Meeting Title: Uttam <> Daniel - Applique-Feasibility Date: 2023-12-14 Meeting participants: Daniel Lawrence, Uttam Kumaran
WEBVTT
1 00:00:18.090 ⇒ 00:00:46.240 Daniel Lawrence: Hey? How’s it going, man?
2 00:00:46.460 ⇒ 00:00:48.039 Uttam Kumaran: I’m in central time.
3 00:00:48.350 ⇒ 00:00:56.940 Daniel Lawrence: Okay? So what? I guess it doesn’t matter. It would be at 3 45. Your time. Okay, yeah, I don’t think we’re going to need a ton of time. I think the main thing is, I just wanted to
4 00:00:56.950 ⇒ 00:01:08.069 Uttam Kumaran: and definitely interested to hear about your background, how you and Ian connected, but I think you know, he might have explained a little bit of kind of the idea we’re exploring and want to get some feedback.
5 00:01:08.440 ⇒ 00:01:37.100 Uttam Kumaran: and yeah, so II can give you a little bit of of my background. So I currently, I currently live here at Austin background is in data, engineering and computer engineering, work for a number of firms doing like data analytics like leading data teams in New York before this, and then also did like a couple like I spent as a leading product, as a startup. And then more recently kind of started my own firm doing data analytics directly for clients. And then, in addition.
6 00:01:37.360 ⇒ 00:02:00.410 Uttam Kumaran: when kind of processes similar to Ian, we’re kind of exploring some ideas within, like generative AI and building prototypes. With AI, and so meaning. And just like we should just met at my apartment one day just at the pool. And yeah, sky. I mean nothing related to business or work. And then we just kind of became
7 00:02:00.410 ⇒ 00:02:20.660 Uttam Kumaran: homies. And then we started talking, and I learned a lot about insurance, and I’m always in curious and interested in asking about people questions. Especially, it feels like that where it’s like, so black box. And yeah, I learned a lot about insurance and kind of his processes like a commercial insurance broker. And we started exploring this idea of
8 00:02:20.690 ⇒ 00:02:41.000 Uttam Kumaran: finding ways to like, you know, automate a lot of the road, or like very mundane tasks in that job which I think there’s a huge ability for like generative AI to actually accomplish that. In particular, we were spoke a lot about the filling out and the managing of supplemental applications, as it relates to the actual
9 00:02:41.030 ⇒ 00:02:44.500 Uttam Kumaran: acquisition of quotes or the renewal process.
10 00:02:44.560 ⇒ 00:03:04.139 Uttam Kumaran: and so like, I would say, like, I’ve I’ve learned a ton about that part of insurance but beyond that is like, I’m just getting my feet when learning a lot about the industry. But for me, I related a lot to any industry where, you know, there’s brokers, and there’s it’s it’s less of like it. You’re you’re actually just like a the broker is what connects
11 00:03:04.200 ⇒ 00:03:14.460 Uttam Kumaran: you, the the the client to the actual, you know, ensure, insure, compared to like some other fields like that commercial real estate, you have almost representatives. And so you know
12 00:03:14.540 ⇒ 00:03:18.380 Uttam Kumaran: the the levers, I think, for that broker, or something like Ian, it’s like, can they
13 00:03:18.600 ⇒ 00:03:31.030 Uttam Kumaran: file? Can I get more quotes? Can they do more iterations of the wheel to get better prices for the clients, then can I manage more clients right? And then this process he walked me through of filling those supplement applications out.
14 00:03:31.140 ⇒ 00:03:38.020 Uttam Kumaran: and how how unique there are to each thing. I was like, you gotta be kidding me like it’s brutal. right?
15 00:03:38.080 ⇒ 00:03:43.050 Daniel Lawrence: And I’m I’m sure I’m just like preaching the choir. But yeah, I am. I’m like from my side. I’m like.
16 00:03:43.280 ⇒ 00:03:52.169 Uttam Kumaran: Scott is like, I think if I think there’s like something here we could try and do. And maybe we start with just him and and one of his clients, and we kind of expand. So that’s
17 00:03:52.310 ⇒ 00:04:01.499 Daniel Lawrence: generally the idea. Happy to go more in depth. But thanks for the background. There, yeah, let me
18 00:04:01.590 ⇒ 00:04:13.839 Daniel Lawrence: first off awesome. What you’re doing like we need more. I I’ve been in the any tech space for 5 years now, and you know more the better like. There was this
19 00:04:14.020 ⇒ 00:04:18.829 Daniel Lawrence: a big boom back in like 20 sixteenish.
20 00:04:19.110 ⇒ 00:04:29.590 Daniel Lawrence: Really in like 2,019 of like insurance, I call Indie tech tech technology, because mainly for the independent agent. But there’s like big boom that came in.
21 00:04:29.730 ⇒ 00:04:35.330 Daniel Lawrence: And there’s yeah. There’s a lot of vendors out there. You know.
22 00:04:35.660 ⇒ 00:04:58.250 Daniel Lawrence: And so my background I’ve been. I started off at a company called Agency Zoom, which is a a insurance specific Crm. So basically what it was was, it was built on a specific architecture, and the modules were sales, renewals, service, and basically build your own pipelines. Your own automations
23 00:04:58.510 ⇒ 00:05:05.370 Daniel Lawrence: and insurance didn’t have that you know you could build, you know some companies could. We’re building off salesforce
24 00:05:05.600 ⇒ 00:05:22.730 Daniel Lawrence: problem is, is it didn’t integrate with management systems. And so there are a lot of duplication of data entry right? So that’s where agency Zoom came in and really changed the game, which, to make it more cookie cutter for agencies make it easier to go in shit out
25 00:05:22.760 ⇒ 00:05:43.579 Daniel Lawrence: but integrated with the management system, which are antiquated, terrible. Because in my world, I’m like, okay, can we integrate with someone that’s existing, and then even I tried to call them. They like goes to me for a while like it’s it seems like they’re
26 00:05:43.640 ⇒ 00:06:04.900 Daniel Lawrence: they probably just one. And then they’re like chillin. They’re they’re I’m just you know, I’m very involved in the community. I know it’s going on II from Agency. Zoom. I went over to wonder right and wonder. It’s actually doing what you’re talking about right now. Supplemental applications
27 00:06:05.350 ⇒ 00:06:20.350 Daniel Lawrence: and being able to make it easier to work in those forms. but pass the data back into the management system so very familiar in the world that you’re in right now. There is a huge problem today, like
28 00:06:20.890 ⇒ 00:06:30.259 Daniel Lawrence: The first player, it was Indio indio They started in 2016
29 00:06:30.440 ⇒ 00:06:54.379 Daniel Lawrence: with the sole idea of Hey, I have these supplementals and and like, if I’m a broker, I want to get as many quotes out. But I you know all the forms are the same same question and just copy and pasting this data in and they came up with the idea to cross, form map. So, taking 2 Pdf side by side, mapping the questions that are same or similar.
30 00:06:54.540 ⇒ 00:07:01.740 Daniel Lawrence: Yeah. And so they are the first, like mover in the space. They didn’t integrate with epic until, like later, it was like a
31 00:07:02.170 ⇒ 00:07:15.000 Daniel Lawrence: not very good integration. but it was revolutionary in its time, and they were selling like 46, like 5, 6 digit contracts, and then they get acquired by applied for like 200 and
32 00:07:15.010 ⇒ 00:07:29.710 Daniel Lawrence: 50 mill. Right? So those are the first movers, and then there’s another one, a broker, Buddha. Yep, they got acquired by actor S. Which is Uk. Company. So
33 00:07:29.940 ⇒ 00:07:38.809 Daniel Lawrence: there are actresses looking to get in the Us. Market and using Broker Buddha as a way to get in broker, Buddha does not have a lot of agencies like
34 00:07:39.270 ⇒ 00:07:47.070 Daniel Lawrence: the reality is. they don’t provide enough value for what they want to charge. Yeah, So
35 00:07:47.470 ⇒ 00:07:59.559 Daniel Lawrence: I hear the whole, the whole world you’re in and like. I can just say, like, what I’ve learned is just focus on tenxing.
36 00:08:00.080 ⇒ 00:08:26.530 Uttam Kumaran: Yes, one thing today, don’t I understand? You gotta sell a vision. I get that. And my background is all in startups. And like DC, and I actually particularly not doing that meaning I have like a I have like a client business where there’s cash coming out. And instead, it’s like, how can I leverage my skill set like engineers on my team to go build these point solutions.
37 00:08:26.750 ⇒ 00:08:32.559 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, we could go start a company and do all that. But if the cheaper I can do that, the cheaper product I can offer.
38 00:08:32.690 ⇒ 00:08:47.990 Uttam Kumaran: And then it’s like I wanna learn. Cause I would say, very similar to you in the data world. I’m like, in every community like, I know everything that’s going on. I want to partner with like people like that and and think about. Okay, can we make a solution? That’s 10 times better, not like
39 00:08:48.070 ⇒ 00:09:10.070 Uttam Kumaran: 5% better than wonder. Right? It’s like. And this is why the conversations I’m having with Ian is like, does the technology actually like, I wouldn’t go build this unless I was like, Hey, actually, I think with the current technology, we can use a host of like Ocr and scraping tools to get any. No mapping needed, and probably like 95,
40 00:09:10.130 ⇒ 00:09:17.120 Uttam Kumaran: right? So I’m like, is this a step function in the product compared to like what is already cutting edge. And then.
41 00:09:17.240 ⇒ 00:09:36.770 Uttam Kumaran: like what’s what like, who’s like the blocker into getting that. And so that’s why I got to. I was like, Hey, actually dude, I actually think the technology just now, like just in the last year, has gone significantly better. So where you can take an image of a Pdf. And like map out everything any calls any text.
42 00:09:36.830 ⇒ 00:09:49.760 Uttam Kumaran: you know, from handwriting to whatever it can now index and leverage that data. And I’m like. I’m like, I think, there, if we can figure out that this is 10, this is 10 times better. Maybe there’s a product, if it’s 5, if it’s like.
43 00:09:49.890 ⇒ 00:09:54.019 Uttam Kumaran: you know, like one x better, 2 x better. It’s like, not worth.
44 00:09:54.390 ⇒ 00:10:02.930 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I can test. I was on. I sell the agents every day. Yeah.
45 00:10:03.080 ⇒ 00:10:16.210 Daniel Lawrence: it has to be 10 x better for them to pay, cause like, you know, you get into this. You build the product right? You get excited, you build it, and then there’s like a cost to acquire the customer. And then that’s through the fucking roof, because, like
46 00:10:16.300 ⇒ 00:10:21.469 Daniel Lawrence: it took so much. You you get all that. Ii just like agents.
47 00:10:22.400 ⇒ 00:10:50.700 Uttam Kumaran: It has to be tenx better period. Do you think it’s? Do you think it’s best to. So the one the reason I was looking at her to forward stuff was like, I’m like what I want to be tightly coupled with and like. There’s no reason for us to say we offer this, but then you have to use our like Crm, or whatever I’m like. Let’s just ride the back of like whoever’s leading in that try to build it, to do that marketplace for apps or something where we can like build it really tightly coupled. And that’s I guess a question I was gonna ask you is like, what do you think go to market
48 00:10:50.830 ⇒ 00:10:52.420 Uttam Kumaran: would be for that
49 00:10:52.520 ⇒ 00:10:57.670 Uttam Kumaran: and you know. Again I get pitched a ton of different vendors for all sorts of stuff, and
50 00:10:58.040 ⇒ 00:11:08.629 Uttam Kumaran: I always say, like, I have like so much tool fatigue, and like having 10 different software is another thing you gotta do training on so I can tightly coupled with another vendor that’s established.
51 00:11:08.900 ⇒ 00:11:14.479 Uttam Kumaran: whether it’s 4 to 4 or others, or maybe one of them wants developers to come develop on their platform.
52 00:11:14.740 ⇒ 00:11:18.330 Uttam Kumaran: Right? That’s kind of how? Yeah. So a couple of things like
53 00:11:18.360 ⇒ 00:11:23.979 Daniel Lawrence: vertigo. And so 2 top players are applied in vertical.
54 00:11:24.250 ⇒ 00:11:48.470 Daniel Lawrence: and they’re just like architecture. And their Apis are just like, so behind dude like they, they have a lot of problems like, don’t I understand what you’re saying? People have been saying it for a while, and it it’s a decade problem. And so it’s hard to work with them like they’re, you know, they just started like a new Api.
55 00:11:48.840 ⇒ 00:11:54.310 Daniel Lawrence: and like, it’s literally like 4 or 5 fields, and they can like barely get to it.
56 00:11:54.330 ⇒ 00:11:57.970 Daniel Lawrence: And they just so they like they’re large.
57 00:11:59.830 ⇒ 00:12:02.119 Daniel Lawrence: But they’re just slow.
58 00:12:02.230 ⇒ 00:12:06.869 Daniel Lawrence: And what happens is that the majority market share right of all the ages.
59 00:12:07.210 ⇒ 00:12:09.479 Daniel Lawrence: and that fucks everything up.
60 00:12:09.850 ⇒ 00:12:13.219 Daniel Lawrence: So you know, a lot of the problem is just them
61 00:12:13.700 ⇒ 00:12:26.780 Uttam Kumaran: took a different direction. I probably don’t think it’s fair right for me to say, but then they pivoted to being
62 00:12:26.790 ⇒ 00:12:39.399 Daniel Lawrence: a forms tool. but focusing mainly on accords and supplementals. Right? The reality is an agency needs that data back in a management system
63 00:12:39.740 ⇒ 00:12:45.439 Daniel Lawrence: because they needed to do other actions.
64 00:12:45.480 ⇒ 00:12:57.149 Daniel Lawrence: So that’s the problem. The problem is getting the data. I mean, like you. You know, you got so many fields. You got schedules, you know these large locations, these
65 00:12:57.150 ⇒ 00:13:17.960 Daniel Lawrence: vehicles, drivers, lists. And you got all these data underneath them. And then you need to push that data back in the management system to like do action on it. So there an agent’s thinking why the fuck, what I use wondering like, II mean, I can kinda sort of do this in my management system. But like you’re, I’m dupe entering. All this shit
66 00:13:18.060 ⇒ 00:13:25.180 Daniel Lawrence: needs to be away. So like, just as of recent, I’m not there anymore. I’m with glove box, you can see. But like
67 00:13:25.770 ⇒ 00:13:37.540 Daniel Lawrence: they just started to try to tenant like form, to form map forms because they, the reality is like the management system is just so slow at their Apis, and
68 00:13:37.970 ⇒ 00:13:41.700 Daniel Lawrence: it’s gonna take a while so that you had the form to form map
69 00:13:42.200 ⇒ 00:13:51.629 Daniel Lawrence: forms in order to get that. So there’s another company you should check out. They do. Rpa, gaia, GAYA.
70 00:13:52.760 ⇒ 00:14:03.450 Daniel Lawrence: They’re basically just a Google chrome extension that like copies, keystrokes takes the data, and then we’ll populate into carrier sites. Yeah. So
71 00:14:04.120 ⇒ 00:14:08.960 Daniel Lawrence: that’s something you should check out, because I know right up your alley
72 00:14:09.740 ⇒ 00:14:14.599 Daniel Lawrence: agents eat that shit up. They’re paying fucking Cheddar.
73 00:14:14.770 ⇒ 00:14:25.100 Uttam Kumaran: and it’s it’s literally the simplest concept. So that’s so. That’s also what I was telling him. I said. I said, Ian, the best thing is like, we don’t this the media matters when you’re selling software
74 00:14:25.160 ⇒ 00:14:35.180 Uttam Kumaran: meaning if we want to build a new website or a new desktop application that people have to open. we have to spend so much money on that. Instead, the reason why I want to
75 00:14:35.260 ⇒ 00:14:50.269 Uttam Kumaran: tro figure out what their current workflow is, find a way to make it as easy to adopt. Try is because like. And so everyone is the Internet browser. Everyone’s using vertical for. But like that seems like it’s going to be a wash like what other methods we have to kind of like weasel in.
76 00:14:50.320 ⇒ 00:14:55.299 Daniel Lawrence: You have to figure out how that works. You have to figure out
77 00:14:57.530 ⇒ 00:15:00.270 Daniel Lawrence: it’s tricky man like.
78 00:15:00.720 ⇒ 00:15:05.900 Daniel Lawrence: is there compliance problems with Gaia? And these guys, too, like, how do they
79 00:15:06.620 ⇒ 00:15:10.409 Uttam Kumaran: or the people just go rogue? And just like install it on their browser. And
80 00:15:10.550 ⇒ 00:15:16.509 Daniel Lawrence: yeah, II mean, it’s it’s seems like it’s a while West. I don’t have the answer for you there.
81 00:15:17.000 ⇒ 00:15:24.690 Daniel Lawrence: But the the goal is this, the goal is if you can get data into multiple carrier platforms at once.
82 00:15:26.550 ⇒ 00:15:29.900 Daniel Lawrence: That’s the Holy Grail, right? That’s what people want.
83 00:15:30.080 ⇒ 00:15:32.780 Daniel Lawrence: and then directly with the
84 00:15:32.850 ⇒ 00:15:35.030 Uttam Kumaran: has, it worked directly with the carriers.
85 00:15:35.260 ⇒ 00:15:58.669 Daniel Lawrence: Carriers don’t have Apis. There’s only some of them that do, and they don’t want Apis hold all the data to themselves. Just so, you know, it’s a huge fucking problem, right? Like, it’s just all this like, it’s a huge problem. So it’s like.
86 00:15:59.170 ⇒ 00:16:01.489 Daniel Lawrence: you know,
87 00:16:02.040 ⇒ 00:16:17.070 Daniel Lawrence: when it comes to the data, you know you think about it from the agent. What does the agent want? The agent wants cause. They’re the they’re the ones to distribute the product right? And they but they, what they want is they want to get a quote back as quickly as possible.
88 00:16:17.450 ⇒ 00:16:28.039 Daniel Lawrence: so you can think like, oh, I’ll go directly to the carrier. Okay? Well, the problem is, it’s like a carriers don’t have Apis. So you have to figure out ways. Maybe you scrape their sites
89 00:16:28.480 ⇒ 00:16:46.279 Daniel Lawrence: to pull data, you know, or like, take a form, scrape that form and put it in the carrier sites and do that multiple times. Like, I’m just. I’m just spit ball. But you have to figure out a way. The problem is the management system. You have to figure out a way
90 00:16:46.410 ⇒ 00:16:53.379 Daniel Lawrence: to get data to the carrier to get them a quote without having to
91 00:16:54.160 ⇒ 00:16:59.680 Daniel Lawrence: who fucking cares about the man like the away from the management system? And are there
92 00:16:59.840 ⇒ 00:17:03.719 Uttam Kumaran: are there other management systems that are like
93 00:17:04.470 ⇒ 00:17:14.250 Uttam Kumaran: that are like new, or that are gaining traction that are like that would be like more developer, friendly, or like, have an incentive to Iris.
94 00:17:15.520 ⇒ 00:17:18.849 Daniel Lawrence: apparently.
95 00:17:35.080 ⇒ 00:17:36.699 I forget. I forgot
96 00:17:37.750 ⇒ 00:17:38.540 Daniel Lawrence: with.
97 00:17:45.270 ⇒ 00:17:45.960 Daniel Lawrence: okay.
98 00:17:46.330 ⇒ 00:17:50.200 Daniel Lawrence: it’s so it’s I,
99 00:17:51.530 ⇒ 00:17:53.189 Daniel Lawrence: RYS,
100 00:17:54.230 ⇒ 00:17:56.290 Uttam Kumaran: okay, r.
101 00:17:57.330 ⇒ 00:17:59.470 Daniel Lawrence: IRYS,
102 00:18:00.180 ⇒ 00:18:01.130 Uttam Kumaran: okay.
103 00:18:02.490 ⇒ 00:18:04.000 Daniel Lawrence: So
104 00:18:04.070 ⇒ 00:18:11.829 Daniel Lawrence: okay, so do I think they’re getting traction. I don’t know how many agencies they have.
105 00:18:12.350 ⇒ 00:18:28.750 Daniel Lawrence: There’s a lot of different players out there. There’s like the now certs there’s Bruna built on salesforce but like no one’s like gaining traction on Ams 3, or applied
106 00:18:28.890 ⇒ 00:18:35.870 Uttam Kumaran: around epic. I would say, like one that’s gonna be probably pretty friendly is, gonna be Iris.
107 00:18:36.170 ⇒ 00:18:36.980 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
108 00:18:37.280 ⇒ 00:18:44.469 Daniel Lawrence: but I again like your bank. It’s like banking on a horse. Right? Yeah.
109 00:18:44.740 ⇒ 00:18:50.589 Daniel Lawrence: So that’s why I’m I’m telling you like the biggest thing I can tell you is operate
110 00:18:51.090 ⇒ 00:18:52.440 Daniel Lawrence: as if
111 00:18:53.780 ⇒ 00:18:56.349 Daniel Lawrence: you don’t need a management system.
112 00:18:56.430 ⇒ 00:19:09.630 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
113 00:19:10.350 ⇒ 00:19:12.980 Uttam Kumaran: because I had yeah, many times. Just say, like.
114 00:19:13.160 ⇒ 00:19:24.659 Uttam Kumaran: go through a whole deal new client process go through a whole renewal process. And I was like, what data gets transferred. How do you communicate that? And it’s like some stuff like, do you think the supplemental application process is
115 00:19:25.060 ⇒ 00:19:35.979 Uttam Kumaran: like one like apart from that. Do you think there’s another area you think in their day to day that’s like this is just brutally dumb, like spending time on the commercial agent.
116 00:19:36.000 ⇒ 00:19:37.020 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
117 00:19:40.530 ⇒ 00:19:47.769 Daniel Lawrence: So you’re you’re familiar with all like the different channels like Carrier the Mga to the carrier direct to care. Okay, so
118 00:19:49.840 ⇒ 00:19:51.850 Daniel Lawrence: I if I were you.
119 00:19:52.070 ⇒ 00:19:56.099 Daniel Lawrence: I would tackle it from an Mga to carrier.
120 00:19:56.920 ⇒ 00:19:58.909 Daniel Lawrence: Okay? So
121 00:19:59.330 ⇒ 00:20:08.179 Daniel Lawrence: everyone’s right now is tackling the policy holder to agent agent to like management system.
122 00:20:08.920 ⇒ 00:20:11.360 Uttam Kumaran: It’s just what’s like, the most exposed.
123 00:20:11.520 ⇒ 00:20:13.279 Uttam Kumaran: you know. Yeah.
124 00:20:13.740 ⇒ 00:20:19.300 Daniel Lawrence: no one’s doing today. The
125 00:20:19.730 ⇒ 00:20:21.990 Daniel Lawrence: Mga to carrier.
126 00:20:22.200 ⇒ 00:20:29.030 Daniel Lawrence: Okay? Cause any you know, Mgas, anything around, you know they had. Then I have to go to multiple carriers right? Cause that’s our job. So
127 00:20:29.320 ⇒ 00:20:32.549 Daniel Lawrence: If I were you.
128 00:20:32.690 ⇒ 00:20:35.830 Daniel Lawrence: I might think of that as a better route.
129 00:20:35.910 ⇒ 00:20:44.089 Daniel Lawrence: Because, you know these Mgas, they have underwriters. They take what the agent sent them, and then they have to present it to.
130 00:20:44.680 ⇒ 00:20:52.590 Daniel Lawrence: So if there’s a way, and we can talk to Ian about it. Position yourselves like that in the marketplace
131 00:20:52.880 ⇒ 00:21:07.460 Daniel Lawrence: to where you don’t have to, you know, worry about the management system or that sort of thing that might give you a leg up in that starting in that channel. Because, again, everyone’s starting
132 00:21:08.600 ⇒ 00:21:11.850 Uttam Kumaran: policy holder, agent, agent
133 00:21:12.000 ⇒ 00:21:18.969 Daniel Lawrence: to to whatever tech solution that gets. Typically, it’s biased because it’s the it’s like the most
134 00:21:19.340 ⇒ 00:21:38.260 Uttam Kumaran: it’s like, if you were to learn about insurance, you’ll learn about the individual. And then again, if you’re in, if you’re Vc. Back, they ask you, how do you make this? A 1 billion dollar company I’m interested in, like, how? Okay? If Mg, actually has the volume and
135 00:21:38.420 ⇒ 00:21:46.799 Uttam Kumaran: maybe they have some internal processes, and then maybe we go to a couple that are. Maybe it’s just internal software they use. And we license directly to them, like it’s.
136 00:21:47.010 ⇒ 00:21:54.429 Daniel Lawrence: you know, it doesn’t need to. Wholesalers would are looking for something like this. They have the money.
137 00:21:54.640 ⇒ 00:22:01.509 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, cause those have the money. They I think they have the volume. But, like again, you’re right. They it’s not. It’s like
138 00:22:01.660 ⇒ 00:22:09.369 Uttam Kumaran: they’re all. If they think about them as like a super individual broker, then yeah, it makes a lot of sense for them to maybe invest in their own internal software, or
139 00:22:09.490 ⇒ 00:22:24.010 Uttam Kumaran: buy certain things that helps them individually. Or it’s like, again, if they pay us, I’ll build it for just one of them, you know I would think about it from that perspective and approach that. You know the wholesalers and Mjs. They create their own
140 00:22:24.120 ⇒ 00:22:27.029 Daniel Lawrence: fucking portals like
141 00:22:27.220 ⇒ 00:22:38.830 Daniel Lawrence: they need to. They need to think about it differently. And Portal is like they need to make it to where they have something to where anyone can access.
142 00:22:38.940 ⇒ 00:22:44.310 Daniel Lawrence: That’s collaborative. That’s the way to approach the problem.
143 00:22:44.420 ⇒ 00:22:56.509 Daniel Lawrence: but other than that, like, I mean, just thinking about it. Cause cause the thing is like wonder. It’s trying to do it like they’re trying to do it from the policyholder to
144 00:22:56.770 ⇒ 00:23:07.460 Daniel Lawrence: yeah agent. And they’re backed. And you know, he’s back by like spark capital all and raise. Well, it’s tough. It’s tough, because again, those guys will push you to think
145 00:23:07.720 ⇒ 00:23:13.380 Uttam Kumaran: like they want you to either die or become like a trillion dollar business. There’s nothing in between.
146 00:23:13.480 ⇒ 00:23:20.339 Daniel Lawrence: It’s like a bad. It’s like a tough. It’s tough incentives, those guys push on you. It makes you make decisions
147 00:23:20.630 ⇒ 00:23:24.969 Uttam Kumaran: like that where you have to. You have to build every feature on planet Earth.
148 00:23:25.010 ⇒ 00:23:29.930 Uttam Kumaran: because one customer is like, I want to build one thing I just like worked in that industry. But
149 00:23:30.150 ⇒ 00:23:32.250 Daniel Lawrence: yeah, tough. Yeah, you know.
150 00:23:32.290 ⇒ 00:23:35.510 Daniel Lawrence: yeah, there’s a lot I need on that. Yeah. So
151 00:23:35.700 ⇒ 00:23:43.280 Daniel Lawrence: and and 1 1 one of my founders told me this one time like, Hey, there’s a bunch of problems in this, right? But it’s like how you solve it. So
152 00:23:43.690 ⇒ 00:23:49.869 Daniel Lawrence: we all know this is a problem, and everyone’s trying to solve it. It’s just like
153 00:23:50.340 ⇒ 00:23:58.090 Daniel Lawrence: you have to wedge this call wedge in the marketplace. You have to figure out where to wedge. and then, like understanding like.
154 00:23:58.320 ⇒ 00:24:11.510 Daniel Lawrence: you gotta get majority of the market. And then from there, how do you grow it? And the the way to wedge. You know what people are realizing is like, you got 10 x immediately, like, I’m telling you, Gaia.
155 00:24:11.560 ⇒ 00:24:24.209 Daniel Lawrence: fucking literally all just literally copying data keystroke. I mean the website, so basic. But you’re saying that they just kind of like taking. They’re really blowing up
156 00:24:24.570 ⇒ 00:24:25.540 Daniel Lawrence: like.
157 00:24:25.840 ⇒ 00:24:28.419 Uttam Kumaran: I mean, they’re all like a couple of people working there, too.
158 00:24:28.520 ⇒ 00:24:36.379 Daniel Lawrence: Yeah, dude, it’s not rocket science, it. It’s just like, so it’s simple, but it literally 10 x is one thing.
159 00:24:36.730 ⇒ 00:24:45.380 Daniel Lawrence: and agents love it. They’re just like I’ll fuck you. I’ll pay for this because it. I can go to 10 carrier sites and not have to do anything.
160 00:24:46.900 ⇒ 00:24:56.719 Uttam Kumaran: That’s just II hope this helps like no, no, this is so helpful because I actually don’t. I don’t need the advice of like, oh, like, here’s opportunity. It’s more like
161 00:24:56.770 ⇒ 00:25:01.979 Uttam Kumaran: that’s think about it like like a wedge. Exactly, you said in Tenx, and then also
162 00:25:02.110 ⇒ 00:25:21.659 Uttam Kumaran: creatively go in and find a way to Tenx. Like again. I’m coming in from the outside. I have. I go through every I like, I said, map out every player, and let’s think about what they need. But I think your advice on the Mj is like what we’re gonna try to look at more. And then the guy, I think I think, is totally in line with what we’re trying to do, which is like super simple, easy to adopt.
163 00:25:21.760 ⇒ 00:25:23.890 Uttam Kumaran: But like the value you get is like
164 00:25:24.000 ⇒ 00:25:29.220 Uttam Kumaran: enormous, you know, and these guys will then layer on more features, more stuff, you know.
165 00:25:31.190 ⇒ 00:25:41.849 Daniel Lawrence: Sorry I’m I’m typing something real quick to my boss. But yeah, just like you like, you gotta get creative. Everyone’s doing the same thing. They’re all going
166 00:25:41.920 ⇒ 00:26:00.699 Daniel Lawrence: attacking from the same angle. It’s the same thing like Crm software. Or like Sdr related like, lead Gen, software, it’s like just and nobody needs another. No one needs another one of those. Yeah, yeah. I mean to help out the Mgm carrier like Go that route like I mean, there’s a huge data fucking problem
167 00:26:00.780 ⇒ 00:26:05.479 Daniel Lawrence: for them, and like no one’s, no one I know is like working with them.
168 00:26:05.740 ⇒ 00:26:11.539 Uttam Kumaran: And so those the it looks like there’s like vert 4 has stuff for Mga. Is there any but like it’s just like
169 00:26:12.120 ⇒ 00:26:26.579 Daniel Lawrence: dude. That’s good. When you think of vertigo and applied their their text like they’re like they what happens? It happens all the time new comes in. It’s the sole thing they focus on.
170 00:26:26.660 ⇒ 00:26:33.399 Daniel Lawrence: They buy out that player and then have that player for 2 years to whatever 2, 3 years.
171 00:26:33.720 ⇒ 00:26:35.959 Daniel Lawrence: 2 years they still work on it.
172 00:26:36.030 ⇒ 00:26:43.669 Daniel Lawrence: After that they stop doing weekly, bi-weekly updates. And it’s the same fucking thing.
173 00:26:43.920 ⇒ 00:26:51.679 Uttam Kumaran: Now, we’re gonna monetize it, focus on sales folks on other projects.
174 00:26:51.980 ⇒ 00:26:54.939 Daniel Lawrence: But like, it takes all the innovation out.
175 00:26:55.310 ⇒ 00:26:56.130 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
176 00:26:56.760 ⇒ 00:27:02.799 Daniel Lawrence: that’s a problem in this industry. So need people to stay around and not get acquired.
177 00:27:02.880 ⇒ 00:27:17.380 Daniel Lawrence: Yeah, by the big dogs. But it’s hard when you get approached like fucking 60, 70 mill, like, I’m just excited to learn about. Because I think just again.
178 00:27:17.640 ⇒ 00:27:21.850 Uttam Kumaran: the technology is is so there right now. So I’m just like.
179 00:27:22.640 ⇒ 00:27:26.549 Uttam Kumaran: if there’s like, if there’s Pdf filling out going on, I’m like, I’m like.
180 00:27:26.640 ⇒ 00:27:29.290 Uttam Kumaran: Oh, shit! I think we can do something like.
181 00:27:29.440 ⇒ 00:27:47.289 Daniel Lawrence: yeah, I mean, there’s AI out there like, I’m not gonna lie like I told our team back at wonder I was like dude like we should have been doing Rpa, and like AI like, why haven’t we done this? But they were like, Oh, we wanna build it up from scratch. And like all this, I’m like, dude like.
182 00:27:47.360 ⇒ 00:27:56.059 Uttam Kumaran: well, cannibal. Yeah, the cannibalizes their existing product somewhere, cause you don’t need some of this stuff. You don’t need a ui. So if you’re a Ui product, maybe
183 00:27:56.200 ⇒ 00:28:00.080 Uttam Kumaran: like it doesn’t need it right? So that’s also the thing I was telling you. I’m like
184 00:28:00.090 ⇒ 00:28:07.710 Daniel Lawrence: Ui product, you meaning something that had a foundation that had a specific, you build upon it
185 00:28:07.800 ⇒ 00:28:31.590 Uttam Kumaran: and build on top of that. Then how it’s a feature. It’s like it’s a guy would be con, probably not is not a Ui product. It’s what you’re talking about. Yeah, meaning like, for example, you’re gonna see? AI come in all your software, it’s like auto complete or something. It’s like layered on top. Instead, it’s like you don’t even need a ui. It should it should handle. It’s a different product. But again, if you cannibalize your own software.
186 00:28:31.670 ⇒ 00:28:44.119 Uttam Kumaran: it’s tough, right? And if you already have built an existing software. it takes some real balls to go, rip it out and like, think about a new way of doing it. Like a chrome extension is a perfect example of like
187 00:28:44.290 ⇒ 00:28:47.249 Uttam Kumaran: you’re it just works. But again, like.
188 00:28:48.190 ⇒ 00:28:52.909 Daniel Lawrence: I promise you, people don’t care
189 00:28:53.240 ⇒ 00:28:57.850 Daniel Lawrence: like II like, I wanna build the best product, too. Right? If I I’m I’m
190 00:28:58.540 ⇒ 00:29:07.660 Daniel Lawrence: I have am like, you know, I’m not. I’m just saying hypothetically like, if I’m like my own own pro he wants. He’s ambitious, wants to build something
191 00:29:07.960 ⇒ 00:29:19.970 Daniel Lawrence: really proud of it, but it never hit home. It doesn’t like it don’t matter what I build unless the marketplace is like dude. This is fucking, changing my life.
192 00:29:20.010 ⇒ 00:29:30.179 Daniel Lawrence: Yeah, that’s why I’m giving this present, presenting this of Gaia, like it’s so fucking simple. But it they don’t care. They’re just like all this will do everything for me.
193 00:29:30.280 ⇒ 00:29:38.690 Uttam Kumaran: but it’s it’s shallow cause. If you look at the products around you, you see that everybody has a landing page, their own software and their own blah, blah! Blah! It’s like. But then you look at your life. It’s like
194 00:29:38.760 ⇒ 00:29:50.430 Uttam Kumaran: you think about the things that really change. It’s like your air pods are like holy shit. This is like tremendous, you know. There’s certain things we’re like, Oh, my God! And those are what you actually need to take the inspiration from not like
195 00:29:50.550 ⇒ 00:29:56.950 Uttam Kumaran: everybody with a landing page. And like, I try us for a demo and like another software and like.
196 00:29:57.340 ⇒ 00:30:10.270 Daniel Lawrence: And it’s just boring.
197 00:30:10.310 ⇒ 00:30:16.500 Daniel Lawrence: Try to figure out a way to go from there. And eventually, you know, maybe Mga to agency, right?
198 00:30:16.700 ⇒ 00:30:22.279 Daniel Lawrence: II know for a fact, I dude? I don’t know. Very many people are wedging it from that.
199 00:30:23.100 ⇒ 00:30:38.639 Daniel Lawrence: No, and hearing about Guy is really helpful. Yeah, I don’t care about the medium.
200 00:30:38.760 ⇒ 00:30:53.609 Daniel Lawrence: and a telegram bought, and I am thing who, whatever it just needs to do the value, I promise you. Tenx, and get the fuck away from the ui shit. It’s already a mess today like, it’s a mess. It’s gonna take.
201 00:30:53.840 ⇒ 00:31:18.449 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah. They fucked it up. They fucked it up for everyone. So well, what the hell. Oh, yeah, he’s like he’s in a meeting or something. Push it back an hour. No dude. How’d you? How’d you end up at glove box?
202 00:31:18.730 ⇒ 00:31:32.930 Daniel Lawrence: I’m at Columbus, Ohio, and I work remote the glove box based out of Denver. But I joined the glove box team. Honestly, man, because of the vision like
203 00:31:33.390 ⇒ 00:31:36.719 Daniel Lawrence: what they wanna do
204 00:31:36.790 ⇒ 00:31:38.810 Daniel Lawrence: is much bigger
205 00:31:38.850 ⇒ 00:31:44.879 Daniel Lawrence: of a problem to solve. And I wanted to be a part of it. Also for personal reasons. They’re
206 00:31:45.130 ⇒ 00:32:13.100 Daniel Lawrence: like looking at me to have more of a leadership role. So not gonna turn that down like I got what’s best for me. I mean, the reality is wonder I was too slow, and I’m not waiting so fucking. 31 years old, man, like respect to go for it off the pot right? I’m not waiting on someone else to make it happen for me. So yeah, I totally agree. But no, I appreciate you asking. And so far, so good. I’ve all. I’ve literally only been here for a week and a half.
207 00:32:13.620 ⇒ 00:32:30.890 Uttam Kumaran: Oh, no way right? So I just started. So you know you drink it from a fire hose you’re trying to figure shit out. Yeah, that’s what I’m doing right now. You seem. You seem plugged in, though it’s like, II feel really similar in like data and stuff like that. I just feed it pretty much everything that comes out. And
208 00:32:31.040 ⇒ 00:32:35.920 Uttam Kumaran: it’s gonna pay out. I didn’t even ask you like what you particularly do there, I guess I should have started with that. But
209 00:32:36.010 ⇒ 00:32:40.380 Daniel Lawrence: yeah, I’m just. I’m on the sales side of things. So
210 00:32:40.800 ⇒ 00:32:45.270 Daniel Lawrence: oh, this guy I need to reach out to this guy heroin all bad.
211 00:32:46.520 ⇒ 00:32:48.690 Daniel Lawrence: This might be someone I can reach out to.
212 00:32:49.890 ⇒ 00:32:52.050 Daniel Lawrence: So I got someone who came in
213 00:32:53.180 ⇒ 00:32:54.860 Daniel Lawrence: through our
214 00:32:56.410 ⇒ 00:32:57.710 Daniel Lawrence: website.
215 00:32:59.030 ⇒ 00:33:17.169 Daniel Lawrence: Perfect. This is a great fucking lead, and all I do is just randomly check actually, if you don’t mind. I need to take care of this before I bounce honestly.
216 00:33:17.170 ⇒ 00:33:32.460 Uttam Kumaran: hopefully, something you got out of this. That’s what I’m gonna do. So yeah for me. It’s like, I don’t want to work on anything until it has like a ton of like.
217 00:33:32.630 ⇒ 00:33:38.580 Uttam Kumaran: oh, this could actually go somewhere. So I’m like yo. All we do is keep having conversations before we put any hands on keyboard.
218 00:33:38.720 ⇒ 00:33:42.260 Uttam Kumaran: You know, this is a lot cheaper than engineering.
219 00:33:42.530 ⇒ 00:34:00.510 Daniel Lawrence: So it’s just finding out what to work on. Probably.
220 00:34:01.590 ⇒ 00:34:05.330 Daniel Lawrence: Alright, man, I’ll see you.