Meeting Title: Brainforge Marketing Strategy Sync Date: 2026-01-06 Meeting participants: Luke’s Notetaker, Luke Scorziell, Zoran Selinger
WEBVTT
1 00:01:26.270 ⇒ 00:01:27.130 Zoran Selinger: Hello!
2 00:01:27.380 ⇒ 00:01:28.969 Luke Scorziell: Hey, Zoran, how’s it going?
3 00:01:29.480 ⇒ 00:01:33.180 Zoran Selinger: Yeah, good, a little bit, rushing, I just…
4 00:01:33.330 ⇒ 00:01:40.319 Zoran Selinger: an hour late, back home. We visited some family, today. There’s a national holiday here.
5 00:01:40.660 ⇒ 00:01:41.820 Luke Scorziell: Oh, oh, dang.
6 00:01:41.820 ⇒ 00:01:46.560 Zoran Selinger: We have actually heavy snow and got stuck at the border a little bit as well.
7 00:01:46.670 ⇒ 00:01:49.689 Zoran Selinger: So I’m just late to everything today.
8 00:01:49.910 ⇒ 00:01:52.669 Luke Scorziell: No, that’s fine. Where… where are you, where are you from? Where are you living?
9 00:01:52.670 ⇒ 00:01:55.340 Zoran Selinger: I’m… I’m from Croatia.
10 00:01:56.310 ⇒ 00:01:57.019 Luke Scorziell: Okay, oh.
11 00:01:57.020 ⇒ 00:02:05.760 Zoran Selinger: Croatia, yeah, we are very close to a border with Bosnia as well, so we have some family there, so we’re across the border, and just.
12 00:02:05.760 ⇒ 00:02:06.190 Luke Scorziell: Huh.
13 00:02:06.280 ⇒ 00:02:17.089 Zoran Selinger: Visiting them, and got a little bit stuck in the queue at the border, and then heavy snow started falling, so I was basically driving half the speed I normally would.
14 00:02:17.090 ⇒ 00:02:19.200 Luke Scorziell: Yeah, yeah. How is,
15 00:02:20.050 ⇒ 00:02:25.959 Luke Scorziell: That’s funny, one of my past clients, who I’m pretty close with, is from Croatia, and he’s, like, a big…
16 00:02:26.570 ⇒ 00:02:29.349 Luke Scorziell: He’s like Mr. Croatia in LA. He’s…
17 00:02:29.540 ⇒ 00:02:30.460 Zoran Selinger: You’re like, man.
18 00:02:30.460 ⇒ 00:02:32.009 Luke Scorziell: at the,
19 00:02:32.190 ⇒ 00:02:36.810 Luke Scorziell: He’s doing, like, a documentary on their basketball team from a few years ago, and then,
20 00:02:36.950 ⇒ 00:02:41.649 Luke Scorziell: Or I don’t know how long ago, it was a while ago. I think it was during Clinton’s presidency, and then,
21 00:02:42.190 ⇒ 00:02:47.280 Luke Scorziell: Yeah, I think he’s hosting, like, the Croatian Olympic Committee or some…
22 00:02:47.280 ⇒ 00:02:48.150 Zoran Selinger: Oh, okay.
23 00:02:48.150 ⇒ 00:02:51.480 Luke Scorziell: Big thing for the Olympics in 2028, because I’m in LA.
24 00:02:51.960 ⇒ 00:02:59.779 Luke Scorziell: So… But yeah, so that’s cool. I, you’ll… you’re the first person I know from…
25 00:03:00.190 ⇒ 00:03:01.790 Luke Scorziell: From Croatia.
26 00:03:02.310 ⇒ 00:03:04.449 Luke Scorziell: Or, like, in Croatia right now.
27 00:03:04.450 ⇒ 00:03:06.270 Zoran Selinger: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
28 00:03:07.330 ⇒ 00:03:09.990 Luke Scorziell: so…
29 00:03:13.280 ⇒ 00:03:14.280 Luke Scorziell: Let’s see…
30 00:03:14.280 ⇒ 00:03:18.229 Zoran Selinger: Yeah, so we… so we wanted to talk about this speech.
31 00:03:18.330 ⇒ 00:03:21.190 Zoran Selinger: But you also had some other things to talk about?
32 00:03:21.680 ⇒ 00:03:27.600 Luke Scorziell: Yeah, I mean, I think I just was hoping to get a call with you, like,
33 00:03:28.650 ⇒ 00:03:37.120 Luke Scorziell: I know, before the, like, Christmas and everything, just to kind of get to know you and catch up. So we don’t, like, it’s… we don’t need, like, an official… I don’t have any official, like, anything on that.
34 00:03:37.120 ⇒ 00:03:38.039 Zoran Selinger: Okay. Cool.
35 00:03:38.040 ⇒ 00:03:41.200 Luke Scorziell: But, yeah, good to chat, so…
36 00:03:41.360 ⇒ 00:03:49.360 Luke Scorziell: Well, yeah, so I am, just to give you context, coming in as the go-to-market coordinator, And…
37 00:03:49.790 ⇒ 00:03:56.300 Luke Scorziell: have a… You know, a good amount of marketing.
38 00:03:56.770 ⇒ 00:04:00.490 Luke Scorziell: knowledge and experience, I would say, like, on the AI side.
39 00:04:00.660 ⇒ 00:04:08.630 Luke Scorziell: I personally like to play around with tools and stuff, but, like, the depth, obviously, at which the engineers know.
40 00:04:08.820 ⇒ 00:04:12.260 Luke Scorziell: The services and everything, so I’m still…
41 00:04:12.390 ⇒ 00:04:18.029 Luke Scorziell: in a lot of ways, getting up to speed. So I might be a good, like, non-technical person to learn how to pitch, I guess.
42 00:04:18.140 ⇒ 00:04:19.050 Luke Scorziell: Yeah, yeah.
43 00:04:19.540 ⇒ 00:04:25.820 Luke Scorziell: But, but yeah, I think kind of my hope is that we can start translating a lot of the services that Brainforge
44 00:04:25.990 ⇒ 00:04:34.420 Luke Scorziell: has into, like, Clear, kind of non-jargony speech that, like…
45 00:04:35.280 ⇒ 00:04:39.429 Luke Scorziell: Connects emotionally with the buyer, especially if they’re someone that, like.
46 00:04:39.650 ⇒ 00:04:44.939 Luke Scorziell: there’s pressure on them to, like, get the stuff cleaned up and fixed,
47 00:04:45.210 ⇒ 00:04:48.219 Luke Scorziell: And then, too, like, just is able to speak
48 00:04:48.450 ⇒ 00:04:51.369 Luke Scorziell: Like, clearly about revenue outcomes and,
49 00:04:51.920 ⇒ 00:04:56.390 Luke Scorziell: How… how the mechanics of what we’re doing is gonna translate into…
50 00:04:57.000 ⇒ 00:04:58.060 Zoran Selinger: more…
51 00:04:58.060 ⇒ 00:05:12.589 Luke Scorziell: efficiency for the business, better reporting, more organized data, like, all of those different things, so… so, yeah, I… so I’m curious. That’s kind of where I’m coming from. I guess you’re working on…
52 00:05:13.050 ⇒ 00:05:15.620 Luke Scorziell: The edge to activation is kind of in your main…
53 00:05:16.560 ⇒ 00:05:20.539 Zoran Selinger: I mean, it’s… listen, that just came from trying to solve a problem, you know?
54 00:05:20.540 ⇒ 00:05:21.020 Luke Scorziell: Okay.
55 00:05:21.020 ⇒ 00:05:31.079 Zoran Selinger: I came on board as a, you know, like a web tagging specialist with a lot of experience in actually running marketing campaigns, and, you know, I’m…
56 00:05:31.700 ⇒ 00:05:51.200 Zoran Selinger: kind of a technical marketing guy. I’ve done almost everything there is in digital marketing over the years. So, like, there’s… I do have a wide array of experiences, but I mostly came on as a, as, you know, a kind of senior technical person.
57 00:05:51.380 ⇒ 00:05:58.330 Zoran Selinger: And this just came… came about just… I was trying to solve a problem. There was this opportunity, and I…
58 00:05:58.860 ⇒ 00:06:02.640 Zoran Selinger: But basically, thought of it, and it worked.
59 00:06:02.940 ⇒ 00:06:04.490 Zoran Selinger: Amazingly well.
60 00:06:04.700 ⇒ 00:06:10.199 Zoran Selinger: Right. So, obviously, we want to make it, we want to make it a service.
61 00:06:10.390 ⇒ 00:06:15.590 Luke Scorziell: Well, tell me about the… like, tell me about the problem that you were solving, like, what… what…
62 00:06:16.010 ⇒ 00:06:19.850 Luke Scorziell: Give me the context, and where were you, and what was the client needing, and…
63 00:06:20.570 ⇒ 00:06:28.780 Zoran Selinger: Yeah, so specifically in this case, we had a, we had a problem with, we cannot, we couldn’t track anything on the thank you page.
64 00:06:29.460 ⇒ 00:06:30.259 Luke Scorziell: Oh, interesting, okay.
65 00:06:30.260 ⇒ 00:06:42.640 Zoran Selinger: Yeah, we couldn’t… we don’t have a Google Tag Manager container installed on the Thank You page, and it’s not an option. They don’t offer, like, Basque for Eden, so you know what BASC is? It’s the intake?
66 00:06:43.100 ⇒ 00:06:47.850 Zoran Selinger: It’s… basically, it’s… this is not something built by Eden.
67 00:06:48.080 ⇒ 00:06:52.520 Zoran Selinger: They… Bot has, like, an intake form thing.
68 00:06:52.670 ⇒ 00:07:01.629 Zoran Selinger: Where you go through all the questions about… about your health, and doctors, and to get qualified for a specific drug, right? Yeah.
69 00:07:01.810 ⇒ 00:07:09.979 Zoran Selinger: Yeah, so there’s quite a lot of questions, there’s, like, there can be document uploads, and Basque is a provider of that flow.
70 00:07:10.330 ⇒ 00:07:15.449 Zoran Selinger: So it’s a third-party tool that is hosted on Trident’s domain.
71 00:07:15.660 ⇒ 00:07:27.989 Zoran Selinger: And you might know that for Shopify, for example, sometimes you cannot install codes. If you don’t have premium, you cannot install codes in the checkout, for example. Checkout is just stock.
72 00:07:28.390 ⇒ 00:07:34.039 Zoran Selinger: is the same thing with the thank you page for Basque. So, we couldn’t… However.
73 00:07:34.280 ⇒ 00:07:39.599 Zoran Selinger: Since the website and even that Basque part is hosted on Cloudflare.
74 00:07:40.740 ⇒ 00:07:46.170 Zoran Selinger: We… Cloudflare sees all the page loads, even the thank you page page loads.
75 00:07:46.340 ⇒ 00:07:56.830 Zoran Selinger: And there are things that we can run inside Cloudflare, the code that we can run, that actually sees those page loads. So we do have
76 00:07:57.230 ⇒ 00:07:59.500 Zoran Selinger: A place where we can run stuff.
77 00:07:59.920 ⇒ 00:08:05.769 Zoran Selinger: It doesn’t have to be Google Tag Manager, but we can run stuff inside Cloudflare.
78 00:08:06.200 ⇒ 00:08:15.450 Zoran Selinger: So that’s the edge. This is the edge. So we see all the requests. Anyone trying to load the page, we see it, and we have some information
79 00:08:16.260 ⇒ 00:08:18.930 Zoran Selinger: At that point, that we can pick up.
80 00:08:19.080 ⇒ 00:08:24.280 Zoran Selinger: So, we solved the… we solved the issue of… of,
81 00:08:26.120 ⇒ 00:08:30.630 Zoran Selinger: of running things on the thank you page, which we couldn’t do before, but
82 00:08:31.960 ⇒ 00:08:36.969 Zoran Selinger: Amazing added benefit of it is the accuracy of reporting.
83 00:08:37.419 ⇒ 00:08:40.129 Luke Scorziell: Which is, like, 95%, right, or something?
84 00:08:40.429 ⇒ 00:08:41.989 Zoran Selinger: It’s… it’s even more.
85 00:08:42.109 ⇒ 00:08:46.559 Luke Scorziell: Really? But I think we can… we can say 95+.
86 00:08:47.199 ⇒ 00:08:53.799 Zoran Selinger: I think… Because, basically, we are acting on every single page load, so we see everything.
87 00:08:54.159 ⇒ 00:08:55.039 Luke Scorziell: Hmm.
88 00:08:55.039 ⇒ 00:09:01.789 Zoran Selinger: When we… when we say about… when we say page load, for example, Google Tag Manager, they have the concept of page load.
89 00:09:02.019 ⇒ 00:09:07.079 Zoran Selinger: But for Google Tag Manager to see the page load, the website needs to load.
90 00:09:07.429 ⇒ 00:09:12.779 Zoran Selinger: the goal… the Google container snippet, the code, has to load.
91 00:09:13.200 ⇒ 00:09:13.919 Luke Scorziell: Huh.
92 00:09:13.920 ⇒ 00:09:16.170 Zoran Selinger: GTM container has to be fired.
93 00:09:16.610 ⇒ 00:09:23.899 Zoran Selinger: And only then, GTM sees it. Obviously, modern tracking prevention sometimes prevents this. This is why we have
94 00:09:24.040 ⇒ 00:09:33.469 Zoran Selinger: You know, accuracy of 80%, typically, 85%, 75% of accuracy tracking, because a lot of people have blockers now.
95 00:09:34.730 ⇒ 00:09:38.810 Luke Scorziell: Yeah. Why this solves the problem is because this doesn’t happen.
96 00:09:38.810 ⇒ 00:09:39.900 Zoran Selinger: on the page.
97 00:09:40.490 ⇒ 00:09:42.189 Zoran Selinger: But before the page.
98 00:09:43.130 ⇒ 00:09:43.610 Luke Scorziell: Check this.
99 00:09:43.610 ⇒ 00:09:50.579 Zoran Selinger: Before the page loads, So when you request to load the page, when you ask the server
100 00:09:51.340 ⇒ 00:09:54.830 Zoran Selinger: To load a specific page, this is when it fires.
101 00:09:55.330 ⇒ 00:09:58.550 Zoran Selinger: So you’re tracking prevention, nothing comes into place.
102 00:09:58.650 ⇒ 00:09:59.839 Zoran Selinger: At that moment.
103 00:10:01.080 ⇒ 00:10:01.780 Zoran Selinger: for that.
104 00:10:01.880 ⇒ 00:10:06.169 Zoran Selinger: Your browser did not access our page yet. At all.
105 00:10:07.040 ⇒ 00:10:10.040 Zoran Selinger: And we capture that request. That request…
106 00:10:10.150 ⇒ 00:10:18.520 Zoran Selinger: obviously has your IP, your user agent, your, let’s say, location, We can read the cookies.
107 00:10:18.810 ⇒ 00:10:21.059 Zoran Selinger: Which is a huge part of this.
108 00:10:21.910 ⇒ 00:10:32.590 Zoran Selinger: first-party cookies, of course, right? The ones that were actually set up by our own website. So, first parties… first-party cookies can be read.
109 00:10:33.120 ⇒ 00:10:33.620 Luke Scorziell: Yeah.
110 00:10:33.620 ⇒ 00:10:35.259 Zoran Selinger: This is where our…
111 00:10:35.380 ⇒ 00:10:55.229 Zoran Selinger: identifiers for all those different places come from. This is how we identify the same person on multiple devices, or in multiple sessions, and all that stuff. Because we can… and I call it the request level. So, on the request level, we can… we can pick up all this information.
112 00:10:56.140 ⇒ 00:10:56.930 Luke Scorziell: Huh.
113 00:10:56.960 ⇒ 00:11:03.049 Zoran Selinger: That all of that happens not on the website, in your browser, but before.
114 00:11:04.120 ⇒ 00:11:11.620 Zoran Selinger: And that is what gives us this accuracy, because if it’s not happening in the client or the browser.
115 00:11:11.780 ⇒ 00:11:12.380 Luke Scorziell: Yeah.
116 00:11:12.650 ⇒ 00:11:15.279 Zoran Selinger: Nothing can block it yet, right?
117 00:11:15.390 ⇒ 00:11:18.940 Zoran Selinger: There’s no blocking technology outside of the browser.
118 00:11:19.900 ⇒ 00:11:20.750 Luke Scorziell: Hun.
119 00:11:21.510 ⇒ 00:11:23.530 Luke Scorziell: And…
120 00:11:23.530 ⇒ 00:11:25.230 Zoran Selinger: That’s where accuracy comes from.
121 00:11:25.880 ⇒ 00:11:28.910 Luke Scorziell: Yeah, and that… so, with,
122 00:11:31.370 ⇒ 00:11:33.189 Luke Scorziell: Okay, I guess a couple things.
123 00:11:34.600 ⇒ 00:11:46.780 Luke Scorziell: the benefits of that are what… so, being able to track, like, who completed the form, or I mean, like I said, that’s just one use case, but you can track and then run, like, retargeting campaigns, or…
124 00:11:46.780 ⇒ 00:11:54.410 Zoran Selinger: Anything you can think of, really. So, anything that’s typically done in advertising, you can do, you can do with this.
125 00:11:56.250 ⇒ 00:11:59.710 Zoran Selinger: the main benefit is the accuracy. For example, for Eden.
126 00:12:00.330 ⇒ 00:12:17.129 Zoran Selinger: let’s say Segment is a typical, typical third-party tool that you would use to track what people do on your website, which are conversions, micro-conversions, macro conversions, everything else. And this is… most companies rely on Segment to do this.
127 00:12:17.240 ⇒ 00:12:28.000 Zoran Selinger: This is on the client side, so in the browser, okay? Yeah. So when we compared our Edge data with segment, we saw 17%
128 00:12:28.200 ⇒ 00:12:29.230 Zoran Selinger: more.
129 00:12:30.190 ⇒ 00:12:31.869 Zoran Selinger: more transactions.
130 00:12:32.670 ⇒ 00:12:34.870 Zoran Selinger: Wow. Then, what’s in segment?
131 00:12:35.650 ⇒ 00:12:39.230 Zoran Selinger: They miss stuff, because… Browsers block it.
132 00:12:39.420 ⇒ 00:12:45.579 Zoran Selinger: So you are basically, when you are a decision maker, and when you look at the data.
133 00:12:46.640 ⇒ 00:13:05.310 Zoran Selinger: you think about this, okay, this is, like, there’s 17% margin of error now in our segment data, and that makes me uncomfortable. I don’t know, you’ve been in marketing for a while, you might know, but in tracking, we were always fine with 5% of error.
134 00:13:06.610 ⇒ 00:13:22.730 Zoran Selinger: We were always fine with 5%. Everyone’s happy with that. And we never, ever… like, I installed thousands of GTM containers, and I never… I’ve never promised 100%, but not… we were always happy with 95% accuracy.
135 00:13:23.460 ⇒ 00:13:25.410 Zoran Selinger: All the modern tracking prevention.
136 00:13:26.090 ⇒ 00:13:36.140 Zoran Selinger: Some websites, especially when they have, like, a techie, younger audiences that are going to employ blockers.
137 00:13:36.360 ⇒ 00:13:38.320 Zoran Selinger: VPNs, stuff like that.
138 00:13:38.840 ⇒ 00:13:39.230 Luke Scorziell: Huh.
139 00:13:39.230 ⇒ 00:13:43.490 Zoran Selinger: They sometimes get hit, like, they lose 40% of the data overnight.
140 00:13:44.700 ⇒ 00:13:45.270 Luke Scorziell: Wow.
141 00:13:45.380 ⇒ 00:13:54.929 Zoran Selinger: Right? This is a problem. But for most websites, we are now between 20 and 40% of lost data, for most websites.
142 00:13:55.820 ⇒ 00:13:56.480 Luke Scorziell: Yeah.
143 00:13:57.380 ⇒ 00:14:01.010 Zoran Selinger: So, getting back to a 95%,
144 00:14:01.240 ⇒ 00:14:10.379 Zoran Selinger: is amazing. I was also, comparing, the Edge with the social true, the real data, and we are 3% off.
145 00:14:10.800 ⇒ 00:14:19.609 Zoran Selinger: For Eden at the mo… first part of December, for example. I took, I think, from the 1st to the 12th, I took 12 days there.
146 00:14:19.740 ⇒ 00:14:21.800 Zoran Selinger: 3% off, on average.
147 00:14:23.420 ⇒ 00:14:25.140 Luke Scorziell: Which is pretty, pretty good.
148 00:14:25.330 ⇒ 00:14:28.529 Zoran Selinger: That’s unheard of at the moment, in this climate.
149 00:14:29.000 ⇒ 00:14:31.019 Luke Scorziell: And so… yeah.
150 00:14:31.280 ⇒ 00:14:37.180 Luke Scorziell: And, okay, so then the question that comes up in my mind then is, like, ethically thinking about
151 00:14:38.040 ⇒ 00:14:45.739 Luke Scorziell: As… so users are trying to block you from seeing their website, but then you’re still accessing that, so how do you think about that?
152 00:14:46.950 ⇒ 00:14:48.549 Zoran Selinger: No, I, I don’t.
153 00:14:49.000 ⇒ 00:14:56.400 Zoran Selinger: Yeah, I don’t. I think it… right now, obviously, I’m aware that this is a problem, and I wrote it somewhere. I wrote it somewhere.
154 00:14:56.400 ⇒ 00:14:57.290 Luke Scorziell: Yeah, yeah.
155 00:14:57.290 ⇒ 00:14:58.519 Zoran Selinger: In a document.
156 00:14:59.520 ⇒ 00:15:06.119 Zoran Selinger: this is, like, a perfectly, like, just a legal question to me.
157 00:15:06.230 ⇒ 00:15:11.899 Zoran Selinger: I do… I like privacy, and I think people have right to the privacy.
158 00:15:12.050 ⇒ 00:15:13.170 Luke Scorziell: Yeah.
159 00:15:14.790 ⇒ 00:15:21.170 Zoran Selinger: The problem for us is that we do… so, anonymized identifiers are not a problem.
160 00:15:21.890 ⇒ 00:15:22.700 Luke Scorziell: Okay.
161 00:15:22.700 ⇒ 00:15:30.760 Zoran Selinger: The problem is where we, link those, anonymous identifiers with actual PII.
162 00:15:31.230 ⇒ 00:15:32.450 Zoran Selinger: Which we do.
163 00:15:33.560 ⇒ 00:15:34.369 Luke Scorziell: Huh.
164 00:15:34.370 ⇒ 00:15:40.330 Zoran Selinger: Yeah, so that is a, you know, potential problem. Having blockers.
165 00:15:40.450 ⇒ 00:15:48.610 Zoran Selinger: Is not, is not, legally is not, is not, the declining of the consent.
166 00:15:49.290 ⇒ 00:15:56.510 Zoran Selinger: Declining of the consent is when they actually pressed a button that they declined the consent for tracking.
167 00:15:57.350 ⇒ 00:15:58.969 Luke Scorziell: And then in that case, then, does it still.
168 00:15:58.970 ⇒ 00:15:59.500 Zoran Selinger: org.
169 00:15:59.500 ⇒ 00:16:00.150 Luke Scorziell: Or…
170 00:16:00.150 ⇒ 00:16:12.929 Zoran Selinger: The reason why, no, no. Currently, it works for everyone, because we don’t have this built in yet. I added this, but we need to think about this.
171 00:16:14.690 ⇒ 00:16:32.059 Zoran Selinger: US is way less strict than European Union, okay? If we had European clients, I would push this pro… this issue much more, but we are still at the start of, kind of, developing this offering, and we need to talk to legal.
172 00:16:33.270 ⇒ 00:16:34.730 Zoran Selinger: We need to figure that out.
173 00:16:35.510 ⇒ 00:16:36.390 Luke Scorziell: Yeah, yeah.
174 00:16:36.580 ⇒ 00:16:39.009 Zoran Selinger: Yeah, my personal opinion is that
175 00:16:39.220 ⇒ 00:16:42.889 Zoran Selinger: We should listen to consent. We can’t do that.
176 00:16:43.600 ⇒ 00:16:45.919 Zoran Selinger: At the… at the level of request.
177 00:16:47.240 ⇒ 00:16:47.879 Zoran Selinger: Even though…
178 00:16:47.880 ⇒ 00:16:50.600 Luke Scorziell: It’s loading, it’s already loading the data.
179 00:16:50.600 ⇒ 00:17:04.479 Zoran Selinger: On the first visit, because interacting with the consent pop-ups, for example, will create a cookie on your browser. So we can, after that, after that cookie’s been created, do you know what cookie is?
180 00:17:05.230 ⇒ 00:17:07.590 Luke Scorziell: Just from, like, the very top level.
181 00:17:07.599 ⇒ 00:17:13.369 Zoran Selinger: It’s a little bit of data that sits in your browser that ends… that just the website might need.
182 00:17:13.879 ⇒ 00:17:29.609 Zoran Selinger: For the future. Like, you can think about, okay, you prefer that website to be blue instead of green, right? So it’s a… it can be a functionality thing, but it can be a tracking thing, and many of the cookies are actually a tracking thing.
183 00:17:30.209 ⇒ 00:17:36.859 Zoran Selinger: Basically, every consent pop-up that you see, they have associated cookies.
184 00:17:37.659 ⇒ 00:17:44.959 Zoran Selinger: And we can, in principle, read those cookies, And respect them.
185 00:17:44.960 ⇒ 00:17:45.400 Luke Scorziell: Excuse me.
186 00:17:45.400 ⇒ 00:17:51.770 Zoran Selinger: We… so that can be… and I’m sure there’s gonna be clients that are going to ask for that.
187 00:17:52.270 ⇒ 00:18:02.280 Zoran Selinger: But I don’t… I think this is a fully legal question. If you ask me about my personal opinion, I think we should respect consent, obviously.
188 00:18:03.340 ⇒ 00:18:07.080 Zoran Selinger: I think people do have right to opt out.
189 00:18:07.420 ⇒ 00:18:11.880 Zoran Selinger: And like I said, in Europe, we are very strict about this.
190 00:18:12.520 ⇒ 00:18:14.210 Luke Scorziell: Yeah, yeah, I mean, Europe kind of set the stage.
191 00:18:14.240 ⇒ 00:18:20.920 Zoran Selinger: way more labs in U.S, so I just, I simply don’t know what we are allowed to do or not.
192 00:18:21.210 ⇒ 00:18:22.010 Zoran Selinger: Yeah.
193 00:18:22.010 ⇒ 00:18:25.929 Luke Scorziell: Okay. I mean, I think that’s an important question, probably, to…
194 00:18:25.930 ⇒ 00:18:26.480 Zoran Selinger: Yep.
195 00:18:26.480 ⇒ 00:18:31.600 Luke Scorziell: Because it’s like, you know, before we start writing posts on… LinkedIn and advertising.
196 00:18:31.600 ⇒ 00:18:32.030 Zoran Selinger: I was like.
197 00:18:32.030 ⇒ 00:18:33.429 Luke Scorziell: All the stuff that’s, like, probably good to…
198 00:18:33.430 ⇒ 00:18:34.010 Zoran Selinger: Yep.
199 00:18:34.430 ⇒ 00:18:35.110 Luke Scorziell: to iron out.
200 00:18:35.110 ⇒ 00:18:37.529 Zoran Selinger: We should get a clear answer on, on…
201 00:18:38.630 ⇒ 00:18:47.820 Luke Scorziell: And so, when… maybe, like, shifting gears a little bit, when you’re thinking about… who…
202 00:18:48.190 ⇒ 00:18:51.889 Luke Scorziell: This would be marketed toward… like, who are you…
203 00:18:52.800 ⇒ 00:18:59.280 Luke Scorziell: Is it typically, like, a CMO, a head of marketing, the head of growth? Like, who are the stakeholders that are…
204 00:19:00.120 ⇒ 00:19:08.469 Zoran Selinger: You got it right there. That’s it. All of them. Anyone that would… anyone that would look into… into a report.
205 00:19:08.470 ⇒ 00:19:13.780 Luke Scorziell: I needed to make a serious decision on budget allocation or anything like that.
206 00:19:13.910 ⇒ 00:19:14.890 Luke Scorziell: God.
207 00:19:15.150 ⇒ 00:19:21.010 Zoran Selinger: they… That’s a little bit of noise. They,
208 00:19:22.300 ⇒ 00:19:33.290 Zoran Selinger: I know they think about this, you know, the confidence in the numbers. They think about confidence in the numbers. Are these real numbers, or are these not real numbers?
209 00:19:33.680 ⇒ 00:19:38.379 Zoran Selinger: If we have a 5% margin in error, okay, we cannot, we cannot
210 00:19:39.100 ⇒ 00:19:58.219 Zoran Selinger: make a big mistake in our judgment, in interpreting the data, or… but if we have… if we are 30% off, then you’re… you’re basically, you know, gambling a little bit with the… with the rest, like, 30%, that you don’t have visibility on. So…
211 00:19:58.500 ⇒ 00:20:06.079 Zoran Selinger: If you are confident that you’re looking at the right data, in the correct data, that is very close to the truth.
212 00:20:06.430 ⇒ 00:20:11.160 Zoran Selinger: And then… You are… you can…
213 00:20:11.370 ⇒ 00:20:14.919 Zoran Selinger: easily make a decision. It’s easier to scale.
214 00:20:15.820 ⇒ 00:20:26.909 Zoran Selinger: more confident in where you want to put your, put your budget, and especially if you’re looking to scale, that can be scary to make a decision, okay, in the next,
215 00:20:27.300 ⇒ 00:20:40.509 Zoran Selinger: Quarter, we are going to increase our spend by 100% in this channel, and you know that your data is 30% off. The decision… you’re basing the decision on the data that’s 30% off.
216 00:20:40.510 ⇒ 00:20:48.439 Zoran Selinger: Somewhere, and you don’t know how. Maybe it’s worse than you think, maybe it’s better than you think. You simply don’t know. It’s a gamble.
217 00:20:48.620 ⇒ 00:21:00.930 Zoran Selinger: We are kind of facing the same issue on some of the free tools out there for analytics. For example, in Google Analytics, you will have a report that is sampled.
218 00:21:01.340 ⇒ 00:21:09.770 Zoran Selinger: So what they do, they, they only take, like, 20% of your real data, and they model the rest 80%.
219 00:21:10.560 ⇒ 00:21:11.360 Luke Scorziell: Huh.
220 00:21:11.360 ⇒ 00:21:19.549 Zoran Selinger: model, they just make an approximation for the idea. You know, it might be close to the real world, but…
221 00:21:19.550 ⇒ 00:21:34.759 Zoran Selinger: it might not. So it’s just… you never, you never really know. Obviously, we are used to… we know that we are going to always be… we’re never going to be looking at the actual truth, but, the difference between 4% off and 30% off is…
222 00:21:35.790 ⇒ 00:21:36.440 Zoran Selinger: is…
223 00:21:36.440 ⇒ 00:21:40.609 Luke Scorziell: Yeah, yeah, and what are… I mean, so, I know kind of Robert’s intention, too, is
224 00:21:40.810 ⇒ 00:21:47.110 Luke Scorziell: For us to kind of map out the pitch a little bit, too, but, like, what are stories… then…
225 00:21:47.500 ⇒ 00:21:50.589 Luke Scorziell: You know, because I think stories are oftentimes for some…
226 00:21:50.870 ⇒ 00:21:56.580 Luke Scorziell: like, really convey. So, like, what are decisions that you’ve seen made that, you know, you would say, like.
227 00:21:56.760 ⇒ 00:22:00.339 Luke Scorziell: It would have been nice for them to have this kind of data or information.
228 00:22:01.220 ⇒ 00:22:04.560 Luke Scorziell: Or, you know, examples of what you’re describing?
229 00:22:05.180 ⇒ 00:22:13.459 Zoran Selinger: Yeah, so… So, in… in, let’s say, in campaigns, what we… so, right now, everything is algorithmic, okay?
230 00:22:13.590 ⇒ 00:22:16.989 Zoran Selinger: So, when we start running campaigns.
231 00:22:17.350 ⇒ 00:22:29.550 Zoran Selinger: we are feeding algorithms data, right? And they are optimizing. The campaigns get shown to people, and based on the data, we feed them.
232 00:22:30.740 ⇒ 00:22:36.649 Zoran Selinger: Obviously, if you fill the algorithms with garbage, the output is also going to be garbage.
233 00:22:37.100 ⇒ 00:22:37.680 Luke Scorziell: Yeah.
234 00:22:37.680 ⇒ 00:22:48.690 Zoran Selinger: it’s typical garbage in, garbage out in all the data, you know. So AI is the same. So the accuracy of the data impacts… impacts,
235 00:22:49.340 ⇒ 00:22:57.299 Zoran Selinger: what we get from the algorithms. And that’s just the reality of this world. We are… we have to play nice with algorithms.
236 00:22:58.000 ⇒ 00:23:04.300 Luke Scorziell: Everything in campaign management now is basically automated. They keep taking control away from us.
237 00:23:04.610 ⇒ 00:23:15.209 Zoran Selinger: For the last 10 years, you know, we used to be able to control in, for example, in Google Ads, every single search query. Now, they just…
238 00:23:15.350 ⇒ 00:23:17.020 Zoran Selinger: Last 10 years, they just…
239 00:23:17.130 ⇒ 00:23:28.439 Zoran Selinger: we just switched this to algorithm, you don’t have control anymore, and that just keeps happening with all the platforms, so this is a huge part. The second part is, obviously,
240 00:23:28.880 ⇒ 00:23:36.699 Zoran Selinger: You tend to, you tend to, maybe, push campaigns are not as good.
241 00:23:37.350 ⇒ 00:23:37.810 Luke Scorziell: Yeah.
242 00:23:37.810 ⇒ 00:23:40.939 Zoran Selinger: But in mo… when you… when you’re missing data.
243 00:23:41.160 ⇒ 00:23:48.339 Zoran Selinger: In most cases, the error you’re gonna make is you’re gonna stop campaigns that are actually good, because you lost trackability.
244 00:23:48.530 ⇒ 00:23:49.110 Zoran Selinger: You’re.
245 00:23:49.110 ⇒ 00:23:49.640 Luke Scorziell: Huh.
246 00:23:50.090 ⇒ 00:23:57.390 Zoran Selinger: 15% of conversions that should have been credited to a given campaign, and you have a winner there.
247 00:23:57.620 ⇒ 00:24:02.080 Zoran Selinger: And you… you stop the winner because you don’t know this is a winner.
248 00:24:02.480 ⇒ 00:24:06.180 Zoran Selinger: So we are… we are missing a lot.
249 00:24:06.380 ⇒ 00:24:13.639 Zoran Selinger: When that happens. We are, instead of scaling a specific campaign, we posit, imagine, imagine.
250 00:24:14.720 ⇒ 00:24:17.309 Zoran Selinger: Like, the opposites of those two things.
251 00:24:17.890 ⇒ 00:24:23.360 Zoran Selinger: And that happens because you have your data that’s 20% off, and that happens all the time now.
252 00:24:23.780 ⇒ 00:24:29.230 Luke Scorziell: Yeah, well, it’s interesting, because if you have a campaign that is, like, 20% below.
253 00:24:29.570 ⇒ 00:24:30.640 Luke Scorziell: Whatever.
254 00:24:30.750 ⇒ 00:24:39.600 Luke Scorziell: the margin of errors are 17% below, and then you’re like, you know, that’s a pretty… that might be a pretty bad campaign relative to your other ones, but then if you have it 17% higher.
255 00:24:39.750 ⇒ 00:24:46.580 Luke Scorziell: that’s probably a pretty great campaign performance in comparison to… I mean, depending on the other campaigns.
256 00:24:46.650 ⇒ 00:24:58.480 Zoran Selinger: Yeah, but to me, it’s just ridiculous that you get into a position where you should scale a campaign, but you arrive to exactly the opposite conclusion, because you have bad data.
257 00:24:58.980 ⇒ 00:25:10.939 Luke Scorziell: So it’s like, garbage in, garbage in, garbage out is kind of the one that, like, if you give the algorithm good data, you’ll get good in return. But then also, like, how do we make good decisions?
258 00:25:11.050 ⇒ 00:25:17.689 Luke Scorziell: When we don’t have data that’s actually accurate. And what do you… when you say that most of the time it leads to…
259 00:25:19.320 ⇒ 00:25:25.589 Luke Scorziell: those kind of campaigns, or good campaigns getting stopped, like, why is it that instead of the other way around?
260 00:25:25.590 ⇒ 00:25:31.309 Zoran Selinger: Oh, yeah, I mean, because when you, when you lose, when you lose data.
261 00:25:31.570 ⇒ 00:25:36.649 Zoran Selinger: You usually, lose the… The exact number of…
262 00:25:36.780 ⇒ 00:25:40.070 Zoran Selinger: conversions or transactions that a given campaign drove.
263 00:25:41.280 ⇒ 00:25:47.550 Zoran Selinger: see less than… less than actually happened, because they’re not trackable. So a person clicked it.
264 00:25:48.010 ⇒ 00:25:52.000 Zoran Selinger: And the tracking got blocked, and they did… that campaign did not get credit.
265 00:25:52.290 ⇒ 00:25:53.290 Zoran Selinger: That’s why.
266 00:25:53.680 ⇒ 00:25:54.829 Zoran Selinger: You’re mostly gonna be…
267 00:25:54.830 ⇒ 00:25:57.030 Luke Scorziell: It makes things look like they’re doing worse than they are.
268 00:25:57.030 ⇒ 00:26:02.290 Zoran Selinger: Yes, almost, almost every account will have those campaigns now.
269 00:26:02.760 ⇒ 00:26:05.989 Zoran Selinger: Because of this huge margin of error.
270 00:26:06.820 ⇒ 00:26:09.849 Zoran Selinger: You are posing winners all the time.
271 00:26:11.050 ⇒ 00:26:12.360 Luke Scorziell: Huh, huh.
272 00:26:12.360 ⇒ 00:26:16.230 Zoran Selinger: Yeah. And third, for example.
273 00:26:16.880 ⇒ 00:26:31.730 Zoran Selinger: you have a, like, any… any remarketing campaign, and we do have remarketing campaigns everywhere, okay? We… we advertise to people that already visited our site, that already purchased, that contacted us in any shape or form.
274 00:26:32.090 ⇒ 00:26:39.159 Zoran Selinger: When you have tracking prevention, You actually don’t know, so…
275 00:26:39.330 ⇒ 00:26:46.089 Zoran Selinger: People don’t get tracked properly, and you might see the same person as a new person.
276 00:26:47.200 ⇒ 00:26:48.380 Zoran Selinger: Multiple times.
277 00:26:48.710 ⇒ 00:26:54.530 Zoran Selinger: So imagine you being, you’re becoming a customer, And then…
278 00:26:54.700 ⇒ 00:26:57.980 Zoran Selinger: You start getting emails about becoming a customer.
279 00:26:58.800 ⇒ 00:27:05.939 Zoran Selinger: Because at some point in time, you cleared your cookies, you changed your identifiers.
280 00:27:06.500 ⇒ 00:27:10.459 Zoran Selinger: And we don’t know anymore that you are the same person.
281 00:27:12.790 ⇒ 00:27:17.029 Zoran Selinger: We start giving you messages that have nothing to do with you.
282 00:27:17.720 ⇒ 00:27:18.470 Zoran Selinger: Right?
283 00:27:18.470 ⇒ 00:27:19.330 Luke Scorziell: Huh.
284 00:27:19.480 ⇒ 00:27:26.619 Zoran Selinger: So that also happens all the time with tracking prevention. We simply… and you can think about, like, impression frequency.
285 00:27:27.810 ⇒ 00:27:37.789 Zoran Selinger: We have a rule, okay, let’s not show more than 10 impressions to the same person in a week, and you end up getting 50, because you’re cleaning cookies every day.
286 00:27:39.130 ⇒ 00:27:42.370 Zoran Selinger: And, like, doing those kinds of things.
287 00:27:42.720 ⇒ 00:27:47.520 Zoran Selinger: And we cannot… We cannot… We don’t know that.
288 00:27:47.810 ⇒ 00:27:51.520 Zoran Selinger: You’re the same person, and we end up showing you 50 instead of 10.
289 00:27:52.580 ⇒ 00:27:53.430 Luke Scorziell: Yeah, huh.
290 00:27:53.430 ⇒ 00:28:03.770 Zoran Selinger: Yeah. So those kinds of things also happen a lot. So there’s… when, like, the aggregate effect of all those three things.
291 00:28:04.340 ⇒ 00:28:08.400 Zoran Selinger: Is probably, probably very, very significant.
292 00:28:08.880 ⇒ 00:28:14.350 Zoran Selinger: Yeah. But we only started working on this, so we don’t have exact numbers yet.
293 00:28:14.590 ⇒ 00:28:15.450 Luke Scorziell: Huh.
294 00:28:15.450 ⇒ 00:28:17.810 Zoran Selinger: Yeah, so I couldn’t give you,
295 00:28:18.120 ⇒ 00:28:25.180 Zoran Selinger: Like, the data we have, the information we have, data point that we have, is 17%.
296 00:28:25.520 ⇒ 00:28:29.320 Zoran Selinger: That’s what we have at the moment. That’s what we can claim, yeah.
297 00:28:30.000 ⇒ 00:28:33.740 Luke Scorziell: Sweet. Well, I have another meeting at 9, but I’m curious, too, to…
298 00:28:33.740 ⇒ 00:28:37.249 Zoran Selinger: you know, learn more, but do you feel like this is pretty helpful?
299 00:28:37.630 ⇒ 00:28:42.819 Luke Scorziell: Or, like, where do you feel like you’re at with pitching the client later this week? Like, do you feel pretty confident? Do you…
300 00:28:42.820 ⇒ 00:28:46.620 Zoran Selinger: I mean, technical part is very clear to me.
301 00:28:46.820 ⇒ 00:28:47.380 Luke Scorziell: Yeah.
302 00:28:48.340 ⇒ 00:28:51.669 Zoran Selinger: We should frame this, like, this,
303 00:28:52.190 ⇒ 00:28:55.940 Zoran Selinger: prevention and privacy thing. We should…
304 00:28:56.260 ⇒ 00:29:10.059 Zoran Selinger: figure that out before, before the meeting. Also, the deck, I… I have nothing, I have a few, few bits and pieces that, I was just kind of… when I was looking at what’s happening, and this 70%, I have a few pieces there.
305 00:29:10.350 ⇒ 00:29:11.020 Luke Scorziell: Yeah.
306 00:29:11.230 ⇒ 00:29:15.760 Zoran Selinger: So, who’s doing the deck? How does that work? I don’t know.
307 00:29:15.760 ⇒ 00:29:16.300 Luke Scorziell: Yeah, yeah.
308 00:29:16.300 ⇒ 00:29:34.050 Zoran Selinger: Do we have all… do we have something already that we started, and then we’re going to collaborate on the slides? And who’s going to lead the meeting? Who’s presenting? Am I the guy to talk about tech stuff, and someone else does the intro? And, like, we need to figure that out.
309 00:29:34.050 ⇒ 00:29:46.319 Luke Scorziell: Yeah, yeah, okay. Okay, well, let’s set up another meeting then, if that’s okay with you. And then, yeah, we can flush this out, so… Okay, well, let me hop off, and then I’ll send you an invite. And when is the meeting? It’s on Thursday?
310 00:29:46.980 ⇒ 00:29:49.919 Zoran Selinger: I don’t know, if we… if we do have a…
311 00:29:50.680 ⇒ 00:29:52.309 Luke Scorziell: Oh, is it not sat yet? Yeah. Okay.
312 00:29:52.310 ⇒ 00:29:59.360 Zoran Selinger: Yesterday’s message just said I’m trying to schedule for this week. I don’t know if you have an update, I just came online today.
313 00:29:59.360 ⇒ 00:30:00.329 Luke Scorziell: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
314 00:30:00.330 ⇒ 00:30:01.299 Zoran Selinger: There’s an update on that.
315 00:30:01.300 ⇒ 00:30:04.250 Luke Scorziell: Well, I’ll… I’m literally about to go meet with Robert, so I’ll.
316 00:30:04.250 ⇒ 00:30:04.590 Zoran Selinger: Okay.
317 00:30:04.840 ⇒ 00:30:07.409 Luke Scorziell: But, okay, alright, thanks, Warren.
318 00:30:07.410 ⇒ 00:30:08.490 Zoran Selinger: Yeah, thank you, bye.