Meeting Title: Default Onboarding Strategy Discussion Date: 2026-02-26 Meeting participants: Caitlyn Vaughn, Greg Stoutenburg, Scratchpad Notetaker
WEBVTT
1 00:00:09.520 ⇒ 00:00:10.370 Greg Stoutenburg: Hey.
2 00:00:10.800 ⇒ 00:00:12.020 Caitlyn Vaughn: Hello!
3 00:00:13.750 ⇒ 00:00:14.950 Greg Stoutenburg: Do you use Zoom?
4 00:00:15.870 ⇒ 00:00:16.910 Caitlyn Vaughn: Yeah, do you?
5 00:00:16.910 ⇒ 00:00:21.720 Greg Stoutenburg: Yeah, okay. I feel like getting into a Zoom meeting requires so many clicks.
6 00:00:22.860 ⇒ 00:00:26.740 Caitlyn Vaughn: I feel like… Does it? Yeah, I guess…
7 00:00:26.740 ⇒ 00:00:27.310 Greg Stoutenburg: order.
8 00:00:27.760 ⇒ 00:00:28.640 Caitlyn Vaughn: Yeah.
9 00:00:28.640 ⇒ 00:00:29.799 Greg Stoutenburg: Calendar tab.
10 00:00:29.950 ⇒ 00:00:38.430 Greg Stoutenburg: event, Zoom link, And then, sometimes it’s like, you know, open in a… in the… Workspace, or whatever.
11 00:00:39.320 ⇒ 00:00:45.849 Greg Stoutenburg: Otherwise, you know, 3. Still, that just seems like a lot to me. And then it, like, leaves a dead tab.
12 00:00:46.070 ⇒ 00:00:47.669 Greg Stoutenburg: At the end of it, too.
13 00:00:47.890 ⇒ 00:00:49.100 Caitlyn Vaughn: That was it?
14 00:00:49.100 ⇒ 00:00:50.470 Greg Stoutenburg: Yeah. Or maybe it’s just.
15 00:00:50.470 ⇒ 00:00:53.140 Caitlyn Vaughn: I think it’s a…
16 00:00:53.140 ⇒ 00:00:58.609 Greg Stoutenburg: Three to six. Yeah, maybe, yeah, three to six clicks. It seems like, man, like, that’s.
17 00:00:58.610 ⇒ 00:00:59.050 Caitlyn Vaughn: Yeah.
18 00:00:59.380 ⇒ 00:01:01.750 Greg Stoutenburg: Anyway, relevant to onboarding.
19 00:01:01.750 ⇒ 00:01:10.099 Caitlyn Vaughn: The upside is that you get GIFs and emojis, and you can respond to threads inside of the chat. Yeah, that is nice.
20 00:01:10.240 ⇒ 00:01:11.740 Caitlyn Vaughn: Yeah, filters and stuff.
21 00:01:11.740 ⇒ 00:01:16.770 Greg Stoutenburg: All that and the integrations. Like, you know, transcripts. We’re pretty happy about that.
22 00:01:16.770 ⇒ 00:01:17.320 Caitlyn Vaughn: app.
23 00:01:18.140 ⇒ 00:01:18.560 Greg Stoutenburg: Yeah.
24 00:01:18.560 ⇒ 00:01:23.359 Caitlyn Vaughn: Okay, so I am struggling with onboarding right now.
25 00:01:23.360 ⇒ 00:01:23.870 Greg Stoutenburg: Okay.
26 00:01:23.870 ⇒ 00:01:28.769 Caitlyn Vaughn: Basically, okay, so if I just, like…
27 00:01:28.880 ⇒ 00:01:47.560 Caitlyn Vaughn: start from the top. Yep. So, obviously, our product right now is fully sales-led, right? And we’re rolling into a world in which we are not only going to keep sales-led, but also roll out product-led growth. So, there’s, like, one person working on this, which is me.
28 00:01:47.580 ⇒ 00:01:50.690 Caitlyn Vaughn: And whatever engineer I end up looping in, but like…
29 00:01:50.690 ⇒ 00:01:51.330 Greg Stoutenburg: Yep.
30 00:01:51.560 ⇒ 00:02:06.219 Caitlyn Vaughn: The point being, we don’t have the resources right now to build out, like, a ton of different onboarding flows, so I just want, like, one very simple flow that I can build off of, you know, over time. Yep. We’re gonna start with…
31 00:02:06.980 ⇒ 00:02:14.840 Caitlyn Vaughn: we’re gonna start with the sales… sales-led. So, like, we should be launching, let’s say in April.
32 00:02:15.370 ⇒ 00:02:22.389 Caitlyn Vaughn: onboard some customers, migrate over a handful of customers, and then we’ll roll out the free tier of PLG a month after.
33 00:02:22.390 ⇒ 00:02:22.970 Greg Stoutenburg: Okay.
34 00:02:23.130 ⇒ 00:02:30.879 Caitlyn Vaughn: just… this is all in theory. And then a month after that, then we will roll out, like, the paid version of self-serve. So…
35 00:02:32.240 ⇒ 00:02:34.890 Caitlyn Vaughn: That’s where we’re kind of starting with, okay.
36 00:02:34.930 ⇒ 00:02:45.499 Caitlyn Vaughn: The other piece of this is, I think that the most valuable thing that somebody could do in the product is sync in their data.
37 00:02:45.520 ⇒ 00:02:56.670 Caitlyn Vaughn: and then have access to all of their data inside of default. That’s, like, if they… if they connect it in, then we can push them a bunch of different ways. Yep. Which means, like.
38 00:02:57.290 ⇒ 00:03:00.729 Caitlyn Vaughn: The ways that they could connect in data would either be from.
39 00:03:00.900 ⇒ 00:03:04.139 Caitlyn Vaughn: a data warehouse from their CRM.
40 00:03:04.270 ⇒ 00:03:08.090 Caitlyn Vaughn: They could upload a list. They could…
41 00:03:08.440 ⇒ 00:03:21.980 Caitlyn Vaughn: That’s it. Those are the only ways. Great. Or they could hook up a form and have the form dumping in data, but that even would take too long, right? So I’m thinking, like, backfilling data into default is, like, RP0.
42 00:03:22.270 ⇒ 00:03:23.550 Caitlyn Vaughn: Yeah.
43 00:03:23.550 ⇒ 00:03:24.320 Greg Stoutenburg: Okay.
44 00:03:24.320 ⇒ 00:03:27.749 Caitlyn Vaughn: Okay, now here are some of the difficulties with that.
45 00:03:27.880 ⇒ 00:03:29.100 Greg Stoutenburg: Okay.
46 00:03:30.740 ⇒ 00:03:33.889 Caitlyn Vaughn: I think for sales-led, that’s fine.
47 00:03:34.750 ⇒ 00:03:44.710 Caitlyn Vaughn: we’re still doing, like, white glove onboarding and everything, so when somebody purchases default, goes through the process, they have a $150,000 contract with us.
48 00:03:44.710 ⇒ 00:03:45.110 Greg Stoutenburg: Yeah.
49 00:03:45.110 ⇒ 00:03:51.380 Caitlyn Vaughn: And we’re, you know, white glove onboarding every single person, that’s no problem, I’m, like, not super concerned about it.
50 00:03:51.380 ⇒ 00:04:00.079 Greg Stoutenburg: You don’t have to worry about them. You just give them, you know, a way that they receive an invite link from an admin or something like that. They come in, welcome to default.
51 00:04:00.080 ⇒ 00:04:00.490 Caitlyn Vaughn: Yep.
52 00:04:00.490 ⇒ 00:04:01.569 Greg Stoutenburg: Here’s your team.
53 00:04:01.570 ⇒ 00:04:01.960 Caitlyn Vaughn: Yeah.
54 00:04:01.960 ⇒ 00:04:04.519 Greg Stoutenburg: wait for the next email from your CSM, something like that.
55 00:04:04.520 ⇒ 00:04:05.510 Caitlyn Vaughn: Exactly.
56 00:04:05.510 ⇒ 00:04:06.659 Greg Stoutenburg: Go ahead.
57 00:04:06.660 ⇒ 00:04:15.870 Caitlyn Vaughn: But I think where… where this, like, thesis kind of starts falling apart for me is when we roll this out to PLG,
58 00:04:16.290 ⇒ 00:04:17.480 Caitlyn Vaughn: the, like…
59 00:04:17.600 ⇒ 00:04:30.749 Caitlyn Vaughn: the assumption is the first person creating their account is gonna be the person that’s gonna have to hook up everything, right? Yep. You’re gonna have to hook in your Salesforce, you’re gonna have to hook in your calendar, you’re gonna have to authenticate whatever integrations you have.
60 00:04:30.890 ⇒ 00:04:31.540 Greg Stoutenburg: Yeah.
61 00:04:31.690 ⇒ 00:04:38.570 Caitlyn Vaughn: But the issue is… I imagine a lot of people self-serving is gonna be a mixed bag, right?
62 00:04:38.570 ⇒ 00:04:39.120 Greg Stoutenburg: Yep.
63 00:04:39.390 ⇒ 00:04:43.669 Caitlyn Vaughn: And I’m gonna… I’m thinking that a good portion of people that are coming in are gonna be…
64 00:04:45.180 ⇒ 00:04:59.900 Caitlyn Vaughn: members of go-to-market with little to no authority, right? So they actually don’t have the permissions inside of, like, Salesforce or any of their integrations to actually hook it up to default and get data reading and writing.
65 00:04:59.900 ⇒ 00:05:07.170 Greg Stoutenburg: Yep. So then what do we do? Yeah. Yeah, I think you need a concept of, there has to be a concept of an admin.
66 00:05:07.170 ⇒ 00:05:20.420 Greg Stoutenburg: that’s separate from the concept of the team creator. So the team creator can be, you know, the first person that comes in, they’re, by default, admins. Anyone else, they can designate anyone else to be an admin, and that’s going to be someone who’s got permissions to connect any apps and things like that.
67 00:05:20.960 ⇒ 00:05:28.770 Greg Stoutenburg: So, thought of this way… by the way, this is exactly the same structure at Stack Overflow for Teams when I was working on learning there, so this is, like, this is perfect.
68 00:05:28.770 ⇒ 00:05:29.440 Caitlyn Vaughn: Yay!
69 00:05:29.440 ⇒ 00:05:48.159 Greg Stoutenburg: Yeah, so, so with that concept then, you know, right, because the team creator could be, yeah, GTM person, it could just be whatever, the buyer, you know, finance at whatever.com, right? Yeah. So, so then, so then the person who comes in, what that means then is that if you, if someone gets the, like, the admin role.
70 00:05:48.630 ⇒ 00:05:51.720 Greg Stoutenburg: The first time they come in, they get admin onboarding.
71 00:05:51.810 ⇒ 00:06:11.089 Greg Stoutenburg: So you have to do… so that you do onboarding based on role, rather than by, like, first access, or something like that. Thought of this way, and you know, I hear everything that you’re saying about, like, resource considerations, this is just you doing this, these different phases will roll out 3 to 4 weeks apart.
72 00:06:12.010 ⇒ 00:06:21.449 Greg Stoutenburg: So, what we can work on then is, is an onboarding journey that has a person connect data sources.
73 00:06:22.940 ⇒ 00:06:31.940 Greg Stoutenburg: separately for any member, their onboarding journey is going to be looking at and interacting with data sources, right? You know, calendar scheduling, things like that.
74 00:06:32.620 ⇒ 00:06:38.429 Caitlyn Vaughn: What if somebody comes in that doesn’t have access, and also they don’t have access to somebody
75 00:06:38.600 ⇒ 00:06:50.250 Caitlyn Vaughn: like, maybe it’s a big enterprise company, they can’t just be like, oh, Greg, will you hook everything up? Because you’re like, I have to go through, you know, security, or like, we can’t, you know… So then… so then what do we do with those people?
76 00:06:50.250 ⇒ 00:07:05.119 Greg Stoutenburg: Yeah, well, I mean, so there’s gotta be someone who is able… I mean, if this is entirely self-service, and the goal isn’t ultimately to just, you know, hand them over to a sales rep, then there’s gotta be… I mean, there has to be someone in the company who’s able to do things like supply API secrets.
77 00:07:05.120 ⇒ 00:07:05.590 Caitlyn Vaughn: Yeah.
78 00:07:05.590 ⇒ 00:07:15.519 Greg Stoutenburg: you know, or whatever, you know, connecting whatever apps. Like, someone’s got to be able to do it. So, the initial steps of the, like, of the admin onboarding.
79 00:07:15.520 ⇒ 00:07:26.549 Greg Stoutenburg: can be, here’s the, you know, welcome to default, here’s everything you’re going to need to connect in order to use default. Make sure you have access to da-da-da-da-da.
80 00:07:26.550 ⇒ 00:07:27.200 Caitlyn Vaughn: Hmm.
81 00:07:27.200 ⇒ 00:07:38.489 Greg Stoutenburg: This might be someone who’s your, you know, if it’s not you, this might be someone on your engineering team. You know, reach out to that person, here’s the documentation that you need to give them, and add them to your team.
82 00:07:39.010 ⇒ 00:07:39.940 Caitlyn Vaughn: Hmm.
83 00:07:40.170 ⇒ 00:07:46.780 Caitlyn Vaughn: Do you think we should stop people that don’t have proper access from Getting into default.
84 00:07:47.930 ⇒ 00:07:58.179 Greg Stoutenburg: Yeah, that’s always a tough question. So this is… that’s the kind of question that, for me, always just turns into an experiment. Like, let’s see what happens if you do that. I could see… I could see the…
85 00:07:58.480 ⇒ 00:08:01.099 Greg Stoutenburg: The sense of,
86 00:08:01.610 ⇒ 00:08:22.009 Greg Stoutenburg: you’re only able to get to… you’re only able to get to the initial setup screens where you’d connect the data sources, and then if you don’t have them connected, you can’t, like, get out of that raised modal or something like that. Maybe you can sort of see the background there, but you can’t actually access it, if you don’t have anything in it. And a reason why… the pros and cons of this approach.
87 00:08:22.010 ⇒ 00:08:26.339 Greg Stoutenburg: A pro is that if someone’s clicking around and just looking at a bunch of empty space.
88 00:08:26.350 ⇒ 00:08:31.110 Greg Stoutenburg: they’re looking at menus with words on them that don’t mean anything. They go, I don’t understand this product, I quit.
89 00:08:31.110 ⇒ 00:08:33.020 Caitlyn Vaughn: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
90 00:08:33.190 ⇒ 00:08:36.900 Greg Stoutenburg: Yeah. On the other hand, some people really are tire kickers.
91 00:08:36.900 ⇒ 00:08:37.380 Caitlyn Vaughn: Oh, yeah.
92 00:08:37.380 ⇒ 00:08:44.750 Greg Stoutenburg: who would… who… who have a more, sort of, opinionated view as they come in and want to explore. So…
93 00:08:45.310 ⇒ 00:08:49.620 Greg Stoutenburg: I mean, this is not what you asked for, but if you wanted to…
94 00:08:49.620 ⇒ 00:09:06.660 Greg Stoutenburg: If you wanted to experiment with this and see what might be a better fit for default, you could… you could try a couple of different paths, right? A version is just, you get in, if you don’t connect your data sources, you don’t go anywhere. Like, you’re not… you’re not using default, and the goal of using default is supposed to be to use default, so, you know.
95 00:09:06.990 ⇒ 00:09:08.290 Greg Stoutenburg: No calendar.
96 00:09:08.480 ⇒ 00:09:11.370 Greg Stoutenburg: Come back later, or… or quit.
97 00:09:11.670 ⇒ 00:09:24.270 Greg Stoutenburg: if that seems too heavy-handed, you can do something like, oh, you can’t connect your data sources right now? Fine. We’ve populated a bunch of dummy data for you, so you can explore the product, make sure you like it.
98 00:09:24.410 ⇒ 00:09:28.670 Greg Stoutenburg: And, you know… Come back and connect your calendar when you can.
99 00:09:29.230 ⇒ 00:09:31.910 Caitlyn Vaughn: Hmm, that’s interesting.
100 00:09:32.000 ⇒ 00:09:37.230 Greg Stoutenburg: Dummy data can be a nice way to go, because it allows you to do something that’s, like, much better than a product tour.
101 00:09:37.230 ⇒ 00:09:38.210 Caitlyn Vaughn: Yeah.
102 00:09:38.290 ⇒ 00:09:41.179 Greg Stoutenburg: And so you don’t, you don’t lock the user out.
103 00:09:42.160 ⇒ 00:09:44.650 Greg Stoutenburg: Yeah, you give… you give them a sense of the tool.
104 00:09:44.820 ⇒ 00:09:48.239 Greg Stoutenburg: But again, the downside is they’re not really using the tool, right?
105 00:09:48.240 ⇒ 00:09:48.770 Caitlyn Vaughn: Yeah.
106 00:09:48.770 ⇒ 00:09:54.389 Greg Stoutenburg: And you have to… you also have to wonder, like, are they really hitting an aha moment if they’re just looking at, you know.
107 00:09:54.500 ⇒ 00:09:58.810 Greg Stoutenburg: book a calendar appointment with John Smith at 123 Main Street, right? Like.
108 00:09:58.810 ⇒ 00:09:59.430 Caitlyn Vaughn: Duh.
109 00:10:00.570 ⇒ 00:10:01.010 Caitlyn Vaughn: Yeah.
110 00:10:01.010 ⇒ 00:10:04.370 Greg Stoutenburg: Beats nothing, probably, but by how much? Hard to tell.
111 00:10:04.370 ⇒ 00:10:06.390 Caitlyn Vaughn: That’s actually…
112 00:10:06.680 ⇒ 00:10:16.219 Caitlyn Vaughn: possibly a really good idea. Like, if somebody can’t connect in their own data, then the second thing we do would be to push them into, like, a…
113 00:10:16.600 ⇒ 00:10:22.760 Caitlyn Vaughn: Like, a sandbox account, or like an arcade, like, demo of the product that’s kind of pre-vaped.
114 00:10:23.090 ⇒ 00:10:24.880 Caitlyn Vaughn: You can do that.
115 00:10:25.630 ⇒ 00:10:28.740 Greg Stoutenburg: you can do that and try that out. Now,
116 00:10:28.950 ⇒ 00:10:44.070 Greg Stoutenburg: then, you know, then there’s a third option, is, depending on what your volume would look like here, is, okay, you can’t connect your resources right now, not really sure what to do, click this button, and a member of our support team will reach out. Now.
117 00:10:45.140 ⇒ 00:10:49.160 Greg Stoutenburg: You slip away from self-service a little bit.
118 00:10:49.160 ⇒ 00:10:49.800 Caitlyn Vaughn: Stop.
119 00:10:49.800 ⇒ 00:10:58.290 Greg Stoutenburg: But, then again, you know, even… even some of your cheaper plans are, you know, they cost some money. So, you know, if there’s a… if there’s a support
120 00:10:59.050 ⇒ 00:11:06.839 Greg Stoutenburg: half an hour that goes into telling someone, hey, here’s exactly what you need to tell your engineering head. Maybe that’s not so bad.
121 00:11:07.610 ⇒ 00:11:08.170 Caitlyn Vaughn: Hmm.
122 00:11:08.170 ⇒ 00:11:15.219 Greg Stoutenburg: So that’s… so there’s several different options. As far as prioritization, if it’s me, I would probably start with
123 00:11:15.440 ⇒ 00:11:29.249 Greg Stoutenburg: the easiest thing? The easiest thing to set up is definitely going to be come in, connect your data sources, if you’re not the person who can do it, take this resource and invite your, you know, your engineer…
124 00:11:29.250 ⇒ 00:11:30.360 Caitlyn Vaughn: You’re the right person.
125 00:11:30.360 ⇒ 00:11:41.490 Greg Stoutenburg: Yeah, type their email address in here, and we’re going to send them an email that says, you’re invited to your org’s default team, these are the things that you need to connect, and here are the docs that’ll help you do it.
126 00:11:46.420 ⇒ 00:11:47.690 Caitlyn Vaughn: Okay, like this.
127 00:11:47.990 ⇒ 00:11:57.010 Caitlyn Vaughn: What was I gonna say? Oh, the other… the other thing that people could do…
128 00:11:57.170 ⇒ 00:12:07.369 Caitlyn Vaughn: like, let’s say it’s a BDR that’s gonna use the product, and they’re gonna come in, sign up, and then they’re like, oh, I actually don’t have API access to Salesforce, yeah.
129 00:12:07.440 ⇒ 00:12:17.900 Caitlyn Vaughn: We could prompt them to upload a list, like a CSV, into tables, so that they have some data in there, but I’m wondering if that is…
130 00:12:18.170 ⇒ 00:12:31.869 Caitlyn Vaughn: a good path for us to go, or if we should go for, like, the real value of the tool, because at that point, we’re basically, like, competing against, like, a clay tool, which is not really what we are, you know? Yeah. But it’s just a very small part of our platform.
131 00:12:31.870 ⇒ 00:12:36.190 Greg Stoutenburg: Yeah. Is there value in a single-person default team?
132 00:12:36.770 ⇒ 00:12:38.049 Caitlyn Vaughn: Yeah, for sure.
133 00:12:38.050 ⇒ 00:12:46.640 Greg Stoutenburg: Okay. Well then… then you probably do want to have something like that, right? Because, then there should be a way for a user to manually input
134 00:12:46.700 ⇒ 00:12:50.580 Greg Stoutenburg: basically anything that they want to manually input. I mean, someone might think.
135 00:12:50.590 ⇒ 00:13:01.500 Greg Stoutenburg: I, as a BDR who wants to up my volume, my productivity, I’m gonna use default rather than whatever internal tools I’ve been provided with, and so I am gonna just grab my customer list.
136 00:13:01.500 ⇒ 00:13:10.609 Greg Stoutenburg: And, you know, I’m glad no one… I’m glad no one, prevented me from downloading my customer list straight out of Salesforce, but I just got it, and I’m just gonna upload it to default on my own.
137 00:13:10.610 ⇒ 00:13:14.490 Caitlyn Vaughn: Yeah, okay, that could be a good, like, secondary path.
138 00:13:14.670 ⇒ 00:13:15.260 Greg Stoutenburg: Yeah.
139 00:13:15.610 ⇒ 00:13:16.460 Caitlyn Vaughn: Okay.
140 00:13:17.790 ⇒ 00:13:22.180 Caitlyn Vaughn: Okay, I’m on board with this. You’re speaking truths, I love it.
141 00:13:22.590 ⇒ 00:13:24.279 Caitlyn Vaughn: I’m untangling my brain, I feel like.
142 00:13:24.280 ⇒ 00:13:25.220 Greg Stoutenburg: Great.
143 00:13:25.220 ⇒ 00:13:27.249 Caitlyn Vaughn: It seems so simple when you say it.
144 00:13:28.160 ⇒ 00:13:33.320 Caitlyn Vaughn: And then let me take you into, like, I started building out some onboarding.
145 00:13:34.010 ⇒ 00:13:36.220 Greg Stoutenburg: I’ll put you over here, then, for the big screen.
146 00:13:36.350 ⇒ 00:13:37.280 Caitlyn Vaughn: What’s that?
147 00:13:37.280 ⇒ 00:13:44.459 Greg Stoutenburg: I’ll put… I just moved you over to the big screen. Oh, nice. Now that I’m… this is laptop, big screen.
148 00:13:44.460 ⇒ 00:13:51.600 Caitlyn Vaughn: Nice. Okay, so here is the sign-up. It’s like, create an account. This is for the PLG sign-up.
149 00:13:51.780 ⇒ 00:13:52.140 Greg Stoutenburg: Yep.
150 00:13:52.140 ⇒ 00:13:58.600 Caitlyn Vaughn: Create an account, welcome to default, tell us more about yourself, put in your name, display name.
151 00:13:58.830 ⇒ 00:14:06.980 Caitlyn Vaughn: Tell us more, put in your phone number. And this is mainly, like, so when an enterprise customer signs up, that we can immediately start calling them.
152 00:14:06.980 ⇒ 00:14:07.810 Greg Stoutenburg: Yeah.
153 00:14:07.980 ⇒ 00:14:10.190 Caitlyn Vaughn: Create your workspace…
154 00:14:10.650 ⇒ 00:14:20.170 Caitlyn Vaughn: download the default, handoff browser extension. We’ll eventually be able to do basically anything in default through the extension.
155 00:14:20.170 ⇒ 00:14:20.780 Greg Stoutenburg: Cool.
156 00:14:20.780 ⇒ 00:14:24.110 Caitlyn Vaughn: And then design your workspace…
157 00:14:24.110 ⇒ 00:14:26.340 Greg Stoutenburg: Yeah. What tools are you using?
158 00:14:27.540 ⇒ 00:14:30.270 Caitlyn Vaughn: Are you setting up by yourself or with a team?
159 00:14:30.270 ⇒ 00:14:30.930 Greg Stoutenburg: Yep.
160 00:14:30.930 ⇒ 00:14:36.110 Caitlyn Vaughn: How did you hear about us, attribution, and then connecting your calendar.
161 00:14:36.110 ⇒ 00:14:36.680 Greg Stoutenburg: Yep.
162 00:14:36.680 ⇒ 00:14:37.830 Caitlyn Vaughn: So…
163 00:14:37.950 ⇒ 00:14:45.680 Caitlyn Vaughn: My question is, I showed this to, like, one of our advisors, and he was basically like, I would cut 90% of this.
164 00:14:45.680 ⇒ 00:14:46.900 Greg Stoutenburg: A lot of screens, yep.
165 00:14:46.900 ⇒ 00:14:54.159 Caitlyn Vaughn: Yeah, so I’ve, like, sharpened it up over here. I don’t know if this is better or worse.
166 00:14:54.880 ⇒ 00:14:58.730 Greg Stoutenburg: So before we go through, can I just add, what is…
167 00:14:58.930 ⇒ 00:15:03.550 Greg Stoutenburg: What’s the first moment someone’s going to experience value when they sign up?
168 00:15:03.880 ⇒ 00:15:06.850 Caitlyn Vaughn: When they see all their data streaming into default.
169 00:15:06.850 ⇒ 00:15:10.650 Greg Stoutenburg: Okay, so then I think what we want to see is just the minimum number of steps to get there.
170 00:15:10.650 ⇒ 00:15:11.770 Caitlyn Vaughn: Yeah. And then…
171 00:15:11.770 ⇒ 00:15:26.750 Greg Stoutenburg: And then anything above that, we want to justify by going, alright, if there’s an additional step that we want to give the user, there’s some other, like, user goal that that’s going to help satisfy. And that’s… that’s it, right? You strike the balance between, like.
172 00:15:27.150 ⇒ 00:15:33.949 Greg Stoutenburg: frictionless sign-up, and signing up to something, you know, worth it. So, yeah, okay.
173 00:15:33.950 ⇒ 00:15:34.960 Caitlyn Vaughn: Okay, so…
174 00:15:34.960 ⇒ 00:15:38.550 Greg Stoutenburg: Data streaming in, that’s what we’re… that’s… that’s what I’ll keep in mind looking at this.
175 00:15:38.550 ⇒ 00:15:41.489 Caitlyn Vaughn: Okay, so, still, you still need to create an account.
176 00:15:41.490 ⇒ 00:15:42.520 Greg Stoutenburg: Yep, yep.
177 00:15:42.520 ⇒ 00:15:48.879 Caitlyn Vaughn: welcome screen, which goes into Connect Your CRM, because that’s really the main thing I want them to do.
178 00:15:48.880 ⇒ 00:15:49.620 Greg Stoutenburg: Perfect.
179 00:15:49.800 ⇒ 00:15:54.659 Caitlyn Vaughn: I’m just shitty, I’m not a Figma user, connect to your calendar.
180 00:15:54.660 ⇒ 00:15:55.280 Greg Stoutenburg: Yep.
181 00:15:55.430 ⇒ 00:15:57.369 Caitlyn Vaughn: And then…
182 00:15:58.000 ⇒ 00:16:05.090 Caitlyn Vaughn: I don’t know, I could leave this or keep it, but I know that our growth team really is caring a lot about attribution.
183 00:16:05.270 ⇒ 00:16:06.010 Greg Stoutenburg: Okay.
184 00:16:06.290 ⇒ 00:16:09.749 Caitlyn Vaughn: So that’s… yeah. I mean, this is, like, how they get paid.
185 00:16:09.750 ⇒ 00:16:10.480 Greg Stoutenburg: Right.
186 00:16:10.720 ⇒ 00:16:11.510 Greg Stoutenburg: Yep.
187 00:16:12.190 ⇒ 00:16:14.839 Caitlyn Vaughn: And then it drops them into the homepage.
188 00:16:14.980 ⇒ 00:16:21.240 Greg Stoutenburg: Okay. And now, hopefully, by here, they’ll have, like.
189 00:16:21.570 ⇒ 00:16:24.919 Greg Stoutenburg: where they can use their CRM is really obvious, right? Like.
190 00:16:25.470 ⇒ 00:16:28.939 Greg Stoutenburg: Will one of the panels be, like, their CRM widget?
191 00:16:30.020 ⇒ 00:16:31.599 Caitlyn Vaughn: Yeah, so…
192 00:16:31.760 ⇒ 00:16:51.490 Caitlyn Vaughn: the way that you can interact with our core data model is through tables. That’s where you can pull all of, like, default objects, or all the objects inside of your CRM into either, like, a person or company table, and then you can create, like, a filtered view, you can enrich it, you can edit the data, push the data back, you know, that kind of stuff.
193 00:16:51.870 ⇒ 00:16:52.440 Greg Stoutenburg: Yep.
194 00:16:53.220 ⇒ 00:16:53.710 Greg Stoutenburg: Cool.
195 00:16:53.710 ⇒ 00:16:59.869 Caitlyn Vaughn: Yeah. I mean, does this make more sense? Like, do we need attribution? Maybe we don’t. Do we…
196 00:17:00.170 ⇒ 00:17:08.560 Greg Stoutenburg: Well, I mean, so the… I guess the way that I would answer that question is just to go, like, what’s the goal of onboarding, right? Like.
197 00:17:08.569 ⇒ 00:17:08.889 Caitlyn Vaughn: Yeah.
198 00:17:08.890 ⇒ 00:17:10.679 Greg Stoutenburg: If it’s getting the user to value.
199 00:17:10.869 ⇒ 00:17:13.319 Greg Stoutenburg: How did you hear about us doesn’t help.
200 00:17:13.390 ⇒ 00:17:33.370 Greg Stoutenburg: You know, either of them, you know, no attribution question is ever going to help. A progressive profiling question is never going to help, you know, just, like, filling in their user profile, unless those steps are going to lead to some kind of personalization in the app that’s going to be, you know, cool. So, that’s relevant, then, to the calendar
201 00:17:33.470 ⇒ 00:17:46.910 Greg Stoutenburg: And also to the CRM, because there, it’s… it introduces a friction step, right? Like, you’re asking them to set something up, but that enables them that once they get into the app, they’re able to do the cool stuff that’s gonna show off how great default is.
202 00:17:47.260 ⇒ 00:17:51.170 Greg Stoutenburg: I mean, for first pass, like.
203 00:17:51.340 ⇒ 00:18:05.719 Greg Stoutenburg: you know, if there’s… if there’s enough internal pressure to include the attribution question, sure, you know, include it. Other ways to get it answered and, you know, help the growth team and help customer mapping can be things like someone is using
204 00:18:05.720 ⇒ 00:18:12.530 Greg Stoutenburg: the product, and the first time they perform some action, which action, I don’t know, the first time they enrich something.
205 00:18:13.010 ⇒ 00:18:20.420 Greg Stoutenburg: Then they get a, you know, they see it, cool, this is amazing. Now they get a question, how’d you hear about us? That’s another way to do it, right?
206 00:18:20.420 ⇒ 00:18:20.780 Caitlyn Vaughn: Yeah.
207 00:18:20.780 ⇒ 00:18:24.689 Greg Stoutenburg: set that up in some way. And if it’s not first action, you know, it’s…
208 00:18:24.960 ⇒ 00:18:32.730 Greg Stoutenburg: 10 minutes after sign-up, or something, you know, primitive like that, but it helps with those onboarding steps that you’d love to be able to ask all at once, but.
209 00:18:32.730 ⇒ 00:18:33.170 Caitlyn Vaughn: Yeah.
210 00:18:33.170 ⇒ 00:18:36.310 Greg Stoutenburg: Do it, then the users get turned off at step 6, you know?
211 00:18:36.310 ⇒ 00:18:50.989 Caitlyn Vaughn: Yeah, okay, that makes sense. And then the other thing is, so looking at that shortened onboarding flow, I basically have sign up, and then I’m asking people to connect in their data… just two data sources, right?
212 00:18:50.990 ⇒ 00:18:51.680 Greg Stoutenburg: Yep, good.
213 00:18:51.680 ⇒ 00:19:10.069 Caitlyn Vaughn: But alternatively, I could skip all of that, right? Could be, sign up, you click, it creates an account for you. We’re only allowing work emails, so we could just pull out their domain and make that, you know, the account name, and then drop them into the homepage.
214 00:19:10.070 ⇒ 00:19:16.119 Caitlyn Vaughn: And then start prompting them to go into tables, and I’m trying to fucking show you this. Let’s see, I’m gonna turn off my camera…
215 00:19:16.120 ⇒ 00:19:17.739 Greg Stoutenburg: Loading, yep, sure.
216 00:19:17.740 ⇒ 00:19:26.299 Caitlyn Vaughn: Okay, well, I guess TLDR is, like, the starting page for tables is… it says either, like.
217 00:19:26.800 ⇒ 00:19:36.320 Caitlyn Vaughn: start from CRM, start from default, default database, or start from CSV upload.
218 00:19:37.110 ⇒ 00:19:37.760 Greg Stoutenburg: Yup.
219 00:19:38.120 ⇒ 00:19:40.489 Caitlyn Vaughn: And this is probably, like, the best.
220 00:19:41.400 ⇒ 00:19:47.230 Caitlyn Vaughn: Place that we could… we could, like, be like, okay, connect in your CRM, you know? And then…
221 00:19:47.230 ⇒ 00:19:47.670 Greg Stoutenburg: Yeah.
222 00:19:47.670 ⇒ 00:19:53.720 Caitlyn Vaughn: Prompt people to do that in there, instead of having it on, like, the home screen, or on the, like, sign-up screen.
223 00:19:53.720 ⇒ 00:19:58.420 Greg Stoutenburg: Yeah, yeah. This is… I think both are pretty slick.
224 00:19:58.670 ⇒ 00:20:08.489 Greg Stoutenburg: Okay. I think here… I think to pick one… so they both look good, and I think they would both, achieve a goal. I think…
225 00:20:08.750 ⇒ 00:20:10.660 Greg Stoutenburg: Choosing which one you want to do.
226 00:20:11.420 ⇒ 00:20:20.749 Greg Stoutenburg: Should depend on your answer to the question, do you want to stop someone from using default if they don’t connect data sources, or do you want to let them poke around?
227 00:20:22.180 ⇒ 00:20:38.910 Greg Stoutenburg: So, if you want to make sure that they perform the action included in the initial screens, and the reason is, there’s something about it being part of, you know, that second click that really enforces the idea, like, I have to do this to use this product. This is how you use default.
228 00:20:39.070 ⇒ 00:20:39.950 Caitlyn Vaughn: Yeah.
229 00:20:42.600 ⇒ 00:20:44.320 Caitlyn Vaughn: That’s interesting.
230 00:20:44.740 ⇒ 00:20:52.649 Caitlyn Vaughn: I feel like this is probably more playing into the second thing that you talked about, which is, like, still allowing people into the app.
231 00:20:52.920 ⇒ 00:20:53.520 Greg Stoutenburg: Yeah.
232 00:20:53.520 ⇒ 00:20:57.940 Caitlyn Vaughn: But they could also still upload a CSV, right, and get value out of it.
233 00:20:58.110 ⇒ 00:20:59.520 Greg Stoutenburg: Yeah. Yep.
234 00:20:59.890 ⇒ 00:21:04.659 Caitlyn Vaughn: So, I don’t know, though. It’s like, how do I stop someone if I let them in this far, or…
235 00:21:04.660 ⇒ 00:21:05.340 Greg Stoutenburg: Right.
236 00:21:05.340 ⇒ 00:21:12.199 Caitlyn Vaughn: if… even on the… on the first version, where I’m asking for CRM up front, like, if they were to skip that.
237 00:21:13.110 ⇒ 00:21:17.770 Caitlyn Vaughn: Or, like, try to connect in and they didn’t have a proper authentication, then, like…
238 00:21:18.620 ⇒ 00:21:21.620 Caitlyn Vaughn: I’m like, do you wanna upload a list, or do you wanna…
239 00:21:21.620 ⇒ 00:21:22.250 Greg Stoutenburg: Yeah.
240 00:21:22.580 ⇒ 00:21:25.770 Caitlyn Vaughn: Or do you want to invite an admin, maybe, is the next step?
241 00:21:25.770 ⇒ 00:21:26.340 Greg Stoutenburg: Yeah.
242 00:21:26.550 ⇒ 00:21:44.330 Greg Stoutenburg: Yeah, yeah, what we could do here, so maybe the user gets in, they get to this page, say they decide to try to navigate away from it, then you get some kind of, just, like, permanent alert, like a tooltip kind of alert, that’s over the,
243 00:21:44.840 ⇒ 00:21:58.439 Greg Stoutenburg: over the connection action that needs to happen, like, down at the main toolbar. Just so that… just so they know, like, that’s still there for them. Or, you know, surface an alert on the main OS page that’s, like.
244 00:21:58.720 ⇒ 00:22:03.609 Greg Stoutenburg: you know, to use default… I’m not… I’ve never been a copy person, but to use default…
245 00:22:03.650 ⇒ 00:22:04.630 Caitlyn Vaughn: Yeah.
246 00:22:04.630 ⇒ 00:22:06.310 Greg Stoutenburg: You need to connect a data source.
247 00:22:06.310 ⇒ 00:22:07.150 Caitlyn Vaughn: Huh.
248 00:22:07.490 ⇒ 00:22:17.209 Caitlyn Vaughn: Interesting, okay. Yeah, actually, I do agree with that. I think that if we don’t… if somebody doesn’t connect in any data, then the tool is not going to be valuable to them.
249 00:22:17.210 ⇒ 00:22:17.910 Greg Stoutenburg: Yeah.
250 00:22:18.470 ⇒ 00:22:20.950 Greg Stoutenburg: So, I think that can be the guiding insight here.
251 00:22:21.150 ⇒ 00:22:21.910 Greg Stoutenburg: 4.
252 00:22:22.160 ⇒ 00:22:26.209 Greg Stoutenburg: For how many steps there are, and for what happens if someone doesn’t follow them.
253 00:22:26.430 ⇒ 00:22:26.880 Caitlyn Vaughn: Yes.
254 00:22:26.960 ⇒ 00:22:32.370 Greg Stoutenburg: There’s just kind of no point in using… you can’t really use default without a connected data source.
255 00:22:32.370 ⇒ 00:22:37.719 Caitlyn Vaughn: I’m also wondering if I really even need the calendar integration up front.
256 00:22:38.090 ⇒ 00:22:45.319 Caitlyn Vaughn: Like… It would be good for us to see… Like, what…
257 00:22:45.440 ⇒ 00:22:51.629 Caitlyn Vaughn: Availability somebody has. And if they want to use scheduling, then it’s obviously, like, way less friction, but…
258 00:22:53.600 ⇒ 00:22:54.450 Greg Stoutenburg: Yeah.
259 00:22:54.450 ⇒ 00:22:59.160 Caitlyn Vaughn: Let me have a… let me have a think on it, because maybe we can just, like, remove that as well.
260 00:22:59.160 ⇒ 00:23:06.929 Greg Stoutenburg: Yeah, yeah, maybe you can remove it, and that’s great. You know, if there’s a way to… if what you really need to use default is the data source.
261 00:23:06.930 ⇒ 00:23:24.609 Greg Stoutenburg: and a calendar is optional but helpful, then the calendar doesn’t go as a prerequisite to getting onboarded to the product. But it can be, you connect the data source, and then we’re like, here, you know, explore the data, check it out, this is great, you can enrich stuff. Hey, this is gonna be even better now if you connect your calendar.
262 00:23:25.160 ⇒ 00:23:28.860 Greg Stoutenburg: And now, now, you know, you get the prompt to do that. Yeah. And,
263 00:23:28.990 ⇒ 00:23:42.209 Greg Stoutenburg: do you… so I know you have a customer I.O. living somewhere, and we can set up campaigns as well that look for when a user performs some action or doesn’t perform some action as part of onboarding. We have a campaign that goes out to them.
264 00:23:42.390 ⇒ 00:23:42.780 Caitlyn Vaughn: Hmm.
265 00:23:42.780 ⇒ 00:23:51.079 Greg Stoutenburg: It can be really simple, I mean, the simplest version is just some time-based campaign, you know, sign up, welcome. Next day, don’t forget to do this, this, and this, right?
266 00:23:51.550 ⇒ 00:24:14.410 Greg Stoutenburg: And hoping that they didn’t already do one of the things you’re telling them to do. But we can also set up triggers, like, the moment someone connects the data source, hey, great, good job, you’re able to do this, the next step is to connect your calendar. So that’s a thought as far as, like, guiding the experience. And then, as much as I love the beautiful, uncluttered view in Phoenix, something as simple as a checklist.
267 00:24:14.410 ⇒ 00:24:17.420 Greg Stoutenburg: Can be helpful, surface it, like, you know.
268 00:24:17.840 ⇒ 00:24:30.079 Greg Stoutenburg: Especially, in my opinion, if they can’t close the checklist until it’s completed, which is kind of nice, right? Yeah, just to remind them, right? Like, if you haven’t connected your data source and your calendar.
269 00:24:30.080 ⇒ 00:24:30.430 Caitlyn Vaughn: Yeah.
270 00:24:30.430 ⇒ 00:24:32.670 Greg Stoutenburg: You’re not really using default, right?
271 00:24:32.670 ⇒ 00:24:33.160 Caitlyn Vaughn: Yeah.
272 00:24:33.160 ⇒ 00:24:33.530 Greg Stoutenburg: So…
273 00:24:33.530 ⇒ 00:24:34.410 Caitlyn Vaughn: Yeah.
274 00:24:34.600 ⇒ 00:24:36.820 Greg Stoutenburg: That’s a… that’s an idea as well.
275 00:24:36.820 ⇒ 00:24:38.400 Caitlyn Vaughn: Yeah, that’s a good idea.
276 00:24:38.960 ⇒ 00:24:42.149 Greg Stoutenburg: Last thing, I know we’re, at time, I think.
277 00:24:42.150 ⇒ 00:24:42.799 Caitlyn Vaughn: There you go ahead.
278 00:24:42.950 ⇒ 00:24:45.720 Greg Stoutenburg: Do I? I don’t know. Oh, yeah.
279 00:24:46.100 ⇒ 00:24:57.950 Greg Stoutenburg: I don’t know, have you seen… have you used tools like Userflow before? Okay, alright, yeah. Yeah, I was gonna say, just because you mentioned the engineering constraint, like, you know, we could set up something, like.
280 00:24:58.290 ⇒ 00:25:11.309 Greg Stoutenburg: you just say… you have the basic tiles that you’ve already put up. You’re gonna do that, but then as far as some of these other things, like nudges, then you can sort of, you know, no engineering requirement, get some onboarding help there as well.
281 00:25:11.310 ⇒ 00:25:14.430 Caitlyn Vaughn: Okay, cool. Yeah, this feels like…
282 00:25:14.580 ⇒ 00:25:18.830 Caitlyn Vaughn: so much simpler. I was just, like, panicking over this, but now I feel so much better.
283 00:25:18.830 ⇒ 00:25:22.700 Greg Stoutenburg: Yeah, it’s… yeah, I think it’s like…
284 00:25:22.700 ⇒ 00:25:39.060 Greg Stoutenburg: It’s hard because, like, you want to make sure… there’s this, like, desire to make sure that anyone who signs up for any reason is able to be successful with your product, but I think, like… so then, like, that makes you want to have, like, a long and very inclusive kind of onboarding, like, maybe they’ll go this way, or maybe they’ll go that way.
285 00:25:39.060 ⇒ 00:25:39.500 Caitlyn Vaughn: Yeah.
286 00:25:39.500 ⇒ 00:25:51.249 Greg Stoutenburg: I think ultimately, like, it’s like, well, but if they’re not really gonna get value that way, then don’t let them. Right. And it sounds, you know, bossy or something, but, like, well, you want them to be able to use it, so…
287 00:25:51.250 ⇒ 00:26:07.449 Caitlyn Vaughn: It’s hard because it’s such a horizontal platform as well, that I’m like, there’s so many things that they could do, and, like, we’re trying to get away from routing and scheduling, which is such a simple use case that everyone gets, but, like, it’s not really what we’re trying to sell anymore, you know?
288 00:26:07.450 ⇒ 00:26:08.000 Greg Stoutenburg: Yeah.
289 00:26:08.000 ⇒ 00:26:09.490 Caitlyn Vaughn: Yeah, they couldn’t.
290 00:26:09.490 ⇒ 00:26:14.139 Greg Stoutenburg: Right? They could start anywhere. They could kind of start anywhere. Like, look at all the buttons. They’re not in order.
291 00:26:14.410 ⇒ 00:26:16.630 Caitlyn Vaughn: Yay, that’s true.
292 00:26:16.740 ⇒ 00:26:31.479 Caitlyn Vaughn: And then also, with the different tiers in PLG, then we’re, we’re packaging, you know? Like, different products. Like, you can’t even do routing and scheduling until you talk to sales, so it’s like, it’s not even on PLG anymore.
293 00:26:31.480 ⇒ 00:26:33.570 Greg Stoutenburg: Yeah, yep, yeah.
294 00:26:33.570 ⇒ 00:26:57.460 Greg Stoutenburg: Yeah, so, like, I guess… I guess as a recommendation, I would start with, you know, which of those approaches you want to take. Like, are you allowed to explore without connecting, or no? Yeah. And then decide on if you want the data connection to be part of the initial tiles, or if you want it to be once you land. They both… they have advantages and disadvantages, so, I think, you know, maybe just pick one, and then just run that one for a month and see how it goes.
295 00:26:57.610 ⇒ 00:27:00.049 Greg Stoutenburg: Before trying to experiment, and then…
296 00:27:00.440 ⇒ 00:27:05.699 Greg Stoutenburg: Once that is decided, then, then work on the concept of…
297 00:27:05.700 ⇒ 00:27:22.060 Greg Stoutenburg: And, you know, distinguishing the creator from an admin, and the workflow that would allow the creator, who kind of shouldn’t be an admin, to invite someone who actually has the permissions that they would need to set up data sources. And then…
298 00:27:22.440 ⇒ 00:27:25.079 Greg Stoutenburg: Yeah, well, I guess… I guess that’s kind of the only rules you need.
299 00:27:25.430 ⇒ 00:27:26.000 Caitlyn Vaughn: Yeah.
300 00:27:26.000 ⇒ 00:27:35.210 Greg Stoutenburg: Any user… you sort of want any user… well, no, that’s not true. I almost said you want any user to be able to connect data sources, but that’s not true. Without a big enough team, you don’t. Yep.
301 00:27:35.680 ⇒ 00:27:37.669 Greg Stoutenburg: Yeah, so 3 user types.
302 00:27:38.550 ⇒ 00:27:41.390 Caitlyn Vaughn: Wait, 3 is admin…
303 00:27:41.570 ⇒ 00:27:44.989 Greg Stoutenburg: Yeah, maybe only a creator can delete the account, or something like that.
304 00:27:44.990 ⇒ 00:27:45.900 Caitlyn Vaughn: Oh.
305 00:27:45.900 ⇒ 00:27:48.029 Greg Stoutenburg: Yeah, there’s a thought, right?
306 00:27:48.490 ⇒ 00:27:50.239 Greg Stoutenburg: Unless you want to let any admin do it.
307 00:27:50.430 ⇒ 00:27:54.419 Caitlyn Vaughn: Owner… yeah… I need to look at our RBAC permissions, but…
308 00:27:54.420 ⇒ 00:27:54.990 Greg Stoutenburg: Yeah.
309 00:27:55.400 ⇒ 00:27:56.060 Caitlyn Vaughn: Yeah, I think…
310 00:27:56.060 ⇒ 00:28:00.869 Greg Stoutenburg: Yeah, I’m not sure what you have in there right now. I’m sure whatever it is can be pretty much ported over, but…
311 00:28:01.000 ⇒ 00:28:04.199 Caitlyn Vaughn: Yeah, okay, also, wait, second question. So…
312 00:28:04.680 ⇒ 00:28:08.359 Caitlyn Vaughn: That’s, like, a good first flow.
313 00:28:08.770 ⇒ 00:28:12.889 Caitlyn Vaughn: The second flow that I haven’t thought about is if somebody is
314 00:28:13.130 ⇒ 00:28:16.929 Caitlyn Vaughn: Being added to an account, where everything is already stood up.
315 00:28:16.930 ⇒ 00:28:17.480 Greg Stoutenburg: Yep.
316 00:28:18.460 ⇒ 00:28:21.260 Caitlyn Vaughn: then I guess it’s simpler in some ways, but like… Yep.
317 00:28:21.430 ⇒ 00:28:27.640 Caitlyn Vaughn: Depending on their role, that is probably where we could get more specific with what we want them to do.
318 00:28:27.870 ⇒ 00:28:38.699 Greg Stoutenburg: Yeah, I think so, yeah. And I think for all of these, because you’ve got a few different tiers, and because feature sets will vary by tier and by add-on or not,
319 00:28:38.770 ⇒ 00:29:01.319 Greg Stoutenburg: I think here, the approach would be just to define, like, a first very simple path for a user entering into an account that’s already set up, just so someone can dive in and just see what’s there. And this person might… might just need the equivalent of, like, a product tour. Or maybe they even come in and just, like, the table is just bouncing the way a Slack icon bounces. Yeah. And then they click it, and then it’s like, oh, look, here it is.
320 00:29:01.320 ⇒ 00:29:07.560 Greg Stoutenburg: And then… and then from there, can continue to branch out on other things as we… as we think through.
321 00:29:07.560 ⇒ 00:29:09.860 Greg Stoutenburg: Which features you want to steer them toward, and so on.
322 00:29:10.070 ⇒ 00:29:18.480 Caitlyn Vaughn: Yeah. Also, the other thing… so, we have, like, our quote-unquote platform, right? Which is tables, workflows, and pixel.
323 00:29:18.480 ⇒ 00:29:34.749 Caitlyn Vaughn: And Pixel is our tool which has both web intent built into it. You put the script on your site, and it crawls your entire website and all the paths, and it detects any form, and then it will track any person or company that lands on a page.
324 00:29:34.750 ⇒ 00:29:43.869 Caitlyn Vaughn: Okay. Which is, like, an awesome data source. That’s, like, our most powerful one, but also, in my opinion, probably the highest friction for, like, our non-technical people. Yeah.
325 00:29:43.870 ⇒ 00:29:44.480 Greg Stoutenburg: Yep.
326 00:29:44.980 ⇒ 00:29:53.479 Caitlyn Vaughn: So I’m wondering if I even, like, allow people to do that in free. I kind of want them to if they can, but, like, I’m worried that putting it in the free tier will just confuse people.
327 00:29:53.730 ⇒ 00:29:56.789 Greg Stoutenburg: Hmm. So, why would it confuse people?
328 00:29:57.430 ⇒ 00:30:07.550 Caitlyn Vaughn: Because it’s, it’s, like, a highly technical, confusing thing. It’s not, like, a simple, straightforward, you know, just use the table.
329 00:30:07.920 ⇒ 00:30:14.040 Greg Stoutenburg: Right, right, right. And it’s… is it… I mean, is it because they have to install a cookie on a page, or…
330 00:30:14.040 ⇒ 00:30:20.569 Caitlyn Vaughn: Yeah, they have to install a script on their page, and so who signing up would have permission to… Right.
331 00:30:20.810 ⇒ 00:30:22.820 Caitlyn Vaughn: You know, do that on their site.
332 00:30:22.820 ⇒ 00:30:23.560 Greg Stoutenburg: Yeah.
333 00:30:24.050 ⇒ 00:30:31.270 Greg Stoutenburg: Well, one possible answer is, is, like, security engineers who are evaluating the product.
334 00:30:31.580 ⇒ 00:30:32.220 Caitlyn Vaughn: Hmm.
335 00:30:33.050 ⇒ 00:30:40.849 Greg Stoutenburg: My… my inclination there goes to let them do it, and just provide the docs, and also a way to contact sales.
336 00:30:40.850 ⇒ 00:30:41.250 Caitlyn Vaughn: Yeah.
337 00:30:42.280 ⇒ 00:30:49.939 Greg Stoutenburg: that is… I mean, for what it’s worth, this is, you know, anecdotal, but that is something that we sometimes saw on the free tier at Stack Overflow, is, like.
338 00:30:50.090 ⇒ 00:31:09.800 Greg Stoutenburg: you’d see… there’d be a cohort of users that would come in, and within, like, 10 minutes, have basically clicked every single button. And it’s like, who does that? And then, and then it was… it was people evaluating it for… for enterprise sales, who didn’t feel like… Oh, really? Yeah, they didn’t feel like contacting a salesperson, waiting 3 days.
339 00:31:09.800 ⇒ 00:31:24.579 Greg Stoutenburg: feeling pressure, so they just go, I’m just gonna sign up for the free version, click around, and then report back to my director of engineering on if we think, you know, this is a good approach, or, you know, or an engineer’s doing it, and they’re gonna report back to, you know, sales or whatever.
340 00:31:24.770 ⇒ 00:31:26.760 Caitlyn Vaughn: Hmm, that’s a good, that’s a really good point.
341 00:31:26.760 ⇒ 00:31:27.750 Greg Stoutenburg: So, yeah.
342 00:31:27.750 ⇒ 00:31:30.270 Caitlyn Vaughn: Yeah, okay. And then… Yeah, go ahead.
343 00:31:30.270 ⇒ 00:31:39.459 Greg Stoutenburg: I was just gonna say, and then, if you get that person’s domain, and then, you know, there’s a sales call later, you go like, hey, hey, that’s my department. Now you care about attribution, right? You go, hey.
344 00:31:39.460 ⇒ 00:31:40.140 Caitlyn Vaughn: There you go!
345 00:31:40.140 ⇒ 00:31:48.259 Greg Stoutenburg: We know that this is… this was warm in our… this was warm when you did the outreach, but really we enabled this through, this is PLG assisting sales.
346 00:31:48.260 ⇒ 00:31:56.489 Caitlyn Vaughn: I mean, it’ll be easy to track attribution with PLG to anywhere else, but it’s, like, marketing and AOB that are like, we did.
347 00:31:56.490 ⇒ 00:31:57.360 Greg Stoutenburg: Yeah.
348 00:31:57.360 ⇒ 00:31:58.160 Caitlyn Vaughn: You know?
349 00:31:58.160 ⇒ 00:32:02.910 Greg Stoutenburg: Well, yeah, and that’s one of those tricky things, right? Where someone comes in, some user comes in.
350 00:32:02.910 ⇒ 00:32:06.679 Caitlyn Vaughn: Yeah. And clicks around on a platform, and then disappears.
351 00:32:06.680 ⇒ 00:32:22.139 Greg Stoutenburg: And then later, someone… but you don’t know this, right? Someone from the same company reaches out to sales, and then they end up signing a deal. Like, that’s still the product doing the work, but it’s gonna look invisible to you if the person who came back isn’t the same one who was clicking around in the first place.
352 00:32:22.140 ⇒ 00:32:24.469 Caitlyn Vaughn: Yeah. But it should be the same domain, right?
353 00:32:24.470 ⇒ 00:32:26.719 Greg Stoutenburg: It’ll be the same domain, since you’re requiring it, yeah.
354 00:32:26.900 ⇒ 00:32:39.549 Caitlyn Vaughn: Yeah, that’s interesting. So do you think we should allow people to see the entire product, even if they don’t have access to it? Like, should they be able to click into apps that they don’t have access to, like routing and scheduling, and, like, click around, or no?
355 00:32:40.060 ⇒ 00:32:52.180 Greg Stoutenburg: I… I generally do, but I would do things like gray it out, so that they, like, they realize it’s, like, not quite there for them. Yeah. And so, like, let them see it a little bit, and then maybe there’s a button that’s, like, you know.
356 00:32:52.180 ⇒ 00:32:52.670 Caitlyn Vaughn: Yeah.
357 00:32:52.670 ⇒ 00:32:54.729 Greg Stoutenburg: Upgrade to use routing and scheduling.
358 00:32:54.890 ⇒ 00:33:02.030 Greg Stoutenburg: Or, you know, I guess in this case, contacts else use routing and scheduling, or, you know, elsewhere, it’s click this button to upgrade to this tier.
359 00:33:02.030 ⇒ 00:33:02.520 Caitlyn Vaughn: You know, bye.
360 00:33:02.530 ⇒ 00:33:03.220 Greg Stoutenburg: that.
361 00:33:03.340 ⇒ 00:33:04.300 Caitlyn Vaughn: Yeah.
362 00:33:04.300 ⇒ 00:33:11.990 Greg Stoutenburg: In general, I think anywhere that someone can’t perform an action that they would be able to perform on a higher tier, a CTA goes there.
363 00:33:24.370 ⇒ 00:33:37.000 Greg Stoutenburg: Okay, that’s so helpful. Wow, you have all the answers! I should have talked to you so long ago! Well, we’ll see, I mean, we’ll see what actually happens. We’re trying to find your Notion doc on PLG.
364 00:33:37.320 ⇒ 00:33:45.469 Caitlyn Vaughn: It’s just nice that you’re, like, definitive about it. Like, even if you’re wrong, you have, like, an opinion that’s backed by some kind of, like, logic, which I really appreciate.
365 00:33:45.470 ⇒ 00:33:45.940 Greg Stoutenburg: Yeah.
366 00:33:45.940 ⇒ 00:33:48.690 Caitlyn Vaughn: I don’t know, what do you think? I’m like, I don’t fucking know.
367 00:33:48.690 ⇒ 00:33:56.779 Greg Stoutenburg: Right, yeah. Well, yeah, I mean, somebody’s, right, and then some, somebody’s gonna, be the throat to choke if it doesn’t work out.
368 00:33:57.360 ⇒ 00:34:12.770 Greg Stoutenburg: But I think, yeah, I mean, I think for some things, it’s just, like, the best approach is sort of that principle thing I was trying to articulate, right? Like, who’s this for? What can they really do? And then from there… from there, honestly, I think everything’s an experiment. There’s some best practices, there’s things that…
369 00:34:12.830 ⇒ 00:34:32.560 Greg Stoutenburg: it seems everybody is doing. There are times where it’s good to imitate, right? Like, Netflix is really successful, so if you can imitate their onboarding, that’s a reasonable thing to do, because probably they paid a whole bunch of researchers and designers a whole bunch of money to come up with theirs, so, like, if you imitate it, you kind of just get to use their IP. Other than that, everything’s just an experiment, so…
370 00:34:32.560 ⇒ 00:34:33.610 Caitlyn Vaughn: Yeah, yeah.
371 00:34:33.610 ⇒ 00:34:34.210 Greg Stoutenburg: Yep.
372 00:34:34.639 ⇒ 00:34:37.329 Caitlyn Vaughn: Yeah, I’m, like, fine with being wrong, too, like, I just have to.
373 00:34:37.330 ⇒ 00:34:37.690 Greg Stoutenburg: Yep.
374 00:34:37.690 ⇒ 00:34:43.129 Caitlyn Vaughn: kind of opinion, right? And we’re basically setting everything up so we can figure out if we’re right or wrong.
375 00:34:43.139 ⇒ 00:34:52.689 Greg Stoutenburg: Yep, and then we do this post hoc work, and that goes live, and you’re able to see if it looks like it’s not going the way that you think it should, we find where the drop-offs are, and fix them, and… Yeah. Yeah.
376 00:34:53.130 ⇒ 00:34:54.899 Caitlyn Vaughn: Cool. Alright, I’m feeling good about this.
377 00:34:54.909 ⇒ 00:35:05.989 Greg Stoutenburg: Yeah, good, yeah. Yeah, happy to talk more about it, happy to, happy to go deeper even, and, and, you know, like, make recommendations, like, you know, put this here, or allow this, you know, we can do those things as well.
378 00:35:06.540 ⇒ 00:35:10.860 Caitlyn Vaughn: Well, I’m gonna work on this flow, I’m gonna send it to you. Cool.
379 00:35:11.140 ⇒ 00:35:14.879 Greg Stoutenburg: Sounds good. Okay, alright. Thanks, Kayla. Thank you, good to see you. See ya. Bye.