Meeting Title: Brainforce x Magic Spoon Project Planning Date: 2026-02-03 Meeting participants: Uttam Kumaran, Robert Tseng, Amber Lin
WEBVTT
1 00:00:18.630 ⇒ 00:00:23.460 Uttam Kumaran: Hey… Magic Spoon is, like, teetering.
2 00:00:24.060 ⇒ 00:00:24.460 Robert Tseng: Okay.
3 00:00:24.460 ⇒ 00:00:29.590 Uttam Kumaran: They’re moving… they’re moving way too fucking slow, these people. Like, our team.
4 00:00:30.630 ⇒ 00:00:35.969 Uttam Kumaran: they’re joshing me on how long things take, and it’s really, like, I’m trying to lose patience.
5 00:00:38.950 ⇒ 00:00:45.560 Uttam Kumaran: So, I don’t know. Like, we’ll have… I think when we… when we go to hire, I’m certainly gonna look
6 00:00:45.710 ⇒ 00:00:50.949 Uttam Kumaran: At this next round of hiring is, like, a big… like, level up moment. Yeah.
7 00:00:51.210 ⇒ 00:00:53.719 Uttam Kumaran: Especially for some of the people that are…
8 00:00:54.190 ⇒ 00:00:59.499 Uttam Kumaran: Clearly good at their job, but, like, either lazy or bad at communicating, or both.
9 00:01:00.850 ⇒ 00:01:03.189 Robert Tseng: Yeah. We need to remove those people.
10 00:01:03.260 ⇒ 00:01:11.419 Uttam Kumaran: Because some people are telling me things are taking… A certain amount of time.
11 00:01:11.640 ⇒ 00:01:18.540 Uttam Kumaran: The problem with me, though, is, like, I either, in that moment, can say, You’re joshing me?
12 00:01:18.830 ⇒ 00:01:23.030 Uttam Kumaran: how is this gonna take that long? Like… Are you, like.
13 00:01:23.430 ⇒ 00:01:29.599 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, maybe when I was, like, first day on the job, like, you’re… you’re 10 years into your career, or…
14 00:01:29.720 ⇒ 00:01:31.650 Uttam Kumaran: I have to just do it myself.
15 00:01:31.850 ⇒ 00:01:39.940 Uttam Kumaran: And… I’m like… Trying not to do option 2.
16 00:01:40.230 ⇒ 00:01:46.799 Uttam Kumaran: But I also am getting really good at cursor, so maybe I should just do option 2 and…
17 00:01:48.320 ⇒ 00:01:52.909 Uttam Kumaran: continue to pull things off people’s plate as they mess up, like, I don’t know, because…
18 00:01:53.150 ⇒ 00:01:59.159 Uttam Kumaran: Some of this stuff that people are… like, some of the stuff that some people are doing on the modeling side should not be taking this long.
19 00:02:01.830 ⇒ 00:02:06.499 Uttam Kumaran: And… I don’t know, just like…
20 00:02:07.540 ⇒ 00:02:09.750 Uttam Kumaran: It’s tough, like, I’m not sure.
21 00:02:10.130 ⇒ 00:02:17.840 Robert Tseng: I mean, I feel bad across all the things that we touch. I’m actually super… I’m very excited. I’ve been working on something
22 00:02:18.160 ⇒ 00:02:25.209 Robert Tseng: basically, I felt like the go-to-market team was pushing the service campaigns out too slowly. I built something that’s, like.
23 00:02:25.860 ⇒ 00:02:29.150 Robert Tseng: way better. Like, it’s… it,
24 00:02:29.360 ⇒ 00:02:48.920 Robert Tseng: I mean, I think I want to hold Luke to, like, launching two… like, basically creating two campaign briefs a week with this thing, with, like, at least five posts lined up for each one. Like, this should get us… I mean, it took him, like, a month to do… to do two of these, like, this should now take, like, a day, so, like, I’m… I’m very excited to…
25 00:02:49.060 ⇒ 00:02:50.140 Robert Tseng: Record.
26 00:02:50.880 ⇒ 00:02:59.409 Robert Tseng: like, zoom… zoom clip, what I’ve… what I’ve been working on here, and I’m gonna basically put… push… push them, push them to launch stuff faster as well.
27 00:03:00.500 ⇒ 00:03:07.599 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I mean… Yeah, it’s just… it’s just tough, like, some people are not really, like…
28 00:03:08.110 ⇒ 00:03:10.770 Uttam Kumaran: Spending time to leverage cursor.
29 00:03:11.480 ⇒ 00:03:16.409 Uttam Kumaran: like… like I’m asking them to, and I’ve said it so many times, and I don’t know what to do. I’ve asked…
30 00:03:16.980 ⇒ 00:03:24.699 Uttam Kumaran: I asked, like, I mean, part of this is, like, I just have to maybe just go force it on people a little bit more, but just thinking through it a bit more, but…
31 00:03:24.700 ⇒ 00:03:25.250 Robert Tseng: Yeah.
32 00:03:27.900 ⇒ 00:03:31.610 Uttam Kumaran: I mean, what do you… like, I think first, maybe one thing, what do you think about, like.
33 00:03:32.170 ⇒ 00:03:34.269 Uttam Kumaran: For people that we hire, like.
34 00:03:34.410 ⇒ 00:03:41.810 Uttam Kumaran: Should we hire people that haven’t used Cursor, or, like, an agentic development thing before?
35 00:03:42.970 ⇒ 00:03:48.569 Robert Tseng: how do we filter? Everybody said they were using ChatGPT and, like, using stuff. I mean, unless we say they literally have.
36 00:03:48.570 ⇒ 00:03:52.300 Uttam Kumaran: Well, I’ll ask them, I’ll ask them if they had, and then I’ll ask them, tell me how you’re using it.
37 00:03:52.440 ⇒ 00:03:53.050 Robert Tseng: Yeah.
38 00:03:56.650 ⇒ 00:03:59.850 Uttam Kumaran: It’s all… it’s almost a good filter for, like.
39 00:04:00.340 ⇒ 00:04:05.589 Uttam Kumaran: are you plugged in right now? And, like, do you care about, like, continuing to work faster? Because…
40 00:04:06.190 ⇒ 00:04:11.549 Uttam Kumaran: This has been out, like, if you’re an engineer, this has been out for a while. I almost may just… maybe we use that.
41 00:04:11.550 ⇒ 00:04:13.869 Robert Tseng: They’re engineers, for sure. Yeah, yeah.
42 00:04:14.300 ⇒ 00:04:17.010 Robert Tseng: For the non-engineering roles, I feel like that’s… that’s tough.
43 00:04:17.010 ⇒ 00:04:19.700 Uttam Kumaran: For non-engineering, that’s fine, yeah.
44 00:04:20.019 ⇒ 00:04:22.189 Robert Tseng: Yeah. But yeah, for engineering, I agree.
45 00:04:25.850 ⇒ 00:04:30.139 Robert Tseng: Okay, alright. Alright, let’s talk about this stuff. Okay, that’s on vacation, yeah.
46 00:04:30.140 ⇒ 00:04:34.610 Uttam Kumaran: So, tell me what you thought, think so far, and then,
47 00:04:34.720 ⇒ 00:04:36.439 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, maybe we can go from there.
48 00:04:36.930 ⇒ 00:04:43.269 Robert Tseng: Well, I met with Amber earlier, saw kind of what she was working on. I pulled all the stuff from your PR.
49 00:04:43.730 ⇒ 00:04:45.830 Robert Tseng: like, yeah, I mean, I guess…
50 00:04:46.170 ⇒ 00:05:00.799 Robert Tseng: I… I mean, I just… I just kind of went… I went through everything there, so I’ve seen all the… well, I’ve kind of asked Cursor to kind of give me, like, a deal on all the… all the decks and the outline that you have, so, I mean, I guess, like, where do you want… where do you want to start?
51 00:05:00.970 ⇒ 00:05:06.900 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I mean, I would like to just think about what we’re going to pitch as
52 00:05:07.940 ⇒ 00:05:15.280 Uttam Kumaran: Retainer-based, and what are we gonna pitch as outcome-based, and what are we gonna do now, next, Future.
53 00:05:15.680 ⇒ 00:05:18.489 Robert Tseng: Yeah. And if we can collaborate on that final.
54 00:05:18.610 ⇒ 00:05:19.670 Uttam Kumaran: slide.
55 00:05:20.460 ⇒ 00:05:22.659 Uttam Kumaran: That’s really what I need.
56 00:05:23.270 ⇒ 00:05:25.969 Uttam Kumaran: Help on, and then, like, kind of, like, we can…
57 00:05:26.230 ⇒ 00:05:31.149 Uttam Kumaran: We can… maybe coach me a little bit on, like, how we should… how we should pitch it in the meeting.
58 00:05:31.600 ⇒ 00:05:40.389 Uttam Kumaran: Okay. That’s, like, really… that’s, like, really… so… so think about, like, I will… I’m gonna be kicking… like, I think the outline it had in there is right. I’m going to be…
59 00:05:40.490 ⇒ 00:05:42.409 Uttam Kumaran: Going through, like, the best of.
60 00:05:42.740 ⇒ 00:05:45.310 Uttam Kumaran: I’m going to land on this pitch.
61 00:05:45.690 ⇒ 00:05:48.690 Uttam Kumaran: Of, like, here is the outlay of what we need to do.
62 00:05:49.530 ⇒ 00:05:55.260 Uttam Kumaran: I think two things that we haven’t done yet is to try to show the potential ROI.
63 00:05:56.140 ⇒ 00:06:00.759 Uttam Kumaran: And then I wanna… once we show that, and hopefully that’s a big number, we can then go into, like.
64 00:06:01.360 ⇒ 00:06:05.049 Uttam Kumaran: Here’s our proposal for, like, What we want to do.
65 00:06:05.550 ⇒ 00:06:06.130 Robert Tseng: Yeah.
66 00:06:06.400 ⇒ 00:06:09.970 Uttam Kumaran: That’s kind of, like, what I’m thinking, so… Yeah.
67 00:06:12.740 ⇒ 00:06:17.620 Robert Tseng: Okay, I’m just, like, taking your file and I’m pasting it into Google Talk, because I feel like it’s easier to read.
68 00:06:22.900 ⇒ 00:06:26.110 Robert Tseng: But this pretty much is the culmination of everything, right?
69 00:06:26.760 ⇒ 00:06:27.640 Uttam Kumaran: Yes.
70 00:06:27.640 ⇒ 00:06:28.250 Robert Tseng: Okay.
71 00:06:49.130 ⇒ 00:06:51.700 Robert Tseng: Yeah, I mean, I think… I do think the push on…
72 00:06:51.900 ⇒ 00:06:59.769 Robert Tseng: The, like, just lead… lead gen and paid… kind of, like, just getting…
73 00:07:00.640 ⇒ 00:07:06.649 Robert Tseng: marketing… digital marketing foundations kind of setup is… is the way to go. I was… I was looking at…
74 00:07:07.220 ⇒ 00:07:18.540 Robert Tseng: kind of Amber’s analysis earlier, so rather than, like, saying we’re gonna touch pricing or help them launch new service lines, like, I think this is… this is the… that’s what we should be… that’s what we should be doing.
75 00:07:25.180 ⇒ 00:07:34.130 Robert Tseng: Yeah, I… As far as, like, what should be outcome-based versus… What should be project-based?
76 00:07:39.000 ⇒ 00:07:44.610 Robert Tseng: I think… Hmm…
77 00:07:47.240 ⇒ 00:07:52.069 Robert Tseng: So it’s a little bit too hefty to kind of look at it really quick. Let me run a couple.
78 00:07:52.070 ⇒ 00:07:56.059 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, you can scroll down, there’s something that’s, like, now, next, future.
79 00:07:56.060 ⇒ 00:07:57.069 Robert Tseng: Yeah, yeah,
80 00:07:57.070 ⇒ 00:08:00.460 Uttam Kumaran: I tried to create several views of, like, the same thing, just so we.
81 00:08:00.460 ⇒ 00:08:00.990 Robert Tseng: Yeah.
82 00:08:01.620 ⇒ 00:08:04.749 Uttam Kumaran: And then there’s an ROI thing with… this is all AI, so…
83 00:08:38.100 ⇒ 00:08:39.990 Uttam Kumaran: So, we don’t need to do…
84 00:08:40.490 ⇒ 00:08:41.859 Robert Tseng: We don’t need this.
85 00:08:42.030 ⇒ 00:08:43.140 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
86 00:08:45.120 ⇒ 00:08:47.030 Uttam Kumaran: Well, yeah, yeah.
87 00:08:50.910 ⇒ 00:08:52.979 Uttam Kumaran: We also don’t need to do number 7.
88 00:08:54.940 ⇒ 00:08:55.510 Robert Tseng: Hey.
89 00:09:02.230 ⇒ 00:09:12.190 Uttam Kumaran: And then for 5, this is gonna be, like, CMO knowledge transfer, meaning they’re about to hire another CMO, so maybe we pair with them to basically ramp that person up.
90 00:09:12.800 ⇒ 00:09:13.390 Robert Tseng: Yeah.
91 00:09:15.930 ⇒ 00:09:23.479 Robert Tseng: So, to me, like, yeah, the quick wins we talked about last time being kind of just foundational things that we need to set up. We need to set up attribution tracking.
92 00:09:23.690 ⇒ 00:09:42.180 Robert Tseng: The email pilot, like, is also kind of just, like, a setup thing as well that we need to do. And then, like, making sure that there is just, like, some B2B conversion path. So, to me, this is… this all makes sense to just be, like, fixed project-based. Like, this is just, like, a foundation setup sprint, right?
93 00:09:42.660 ⇒ 00:09:44.569 Uttam Kumaran: And this is only 30 days, you know?
94 00:09:44.940 ⇒ 00:09:51.760 Uttam Kumaran: So the… really, the core menu is this 30 days, and then the 30 and the 90 is where you’re gonna see the SEO.
95 00:09:52.040 ⇒ 00:10:01.650 Robert Tseng: Yeah, so that’s where I feel like this is where we can start to do some of that, like, outcome-based pricing. I’m saying, like, here we should just… we should just build this as, like, one
96 00:10:02.290 ⇒ 00:10:05.149 Robert Tseng: Okay. One, one, one project. I like…
97 00:10:05.240 ⇒ 00:10:23.540 Robert Tseng: when… I like Clarence’s model of, like, how he prices a single number with multiple work streams. So, I think, I mean, we could… we can just reference kind of that EY slide that he… he, shared before as a way to break that down into some… some sort of, like, single number.
98 00:10:23.750 ⇒ 00:10:25.800 Uttam Kumaran: Can you give me edit access real quick?
99 00:10:26.100 ⇒ 00:10:27.089 Robert Tseng: Oh yeah, of course.
100 00:10:29.360 ⇒ 00:10:31.840 Uttam Kumaran: I’ll just start commenting while you’re talking.
101 00:10:33.170 ⇒ 00:10:33.790 Robert Tseng: Yeah.
102 00:10:40.110 ⇒ 00:10:45.450 Robert Tseng: And then, from the 30 to 90 days, this is basically, like, we want another…
103 00:10:46.750 ⇒ 00:10:59.020 Robert Tseng: I mean, we want to sign a minimum, like, 3-month contract, so… like, I think there should be a piece that’s just, like, basic retainer, we’ll continue, we’ll do the day art warehouse implementation.
104 00:10:59.450 ⇒ 00:11:15.099 Robert Tseng: And the dashboarding worked, I think that should just be the fixed pricing. But then, any of, like, the stuff that, Hunter’s team would be touching, like, that’s… that should all be, kind of, performance… performance-based pricing.
105 00:11:20.540 ⇒ 00:11:26.180 Robert Tseng: and even, like, our AI pilot thing is… maybe we kind of frame it as, like, a…
106 00:11:29.370 ⇒ 00:11:39.230 Robert Tseng: well, I mean, this is a pilot, so, like, we could… we could set it up, but maybe… maybe we’re not really, like, asking them to use it at scale until later on. So,
107 00:11:40.040 ⇒ 00:11:42.869 Robert Tseng: It’s like, the retainer gets you this work.
108 00:11:44.910 ⇒ 00:11:52.469 Robert Tseng: And we’ll also kind of start scoping these things, or, like, we’ll build the pilot for the stuff.
109 00:11:52.650 ⇒ 00:12:00.240 Robert Tseng: And then, like, you know, one month in is right when we feel like we can actually hit
110 00:12:00.390 ⇒ 00:12:09.099 Robert Tseng: kind of marketing KPIs, and like, this is what, like, in order, you know, this is more traditional marketing agency pricing, where it’s performance-based.
111 00:12:13.030 ⇒ 00:12:13.630 Uttam Kumaran: Okay.
112 00:12:15.070 ⇒ 00:12:16.389 Uttam Kumaran: So let’s,
113 00:12:29.360 ⇒ 00:12:32.000 Uttam Kumaran: So this… this’ll be, like, Qatar.
114 00:12:32.400 ⇒ 00:12:40.940 Uttam Kumaran: And, like… They… he sent a deck on some of the stuff that he is gonna do,
115 00:12:46.250 ⇒ 00:12:49.050 Uttam Kumaran: on, like, SEO and GEO strategy.
116 00:12:49.200 ⇒ 00:12:50.290 Uttam Kumaran: Which is great.
117 00:12:53.240 ⇒ 00:12:59.290 Uttam Kumaran: like, should I ask him how to price it? Do you wanna… do you wanna think about a different, like.
118 00:12:59.390 ⇒ 00:13:01.419 Uttam Kumaran: How do we think we should do this?
119 00:13:02.820 ⇒ 00:13:08.370 Robert Tseng: I mean, I kind of want to put… ask him to put together the pricing, but I’m actually gonna ask…
120 00:13:09.090 ⇒ 00:13:12.720 Robert Tseng: Around for how to… how to price this part as well.
121 00:13:13.140 ⇒ 00:13:21.630 Robert Tseng: I’m always… I was thinking I would just ask Josh or Megan, be like, how… how are your… how are your marketing agencies charging you? And then I wanna…
122 00:13:21.730 ⇒ 00:13:24.929 Robert Tseng: Gotta just hear some more examples from him.
123 00:13:27.410 ⇒ 00:13:29.640 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I’m trying to think if I know anyone else, too.
124 00:13:36.710 ⇒ 00:13:46.270 Uttam Kumaran: Do you… like, as a way to arrive at something before tomorrow, should I ask Cutter, and then, like, do you want to just put a premium on his stuff?
125 00:13:46.410 ⇒ 00:13:53.790 Robert Tseng: Yeah, yeah, and I… and I will get… I’ll get the answer. I will… we’ll actually… we’ll, we’ll actually put the pricing slide together. Yeah.
126 00:13:54.180 ⇒ 00:13:54.850 Uttam Kumaran: Okay.
127 00:13:55.390 ⇒ 00:13:57.280 Uttam Kumaran: then, yeah, I feel like…
128 00:13:57.750 ⇒ 00:14:10.199 Robert Tseng: So, I mean, maybe you kind of… you put together the fixed price… Okay. …on, like, how you want the first 30 days to go, and then the… and then the retainer, for the… yeah, there’s a 3-month retainer.
129 00:14:11.620 ⇒ 00:14:12.290 Uttam Kumaran: Okay.
130 00:14:55.500 ⇒ 00:14:58.009 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I think 3 months, and then…
131 00:14:58.120 ⇒ 00:15:04.479 Uttam Kumaran: I mean, frankly, like, they can start doing ads, like, after 90 days pretty easily.
132 00:15:04.720 ⇒ 00:15:05.280 Robert Tseng: Yeah.
133 00:15:21.580 ⇒ 00:15:22.490 Uttam Kumaran: Okay.
134 00:15:24.170 ⇒ 00:15:31.709 Robert Tseng: So, this is the thing I’m referencing from Clarence. I’m just gonna chuck it in there, so let me give a quick reference.
135 00:15:35.630 ⇒ 00:15:36.780 Uttam Kumaran: Hmm, okay.
136 00:15:38.010 ⇒ 00:15:39.340 Robert Tseng: So…
137 00:15:42.520 ⇒ 00:15:50.459 Robert Tseng: I mean, what I’m seeing here, I mean, yeah, there’s gonna be just, like, a… Or he, he breaks…
138 00:16:06.160 ⇒ 00:16:11.879 Robert Tseng: Yeah, I got… well, so I’ll just break it down for him. So what I… how I read this slide when he sent it to me was, like.
139 00:16:11.980 ⇒ 00:16:28.460 Robert Tseng: So EY Labor is just, like, this is their over… this is their over… their offshore labor, and then studio is, like, their US-based labor. Other costs is just, like, I don’t know, just random, like, tooling costs or something. And yeah, like, I guess that gets… get… got them their all… their…
140 00:16:28.670 ⇒ 00:16:41.469 Robert Tseng: they’re… they’re all in number. Obviously, this is, like, a 6-month contract, or, like, a 6-month contract with what they’re pitching to… they’re pitching, like, another gear on top of that, so we can’t necessarily…
141 00:16:41.600 ⇒ 00:16:44.270 Robert Tseng: It’s like, rip this exactly, but I think…
142 00:16:44.550 ⇒ 00:16:49.349 Robert Tseng: It’s like, okay, all these initiatives, we have an estimate for labor.
143 00:16:49.790 ⇒ 00:16:53.300 Robert Tseng: And then an estimate for, like, tooling.
144 00:16:55.010 ⇒ 00:17:01.629 Robert Tseng: Costs for them, and that gets into, like, an all-in blended… blended rate.
145 00:17:06.869 ⇒ 00:17:12.169 Robert Tseng: So I, I don’t know, I wonder if we could put… build our slides similar to this, but, like, obviously we have to change it.
146 00:17:31.910 ⇒ 00:17:42.209 Robert Tseng: And then in the proposal section, we’ll have each of these initiatives. We can label it by, like, the first 30 days versus, like, the next 30 to 90 days, or whatever. And then…
147 00:17:42.950 ⇒ 00:17:45.939 Robert Tseng: Then we just throw off a table like that for them.
148 00:17:54.130 ⇒ 00:18:00.989 Robert Tseng: And then the second slide can be, like, the performance-based, marketing thing, kind of focused on, like.
149 00:18:01.280 ⇒ 00:18:15.329 Robert Tseng: like, basically, those marketing initiatives need to be written like, I guess, OKRs, because, like, there… there are specific, you know, KPI targets that we want to… to hit with them, and I think it just has to be…
150 00:18:15.430 ⇒ 00:18:17.030 Robert Tseng: Shown differently than…
151 00:18:20.040 ⇒ 00:18:21.140 Robert Tseng: this view.
152 00:18:22.070 ⇒ 00:18:22.700 Uttam Kumaran: Okay.
153 00:18:24.060 ⇒ 00:18:27.910 Robert Tseng: Yeah, so maybe two slides, and that should… that could get us there.
154 00:18:31.530 ⇒ 00:18:32.250 Robert Tseng: Shit.
155 00:18:37.890 ⇒ 00:18:45.770 Robert Tseng: the ROI analysis stuff is all, like, nice to have on hand in the appendix, but I don’t think we need to put it on the slide as well. But if it’s just, like.
156 00:18:46.200 ⇒ 00:18:52.270 Robert Tseng: oh, what do we actually think is gonna be the ROI on something that we can kind of… Going.
157 00:18:52.270 ⇒ 00:18:54.710 Uttam Kumaran: Really? Like, I feel like this…
158 00:18:55.350 ⇒ 00:19:01.560 Uttam Kumaran: We have to put this, because then it puts all of our costs In frame, because…
159 00:19:01.830 ⇒ 00:19:03.739 Uttam Kumaran: I don’t think they…
160 00:19:06.250 ⇒ 00:19:14.659 Uttam Kumaran: I don’t think they’re in the habit of hiring performance or tech agencies like us. So, I am almost trying to…
161 00:19:15.240 ⇒ 00:19:17.969 Uttam Kumaran: Objection handle, like, up front a little bit.
162 00:19:19.960 ⇒ 00:19:26.030 Uttam Kumaran: like, I want our numbers to kind of pale in comparison of, like, what it is they’re achieving. This was my thought.
163 00:19:29.700 ⇒ 00:19:40.689 Robert Tseng: Yeah, but, like, how would you show it for, like, the first 30 days? I mean, for the cutter stuff, I think that anything that’s performance-based, then, like, yeah, I think that would make sense, but…
164 00:19:40.960 ⇒ 00:19:43.339 Robert Tseng: Otherwise, like, I don’t know how it would…
165 00:19:44.450 ⇒ 00:19:50.420 Uttam Kumaran: No, no, no, it is the, well… It is the,
166 00:19:51.430 ⇒ 00:19:53.919 Uttam Kumaran: cutter stuff that I’m actually more concerned with.
167 00:19:54.150 ⇒ 00:19:57.579 Uttam Kumaran: The other stuff we’re just gonna do at our typical cost.
168 00:19:57.820 ⇒ 00:19:58.340 Robert Tseng: Yes.
169 00:19:58.340 ⇒ 00:20:05.099 Uttam Kumaran: it is the cutter and other sort of performance stuff that I am interested in putting the ROI on.
170 00:20:05.100 ⇒ 00:20:07.800 Robert Tseng: Yeah, okay, then I agree, that’s… that needs to be honest.
171 00:20:07.800 ⇒ 00:20:08.160 Uttam Kumaran: I was like.
172 00:20:08.160 ⇒ 00:20:08.570 Robert Tseng: Yeah.
173 00:20:08.570 ⇒ 00:20:19.529 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, that’s actually what I want to show. Like, I want to show, like, look, you guys are losing this amount of money because you don’t have right tracking. If we’re fixed tracking, potentially opens up this amount.
174 00:20:19.780 ⇒ 00:20:25.670 Uttam Kumaran: Because one thing I showed… one thing I told them is, like, we want to go after the low-effort, high ROI stuff.
175 00:20:25.790 ⇒ 00:20:26.700 Uttam Kumaran: First.
176 00:20:26.950 ⇒ 00:20:29.270 Uttam Kumaran: And I… I do wanna almost, like.
177 00:20:29.890 ⇒ 00:20:49.429 Uttam Kumaran: inundate them with how many things we can do, and then say, like, we’re focused on these high ROI items, and that’s what we’re pricing towards, and all the… and when we… when we put together our performance-based pricing, what I told Cutter, and what I think we should do, is we should just have 3 options. Like.
178 00:20:49.620 ⇒ 00:20:52.840 Uttam Kumaran: Normal, fast, Fastest.
179 00:20:53.020 ⇒ 00:20:59.289 Uttam Kumaran: And so, depending on the timeline on which they want us to do this, maybe that’s what indicates the cost.
180 00:21:06.810 ⇒ 00:21:08.939 Uttam Kumaran: Or, I mean, cause, yeah.
181 00:21:10.590 ⇒ 00:21:18.630 Robert Tseng: I don’t think we need to give them 3 different speeds. Maybe we do, like… I mean, if they want to do it faster, then we just… it’s just, like, a premium on top of that.
182 00:21:20.060 ⇒ 00:21:20.720 Uttam Kumaran: Okay.
183 00:21:24.330 ⇒ 00:21:28.550 Robert Tseng: Yeah, like, let’s say we priced it out for… let’s say we did, like, a.
184 00:21:29.000 ⇒ 00:21:32.710 Uttam Kumaran: something was scoped at 3 months. If they want it done in…
185 00:21:32.980 ⇒ 00:21:37.910 Robert Tseng: In one month, then, like, we would just… we would just put a multiple on top of that.
186 00:21:42.650 ⇒ 00:21:43.280 Uttam Kumaran: Okay.
187 00:21:44.190 ⇒ 00:21:47.120 Robert Tseng: It’d be, like, a 1.6 multiple, or whatever, like…
188 00:21:52.810 ⇒ 00:21:59.159 Uttam Kumaran: I don’t expect, like, I don’t expect them to be like, we want it done faster. I think they’re gonna take what we give them.
189 00:21:59.160 ⇒ 00:21:59.750 Robert Tseng: Yeah.
190 00:21:59.950 ⇒ 00:22:01.780 Uttam Kumaran: So I just want to make sure that…
191 00:22:06.450 ⇒ 00:22:20.309 Robert Tseng: Okay, I mean, like, last time I said I would draft the slides once we had the deck up. I guess we didn’t end up making the template, which is fine. I can… if you want, I can still put together the one-two slide, off of what we have here, and then we just have to fill in, like.
192 00:22:20.590 ⇒ 00:22:22.159 Robert Tseng: the… the details.
193 00:22:22.820 ⇒ 00:22:23.849 Uttam Kumaran: That would be great.
194 00:22:23.990 ⇒ 00:22:31.060 Robert Tseng: Okay. Then, yeah, I mean, if you have a DEX… if you don’t have a deck start, I’m just gonna use one of our… I’m just gonna use our Brainforce template.
195 00:22:33.120 ⇒ 00:22:35.749 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, let’s just start one while we’re on the call.
196 00:22:36.520 ⇒ 00:22:42.959 Robert Tseng: So, yeah, I’m gonna make one that looks like this, and then I’ll make another one that’s for the performance side, and we’ll do the ROI.
197 00:22:43.200 ⇒ 00:22:44.950 Robert Tseng: We’ll have the ROI up front as well.
198 00:22:59.930 ⇒ 00:23:03.319 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, let’s do, let’s use, this deck.
199 00:23:03.690 ⇒ 00:23:05.400 Uttam Kumaran: I’ll send it in Zoom.
200 00:23:05.970 ⇒ 00:23:07.210 Robert Tseng: Okay.
201 00:23:07.210 ⇒ 00:23:10.760 Uttam Kumaran: And then let’s just append to the top of it, because this is our, like, update deck.
202 00:23:11.220 ⇒ 00:23:11.770 Robert Tseng: Yeah.
203 00:23:22.060 ⇒ 00:23:25.120 Uttam Kumaran: So at the bottom, you’ll see kind of how we did pricing last time.
204 00:23:25.510 ⇒ 00:23:26.060 Robert Tseng: Yeah.
205 00:23:34.310 ⇒ 00:23:36.120 Robert Tseng: Okay, just give me a few.
206 00:23:36.340 ⇒ 00:23:37.789 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, you can go.
207 00:23:39.360 ⇒ 00:23:44.789 Robert Tseng: I mean, I have… I have a few calls, but I will finish this afterwards.
208 00:23:49.730 ⇒ 00:23:50.510 Robert Tseng: Yeah.
209 00:23:50.670 ⇒ 00:23:51.729 Robert Tseng: Okay, well, I mean.
210 00:23:51.730 ⇒ 00:23:54.769 Uttam Kumaran: So you’re gonna, you’re gonna think about doing it as, like, a percent of, like.
211 00:23:57.260 ⇒ 00:24:02.569 Uttam Kumaran: like, if we take the SEO stuff, you’re gonna tie it to revenue, or we’re gonna tie it to, like.
212 00:24:02.950 ⇒ 00:24:09.760 Uttam Kumaran: X amount of money per… session, or… or… yeah.
213 00:24:11.640 ⇒ 00:24:15.009 Robert Tseng: Yeah, we should do revenue for SEO. I mean, if it was, like…
214 00:24:17.480 ⇒ 00:24:18.389 Uttam Kumaran: Okay. Yeah. Yeah.
215 00:24:18.840 ⇒ 00:24:19.520 Robert Tseng: Yeah.
216 00:24:20.810 ⇒ 00:24:24.419 Uttam Kumaran: So then we have to really make sure that we have the data stuff, like, set up to do that.
217 00:24:24.680 ⇒ 00:24:25.260 Robert Tseng: Yeah.
218 00:24:26.850 ⇒ 00:24:27.400 Uttam Kumaran: Okay.
219 00:24:40.760 ⇒ 00:24:45.650 Uttam Kumaran: Okay, do you want me to ask, Cutter, like, about what his… what he’s thinking about for pricing?
220 00:24:45.900 ⇒ 00:24:46.470 Robert Tseng: Yeah.
221 00:24:46.790 ⇒ 00:24:47.430 Uttam Kumaran: Okay.
222 00:26:03.630 ⇒ 00:26:06.210 Uttam Kumaran: Amber, anything on your side?
223 00:26:14.450 ⇒ 00:26:16.449 Uttam Kumaran: You’re on mute if you’re saying anything.
224 00:26:19.210 ⇒ 00:26:20.790 Amber Lin: Sorry, were you asking me?
225 00:26:21.200 ⇒ 00:26:24.919 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I just said if you needed any help on anything on your side.
226 00:26:24.920 ⇒ 00:26:39.160 Amber Lin: No, I just talked to Robert. One of the slides I’m doing is on the ROI, but I know you guys are planning to do one for cutters, so I don’t know how, if should I do it? I’m doing, like, a…
227 00:26:40.000 ⇒ 00:26:45.540 Amber Lin: Model on how growth would impact if they do advertising, but if you guys are already doing it.
228 00:26:45.540 ⇒ 00:26:50.970 Uttam Kumaran: I would… I think you should do yours, and then Robert sums it up into, like, a one-number…
229 00:26:52.230 ⇒ 00:26:53.959 Uttam Kumaran: Percentage of revenue.
230 00:26:53.960 ⇒ 00:26:54.989 Amber Lin: Cool, okay.
231 00:26:55.780 ⇒ 00:26:56.370 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
232 00:26:57.200 ⇒ 00:26:58.590 Uttam Kumaran: Is my opinion.
233 00:26:59.160 ⇒ 00:26:59.710 Robert Tseng: Yeah.
234 00:27:02.050 ⇒ 00:27:08.090 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I think… I think it’s… it would be great, Amber, to show, like, Something truly on, like…
235 00:27:08.350 ⇒ 00:27:12.920 Uttam Kumaran: customer acquisition costs, their true LTV, like…
236 00:27:14.140 ⇒ 00:27:23.929 Uttam Kumaran: and, like, have those numbers for us to then back into why our… basically, I want to, as many ways as possible, I want to show that our opportunity
237 00:27:24.590 ⇒ 00:27:36.350 Uttam Kumaran: with us is, like, so, like, cheap, and, like, we should just go ahead and do it. Because I’ve already… I’ve already primed them. Last week, I told them we were going to do it this way, and that we wanted to sign a deal that was performance-based, so…
238 00:27:37.490 ⇒ 00:27:38.810 Uttam Kumaran: as, like…
239 00:27:39.480 ⇒ 00:27:45.720 Uttam Kumaran: I don’t like surprises, like, as much as we can come in there and just lock this in and move, like, I’d be so happy, you know?
240 00:27:48.350 ⇒ 00:27:49.750 Amber Lin: Cool.
241 00:27:49.750 ⇒ 00:27:54.800 Uttam Kumaran: As many ways, in the meeting, I could handle the objections, is kind of, like, what I would need.
242 00:27:55.270 ⇒ 00:28:08.919 Amber Lin: Yeah, I have high-level numbers. I wouldn’t have their CAC by service, as long as they don’t have tracking on the service level, but I have, like, the high-level, CAC, so we can.
243 00:28:08.920 ⇒ 00:28:12.630 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, just high level, like, customers divided by the spend.
244 00:28:13.390 ⇒ 00:28:15.100 Uttam Kumaran: That’s all we can do right now.
245 00:28:15.390 ⇒ 00:28:16.390 Amber Lin: Cool, okay.
246 00:28:17.170 ⇒ 00:28:21.880 Uttam Kumaran: And then, were you able to do any of those follow-ups on the LTV stuff?
247 00:28:22.450 ⇒ 00:28:30.509 Amber Lin: What do you mean by the LTV? So, I’m doing the follow-up on the ROI model that they were really interested in, and that.
248 00:28:30.510 ⇒ 00:28:38.429 Uttam Kumaran: I know last time they were asking a lot about, like, the length of the customer’s time, right? Like, we want… one, we wanted to filter out the one time.
249 00:28:39.080 ⇒ 00:28:40.960 Uttam Kumaran: services.
250 00:28:41.820 ⇒ 00:28:44.660 Uttam Kumaran: We also wanted to filter out,
251 00:28:47.890 ⇒ 00:28:52.770 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, one time, and then… Yeah, like the one-time HVAC.
252 00:28:53.600 ⇒ 00:28:56.920 Amber Lin: Remember they mentioned, like, hey, can we filter these out so that, like.
253 00:28:56.920 ⇒ 00:28:58.710 Uttam Kumaran: Doesn’t skew the data as much.
254 00:28:59.310 ⇒ 00:29:11.100 Amber Lin: I see. We were able to show them, like, per service, how long it is, and that per service is like, oh, HVAC one time is usually this long, HVAC maintenance is usually this long.
255 00:29:11.100 ⇒ 00:29:19.379 Amber Lin: So, like, I think what you’re asking is, like, on average, can we filter them out? But, like, per service, I think we already showed them the.
256 00:29:19.380 ⇒ 00:29:22.289 Uttam Kumaran: On average, yes, like, when we roll it up, yeah.
257 00:29:22.810 ⇒ 00:29:23.440 Amber Lin: Cool.
258 00:29:23.980 ⇒ 00:29:27.869 Uttam Kumaran: And then, the other thing they asked for was if we could,
259 00:29:29.180 ⇒ 00:29:35.420 Uttam Kumaran: not only do the LTV in terms of dollars, but LTV in terms of, lengths.
260 00:29:38.110 ⇒ 00:29:39.670 Amber Lin: What does that mean?
261 00:29:39.670 ⇒ 00:29:42.330 Uttam Kumaran: Like, the lifetime of the customer.
262 00:29:42.890 ⇒ 00:29:47.110 Amber Lin: Isn’t that the same as the duration that we just talked about?
263 00:29:47.250 ⇒ 00:29:48.779 Uttam Kumaran: Did we show duration?
264 00:29:48.780 ⇒ 00:30:00.660 Amber Lin: Yeah, I have the duration for, like, the cancellations, so I know, like, how long… oh, I see, so you mean, like, not including customers… including customers who haven’t canceled yet.
265 00:30:01.610 ⇒ 00:30:06.720 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, but I guess, how would you know their… If they had churned, right?
266 00:30:06.720 ⇒ 00:30:07.400 Amber Lin: Yeah.
267 00:30:07.400 ⇒ 00:30:12.840 Uttam Kumaran: Oh, actually… I wouldn’t… Well, no, no, I actually do think you do have the cancellation date, right? So…
268 00:30:12.840 ⇒ 00:30:19.929 Amber Lin: Yeah, I have the cancellation of how long they stayed, but, like, for still active customers, I don’t…
269 00:30:19.930 ⇒ 00:30:22.030 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I’m just talking about for the churn customers.
270 00:30:22.030 ⇒ 00:30:22.570 Amber Lin: Oh, okay.
271 00:30:22.570 ⇒ 00:30:23.080 Uttam Kumaran: Okay, okay, mate.
272 00:30:23.080 ⇒ 00:30:26.209 Amber Lin: They still died last time already, so they already have seen it.
273 00:30:27.120 ⇒ 00:30:29.039 Uttam Kumaran: And then, did we show, like…
274 00:30:30.050 ⇒ 00:30:34.050 Uttam Kumaran: the combination of services? Like, impacts on…
275 00:30:34.290 ⇒ 00:30:43.359 Uttam Kumaran: Because remember, one thing we wanted to talk about was, like, whether… Purchasing one service first.
276 00:30:44.070 ⇒ 00:30:49.249 Uttam Kumaran: led to a higher LTV, but the problem was, like, HVAC is always going to be higher.
277 00:30:49.440 ⇒ 00:30:52.340 Uttam Kumaran: So we need to normalize this somehow, you know?
278 00:30:53.480 ⇒ 00:30:56.650 Uttam Kumaran: Because natural HVAC is a more expensive thing.
279 00:30:57.870 ⇒ 00:31:01.169 Uttam Kumaran: So that’s why I was more interested in looking at length of customer.
280 00:31:01.360 ⇒ 00:31:06.899 Uttam Kumaran: Because it’s… it’s a unit of time that’s fixed, regardless of the service you buy.
281 00:31:08.280 ⇒ 00:31:12.889 Uttam Kumaran: So, what you can do is you can look at the average lifetime of the customer, like.
282 00:31:13.280 ⇒ 00:31:16.579 Uttam Kumaran: For the… for the folks that cancel.
283 00:31:17.350 ⇒ 00:31:19.569 Uttam Kumaran: when their first purchase was X.
284 00:31:21.840 ⇒ 00:31:38.059 Amber Lin: Yeah, I… I think I can do that, but, like, there’s different frequencies of services as well for, their different available services. Like, HVAC, they might only service… like, for example, their annual versus their monthly.
285 00:31:38.060 ⇒ 00:31:53.740 Amber Lin: like, the duration matters less for their overall LTV, because then the annual customer gets one service per year and cancels within 3 years, versus, like, the monthly customer would have gotten, like, 10 or 12 services.
286 00:31:53.900 ⇒ 00:31:58.090 Amber Lin: But might cancel for… might cancel sooner, so…
287 00:31:58.430 ⇒ 00:32:01.380 Amber Lin: Okay. And I don’t know how accurate the duration is.
288 00:32:04.050 ⇒ 00:32:04.920 Uttam Kumaran: Okay.
289 00:32:09.070 ⇒ 00:32:15.649 Uttam Kumaran: Okay, all right, I’ll just think if there’s any other slide we need to… we want to try to put together for tomorrow, but okay, that’s helpful.
290 00:32:17.990 ⇒ 00:32:21.349 Uttam Kumaran: Okay, alright, I’m gonna jump, but yeah, Slack me if you need anything.
291 00:32:22.100 ⇒ 00:32:23.360 Amber Lin: Cool, sounds good.
292 00:32:23.600 ⇒ 00:32:24.770 Uttam Kumaran: Okay, thank you.