2025-11-11_brainforge_team_operations_strategy_disc_b57f21cf

Meeting Title: Brainforge Team Operations Strategy Discussion Date: 2025-11-11 Meeting participants: Uttam Kumaran, Gabriel Lam, Robert Tseng

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WEBVTT

1 00:01:14.060 ⇒ 00:01:14.910 Uttam Kumaran: Hey!

2 00:01:38.170 ⇒ 00:01:39.160 Gabe: Hello!

3 00:01:43.410 ⇒ 00:01:46.320 Gabe: You are muted if… That was…

4 00:01:51.400 ⇒ 00:01:52.270 Gabe: Hello?

5 00:01:55.210 ⇒ 00:01:57.810 Gabe: Utam, you are muted, if you didn’t know.

6 00:02:27.110 ⇒ 00:02:27.880 Gabe: Hmm.

7 00:02:36.270 ⇒ 00:02:37.410 Gabe: Hello, hello?

8 00:03:43.540 ⇒ 00:03:44.700 Gabe: Hello.

9 00:03:44.700 ⇒ 00:03:45.800 Robert Tseng: Hello!

10 00:03:45.960 ⇒ 00:03:50.980 Gabe: How are you? Not sure if you and Utam need to chat, or I can always just…

11 00:03:51.930 ⇒ 00:03:54.500 Gabe: He missed the meeting earlier, so…

12 00:03:54.920 ⇒ 00:03:57.649 Gabe: That’s all, but if you guys need to chat, by all means.

13 00:03:57.970 ⇒ 00:04:00.530 Robert Tseng: Oh.

14 00:04:00.530 ⇒ 00:04:01.110 Gabe: areas.

15 00:04:01.600 ⇒ 00:04:03.600 Uttam Kumaran: Hey guys, sorry, one second.

16 00:04:03.600 ⇒ 00:04:09.389 Robert Tseng: All good. I mean, I don’t… up to you, Tom, whether or not you want Gabe here. Otherwise, I got a lot of things to run through.

17 00:04:12.630 ⇒ 00:04:19.940 Uttam Kumaran: Sorry, I know, I… I just was running late to a meeting with Gabe, and then you were… you weren’t on yet, so I was like, okay, just,

18 00:04:20.890 ⇒ 00:04:25.300 Uttam Kumaran: hop on with me. Okay, okay. I owe him something.

19 00:04:25.480 ⇒ 00:04:28.509 Robert Tseng: Okay, okay, alright. Give me your name first.

20 00:04:28.510 ⇒ 00:04:33.179 Uttam Kumaran: Can we just do that first for, like, 10 minutes? I mean, you should actually see what we’re working on.

21 00:04:33.360 ⇒ 00:04:33.940 Robert Tseng: Buh-bye.

22 00:04:33.940 ⇒ 00:04:39.590 Uttam Kumaran: But, let’s just do that, and then we can jump into ours. Also, dude, I had a great meeting with Omni.

23 00:04:40.240 ⇒ 00:04:40.950 Robert Tseng: Yeah?

24 00:04:41.440 ⇒ 00:04:44.320 Uttam Kumaran: Barry Bonds-level meeting with Omni.

25 00:04:44.320 ⇒ 00:04:45.340 Robert Tseng: No way.

26 00:04:45.340 ⇒ 00:04:48.729 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, so, I mean, the guy…

27 00:04:49.410 ⇒ 00:04:56.570 Uttam Kumaran: really… I mean, one is, like, the fact that we have the deck, the video… so one, they’re down to do the video thing, they’re also down to fund it.

28 00:04:57.280 ⇒ 00:05:06.370 Uttam Kumaran: they want to do events with us, and he just is like, we want to send you as many leads as possible. I’m hopping on with them to talk about Magic Spoon.

29 00:05:07.310 ⇒ 00:05:10.740 Uttam Kumaran: The protein cereal, they want to bring us in there.

30 00:05:11.720 ⇒ 00:05:12.730 Robert Tseng: Sick.

31 00:05:12.730 ⇒ 00:05:13.390 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.

32 00:05:14.020 ⇒ 00:05:21.530 Uttam Kumaran: So I’m talking to… Manager, or, like, whoever the… Omniperson is.

33 00:05:22.410 ⇒ 00:05:24.709 Uttam Kumaran: So, yeah, it just, like, went really, really well.

34 00:05:25.660 ⇒ 00:05:26.640 Uttam Kumaran: Okay.

35 00:05:27.190 ⇒ 00:05:30.099 Uttam Kumaran: it’s a good… I basically was, like, just explaining, like.

36 00:05:30.270 ⇒ 00:05:47.860 Uttam Kumaran: how we’re thinking about partner-driven sales. I mean, the Monday meeting we had yesterday where we identified that, hey, when we go to market with a partner, things work out. Like, I basically told them that. I said… and I also explained, like, look, our number one objective is, like, we have a top-of-funnel issue, we’re converting pretty well, and so we just need more support to.

37 00:05:47.860 ⇒ 00:05:48.420 Robert Tseng: Yep.

38 00:05:48.860 ⇒ 00:05:59.050 Uttam Kumaran: go to market. So we need concise offers, we need bigger fish to go to market with. Your benefit is that we’re unique in the way we go to market, and that we can do videos and do all these things.

39 00:05:59.380 ⇒ 00:06:04.249 Uttam Kumaran: We also… Are not a vendor, like a software vendor, so people trust us.

40 00:06:05.030 ⇒ 00:06:14.040 Uttam Kumaran: And yeah, I think the guy… the guy was just like, I’ve never met anybody in SI like you guys, so he’s like, everybody else… he basically was like, everybody else, like, sucks. I’m like, no.

41 00:06:14.320 ⇒ 00:06:20.439 Uttam Kumaran: They’re not… they’re not good at marketing or sales. They all promise that they want to do events, but they end up dropping the ball.

42 00:06:20.610 ⇒ 00:06:25.070 Uttam Kumaran: And, like… Yeah, it’s just good… it’s just a good call.

43 00:06:27.430 ⇒ 00:06:32.119 Robert Tseng: Nice. I… I mean, if it’s… if it’s recorded, I’ll go, I’ll go watch it.

44 00:06:32.450 ⇒ 00:06:33.120 Uttam Kumaran: Cool.

45 00:06:33.370 ⇒ 00:06:37.100 Uttam Kumaran: Another question I had before we start is…

46 00:06:37.300 ⇒ 00:06:41.329 Uttam Kumaran: maybe I can get your help on this. The Element person is just texting me back.

47 00:06:41.330 ⇒ 00:06:42.360 Robert Tseng: Shivani?

48 00:06:42.520 ⇒ 00:06:43.710 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, can I get your…

49 00:06:43.710 ⇒ 00:06:44.090 Robert Tseng: to just.

50 00:06:44.090 ⇒ 00:06:44.500 Uttam Kumaran: Thoughts?

51 00:06:44.500 ⇒ 00:06:45.130 Robert Tseng: Okay.

52 00:06:45.380 ⇒ 00:06:47.220 Uttam Kumaran: Can I get your thoughts on, like, some of these…

53 00:06:48.090 ⇒ 00:06:49.350 Robert Tseng: Questions?

54 00:06:52.060 ⇒ 00:06:53.850 Uttam Kumaran: So I’m gonna reply to this.

55 00:06:56.670 ⇒ 00:07:01.039 Robert Tseng: The cost visibility, dude, we could do… like, that’s… that’s what we did for Javi, so…

56 00:07:01.040 ⇒ 00:07:01.430 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.

57 00:07:01.430 ⇒ 00:07:03.449 Robert Tseng: You know, we should just, like, share, like, a…

58 00:07:03.880 ⇒ 00:07:08.079 Robert Tseng: I mean, I guess that’s what came to mind immediately when I saw that.

59 00:07:21.270 ⇒ 00:07:29.670 Uttam Kumaran: One convo, people are having… is… .

60 00:07:30.490 ⇒ 00:07:35.279 Robert Tseng: Yeah, there’s no way that you can get to that level of granularity without… without a funneling.

61 00:07:39.930 ⇒ 00:07:47.200 Robert Tseng: Right, so you can… you can kind of share, like, oh yeah, we worked with… I mean, I don’t know if… I don’t know if you want to name drop or not, but, you know, we worked with another brand that

62 00:07:48.560 ⇒ 00:07:50.179 Uttam Kumaran: Well, she definitely mentioned

63 00:07:50.530 ⇒ 00:07:56.199 Uttam Kumaran: Another buzz today has been the efficacy of marketing spend across channels. Thank you, you’re… think you’re…

64 00:07:56.370 ⇒ 00:07:59.089 Uttam Kumaran: Case study… Xavi case study touches on that.

65 00:07:59.090 ⇒ 00:08:08.350 Robert Tseng: Okay, let’s go. Yeah, this is… this is… they’re… they’re in the same vertical as Javi. Javi does drinks, too, I guess.

66 00:08:08.350 ⇒ 00:08:11.419 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, and Athletic Greens, and like…

67 00:08:11.420 ⇒ 00:08:12.050 Robert Tseng: Yeah.

68 00:08:12.300 ⇒ 00:08:19.989 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, so I told her, I said, you guys probably don’t have a margin prom, you’re selling powder. Yeah. What you have a prom on is capturing demand, effectively.

69 00:08:20.250 ⇒ 00:08:20.940 Robert Tseng: Yeah.

70 00:08:20.940 ⇒ 00:08:23.330 Uttam Kumaran: They haven’t hit the limits there,

71 00:08:23.510 ⇒ 00:08:25.890 Uttam Kumaran: How do we venture out better cost visibility?

72 00:08:26.130 ⇒ 00:08:35.519 Uttam Kumaran: Exactly. This may or may not hinge on having COGS data in one place.

73 00:08:35.789 ⇒ 00:08:40.359 Uttam Kumaran: You may have this in Shopify, but…

74 00:08:40.360 ⇒ 00:08:48.109 Robert Tseng: Shopify doesn’t have their… doesn’t have their full costs, and so, yeah, the cost has to be stitched in from other places as well.

75 00:08:48.820 ⇒ 00:09:04.439 Robert Tseng: that was the problem with Javi, right? They tried to throw all their costs into Shopify, and then, like, get that piped into Amplitude, but, it didn’t… like, they… you know, the whole shipping, like, shipping rates were off of a rate card, like, it wasn’t actually their true shipping rates.

76 00:09:04.850 ⇒ 00:09:13.480 Robert Tseng: And then, like, You know, they… they… they’re just… from the reporting out of that, they weren’t, like…

77 00:09:13.890 ⇒ 00:09:30.520 Robert Tseng: They’ve… there are all these, like, layered assumptions into, like, how they… like, where they move discounts, like, additional products that are, like, add-ons to purchase, like, you know, random other pieces to their… to their cost profile that they were not able to see in the… in the existing reporting.

78 00:09:31.640 ⇒ 00:09:33.719 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, so let me see if we have any…

79 00:09:47.180 ⇒ 00:09:50.890 Uttam Kumaran: We don’t have a deck on that, but we should get that.

80 00:09:54.850 ⇒ 00:09:55.920 Uttam Kumaran: Let’s see…

81 00:10:16.230 ⇒ 00:10:20.640 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, we don’t have anything on COGS, but I’ll… I’ll request it.

82 00:10:21.500 ⇒ 00:10:27.400 Uttam Kumaran: I guess that’s what we’ll be walking through today, Gabe, is how do we get more case studies out.

83 00:10:27.660 ⇒ 00:10:31.819 Uttam Kumaran: But, okay, let me just respond to this last thing.

84 00:11:09.310 ⇒ 00:11:10.190 Robert Tseng: From what?

85 00:11:19.180 ⇒ 00:11:24.550 Uttam Kumaran: And then the other thing I’m gonna send to her is her options, so tool comparisons…

86 00:11:27.410 ⇒ 00:11:29.680 Robert Tseng: How did you get connected to her again?

87 00:11:30.770 ⇒ 00:11:33.899 Uttam Kumaran: Remember I told you I met that woman at that, like, punk rock concert?

88 00:11:33.900 ⇒ 00:11:34.990 Robert Tseng: Oh, yeah.

89 00:11:35.730 ⇒ 00:11:42.320 Uttam Kumaran: She, there’s some CPG… women in CPG group that that person is in.

90 00:11:42.740 ⇒ 00:11:48.269 Uttam Kumaran: And Shivani was like, can anyone help me with data stuff? Called her, and she’s like, oh, we only do health.

91 00:11:48.780 ⇒ 00:11:53.240 Uttam Kumaran: Again, that story doesn’t really make sense, but yeah, and that woman…

92 00:11:54.310 ⇒ 00:11:58.590 Uttam Kumaran: she knows me, and she… yeah, so… I grabbed coffee with her, like, 2 months ago.

93 00:11:59.980 ⇒ 00:12:01.530 Uttam Kumaran: Kind of talk shop about consulting.

94 00:12:01.530 ⇒ 00:12:04.010 Robert Tseng: Yeah, I was like, this girl’s background is all health.

95 00:12:04.560 ⇒ 00:12:09.809 Uttam Kumaran: Oh, so how does Shivani… yeah, so, oh, Shivani may be in a health… maybe she’s in a health…

96 00:12:10.890 ⇒ 00:12:11.720 Uttam Kumaran: group.

97 00:12:11.820 ⇒ 00:12:16.359 Uttam Kumaran: And yeah, I asked her, she said she just left health because it sucks, it’s like a puffed-up industry.

98 00:12:16.480 ⇒ 00:12:18.370 Uttam Kumaran: Like, they’re trying to maximize

99 00:12:19.020 ⇒ 00:12:30.789 Uttam Kumaran: like, the staffing is really hard, and they don’t get paid as much, but all the metrics just lead you to try to optimize those people more, and you’re capped on your revenue by Medicaid, so you can’t really do much.

100 00:12:31.260 ⇒ 00:12:32.509 Robert Tseng: What’s her, like…

101 00:12:33.650 ⇒ 00:12:34.849 Uttam Kumaran: Those are the gist.

102 00:12:37.620 ⇒ 00:12:39.979 Robert Tseng: Yeah, she has… she has, like, the po… like, the…

103 00:12:40.230 ⇒ 00:12:45.270 Robert Tseng: the poster child of a Wharton MBA background.

104 00:12:45.670 ⇒ 00:12:48.650 Uttam Kumaran: Consulting, goes to Wharton.

105 00:12:48.650 ⇒ 00:12:57.729 Robert Tseng: then decides to go work for a healthcare company, and then, like, burns out in a couple years, and goes back into, like, media entertainment, or CPG.

106 00:12:58.430 ⇒ 00:12:58.860 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.

107 00:12:58.860 ⇒ 00:13:05.769 Robert Tseng: I know, like, I know, like, 5 other people, same trajectory. That’s funny. She just added me on LinkedIn, so I was just taking.

108 00:13:05.770 ⇒ 00:13:06.659 Uttam Kumaran: Oh, okay.

109 00:13:13.580 ⇒ 00:13:17.110 Uttam Kumaran: The other thing I’m gonna… last thing I’m gonna do is just grab these.

110 00:13:22.110 ⇒ 00:13:23.539 Robert Tseng: Oh, it’s Veterans Day!

111 00:13:24.540 ⇒ 00:13:25.420 Uttam Kumaran: It is.

112 00:13:28.800 ⇒ 00:13:32.680 Uttam Kumaran: I, I forgot to say anything or do anything about that.

113 00:13:33.090 ⇒ 00:13:33.760 Robert Tseng: Yeah.

114 00:13:42.340 ⇒ 00:13:46.490 Uttam Kumaran: ETL tool, data warehouse, what else did I do? ETL BI.

115 00:14:34.970 ⇒ 00:14:38.880 Uttam Kumaran: Okay, cool. Sorry, Gabe, you can go ahead.

116 00:14:41.990 ⇒ 00:14:43.059 Uttam Kumaran: It’s been a fun day.

117 00:14:47.650 ⇒ 00:14:50.369 Gabe: As in, I can hop off, or you wanna see what we got going on?

118 00:14:50.370 ⇒ 00:14:52.090 Uttam Kumaran: No, I wanna see what you got going on!

119 00:14:52.090 ⇒ 00:14:53.960 Gabe: Alright.

120 00:14:54.200 ⇒ 00:14:55.060 Uttam Kumaran: Duh.

121 00:14:55.710 ⇒ 00:14:58.790 Gabe: I’m just checking to make sure. I don’t know.

122 00:14:58.790 ⇒ 00:15:03.839 Uttam Kumaran: No, you can go ahead and head on out, that’s… Imagine I said that.

123 00:15:04.790 ⇒ 00:15:05.840 Uttam Kumaran: That’d be so weird.

124 00:15:05.840 ⇒ 00:15:11.989 Gabe: I don’t know if you saw what Mustafa had done on…

125 00:15:12.830 ⇒ 00:15:13.920 Uttam Kumaran: I did not.

126 00:15:13.920 ⇒ 00:15:17.319 Gabe: Loom, but I can give you a brief overview.

127 00:15:18.020 ⇒ 00:15:25.619 Gabe: Nice. So… Just quickly, let’s see… This is just a quick…

128 00:15:26.290 ⇒ 00:15:29.060 Gabe: Flow of what we’ve got going on about

129 00:15:30.890 ⇒ 00:15:38.290 Gabe: what this… the end of the week will look like. The main focus has been on this piece, this interview interface.

130 00:15:38.290 ⇒ 00:15:41.640 Uttam Kumaran: And can you brief Robert really quick on, like, what it is we’re solving for?

131 00:15:41.640 ⇒ 00:15:43.250 Gabe: Okay, so…

132 00:15:44.390 ⇒ 00:15:56.900 Gabe: there’s a lot of… there’s a big backlog of case studies, there’s a lot of case studies that either aren’t reaching the right people, or there’s just a lot of wins from projects that are done or closed that aren’t being captured. And then…

133 00:15:57.090 ⇒ 00:16:00.420 Gabe: Hannah has been saying that, you know, it takes a long time to…

134 00:16:00.570 ⇒ 00:16:07.849 Gabe: go from, like, one of you guys pinging her to be like, hey, we want this kind of case study out for these kind of leads, or to just…

135 00:16:08.450 ⇒ 00:16:12.799 Gabe: Have as many wins to show other people at different points.

136 00:16:13.080 ⇒ 00:16:19.280 Gabe: of… whether it’s lead gen, whether it’s go-to-market, whatever. And so, the big…

137 00:16:20.520 ⇒ 00:16:34.410 Gabe: sort of pain point is, like, getting what we’ve done already into actual case studies. So that’s the goal of this week, to have some sort of assistant, to get those out as soon as possible, and to really

138 00:16:34.660 ⇒ 00:16:36.180 Gabe: Distribute all this.

139 00:16:36.390 ⇒ 00:16:40.190 Gabe: information out. A big part of her

140 00:16:40.470 ⇒ 00:16:43.589 Gabe: Backlog comes from interviewing people.

141 00:16:44.490 ⇒ 00:16:47.740 Gabe: Where she needs to set a time, go through a bunch of questions.

142 00:16:47.940 ⇒ 00:16:54.789 Gabe: And Then take that transcript and turn them into, you know, all these sales assets that we see.

143 00:16:54.940 ⇒ 00:17:01.179 Gabe: And so… We are trying to just create a platform that automates a lot of it.

144 00:17:01.400 ⇒ 00:17:09.399 Gabe: And eventually gets her the copy that she needs for review, and then she can send that to design, and get it designed, and…

145 00:17:09.579 ⇒ 00:17:18.700 Gabe: actually done in Figma, which will then be done. A big part of that is… because of that, a big part of this is the interview interface, which Mustafa had been working on yesterday.

146 00:17:19.030 ⇒ 00:17:28.980 Gabe: Currently, the… It… we need to push something into Heroku, but if you… if we quickly look at

147 00:17:29.500 ⇒ 00:17:37.420 Gabe: The loom, which we can also, ping you guys on. Essentially.

148 00:17:37.690 ⇒ 00:17:42.340 Gabe: We… you would receive a link to a page such as this.

149 00:17:42.590 ⇒ 00:17:55.979 Gabe: And you would have a voice chat with an AI agent that has the context of the project, has the context of anything else you want to put into it, and goes through, essentially, the questions that Hannah would go through.

150 00:17:56.110 ⇒ 00:18:12.129 Gabe: So all these questions that we have in Notion, it would go through all of that, and so Hannah doesn’t have to set a time, she doesn’t have to, like, be like, hey, are you free at this time? You just get a Slack link, and whoever’s notified, whether it’s, you know, one of you guys, or Amber, or Sam.

151 00:18:12.290 ⇒ 00:18:15.249 Gabe: they’d get that, and…

152 00:18:15.880 ⇒ 00:18:21.249 Gabe: essentially have a chat with an agent. And so this is him just talking pretty much the whole time.

153 00:18:23.180 ⇒ 00:18:33.610 Gabe: the… where we got to yesterday was… this was up, and we had the transcript saved. Today, we’re working on getting the transcript through, the…

154 00:18:34.100 ⇒ 00:18:39.789 Gabe: Sorry, the… the case study architect and the… Where was it?

155 00:18:41.150 ⇒ 00:18:48.850 Gabe: The case study architect and the design managing… design marketing assistant to really get the copy to…

156 00:18:49.020 ⇒ 00:18:52.249 Gabe: Something that aligns with the brand, and something that actually works.

157 00:18:52.490 ⇒ 00:18:55.840 Gabe: as a copy, and so we’re getting feedback from Hannah.

158 00:18:56.070 ⇒ 00:19:02.880 Gabe: About that right now, exactly. But… If I look onto Slack.

159 00:19:05.160 ⇒ 00:19:06.530 Uttam Kumaran: Interesting, okay.

160 00:19:06.870 ⇒ 00:19:09.780 Gabe: So… She gives them.

161 00:19:09.780 ⇒ 00:19:11.600 Robert Tseng: For me, this is, like, Hanna bought.

162 00:19:11.960 ⇒ 00:19:14.760 Gabe: It is a henna bot, basically, because.

163 00:19:14.760 ⇒ 00:19:18.199 Uttam Kumaran: This is Free Hanna bot. This is the Free Up Hanna time bot.

164 00:19:18.200 ⇒ 00:19:20.339 Gabe: Yeah, she’s the, she’s the baby.

165 00:19:22.550 ⇒ 00:19:26.149 Gabe: So this is what it comes out as now. This is a sort of…

166 00:19:26.750 ⇒ 00:19:28.370 Uttam Kumaran: We can’t see…

167 00:19:28.370 ⇒ 00:19:29.680 Gabe: Oh, sorry.

168 00:19:29.680 ⇒ 00:19:33.210 Uttam Kumaran: I realize you can’t see it, I realize I’m sharing the wrong thing.

169 00:19:34.180 ⇒ 00:19:40.420 Gabe: So at the end of all this, this is what we sort of get.

170 00:19:42.450 ⇒ 00:19:52.070 Gabe: it’s a first pass at the copy. Hannah gave some comments for us, so we’re working through that right now to refine the agent that actually automates this.

171 00:19:52.350 ⇒ 00:19:56.819 Gabe: And that’s the goal. For the MVP,

172 00:19:57.700 ⇒ 00:20:03.410 Gabe: We want to get this out, as well as a way to either filter by project or by people.

173 00:20:03.710 ⇒ 00:20:18.010 Gabe: Or by status, so that whoever’s in marketing, namely Hannah, can just go through and be like, okay, we’re missing these people, or we have these case studies that are still ongoing, or I need to send these case studies to sign, to get into Figma.

174 00:20:18.520 ⇒ 00:20:19.120 Uttam Kumaran: Okay.

175 00:20:19.880 ⇒ 00:20:24.229 Gabe: that’s essentially where we are, and that’s what we hope to get out in one week, and I think it’s…

176 00:20:24.890 ⇒ 00:20:26.660 Gabe: I think we’re making good progress.

177 00:20:26.930 ⇒ 00:20:30.829 Uttam Kumaran: Can I see the, the fig jam?

178 00:20:30.830 ⇒ 00:20:31.620 Gabe: Yes.

179 00:20:41.070 ⇒ 00:20:47.650 Uttam Kumaran: Okay, cool. So, I’ll just walk through it myself, so I just… and then you can tell me if I get anything wrong.

180 00:20:48.780 ⇒ 00:20:55.420 Uttam Kumaran: Okay, so we have the assistant homepage, a new case study, we have the dialogue box.

181 00:20:55.620 ⇒ 00:20:59.299 Uttam Kumaran: Okay, client project interviews duration description.

182 00:21:02.420 ⇒ 00:21:06.529 Uttam Kumaran: Oh, so okay, so this is… for Hannah to request.

183 00:21:07.490 ⇒ 00:21:09.730 Uttam Kumaran: Or anybody to make a request.

184 00:21:10.180 ⇒ 00:21:14.770 Gabe: We believe… yeah. Okay, okay. So, the part that we were talking about this morning is…

185 00:21:14.890 ⇒ 00:21:17.829 Gabe: The additional context part, like, who’s supposed to give it.

186 00:21:18.110 ⇒ 00:21:22.729 Gabe: You know, does the interviewee put some stuff into it at the beginning versus do it beforehand?

187 00:21:22.730 ⇒ 00:21:24.100 Uttam Kumaran: I see, okay.

188 00:21:25.400 ⇒ 00:21:32.080 Gabe: But I think this is just to really figure out who gets… who… who is sent these links for these interviews.

189 00:21:34.320 ⇒ 00:21:35.300 Uttam Kumaran: Okay.

190 00:21:35.980 ⇒ 00:21:41.350 Uttam Kumaran: So, and then… Oh, okay, so I… I’m… I have, sort of.

191 00:21:41.520 ⇒ 00:21:44.649 Uttam Kumaran: I’m seeing Mustafa’s loom as well. Okay, so that makes sense.

192 00:21:50.830 ⇒ 00:21:53.040 Uttam Kumaran: And does it… is it talk… does it talk back?

193 00:21:53.320 ⇒ 00:21:54.590 Gabe: It does.

194 00:21:54.590 ⇒ 00:21:55.310 Uttam Kumaran: Nice.

195 00:21:55.460 ⇒ 00:21:57.930 Gabe: which is sort of the goal, I think we noticed that

196 00:21:59.260 ⇒ 00:22:02.399 Gabe: There’s more of a personality to the interviewer.

197 00:22:03.670 ⇒ 00:22:10.600 Gabe: And sometimes communication comes across a little quicker, as opposed to, like, getting a questionnaire and having to type everything out.

198 00:22:11.290 ⇒ 00:22:11.710 Uttam Kumaran: at all.

199 00:22:11.710 ⇒ 00:22:13.340 Gabe: Sort of to mimic what’s…

200 00:22:13.740 ⇒ 00:22:21.659 Gabe: the current workflow is. I personally feel like there is a space for written text, because you can go into more detail, which might be helpful for case studies.

201 00:22:22.060 ⇒ 00:22:29.299 Gabe: But to sort of emulate the interview, experience. We went with… A voice for now.

202 00:22:29.850 ⇒ 00:22:33.780 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I agree. I think my biggest piece is, like, we’re gonna have,

203 00:22:35.290 ⇒ 00:22:51.370 Uttam Kumaran: we’re just not that many people, and so we’re gonna have very few shots on goal, so I want to make sure that when someone sits down to do this, we get as much out of them. It’s always possible for us to add more after the fact, like, let’s throw in every single

204 00:22:51.470 ⇒ 00:22:55.769 Uttam Kumaran: Document, or meeting, related meeting, or whatever.

205 00:22:57.300 ⇒ 00:23:05.490 Uttam Kumaran: But if you think about the core user as, like, the average engineer on a project, I want to make sure that it almost requires… it’s basically, like.

206 00:23:05.690 ⇒ 00:23:08.050 Uttam Kumaran: Really asking them all these things.

207 00:23:08.080 ⇒ 00:23:09.430 Gabe: Yeah. And…

208 00:23:09.500 ⇒ 00:23:12.509 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I feel like if you guys get the core flow down.

209 00:23:12.700 ⇒ 00:23:15.139 Uttam Kumaran: If you guys get this to work.

210 00:23:15.480 ⇒ 00:23:19.669 Uttam Kumaran: Totally, I’m game for, like, these pieces I feel totally fine on.

211 00:23:19.840 ⇒ 00:23:23.479 Uttam Kumaran: I think the biggest, to kind of give you a sense of, like.

212 00:23:24.010 ⇒ 00:23:26.510 Uttam Kumaran: Right now, our current process is…

213 00:23:26.900 ⇒ 00:23:31.640 Uttam Kumaran: Robert and I… I think I may have told you this, I was like, Robert and I are talking to a client.

214 00:23:31.870 ⇒ 00:23:33.180 Uttam Kumaran: They’re coming up…

215 00:23:33.200 ⇒ 00:23:34.959 Gabe: And you just want something to, like, show up.

216 00:23:34.960 ⇒ 00:23:40.080 Uttam Kumaran: Do we have any case studies on so… remember we did so-and-so for so-and-so? Do we have anything about that?

217 00:23:40.360 ⇒ 00:23:52.239 Uttam Kumaran: And so we’ve… we’ve… and now it’s actually a little bit better in that on Mondays, I generally ask some people, and Hannah now has tickets for all this backlog of stuff, but now we’re in the next logjam, which is…

218 00:23:52.630 ⇒ 00:23:55.540 Uttam Kumaran: Okay, she’s only able to do 2 or 3 of these interviews.

219 00:23:55.860 ⇒ 00:24:01.680 Uttam Kumaran: I mean, they’re all probably 30 minutes to an hour, and of course, the tax of just being on Zoom and doing stuff.

220 00:24:02.810 ⇒ 00:24:06.489 Uttam Kumaran: So… Yeah, and, you know, even if,

221 00:24:06.770 ⇒ 00:24:09.529 Uttam Kumaran: The thing is, even if this is not perfect.

222 00:24:10.880 ⇒ 00:24:13.289 Uttam Kumaran: This is really, like, what you need.

223 00:24:13.660 ⇒ 00:24:14.250 Gabe: Yeah.

224 00:24:14.580 ⇒ 00:24:21.610 Uttam Kumaran: Once you have this, you guys can make this part… we can keep iterating on this. Right. Right? Over and over and over again.

225 00:24:21.610 ⇒ 00:24:22.500 Gabe: Yeah, you can even.

226 00:24:22.500 ⇒ 00:24:23.310 Uttam Kumaran: This is something you can’t.

227 00:24:23.310 ⇒ 00:24:24.230 Gabe: industry, yeah.

228 00:24:24.230 ⇒ 00:24:25.820 Uttam Kumaran: Do it again, yeah, right?

229 00:24:26.160 ⇒ 00:24:29.669 Uttam Kumaran: Okay, cool. Yeah, I feel like…

230 00:24:30.970 ⇒ 00:24:34.910 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I don’t have much comments, I guess. Tell me what… what are you,

231 00:24:35.140 ⇒ 00:24:37.279 Uttam Kumaran: Do you have any worries, or what do you think?

232 00:24:38.300 ⇒ 00:24:41.989 Gabe: I think… I think it’s good, I think…

233 00:24:42.430 ⇒ 00:24:46.999 Gabe: What I would not want is a duplicate of the marketing assets page.

234 00:24:47.680 ⇒ 00:24:53.540 Gabe: Where… I don’t really see this as, like, a…

235 00:24:53.640 ⇒ 00:24:56.330 Gabe: Hey, these are all the case studies that we have out.

236 00:24:56.330 ⇒ 00:24:59.449 Uttam Kumaran: Totally, yeah. This is not the, glossary for that, yeah.

237 00:24:59.450 ⇒ 00:25:03.650 Gabe: No, not at all. This is more just to… Get us to a…

238 00:25:04.060 ⇒ 00:25:08.110 Gabe: to the copy as soon as possible. And so I think…

239 00:25:10.000 ⇒ 00:25:17.209 Gabe: given the velocity that exists already, I think we’ll be at a point either tomorrow or Thursday to really focus on

240 00:25:18.160 ⇒ 00:25:21.459 Gabe: The homepage, and just be like, okay, this is where you’re gonna use it.

241 00:25:21.570 ⇒ 00:25:30.150 Gabe: this is where the copy is, and then this is where we go to design. Cool. And then to really allow the marketing assets page to be for you, for…

242 00:25:30.550 ⇒ 00:25:40.500 Gabe: Robert and Utam, you guys, the… that’ll be… I think that’ll be the place where you guys actually are on a call, are pitching, and then you, you know, have additional filters for, like.

243 00:25:41.290 ⇒ 00:25:42.109 Gabe: client, project.

244 00:25:42.110 ⇒ 00:25:52.140 Uttam Kumaran: Well, I just… I just did that, I just did that today, right? Like, I just had to grab all those things for Element right now, so… exactly right. I mean, again, Robert, what I tasked the team to do is, I said.

245 00:25:52.550 ⇒ 00:25:58.759 Uttam Kumaran: You should be able, at the end of this week, you should be able to use this to do a case study about building this.

246 00:25:59.070 ⇒ 00:25:59.710 Robert Tseng: Hmm.

247 00:26:00.720 ⇒ 00:26:15.659 Uttam Kumaran: like, Gabe… and I said, Gabe, you should record… you should record the case study about how, in one week, we delivered a case study assistant. And you should use the case study assistant to write… to get generated. I said, if you can do that, then it’s…

248 00:26:16.150 ⇒ 00:26:18.239 Uttam Kumaran: then it’s good, right? Yeah.

249 00:26:18.480 ⇒ 00:26:19.290 Uttam Kumaran: So…

250 00:26:22.620 ⇒ 00:26:25.820 Uttam Kumaran: Okay, I feel good about this, yeah.

251 00:26:26.180 ⇒ 00:26:27.550 Uttam Kumaran: Let me know what else you need.

252 00:26:27.900 ⇒ 00:26:34.499 Gabe: I think we’re good. We’ve got everything on Slack, and we’re just communicating any updates there, so…

253 00:26:34.500 ⇒ 00:26:39.129 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, and also, maybe if me… if you want, I think, one thing that me and you can maybe meet

254 00:26:39.310 ⇒ 00:26:41.999 Uttam Kumaran: Thursday or Friday, and I can,

255 00:26:43.660 ⇒ 00:26:49.849 Uttam Kumaran: walk you through maybe next week’s PRD, or we can maybe… we can batch a couple and talk through it together.

256 00:26:50.030 ⇒ 00:26:56.379 Uttam Kumaran: Because I think it’s actually probably getting to the point where you can also… you also will start to see other parts of the company, and…

257 00:26:56.610 ⇒ 00:27:03.230 Uttam Kumaran: it doesn’t just have to be with me to start writing some of these. Like, I can give you the nugget of, like, what it is we’re going for.

258 00:27:03.520 ⇒ 00:27:07.780 Uttam Kumaran: And now that you kind of have all the relationships, I could… I could make sure that I’m unblocked.

259 00:27:08.300 ⇒ 00:27:09.390 Uttam Kumaran: I’m blocking you there.

260 00:27:09.390 ⇒ 00:27:11.940 Gabe: Happy to do that. We can… we can find a time.

261 00:27:12.260 ⇒ 00:27:13.760 Uttam Kumaran: What do you think about,

262 00:27:14.090 ⇒ 00:27:15.999 Uttam Kumaran: What do you think about everything so far?

263 00:27:17.690 ⇒ 00:27:28.140 Gabe: I’m… like, it’s great learning a lot, I think the team is fantastic, and they… Everyone’s…

264 00:27:28.480 ⇒ 00:27:34.840 Gabe: first of all, friendly, and I’m like, I don’t feel bad asking a dumb question, which is oftentimes, in a big company, kind of like…

265 00:27:35.850 ⇒ 00:27:51.100 Gabe: The worst. The blocker, and you’re like, is this the right person to ask? Or, like, no, everyone’s sort of been pretty open, either async or even just hopping on a call, so that’s been good. Truly blown away by the velocity, honestly, like…

266 00:27:51.260 ⇒ 00:27:57.489 Gabe: the… Yeah, I’m used to just, as I’m sure, you know, you’ve experienced, like, the red tape, and…

267 00:27:57.660 ⇒ 00:28:04.289 Gabe: the approvals, which have their, you know, have their space and have their reasons, but, yeah, I think…

268 00:28:05.170 ⇒ 00:28:07.040 Gabe: It’s been pretty impressive to see.

269 00:28:07.730 ⇒ 00:28:10.990 Gabe: how quickly you guys get stuff out.

270 00:28:11.440 ⇒ 00:28:21.009 Gabe: I… I spent, like, the last half hour looking… I missed the GTM meeting yesterday, and I thought that was really cool, just to see, you know, partnerships and… Nice.

271 00:28:21.600 ⇒ 00:28:26.929 Gabe: You know, how you guys are trying to figure out what to do, in this, like, end of Q4?

272 00:28:27.150 ⇒ 00:28:32.550 Gabe: And, I mean, that’s a whole side that I’m typically not… exposed to, so…

273 00:28:32.700 ⇒ 00:28:37.469 Gabe: I have also, like, a personal interest in just being like, hey, I’m interested in how people… how we sell.

274 00:28:37.840 ⇒ 00:28:39.270 Gabe: offerings, and like…

275 00:28:40.010 ⇒ 00:28:48.190 Gabe: Yeah, like, you had a comment about, like, you know, it’s very different coming in as an AI consultant versus, like, a service software provider, and, like, the types of…

276 00:28:48.330 ⇒ 00:28:53.589 Gabe: Conversations you guys have, or, like, the types of, perspectives that they see about you.

277 00:28:53.750 ⇒ 00:29:00.840 Gabe: And, like, you can leverage the fact that, like, hey, we’re not here to sell you Something, specifically.

278 00:29:00.970 ⇒ 00:29:05.729 Gabe: Yeah, just some thoughts.

279 00:29:05.990 ⇒ 00:29:08.809 Uttam Kumaran: That’s great. That’s what I love to hear. I mean, I… I think…

280 00:29:08.810 ⇒ 00:29:09.570 Robert Tseng: Nice.

281 00:29:09.570 ⇒ 00:29:19.239 Uttam Kumaran: it takes time, it takes a… similarly, like, I think you’re matching our rate of our velocity really well. It’s not often that people come in and do this much damage.

282 00:29:19.390 ⇒ 00:29:25.879 Uttam Kumaran: This quickly. So, like, this is very rare. Like, this whole situation, like, yes, you’re totally right.

283 00:29:26.060 ⇒ 00:29:28.190 Uttam Kumaran: People don’t ship software this fast.

284 00:29:28.420 ⇒ 00:29:29.790 Uttam Kumaran: That’s because they’re…

285 00:29:30.130 ⇒ 00:29:47.409 Uttam Kumaran: not smart enough to do that. You know, we live in… this is, like, this is… what you’re seeing is exactly what every news article is about on why AI is allowing for businesses to accelerate and start to build software themselves.

286 00:29:47.500 ⇒ 00:29:58.440 Uttam Kumaran: Previously, we would have to go to the market to find a solution like this, and it would not have existed, or I would have had to hire a product manager, a front end, a back end, a full-stack, DevOps.

287 00:29:58.980 ⇒ 00:30:01.340 Uttam Kumaran: to build this for us, right? Now…

288 00:30:01.830 ⇒ 00:30:08.510 Uttam Kumaran: You don’t need that, and so this is the exact case study of, like, the vision for AI, so you’re kind of seeing it firsthand.

289 00:30:10.270 ⇒ 00:30:10.810 Gabe: Yeah.

290 00:30:12.040 ⇒ 00:30:16.459 Gabe: Alright, I know you guys are busy, so I’ll let you guys be, and you can…

291 00:30:16.690 ⇒ 00:30:19.290 Gabe: Check off whatever lists you guys have.

292 00:30:19.290 ⇒ 00:30:20.199 Uttam Kumaran: Thank you, dude.

293 00:30:20.510 ⇒ 00:30:25.010 Gabe: Yeah, but it’s been… it’s been a blast. I’m, like, honestly, it’s been… it’s been great.

294 00:30:25.370 ⇒ 00:30:27.010 Uttam Kumaran: Cool. Oh, that’s really nice to hear.

295 00:30:27.760 ⇒ 00:30:28.730 Robert Tseng: Yay!

296 00:30:28.730 ⇒ 00:30:33.740 Gabe: Yeah! Oh, shoot, my camera’s not on. Let’s go!

297 00:30:33.740 ⇒ 00:30:36.950 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah! Alright.

298 00:30:36.950 ⇒ 00:30:38.919 Gabe: I appreciate it, guys. I’ll let you guys be.

299 00:30:39.010 ⇒ 00:30:39.969 Uttam Kumaran: See you soon.

300 00:30:40.350 ⇒ 00:30:41.030 Robert Tseng: I gave…

301 00:30:41.030 ⇒ 00:30:41.560 Gabe: Bye!

302 00:30:43.980 ⇒ 00:30:45.679 Uttam Kumaran: How do you, how do you know, Gabe?

303 00:30:46.270 ⇒ 00:30:50.720 Robert Tseng: His girlfriend is Rachel’s, like, best friend.

304 00:30:50.720 ⇒ 00:30:56.000 Uttam Kumaran: Oh, see, I thought there was… I didn’t ask you originally what the connection was, like, maybe it’s just another LA homie.

305 00:30:56.330 ⇒ 00:30:58.159 Robert Tseng: But he never said… he didn’t, like…

306 00:30:58.160 ⇒ 00:31:08.299 Uttam Kumaran: I didn’t… I usually grill people, but I’m like, I don’t know, I feel like Robert may… I thought he just was another person that maybe reached out to you. Yeah. That’s really good. Yeah, so you’re 2 for 2 on homies.

307 00:31:08.840 ⇒ 00:31:10.280 Uttam Kumaran: helping off the company.

308 00:31:10.470 ⇒ 00:31:10.930 Robert Tseng: Yeah.

309 00:31:10.930 ⇒ 00:31:14.690 Uttam Kumaran: I… I may be… am I… what am I? I’m maybe 1 for 4?

310 00:31:18.470 ⇒ 00:31:24.079 Robert Tseng: That’s okay, it’s just because you’ve, you’ve tried… you’ve tried more. I’m not gonna… not everyone’s gonna be a hit.

311 00:31:24.390 ⇒ 00:31:27.270 Uttam Kumaran: Mickey’s here, and we’re gonna try to film some stuff later, so…

312 00:31:27.270 ⇒ 00:31:28.279 Robert Tseng: Oh, cool, nice.

313 00:31:28.280 ⇒ 00:31:29.370 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, yeah.

314 00:31:29.710 ⇒ 00:31:30.480 Uttam Kumaran: So…

315 00:31:31.180 ⇒ 00:31:32.300 Robert Tseng: Okay. Okay.

316 00:31:32.740 ⇒ 00:31:35.699 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, let’s walk through stuff. I,

317 00:31:35.850 ⇒ 00:31:38.259 Uttam Kumaran: I mean, I’m… I have enough… I have time, so…

318 00:31:39.770 ⇒ 00:31:40.470 Robert Tseng: Okay.

319 00:31:40.910 ⇒ 00:31:44.819 Robert Tseng: Let me…

320 00:31:49.140 ⇒ 00:31:55.329 Robert Tseng: Let me just shoot this. I’m, like, Trek Health, I’m trying to get them over the finish line. They might want to do another 15 minutes. 15 minutes.

321 00:31:55.330 ⇒ 00:31:55.790 Uttam Kumaran: Okay, okay.

322 00:31:55.790 ⇒ 00:31:57.400 Robert Tseng: But I think, I think they’re gonna sign.

323 00:31:58.010 ⇒ 00:31:58.650 Uttam Kumaran: Okay.

324 00:31:59.030 ⇒ 00:31:59.650 Robert Tseng: Yeah.

325 00:32:38.320 ⇒ 00:32:46.180 Robert Tseng: Okay, I think she’s trying to bring her lead PM on, I think they might have some… I wonder what objection… whatever. I’m sure I can handle it. I don’t need to…

326 00:32:46.570 ⇒ 00:32:47.909 Robert Tseng: I don’t need to prep for that.

327 00:32:48.240 ⇒ 00:32:57.649 Robert Tseng: Okay, cool. Let’s, let’s, we got a lot of ground cover, I’m not gonna spend too much time, you can mull on. The goal is just to really…

328 00:32:57.830 ⇒ 00:33:01.939 Robert Tseng: Put it in front of you, and then you can kind of spend some time mowing on it.

329 00:33:02.920 ⇒ 00:33:04.650 Robert Tseng: Let’s see…

330 00:33:09.720 ⇒ 00:33:11.650 Robert Tseng: Okay, so…

331 00:33:12.220 ⇒ 00:33:16.939 Robert Tseng: Yes, there’s a lot of stuff going on here, but I’m just gonna go through the run here.

332 00:33:17.460 ⇒ 00:33:31.900 Robert Tseng: Yeah, I guess, like, so things that I’ve already kind of, like, patched up, or, like, kind of… with Joe, kind of, you know, I think as we’re trying to involve more people and go to markets, there’s actually a really good podcast, I may have sent it to you, but,

333 00:33:31.900 ⇒ 00:33:45.859 Robert Tseng: Anyway, that… maybe Vixel says something similar, how, you know, up to… up to the point that we’ve gotten to, it’s… it’s founder… founder-led sales. Now we, you know, around where we should… we’re starting to involve people more in… in… on the go-to-market side.

334 00:33:46.220 ⇒ 00:33:58.610 Robert Tseng: But, you know, they… they’re just not going to be able to have the flexibility to make… make pitches or, like, know how to, like, work the room like we do, and so that’s kind of why we need to really focus on

335 00:33:58.680 ⇒ 00:34:09.130 Robert Tseng: these offers. Kind of the way that I’ve kind of built this out a bit more, I consolidated some of the offers, but I also broke them up into different offer types, so…

336 00:34:09.400 ⇒ 00:34:12.409 Robert Tseng: Discoveries are just kind of what they sound like.

337 00:34:12.540 ⇒ 00:34:21.410 Robert Tseng: You know, I… I don’t… I just kind of am thinking through different types of offers, each one progressively getting bigger.

338 00:34:21.530 ⇒ 00:34:34.109 Robert Tseng: So, I mean, no hard definitions on this, but, like, discovery is obviously just, like, let us come in and figure it out. Validation is, like, okay, maybe there’s, like, a demo that we need to do. If it’s more on the AI side, I was thinking.

339 00:34:34.110 ⇒ 00:34:42.350 Robert Tseng: So some sort of pilot that needs to happen to prove that the capability is there, and then we can go full steam ahead.

340 00:34:42.440 ⇒ 00:34:52.580 Robert Tseng: Enablement is more like, we’re building up this tool so that it can unlock… we’re helping you unlock more value out of this tool to enable a particular workflow.

341 00:34:52.690 ⇒ 00:34:56.890 Robert Tseng: The outcome is kind of the outcome-driven pricing that we’re kind of thinking about.

342 00:34:58.390 ⇒ 00:35:13.619 Robert Tseng: So yeah, I think those are kind of how I’m… how I think about the different offers. The namings are kind of all, like, you know, I’m trying to make them sound like nicer packages that we can kind of offer, but for now, this is what it is. I try to focus on one primary outcome.

343 00:35:13.670 ⇒ 00:35:20.760 Robert Tseng: And then just kind of lightly just wrote down, like, price ranges and how long it takes for us to serve them.

344 00:35:22.490 ⇒ 00:35:36.090 Robert Tseng: Yeah, other than that, it should be pretty straightforward. You know, I think this one was easiest to build out. We’ve done this multiple times, and so I kind of took this as an example, and I’m telling Joe he needs to go in, you know, as he’s learning our business, to be able to go in.

345 00:35:36.250 ⇒ 00:35:54.210 Robert Tseng: I’ve put transcripts here so that, you know, kind of came up with a scorecard to kind of basically fill out for each of these offers on, like, what’s involved here, you know, can we automate it? Like, and, you know, I guess the point is to get to some sort of, like, readiness score and,

346 00:35:54.620 ⇒ 00:35:59.660 Robert Tseng: Yeah, we’ll be able to, you know, if, if it’s, if it’s…

347 00:35:59.920 ⇒ 00:36:08.830 Robert Tseng: if it’s a good score, we should deploy it. I mean, at this point, we’re not experimenting that much with it, so pretty much everything that we’ve put up here, we should try to just…

348 00:36:09.200 ⇒ 00:36:14.140 Robert Tseng: you know, if it’s not ready to go, we should just archive it. Otherwise, like, you know, these are the things that

349 00:36:14.440 ⇒ 00:36:22.379 Robert Tseng: you know, you and I should just be, you know, all of our pitches kind of roll up into one of these things. That’s kind of the point of this exercise. So…

350 00:36:22.380 ⇒ 00:36:26.449 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, that was also my point, is that, like, we should look back at all of our past times.

351 00:36:26.910 ⇒ 00:36:29.310 Uttam Kumaran: And for the ones where we’re like, okay.

352 00:36:30.650 ⇒ 00:36:38.809 Uttam Kumaran: We should… ideally, we should see that most of them, we could have paired them to one of these offers, minus the ones that were maybe just, like, left field.

353 00:36:39.020 ⇒ 00:36:39.650 Robert Tseng: Yeah.

354 00:36:40.270 ⇒ 00:36:45.339 Uttam Kumaran: And then similarly, for all the deals coming up, Yeah, I mean…

355 00:36:45.730 ⇒ 00:36:47.389 Uttam Kumaran: At this point, it’s sort of like.

356 00:36:48.870 ⇒ 00:36:53.240 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, it’s kind of like gravy, so for us, I think we should test some of these.

357 00:36:54.100 ⇒ 00:36:59.640 Robert Tseng: Yeah, I mean, we… and we already do. These are kind of, like, looking back at what we’ve already done, and try to… try to kind of

358 00:36:59.680 ⇒ 00:37:01.339 Robert Tseng: Pull these out.

359 00:37:01.370 ⇒ 00:37:07.289 Robert Tseng: Maybe some of these we haven’t actively pitched, but what I will say is, like, so the discovery, like.

360 00:37:07.290 ⇒ 00:37:23.000 Robert Tseng: it’s kind of like, it’s pretty fixed. We pitch it, you know, this is what I’m doing with Trek Health right now. They reached out to me via Mixpanel’s partner directory. I put this package in front of them. They might, like, redline one or two things, and that’s it. Like, it’s a very light, light touch, just, like, one or two calls, and we close.

361 00:37:23.000 ⇒ 00:37:32.929 Robert Tseng: Right. For the enablement piece, you know, this is, like, the stuff that’s, like, even, like, the Honey Stinger, or, like, whatever, Klaviyo segment, kind of CDP, like, kind of work.

362 00:37:33.000 ⇒ 00:37:47.469 Robert Tseng: You know, this is more of, like, what Dan McGaw’s kind of, like, crew has been… has been doing. But, you know, it’s kind of… yeah, it’s… it’s like, we go in there, we do some sort of light setup. I did pitch this to Mirai Clinical already, we’ll see if they bite.

363 00:37:47.470 ⇒ 00:37:47.970 Uttam Kumaran: Okay.

364 00:37:47.970 ⇒ 00:38:07.000 Robert Tseng: I think we’re kind of going back and forth on rates. They’re kind of annoying that they want to… they want to use Upwork’s timer, like, they want to stay on Upwork, which is annoying, because, like, Upwork requires that, like, I basically use their time tracker, and they do screen recordings, which makes it hard, because, like, I have… I’d be locked into doing the work, and so…

365 00:38:07.000 ⇒ 00:38:12.360 Uttam Kumaran: Why don’t you offer them a… what do they… what do they want? Like, they just want a lower price? Like, why can’t you offer them a discount?

366 00:38:14.040 ⇒ 00:38:17.640 Robert Tseng: Oh, I’m… I… could.

367 00:38:18.180 ⇒ 00:38:22.390 Robert Tseng: I guess… Well, I was like, here’s 10K worth of scope.

368 00:38:22.590 ⇒ 00:38:28.420 Robert Tseng: And then they’re like, I only want to do one out of the three things that you said, and I want to do it at $200 an hour.

369 00:38:28.590 ⇒ 00:38:43.840 Robert Tseng: And you have to record yourself doing it, or basically, like, you have to go through the Upwork timer, and I was like, no, 200 will… you can use, like, my team for $200, but if you want me to work on this, it’s gotta be 250. So, I mean, maybe you think that’s foolish, and I should just accept it.

370 00:38:43.840 ⇒ 00:38:47.740 Uttam Kumaran: No, no, no, no, I mean, I’m not saying foolish or anything, I’m just talking through it, yeah, okay.

371 00:38:47.740 ⇒ 00:38:50.629 Robert Tseng: Yeah, I mean, I was just kind of like, well, I don’t…

372 00:38:51.070 ⇒ 00:38:58.139 Robert Tseng: I haven’t… I haven’t… I don’t really want to… because, yeah, it’ll force me to clock in and out on Upwork, and I’m just gonna be clicking through it myself.

373 00:38:58.140 ⇒ 00:39:01.319 Uttam Kumaran: So, like, I guess, is that a client where you would, you would just say.

374 00:39:02.690 ⇒ 00:39:08.529 Uttam Kumaran: Well, actually, but on, Upwork, can we just have other people log in? Like, other people from our…

375 00:39:09.500 ⇒ 00:39:15.620 Uttam Kumaran: No, no, not logging into your account, but it’s like, isn’t it billed under, like, an agency?

376 00:39:15.870 ⇒ 00:39:20.489 Robert Tseng: Yeah, but, like, not everyone’s attached to our agency, so it would either be your account or mine, so…

377 00:39:21.610 ⇒ 00:39:32.749 Robert Tseng: Which is fine, I guess if they just log in as me and while they’re working, that’s fine. It’s just, like, an extra kind of, like, annoyance. But if you want to do that and just bill that at $200 an hour, that’s fine, we could do that.

378 00:39:36.270 ⇒ 00:39:45.090 Robert Tseng: I don’t know, I guess… But my point is, like, if they’re not willing to commit to 10K worth of scope, and they want to go off hourly, one, it’s like, well, I don’t know, is this gonna be 5 hours, or is this.

379 00:39:45.090 ⇒ 00:39:51.720 Uttam Kumaran: Well, that’s exactly what I would say, is almost you should now basically say… No.

380 00:39:52.670 ⇒ 00:39:53.290 Robert Tseng: Yeah.

381 00:39:53.930 ⇒ 00:39:57.950 Uttam Kumaran: like, I think what we prob… one thing that I would like us to…

382 00:39:58.050 ⇒ 00:40:05.079 Uttam Kumaran: And I’ll send you… yeah, I would love… yeah, whatever you’ve been reading, I also listened to this great podcast with this woman I follow on Twitter.

383 00:40:05.340 ⇒ 00:40:06.310 Uttam Kumaran: about…

384 00:40:06.580 ⇒ 00:40:13.540 Uttam Kumaran: sort of, like, scaling… I think she’s more talking about SaaS, but just scaling sales from, like, 1 to 10 million, and…

385 00:40:13.950 ⇒ 00:40:15.669 Robert Tseng: They really listen to the same thing.

386 00:40:15.670 ⇒ 00:40:17.239 Uttam Kumaran: Do you listen to Jen Abel podcasts?

387 00:40:17.240 ⇒ 00:40:18.230 Robert Tseng: Yeah!

388 00:40:18.230 ⇒ 00:40:22.140 Uttam Kumaran: Dude, I fucking love her. Oh my god, I follow her on Twitter.

389 00:40:22.550 ⇒ 00:40:29.700 Uttam Kumaran: She’s, like, her account is so low-key, and every… and I’ve been following her for, like, almost a year, and then…

390 00:40:29.870 ⇒ 00:40:34.060 Uttam Kumaran: I listened to that yesterday, I was like, fuck yeah, I gotta listen to it again, but…

391 00:40:34.060 ⇒ 00:40:34.500 Robert Tseng: Yeah.

392 00:40:34.500 ⇒ 00:40:43.460 Uttam Kumaran: Fuck, fuck those guys, like… We gotta… she basically… what she said early in that conversation was, Bryce, like…

393 00:40:44.030 ⇒ 00:40:49.689 Uttam Kumaran: go after the enterprise, and she said, price at that level. So, I think at this point, we…

394 00:40:51.770 ⇒ 00:41:04.630 Uttam Kumaran: I think we should take swings towards the big ones, and we should just… we have to raise, like, kind of, like, raise our minimums. It’s, like, also, like, what Otter said during Vixel, which is, like, if you’re at a point where your demand is very high.

395 00:41:04.790 ⇒ 00:41:06.359 Uttam Kumaran: You raise your prices.

396 00:41:06.790 ⇒ 00:41:13.369 Uttam Kumaran: Like, and I guess that’s sort of one thing maybe I would suggest here is, like, we don’t take that business. If there’s… especially.

397 00:41:13.370 ⇒ 00:41:13.850 Robert Tseng: Yeah.

398 00:41:13.850 ⇒ 00:41:15.399 Uttam Kumaran: Gonna put constraints on.

399 00:41:15.940 ⇒ 00:41:22.010 Uttam Kumaran: On delivery, but also, like, I don’t know, I feel like we’re now getting…

400 00:41:22.470 ⇒ 00:41:30.100 Uttam Kumaran: these fairly large businesses that are open to doing 15, 20K a month, like…

401 00:41:30.490 ⇒ 00:41:32.890 Uttam Kumaran: On a… on a commitment, you know?

402 00:41:33.570 ⇒ 00:41:34.590 Uttam Kumaran: Which is great.

403 00:41:35.760 ⇒ 00:41:49.559 Robert Tseng: Yeah. Well, I mean, so I guess you’re… yeah, that’s one takeaway from Jen’s podcast, but I think to me, she’s like, okay, you can either sell to SMBs, or you can sell to enterprises when you’re starting out. It’s hard to sell to this mid-market growth.

404 00:41:49.560 ⇒ 00:41:51.270 Uttam Kumaran: Yes, yes, yes.

405 00:41:51.270 ⇒ 00:41:54.220 Robert Tseng: It’s like, yeah, and so… I mean…

406 00:41:54.220 ⇒ 00:41:59.099 Uttam Kumaran: What’d you think… what’d you think about that? Because, yeah, and I guess… but it is just naming convention, right? Sort of like…

407 00:41:59.100 ⇒ 00:42:06.800 Robert Tseng: Well, I kind of understand her point. It’s like, well, so the SMBs, or at least kind of… I’m, like, trying to put… kind of contextualize it in our business, like.

408 00:42:07.090 ⇒ 00:42:11.209 Robert Tseng: Yeah, for, for SMBs, you’re…

409 00:42:11.580 ⇒ 00:42:30.729 Robert Tseng: Like, you have to… you have to have the fixed packages, because you need to set the guardrails. Like, you have to… they’re not willing to commit to scope, they’re not going to give you scope, like, you have to set those things, and, you know, it’s like, here’s the… here’s the sticker price, if you’re gonna pay for it or not. And we can rip these, like, discovery-level stuff with SMBs, right?

410 00:42:30.940 ⇒ 00:42:38.199 Robert Tseng: And then for the enter… when we’re pricing enterprise, which I would say is, like, truly outcome-based pricing, like, you know.

411 00:42:38.230 ⇒ 00:42:53.340 Robert Tseng: Yeah, I think, like, this… this is, like, kind of the stuff that we need to be going after, like, 100K plus contracts on the enterprise side. But yeah, we don’t really have an enterprise sales motion right now. So we still kind of have, like, this market that we serve, like, if you look at our business, like.

412 00:42:53.340 ⇒ 00:43:13.150 Robert Tseng: no one’s really enterprise. Like, enterprise is, like, a thousand plus people. Like, I don’t really think any of our clients are there. So, like, yeah, I think there… there is still kind of, like, some triangulation here to, like, see how she maps it out, but I do hear her point that, like, sell to SMB or sell to enterprise, like, there’s not really a mid-market motion, and so…

413 00:43:13.410 ⇒ 00:43:14.060 Robert Tseng: Okay.

414 00:43:14.060 ⇒ 00:43:14.670 Uttam Kumaran: Okay.

415 00:43:14.670 ⇒ 00:43:18.449 Robert Tseng: Yeah, like, I think I understand… I understand where she’s coming from there.

416 00:43:18.450 ⇒ 00:43:23.420 Uttam Kumaran: But then, okay, so then what does that mean? She also said a point with… what she said, she said, like.

417 00:43:23.690 ⇒ 00:43:31.109 Uttam Kumaran: these are people that should be enterprise, or what was her point, also? She said, like, the people that are in mid-market, like, should end up… yeah, for…

418 00:43:31.110 ⇒ 00:43:38.909 Robert Tseng: Yeah, yeah, so it’s like, yeah, you… you… I mean, you should basically treat the mid-market people like… like enterprise, but there’s, like, less red tape involved. But, like.

419 00:43:38.910 ⇒ 00:43:54.459 Robert Tseng: But in a true enterprise sale, like, there’s an RFP process, the procurement is… the buyer is not the same as the person who’s signing off on your contract. You actually need two signatures, you need the procurement team to sign off on it, and you need your champion to sign off on it.

420 00:43:54.540 ⇒ 00:43:57.960 Robert Tseng: And she’s like, the average sales cycle is 2 quarters.

421 00:43:58.000 ⇒ 00:44:17.220 Robert Tseng: You know? So, like, you know, we have not been engaged in any sales cycle that’s been that long. Maybe the closest thing that we’re knocking on is with the RFP, with OneSource, which is good exposure for us, but yeah, I mean, as a bootstrapped business doing enterprise, because she’s talking about SaaS businesses, right? But, like, we cannot build an enterprise motion as a.

422 00:44:17.220 ⇒ 00:44:17.980 Uttam Kumaran: That’s a straight mark.

423 00:44:17.980 ⇒ 00:44:21.200 Robert Tseng: Promotion, because we will, we will die before the deal closes.

424 00:44:21.200 ⇒ 00:44:45.430 Robert Tseng: So, like, I do, you know, I… I do think that we still need to feed the SMB pipeline, which is kind of why we have a couple core offerings. This one, the product analytics is just, like, you know, is an SMB kind of offer. But I think, like, as we are able to qualify our leads better, yeah, we should maybe push some… we should try to push some of these, like, enablement or outcome-based things more.

425 00:44:45.470 ⇒ 00:44:53.380 Robert Tseng: Which we are already. So, I’m just trying to, like, frame a lot of our offers into kind of the way that she was kind of trying to talk about it.

426 00:44:53.960 ⇒ 00:45:01.180 Uttam Kumaran: So, a couple other offers that I would like to propose based on my conversation with Omni is migration.

427 00:45:01.960 ⇒ 00:45:08.129 Uttam Kumaran: So, this is where… are you moving from Looker to Modern BI? So, I think there are…

428 00:45:08.310 ⇒ 00:45:11.190 Uttam Kumaran: Migration-related things that we can…

429 00:45:11.590 ⇒ 00:45:21.690 Uttam Kumaran: basically… basically, what Omni was like, we’d love for you guys to develop accelerators. Looker to Omni, accelerator, blah blah blah to whatever accelerator. So…

430 00:45:22.660 ⇒ 00:45:27.980 Uttam Kumaran: like, whether that is segment to amplitude, or something to Omni.

431 00:45:27.980 ⇒ 00:45:28.610 Robert Tseng: Yeah.

432 00:45:28.850 ⇒ 00:45:37.310 Uttam Kumaran: I think there’s opportunity there. There’s not really one in dbt. There’s certainly one for Data Warehouse, though. So if we want to do a redshift to…

433 00:45:37.530 ⇒ 00:45:42.740 Uttam Kumaran: yeah, if we want to do Redshift to Snowflake.

434 00:45:43.080 ⇒ 00:45:48.520 Uttam Kumaran: for BI, it would be Looker, Tableau, Power BI to Omni, And…

435 00:45:49.040 ⇒ 00:45:50.080 Robert Tseng: Yeah. Yeah.

436 00:45:50.490 ⇒ 00:46:01.819 Uttam Kumaran: And the reason why, one is, like, the scope is really fixed. Second, we have a great partner support there. And also, they would… they would sell this for us, squarely.

437 00:46:01.820 ⇒ 00:46:02.350 Robert Tseng: Yeah.

438 00:46:02.570 ⇒ 00:46:02.920 Uttam Kumaran: You know?

439 00:46:02.920 ⇒ 00:46:03.340 Robert Tseng: Yeah.

440 00:46:03.340 ⇒ 00:46:12.140 Uttam Kumaran: And, like, the… and I think Holly will mention this, too, if we show this, but basically, if we want to go after the hyperscaler, like, we want to go after…

441 00:46:12.300 ⇒ 00:46:19.159 Uttam Kumaran: Snowflake, or some of these big vendors, we have to have these, like, accelerator-related things.

442 00:46:21.110 ⇒ 00:46:28.369 Uttam Kumaran: we have to have, like, a concise offering there, so I think this is good. I almost would push to say, like, what is our partnership

443 00:46:28.870 ⇒ 00:46:32.389 Uttam Kumaran: Strategy, like, how do we sell any of these offers with any partner?

444 00:46:32.390 ⇒ 00:46:33.220 Robert Tseng: Yeah.

445 00:46:33.220 ⇒ 00:46:33.640 Uttam Kumaran: Right.

446 00:46:33.640 ⇒ 00:46:42.530 Robert Tseng: Yeah, yeah, I think that’s what I’m thinking. Like, these are, like, things that we can’t sell on our own, really. Like, we’re not gonna find the right timing.

447 00:46:42.820 ⇒ 00:46:43.210 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.

448 00:46:43.210 ⇒ 00:46:55.620 Robert Tseng: are buying these things, they’re going to be the ones talking to these vendors, like, already, or, like, they’re gonna be targeted by the vendors. The vendors are throwing their sales force, trying to find the right people who are looking for these migrations already. We don’t need to go and continue to get that.

449 00:46:55.620 ⇒ 00:46:55.939 Uttam Kumaran: You’re right.

450 00:46:55.940 ⇒ 00:47:04.210 Robert Tseng: But we can put together the offers, and these are good partner offers. But yeah, I should add another dimension here that’s, like, what’s partner versus our direct… direct sales. So that’s… that’s a good thing.

451 00:47:04.210 ⇒ 00:47:11.240 Uttam Kumaran: the Mixpanel guy, that’s what he told me, too. He’s like, if you guys put a, like, a product analytics modernization, or whatever.

452 00:47:11.240 ⇒ 00:47:11.750 Robert Tseng: Yeah.

453 00:47:11.750 ⇒ 00:47:13.520 Uttam Kumaran: So, okay, okay.

454 00:47:14.270 ⇒ 00:47:21.120 Robert Tseng: Okay, so, yeah, anyway, so that’s kind of offer stuff. Okay, but I think I, you know, I don’t want to spend too much time on GT.

455 00:47:21.120 ⇒ 00:47:21.540 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, yeah.

456 00:47:21.540 ⇒ 00:47:32.109 Robert Tseng: This is just kind of what I wanted to say. So, yeah, let me just talk about this delivery ops thing. So I did kind of, like, take this, and I did map it to the…

457 00:47:37.980 ⇒ 00:47:51.299 Robert Tseng: I just kind of duplicated this, and I think it’s still a little bit unclear, but, you know, I basically went here, I kind of went through all of our… all the AORs, I kind of deleted a bit, but sure, I mean.

458 00:47:51.430 ⇒ 00:48:00.810 Robert Tseng: I’m not gonna talk about the ones that we occupy, but yeah, I guess, to me, it’s like, kind of going back to this, like, founding ops team, kind of like,

459 00:48:01.700 ⇒ 00:48:20.999 Robert Tseng: Yeah, I mean, I would recommend just, like, looking through the stock, just kind of, like, see if you resonate with this. Yeah, but I mean, really, the archetypes that I kind of have, like, teed up here for, like, our core folks, there’s, like, someone on delivery, someone, like, delivery ops, go-to-market ops, biz ops, product ops, and then, like, obviously our technical architects.

460 00:48:21.110 ⇒ 00:48:35.890 Robert Tseng: Like, I mean, I just threw people’s names on the board here, but I tried to map them to DRIs here. The BizOps part were clear to me. The go-to-market ops, also pretty clear to me.

461 00:48:36.380 ⇒ 00:48:46.950 Robert Tseng: Product Ops, I think, is… has, like, some space here, I think, but it’d really just be on the AI side, and it’s like, you know, whether or not… yeah, so that’s that, and then…

462 00:48:46.950 ⇒ 00:48:58.199 Robert Tseng: And then the, go to… and then the, delivery ops, I think, still needs some… some work… rework, because I feel like we’ve… we’ve changed some of this stuff now that we abandoned the traditional PMO.

463 00:48:59.670 ⇒ 00:49:04.690 Robert Tseng: Yeah, so I think I might need, like, the end of the week to kind of think through… think through.

464 00:49:04.690 ⇒ 00:49:05.879 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I would say a product.

465 00:49:05.880 ⇒ 00:49:06.590 Robert Tseng: PR?

466 00:49:07.120 ⇒ 00:49:10.920 Uttam Kumaran: product ops, I almost want to change it to, like, platform.

467 00:49:11.110 ⇒ 00:49:13.590 Uttam Kumaran: Sure. Because I don’t,

468 00:49:16.930 ⇒ 00:49:29.770 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I sort of don’t care the level of fidelity, like, that… like, for example, the case study assistant is, like, almost we’re building software. There’s also things that live in N8N or Clay that’s more of just, like.

469 00:49:30.170 ⇒ 00:49:36.919 Uttam Kumaran: Also, this could be just about, like, whenever we do any activity at Brainforge, there should be some acceleration to it.

470 00:49:37.160 ⇒ 00:49:42.679 Uttam Kumaran: Because of our unique platform and the way we execute. So, also thinking of that, and then the delivery side.

471 00:49:42.860 ⇒ 00:49:48.360 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, this is a little bit tough. I don’t know yet, like…

472 00:49:50.070 ⇒ 00:50:00.160 Uttam Kumaran: I’ve been thinking about, like, yeah, I don’t know, it’s just… it’s… it’s hard, because I think there is, like, a data… there’s, like, a… someone to look at all the numbers and, like, optimize stuff.

473 00:50:00.780 ⇒ 00:50:08.260 Uttam Kumaran: There’s also, like, the core, like, delivery stuff that I’m doing,

474 00:50:08.990 ⇒ 00:50:15.349 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I don’t know, I just, like, it’s… I don’t know. It’s hard to find, like, hard to think about, like, who could fit in.

475 00:50:15.730 ⇒ 00:50:16.690 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.

476 00:50:17.030 ⇒ 00:50:24.180 Robert Tseng: I think less trying to do this mapping exercise now, like, let me just, like, kind of talk through, like, how these people work together. So…

477 00:50:24.500 ⇒ 00:50:32.040 Robert Tseng: It’s like… Yeah, day… on their… on the… in their day-to-day, like, yes, you know.

478 00:50:33.030 ⇒ 00:50:44.180 Robert Tseng: this person would still be, you know, 60% billable, right? At least. And then, but, like, in this role, they have… they are… they have to own, like.

479 00:50:44.250 ⇒ 00:50:59.200 Robert Tseng: The benchmarks for speed and consistency across… and delivery across all of our clients, knowing the nuances of, like, client… different client… different stages of client maturity, and .

480 00:50:59.200 ⇒ 00:50:59.790 Uttam Kumaran: Okay.

481 00:50:59.990 ⇒ 00:51:06.530 Robert Tseng: Yeah, like, you know, this is really, like, a head of client services kind of role, but, like, and…

482 00:51:07.210 ⇒ 00:51:14.139 Robert Tseng: Yeah, and I guess, like, if they need anything, and it’s, it’s like, okay, hey, we actually,

483 00:51:14.140 ⇒ 00:51:34.460 Robert Tseng: our team spends… the delivery team spends too much time in meetings, then they need to go back to the platform team, who’s… their liaison is going to be this person, and work with them to build, like, the platform product to the point that… that they would be able to reduce time spent in meetings, or whatever. Like, and so, I kind of see it as, like, they’re…

484 00:51:34.460 ⇒ 00:51:42.210 Robert Tseng: These people are the ones that are going… are committed to learning across all things in the business, and they will be, like, kind of like that core… the core group.

485 00:51:42.250 ⇒ 00:51:43.810 Robert Tseng: But then…

486 00:51:43.880 ⇒ 00:51:55.419 Robert Tseng: Like, if they need to, like, drive any changes to optimize their own business units, like, they need to work with each other to do that, without us kind of necessarily having to be in the loop there.

487 00:51:55.420 ⇒ 00:52:08.480 Robert Tseng: So, that’s, like, one, like, anecdote that I shared there. Maybe on the… maybe on the go-to-market side, it’s like, hey, we’re, like, creating new offers, like, there’s a bit of a disconnect with, like, where the, like, what we actually.

488 00:52:08.480 ⇒ 00:52:09.200 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.

489 00:52:09.200 ⇒ 00:52:21.000 Robert Tseng: time, time to serve, and whatnot. Then they need to get together with the delivery team, and they need to basically kind of connect delivery insights, get the wins from the delivery team, and push it… put it into the offers themselves.

490 00:52:21.400 ⇒ 00:52:35.099 Robert Tseng: Right? And then, like, yeah, so I kind of feel like you need to just have, like, one… you know, I kind of feel like there’s one… one… one throat to choke, I guess, for each one of these, like, functions, that’s, like, not U and D.

491 00:52:35.100 ⇒ 00:52:53.219 Robert Tseng: I think we’re… we might be, like, coddling the team too much by, like, assuming that we are the ones that are doing all of it, and then we get frustrated when nobody else, like, really understands it. So, we kind of just have to push people into these roles functionally, and, like, give them these titles or whatever, but, like, sure, their day-to-day may not change, but…

492 00:52:53.220 ⇒ 00:52:57.990 Robert Tseng: to my point on Slack, it’s just to reframe it so that it’s not, like.

493 00:52:58.020 ⇒ 00:53:06.679 Robert Tseng: okay, Awashia’s, like, tech lead, but we’re asking him to do some case studies here and there. Like, it’s… it’s like, no, you’re actually, you know, whatever role.

494 00:53:06.680 ⇒ 00:53:07.700 Uttam Kumaran: Absolutely your job, yeah.

495 00:53:07.700 ⇒ 00:53:20.150 Robert Tseng: yeah, this is… this is your job. And it’s like, your… the billable stuff that you do has to fall under it, but, like, you own the outcomes on, like, continuing to make this… to… to grow… to grow this function.

496 00:53:20.150 ⇒ 00:53:20.940 Robert Tseng: Right.

497 00:53:20.940 ⇒ 00:53:43.189 Robert Tseng: And that way, when we meet with each of these different, like, leads, like, we can really go and just feed them the vision for, like, what we want to see in each of these functions. And we can go in and step in and basically run any of these teams, but we’re basically… but we’re having a GM kind of style person who’s kind of going in and running and actually, like, kind of running these day-to-day.

498 00:53:43.250 ⇒ 00:53:49.199 Robert Tseng: So, yeah, I mean, what… eventually, we’ll get to, like, a mapping, like, across to the…

499 00:53:49.200 ⇒ 00:53:55.920 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, so on the AORs, Lauren… I’ve tasked Lauren to finalize, basically, like, a version of this.

500 00:53:56.270 ⇒ 00:54:03.289 Uttam Kumaran: I said, like, I gave you most of it, I said, use AI, get every… AOR that’s possible.

501 00:54:03.490 ⇒ 00:54:12.060 Uttam Kumaran: And, like, in a business like ours, and then we’ll… so we should have a pretty good view across the business of all the AORs, like, by the end of the week.

502 00:54:12.370 ⇒ 00:54:13.269 Uttam Kumaran: And then…

503 00:54:13.270 ⇒ 00:54:14.399 Robert Tseng: That’s not this.

504 00:54:14.870 ⇒ 00:54:21.200 Uttam Kumaran: She may have already started, or she’s adding more, I don’t know. Or…

505 00:54:22.230 ⇒ 00:54:26.109 Uttam Kumaran: Okay. I don’t know, I think… I think Q4, she may actually start, she may have started.

506 00:54:26.110 ⇒ 00:54:27.160 Robert Tseng: I started this.

507 00:54:27.160 ⇒ 00:54:29.139 Uttam Kumaran: Oh, okay, so I told her, I said, like.

508 00:54:29.970 ⇒ 00:54:34.909 Uttam Kumaran: I said, basically, like, I want to wrap this into some bow where we can say, like, these are all the…

509 00:54:35.010 ⇒ 00:54:36.960 Uttam Kumaran: the AORs, so…

510 00:54:36.960 ⇒ 00:54:38.779 Robert Tseng: I went through all of them, and I kind of.

511 00:54:38.780 ⇒ 00:54:39.450 Uttam Kumaran: Okay, okay, okay.

512 00:54:39.450 ⇒ 00:54:41.120 Robert Tseng: My own update on all of them.

513 00:54:41.120 ⇒ 00:54:42.089 Uttam Kumaran: Okay, okay, then…

514 00:54:42.090 ⇒ 00:54:42.450 Robert Tseng: Yeah.

515 00:54:42.450 ⇒ 00:54:43.060 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.

516 00:54:43.360 ⇒ 00:54:47.399 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I feel…

517 00:54:49.470 ⇒ 00:54:51.970 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I feel good about it. I think, like.

518 00:54:54.370 ⇒ 00:55:11.129 Robert Tseng: So, structure-wise, it’s like, these people need to be full-time, and then everyone else is not full-time. Everyone else is just, like, an hourly contractor. Like, I think one of the problem that we have right now is that we are over-committed on, like, full-time… I mean, we don’t have that many full-time people, but, like, there are certain…

519 00:55:11.260 ⇒ 00:55:18.280 Robert Tseng: like, I think the engineering talent, like, that has to stay in contract. Like, unless they’re truly contributing to, like, the rest of the business.

520 00:55:18.280 ⇒ 00:55:22.440 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, we’ve under-allocated on, like, yeah, our internal ops, 100%, yeah.

521 00:55:22.440 ⇒ 00:55:24.100 Robert Tseng: Yeah. Yeah.

522 00:55:24.100 ⇒ 00:55:26.000 Uttam Kumaran: And we’re splitting, we’re having people split.

523 00:55:26.420 ⇒ 00:55:32.380 Robert Tseng: Dave Milati should not be a full-timer. I mean, like, he should… he could be… he could be building enough hours to be a full-timer.

524 00:55:32.380 ⇒ 00:55:32.790 Uttam Kumaran: Yes.

525 00:55:32.790 ⇒ 00:55:34.690 Robert Tseng: be, by default, a full-timer.

526 00:55:34.690 ⇒ 00:55:35.660 Uttam Kumaran: Okay. Yeah.

527 00:55:35.930 ⇒ 00:55:45.360 Robert Tseng: Yeah, and then, like, yes, like, you know, Amber is full-time, but then, you know, I don’t think she’s a lead in any of these roles, either.

528 00:55:45.360 ⇒ 00:55:46.030 Uttam Kumaran: I agree.

529 00:55:46.030 ⇒ 00:56:00.280 Robert Tseng: you know, if we were to go out and raise money, and we were to say, like, we needed to get 6 months of runway, 500… raise 500 grand so that we could build and run this team, like, I mean, these may not be the people, I’ve just, like, kind of threw prototype, like, archetypes up there.

530 00:56:00.280 ⇒ 00:56:10.809 Robert Tseng: Like, I… I think, like, that’s… that’s what I would, you know, I think that’s where this will help us to kind of articulate, like, where… where we will… where we would put the money in, you know.

531 00:56:12.870 ⇒ 00:56:19.800 Robert Tseng: So yeah, I mean, we can… I don’t want to… we can have a conversation about who these people are, like, at a different point. I think I just wanted you to spend some time.

532 00:56:19.800 ⇒ 00:56:26.040 Uttam Kumaran: No, I’m honestly less about the people, I want to define the roles and success.

533 00:56:26.380 ⇒ 00:56:31.539 Uttam Kumaran: And then, if people are internally want the chance, They can do it.

534 00:56:31.660 ⇒ 00:56:42.280 Uttam Kumaran: Like, they can… they can try. But, like, also, I don’t want to be beholden by who we have. Like, I think you’re right in whatever you wrote, which is, like…

535 00:56:42.550 ⇒ 00:56:48.110 Uttam Kumaran: try to… I want to establish the bar, and then after establishing, we can see, does anyone

536 00:56:48.500 ⇒ 00:56:52.410 Uttam Kumaran: Is anyone truly matching these? If not, then it’s fine, you know?

537 00:56:52.410 ⇒ 00:56:52.900 Robert Tseng: Yeah.

538 00:56:56.400 ⇒ 00:56:59.490 Uttam Kumaran: I also would like… I also like to think of, like, priority.

539 00:57:01.130 ⇒ 00:57:02.580 Robert Tseng: Of, like, of these?

540 00:57:03.240 ⇒ 00:57:04.020 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.

541 00:57:04.230 ⇒ 00:57:04.890 Robert Tseng: Yeah.

542 00:57:06.010 ⇒ 00:57:09.290 Uttam Kumaran: Either, either, either… I mean, a priority can be…

543 00:57:09.580 ⇒ 00:57:14.650 Uttam Kumaran: in multiple different ways. It could be, like, Yeah, it’s like…

544 00:57:14.870 ⇒ 00:57:18.960 Uttam Kumaran: if we could only go with one, who would we get? It could be, like.

545 00:57:19.110 ⇒ 00:57:23.180 Uttam Kumaran: the odds of getting the right one, but, like, in some way, I just want to think through

546 00:57:23.780 ⇒ 00:57:36.380 Uttam Kumaran: Which is important. I also… Yeah, the delivery stuff is, like… It’s so hard, like… Yeah, it’s hard.

547 00:57:43.550 ⇒ 00:57:52.430 Robert Tseng: I mean, by default, all of this falls on us right now, and so this is really just, like, bringing… bringing one person… I mean, bringing people in to kind of.

548 00:57:52.790 ⇒ 00:57:56.499 Uttam Kumaran: So you’re gonna move… are you… so you said… if you’re talking about the splits between…

549 00:57:56.810 ⇒ 00:58:02.860 Uttam Kumaran: billable, non-billable, you’re… you’re saying that they’re gonna be 70%

550 00:58:03.450 ⇒ 00:58:05.329 Uttam Kumaran: Wait, what was, like, what, yeah, what was the…

551 00:58:05.330 ⇒ 00:58:12.710 Robert Tseng: Yeah, I mean, I think it should be, like, you know, at least 60% bill… they still have to be at least 60% billable. So, like, I mean, like, let’s just use.

552 00:58:12.710 ⇒ 00:58:22.229 Uttam Kumaran: And do you see that shifting over time? Like, how do you… if they were to ask you, okay, like, but, like, what is my… what, like, what is… what does it look like in 2 years?

553 00:58:22.610 ⇒ 00:58:30.249 Robert Tseng: Yeah, it’s on them to push their… to push their billable down. If they can actually… let’s say we put Henry in this, he’s at 60% billable.

554 00:58:30.350 ⇒ 00:58:44.330 Robert Tseng: Or whatever. And, yeah, you know, assuming he gets to this point, like, yeah, he, he needs to get, he needs to then get himself out of, out of delivery, right? But then we’re, you know, we would be able to tell him, okay, like.

555 00:58:44.810 ⇒ 00:58:45.770 Robert Tseng: you know.

556 00:58:46.360 ⇒ 00:58:54.790 Robert Tseng: Right now, we… we know that with every additional 3 clients, we need to… or with every additional 5 clients, we need to hire 3 more people.

557 00:58:54.800 ⇒ 00:59:13.039 Robert Tseng: You know, but we’re gonna just push back. You… when we get to that point, you need to push back… you need to be the one to bring up, like, you need resourcing, you need… you need X many… any… you need to have the… have the team, like, they… they become the budget, they kind of… they own the budget at that point, and

558 00:59:13.130 ⇒ 00:59:28.810 Robert Tseng: you know, the problem is that when something breaks, only we feel the pain, because, like, nobody is, like, a truly… like, a budget owner of anything. Right now, they’re… yeah, and so, like, it’s kind of like, oh, something breaks, Utama Robert will, like.

559 00:59:28.810 ⇒ 00:59:34.259 Uttam Kumaran: But I guess that’s what I… that’s also what I’m interested in, is, like, how did… like, what changes are we gonna make to, like.

560 00:59:34.960 ⇒ 00:59:37.939 Uttam Kumaran: The weekly process, or that feeling, like…

561 00:59:42.400 ⇒ 00:59:43.370 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.

562 00:59:45.200 ⇒ 00:59:49.729 Uttam Kumaran: Because everybody’s going to be happy to get these titles or roles. It’s like, I’m trying to think about…

563 00:59:49.870 ⇒ 00:59:52.659 Uttam Kumaran: What process needs to change for us to, like.

564 00:59:54.610 ⇒ 00:59:58.210 Uttam Kumaran: For us to… for us to basically put the pressure on these guys.

565 00:59:58.370 ⇒ 01:00:06.659 Uttam Kumaran: Strategically, like, is it just moving to, like, hey, you’re gonna start reporting on… we just basically create the metrics in a way.

566 01:00:07.870 ⇒ 01:00:11.420 Uttam Kumaran: That forces the… the right behavior, like, and then we.

567 01:00:11.420 ⇒ 01:00:19.609 Robert Tseng: Well, so, I think once they’re full-time, we have more leverage to put pressure on them as well, obviously. I think… I think that’s part of it.

568 01:00:19.740 ⇒ 01:00:24.269 Robert Tseng: So, like, if… if delivery, like, has a… has… has, like, a mess up, and…

569 01:00:24.450 ⇒ 01:00:30.310 Robert Tseng: you know, we tell this person… I mean, yeah, like, it would be… like.

570 01:00:31.950 ⇒ 01:00:50.310 Robert Tseng: that weekend situation, they would have to go and figure… and, like, they would have to… they would have to figure it out. Right. And then, like, on the go-to-market side, like, let’s say, like, pipeline dries up, we don’t hit that $60K, this person is getting all the, like, yeah, we were just, you know, all… everything is gonna come down on this person.

571 01:00:50.310 ⇒ 01:00:56.130 Uttam Kumaran: Okay, so then… so then it is very, like, okay, then they… then basically, I think one thing that we can do here is, like.

572 01:00:56.400 ⇒ 01:00:59.040 Uttam Kumaran: For this quarter and next quarter.

573 01:00:59.430 ⇒ 01:01:13.620 Uttam Kumaran: like, what are the metrics that this person owns? And I would like us to basically consider… for example, I don’t know whether it happened today, well, the Giants just fired their coach, and I think the Mavericks…

574 01:01:13.620 ⇒ 01:01:17.469 Robert Tseng: Mavs fired Nico Harrison. I was… I was looking at that, yeah.

575 01:01:17.470 ⇒ 01:01:23.689 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, right? But, like, I guess my point is, I want to make it really concrete that if you were to miss

576 01:01:24.610 ⇒ 01:01:32.819 Uttam Kumaran: if you’re gonna miss on… like, I kind of basically want to do, like, if you miss on X amount of KPIs for X amount of periods.

577 01:01:33.360 ⇒ 01:01:38.670 Uttam Kumaran: okay, like, we have to… like, I want us to have really clarity into, like, whether these are happening.

578 01:01:38.670 ⇒ 01:01:45.529 Robert Tseng: Well, that’s… that’s on us to figure that out. You know, right now, what we can do to… well, it’s like, look, I think the incentive to them is

579 01:01:45.530 ⇒ 01:01:59.050 Robert Tseng: okay, they’re full-time, you know, whatever it is, and if they do better than, like, what the… then yeah, this ties to their bonuses. Right now, we don’t have something that’s able to penalize them. I don’t really know if we really have the leverage right now to

580 01:01:59.290 ⇒ 01:02:01.120 Robert Tseng: To… to penalize, because…

581 01:02:01.540 ⇒ 01:02:02.480 Uttam Kumaran: No, but see, the R…

582 01:02:02.480 ⇒ 01:02:03.140 Robert Tseng: Fire anybody?

583 01:02:03.510 ⇒ 01:02:04.319 Robert Tseng: Comes back to us.

584 01:02:04.320 ⇒ 01:02:06.040 Uttam Kumaran: Final thing is that we sub in.

585 01:02:06.320 ⇒ 01:02:08.969 Robert Tseng: Yeah, that’s, that’s the, that’s the, that’s the alternative, so…

586 01:02:08.970 ⇒ 01:02:13.639 Uttam Kumaran: So, I don’t mind doing that, and I would base… but I want us to be… this is where, like.

587 01:02:14.050 ⇒ 01:02:22.290 Uttam Kumaran: I almost, with them, want to agree on the contract, which is, like, these are the metrics that you’re gonna be judged by, and here’s, like.

588 01:02:22.450 ⇒ 01:02:23.110 Robert Tseng: Yeah.

589 01:02:23.390 ⇒ 01:02:25.309 Uttam Kumaran: You know,

590 01:02:25.650 ⇒ 01:02:29.920 Uttam Kumaran: And I kind of want to have the conversation like I had with Hannah, which is, like, you either…

591 01:02:30.050 ⇒ 01:02:33.010 Uttam Kumaran: Want to do this, or don’t, but, like, here’s a risk.

592 01:02:33.200 ⇒ 01:02:38.470 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah. And so, yeah, I feel comfortable with that, like… And…

593 01:02:39.000 ⇒ 01:02:55.619 Uttam Kumaran: yeah, I kind of want them to… it’s… it’s… it’s what happens in public companies, like, you show misses and hits, like, on different metrics, and I… as long… and I want to structure the metrics with them, which can be one of the first tasks that we work on with each of these folks, and then we have the… I think we have…

594 01:02:55.680 ⇒ 01:03:02.919 Uttam Kumaran: we have the reporting infrastructure to do all this, and for example, like, if Awash was on the technical side, I would say.

595 01:03:03.250 ⇒ 01:03:11.469 Uttam Kumaran: On several clients, we’re not… like, one of the metrics would be, on several clients, we’re not reporting out on data errors, and on our two primary clients.

596 01:03:11.720 ⇒ 01:03:13.599 Uttam Kumaran: We have almost one error a day.

597 01:03:13.940 ⇒ 01:03:15.930 Uttam Kumaran: So, our KPI is…

598 01:03:16.820 ⇒ 01:03:21.240 Uttam Kumaran: Less than 2 hours a week, or less than 1 hour a week, and we’ll see how often we

599 01:03:21.560 ⇒ 01:03:24.930 Uttam Kumaran: We hit it, and then there has to be a… there has to be an explanation, right?

600 01:03:25.130 ⇒ 01:03:34.239 Uttam Kumaran: And I think, like, that’s… that’s sort of, like, I think what I… what I… what I want to get to. The other thing I want to also map out here is what meetings these people lead.

601 01:03:34.350 ⇒ 01:03:41.260 Uttam Kumaran: Like, I would hand the delivery meeting to whoever is there, right? So, that’s all… that is… goes… that’s actually, like.

602 01:03:41.620 ⇒ 01:03:47.530 Uttam Kumaran: I almost want to be like, here is the scope of the role. It includes running these meetings, it includes reporting on these metrics.

603 01:03:48.470 ⇒ 01:03:50.590 Uttam Kumaran: this is it, right?

604 01:03:51.430 ⇒ 01:03:55.370 Uttam Kumaran: That is a… and this fits squarely a lot with, like.

605 01:03:55.530 ⇒ 01:04:01.040 Uttam Kumaran: I’m having Lauren do, like, a… a role mapping, like, leveling thing, so…

606 01:04:01.310 ⇒ 01:04:04.080 Uttam Kumaran: We can basically add to the org structure

607 01:04:04.310 ⇒ 01:04:07.519 Uttam Kumaran: where these people fit in. I can have her work on the JDs.

608 01:04:08.110 ⇒ 01:04:15.250 Uttam Kumaran: And, like, we basically at least solidify, like, this is, like, what our expectations are. Okay, so I kind of get… I understand, like, where this is.

609 01:04:15.850 ⇒ 01:04:19.770 Robert Tseng: Okay. Yeah, I mean, I think… and then, like, the ask from us is, like.

610 01:04:20.110 ⇒ 01:04:27.569 Robert Tseng: you know, if they fail, it’s on us. I mean, we’re gonna do everything that we can to keep them, to make them not fail. We’re, you know, we’re spending time with them.

611 01:04:27.570 ⇒ 01:04:46.439 Robert Tseng: We’re helping them kind of, like, we’re co-authoring, like, the metrics that they’re responsible for. Like, I think, like, this is, like, when we think about the quarterly… we do off-sites, and we get together in person, like, yeah, we really just, like, we’re really leaning into, we need this core team in order to kind of get to the next… that gets to the next… next stage, right?

612 01:04:46.560 ⇒ 01:04:56.940 Robert Tseng: I… I think that’s… that’s kind of the… that’s… that’s what… that’s what it’ll demand from us. Anyway, so there’s some heuristics and stuff like this, you can kind of look through this in your time.

613 01:04:57.680 ⇒ 01:04:58.140 Uttam Kumaran: Okay.

614 01:04:58.140 ⇒ 01:05:06.220 Robert Tseng: Yeah, timeline-wise, like, I don’t think we have to get this, like, finalized, buttoned up until end of year. Like, I think this is, like, maybe we could hit the ground running in 2026 with this.

615 01:05:06.420 ⇒ 01:05:16.520 Robert Tseng: But yeah, when you’re talking to other people who are coming in, like, we need… we need people to fill these roles, whether internally or externally. And maybe not everything is a priority, obviously, like, we can kind of

616 01:05:16.520 ⇒ 01:05:34.130 Robert Tseng: I think we should figure out, like, in the short term, like, which ones and what priority. Like, I don’t actually necessarily think this will be a full-time role, still. We’re just not that big that it’s that necessary. But yeah, I think, like, you know, there… between you and I, we can kind of figure… figure that out.

617 01:05:34.950 ⇒ 01:05:36.730 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I think priority…

618 01:05:36.970 ⇒ 01:05:43.459 Uttam Kumaran: and, like, budget available, and then totally, like, I think there’s a class of people

619 01:05:43.780 ⇒ 01:05:46.520 Uttam Kumaran: that I would like to start having conversations with.

620 01:05:47.040 ⇒ 01:05:52.070 Uttam Kumaran: on this, That, like, I haven’t been able to before, right? Like…

621 01:05:52.240 ⇒ 01:05:58.110 Robert Tseng: So, I was just kind of, like, let me just tentatively rank it, like, just quickly, like, without overthinking it, like, what feels…

622 01:05:58.110 ⇒ 01:06:01.830 Uttam Kumaran: Well, so this is the thing, because the business ops lead…

623 01:06:05.630 ⇒ 01:06:07.920 Uttam Kumaran: There’s a lot of stuff that’s, like…

624 01:06:08.540 ⇒ 01:06:13.469 Uttam Kumaran: Like, for example, the AORs, leveling guide, everything around recruiting.

625 01:06:14.450 ⇒ 01:06:20.530 Uttam Kumaran: so I would almost say, like, there’s, like, priority and cost. Like, I don’t think Lauren would be, like.

626 01:06:21.070 ⇒ 01:06:28.170 Uttam Kumaran: that expensive to get. So we almost have to map it out to, like, how expensive this person would be.

627 01:06:29.490 ⇒ 01:06:35.010 Uttam Kumaran: And also, like, how important is it for us to have that person there, you know?

628 01:06:35.230 ⇒ 01:06:35.860 Robert Tseng: Okay, sure.

629 01:06:35.860 ⇒ 01:06:39.979 Uttam Kumaran: Also, like, kind of a risk of…

630 01:06:40.580 ⇒ 01:06:43.430 Uttam Kumaran: There is also a risk of us handing some of these off.

631 01:06:44.010 ⇒ 01:06:46.649 Uttam Kumaran: Like, you know, for example.

632 01:06:48.540 ⇒ 01:06:54.350 Uttam Kumaran: BizOps leave, I’ll handle all that shit out, there’s no risk, like, it’s already being done, like, sort of, like.

633 01:06:55.430 ⇒ 01:07:00.460 Uttam Kumaran: Dude, and like, you know, so I think that’s… but… delivery ops…

634 01:07:01.190 ⇒ 01:07:05.990 Uttam Kumaran: It’s tough, because we saw, if we slipped for 2 weeks on delivery, like…

635 01:07:05.990 ⇒ 01:07:15.599 Robert Tseng: Yeah, so, I mean, it’s like, okay, let’s say 50% of your time is on delivery right now, 5% of your time on BizOps. Like, the risk is proportionate to, like, how much time you currently spend on it, right?

636 01:07:15.600 ⇒ 01:07:17.690 Uttam Kumaran: I would say, yeah, yeah, like, for sure, yeah.

637 01:07:17.690 ⇒ 01:07:31.569 Robert Tseng: So, I feel like it’s… it’s a given. It’s like, even if we did end up assigning all these people, you know, you’re still going to be thinking about delivery more than you will BizOps, right? So, like, I… I think the… I think the risk is high. And yeah, that should… that should correlate with the cost. How much time you’re.

638 01:07:31.570 ⇒ 01:07:32.820 Uttam Kumaran: I see, yeah, yeah, yeah.

639 01:07:32.820 ⇒ 01:07:33.380 Robert Tseng: Yeah.

640 01:07:33.500 ⇒ 01:07:37.989 Robert Tseng: So I don’t know how much, like, Lauren is, like, I don’t know, do you have, like, a number that we could just put in.

641 01:07:37.990 ⇒ 01:07:42.559 Uttam Kumaran: She… she was open to 40 bucks an hour, so whatever that scales to.

642 01:07:42.560 ⇒ 01:07:47.069 Robert Tseng: Like, about… it’s about 70, I guess, or… Yeah. Let’s just say 70, okay?

643 01:07:47.390 ⇒ 01:07:59.820 Robert Tseng: Yeah, and if we put this at… let’s say this person is 150. Like, this is just base, okay? This person, I think, should also be, like, you know, 70 with… with upside, so…

644 01:08:02.080 ⇒ 01:08:08.330 Robert Tseng: Yeah, whatever, it’ll just be base, and there’s, like, there’s bonuses or whatever, but we’ll just, you know, we’ll just say that.

645 01:08:09.400 ⇒ 01:08:17.800 Robert Tseng: this person, I think, should be, you know, maybe slightly higher, but, like, let’s just say it’s, like, 90, okay? And then we currently pay these people 100.

646 01:08:17.960 ⇒ 01:08:34.720 Robert Tseng: So maybe it ends up being something… shaking out to be something like this. This… these might be slightly below market, whatever, but we have, like, our… you know, we’ve talked about, you know, being able to… we can be more generous with bonuses and stuff. In which case, okay, if you think cost is the main driver, like, let’s just say… I mean, I kind of.

647 01:08:34.729 ⇒ 01:08:39.989 Uttam Kumaran: I think the architects are gonna be higher, dude. Yeah, I think the architects, because this is a squarely, like…

648 01:08:40.250 ⇒ 01:08:40.810 Robert Tseng: Okay.

649 01:08:40.819 ⇒ 01:08:45.999 Uttam Kumaran: Or, well, wait, what is SME Partners to Ops? So these are, like, Yeah.

650 01:08:46.340 ⇒ 01:09:05.639 Robert Tseng: Yeah, so what I kind of thought here was, you know, I don’t think Awash is… is… will be… would be the person for this. I don’t think Awash is an ops person. So, technical architects, like, I… this is, like, from our, strategist, architect-engineer model. Like, I think they’re… they are still, like, they need to be in the room, but I don’t really see…

651 01:09:05.670 ⇒ 01:09:10.920 Robert Tseng: A waste becoming, like, I mean, yeah, he’s like…

652 01:09:12.529 ⇒ 01:09:23.460 Robert Tseng: I can’t really see him running, like, a business unit, you know? And, like, maybe he can… he can flex across many different clients, he can… he can be, like, a technical SME.

653 01:09:23.460 ⇒ 01:09:28.309 Uttam Kumaran: I think he could probably be, like, the star architect, but I don’t think he could run the architect group, but again…

654 01:09:28.310 ⇒ 01:09:43.439 Robert Tseng: Like, I don’t think he would know what to do if I gave him a budget, like, I don’t think he could fit any of these roles. And so, like, him and Sam, even, like, I think they’re, like, they’re good IC engineers, but they’re not, like, gonna be, like, business, like, owners, or, like, yeah. So,

655 01:09:44.029 ⇒ 01:09:45.019 Robert Tseng: But, I mean.

656 01:09:45.029 ⇒ 01:09:48.239 Uttam Kumaran: And so Architect, like, this is the… but I guess my question would be.

657 01:09:48.389 ⇒ 01:09:53.039 Uttam Kumaran: This is someone who understands all of our services from, like.

658 01:09:53.809 ⇒ 01:09:55.599 Uttam Kumaran: The what it is we’re doing.

659 01:09:57.819 ⇒ 01:09:58.369 Uttam Kumaran: Right.

660 01:09:58.370 ⇒ 01:09:59.910 Robert Tseng: Okay? Like…

661 01:10:01.260 ⇒ 01:10:03.900 Uttam Kumaran: I would… I would stink… I think Awash…

662 01:10:04.510 ⇒ 01:10:07.750 Uttam Kumaran: It’s probably the only person that understands.

663 01:10:07.750 ⇒ 01:10:08.030 Robert Tseng: Oh.

664 01:10:09.150 ⇒ 01:10:23.430 Robert Tseng: I mean, you should watch… I mean, I still don’t think Wish gets it. Like, he looks… we did the ICP exercise, and he is so nerdy, like, he’ll say, like, okay, like, what would you pitch to these ICPs? Like, a gaming startups package, like, kind of cool stuff.

665 01:10:23.430 ⇒ 01:10:29.209 Uttam Kumaran: But I guess… but that’s… but again, like, why are… this should be the go-to-market ops person. Why is Awash pitching…

666 01:10:29.390 ⇒ 01:10:29.970 Uttam Kumaran: Why?

667 01:10:29.970 ⇒ 01:10:39.619 Robert Tseng: So I think that’s why I’m trying to move away from, like, this collective, like, oh, we should all pitch into opera sing. I don’t think that really works. But, like, I… I…

668 01:10:39.850 ⇒ 01:10:43.340 Robert Tseng: Yes, it is a go-to-market person’s thing, but, I mean…

669 01:10:45.970 ⇒ 01:10:51.690 Robert Tseng: Well, I guess, do you think there’s a… there’s, like, a fifth ops rule here? Like, I don’t really think there’s another…

670 01:10:51.690 ⇒ 01:11:00.849 Uttam Kumaran: Technical architect… I think the technical architect… but see, I would put… I don’t think technical architects fits here at all. Like, that is squarely part of delivery.

671 01:11:01.050 ⇒ 01:11:01.590 Uttam Kumaran: like.

672 01:11:01.590 ⇒ 01:11:09.380 Robert Tseng: Yeah, so they’re not ops roles, but they’re critical collaborators, they’re people that should be still in the… they should still be… But what about… but there’s… but project man… but…

673 01:11:09.380 ⇒ 01:11:11.609 Uttam Kumaran: Project Management Lead is not on here.

674 01:11:11.960 ⇒ 01:11:15.110 Uttam Kumaran: Right? Or there’s not an analyst lead, or…

675 01:11:15.350 ⇒ 01:11:18.230 Uttam Kumaran: right, these are, I would say, architecture…

676 01:11:18.350 ⇒ 01:11:22.730 Uttam Kumaran: It’s around delivery, and those architects are, like.

677 01:11:23.210 ⇒ 01:11:29.410 Uttam Kumaran: People who, hey, we have 5K, we have 3 months, here’s the objective, How do we get there?

678 01:11:29.660 ⇒ 01:11:33.160 Uttam Kumaran: And they decide the architecture, but they’re not doing it

679 01:11:33.380 ⇒ 01:11:37.950 Uttam Kumaran: for Brain Forge, and they’re not, like, doing it on the go-to- they’re not helping with go-to-market.

680 01:11:38.370 ⇒ 01:11:41.019 Uttam Kumaran: Like, they could help with pre-sales.

681 01:11:41.760 ⇒ 01:11:51.800 Uttam Kumaran: if you want to bring in them for, like, scoping or discovery, but I don’t see these… I don’t think we’re gonna find anybody that’s sick at architecture that’s…

682 01:11:52.120 ⇒ 01:11:55.840 Uttam Kumaran: Any decent at, like, Sales.

683 01:11:56.060 ⇒ 01:11:56.570 Robert Tseng: Okay.

684 01:11:56.570 ⇒ 01:11:57.220 Uttam Kumaran: For the most part.

685 01:11:57.220 ⇒ 01:11:59.480 Robert Tseng: I think… I think that’s fair. Okay.

686 01:12:00.030 ⇒ 01:12:05.149 Robert Tseng: Yeah, I mean, I kinda… was… Yeah, no, I think that’s.

687 01:12:05.150 ⇒ 01:12:10.859 Uttam Kumaran: I hear… I mean, but based on what we’re… I mean, I would love these guys to help, but they’re just… the brains are not…

688 01:12:10.860 ⇒ 01:12:12.940 Robert Tseng: Yeah, there’s… Yeah.

689 01:12:13.130 ⇒ 01:12:14.900 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, it’s just not wiring that way.

690 01:12:15.270 ⇒ 01:12:25.029 Robert Tseng: like, this is like the, if you or I died, like, these four, you know, the collective of these four people should be able to replace one of us. Like, that’s, like, the pie in the sky, like.

691 01:12:25.030 ⇒ 01:12:27.610 Uttam Kumaran: Then the most pressure is on the top one.

692 01:12:28.910 ⇒ 01:12:29.540 Robert Tseng: Yeah.

693 01:12:30.740 ⇒ 01:12:34.450 Uttam Kumaran: And that’s the most… I just think, like… Yeah.

694 01:12:35.710 ⇒ 01:12:42.330 Uttam Kumaran: but this is where I would say the delivery ops lead, I think.

695 01:12:46.300 ⇒ 01:12:54.390 Uttam Kumaran: Under delivery, you have… You have everything from the week-to-week client interactions, you have

696 01:12:54.550 ⇒ 01:13:03.999 Uttam Kumaran: the stand-up, grooming, planning, retro, roadmap, project reviews, right? All of that is under delivery, so…

697 01:13:04.280 ⇒ 01:13:09.580 Uttam Kumaran: I… I’m just trying to… I’m trying to think through, like, delivery ops.

698 01:13:10.230 ⇒ 01:13:16.080 Uttam Kumaran: Like, Delivery Ops owns who’s staffed on each of those responsibilities.

699 01:13:17.260 ⇒ 01:13:23.559 Uttam Kumaran: And is that, like, kind of, like, how we’re thinking about this? Like, for example, Henry would own our allocations.

700 01:13:24.180 ⇒ 01:13:30.419 Uttam Kumaran: Henry would own our week-to-week and month-to-month Clockify margins reporting.

701 01:13:30.780 ⇒ 01:13:39.459 Uttam Kumaran: Henry would own, working with, like… Each, like, basically assigning people

702 01:13:40.760 ⇒ 01:13:47.320 Uttam Kumaran: But there’s still not one person who… Runs client, like, success, basically.

703 01:13:47.830 ⇒ 01:13:48.450 Robert Tseng: Yeah.

704 01:13:48.850 ⇒ 01:13:56.920 Uttam Kumaran: Right? Like… I… this is where, like, I don’t… this is where, like, the promise of ahead of delivery

705 01:13:59.060 ⇒ 01:14:05.430 Uttam Kumaran: I’m not interested in our head of delivery doing this stuff. I’m interested in head of delivery Basically.

706 01:14:07.090 ⇒ 01:14:13.870 Uttam Kumaran: kind of being, like, head of customer success, or like, I don’t know, I don’t know, head of account management, like.

707 01:14:15.320 ⇒ 01:14:16.509 Uttam Kumaran: Right? Like, they…

708 01:14:16.510 ⇒ 01:14:16.840 Robert Tseng: Yeah.

709 01:14:16.840 ⇒ 01:14:19.059 Uttam Kumaran: Have to know every single client.

710 01:14:19.330 ⇒ 01:14:23.869 Uttam Kumaran: And know kind of the teams, and sort of be that, that person, like.

711 01:14:24.370 ⇒ 01:14:26.830 Uttam Kumaran: I still think, like, this doesn’t fully capture that.

712 01:14:27.210 ⇒ 01:14:37.390 Robert Tseng: No, yeah, I mean, that’s… that’s still gonna be… I mean, strategic accounts and sales, I mean, it’s still me and you. Like, I don’t think this solves for that, and I don’t think it has to yet.

713 01:14:37.690 ⇒ 01:14:38.370 Uttam Kumaran: Okay.

714 01:14:38.710 ⇒ 01:14:40.010 Robert Tseng: Just to me, it’s like…

715 01:14:40.010 ⇒ 01:14:46.240 Uttam Kumaran: But can you… can you put… can you just put those two, like, what’s not covered here is… what’s not covered here is that…

716 01:14:47.540 ⇒ 01:14:50.969 Uttam Kumaran: Basically, like, head of delivery, head of account management.

717 01:14:51.310 ⇒ 01:14:53.370 Uttam Kumaran: And what’s not covered here is…

718 01:14:54.190 ⇒ 01:14:57.330 Uttam Kumaran: what’d you say, a CRO, or like, I don’t know, I don’t know.

719 01:15:00.100 ⇒ 01:15:02.020 Robert Tseng: It’s a pretty quiet. Okay.

720 01:15:09.470 ⇒ 01:15:16.169 Uttam Kumaran: Because what I want to do, for example, like, if we take the example of, like, Alex is like, hey, I’m leaving Bridgewater.

721 01:15:16.460 ⇒ 01:15:17.010 Robert Tseng: Yeah.

722 01:15:17.010 ⇒ 01:15:21.220 Uttam Kumaran: I want to go to him and basically say, okay, here’s… Here’s, like.

723 01:15:22.000 ⇒ 01:15:24.910 Uttam Kumaran: You’re too senior to be on one client.

724 01:15:25.230 ⇒ 01:15:25.850 Robert Tseng: Yeah.

725 01:15:26.270 ⇒ 01:15:28.100 Uttam Kumaran: you’re… but I also…

726 01:15:28.580 ⇒ 01:15:33.339 Uttam Kumaran: you’re too senior to go in and be a PM. I’m not… can’t have you be a PM. I’m doing that with, like.

727 01:15:33.790 ⇒ 01:15:36.749 Uttam Kumaran: 90 seconds of time, so we can’t have you do that.

728 01:15:37.240 ⇒ 01:15:39.310 Uttam Kumaran: But where do you fit? Like…

729 01:15:40.340 ⇒ 01:15:46.429 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, that’s basically what I want to… Tell him, like, you… Is it delivery ops?

730 01:15:47.170 ⇒ 01:15:48.940 Uttam Kumaran: Is it head of delivery?

731 01:15:49.340 ⇒ 01:15:54.570 Uttam Kumaran: And if it’s head of delivery, I better hear how it’s any different than the last head of delivery, because that was useless.

732 01:15:54.870 ⇒ 01:15:55.750 Uttam Kumaran: You know?

733 01:15:56.120 ⇒ 01:15:56.710 Robert Tseng: Yeah.

734 01:15:57.140 ⇒ 01:15:57.990 Uttam Kumaran: So…

735 01:15:58.250 ⇒ 01:16:03.609 Uttam Kumaran: that’s kind of, like, where I would… I would ask him, and this is… these are the openings we have for someone of his seniority.

736 01:16:04.860 ⇒ 01:16:05.550 Robert Tseng: Okay.

737 01:16:05.770 ⇒ 01:16:07.889 Robert Tseng: Yeah, let me… let me think about…

738 01:16:07.890 ⇒ 01:16:12.070 Uttam Kumaran: But also, if head of delivery is not on the table, then it’s not on the table.

739 01:16:16.430 ⇒ 01:16:19.289 Uttam Kumaran: I just think there’s something around this, like,

740 01:16:25.430 ⇒ 01:16:34.760 Uttam Kumaran: Because this person should… should not always see eye to eye with the delivery ops lead. For example, there’s times where we’re spending more money on a client

741 01:16:34.830 ⇒ 01:16:51.089 Uttam Kumaran: or less money on a client strategically, but the client winning and everything sort of being set up for the client to run smoothly has to happen, but that head of delivery has to… has to almost ensure that every delivery-related activity is running

742 01:16:51.100 ⇒ 01:16:54.969 Uttam Kumaran: And those are… and you’re not just running those for the sake of running

743 01:16:55.110 ⇒ 01:17:00.849 Uttam Kumaran: stand-ups. You’re running it so that, like, we’re… we have a renewal coming up.

744 01:17:01.030 ⇒ 01:17:08.019 Uttam Kumaran: or we have a review tomorrow, but this needs to… like, that person has to be doing that math, and I think it’s too much

745 01:17:08.600 ⇒ 01:17:12.930 Uttam Kumaran: It’s too much to put on the delivery ops lead to do that, and this is…

746 01:17:13.460 ⇒ 01:17:18.590 Uttam Kumaran: This is truly, sort of, like, some type of, like, head of delivery or head of account management or something.

747 01:17:20.830 ⇒ 01:17:21.720 Uttam Kumaran: I don’t know.

748 01:17:22.180 ⇒ 01:17:22.830 Robert Tseng: Okay.

749 01:17:24.310 ⇒ 01:17:24.900 Robert Tseng: Yeah.

750 01:17:24.900 ⇒ 01:17:35.550 Uttam Kumaran: you know, the alternative that they say is, oh, get a… get a lead PM, and then get a lead architect, but then all… these are just, like, all people that are throwing the ball around, like…

751 01:17:36.960 ⇒ 01:17:40.599 Uttam Kumaran: I would rather have that be super high bar.

752 01:17:40.750 ⇒ 01:17:46.309 Uttam Kumaran: And we wait to find that perfect person, then get 3 people to do, like, 30% of each.

753 01:17:46.520 ⇒ 01:17:47.160 Robert Tseng: Yeah.

754 01:17:47.640 ⇒ 01:18:00.609 Uttam Kumaran: You know, and this is where maybe we go after… I’m having Ryan go look at, like, people with insights in their title, insights lead, head of insights at, like, Accenture, and these… maybe these are, like, the folks that, like, they’re used to sort of being

755 01:18:01.890 ⇒ 01:18:04.969 Uttam Kumaran: Almost like managing a portfolio of clients.

756 01:18:05.290 ⇒ 01:18:14.840 Uttam Kumaran: it’s almost like kind of being an MD in some sense, where you get pulled into the client meetings, or maybe you’re pushing things forward where you know there’s risks.

757 01:18:14.840 ⇒ 01:18:16.590 Robert Tseng: So that will cover this person.

758 01:18:17.050 ⇒ 01:18:18.460 Robert Tseng: But… yeah.

759 01:18:18.460 ⇒ 01:18:19.760 Uttam Kumaran: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

760 01:18:19.760 ⇒ 01:18:37.830 Robert Tseng: Yeah, I… this person, to me, is, like, delivery enablement, and it’s maybe, like, what we considered lead PM before. Yes, allocations, margin reporting, they need to know how to, like, leverage AI in delivery process, like, they own that.

761 01:18:38.860 ⇒ 01:18:41.310 Uttam Kumaran: I would say owning all the tools around delivery, so, like.

762 01:18:41.310 ⇒ 01:18:41.640 Robert Tseng: Yeah.

763 01:18:41.640 ⇒ 01:18:48.170 Uttam Kumaran: Linear, Clockify, all that shit, like, they own all the structure around around…

764 01:18:48.540 ⇒ 01:18:54.819 Uttam Kumaran: That, and then… but most importantly, they own their weekly, weekly and daily reporting cadence.

765 01:18:55.090 ⇒ 01:19:00.759 Uttam Kumaran: Like, we should be able to see on a weekly basis They own the hours closeout.

766 01:19:01.180 ⇒ 01:19:10.980 Uttam Kumaran: margin reporting, forecast, on margin, right? Everything around margin, yeah, could be case studies as well.

767 01:19:10.980 ⇒ 01:19:13.190 Robert Tseng: Like, yeah, they have to, like…

768 01:19:13.660 ⇒ 01:19:25.379 Robert Tseng: they’re like the controllers of the project, and they need to be able to tell, like, they need to be able to communicate the ROI of it, is kind of how I see it. Whereas this person is more of, like.

769 01:19:27.690 ⇒ 01:19:39.120 Robert Tseng: Yeah, like, they’re going in to actually… I mean, this is still, like, we may not find this externally, for now, this is still what we have to drive our internal folks to, but, like.

770 01:19:40.430 ⇒ 01:19:56.019 Robert Tseng: no one in our business, aside from us, has been involved in an upsell conversation successfully, nor have they expanded business or anything like that, or, yeah, or, like, been able to handle the highest escalations. Like, I think, yeah, we’re still missing that person.

771 01:19:56.700 ⇒ 01:19:57.510 Robert Tseng: Yeah.

772 01:20:01.120 ⇒ 01:20:12.940 Robert Tseng: But yeah, this person will know our bit… will be able to understand the economics of each project, because that, you know, our delivery is our product. So, and… and,

773 01:20:12.990 ⇒ 01:20:32.229 Robert Tseng: if they need anything, like, clarity and, like, boy, they’re responsible for feeding, kind of, the go-to-market team, making sure that they’re able to get information that they need from the case studies and the wins, and to help with their positioning. And if they need anything from the AI team, in order to continue to drive more.

774 01:20:32.510 ⇒ 01:20:33.850 Robert Tseng: To drive better margins.

775 01:20:33.850 ⇒ 01:20:34.480 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

776 01:20:34.480 ⇒ 01:20:35.900 Robert Tseng: That’s kind of what it is, so…

777 01:20:35.900 ⇒ 01:20:36.440 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.

778 01:20:39.730 ⇒ 01:20:47.219 Robert Tseng: Yeah. So, yeah, not covered here. Client engagement lead, you know, basically technical, architects.

779 01:20:49.250 ⇒ 01:21:00.930 Robert Tseng: Yeah, so they’re not covered here. Okay, so this is still, like, a class of, like, IC level, like, mostly external facing, like, mostly external facing.

780 01:21:01.290 ⇒ 01:21:05.959 Robert Tseng: So, like, you know, 60… you know, I would say probably, like, 80% plus.

781 01:21:06.290 ⇒ 01:21:07.100 Robert Tseng: you know.

782 01:21:08.510 ⇒ 01:21:09.110 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.

783 01:21:09.250 ⇒ 01:21:12.300 Robert Tseng: And then this one is more like,

784 01:21:20.920 ⇒ 01:21:22.359 Robert Tseng: What’s the internal.

785 01:21:23.970 ⇒ 01:21:26.619 Robert Tseng: Placing. So, they’re probably, like…

786 01:21:27.400 ⇒ 01:21:33.679 Robert Tseng: 80% internal, really. But I don’t know, that doesn’t really feel right, too. Maybe it’s more, like.

787 01:21:34.250 ⇒ 01:21:36.279 Robert Tseng: 50% internal.

788 01:21:39.980 ⇒ 01:21:52.910 Robert Tseng: like, in order to afford these people, unless we run fundraise, like, we wouldn’t be able to, like, they need to still be billable to some way, or, like, they need to have, like, a clear revenue, like, outcome to at least pay for themselves. Like, that’s… that would be ideal for each of these people.

789 01:21:52.910 ⇒ 01:22:06.670 Robert Tseng: But obviously, the BizOps person can’t pay for themselves, the platform ops person can’t pay… so we have to, like, make it… structure it so that they pay for themselves, like, off of, like, the value that they bring in, purely off of billable hours or, like, sales generated.

790 01:22:07.510 ⇒ 01:22:09.230 Robert Tseng: Yeah, something like that.

791 01:22:09.500 ⇒ 01:22:14.280 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, but BizOps is purely, like, if they free us to sell more, then there’s opportunity there.

792 01:22:14.460 ⇒ 01:22:18.040 Robert Tseng: Yeah, yeah, so there’s different ways to kind of, like, model that out.

793 01:22:18.170 ⇒ 01:22:23.960 Robert Tseng: But, yeah, that’s kind of what I… this can’t be a cost center for us, is my point.

794 01:22:24.080 ⇒ 01:22:27.189 Robert Tseng: So… Yeah, if we need to, like.

795 01:22:27.640 ⇒ 01:22:32.440 Robert Tseng: Because, I mean, we may not have gotten out of the place where people are truly able to, like…

796 01:22:33.750 ⇒ 01:22:39.570 Robert Tseng: I don’t know who you’re talking to, but I… okay, let’s, let’s just, you know.

797 01:22:39.880 ⇒ 01:22:46.970 Robert Tseng: We don’t have… One more thought on this. So, like, assuming this was Amber, it’s like, okay.

798 01:22:47.480 ⇒ 01:22:53.589 Robert Tseng: Well, she can be doing all this, but then she still needs to have… she needs to make her time billable enough.

799 01:22:53.590 ⇒ 01:22:59.129 Uttam Kumaran: I… but I didn’t… I didn’t… I didn’t set her up to… for that. Like, we didn’t truly say…

800 01:22:59.450 ⇒ 01:23:03.360 Uttam Kumaran: 70… 30, or 50-50.

801 01:23:03.520 ⇒ 01:23:04.520 Robert Tseng: Right.

802 01:23:04.930 ⇒ 01:23:05.980 Uttam Kumaran: So…

803 01:23:06.960 ⇒ 01:23:12.720 Robert Tseng: And I’m not saying that this will be Amber or should be Amber, maybe it should be, I’m not really sure.

804 01:23:13.080 ⇒ 01:23:16.540 Robert Tseng: I mean, if it is, then, like, this actually is not that expensive of a team.

805 01:23:16.740 ⇒ 01:23:17.460 Robert Tseng: Yeah.

806 01:23:17.790 ⇒ 01:23:20.520 Uttam Kumaran: But then, again, what you’re risking is that, like, she’s not…

807 01:23:20.520 ⇒ 01:23:25.429 Robert Tseng: And then we would get back to the same point, where, like, these aren’t truly superstars, like, we want, we want the, we want…

808 01:23:25.430 ⇒ 01:23:32.509 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I’m not… I’m just not trying to, like… I don’t mind if people get there eventually, but, like, I just think we need some of this, like, right now.

809 01:23:32.730 ⇒ 01:23:33.260 Robert Tseng: Yeah.

810 01:23:33.260 ⇒ 01:23:37.150 Uttam Kumaran: And…

811 01:23:39.280 ⇒ 01:23:44.980 Uttam Kumaran: I mean, I would… I want people to think of it as, like, if we don’t hit these metrics, like, I’m going to get fired.

812 01:23:45.460 ⇒ 01:23:46.080 Robert Tseng: Yeah.

813 01:23:46.210 ⇒ 01:23:51.900 Uttam Kumaran: So… That’s the expectation I want to set.

814 01:23:52.000 ⇒ 01:23:56.730 Uttam Kumaran: And… Okay, so let’s think of… let’s… let me just, like, sleep on my…

815 01:23:56.730 ⇒ 01:23:57.190 Robert Tseng: Yep.

816 01:23:57.190 ⇒ 01:24:01.620 Uttam Kumaran: And I’ll kind of go through Rolodex, and we can start to think through people for each of these.

817 01:24:03.770 ⇒ 01:24:08.470 Uttam Kumaran: And then consider it. Like, I don’t mind if we don’t have it internally right now. It’s… it’s fine.

818 01:24:09.740 ⇒ 01:24:10.070 Robert Tseng: Okay.

819 01:24:10.070 ⇒ 01:24:11.029 Uttam Kumaran: But, yeah.

820 01:24:11.030 ⇒ 01:24:21.950 Robert Tseng: Yeah, the rest is, like, kind of basically three versions of saying the same thing. But, you know, I think, like, kind of, if I could just kind of quickly say, so what I was thinking is, okay, I mean.

821 01:24:21.950 ⇒ 01:24:26.329 Uttam Kumaran: I gotta jump to this, Magic Spoon call in, like, just a sec.

822 01:24:26.880 ⇒ 01:24:31.320 Robert Tseng: Okay, then maybe we come back to this later. We’ll have another call. All good.

823 01:24:31.320 ⇒ 01:24:32.310 Uttam Kumaran: Okay, okay.

824 01:24:32.310 ⇒ 01:24:32.930 Robert Tseng: Alright.

825 01:24:33.150 ⇒ 01:24:35.100 Uttam Kumaran: Alright, dude. Thank you. Take you later.