Meeting Title: Uttam <> Neil Date: 2024-05-30 Meeting participants: Neiloliver, Uttam Kumaran
WEBVTT
1 00:12:02.880 ⇒ 00:12:03.860 Uttam Kumaran: My friend.
2 00:12:05.300 ⇒ 00:12:05.760 neiloliver: It!
3 00:12:06.170 ⇒ 00:12:07.150 Uttam Kumaran: How are you?
4 00:12:07.594 ⇒ 00:12:10.065 Uttam Kumaran: But I’ll just say, Hi! I’m in. I’m in the car.
5 00:12:11.110 ⇒ 00:12:11.930 neiloliver: I’m
6 00:12:12.930 ⇒ 00:12:16.029 neiloliver: sat here trying to work. So it’s gonna be
7 00:12:17.110 ⇒ 00:12:20.200 neiloliver: just work is killing me.
8 00:12:20.340 ⇒ 00:12:22.943 Uttam Kumaran: Okay, well, tell me about I’m just gonna put you down. But
9 00:12:23.660 ⇒ 00:12:25.279 Uttam Kumaran: alright, tell me about it. What’s up?
10 00:12:25.750 ⇒ 00:12:26.959 Uttam Kumaran: What’s the latest.
11 00:12:28.177 ⇒ 00:12:36.223 neiloliver: Nothing like it’s. It’s all good like, really enjoying the job. Very, very, very, very difficult. But
12 00:12:36.860 ⇒ 00:12:37.740 neiloliver: no, it’s.
13 00:12:37.740 ⇒ 00:12:41.020 Uttam Kumaran: Right. Those, those, both those things can be true, you know, and that’s good.
14 00:12:41.340 ⇒ 00:12:42.170 neiloliver: Yeah.
15 00:12:42.330 ⇒ 00:12:45.346 neiloliver: yeah, yeah, extremely extremely difficult.
16 00:12:46.190 ⇒ 00:12:52.867 neiloliver: just lots on classic case of, like, you know, too much work, not enough people to do it.
17 00:12:53.650 ⇒ 00:12:55.380 neiloliver: we’re like
18 00:12:56.180 ⇒ 00:12:58.240 neiloliver: my my backlog.
19 00:12:58.340 ⇒ 00:13:02.080 neiloliver: for if I just take one of my teams
20 00:13:02.160 ⇒ 00:13:06.580 neiloliver: I have a backlog of 1,600 open Jira tickets.
21 00:13:06.580 ⇒ 00:13:08.030 Uttam Kumaran: Oh, my God.
22 00:13:08.220 ⇒ 00:13:10.690 Uttam Kumaran: yeah, dude, what is? What does that mean?
23 00:13:13.100 ⇒ 00:13:14.160 Uttam Kumaran: Holy shit?
24 00:13:14.160 ⇒ 00:13:15.260 neiloliver: Yeah.
25 00:13:15.960 ⇒ 00:13:20.660 neiloliver: yeah, and it’s impossible to get out to get out of it.
26 00:13:21.412 ⇒ 00:13:36.729 neiloliver: And then my design is sick. And I’m trying to do stuff my designer. So I’m having to design like all for this, basically everything, my life is about trying to create this vision deck at the moment.
27 00:13:37.187 ⇒ 00:13:42.325 neiloliver: Which effectively is like a 12 year robot a 12 year, 12 month. Robot.
28 00:13:43.810 ⇒ 00:13:52.310 neiloliver: I’m trying to like. I have to get all of the senior leadership on board with it. Which is much harder than you would imagine.
29 00:13:52.310 ⇒ 00:13:53.950 Uttam Kumaran: No, I imagine, yeah.
30 00:13:55.010 ⇒ 00:14:11.680 neiloliver: particularly being the new guy coming in. So that’s like every waking minute of my life. Pretty much is is trying to do this, and I sent out an early version about Friday, and it it didn’t land very well. One of the
31 00:14:13.850 ⇒ 00:14:16.100 neiloliver: One of the co-founders is just
32 00:14:17.681 ⇒ 00:14:20.389 neiloliver: difficult is, is not the word.
33 00:14:20.500 ⇒ 00:14:21.020 neiloliver: and.
34 00:14:21.020 ⇒ 00:14:21.710 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, hit.
35 00:14:22.490 ⇒ 00:14:24.106 neiloliver: But he’s just a dick.
36 00:14:24.430 ⇒ 00:14:25.280 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
37 00:14:26.470 ⇒ 00:14:27.887 neiloliver: There’s always one
38 00:14:28.360 ⇒ 00:14:28.790 Uttam Kumaran: Alright!
39 00:14:29.189 ⇒ 00:14:37.179 neiloliver: He just happens to be the person that like he’s the person that cares about what I do, and.
40 00:14:37.180 ⇒ 00:14:37.790 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
41 00:14:38.300 ⇒ 00:14:39.849 neiloliver: Like there are.
42 00:14:40.210 ⇒ 00:14:50.730 neiloliver: And that’s 7 project product managers think we’ve got 7 product managers, and I’m the only one that, like every single thing that I do feeds up to him. So it’s like
43 00:14:50.940 ⇒ 00:14:53.900 neiloliver: particularly difficult
44 00:14:54.130 ⇒ 00:14:56.340 neiloliver: cause. He is
45 00:14:56.460 ⇒ 00:15:00.529 neiloliver: honestly problematic. It just is the biggest understatement ever.
46 00:15:00.790 ⇒ 00:15:01.400 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
47 00:15:01.400 ⇒ 00:15:09.503 neiloliver: 90% of issues on the product side of of Sigma come down to him. So.
48 00:15:10.010 ⇒ 00:15:11.080 Uttam Kumaran: He’s a co-founder.
49 00:15:11.340 ⇒ 00:15:12.260 neiloliver: Yes.
50 00:15:12.866 ⇒ 00:15:13.473 Uttam Kumaran: Alright!
51 00:15:14.560 ⇒ 00:15:15.350 neiloliver: Yeah.
52 00:15:16.340 ⇒ 00:15:19.089 neiloliver: so that you know. See it on the board.
53 00:15:19.462 ⇒ 00:15:21.440 neiloliver: Not a lot that we can do.
54 00:15:22.270 ⇒ 00:15:23.000 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
55 00:15:23.720 ⇒ 00:15:25.039 Uttam Kumaran: Alright. How’s life?
56 00:15:25.550 ⇒ 00:15:30.727 neiloliver: It’s it’s good, it’s good, it it is all work right now.
57 00:15:32.050 ⇒ 00:15:33.400 neiloliver: so
58 00:15:34.060 ⇒ 00:15:45.892 neiloliver: yeah, just trying to get on top of things. Basically without this vision. It’s very hard to get anything done, because everyone’s like, Well, why are we doing this? And so like the vision, Doc, is like what you’re pointing to all the time.
59 00:15:47.050 ⇒ 00:15:52.520 neiloliver: And so that’s that’s difficult. I just have this backlog of.
60 00:15:52.790 ⇒ 00:15:56.840 neiloliver: I think I’ve got like 4 P. Ids that I’ve got a right fit that are like.
61 00:15:56.840 ⇒ 00:15:57.550 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
62 00:15:57.550 ⇒ 00:15:59.079 neiloliver: Are waiting on
63 00:15:59.100 ⇒ 00:16:01.411 neiloliver: to be able to actually do the work.
64 00:16:01.700 ⇒ 00:16:02.720 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
65 00:16:03.630 ⇒ 00:16:06.067 neiloliver: So yeah, hold on 2 seconds.
66 00:16:08.290 ⇒ 00:16:09.250 neiloliver: now, that’s done.
67 00:16:09.430 ⇒ 00:16:10.300 neiloliver: Melissa.
68 00:16:11.520 ⇒ 00:16:13.200 neiloliver: free, free with all
69 00:16:16.520 ⇒ 00:16:20.040 neiloliver: anytime. I don’t know if you can. You see, can you still see me.
70 00:16:21.322 ⇒ 00:16:23.380 Uttam Kumaran: Yes. Hold on one second.
71 00:16:23.380 ⇒ 00:16:24.767 neiloliver: I got it.
72 00:16:25.230 ⇒ 00:16:26.659 Uttam Kumaran: Oh wow!
73 00:16:29.930 ⇒ 00:16:31.809 neiloliver: In, in A, in a ranges.
74 00:16:32.070 ⇒ 00:16:33.910 Uttam Kumaran: Oh, let’s go!
75 00:16:33.910 ⇒ 00:16:36.500 neiloliver: Yeah, so this is
76 00:16:36.720 ⇒ 00:16:38.249 neiloliver: is my little puppy.
77 00:16:38.800 ⇒ 00:16:42.019 Uttam Kumaran: I remember when you when you like, when she’s so small, right.
78 00:16:42.395 ⇒ 00:16:45.020 neiloliver: Yeah. She’s big now. She’s huge.
79 00:16:45.020 ⇒ 00:16:45.790 Uttam Kumaran: Wow!
80 00:16:46.740 ⇒ 00:16:51.109 neiloliver: She was meant to be meant to be small, but she ended up being really big.
81 00:16:51.110 ⇒ 00:16:56.074 Uttam Kumaran: It’s like, you know how sometimes you get those like bunnies that are like end of being massive. She looks like that.
82 00:16:56.300 ⇒ 00:17:00.112 neiloliver: Yeah, yeah, yeah, she should have literally been half that size. So.
83 00:17:00.856 ⇒ 00:17:02.560 Uttam Kumaran: She looks very happy.
84 00:17:04.450 ⇒ 00:17:07.840 neiloliver: Yeah, she’s good. You taking her out for a walk?
85 00:17:08.440 ⇒ 00:17:12.839 neiloliver: No, no, not since lunch. Alright, bye, bye.
86 00:17:14.680 ⇒ 00:17:15.660 neiloliver: But
87 00:17:16.040 ⇒ 00:17:19.239 neiloliver: yeah, like I said, life is. Life is kind of
88 00:17:21.134 ⇒ 00:17:25.250 neiloliver: I’m in San Francisco one week every month. So that’s all.
89 00:17:25.250 ⇒ 00:17:25.710 Uttam Kumaran: How’s that?
90 00:17:26.014 ⇒ 00:17:26.319 neiloliver: And
91 00:17:26.520 ⇒ 00:17:31.459 neiloliver: I I mean it’s it’s nice that it’s all paid for, and and it’s kind of fun, but it’s
92 00:17:32.006 ⇒ 00:17:35.548 neiloliver: like I say so much work.
93 00:17:37.070 ⇒ 00:17:39.600 neiloliver: I love what the job should be.
94 00:17:40.420 ⇒ 00:17:41.080 Uttam Kumaran: So, okay.
95 00:17:41.610 ⇒ 00:17:43.399 neiloliver: Which is, which is great.
96 00:17:44.020 ⇒ 00:17:44.990 neiloliver: Okay.
97 00:17:45.710 ⇒ 00:17:51.560 neiloliver: it’s you know, it’s it’s learning the ropes a bit. Yeah, I’ve had
98 00:17:51.620 ⇒ 00:17:54.879 neiloliver: quite a few battles with my team.
99 00:17:55.050 ⇒ 00:17:56.450 neiloliver: which has been
100 00:18:00.140 ⇒ 00:18:03.789 neiloliver: hard for me, coming in and never having done the job before.
101 00:18:04.410 ⇒ 00:18:05.210 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
102 00:18:05.210 ⇒ 00:18:11.569 neiloliver: To come in and effectively the the person that was there before me.
103 00:18:11.860 ⇒ 00:18:22.080 neiloliver: I I think, the biggest like she she was fired but she seemed to be good at everything, apart from like actually having an opinion that she wants to stand by.
104 00:18:22.390 ⇒ 00:18:23.670 neiloliver: So
105 00:18:24.340 ⇒ 00:18:31.797 neiloliver: it means the rest of the team, and particularly the engineering manager, was effectively doing a lot of the
106 00:18:32.190 ⇒ 00:18:33.380 Uttam Kumaran: Product decisions.
107 00:18:33.380 ⇒ 00:18:34.050 neiloliver: Yeah.
108 00:18:34.280 ⇒ 00:18:45.399 neiloliver: And so they’re very used to that right now. And it’s not that I don’t want them to have like input, and collaboration with it. But, like the engineering manager particularly, is like
109 00:18:45.830 ⇒ 00:18:54.459 neiloliver: going off and doing stuff. And I’m like, no, that’s that’s not how this works like she’s she’s like assigning people tasks that are not on the roadmap, and it’s.
110 00:18:54.460 ⇒ 00:18:55.210 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
111 00:18:55.210 ⇒ 00:18:57.644 neiloliver: That’s not. That’s not your role.
112 00:18:58.050 ⇒ 00:19:02.169 Uttam Kumaran: I mean, I think what you what basically like, you just have to talk to her a lot like.
113 00:19:02.630 ⇒ 00:19:05.540 Uttam Kumaran: you know, just have meetings with her and like, make sure that
114 00:19:05.840 ⇒ 00:19:11.360 Uttam Kumaran: whatever she wants she can get a couple of those and then dude. The the problem with product is like.
115 00:19:11.550 ⇒ 00:19:17.199 Uttam Kumaran: you’re you’re gonna be, you’re you’re gonna be hated, no matter what you do. So don’t worry too much about that
116 00:19:17.250 ⇒ 00:19:21.489 Uttam Kumaran: worry about. Like most people respecting your decision
117 00:19:21.900 ⇒ 00:19:23.689 Uttam Kumaran: and just like
118 00:19:24.070 ⇒ 00:19:31.299 Uttam Kumaran: being able to like kind of have, like good consistency. Because you’re never gonna you’re people are always gonna piss off you. This is like what this job is about.
119 00:19:31.550 ⇒ 00:19:52.380 neiloliver: Yeah, yeah, I think that like genuinely, from what I’ve heard like, that was the downfall of the last person I’ve seen all of her documentation stuff. All looks really good. But it was a case of like she would you know, put an idea out there, and particularly the co-founder would be like, I don’t think we should do that, and she’ll go. Okay, great. We’ll we’ll we won’t do that then.
120 00:19:52.550 ⇒ 00:20:03.419 neiloliver: and it’s like that’s like your job is to be that front person and stand up and fight for these things because you’ve done the research. And you believe in what you’re trying to sell.
121 00:20:03.940 ⇒ 00:20:04.680 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
122 00:20:04.820 ⇒ 00:20:07.420 neiloliver: So I’m coming in and making
123 00:20:07.460 ⇒ 00:20:09.426 neiloliver: definitely making some enemies.
124 00:20:11.060 ⇒ 00:20:12.800 Uttam Kumaran: It happens like the thing is like
125 00:20:12.820 ⇒ 00:20:17.000 Uttam Kumaran: at the end of the day, especially the size company. You are like. Most people just want to come and do work.
126 00:20:17.350 ⇒ 00:20:19.470 Uttam Kumaran: There’s some there’ll be some lingering like.
127 00:20:19.890 ⇒ 00:20:23.830 Uttam Kumaran: you know, people want to like carve their own, or like make the product their own. But
128 00:20:25.400 ⇒ 00:20:26.740 Uttam Kumaran: certainly, like.
129 00:20:26.960 ⇒ 00:20:28.980 Uttam Kumaran: I think you can just make sure that
130 00:20:29.240 ⇒ 00:20:32.500 Uttam Kumaran: you do your job, and that you do consistently. And
131 00:20:32.860 ⇒ 00:20:36.549 Uttam Kumaran: product is fucking really hard. You know, it’s a really thankless job like.
132 00:20:37.360 ⇒ 00:20:37.920 neiloliver: Yeah.
133 00:20:38.180 ⇒ 00:20:40.271 neiloliver: my job is saying no to people.
134 00:20:40.570 ⇒ 00:20:41.780 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, yeah.
135 00:20:42.580 ⇒ 00:20:43.440 Uttam Kumaran: it’s not.
136 00:20:43.950 ⇒ 00:20:45.399 Uttam Kumaran: That’s what that is.
137 00:20:46.060 ⇒ 00:21:02.049 neiloliver: It’s like, I say, it’s like, it’s AI. It’s good. I’m I’m enjoying it. It’s just I need time to breathe. I think in like 6 months I would have caught up, and then it will be much more enjoyable. But right now.
138 00:21:02.050 ⇒ 00:21:07.390 Uttam Kumaran: Knowing knowing you, I mean. I don’t know. We’ll see you like the work, though. Dude I’m you know. You know that at all.
139 00:21:07.390 ⇒ 00:21:16.000 neiloliver: I I do but like the guy that sat next to me. So there’s only 2 product managers like me and one of in New York.
140 00:21:16.366 ⇒ 00:21:24.859 neiloliver: And I speak to him, and he’s working on like Q. 4 prds, and bits of that, and that’s like how it should be, and.
141 00:21:24.860 ⇒ 00:21:25.969 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I agree.
142 00:21:25.970 ⇒ 00:21:30.399 neiloliver: Rumbling for people being like, we need to start this work like, where’s the Prd.
143 00:21:31.060 ⇒ 00:21:32.200 neiloliver: and.
144 00:21:32.640 ⇒ 00:21:38.719 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, you’re you’re you’re in a mix of like long term and short term, because you have to plan the current stuff and also think like
145 00:21:38.920 ⇒ 00:21:40.659 Uttam Kumaran: 2 months, 3 months, 4 months.
146 00:21:41.020 ⇒ 00:22:00.029 Uttam Kumaran: I mean, one thing is like, if you have strong engineering partners, they you have to spend less time backlog planning like that. That’s the thing that like find a couple of people who you can trust. I mean, I’m sure you’re doing all these things. But like, find the people you can trust, who have respect from the people that you need to work, and then work with them.
147 00:22:00.270 ⇒ 00:22:00.900 neiloliver: And then.
148 00:22:00.900 ⇒ 00:22:04.319 Uttam Kumaran: I took a lot of that on, but it was really hard, like you have to.
149 00:22:04.400 ⇒ 00:22:07.529 Uttam Kumaran: You have to partner with some people and like, give them some of that
150 00:22:07.540 ⇒ 00:22:09.700 Uttam Kumaran: agency and responsibility to like.
151 00:22:09.940 ⇒ 00:22:17.970 Uttam Kumaran: own some of the planning process, or own some of the grooming, or even just run, even just having them run those meetings, and you being there is a is a weight off, you know.
152 00:22:17.970 ⇒ 00:22:35.289 neiloliver: Oh, yeah, yeah. And my, my engineering manager does that. And I haven’t tried to like she just she still goes off on a tangent. I I just feel like I’m kind of bringing the team in like even even today.
153 00:22:37.050 ⇒ 00:22:41.860 neiloliver: they, it was like a classic case of like we’re trying to put in this feature.
154 00:22:41.950 ⇒ 00:23:04.979 neiloliver: And they’re like, Oh, yeah, well, but we also wanted to be able to do like this other thing which is like pulling us away from the core of what we’re trying to put out. And I’m like there is no evidence. There’s no request. There’s no Jira ticket. There’s no anything for the other thing that you’re talking about, and all that’s gonna do is complicate things. Extend the scope and delay us getting out like what we’re trying to get out.
155 00:23:05.510 ⇒ 00:23:06.020 neiloliver: Yeah.
156 00:23:07.000 ⇒ 00:23:11.210 neiloliver: But that that kind of scope group seems to happen a lot.
157 00:23:11.210 ⇒ 00:23:18.050 Uttam Kumaran: I mean, what what you have to do is you have to say, oh, my God, it’s a great idea. Thank you so much. Let me scope it out and put in the backlog, and I’ll
158 00:23:18.060 ⇒ 00:23:19.979 Uttam Kumaran: host a meeting about in and
159 00:23:20.420 ⇒ 00:23:21.279 Uttam Kumaran: got it.
160 00:23:21.280 ⇒ 00:23:30.100 neiloliver: It’s because they’re trying to. We actually have a massive, in fact, we’re in the middle of a massive issue. Because of this.
161 00:23:30.230 ⇒ 00:23:31.270 neiloliver: It’s
162 00:23:33.190 ⇒ 00:23:47.357 neiloliver: It’s engineers trying to be helpful, like, genuinely like, like truly, from a brilliant place, trying to be helpful, doing that thing of like, oh, while I’m here doing this thing. We could also do this other thing.
163 00:23:47.730 ⇒ 00:23:48.769 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
164 00:23:48.770 ⇒ 00:24:03.000 neiloliver: They, massively. I can’t even tell you how much the another engineering team did one of those. Oh, while we’re here, we can just do this extra thing, and they have
165 00:24:03.220 ⇒ 00:24:05.820 neiloliver: fuck something up so royally
166 00:24:05.870 ⇒ 00:24:09.930 neiloliver: that it may cost us about 6 months worth of work.
167 00:24:10.790 ⇒ 00:24:11.490 Uttam Kumaran: Ock.
168 00:24:12.220 ⇒ 00:24:13.100 neiloliver: Because.
169 00:24:13.100 ⇒ 00:24:13.929 Uttam Kumaran: That’s horrible!
170 00:24:13.930 ⇒ 00:24:16.700 neiloliver: What they did was
171 00:24:17.050 ⇒ 00:24:19.470 neiloliver: made it seem like
172 00:24:21.730 ⇒ 00:24:22.420 neiloliver: It’s
173 00:24:23.087 ⇒ 00:24:32.200 neiloliver: they made it seem like we could offer something that we don’t, and in order to like. Now offer that. It’s like a huge amount of work.
174 00:24:35.810 ⇒ 00:24:41.397 neiloliver: And it was such a such a small oversight. Effectively we we have a feature
175 00:24:42.020 ⇒ 00:24:45.179 neiloliver: really hard to describe what it is.
176 00:24:46.820 ⇒ 00:24:48.659 neiloliver: The feature is called bookmarks.
177 00:24:49.030 ⇒ 00:24:54.179 neiloliver: So being able to effectively save like the filters and stuff that you’ve got on a workbook.
178 00:24:54.720 ⇒ 00:25:03.369 neiloliver: and when they created, when the team that did bookmarks when they created that they were like. Oh, we can add this to exports.
179 00:25:03.590 ⇒ 00:25:04.290 neiloliver: so that you.
180 00:25:04.290 ⇒ 00:25:05.299 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
181 00:25:05.300 ⇒ 00:25:07.160 neiloliver: Former provided bookmark.
182 00:25:07.510 ⇒ 00:25:20.591 neiloliver: Now that works for 2 of the 4 formats because of the way that like exports work in different ways, depending on. If it’s a data format, or if it’s a
183 00:25:21.480 ⇒ 00:25:22.940 neiloliver: a Pdf.
184 00:25:23.550 ⇒ 00:25:26.459 neiloliver: that team didn’t know that. So they put it in.
185 00:25:27.270 ⇒ 00:25:29.129 neiloliver: Oh, I’ve have. I lost you.
186 00:25:31.310 ⇒ 00:25:32.769 Uttam Kumaran: I’m here. I’m here. I can see you.
187 00:25:34.590 ⇒ 00:25:38.020 neiloliver: Yeah. So they they put in all of the options
188 00:25:39.310 ⇒ 00:25:49.540 neiloliver: and huge clients did like really big training and stuff on it. And then it turned out that we can’t actually support those. Like all of those options, we can only support 2 of them.
189 00:25:51.420 ⇒ 00:25:52.260 Uttam Kumaran: Wow.
190 00:25:52.940 ⇒ 00:25:53.910 Uttam Kumaran: yeah.
191 00:25:56.360 ⇒ 00:25:59.089 Uttam Kumaran: But the company is doing really well, right? That’s what I heard.
192 00:26:03.580 ⇒ 00:26:07.230 neiloliver: yeah, companies did. Amazing. I just raised series day.
193 00:26:08.330 ⇒ 00:26:09.060 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
194 00:26:10.655 ⇒ 00:26:13.280 neiloliver: Yeah, 250 million. Seriously.
195 00:26:13.660 ⇒ 00:26:15.929 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I mean, not bad.
196 00:26:17.190 ⇒ 00:26:21.039 neiloliver: That’s I mean, that’s that’s pretty great. 50 million of us.
197 00:26:22.300 ⇒ 00:26:25.480 Uttam Kumaran: I saw that. Well, that’s that was kind of the big thing was like holy shit.
198 00:26:26.130 ⇒ 00:26:30.650 Uttam Kumaran: Sounds like it disinvesting in a bunch of people recently. So I I saw that you guys are on a list.
199 00:26:30.920 ⇒ 00:26:36.609 neiloliver: Yeah, we are. We are now snowflakes preferred bi provider. So all of their sales.
200 00:26:36.610 ⇒ 00:26:38.120 Uttam Kumaran: Oh, let’s go!
201 00:26:38.120 ⇒ 00:26:42.079 neiloliver: Our like at pushing school, which is huge.
202 00:26:43.750 ⇒ 00:26:45.200 Uttam Kumaran: I mean, that’s what I’m trying to be.
203 00:26:45.610 ⇒ 00:26:47.330 Uttam Kumaran: except the implementation partner.
204 00:26:48.030 ⇒ 00:26:48.910 neiloliver: Yeah.
205 00:26:49.030 ⇒ 00:26:51.680 neiloliver: that’s ha a hard one to get for Snowflake.
206 00:26:52.480 ⇒ 00:26:53.589 Uttam Kumaran: It’s hard, it’s hard.
207 00:26:54.290 ⇒ 00:26:56.930 Uttam Kumaran: but there’s a lot of people that do that right. But
208 00:26:59.080 ⇒ 00:27:04.019 Uttam Kumaran: Sigma, I think, is like the next, pretty much the biggest one behind looker and tableau.
209 00:27:04.990 ⇒ 00:27:05.950 neiloliver: Yes, right
210 00:27:07.023 ⇒ 00:27:07.846 neiloliver: no
211 00:27:09.810 ⇒ 00:27:10.820 Uttam Kumaran: And Rbi.
212 00:27:10.820 ⇒ 00:27:16.449 neiloliver: Yeah, power bi and tableau look is actually like so small in comparison.
213 00:27:19.070 ⇒ 00:27:19.990 Uttam Kumaran: Never there.
214 00:27:21.850 ⇒ 00:27:22.700 Uttam Kumaran: then.
215 00:27:23.030 ⇒ 00:27:23.380 neiloliver: I could.
216 00:27:23.380 ⇒ 00:27:24.069 Uttam Kumaran: Know that.
217 00:27:24.380 ⇒ 00:27:26.310 neiloliver: How’s how’s everything with you?
218 00:27:28.350 ⇒ 00:27:32.929 Uttam Kumaran: Good. Yeah. My thing seems to be stairs. Give me one second.
219 00:27:39.680 ⇒ 00:27:41.239 Uttam Kumaran: stuff is good man.
220 00:27:42.720 ⇒ 00:27:46.449 Uttam Kumaran: Don’t even know where to where to start like the team was a little bit bigger.
221 00:27:46.890 ⇒ 00:27:49.430 Uttam Kumaran: You have a couple more contracts.
222 00:27:50.080 ⇒ 00:27:53.069 Uttam Kumaran: I hired a project manager which was like a big.
223 00:27:53.960 ⇒ 00:27:55.819 Uttam Kumaran: big big like unlock.
224 00:27:56.540 ⇒ 00:27:58.339 Uttam Kumaran: He started like last week.
225 00:27:58.730 ⇒ 00:28:02.889 Uttam Kumaran: and it’s taking a lot off my plate like, just sent his 1st client update today.
226 00:28:03.430 ⇒ 00:28:05.718 Uttam Kumaran: And like it was really great
227 00:28:07.170 ⇒ 00:28:11.770 Uttam Kumaran: so that’s nice. And he’s like kind of on the same pages of me as like trying to figure out
228 00:28:12.240 ⇒ 00:28:13.140 Uttam Kumaran: like
229 00:28:13.620 ⇒ 00:28:18.809 Uttam Kumaran: trying to figure out, how do you streamline communication? Make sure engineers are working on the right thing stuff like that. So
230 00:28:19.374 ⇒ 00:28:20.990 Uttam Kumaran: it’s been really nice.
231 00:28:21.700 ⇒ 00:28:27.769 Uttam Kumaran: Then what else? Austin’s been really nice. The business has been only thing that I’ve been really, really focused on. So
232 00:28:28.795 ⇒ 00:28:30.809 Uttam Kumaran: it’s taken a lot of energy
233 00:28:30.960 ⇒ 00:28:33.320 Uttam Kumaran: to get at this place, but
234 00:28:34.160 ⇒ 00:28:37.629 Uttam Kumaran: I don’t know. Stuff’s going well, like it’s surprisingly going
235 00:28:37.940 ⇒ 00:28:41.190 Uttam Kumaran: decent hiring this person.
236 00:28:41.400 ⇒ 00:28:45.790 Uttam Kumaran: It’s great cause. Now, I almost have like someone I could talk to at like a high level for the company.
237 00:28:45.970 ⇒ 00:28:47.881 Uttam Kumaran: and kind of like, get me out of
238 00:28:48.920 ⇒ 00:28:50.570 Uttam Kumaran: just getting me out of like
239 00:28:50.980 ⇒ 00:28:54.789 Uttam Kumaran: talking to nobody, and then having to make a lot of like high level decisions, and then also
240 00:28:54.890 ⇒ 00:28:56.990 Uttam Kumaran: having to go do sales and everything. So
241 00:28:57.390 ⇒ 00:29:03.229 Uttam Kumaran: trying to basically have the machine run, and then I can. I still do some engineering stuff, and that’s fine. But
242 00:29:04.004 ⇒ 00:29:05.779 Uttam Kumaran: the communication and stuff
243 00:29:06.190 ⇒ 00:29:12.870 Uttam Kumaran: like I’m more of a person we’re like, just throw me where you need a happy face, and like I’m schmoozing, and I’ll be there.
244 00:29:13.140 ⇒ 00:29:18.839 Uttam Kumaran: But, like otherwise, like the weekly communication, the backlog grooming stuff like that, like, I really can’t
245 00:29:18.920 ⇒ 00:29:21.190 Uttam Kumaran: spend a ton of time on anymore. So.
246 00:29:21.560 ⇒ 00:29:25.329 neiloliver: No, it said, like that classic case of just thinking
247 00:29:25.470 ⇒ 00:29:28.760 neiloliver: when you set yourself an hourly rate
248 00:29:29.090 ⇒ 00:29:32.979 neiloliver: like, would you want that person if you’re paying somebody else that hourly rate. Would you want them.
249 00:29:32.980 ⇒ 00:29:48.149 Uttam Kumaran: No, I know. Well, I actually think a lot about you call. We could talk to you like months ago, and I called you, and I asked you like, what a what are good margin this business, and you’re really honest with me. And I I think about that conversation all the time like exactly about what you said about like
250 00:29:48.230 ⇒ 00:29:53.670 Uttam Kumaran: whatever you’re charging charge more like. Whatever you think it is, you need more. And like I’ve been.
251 00:29:53.940 ⇒ 00:30:03.749 Uttam Kumaran: you know it’s been hard to enact some of those changes. But I’ve been thinking a lot about that. And also just like, How do I make sure that, like I’m doing stuff stream like the clients have a place to go for everything
252 00:30:03.780 ⇒ 00:30:13.609 Uttam Kumaran: we’re make. We’re at least communicating on a recurring schedule. We’re talking everybody like most. This business, I really realize, is just like getting facetime, like just making sure that
253 00:30:13.650 ⇒ 00:30:17.229 Uttam Kumaran: we have scheduled facetime with everybody, especially me, because
254 00:30:17.380 ⇒ 00:30:25.932 Uttam Kumaran: the conversations kind of go. Well, if I’m just there riffing. And I’m able to talk to people about like what we’re planning on doing and things like that. So that’s kind of like what I
255 00:30:26.460 ⇒ 00:30:27.840 Uttam Kumaran: kind of like what I hope
256 00:30:28.240 ⇒ 00:30:30.999 Uttam Kumaran: it’s going now and then we have. We have now have
257 00:30:32.110 ⇒ 00:30:45.809 Uttam Kumaran: We have 5 people, and then one project manager. And then I have 4 interns starting next week that I’m kind of just gonna toss like a bunch of projects at, and hopefully, some of them convert to like full time.
258 00:30:46.230 ⇒ 00:30:46.710 neiloliver: Nice.
259 00:30:49.309 ⇒ 00:30:53.779 Uttam Kumaran: So yeah, it’s like, I have. Have you been? Have you heard of real real data?
260 00:30:53.970 ⇒ 00:30:54.760 neiloliver: No.
261 00:30:54.760 ⇒ 00:31:01.160 Uttam Kumaran: It’s another bi tool. I’ve been working with them, their tools really good, and I signed a deal with them to kind of get some kickbacks.
262 00:31:02.850 ⇒ 00:31:05.410 Uttam Kumaran: I we’ve been working with evidence a little bit
263 00:31:05.510 ⇒ 00:31:07.000 Uttam Kumaran: with light dash.
264 00:31:07.560 ⇒ 00:31:08.180 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
265 00:31:08.180 ⇒ 00:31:09.229 neiloliver: Yeah, my, gosh.
266 00:31:09.540 ⇒ 00:31:12.040 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I’m in still. Snowflake foxtrain stuff.
267 00:31:15.140 ⇒ 00:31:17.712 Uttam Kumaran: yeah, it’s good. You know. It’s the usual. It’s just
268 00:31:18.250 ⇒ 00:31:25.810 Uttam Kumaran: I’m just trying to get better at like. Okay, we now we’re doing. I’m pretty much stock, all of our client meetings on Thursday.
269 00:31:25.870 ⇒ 00:31:31.620 Uttam Kumaran: Then we do planning on Friday for the next week. And then Monday people can come in and start working. Basically.
270 00:31:32.016 ⇒ 00:31:36.300 Uttam Kumaran: I’m still having some issues with engineers where it’s like they’re not
271 00:31:36.840 ⇒ 00:31:42.889 Uttam Kumaran: respecting due dates, some of them. And they’re just like, think, this is like fucking. You’re an internal team, and you can just like
272 00:31:43.050 ⇒ 00:31:45.706 Uttam Kumaran: blame the product manager.
273 00:31:47.351 ⇒ 00:31:52.400 Uttam Kumaran: But it’s okay. Either they work out or we fire them like, I don’t open.
274 00:31:52.670 ⇒ 00:31:54.170 Uttam Kumaran: That’s that’s it.
275 00:31:55.390 ⇒ 00:32:02.490 Uttam Kumaran: so stuff’s been good. I think the next kind of challenge for me is like trying to get a reliable pipeline. But revenue wise we’ve had like
276 00:32:02.900 ⇒ 00:32:05.690 Uttam Kumaran: back to back like growth in the last 3 months.
277 00:32:07.040 ⇒ 00:32:10.145 Uttam Kumaran: you know, like incremental, but like inching better. And
278 00:32:10.620 ⇒ 00:32:16.469 Uttam Kumaran: all of our clients are very happy with the work that we do, and there’s a lot of opportunity. Still, out there, like I’m seeing
279 00:32:16.660 ⇒ 00:32:20.020 Uttam Kumaran: I’m seeing nothing but more clients pop up that need this sort of stuff.
280 00:32:20.820 ⇒ 00:32:22.080 Uttam Kumaran: So
281 00:32:22.130 ⇒ 00:32:36.330 Uttam Kumaran: the next challenge is, gonna be like, how do I reliably engineer like a sales pipeline? But you know I’m getting closer to being able to get myself out of the engineering like every day, and mainly my piece hopefully, is just like as a product manager. Being like
282 00:32:36.640 ⇒ 00:32:38.999 Uttam Kumaran: this is kind of like how we should architect this
283 00:32:39.020 ⇒ 00:32:57.898 Uttam Kumaran: and like helping the project manager think about tickets, or like who should work on what? And then hopefully taking on one or 2 things and then basically focusing the rest of my time on sales, and ideally like not working 12 HA day like that would be great to to do, and hopefully make a little bit more money and get back on health insurance stuff like that. So
284 00:32:58.430 ⇒ 00:33:01.300 neiloliver: Yeah, it’s it’s it’s a hard one.
285 00:33:02.340 ⇒ 00:33:04.639 Uttam Kumaran: Things end up with with like data culture.
286 00:33:06.819 ⇒ 00:33:26.010 neiloliver: Like, I think it’s going okay. I mean, like, Maurice is still there. Selina managed to close a few of the proctor and gamble companies that she had like said that she was going to try and close, so I think that’s kind of kept them afloat. But they I don’t think that they’re like rapidly growing. I think it’s
287 00:33:26.070 ⇒ 00:33:28.640 neiloliver: similar to when I was there. So.
288 00:33:28.640 ⇒ 00:33:29.300 Uttam Kumaran: Okay.
289 00:33:30.510 ⇒ 00:33:31.160 neiloliver: Fine.
290 00:33:31.570 ⇒ 00:33:32.170 Uttam Kumaran: Fine.
291 00:33:32.950 ⇒ 00:33:37.600 Uttam Kumaran: Everyone keeps asking me a prequel. I’m like I had no idea. I don’t know how that’s doing, either.
292 00:33:39.020 ⇒ 00:33:41.270 neiloliver: I I def I don’t think well.
293 00:33:41.640 ⇒ 00:33:42.310 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
294 00:33:43.200 ⇒ 00:33:44.050 neiloliver: No, I don’t think.
295 00:33:44.050 ⇒ 00:33:44.710 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
296 00:33:44.850 ⇒ 00:33:45.870 Uttam Kumaran: yeah.
297 00:33:47.050 ⇒ 00:33:47.970 neiloliver: But
298 00:33:48.970 ⇒ 00:33:57.619 neiloliver: no sales. Sales is the big bit like that’s where you gotta focus it. That will for a while. That will be your
299 00:33:59.580 ⇒ 00:34:01.369 neiloliver: barrier to growth.
300 00:34:02.166 ⇒ 00:34:04.600 neiloliver: Like, I say, always like
301 00:34:05.540 ⇒ 00:34:18.600 neiloliver: data culture never got to the point where we were worried about like, how else we scale and what what other like systems we need around us. It was always just like, Can you really pull in like, how many clients would it take
302 00:34:18.650 ⇒ 00:34:27.219 neiloliver: for you to start going. Oh, shit like I. I now need extra members of like Admin staff, or like additional tools. You probably
303 00:34:27.429 ⇒ 00:34:35.980 neiloliver: ice already. You might need more members of staff like more engineers and bits of that. But it’s stuff you can go. You can solve that bit easy.
304 00:34:36.580 ⇒ 00:34:37.320 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
305 00:34:37.320 ⇒ 00:34:39.870 neiloliver: Getting getting the people in the door.
306 00:34:40.030 ⇒ 00:34:42.240 neiloliver: That’s that’s the real skill bit.
307 00:34:42.600 ⇒ 00:34:44.710 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, that’s what I’m like.
308 00:34:44.860 ⇒ 00:34:46.209 Uttam Kumaran: That’s why I’m
309 00:34:46.440 ⇒ 00:34:47.679 Uttam Kumaran: trying to.
310 00:34:48.050 ⇒ 00:34:54.989 Uttam Kumaran: I mean, getting engineers is also like getting great engineers and making sure that they work in a client. Service. Environment is is also tough.
311 00:34:55.179 ⇒ 00:35:00.669 Uttam Kumaran: But also, like, I think, some of the work we do, we’re streamlining. And we’re really, it’s really impactful stuff. So
312 00:35:00.720 ⇒ 00:35:02.489 Uttam Kumaran: as long as we can continue to
313 00:35:02.600 ⇒ 00:35:05.340 Uttam Kumaran: deliver, then people don’t really shut us off right.
314 00:35:05.340 ⇒ 00:35:07.280 neiloliver: Now you’ll be like
315 00:35:07.320 ⇒ 00:35:12.999 neiloliver: getting getting them within. The door is the hardest bit the other one is
316 00:35:13.190 ⇒ 00:35:20.340 neiloliver: going back to to what we were saying about like pricing a bit, so that it’s very interesting.
317 00:35:20.470 ⇒ 00:35:24.389 neiloliver: I think all of us lock ourselves into
318 00:35:24.600 ⇒ 00:35:32.139 neiloliver: like this is what we charge, and this is what we do, and I always encourage people to think buckload bigger.
319 00:35:32.310 ⇒ 00:35:32.940 neiloliver: But and.
320 00:35:32.940 ⇒ 00:35:38.290 Uttam Kumaran: In terms of like they they thought they like only had one price, and they weren’t willing to like compromise, or like well.
321 00:35:38.290 ⇒ 00:35:42.639 neiloliver: I’m just no more just thinking about charging more.
322 00:35:43.100 ⇒ 00:35:43.940 Uttam Kumaran: Oh, okay. Okay.
323 00:35:43.940 ⇒ 00:35:45.790 neiloliver: Charging like
324 00:35:46.533 ⇒ 00:35:57.200 neiloliver: it’s it’s a classic thing in smaller consultancies. The idea that if you doubled your price but lost half your clients, then what you actually did was gain half your time back.
325 00:35:57.691 ⇒ 00:36:00.260 neiloliver: That’s that’s what you did, and you’ve gone.
326 00:36:00.260 ⇒ 00:36:15.339 Uttam Kumaran: But it’s so tough dude, because, like I like, there’s some people I’m talking to. I’m like fuck. There’d be a great logo, and I’m gonna ask for incremented like every place I go, I try to ask for like anywhere from 25 to 50 bucks more than we previously charge our previous highest rate.
327 00:36:15.700 ⇒ 00:36:16.800 neiloliver: So.
328 00:36:17.460 ⇒ 00:36:19.900 Uttam Kumaran: And I’ve been like slowly getting better at that. But.
329 00:36:20.240 ⇒ 00:36:22.220 neiloliver: To give you an idea.
330 00:36:23.130 ⇒ 00:36:28.149 neiloliver: Well, what would you say is, is a good size
331 00:36:28.570 ⇒ 00:36:31.670 neiloliver: account for segment.
332 00:36:35.290 ⇒ 00:36:37.220 neiloliver: You know the pricing on this is.
333 00:36:37.460 ⇒ 00:36:39.619 Uttam Kumaran: How much is? How much is sigma per seat.
334 00:36:40.990 ⇒ 00:36:42.370 neiloliver: The the
335 00:36:42.430 ⇒ 00:36:49.540 neiloliver: the base. It’s about $1,000 the same. But this base fee of this negotiable, but usually around 20.
336 00:36:50.150 ⇒ 00:36:53.439 Uttam Kumaran: And you’re saying what’s a like a what’s a good monthly fee.
337 00:36:53.750 ⇒ 00:36:57.379 neiloliver: Like, yeah or yearly. So that’s that’s yearly.
338 00:36:57.380 ⇒ 00:37:00.540 Uttam Kumaran: I mean, probably like at least 250 K.
339 00:37:00.960 ⇒ 00:37:17.019 neiloliver: Yeah. So for me, I was always like, oh, because the people that we dealt with a a Sigma. They were 25 K accounts, our biggest ever Snowflake account. Sorry Sigma account was, I think, 40 or 45 K, so I was like, that’s that was a big account to us.
340 00:37:17.020 ⇒ 00:37:20.410 Uttam Kumaran: I don’t know for a sigma. Y’all are. The counts are fucking crazy.
341 00:37:20.410 ⇒ 00:37:23.290 neiloliver: We. We’ve got accounts of 1.6 million like.
342 00:37:23.290 ⇒ 00:37:23.830 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
343 00:37:24.010 ⇒ 00:37:26.269 neiloliver: That like every year over, and when you.
344 00:37:26.270 ⇒ 00:37:29.991 Uttam Kumaran: So you’re just you’re you’re more saying like, there’s fucking money out there for this.
345 00:37:30.240 ⇒ 00:37:38.109 neiloliver: Exactly that like, who who are you trying to work with? The problem is that we were trying to work with people that 45 K. Is a lot of money.
346 00:37:38.780 ⇒ 00:37:39.660 neiloliver: All 20.
347 00:37:39.660 ⇒ 00:37:40.860 Uttam Kumaran: But then, so is your.
348 00:37:40.860 ⇒ 00:37:41.430 neiloliver: Is, your.
349 00:37:41.732 ⇒ 00:37:42.940 Uttam Kumaran: Pitch to say like.
350 00:37:43.130 ⇒ 00:37:45.909 Uttam Kumaran: Get because I need a couple of those just to pay
351 00:37:46.160 ⇒ 00:37:50.829 Uttam Kumaran: rent, and so like that. But now, once I get past that you’re saying.
352 00:37:50.940 ⇒ 00:37:54.549 Uttam Kumaran: really gun for enterprise, who can do like 50 KA month
353 00:37:54.780 ⇒ 00:37:57.600 Uttam Kumaran: for like 25 KA month, and then be like.
354 00:37:57.600 ⇒ 00:38:02.680 neiloliver: Remember, data culture was doing 25 KA month. You should be able to do that easy. That should.
355 00:38:02.920 ⇒ 00:38:08.209 Uttam Kumaran: I’m not worried about that like I think we’ll naturally get there. Most of the people are are closer to there anyways.
356 00:38:08.210 ⇒ 00:38:16.259 neiloliver: You want. You want a 50 KA month, or like, if you got a month, something like that. That’s when okay.
357 00:38:16.770 ⇒ 00:38:24.310 Uttam Kumaran: And then what do you? How many people? And what do you think? That’s what do you think there’s a difference in care or service there versus the 25.
358 00:38:25.780 ⇒ 00:38:27.890 neiloliver: It’s like some of it
359 00:38:28.900 ⇒ 00:38:30.899 neiloliver: in in good and bad ways. Those.
360 00:38:30.900 ⇒ 00:38:34.929 Uttam Kumaran: Like I’ll put a like I’ll put a shirt on if it’s 50 K. You know what I mean.
361 00:38:34.930 ⇒ 00:38:43.000 neiloliver: Don’t care about that. They also, I wanna this is kind of about the the bigger they are, the kind of
362 00:38:43.690 ⇒ 00:38:49.500 neiloliver: they they just hit a. They hit a point where the money is not what they’re looking at.
363 00:38:49.790 ⇒ 00:39:07.609 neiloliver: So the money doesn’t become the factor in in whether they’re hiring you. So yeah, of course, they wanna know, like, Gary always used to be like, yeah, you don’t have 5 or 6 people on this project. But there was never saying, Oh, you have 5 or 6 people full time or anything. It was just numbers to close it. The other thing in this
364 00:39:08.380 ⇒ 00:39:20.920 neiloliver: this is good and bad is, the communication is slightly looser. And so when things aren’t going very well, you can actually coast for a very long time, which is kind of bad
365 00:39:21.410 ⇒ 00:39:30.349 neiloliver: but at the same time, when somebody’s paying you 50 K. And things are going south like that might be 2 months of you not doing, oh, like not paying.
366 00:39:30.350 ⇒ 00:39:43.740 Uttam Kumaran: No. But see, Dude, the one thing is, I’m there’s nothing we can go into and do and kill. So I’m so confident in what I’m selling that I’m never. We’re never in a situation where, honestly, I get pissed. If we’re not talking to you guys every fucking day.
367 00:39:43.920 ⇒ 00:39:44.940 Uttam Kumaran: cause I’m.
368 00:39:44.940 ⇒ 00:39:47.430 neiloliver: No, the the issue becomes
369 00:39:47.720 ⇒ 00:39:48.970 neiloliver: the
370 00:39:49.070 ⇒ 00:39:51.580 neiloliver: the companies aren’t like.
371 00:39:51.580 ⇒ 00:39:52.639 Uttam Kumaran: They’re slow.
372 00:39:52.640 ⇒ 00:39:54.860 neiloliver: Quite often. Yeah, it’s the companies that cause the.
373 00:39:54.860 ⇒ 00:40:07.639 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, you’re like waiting for access. You’re like waiting for a meeting. But see again, like I can corporate schmooze like my way, like I. I know all these executives like that stuff. We can play the politics and kind of move.
374 00:40:08.020 ⇒ 00:40:15.859 Uttam Kumaran: But I agree, I think, like I mean, I want to go for that sort of stuff. And I maybe it’s just to psych yourself out like, for example, I’m talking to Vercell.
375 00:40:16.050 ⇒ 00:40:17.019 neiloliver: Okay, her.
376 00:40:17.020 ⇒ 00:40:21.239 Uttam Kumaran: For potential working with their go to market team on some stuff.
377 00:40:21.420 ⇒ 00:40:26.089 Uttam Kumaran: But I was just gonna say, like 200 an hour. But then someone called me was like dude. You should go way higher than that.
378 00:40:29.310 ⇒ 00:40:30.659 Uttam Kumaran: I don’t know.
379 00:40:31.640 ⇒ 00:40:42.959 neiloliver: Yeah, unless you really think you’re like, the other thing is the more comfortable you are like it. It’s always that like, if you’re negotiating from like a point of strength. Like if you’ve got enough
380 00:40:43.584 ⇒ 00:40:45.095 neiloliver: clients that everything’s.
381 00:40:45.600 ⇒ 00:40:48.919 Uttam Kumaran: See, for if I get the Vercell logo it’s kind of sick.
382 00:40:48.920 ⇒ 00:40:59.740 neiloliver: I know, but if they get like, it’s the shocks thing like if they know that, then you’re on the back for and that’s that’s more difficult. But I will say.
383 00:41:00.290 ⇒ 00:41:04.550 neiloliver: I remember like we couldn’t get a word into
384 00:41:04.770 ⇒ 00:41:21.319 neiloliver: like after they started like gaining traction trying to get people on the phone for Snowflake was extremely difficult, because they like even to be the lowest tier of certified. You need 3 people through the certification program that cost thousands.
385 00:41:21.480 ⇒ 00:41:28.610 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, it cost 2 grand. It cost 2,500 per a person, and you need 3 of them. I’ve already looked into it. And yeah, they. But the thing is with me is like, I have, like.
386 00:41:28.650 ⇒ 00:41:33.770 Uttam Kumaran: I have people’s cell phone. I have snowflake people’s like cell phone numbers. I call and text
387 00:41:34.110 ⇒ 00:41:34.820 Uttam Kumaran: huh.
388 00:41:34.820 ⇒ 00:41:38.200 neiloliver: Yeah, we bought them cross fit.
389 00:41:39.140 ⇒ 00:41:39.790 Uttam Kumaran: Oh!
390 00:41:39.790 ⇒ 00:41:50.650 neiloliver: Only 5 accounts in an entire year, 5 enterprise accounts that were bought in from external partners, and we were one of them. They like then.
391 00:41:50.650 ⇒ 00:41:55.710 Uttam Kumaran: That’s the thing I’m bringing them a lot of on demand. People that are less than 10 K. Or 15 K. And I’m like.
392 00:41:55.710 ⇒ 00:41:57.689 neiloliver: When you get that, when you get that one.
393 00:41:57.690 ⇒ 00:42:01.710 Uttam Kumaran: But dude 15 K. For Snowflake. You have to be doing a lot.
394 00:42:02.010 ⇒ 00:42:02.660 neiloliver: Yeah.
395 00:42:03.120 ⇒ 00:42:08.509 neiloliver: but I can’t remember what what we bought like. We just had a couple that were that were huge.
396 00:42:09.640 ⇒ 00:42:12.689 Uttam Kumaran: I’m bringing them. I have like 4 or 5 things, and like.
397 00:42:13.070 ⇒ 00:42:16.990 Uttam Kumaran: collectively, like, we’re hitting good numbers. But yeah, I mean, I, it’s
398 00:42:18.330 ⇒ 00:42:20.590 Uttam Kumaran: yeah, we’ll see. Yeah.
399 00:42:22.150 ⇒ 00:42:29.919 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah. So I mean, I don’t know. I think I think I I remind myself of like what you said, and like trying to keep pushing it. My like kind of thing that I can stomach is like
400 00:42:30.000 ⇒ 00:42:33.609 Uttam Kumaran: every time we go to a new client, push 50 bucks more.
401 00:42:34.010 ⇒ 00:42:38.620 Uttam Kumaran: and like, if if they if if where there was more room to give, so be it. But like
402 00:42:39.630 ⇒ 00:42:43.270 Uttam Kumaran: we’re making more money, and you know, like you don’t pay engineers more.
403 00:42:43.350 ⇒ 00:42:44.499 Uttam Kumaran: There’s a cap.
404 00:42:44.720 ⇒ 00:42:46.080 neiloliver: Yeah, you.
405 00:42:47.120 ⇒ 00:42:48.670 neiloliver: There is.
406 00:42:48.670 ⇒ 00:42:50.960 Uttam Kumaran: And then can I ask a question? Did you
407 00:42:51.470 ⇒ 00:42:55.789 neiloliver: Scale because you start going. Oh, okay. Now, I can do your health insurance. Now I can do a 4 0. 1 K. Month.
408 00:42:55.790 ⇒ 00:42:56.859 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
409 00:42:56.860 ⇒ 00:42:58.990 neiloliver: It does like it does.
410 00:42:59.440 ⇒ 00:43:03.460 Uttam Kumaran: That’s the thing I was gonna ask you is like you put everybody on salary.
411 00:43:03.930 ⇒ 00:43:05.719 Uttam Kumaran: Everybody was on salary or no.
412 00:43:05.720 ⇒ 00:43:06.966 neiloliver: No, no,
413 00:43:07.950 ⇒ 00:43:12.170 neiloliver: I would say. If you can get 50 50 split
414 00:43:12.350 ⇒ 00:43:25.439 neiloliver: salary and and contractors, you’re doing well, like all contractors, you kind of go shit if they suddenly leave something else. They want the health insurance or whatever. But we’re in trouble.
415 00:43:25.790 ⇒ 00:43:29.260 Uttam Kumaran: And then but then who do you? Who do you put on? Who do you decide to put on what.
416 00:43:32.860 ⇒ 00:43:36.658 neiloliver: contracting was the best way to try people out.
417 00:43:37.620 ⇒ 00:43:39.200 Uttam Kumaran: Totally. But then, for example, like
418 00:43:39.250 ⇒ 00:43:41.299 Uttam Kumaran: I have one person that’s on. But again.
419 00:43:41.450 ⇒ 00:43:49.170 Uttam Kumaran: not. I don’t have any people on W. 2. So the 1st decision is like, I’m I’m only W. 2, but I kind of want some people on consistent
420 00:43:49.790 ⇒ 00:43:55.420 Uttam Kumaran: like per month fee cause. Then it makes like.
421 00:43:55.420 ⇒ 00:43:57.280 neiloliver: So much cheaper like
422 00:43:57.510 ⇒ 00:43:58.990 neiloliver: so much too bad.
423 00:43:59.160 ⇒ 00:44:00.040 neiloliver: I got
424 00:44:00.430 ⇒ 00:44:01.560 neiloliver: about
425 00:44:03.820 ⇒ 00:44:07.860 neiloliver: 50%, about 50% cheaper, something like that
426 00:44:08.110 ⇒ 00:44:08.720 neiloliver: like.
427 00:44:08.720 ⇒ 00:44:09.500 Uttam Kumaran: Wow!
428 00:44:10.120 ⇒ 00:44:17.630 neiloliver: Yeah. Like, if you work out for what is that? Hang on, what do you pay? What’s a what’s a reasonable rate for an engineer.
429 00:44:18.200 ⇒ 00:44:21.479 neiloliver: I mean yearly salary, like, if we’re looking
430 00:44:21.730 ⇒ 00:44:22.270 neiloliver: thunder.
431 00:44:22.270 ⇒ 00:44:23.580 Uttam Kumaran: 20 to 150.
432 00:44:23.580 ⇒ 00:44:27.560 neiloliver: Okay, like great. So if this.
433 00:44:27.560 ⇒ 00:44:30.290 Uttam Kumaran: 70, that’s like anywhere from like 50 to 70 an hour.
434 00:44:30.290 ⇒ 00:44:38.560 neiloliver: Yeah, exactly. And we were contracting. Our contractors were on anything from 100 to 125.
435 00:44:39.820 ⇒ 00:44:41.160 neiloliver: So they were on that one.
436 00:44:43.320 ⇒ 00:44:49.940 Uttam Kumaran: Oh, you’re right. Okay. Okay. See? See, I got some contractors that are low, but then I’m trying to get the high ones.
437 00:44:49.990 ⇒ 00:44:52.349 Uttam Kumaran: But then I may just like some of them. I’m like
438 00:44:52.370 ⇒ 00:44:55.990 Uttam Kumaran: they’ll only come join full time if I make like a full time kind of offer.
439 00:44:55.990 ⇒ 00:44:56.580 neiloliver: Yeah.
440 00:44:57.430 ⇒ 00:45:00.820 neiloliver: the the other one is look.
441 00:45:01.490 ⇒ 00:45:13.510 neiloliver: and I I know you wouldn’t do this like Gabby and Leah did, but, like Gabby and Leo went out to find cheap engineers and cheap places, which I against. However.
442 00:45:13.700 ⇒ 00:45:27.990 neiloliver: being aware of the idea that you can get, even if you’re not going. Okay, we’re going Nigeria. And everywhere that like Gabby Leo. And by the way, they got like amazing engineers for it, like Opm is flawless.
443 00:45:28.120 ⇒ 00:45:32.040 neiloliver: But you can go to like Canada, and immediately.
444 00:45:32.120 ⇒ 00:45:33.490 neiloliver: I remember.
445 00:45:33.710 ⇒ 00:45:39.619 neiloliver: helps so much. But, like from a business point of view, I really can do anything. But do you ever meet Megan.
446 00:45:39.910 ⇒ 00:45:48.500 neiloliver: She was like one of the studio designers. And when she come in to negotiate a salary
447 00:45:50.120 ⇒ 00:45:58.390 neiloliver: like, you know, people negotiate. So when it went out it was low, and I expected her to negotiate, and I think we went out at like
448 00:45:58.540 ⇒ 00:46:02.890 neiloliver: 80,000 something like that. And she was just like, Yeah, great, that’s amazing.
449 00:46:04.661 ⇒ 00:46:11.080 neiloliver: Wanted to be like, Oh, my God! I had the ability to go up to a hundred 20 with her.
450 00:46:11.080 ⇒ 00:46:15.360 Uttam Kumaran: Well, I know we’ll do. That’s why I wanna hire people in Austin, because people here are cheap, too.
451 00:46:15.620 ⇒ 00:46:17.878 neiloliver: Yeah, it’s just like, but.
452 00:46:18.330 ⇒ 00:46:21.869 Uttam Kumaran: There’s so I have some people abroad, but I’m very conscious of like
453 00:46:21.920 ⇒ 00:46:24.280 Uttam Kumaran: I’m not. I’m not particularly like
454 00:46:24.330 ⇒ 00:46:36.139 Uttam Kumaran: it does help the bottom line a lot. But my, I’m not. They need to be able to con communicate work in our pipeline and things like that. But also there’s decisions I had to make on people just because I didn’t have any money that now
455 00:46:36.200 ⇒ 00:46:38.990 Uttam Kumaran: I can think about differently. And now that I have, like
456 00:46:39.120 ⇒ 00:46:55.460 Uttam Kumaran: the project manager, it’s, for example, this, how I described it I hired like a coach, but then I also hired the whole team. So if the if the coach, if if we’re not able to win basketball games. Whose fault is it? So now, what I’m now, what I’m saying is like, I’m gonna work with the coach and say like, are these the players that you want.
457 00:46:55.610 ⇒ 00:46:56.340 neiloliver: Yep.
458 00:46:56.340 ⇒ 00:47:04.349 Uttam Kumaran: Right, so if he could run it, I don’t kill a fuck if he can run it and he can, and we’re good, then we’re good. But if he’s like, Hey, this guy is not great.
459 00:47:04.390 ⇒ 00:47:20.290 Uttam Kumaran: and then I’ll come in. I’ll say, well, he’s also expensive, or I’ll give him like a financial angle, and then we’ll kind of come to an agreement right like. So that’s the kind of that’s the kind of thing I said. I was like this guy’s gonna be coaching this team. I hired the team and I was the former coach. Now I’m going to like. GM,
460 00:47:20.320 ⇒ 00:47:26.950 Uttam Kumaran: if if the team, if the team isn’t good, I can’t blame it right. But I but I need to give him like a few weeks to kind of calibrate.
461 00:47:27.020 ⇒ 00:47:30.690 Uttam Kumaran: Understand? Who has accountability. Who’s listening? And then I told them, look.
462 00:47:30.750 ⇒ 00:47:36.779 Uttam Kumaran: I have a lot of connections. I have a lot of. We can go get more people and get interviews going, and I’m bringing on interns.
463 00:47:36.850 ⇒ 00:47:41.669 Uttam Kumaran: And so like, I want to support you with people, you know, for you to do your job.
464 00:47:41.670 ⇒ 00:47:42.582 neiloliver: That’s it. If you.
465 00:47:42.810 ⇒ 00:47:46.929 Uttam Kumaran: If they come from somewhere else, and they could do it, and we still have to pay much, I’d be happy, but.
466 00:47:47.470 ⇒ 00:47:51.529 neiloliver: If you can get up, lay those layers as well. I feel like that’s
467 00:47:51.580 ⇒ 00:47:53.270 neiloliver: helpful, like.
468 00:47:53.710 ⇒ 00:47:57.790 Uttam Kumaran: Dude, I mean, he needs to be a meat shield. He needs to be a human meat shield like I.
469 00:47:57.990 ⇒ 00:48:03.909 Uttam Kumaran: He needs to be in between us. So then I could be like this is fucked up. Figure it out, and then it doesn’t have to come from me
470 00:48:04.360 ⇒ 00:48:09.490 Uttam Kumaran: because I have, because for me, dude, you know, it’s like I have a feeling when something is about to like fuck up.
471 00:48:09.840 ⇒ 00:48:15.919 Uttam Kumaran: But I can’t go to the team. Be like I have a feeling or like cause I’ll just. I’ll just flip every fucking table over
472 00:48:16.460 ⇒ 00:48:19.379 Uttam Kumaran: and, like cooked cooked the entire meal myself.
473 00:48:19.500 ⇒ 00:48:22.170 Uttam Kumaran: and so instead, I need to go to. I go to be like, yeah.
474 00:48:23.090 ⇒ 00:48:26.059 Uttam Kumaran: something’s about the fuck up. And it’s probably this.
475 00:48:26.530 ⇒ 00:48:30.409 Uttam Kumaran: But I’m just gonna tell you you can do that without what you want to do, because it’s your problem now.
476 00:48:30.590 ⇒ 00:48:36.119 Uttam Kumaran: and but still still still help. In a way that’s like you. Someone still needs to have a pulse for like the business.
477 00:48:36.280 ⇒ 00:48:38.389 Uttam Kumaran: and it’s like a little bit outside of like.
478 00:48:38.550 ⇒ 00:48:43.669 Uttam Kumaran: Hey, I’m going after new clients. I’m gonna be a little bit absent in this week. You have to take over stuff like that.
479 00:48:43.670 ⇒ 00:48:47.539 neiloliver: If you’re paying somebody to be in that position, they need to be able to do that for you.
480 00:48:47.540 ⇒ 00:48:53.729 Uttam Kumaran: But see that guy. I’m willing to pay him more, and so even him. But he isn’t. He’s in Latim, and he’s sick. I’m paying him like 48 K,
481 00:48:53.950 ⇒ 00:49:04.759 Uttam Kumaran: and but that’s a role where I’m gonna start to throw him more money as we get better and and ideally try to get him incentivized to expand clients. Basically, right? Like, yeah.
482 00:49:05.540 ⇒ 00:49:06.640 neiloliver: Yeah, it’s
483 00:49:06.800 ⇒ 00:49:11.639 neiloliver: it’s much easier to extend that existing client and get a new client.
484 00:49:12.140 ⇒ 00:49:28.620 Uttam Kumaran: That’s why I also was talking to my friend. I was like dude. We need to be 2 meetings, 2 prospect meetings and close like it needs to happen quick. We cannot have 3 4 meetings, cause I just found that we don’t talk about anything new. It’s like, try a cell for a week, or try sell for a couple of weeks.
485 00:49:28.880 ⇒ 00:49:40.250 Uttam Kumaran: and like, or let us work on a small proof of concept for a month like I can keep telling you about the bi tools we’re gonna use and data models. And like we can do, Erd. But it’s like you’re never. You don’t give a fuck about that like.
486 00:49:40.250 ⇒ 00:49:40.840 neiloliver: Yeah.
487 00:49:41.320 ⇒ 00:49:41.990 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
488 00:49:42.830 ⇒ 00:49:46.580 Uttam Kumaran: So it’s like for me. I’m like talking like the paper needs to get signed like.
489 00:49:46.580 ⇒ 00:49:48.370 neiloliver: That’s it. That’s it. Like
490 00:49:48.410 ⇒ 00:49:49.760 neiloliver: I was.
491 00:49:50.370 ⇒ 00:49:53.499 neiloliver: a huge fine of land would expand
492 00:49:54.740 ⇒ 00:49:57.230 neiloliver: just just getting in the door, just getting.
493 00:49:57.230 ⇒ 00:50:05.800 Uttam Kumaran: What did you? What did you do like? Can you talk to me about the conversation when you need to add more hours, or you’re working more. And then you’re like, Hey, we’re working more.
494 00:50:05.840 ⇒ 00:50:07.369 Uttam Kumaran: What was the conversation.
495 00:50:08.580 ⇒ 00:50:17.699 neiloliver: So if you can, it’s the classic like negotiation thing. If you can get somebody to tell you what you’re thinking
496 00:50:17.730 ⇒ 00:50:21.299 neiloliver: your your like, you’ve won.
497 00:50:21.867 ⇒ 00:50:23.999 Uttam Kumaran: What do you mean in this context? I don’t. I’m not following.
498 00:50:24.000 ⇒ 00:50:25.340 neiloliver: So if
499 00:50:26.035 ⇒ 00:50:29.789 neiloliver: if need more hours, because there’s more work to do.
500 00:50:30.360 ⇒ 00:50:41.120 neiloliver: If you tell them there’s more work to do, you’re the one asking. But if you get them to tell you that there’s more work to do now you’re the one like affecting.
501 00:50:41.120 ⇒ 00:50:43.520 Uttam Kumaran: Oh, so you’re saying kind of just like.
502 00:50:43.840 ⇒ 00:50:47.060 Uttam Kumaran: pull back a little bit, let it for a little bit, and then be like.
503 00:50:47.060 ⇒ 00:50:49.940 neiloliver: Just the way that you position those things.
504 00:50:49.940 ⇒ 00:50:55.450 Uttam Kumaran: When they ask you for another thing, you tell them, hey, we have all these priorities already like we don’t have
505 00:50:55.730 ⇒ 00:50:56.780 Uttam Kumaran: time.
506 00:50:56.780 ⇒ 00:51:05.398 neiloliver: That’s that’s the thing. Yeah. And you can say, like, we can add additional staffing to this to be able to like, add that capacity.
507 00:51:06.550 ⇒ 00:51:23.260 neiloliver: Or, again, you can put it over to them, and to say, Hey, we’ve got these tasks, which are the highest priorities for you at the moment to make sure that they’re the one that’s so, you can kind of put it to them that it’s like, so you’re okay with this not being done right now, and you can again. You can remind them.
508 00:51:23.260 ⇒ 00:51:25.700 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah. You’re no one’s gonna say that no one’s gonna say that.
509 00:51:26.314 ⇒ 00:51:26.700 neiloliver: Okay.
510 00:51:26.700 ⇒ 00:51:27.689 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, okay, that’s helpful.
511 00:51:27.690 ⇒ 00:51:30.100 neiloliver: Yeah, there’s so many, so many silly things.
512 00:51:30.100 ⇒ 00:51:31.340 Uttam Kumaran: Did you also.
513 00:51:31.340 ⇒ 00:51:34.740 neiloliver: Yeah, have you read? Never split the difference.
514 00:51:34.740 ⇒ 00:51:38.930 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, yeah, and getting to. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, I should reread. But yeah, basically, it’s like.
515 00:51:39.320 ⇒ 00:51:39.890 Uttam Kumaran: yeah.
516 00:51:39.890 ⇒ 00:51:44.262 neiloliver: The the one that I, the biggest one from that
517 00:51:44.980 ⇒ 00:51:52.930 neiloliver: all the time, which I just find the most powerful one is don’t get somebody to say yes, get them to say no.
518 00:51:53.290 ⇒ 00:51:57.330 neiloliver: So you you basically like, instead of saying.
519 00:51:57.400 ⇒ 00:52:07.659 neiloliver: Would you like us to add another engineer to this for this cost, you say, would you be against us? Adding another engineer to the project? And they go? No, I’m not against that.
520 00:52:07.660 ⇒ 00:52:08.860 Uttam Kumaran: Oh!
521 00:52:09.441 ⇒ 00:52:12.349 neiloliver: Which no is a non-committal
522 00:52:12.707 ⇒ 00:52:18.099 neiloliver: so or like. Yes, is a commitment. But no isn’t, but it kind of is.
523 00:52:18.470 ⇒ 00:52:19.975 Uttam Kumaran: So what did you say? You said,
524 00:52:20.210 ⇒ 00:52:21.999 Uttam Kumaran: are you? Oh, are you against.
525 00:52:22.000 ⇒ 00:52:23.490 neiloliver: Yeah, are you against.
526 00:52:23.960 ⇒ 00:52:25.189 Uttam Kumaran: Okay. Okay.
527 00:52:25.860 ⇒ 00:52:29.960 neiloliver: But you, but you can do it in so many ways like depending on how you wanna pitch it
528 00:52:30.150 ⇒ 00:52:37.519 neiloliver: you you can. You can go as far to be like, you know. Would it be a crazy idea for us to do this? And then, like no, so crazy at all.
529 00:52:38.070 ⇒ 00:52:39.050 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
530 00:52:39.050 ⇒ 00:52:39.970 neiloliver: Cool bye.
531 00:52:39.970 ⇒ 00:52:40.879 Uttam Kumaran: Cool, cool, cool.
532 00:52:42.815 ⇒ 00:52:43.760 neiloliver: I use it.
533 00:52:43.760 ⇒ 00:52:48.759 Uttam Kumaran: Did you ever did you ever sell? Did you ever sell to like within an org, and then go to like
534 00:52:49.010 ⇒ 00:52:52.130 Uttam Kumaran: another company that’s like within the same parent order at all.
535 00:52:55.080 ⇒ 00:52:57.500 neiloliver: no, we I
536 00:52:58.420 ⇒ 00:53:07.110 neiloliver: we weren’t successful that we got close, and I wanna say that Gabby got involved, and they were the ones that fucked it up. But
537 00:53:07.190 ⇒ 00:53:11.390 neiloliver: we had this idea of landing a Vc.
538 00:53:12.160 ⇒ 00:53:13.040 Uttam Kumaran: Okay.
539 00:53:13.040 ⇒ 00:53:16.037 neiloliver: You’re on the Vc. You get that port pivot like done.
540 00:53:16.310 ⇒ 00:53:18.880 Uttam Kumaran: No. But yeah, I thought about this, too. Yeah.
541 00:53:19.716 ⇒ 00:53:20.930 neiloliver: But like
542 00:53:21.000 ⇒ 00:53:29.280 neiloliver: it doesn’t work. If you were to start with one of those portfolio companies and trying to explain the cost, it’s not gonna work. But if you start with the Vc.
543 00:53:29.280 ⇒ 00:53:29.900 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
544 00:53:29.900 ⇒ 00:53:30.590 neiloliver: Instead of them.
545 00:53:30.590 ⇒ 00:53:36.249 Uttam Kumaran: The Vc is like, you need them. Yeah. Yeah. And we went to. I have a Vc friend. But the problems their companies are too small
546 00:53:42.160 ⇒ 00:53:43.959 Uttam Kumaran: like. I almost need to go to private equity.
547 00:53:43.960 ⇒ 00:53:46.550 neiloliver: Now I’m gonna expand. Do you have something
548 00:53:47.060 ⇒ 00:53:53.710 neiloliver: a lot a lot of the time? The Vcs. So if the companies are too small, the Vcs are struggling to get the data that they need to make their decisions.
549 00:53:53.710 ⇒ 00:53:55.909 Uttam Kumaran: I told them. But then, at the same time, I’m like.
550 00:53:55.950 ⇒ 00:53:59.599 Uttam Kumaran: whose budget is it coming from? Like? Is it? Your is the Vc budget.
551 00:54:00.960 ⇒ 00:54:05.670 neiloliver: But if but if it is like, can you set up something small
552 00:54:05.750 ⇒ 00:54:08.770 neiloliver: so that your foot is in each of those companies.
553 00:54:08.770 ⇒ 00:54:09.840 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, yeah.
554 00:54:09.840 ⇒ 00:54:12.230 neiloliver: Almost like, even if you did it for free.
555 00:54:12.230 ⇒ 00:54:16.909 Uttam Kumaran: No, no, no, I would but like if they gave me the opportunity. And I I have. I spend time with them like
556 00:54:16.960 ⇒ 00:54:20.089 Uttam Kumaran: talking about their companies talking about kpis and stuff like that. But
557 00:54:20.460 ⇒ 00:54:21.779 Uttam Kumaran: that’s a good thing.
558 00:54:23.370 ⇒ 00:54:26.450 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, the other thing we’re doing is like, I have some companies where there’s like
559 00:54:26.780 ⇒ 00:54:29.190 Uttam Kumaran: there’s like a hundred of them in the Us. And I’m like.
560 00:54:29.500 ⇒ 00:54:34.280 Uttam Kumaran: I’m just gonna case study this and try to blast it to those 100 other folks like
561 00:54:34.410 ⇒ 00:54:36.660 Uttam Kumaran: we’re working with a steel company. And I’m like.
562 00:54:36.710 ⇒ 00:54:38.070 Uttam Kumaran: perfect, like.
563 00:54:38.430 ⇒ 00:54:45.130 Uttam Kumaran: we’re gonna do all your steel data. And then we’re gonna I’m gonna send it to. I’m gonna send a case study with to every steel company.
564 00:54:45.480 ⇒ 00:54:45.900 neiloliver: Yeah.
565 00:54:45.900 ⇒ 00:54:46.650 Uttam Kumaran: You know.
566 00:54:46.980 ⇒ 00:54:50.049 neiloliver: Yep, that’s that’s the way forward, but that’s.
567 00:54:50.050 ⇒ 00:54:53.070 Uttam Kumaran: Or or host a webinar on steel data, or like
568 00:54:53.150 ⇒ 00:54:58.589 Uttam Kumaran: something like, or go to a steel conference, you know. So like that is fun for me, because then there’s like no competition.
569 00:54:59.140 ⇒ 00:54:59.990 neiloliver: Yeah.
570 00:55:00.570 ⇒ 00:55:07.609 neiloliver: yeah, that’s I think they’re the they’re the ones to win. And I was never able to like
571 00:55:07.730 ⇒ 00:55:08.480 neiloliver: reading.
572 00:55:08.480 ⇒ 00:55:12.500 Uttam Kumaran: Get them get that like type of like historic, big, old kind of companies.
573 00:55:12.500 ⇒ 00:55:14.799 neiloliver: I think this, this is just where, like.
574 00:55:15.270 ⇒ 00:55:19.490 Uttam Kumaran: Well, that’s because their connections Gabby and Leah’s and you’re a New York based company
575 00:55:20.050 ⇒ 00:55:20.980 Uttam Kumaran: like.
576 00:55:21.510 ⇒ 00:55:21.860 neiloliver: But they.
577 00:55:21.860 ⇒ 00:55:26.409 Uttam Kumaran: I don’t know. It’s kind of flashy. It’s kind of like flashy hip. Cpg brands.
578 00:55:26.410 ⇒ 00:55:29.580 neiloliver: Their their focus for
579 00:55:30.588 ⇒ 00:55:41.089 neiloliver: for marketing and sales was to be part of the data community and go out and present Snowflake summit and blah blah blah like you’re talking to a room full of data. People.
580 00:55:41.090 ⇒ 00:55:44.371 Uttam Kumaran: No, that’s for talent. Do that for talent like, not for.
581 00:55:44.670 ⇒ 00:56:05.838 neiloliver: They never, they never got anything talent wise from from those things. They were trying to do that because they just wanted to be known the partnerships and and none of the partnerships ever like we in that very early days. It did. I gotta give them that like the way that they got it from like 0 to 10 people
582 00:56:06.300 ⇒ 00:56:07.970 neiloliver: was because
583 00:56:07.980 ⇒ 00:56:20.130 neiloliver: they managed to piggyback in a great way off of 5 tran success and got in early with Snowflake and got them, and that boosted them massively. But all of those partnerships died off
584 00:56:21.970 ⇒ 00:56:23.810 neiloliver: but like we had
585 00:56:24.040 ⇒ 00:56:29.180 neiloliver: really had a client that was in the mental health space.
586 00:56:29.270 ⇒ 00:56:32.179 neiloliver: who was huge on the
587 00:56:33.087 ⇒ 00:56:35.290 neiloliver: conference circuit for mental health things.
588 00:56:35.500 ⇒ 00:56:42.989 neiloliver: It’s like my. My focus would have been every day just getting hold of him and being like, can we come and present alongside you
589 00:56:43.090 ⇒ 00:56:54.170 neiloliver: like we’re not gonna sell. We’re gonna we’re gonna do this totally through your lens, which is, he was selling like the power of using data within mental health.
590 00:56:54.260 ⇒ 00:57:01.540 neiloliver: I was like, no, don’t want to do a sales pitch. We just want to come and be a support alongside you. That’ll be enough.
591 00:57:01.930 ⇒ 00:57:02.560 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
592 00:57:04.250 ⇒ 00:57:12.760 Uttam Kumaran: yeah, see? But the thing is like, you know, and you need like a little bit of room to kind of think about these ideas, and like, execute and travel, and do that sort of stuff right like.
593 00:57:13.480 ⇒ 00:57:16.320 neiloliver: Yeah, yeah, they’re they’re difficult.
594 00:57:16.520 ⇒ 00:57:19.989 neiloliver: And it and it’s all like additional costs as well. Like all.
595 00:57:19.990 ⇒ 00:57:21.460 Uttam Kumaran: No, I know. Yeah.
596 00:57:22.090 ⇒ 00:57:23.319 neiloliver: The cost we are.
597 00:57:23.620 ⇒ 00:57:24.300 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
598 00:57:25.040 ⇒ 00:57:26.889 Uttam Kumaran: that’d be fun, though. So.
599 00:57:27.530 ⇒ 00:57:32.249 neiloliver: There. The piece that I do think it’s worthwhile
600 00:57:32.640 ⇒ 00:57:40.469 neiloliver: keeping in mind in like a great way is you don’t have to solve every problem before like arises, you can just.
601 00:57:40.470 ⇒ 00:57:41.030 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
602 00:57:41.030 ⇒ 00:57:45.960 neiloliver: You can just do things and be scrappy. That’s the the benefit of where you are.
603 00:57:47.385 ⇒ 00:57:48.480 neiloliver: And
604 00:57:48.580 ⇒ 00:57:53.470 neiloliver: the other thing that just seems to come up all the time with, like,
605 00:57:54.850 ⇒ 00:58:02.729 neiloliver: like big entrepreneurs that basically say, you like, start with something that doesn’t scale.
606 00:58:03.250 ⇒ 00:58:05.929 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, which is which is this? Yeah.
607 00:58:05.930 ⇒ 00:58:13.069 neiloliver: And and that’s the other thing as well. Don’t don’t worry about solving the how you scale it. Just fucking. Run it.
608 00:58:13.070 ⇒ 00:58:17.460 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, that’s why it’s also like some people have pitched me on like product ideas and stuff like, I’m like
609 00:58:17.910 ⇒ 00:58:22.580 Uttam Kumaran: dude. That’s be way harder. And this is making money like and
610 00:58:22.850 ⇒ 00:58:27.580 Uttam Kumaran: like, I don’t want to go do a product idea that like may not work like this is working and like
611 00:58:28.344 ⇒ 00:58:30.940 Uttam Kumaran: it’s in data. It’s all I know. So
612 00:58:33.520 ⇒ 00:58:35.999 neiloliver: No, yeah, it sounds like you’re doing great.
613 00:58:36.000 ⇒ 00:58:39.110 Uttam Kumaran: Would you go back into like data agency stuff.
614 00:58:43.560 ⇒ 00:58:45.410 neiloliver: I don’t know
615 00:58:45.660 ⇒ 00:58:46.250 neiloliver: there’s so.
616 00:58:46.250 ⇒ 00:58:50.767 Uttam Kumaran: Money was right if the price was right.
617 00:58:51.680 ⇒ 00:58:52.590 Uttam Kumaran: But
618 00:58:53.566 ⇒ 00:58:56.943 Uttam Kumaran: I don’t have a job for you, but you know, maybe.
619 00:58:58.190 ⇒ 00:59:00.840 neiloliver: It’s a really interesting one.
620 00:59:00.900 ⇒ 00:59:02.470 neiloliver: because
621 00:59:04.750 ⇒ 00:59:08.370 neiloliver: and I think I think this is just true of the people.
622 00:59:08.680 ⇒ 00:59:12.082 neiloliver: mainly the gabby and Leo would like, bring in
623 00:59:12.620 ⇒ 00:59:13.740 neiloliver: But
624 00:59:14.330 ⇒ 00:59:18.190 neiloliver: I always felt like the problem that we were so like
625 00:59:18.270 ⇒ 00:59:20.759 neiloliver: the problem that the companies had.
626 00:59:21.670 ⇒ 00:59:27.500 neiloliver: Like the clients of data culture were not data problems.
627 00:59:27.930 ⇒ 00:59:33.040 neiloliver: And so we were kind of solving this thing. But I don’t know that we ever.
628 00:59:33.040 ⇒ 00:59:38.769 Uttam Kumaran: That’s cause they, Gabby is not a data person. And Leah was kind of a data person.
629 00:59:38.770 ⇒ 00:59:42.409 neiloliver: Like fundamentally broken at a at a much higher.
630 00:59:42.410 ⇒ 00:59:43.979 Uttam Kumaran: Structure, level, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
631 00:59:44.256 ⇒ 00:59:46.189 neiloliver: And and so that was a little.
632 00:59:46.660 ⇒ 00:59:47.360 neiloliver: and I’ll be.
633 00:59:47.690 ⇒ 00:59:51.319 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, you just didn’t see your you didn’t see your. That’s the thing I always talk to. The team is like
634 00:59:51.460 ⇒ 00:59:55.169 Uttam Kumaran: at the end of the day like, it’s not about the dashboard it’s like, do they make more money
635 00:59:55.455 ⇒ 01:00:01.269 Uttam Kumaran: like? And so I I constantly am like hammering that because some people will be like they just want to take a box. And I’m like dude.
636 01:00:01.820 ⇒ 01:00:03.699 Uttam Kumaran: They’re not going to use that shit
637 01:00:03.710 ⇒ 01:00:10.440 Uttam Kumaran: like. Take a step back and look like it’s so complicated, so confusing. It took you a half an hour to explain to me
638 01:00:10.610 ⇒ 01:00:13.835 Uttam Kumaran: what you think that we’re gonna put that in front of them like no, it’s
639 01:00:14.150 ⇒ 01:00:21.569 Uttam Kumaran: Think of, put yourself. But then this is, you know what happened. This is really really nice. I was introducing the project manager to a client last weekend
640 01:00:21.650 ⇒ 01:00:25.760 Uttam Kumaran: you literally is like. The one thing we appreciate about we saw in his business is that
641 01:00:25.860 ⇒ 01:00:27.710 Uttam Kumaran: they have
642 01:00:28.280 ⇒ 01:00:36.370 Uttam Kumaran: taken our business as their own in that when they make decisions. And the way they work on things is like they’re part of our business.
643 01:00:36.380 ⇒ 01:00:37.920 Uttam Kumaran: And and I was like
644 01:00:37.990 ⇒ 01:00:39.740 Uttam Kumaran: 100%.
645 01:00:40.120 ⇒ 01:00:40.779 neiloliver: That’s exactly.
646 01:00:40.780 ⇒ 01:00:48.510 Uttam Kumaran: I am an extension of you, meaning when I go talk to vendors, when I go make decisions I’m thinking about like
647 01:00:48.550 ⇒ 01:00:51.499 Uttam Kumaran: if if I own the steel business. How would I do this thing?
648 01:00:51.500 ⇒ 01:00:51.850 neiloliver: I see.
649 01:00:51.850 ⇒ 01:00:53.149 Uttam Kumaran: I’m not like. Oh, they’re just paying me.
650 01:00:53.150 ⇒ 01:00:54.210 neiloliver: I’d say.
651 01:00:54.210 ⇒ 01:00:55.080 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
652 01:00:55.410 ⇒ 01:01:06.270 neiloliver: Like that super important, and that was like I didn’t hear that or heard the opposite about like working with Brooklyn later. It was very impersonal. It was very about just about like.
653 01:01:06.590 ⇒ 01:01:07.340 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
654 01:01:07.430 ⇒ 01:01:16.129 neiloliver: Process for me. There’s like 2 big things which is like one like I’m thinking about Sigma.
655 01:01:16.290 ⇒ 01:01:17.590 neiloliver: which is.
656 01:01:17.990 ⇒ 01:01:20.200 neiloliver: doesn’t matter how good the product is
657 01:01:20.550 ⇒ 01:01:21.540 neiloliver: like.
658 01:01:21.730 ⇒ 01:01:25.010 neiloliver: effectively. I’ve been making this argument about how we’re gonna beat
659 01:01:25.140 ⇒ 01:01:26.400 neiloliver: tableau.
660 01:01:26.430 ⇒ 01:01:49.179 neiloliver: because tableau has 20 years of building features. So I am never, ever, ever going to be able to catch up to the number of features that they’ve got. But all those features rely on somebody coming in and knowing how to effectively use those features to get the best outcome. And actually, if I can get somebody to the the same or better outcome.
661 01:01:49.450 ⇒ 01:01:51.120 neiloliver: with less stuff like.
662 01:01:51.120 ⇒ 01:01:51.870 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, with.
663 01:01:52.210 ⇒ 01:01:54.780 neiloliver: And it’s just that idea of going.
664 01:01:55.230 ⇒ 01:02:02.519 neiloliver: What is the actual goal? Because, like, you say, the goal isn’t with the dashboard up. The goal is for somebody to take an action from the.
665 01:02:02.520 ⇒ 01:02:05.820 Uttam Kumaran: But see, it’s it’s an honest goal. If you know you can do it.
666 01:02:05.990 ⇒ 01:02:08.510 Uttam Kumaran: If you’re like here to show data.
667 01:02:09.280 ⇒ 01:02:22.499 Uttam Kumaran: Well, you’re not gonna say that for me, I’m not here to show data like I’m not here to implement shit and leave you into dust. I’m here to change your business. I even disagree with people when they’re like, we want this dashboard. I’m like, that’s not really like what you want.
668 01:02:22.910 ⇒ 01:02:23.450 neiloliver: I don’t.
669 01:02:23.450 ⇒ 01:02:24.580 Uttam Kumaran: Get to the root.
670 01:02:24.790 ⇒ 01:02:28.790 neiloliver: Best question, what action are you gonna take from that? That chat.
671 01:02:29.260 ⇒ 01:02:30.560 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, and it’s.
672 01:02:30.560 ⇒ 01:02:32.719 neiloliver: If somebody can’t answer it.
673 01:02:32.720 ⇒ 01:02:42.230 Uttam Kumaran: But that’s also something like we built dash for people. They don’t look at it. And they’re like, Yeah, I’m not a dash for person. But like you could come and show me the data, I’ll make a decision like, Okay, cool. So you need like an analyst. And we need weekly meetings.
674 01:02:42.230 ⇒ 01:02:43.647 neiloliver: Yes, yeah. Perfect.
675 01:02:44.120 ⇒ 01:02:52.480 Uttam Kumaran: Right? That’s it. So I don’t. I don’t have any shame in that. But also, like I want, because the best thing you can do is actually impact the business. They’ll never take us out.
676 01:02:52.700 ⇒ 01:03:01.230 Uttam Kumaran: The worst thing we could do is hide and like, try to jump around and try to like cause. But that’s the thing is like when you, if I’m just honest about like, I actually think we can help these guys.
677 01:03:01.320 ⇒ 01:03:02.900 Uttam Kumaran: I’m like, let’s push it, you know.
678 01:03:02.900 ⇒ 01:03:05.610 neiloliver: That’s it. And I think if you
679 01:03:05.790 ⇒ 01:03:16.230 neiloliver: you will do very, very well at keeping that the narrative of your conversations. So when you need a data stack. It’s like, no, no, no! What? What problem are you solving for?
680 01:03:16.600 ⇒ 01:03:25.045 neiloliver: Like we, we need the data. No, no, no, like what is. What do you need the data for? Tell me the
681 01:03:26.330 ⇒ 01:03:44.060 neiloliver: yeah. So I’m trying to do a lot of that. And actually, there’s 1 amazing thing which I still can’t wrap my head around the fact that this is real. But in Sigma there is a live chat, and I was like, Oh, it’s the classic. Like every live chat to Paul, Nope. It is
682 01:03:44.060 ⇒ 01:04:05.390 neiloliver: 3 teams, one in Uk, one in New York, one in Sf, that is full time. Live people on the end of that. But the way me, Ceos bullshit all the time that this is one of the truest statements ever their mandate is not to teach you how to use the product. But it’s to solve your business problems.
683 01:04:05.470 ⇒ 01:04:07.929 neiloliver: So people literally like.
684 01:04:07.930 ⇒ 01:04:09.780 Uttam Kumaran: Oh, they just get analyst help.
685 01:04:09.940 ⇒ 01:04:13.230 neiloliver: They’re like, Oh, like, I’m really like, I’m trying to
686 01:04:13.787 ⇒ 01:04:19.619 neiloliver: you know, create this thing and then live, chat, sit with them and go through and like create stuff with them.
687 01:04:19.900 ⇒ 01:04:22.942 neiloliver: Wild, best part of the product by a mile.
688 01:04:23.280 ⇒ 01:04:24.839 Uttam Kumaran: Great. I mean, yeah.
689 01:04:25.050 ⇒ 01:04:27.460 neiloliver: It’s that same thing of like. It’s not.
690 01:04:27.690 ⇒ 01:04:31.150 neiloliver: You are not the tools you’re putting in. You are the.
691 01:04:31.150 ⇒ 01:04:33.019 Uttam Kumaran: The impact. You have yeah, outcome.
692 01:04:33.520 ⇒ 01:04:36.940 neiloliver: And and you never would like.
693 01:04:37.120 ⇒ 01:04:40.139 neiloliver: I wouldn’t recommend trying to tie yourself to outcomes.
694 01:04:40.140 ⇒ 01:04:44.539 Uttam Kumaran: No, no, no, I don’t do it. I don’t do anything on a performance basis, but it’s more of like.
695 01:04:44.890 ⇒ 01:04:48.860 Uttam Kumaran: Look, I just want to show that we are constantly guiding ourselves by, like
696 01:04:49.040 ⇒ 01:04:52.929 Uttam Kumaran: you, increasing revenue. Or, again, I constantly try to remind the team like
697 01:04:53.110 ⇒ 01:04:58.730 Uttam Kumaran: these are their goals, like everything we do needs to be adjacent to their goals. Our picks and shovels are data.
698 01:04:59.070 ⇒ 01:05:01.760 Uttam Kumaran: everybody else’s other tools. They could. Do, you know.
699 01:05:02.240 ⇒ 01:05:03.999 neiloliver: I mean, if you’re like.
700 01:05:04.290 ⇒ 01:05:17.290 neiloliver: if you clip and you’ve got like an amazing product, then you can do the like. I can definitely improve your outcome. Great. But apart from that, I think from a consultancy standpoint, it relies way too much on.
701 01:05:17.290 ⇒ 01:05:18.279 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, bye.
702 01:05:18.280 ⇒ 01:05:20.129 neiloliver: How that company is functioning.
703 01:05:20.130 ⇒ 01:05:20.720 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
704 01:05:22.400 ⇒ 01:05:29.370 neiloliver: to tie to tie it to that. But I I don’t think that takes away from the idea of like if your goal is to
705 01:05:29.480 ⇒ 01:05:37.599 neiloliver: like, try and make them better, not to put in data infrastructure. Then people will definitely keep you around.
706 01:05:38.208 ⇒ 01:05:40.719 neiloliver: We do other people and everything.
707 01:05:40.720 ⇒ 01:05:41.520 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
708 01:05:41.640 ⇒ 01:05:42.440 Uttam Kumaran: yeah.
709 01:05:42.850 ⇒ 01:05:44.689 Uttam Kumaran: sick. I’m pumped.
710 01:05:46.350 ⇒ 01:05:49.666 neiloliver: Calendar. Your absolute calendar is amazing. So.
711 01:05:50.140 ⇒ 01:05:50.950 Uttam Kumaran: Appreciate it.
712 01:05:51.420 ⇒ 01:05:56.539 Uttam Kumaran: appreciate it’s going. I’ll have to come see you soon. I was. I was briefly in New York before a trip, but
713 01:05:56.640 ⇒ 01:06:01.160 Uttam Kumaran: just so crazy. So I wanna try to do a business more businessy trip sometime in the next
714 01:06:01.340 ⇒ 01:06:03.520 Uttam Kumaran: few months. So I’m thinking about when
715 01:06:03.760 ⇒ 01:06:07.400 Uttam Kumaran: basically just waiting for bills to get paid for this next month. So.
716 01:06:08.560 ⇒ 01:06:11.110 neiloliver: Cool. Well, when you do
717 01:06:11.490 ⇒ 01:06:16.699 neiloliver: we’ll I’ll get you into the Signal office. We’ll get you introduced to some of the Aes.
718 01:06:17.630 ⇒ 01:06:18.779 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, be lovely.
719 01:06:19.430 ⇒ 01:06:24.559 neiloliver: And we’ll go from there. We’ll try to. We can probably find out who has, like Austin.
720 01:06:25.990 ⇒ 01:06:27.130 Uttam Kumaran: Oh, yeah.
721 01:06:27.130 ⇒ 01:06:29.190 neiloliver: They don’t. They won’t have territories like very.
722 01:06:29.190 ⇒ 01:06:30.990 Uttam Kumaran: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
723 01:06:31.250 ⇒ 01:06:33.669 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah. I don’t know anybody. I don’t know anybody
724 01:06:34.690 ⇒ 01:06:36.480 Uttam Kumaran: in Austin with Sigma.
725 01:06:36.920 ⇒ 01:06:42.380 Uttam Kumaran: But I also don’t know many, many companies in Austin that are you doing data stuff I haven’t really like pressed it. But
726 01:06:42.630 ⇒ 01:06:46.149 Uttam Kumaran: if they’re in person, I feel like we’re even closing faster, you know.
727 01:06:46.470 ⇒ 01:06:50.359 neiloliver: Yeah, there’s something wonderful like getting in a room with people as well. That’s.
728 01:06:50.360 ⇒ 01:06:51.490 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
729 01:06:51.940 ⇒ 01:06:52.830 Uttam Kumaran: yeah.
730 01:06:54.120 ⇒ 01:07:01.759 neiloliver: Awesome dude. Well, I’ll leave get back to work. Just game is on in
731 01:07:02.238 ⇒ 01:07:04.930 neiloliver: an hour and a quarter. So
732 01:07:05.470 ⇒ 01:07:09.409 neiloliver: gonna watch that give the 4 tickets. Tickets are like 700 bucks.
733 01:07:09.410 ⇒ 01:07:14.119 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah dude. You’re not go. Yeah, it’s crazy. I’m I’m watching playoff Mba playoffs, though.
734 01:07:14.510 ⇒ 01:07:23.129 neiloliver: Yeah, I I like, I didn’t get into the basketball at all, but massive, massive hockey fan. Now.
735 01:07:23.300 ⇒ 01:07:25.800 Uttam Kumaran: Nice, nice, great rangers are a great team.
736 01:07:26.260 ⇒ 01:07:27.510 neiloliver: Then, like
737 01:07:27.750 ⇒ 01:07:32.240 neiloliver: they, they’re doing better than they have done in a very, very, very long time.
738 01:07:33.300 ⇒ 01:07:36.739 neiloliver: So yeah, there are conference finals at the moment.
739 01:07:37.080 ⇒ 01:07:38.360 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, it’s crazy.
740 01:07:38.560 ⇒ 01:07:41.560 neiloliver: I against panthers, which is a really fucking hard time.
741 01:07:41.560 ⇒ 01:07:42.340 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
742 01:07:43.060 ⇒ 01:07:44.090 neiloliver: Struggling.
743 01:07:45.430 ⇒ 01:07:46.785 neiloliver: It’s tied
744 01:07:50.130 ⇒ 01:07:53.017 neiloliver: right, dude. I’ll leave you to it. But wonderful to see you and.
745 01:07:53.240 ⇒ 01:07:54.130 Uttam Kumaran: Jack.
746 01:07:54.130 ⇒ 01:07:56.239 neiloliver: On the end of the phone. Anytime we need anything.
747 01:07:56.490 ⇒ 01:07:57.949 Uttam Kumaran: Cool perfect thanks, man.
748 01:07:57.950 ⇒ 01:07:58.970 neiloliver: That’s it. Bye.
749 01:07:58.970 ⇒ 01:07:59.600 Uttam Kumaran: Bye.