
493 00:48:29.120 ⇒ 00:48:33.010 Uttam: Yeah, I mean, I I think we should just do that ad hoc, as we like have stuff
494 00:48:33.580 ⇒ 00:48:35.417 Hannah Wang: Okay, so should I delete that, too.
495 00:48:36.430 ⇒ 00:48:42.579 Hannah Wang: That’s fine. Okay, and I’ll I’ll just ping you then, or I don’t. I don’t know how the best way to
496 00:48:42.950 ⇒ 00:48:51.089 Hannah Wang: ad hoc, that I’ll just slack the design channel and be like, look at this. And then you guys can look at it on your own. I feel like that’s been working.
497 00:48:51.290 ⇒ 00:48:53.700 Hannah Wang: Okay, so far. Okay?
498 00:48:54.219 ⇒ 00:49:03.180 Hannah Wang: But yeah, the I don’t know. I feel like, maybe the engineers think it’s not a big deal, and should I just message them and be like, please come
499 00:49:03.180 ⇒ 00:49:07.919 Uttam: Oh, no, just message. No, I mean just message them. They’re just people are just lazy, just like
500 00:49:07.920 ⇒ 00:49:09.120 Hannah Wang: Okay. Okay.
501 00:49:09.120 ⇒ 00:49:16.009 Uttam: Just make sure they hit. Yes, because some of these guys will just they’ll like they would have wanted to come. And then, so yeah.
502 00:49:17.443 ⇒ 00:49:20.740 Hannah Wang: Alrighty cool sounds good.
503 00:49:20.890 ⇒ 00:49:24.620 Hannah Wang: Yeah, thanks for bearing with I don’t know all the confusion that
504 00:49:24.620 ⇒ 00:49:29.599 Uttam: No, no, no! And I’m not like disappointed or anything. I’m trying to make sure that we win right, and that
505 00:49:29.600 ⇒ 00:49:30.190 Hannah Wang: Yeah.
506 00:49:30.190 ⇒ 00:49:39.940 Uttam: We’re working on things that actually win for us like this isn’t. This is as much of like a I mean, the core thing is like, if I could pm, and sort of have everything set for everyone, it would work. But we are not.
507 00:49:40.260 ⇒ 00:49:49.359 Uttam: We’re not. You know. We’re not a huge company with like a huge design team, and we don’t have all the resources. So this is the these are the sort of trade offs and things we’ll have to consider
508 00:49:50.970 ⇒ 00:49:56.141 Uttam: right, and throwing another person in the mix, or whatever it doesn’t solve much
509 00:49:57.560 ⇒ 00:50:01.610 Uttam: and like, I think we can be so effective with the folks that we have right? So
510 00:50:03.140 ⇒ 00:50:07.599 Hannah Wang: Yeah, Perks of. It’s the growing pains, I guess.
511 00:50:07.600 ⇒ 00:50:08.920 Uttam: Yes, yes.
512 00:50:08.920 ⇒ 00:50:17.749 Hannah Wang: So alright. Sounds good. Yeah, I’ll delete all those meetings, and then we can run a like a such tomorrow morning data. Yeah.
513 00:50:19.420 ⇒ 00:50:20.420 Hannah Wang: alrighty.
514 00:50:20.420 ⇒ 00:50:20.860 Uttam: Perfect.
515 00:50:20.860 ⇒ 00:50:21.780 Uttam: Thank you so much.
516 00:50:21.780 ⇒ 00:50:24.250 Hannah Wang: Of course, have a good one.
517 00:50:24.510 ⇒ 00:50:25.280 Uttam: You too.