Meeting Title: Brainforge x Amber Lin One-Year Review Date: 2026-03-05 Meeting participants: Uttam Kumaran, Amber Lin
WEBVTT
1 00:00:10.630 ⇒ 00:00:11.700 Amber Lin: Hi there!
2 00:00:20.490 ⇒ 00:00:21.460 Uttam Kumaran: Hello!
3 00:00:21.730 ⇒ 00:00:23.059 Amber Lin: Hi, can you hear me?
4 00:00:23.060 ⇒ 00:00:24.490 Uttam Kumaran: Yes, can you hear me?
5 00:00:24.490 ⇒ 00:00:25.220 Amber Lin: Yeah, I can hear you.
6 00:00:25.740 ⇒ 00:00:26.600 Uttam Kumaran: My video.
7 00:00:28.180 ⇒ 00:00:33.769 Amber Lin: Cool. Wait, Robert’s visiting you, right? Are you both in Austin? Oh, cool.
8 00:00:34.060 ⇒ 00:00:38.409 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, so we have a… we’re doing a little event in, like, an hour.
9 00:00:38.790 ⇒ 00:00:39.960 Amber Lin: Awesome!
10 00:00:39.960 ⇒ 00:00:41.100 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, yeah.
11 00:00:41.100 ⇒ 00:00:44.230 Amber Lin: Exciting. Wait, let me switch to my computer.
12 00:00:44.230 ⇒ 00:00:48.090 Uttam Kumaran: Okay, don’t worry, I can turn my video off, I thought I’d say hi, it’s been a while since I feel like we.
13 00:00:48.090 ⇒ 00:00:52.899 Amber Lin: Yeah, I know, I know, because I’ve been mainly talking to Robert, I just haven’t seen you.
14 00:00:52.920 ⇒ 00:00:54.220 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, yeah.
15 00:00:56.520 ⇒ 00:01:00.199 Amber Lin: Cool, let me switch it over.
16 00:01:01.340 ⇒ 00:01:05.019 Amber Lin: Well, today I just mainly want to talk about… it’s been…
17 00:01:05.220 ⇒ 00:01:09.739 Amber Lin: a year since I’ve been here. Yes. Yeah.
18 00:01:10.070 ⇒ 00:01:13.129 Uttam Kumaran: I have some… I have some stuff to share, too, so I think it’ll be great.
19 00:01:17.770 ⇒ 00:01:18.420 Amber Lin: Cool.
20 00:01:18.710 ⇒ 00:01:20.050 Amber Lin: How’s this?
21 00:01:20.260 ⇒ 00:01:20.880 Amber Lin: Awesome.
22 00:01:20.880 ⇒ 00:01:21.600 Uttam Kumaran: Great.
23 00:01:23.420 ⇒ 00:01:24.200 Amber Lin: Yeah, it’s true.
24 00:01:24.710 ⇒ 00:01:38.469 Amber Lin: I talked to Robert a little bit earlier this week about how it’s been a year, and this year, I were like, oh wow, it’s been… it’s been a year, because we felt like we’ve done a lot more stuff in this year.
25 00:01:38.470 ⇒ 00:01:54.789 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, for me, for me, this is now… I’m going on year two and a half of that same feeling. It’s, like, insane, but I, like, I mean, you crushed it. Like, I feel like you’ve dealt with how many
26 00:01:55.100 ⇒ 00:02:00.459 Uttam Kumaran: Like, think about how many iterations of the business we’ve gone through just in your time here.
27 00:02:00.960 ⇒ 00:02:07.459 Uttam Kumaran: I think… every time, and, like, I let you qualify, but we’ve done our best
28 00:02:08.210 ⇒ 00:02:13.299 Uttam Kumaran: To put the company in the best spot, to put our clients in the best spot, and then to put our teams
29 00:02:13.530 ⇒ 00:02:15.420 Uttam Kumaran: In the best spot, and like…
30 00:02:15.970 ⇒ 00:02:20.730 Uttam Kumaran: Try to really, like, be critical on, like, how we do that.
31 00:02:20.970 ⇒ 00:02:24.909 Uttam Kumaran: You know, I always find it funny, because I think this is the…
32 00:02:25.300 ⇒ 00:02:39.599 Uttam Kumaran: like, apart from some of your internships and other experiences, I feel like this is the true, like, first company, where you spend, like, probably this much time. So, it’s hard sometimes, because I’m like, I want… I kind of would… it would be interesting for you to go to, like, a real corporate place.
33 00:02:39.710 ⇒ 00:02:40.930 Uttam Kumaran: And C,
34 00:02:41.200 ⇒ 00:02:57.210 Uttam Kumaran: and then compare, and then hopefully your reaction is like, wow, it’s so much better over there. But that’s also, like, it’s part of the challenge is, like, I think we have a lot of people whose this is their first job, or first, like, big job in engineering, or… or consulting, or development.
35 00:02:57.640 ⇒ 00:03:04.599 Uttam Kumaran: But, like, you know, again, I think we’ve… I’ve always woken up and been like, okay, how do we just put the people in the right…
36 00:03:04.880 ⇒ 00:03:11.459 Uttam Kumaran: in the right spot while we grow, but I think you’ve crushed it. I think you’ve done a great job, so…
37 00:03:11.460 ⇒ 00:03:18.879 Amber Lin: I appreciate it. I really think it’s been… it’s been quite a journey. It’s… it’s a lot of changes, and working
38 00:03:19.160 ⇒ 00:03:21.700 Amber Lin: For a full year,
39 00:03:22.010 ⇒ 00:03:33.189 Amber Lin: brought a lot of changes, not only to how I… how I deal with work, but also how I deal with things in my personal life, because working with people, working on hard things that we’ve not done before.
40 00:03:33.770 ⇒ 00:03:37.069 Amber Lin: It’s challenging and a good learning experience, so…
41 00:03:37.520 ⇒ 00:03:40.509 Amber Lin: I think this year went really well for me.
42 00:03:40.610 ⇒ 00:03:48.950 Amber Lin: Like, we started… we started in the more PM role, and then as the company developed, we worked on the company, we were… and then we worked…
43 00:03:49.070 ⇒ 00:03:57.450 Amber Lin: And then I transitioned to work more on the clients, which… it’s a welcome transition, because I feel like, for me, that’s,
44 00:03:58.030 ⇒ 00:04:14.589 Amber Lin: at this stage, more fulfilling, more rewarding work, and more learning insights for me, and I’m really glad to see, like, oh, we’re… we’re also advancing on the AI side, so I feel like it’s gone full circles, like, oh, right now, I’m back to…
45 00:04:14.590 ⇒ 00:04:19.690 Amber Lin: Looking at what we can do with the different tools, and looking at what we can automate.
46 00:04:19.690 ⇒ 00:04:27.469 Amber Lin: So it’s… it’s fun to see us, go so far. It’s very different than when we first started.
47 00:04:27.890 ⇒ 00:04:33.009 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, no, I agree. I think the way you put it is great to hear, like…
48 00:04:33.920 ⇒ 00:04:38.290 Uttam Kumaran: it’s always tough in my spa, as you know, it’s like, I’m trying to…
49 00:04:38.470 ⇒ 00:04:42.600 Uttam Kumaran: make sure the business works, I’m trying to make sure clients are happy, and I want to make sure
50 00:04:42.940 ⇒ 00:04:49.290 Uttam Kumaran: it’s like, all those three stakeholders are really important to me, you know? And…
51 00:04:49.410 ⇒ 00:04:53.459 Uttam Kumaran: in many ways, I can… I try to make the jigsaw work.
52 00:04:53.810 ⇒ 00:04:55.840 Uttam Kumaran: Oftentimes, though, we are like.
53 00:04:56.240 ⇒ 00:05:06.309 Uttam Kumaran: we get the jigsaw to work, and then the map changes, and then I’m like, okay, now’s a new puzzle. We now have 15 clients. We now have, like, 20-some-odd people.
54 00:05:06.700 ⇒ 00:05:10.510 Uttam Kumaran: We’re trying to keep growing,
55 00:05:10.780 ⇒ 00:05:14.009 Uttam Kumaran: And so, like, just the, like, the floor under you changes a lot.
56 00:05:14.230 ⇒ 00:05:31.309 Uttam Kumaran: So for me, though, like, the one thing that I’ve always stressed, and I think as we’ve grown, more partners are working with us. Like, you’ve noticed, like, we started working with Alex originally, then now Clarence is helping with some stuff. A lot of different partners have come in. The number one thing they always
57 00:05:31.380 ⇒ 00:05:40.540 Uttam Kumaran: say, which I… when I always bring them in, I said, our team is amazing, and I think you’re gonna see that we’ve nurtured a group of people that is
58 00:05:40.700 ⇒ 00:05:54.939 Uttam Kumaran: both skeptical, but, like, really passionate, and, like, are all sponges, meaning, like, they can take feedback really well, and everybody in the company is self-reflective, to some degree, you know? And…
59 00:05:55.200 ⇒ 00:06:05.090 Uttam Kumaran: That’s been the sentiment from everybody, from our partners, to, like, part-time people, to, like, anyone that works with… or to even clients, they’re like.
60 00:06:06.020 ⇒ 00:06:13.839 Uttam Kumaran: wow, you guys are great, and that’s not very common. Like, most companies are on the back foot all the time, like, it’s rare.
61 00:06:14.660 ⇒ 00:06:18.039 Uttam Kumaran: to… I feel always, like.
62 00:06:18.490 ⇒ 00:06:25.080 Uttam Kumaran: It’s… it’s rare to get complimented, and that… to show… see that we’re in the right direction. And we’ve done it with…
63 00:06:26.260 ⇒ 00:06:29.000 Uttam Kumaran: Like, extreme amount of hard work, and we haven’t, like.
64 00:06:29.130 ⇒ 00:06:40.609 Uttam Kumaran: it’s not like we raised a bunch of money and, like, bought a bunch… got a bunch of, like, super senior people. It’s all people we’ve nurtured and grown, and I feel, like, super proud about that. And so.
65 00:06:40.610 ⇒ 00:06:56.109 Amber Lin: Yeah, and when I interview people, that’s the main thing that I touch upon, especially when I do first rounds, is, okay, like, who is this… who is this person like? And especially when I feel like the more people we hire and the more people.
66 00:06:56.110 ⇒ 00:07:00.980 Amber Lin: that we retain. I feel like we’ve been able to maintain a…
67 00:07:01.050 ⇒ 00:07:12.769 Amber Lin: a group of people and a certain culture. I don’t think I’ve really felt that at other places I’ve worked at, so, how we work and who the people are
68 00:07:12.770 ⇒ 00:07:27.080 Amber Lin: that… that we select, I think, is very important. So, actually, that’s the two main… one of the two main things that I really like about us is how, starting from you and Robert, how we select the people, and how…
69 00:07:28.760 ⇒ 00:07:44.950 Amber Lin: we maintain that type of culture, I think, especially for openness, transparency, and you said self-reflection. I think our people have those type of qualities, which is not always what you find, in the working space, or just in people in general.
70 00:07:45.120 ⇒ 00:07:50.450 Amber Lin: So I really like that. And another thing is what I was,
71 00:07:50.590 ⇒ 00:07:58.779 Amber Lin: what I was talking about in the message I sent to you, I think that the work that we’re doing on the AI side and on continuing to improve
72 00:07:58.920 ⇒ 00:08:05.239 Amber Lin: Not just that it’s, oh, this is the cutting edge work that we have to keep up, but that
73 00:08:05.740 ⇒ 00:08:14.489 Amber Lin: even if it’s less relevant or not directly related to business, I think it’s very impressive that we can keep doing those things.
74 00:08:14.490 ⇒ 00:08:15.490 Uttam Kumaran: What do you mean?
75 00:08:15.490 ⇒ 00:08:30.019 Amber Lin: On the AI side, improving our workflows, establishing new processes, they don’t directly… they’re not required on clients, and I think having the resilience to keep doing them is…
76 00:08:30.020 ⇒ 00:08:30.770 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
77 00:08:30.770 ⇒ 00:08:33.250 Amber Lin: It’s very hard, because you find time to do it.
78 00:08:33.250 ⇒ 00:08:36.140 Uttam Kumaran: Well, because you know it didn’t work for a long time, we tried.
79 00:08:36.140 ⇒ 00:08:36.659 Amber Lin: Yeah.
80 00:08:36.669 ⇒ 00:08:38.239 Uttam Kumaran: Right, for a long time.
81 00:08:38.349 ⇒ 00:08:49.249 Uttam Kumaran: But to even hear you feel like you’re seeing it now working means it was all worth it. Because I couldn’t… we couldn’t have done this without failing.
82 00:08:49.439 ⇒ 00:08:50.939 Uttam Kumaran: A bunch of times.
83 00:08:51.079 ⇒ 00:08:59.039 Uttam Kumaran: And, I think we’ve arrived at something that a lot of people now from all parts of the business are like.
84 00:08:59.319 ⇒ 00:09:14.339 Uttam Kumaran: oh, damn, this thing’s actually, like, super helpful. And… but again, it’s all, for me, all is about empowering people. Like, you can tell we’ve not done anything where I’m like, oh, this is gonna, like, remove these people, or this is, like…
85 00:09:14.459 ⇒ 00:09:19.849 Uttam Kumaran: like, oh, we can start just giving AI to customers, like, that’s not… that’s, like, totally losing the plot.
86 00:09:20.259 ⇒ 00:09:23.209 Uttam Kumaran: Like, our people, that is, like, our product.
87 00:09:23.509 ⇒ 00:09:33.049 Uttam Kumaran: It’s the fact that customers, and you know just as well, like, now that you’ve seen a couple of these clients, they don’t ask us, like, many new things, they just, like, are… it’s, like, trust.
88 00:09:33.329 ⇒ 00:09:36.449 Uttam Kumaran: it’s the fact that, like, we care, and so how do I, like…
89 00:09:36.899 ⇒ 00:09:52.239 Uttam Kumaran: and that our people have personality, and that they go out of their way, and, like, that needs to be maximized, right? Which means, like, less time in linear, less time, like, scrambling for meetings, and frankly, like, yes, I think we will, over time.
90 00:09:52.369 ⇒ 00:09:59.089 Uttam Kumaran: Be ahead of the industry in terms of, like, the number of employees for the size of our company.
91 00:09:59.259 ⇒ 00:10:14.399 Uttam Kumaran: But that’s not like… it’s like, it’s almost like, oh, so I should, like, I don’t feel at fault for not hiring the next person. I’m like, let’s keep our great people, let’s make them all more amazing, and keep the money for them, and try to offer more incentives.
92 00:10:14.599 ⇒ 00:10:23.359 Uttam Kumaran: Versus, like, growing 10X, and then 10x complexity, 10x people. Like, if anything, I think our teams are tighter.
93 00:10:23.579 ⇒ 00:10:32.719 Uttam Kumaran: they work better, and I’m trying to give people in technology a place where they can stay for a while, which is not very… it’s not… it’s not really the case, typically, you know?
94 00:10:33.360 ⇒ 00:10:50.289 Amber Lin: Yeah, and I know you’re meeting up with Robert to sort of talk about the future, but as we come up on the one-year mark, I wanted to ask you of where you see the companies is going, at least for maybe the next year, because I don’t know where it’ll be in 3 or 5 years.
95 00:10:50.290 ⇒ 00:11:03.420 Uttam Kumaran: Okay, yeah. I love also… you know, I love talking to you, because your questions are always so formal, and then I get… I can… I’m able to give very, like, informal… I’m able to give very unprofessional, informal answers.
96 00:11:04.020 ⇒ 00:11:05.690 Uttam Kumaran: like, I think…
97 00:11:05.980 ⇒ 00:11:12.449 Uttam Kumaran: I’ve never, as you mentioned, like, I’ve never relented on trying to use AI in our business.
98 00:11:13.130 ⇒ 00:11:16.110 Uttam Kumaran: And I think we’re finally…
99 00:11:16.440 ⇒ 00:11:22.390 Uttam Kumaran: Like, at a point where all of our investments in that, whether it’s time or energy.
100 00:11:22.810 ⇒ 00:11:25.849 Uttam Kumaran: It’s starting to pay off in the system that we have today.
101 00:11:25.990 ⇒ 00:11:29.810 Uttam Kumaran: That doesn’t mean that we won’t continue to invest there, but…
102 00:11:29.940 ⇒ 00:11:38.979 Uttam Kumaran: Somehow, the machine itself is starting to turn, and people are using it and contributing back to it, when, for the most part, it was mostly me trying to just, like.
103 00:11:39.270 ⇒ 00:11:42.979 Uttam Kumaran: get an 8N going, and get random things, and so…
104 00:11:43.660 ⇒ 00:11:47.400 Uttam Kumaran: That, I’m, like, super, super… continue to be super bullish on.
105 00:11:47.750 ⇒ 00:11:57.229 Uttam Kumaran: I think in terms of this year and next year, we also now, I think, have a class of, like, super strong team members that
106 00:11:57.470 ⇒ 00:12:01.389 Uttam Kumaran: I can rely on more than ever. Meaning, like.
107 00:12:02.020 ⇒ 00:12:08.179 Uttam Kumaran: that I can rely on more than ever, and in part, that means the business is able to operate without me as a bottleneck.
108 00:12:08.320 ⇒ 00:12:18.200 Uttam Kumaran: like, you know how it was last year, where I’m the bottleneck for everything, and I… and I think hopefully you can see that we’ve systematically attacked that problem by…
109 00:12:18.340 ⇒ 00:12:26.410 Uttam Kumaran: by people, by process, by tools, right? We’ve thrown everything to basically
110 00:12:26.590 ⇒ 00:12:38.739 Uttam Kumaran: Free people to do the thing they need to do, and then also free me to go get us the next best deal, get us the next most important people, and think about, like, okay, how do we make this place an awesome place to work?
111 00:12:38.940 ⇒ 00:12:49.450 Uttam Kumaran: And so, it’s continuing a lot of the same thing. I think second is, like, we are… we want to continue to make client service less hectic.
112 00:12:49.630 ⇒ 00:12:51.309 Uttam Kumaran: It can be a very hectic.
113 00:12:52.090 ⇒ 00:13:01.529 Uttam Kumaran: Business model, because we, in turn, almost have, like… we have all these other clients who have, like, subjective thoughts on how to do things, when for us, we’re, like.
114 00:13:01.990 ⇒ 00:13:12.959 Uttam Kumaran: oh, it’s… all you wanted was a query on something, I can get you that, right? But there’s all this stuff in between. So, how do I leverage AI and more playbooks to make it much more predictable?
115 00:13:13.210 ⇒ 00:13:16.760 Uttam Kumaran: But how do we also go after clients who value our work and want to pay us?
116 00:13:16.860 ⇒ 00:13:19.909 Uttam Kumaran: for that. And so that way, we can staff appropriately.
117 00:13:20.120 ⇒ 00:13:37.720 Uttam Kumaran: I can upskill and train people appropriately. And so that’s, I think, a lot of it. I think we’re… we… our business, as you can tell, is now split into, like, 3 core services, right? We have, like, our data engineering, data modeling, we have strategy, analytics, and we have our AI.
118 00:13:38.080 ⇒ 00:13:45.130 Uttam Kumaran: I think that’s still gonna continue to be, like, the route we go. I think you will just see the AI piece
119 00:13:45.330 ⇒ 00:13:48.499 Uttam Kumaran: get bigger and bigger as a standalone service, meaning
120 00:13:48.750 ⇒ 00:13:52.980 Uttam Kumaran: We internally built all these systems for ourselves that
121 00:13:53.280 ⇒ 00:14:08.660 Uttam Kumaran: we are… I would say we’re probably 6 months to a year ahead of the industry, in terms of what people are buying. So people now are trying to buy what we’ve had for, like, 8 months, which is, like, our, like, context layer, transcripts in a platform on a website. That’s what people are asking us to build them.
122 00:14:08.840 ⇒ 00:14:24.139 Uttam Kumaran: Then they will ask us to build, kind of like what exists now, like, everybody’s on a cursor or some similar thing, where they’re asking a bunch of questions, and then eventually they’ll be like, I want to build a platform where I can… where, like, there’ll be an Ambery equivalent at these companies that’s like, I want to build skills.
123 00:14:24.480 ⇒ 00:14:29.579 Uttam Kumaran: how do I enable my company to allow people to build skills? But we are ahead of the curve.
124 00:14:29.940 ⇒ 00:14:48.519 Uttam Kumaran: But the lovely thing about our business is where we can dog… this concept called dogfooding, where you basically, like, we make it, we try it, and then we refine it, and then we go sell it. And it’s nice, because we’re the first customer. And so I think you’re gonna see us lean more into the AI world because of how much it’s working for us.
125 00:14:48.880 ⇒ 00:14:54.059 Uttam Kumaran: And we’re seeing the demand. It’s not like we weren’t selling the AI stuff before.
126 00:14:54.390 ⇒ 00:14:58.680 Uttam Kumaran: I just think people didn’t get it until… Recently.
127 00:14:59.030 ⇒ 00:15:13.900 Uttam Kumaran: And so, in two ways, one, we’re seeing net new clients, net new leads ask us about AI. We are also seeing existing clients ask us about AI, existing data clients. Like, Robert just pitched an AI, thing to Eden.
128 00:15:14.080 ⇒ 00:15:21.580 Uttam Kumaran: We’re… we’re talking to several large clients about just AI work. So you’re gonna see that service ramp,
129 00:15:22.140 ⇒ 00:15:28.349 Uttam Kumaran: And so, like, that’s more of, like, the… the business model continues to be monetizing expertise.
130 00:15:28.950 ⇒ 00:15:36.000 Uttam Kumaran: I think, like, we’re not… we’re not building product, right? So, that’s our business model. I think what you’re gonna see, though, is, like.
131 00:15:37.120 ⇒ 00:15:40.320 Uttam Kumaran: I’m gonna continue to challenge like…
132 00:15:40.520 ⇒ 00:15:43.150 Uttam Kumaran: How our people are efficient with their time.
133 00:15:43.250 ⇒ 00:15:47.670 Uttam Kumaran: I’m gonna continue to try to get us to do more complex things for clients.
134 00:15:47.820 ⇒ 00:15:50.969 Uttam Kumaran: And we’re gonna continue to, like, raise the bar on talent.
135 00:15:51.100 ⇒ 00:15:55.680 Uttam Kumaran: Like, I want to hire people that Amber is like, damn, that person’s really good.
136 00:15:56.440 ⇒ 00:15:57.290 Uttam Kumaran: You know?
137 00:15:57.510 ⇒ 00:15:58.270 Amber Lin: Yeah.
138 00:15:58.520 ⇒ 00:16:03.779 Amber Lin: Like, that’s how I have to think. So that’s what I’m… that’s what I continue to think about, you know, for this year.
139 00:16:03.980 ⇒ 00:16:12.169 Amber Lin: That’s kind of what I saw as well, and I was thinking about how my role would evolve, because right now, within…
140 00:16:12.170 ⇒ 00:16:26.939 Amber Lin: strategy within analytics. I would say I’m more junior, I know how to use AI, but I’m starting to learn the technical details, but I’m only starting to learn about, okay, marketing analytics, what is it about? I’ll learn a bit more about
141 00:16:26.940 ⇒ 00:16:40.419 Amber Lin: Yeah, so as you talk more about, okay, we’re still monetizing expertise, but we want to grow the AI stuff, I’m trying to vision how my role would…
142 00:16:40.420 ⇒ 00:16:40.840 Uttam Kumaran: Sure.
143 00:16:40.840 ⇒ 00:16:47.409 Amber Lin: would progress, within the company of how you see my role evolving over the next year?
144 00:16:47.620 ⇒ 00:16:51.839 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, so… I would say, again, this is where, like.
145 00:16:51.970 ⇒ 00:16:59.050 Uttam Kumaran: I’m… as you know, I’m… I’m not, I’m not often impressed by the way consulting companies have operated in the past.
146 00:16:59.180 ⇒ 00:17:03.390 Uttam Kumaran: Which is why we sort of did a lot of the PMO stuff, and then we’re like.
147 00:17:04.050 ⇒ 00:17:12.399 Uttam Kumaran: I think our people are smart enough to do this themselves, right? So we’re reaching some of that. So I think we’re always gonna challenge the way it gets done, but
148 00:17:12.520 ⇒ 00:17:24.149 Uttam Kumaran: the data work, strategy work is not going anywhere. The AI work is just going to become one of those, where people want us to build LLM systems, AI systems, ANDI-style systems.
149 00:17:24.839 ⇒ 00:17:42.630 Uttam Kumaran: So there’s one piece in that, like, there… there… we’re gonna hire more people in order to do that. Everybody in the company is free to go do anything. Like, if you think about, again, if you’re like, hey, I want to go learn more data engineering, you can go kind of go do that. If you’re like, I want to kind of try to learn more about building AI systems.
150 00:17:42.770 ⇒ 00:17:54.280 Uttam Kumaran: Or if you’re like, hey, I just want to do my role and do it AI-enabled, that’s also totally possible. I think you’re right in that, like, another way to grow is to accumulate
151 00:17:54.380 ⇒ 00:17:56.050 Uttam Kumaran: domain expertise.
152 00:17:56.220 ⇒ 00:18:01.379 Uttam Kumaran: and potentially be, like, the domain expert. If you’re like, hey, I love e-commerce.
153 00:18:02.110 ⇒ 00:18:08.190 Uttam Kumaran: I want to become the domain expert for e-commerce strategy, and I want to go deep there. That’s an option too.
154 00:18:08.420 ⇒ 00:18:10.850 Uttam Kumaran: Another option, if you’re like, hey, actually.
155 00:18:11.290 ⇒ 00:18:15.190 Uttam Kumaran: I want to, like, manage. I love teaching people.
156 00:18:15.400 ⇒ 00:18:25.150 Uttam Kumaran: that’s another option. So you can see I’m, like, giving you, like, there’s various plays. And so, the one thing I can guarantee for you is that all those plays are first
157 00:18:25.930 ⇒ 00:18:28.490 Uttam Kumaran: Open to the people that are at the company.
158 00:18:28.610 ⇒ 00:18:33.400 Uttam Kumaran: Like, I do not… Like, and no, no, like, no,
159 00:18:33.880 ⇒ 00:18:48.719 Uttam Kumaran: no, no ill will to the people we are recruiting, I don’t want to hire. Like, I would like to give all the opportunity to the people that exist, like, you know, even you say, like, things like junior or whatever, like, dude, you’ve done so many jobs here that, like.
160 00:18:48.890 ⇒ 00:18:50.059 Uttam Kumaran: I think, like.
161 00:18:50.420 ⇒ 00:19:08.140 Uttam Kumaran: And so that just shows that you’ll be able to get the next one. But this is where, like, I think I want to try to make clear, like, where the opportunities are going to be, but also understand, like, what your goal is, too. Like, if you’re like, hey, I valued this last 3 to 6 months because I was able to go deep.
162 00:19:08.300 ⇒ 00:19:09.350 Uttam Kumaran: on
163 00:19:09.710 ⇒ 00:19:29.370 Uttam Kumaran: like, data analytics and strategy, and I want to do that, but I also want to find a way to go deeper on just one domain. Like, I don’t like working somewhere here in, like, marketing, somewhere here in finance, like, I want to go deep on one. That’s solely an option. If you’re like, actually, I’m more interested in, like.
164 00:19:29.990 ⇒ 00:19:36.249 Uttam Kumaran: and purely how I can build an AI-native, like, analytics team.
165 00:19:37.140 ⇒ 00:19:45.900 Uttam Kumaran: right, then more of the thing that you’re going after is like, okay, continue to do what you’re doing, but layer on AI and kind of direct
166 00:19:46.080 ⇒ 00:20:00.850 Uttam Kumaran: for example, if you saw any of the PRs I built, I’m gonna kind of build a foundation for every role. But it’s gonna be up to those roles to then take it one step further, like, I’m gonna build the basic skills, you’re gonna say, hey, this is working, but there’s this little issue, I’m gonna say, cool, you can go fix that.
167 00:20:01.030 ⇒ 00:20:05.629 Uttam Kumaran: So then you could say, actually, I want to go own how my strategy team uses AI.
168 00:20:05.920 ⇒ 00:20:09.349 Uttam Kumaran: Right? I think that’s a logical place as well.
169 00:20:10.200 ⇒ 00:20:22.800 Uttam Kumaran: these just aren’t formalized very well. I think the next formalization… there’s two things that I have to do going into next quarter, is one, make necessary modifications to the Forging the Future doc, which is, like.
170 00:20:22.910 ⇒ 00:20:31.349 Uttam Kumaran: changes to the CSO EPSL structure. Like, are there changes? Then my second job is to think about what is next.
171 00:20:31.530 ⇒ 00:20:32.320 Uttam Kumaran: like…
172 00:20:32.470 ⇒ 00:20:38.009 Uttam Kumaran: if you were to do those rolls and move up, like, what are the options? Like, what does up look like?
173 00:20:38.950 ⇒ 00:20:42.860 Uttam Kumaran: So I said a bunch of things there, like, so that’s kind of, like, how I’m…
174 00:20:43.520 ⇒ 00:20:44.730 Uttam Kumaran: I’m thinking about it.
175 00:20:45.590 ⇒ 00:21:00.430 Amber Lin: I see, yeah. When I was thinking about that, it is the either go more deep into the data analysis side, or look at AI enabling, because I have major FOMO, and I feel like that’s…
176 00:21:00.430 ⇒ 00:21:02.990 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, why do you feel… why do you feel FOMO?
177 00:21:02.990 ⇒ 00:21:07.400 Amber Lin: Because this is something that, because I, I think…
178 00:21:07.550 ⇒ 00:21:13.620 Amber Lin: that’s the way things should develop. I feel FOMO because in the fit side…
179 00:21:13.620 ⇒ 00:21:16.810 Uttam Kumaran: from people around you, or, like, the news, or, like, what is it?
180 00:21:17.550 ⇒ 00:21:19.140 Uttam Kumaran: I wish more people in the company feel
181 00:21:19.470 ⇒ 00:21:24.010 Uttam Kumaran: I feel like sometimes I’m, like, sending stuff, nobody’s reading anything around here.
182 00:21:24.010 ⇒ 00:21:24.860 Amber Lin: I see.
183 00:21:24.860 ⇒ 00:21:25.260 Uttam Kumaran: Pretty close.
184 00:21:25.260 ⇒ 00:21:44.270 Amber Lin: This is because I do read the stuff that we send, and, like, the analysis I do, once I did it two, three times, like, right now, what I’m doing for AMBLE is what we did for Eden, and I was able to do that… with the data, I was able to
185 00:21:44.670 ⇒ 00:21:56.009 Amber Lin: essentially build the Omni report in, like, half of it in the afternoon. I was able to do that, and I know I didn’t take too many steps. I needed…
186 00:21:56.010 ⇒ 00:21:58.369 Uttam Kumaran: Getting AI-pilled is what they’re calling it right now.
187 00:21:58.370 ⇒ 00:21:59.909 Amber Lin: Oh, that’s so funny.
188 00:22:02.660 ⇒ 00:22:07.169 Uttam Kumaran: But, like, there’s typically two routes, like, does that make you, like…
189 00:22:07.650 ⇒ 00:22:15.399 Uttam Kumaran: do you feel FOMO in that you’re like, oh my god, like, my career is at risk, so I need to get on the AI team so that, like.
190 00:22:15.830 ⇒ 00:22:16.440 Uttam Kumaran: It’s so…
191 00:22:16.440 ⇒ 00:22:26.329 Amber Lin: it’s more of… I think I feel this way because, one, I think I want to get it automated, that’s one, but two, the fear comes from
192 00:22:26.470 ⇒ 00:22:30.030 Amber Lin: That’s as much, like, my cup is right here.
193 00:22:30.200 ⇒ 00:22:36.919 Amber Lin: I’m trying to automate all I have in this cup. Once I automate it, what am I going to do? Because I want.
194 00:22:36.920 ⇒ 00:22:38.519 Uttam Kumaran: I don’t think there’s more work to do, right?
195 00:22:38.520 ⇒ 00:22:40.840 Amber Lin: There, there is, there is, it’s just, I have.
196 00:22:40.840 ⇒ 00:22:42.340 Uttam Kumaran: I see what you mean, I see what you mean.
197 00:22:42.340 ⇒ 00:22:50.219 Amber Lin: My experience hasn’t… once I automate it, it will have caught up with everything I know, because I’ve only worked analysis.
198 00:22:50.220 ⇒ 00:22:57.300 Uttam Kumaran: Did you talk to someone, like, this past week about some, like, AI… did you, like, have drinks and were like, dude, AI’s gonna take my whole job? Like, what?
199 00:22:57.300 ⇒ 00:23:15.119 Amber Lin: No, I… I just… well, I talked to Brile. We talked about the skills and stuff, and I was planning on how… I was talking with Cursor on how to make these… an analysis I’ve done into skills, and I was like, I feel like all of these can be…
200 00:23:15.180 ⇒ 00:23:19.359 Amber Lin: done, and once I do, I don’t really want to…
201 00:23:19.780 ⇒ 00:23:21.180 Uttam Kumaran: Do them, I can do them.
202 00:23:21.180 ⇒ 00:23:31.399 Amber Lin: do them myself. If I were to make them into repeatable workflows, I want somebody else to be able to do them, somebody new to be able to… Okay, so then that’s the answer.
203 00:23:31.780 ⇒ 00:23:34.770 Amber Lin: And then I want to learn more stuff. Yeah.
204 00:23:34.770 ⇒ 00:23:36.219 Uttam Kumaran: So, like, let me give you another…
205 00:23:36.750 ⇒ 00:23:40.779 Uttam Kumaran: So let me give you one option. What you’re seeing with Bryle.
206 00:23:40.910 ⇒ 00:23:51.369 Uttam Kumaran: and I hate to, like, minimize them in this way, is, like, for me, the ultimate, like, science experiment that I’ve been able to run. And you know, I try to try things and see
207 00:23:51.530 ⇒ 00:24:01.440 Uttam Kumaran: So, Brile and his… him being at Brainforge is… was the ultimate science experiment of our system. You know, he has no background in data or AI.
208 00:24:01.570 ⇒ 00:24:04.879 Uttam Kumaran: He was, like, he worked primarily as, like.
209 00:24:04.880 ⇒ 00:24:06.050 Amber Lin: Operations.
210 00:24:06.050 ⇒ 00:24:09.109 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, operations and, like, call center executive assistant.
211 00:24:09.820 ⇒ 00:24:12.149 Uttam Kumaran: the day he joined, I said.
212 00:24:12.930 ⇒ 00:24:17.430 Uttam Kumaran: I wanted to make sure that you start your career at Brainforge in cursor.
213 00:24:17.930 ⇒ 00:24:22.770 Uttam Kumaran: And your instructions for your 90-day plan is in a markdown file.
214 00:24:22.880 ⇒ 00:24:25.550 Uttam Kumaran: what I’m asking you to do is, in a Markdown file.
215 00:24:25.850 ⇒ 00:24:38.409 Uttam Kumaran: And, like, I… I don’t want you to even get a glimpse of what it was like. This is the… this is… and so he was basically born at Brainforge into Cursor.
216 00:24:39.060 ⇒ 00:24:44.630 Uttam Kumaran: he didn’t see a previous world, and guess what? Within 3 days, he was able to draft an SOW,
217 00:24:44.840 ⇒ 00:24:47.929 Uttam Kumaran: Within 6 days, he wrote an entire case study.
218 00:24:48.240 ⇒ 00:24:50.089 Uttam Kumaran: 95% of the way there.
219 00:24:50.090 ⇒ 00:24:50.670 Amber Lin: Wow.
220 00:24:50.670 ⇒ 00:24:55.219 Uttam Kumaran: Guess what? We have SOW instructions in cursor, so I said, hey, go write this.
221 00:24:56.470 ⇒ 00:25:05.150 Uttam Kumaran: And I just was like, let’s see what happens. And then Hannah was like, hey, I need something for a case today. I was like, hey, bro, maybe you can just take this, go learn how we do case studies.
222 00:25:05.490 ⇒ 00:25:17.829 Uttam Kumaran: how we’ve done the previous ones, use cursor, ask cursor. And so, his acceleration into tasks, where he’s had basically zero experience doing in general, or even the Brainforge way.
223 00:25:17.990 ⇒ 00:25:21.500 Uttam Kumaran: I was like, Okay. Like, it’s working.
224 00:25:21.710 ⇒ 00:25:30.220 Uttam Kumaran: Right? That’s the ultimate… because otherwise, I’ve always had conviction that you and other people here are gonna use the tools, and it’s gonna work.
225 00:25:30.470 ⇒ 00:25:33.890 Uttam Kumaran: Maybe you haven’t? I’ve always known that. Like, I’m just, like, waiting.
226 00:25:34.100 ⇒ 00:25:43.590 Uttam Kumaran: because also, everybody’s busy, so I’m not blaming people, but everybody is gonna go through that… this thing that you’re going through, right? And people are gonna call me with the same thing, which is like, oh my god.
227 00:25:44.040 ⇒ 00:25:47.839 Uttam Kumaran: They’re gonna drag it out and be like, if that took me 2 weeks.
228 00:25:47.980 ⇒ 00:25:53.430 Uttam Kumaran: than where this is all going? But this is where it, like, the one thing I want to caveat is
229 00:25:53.930 ⇒ 00:26:00.629 Uttam Kumaran: like… There is so… The entire industry that we’re serving
230 00:26:00.740 ⇒ 00:26:04.799 Uttam Kumaran: And the industry of competitors is so far behind us.
231 00:26:04.970 ⇒ 00:26:07.180 Uttam Kumaran: Nobody is doing this.
232 00:26:07.540 ⇒ 00:26:15.009 Uttam Kumaran: like, what you may see a lot of what’s happening in OpenAI, Claude, and, like, the frontier places.
233 00:26:15.620 ⇒ 00:26:24.979 Uttam Kumaran: that’s the only place it’s happening. This is, like, not happening at EY, Deloitte, Accenture, not happening at Bain, like, they can’t… they’re not operating like this.
234 00:26:25.120 ⇒ 00:26:28.380 Uttam Kumaran: And so, I also want to show you that, like.
235 00:26:29.210 ⇒ 00:26:31.509 Uttam Kumaran: We have a lot of work to do.
236 00:26:32.210 ⇒ 00:26:47.249 Uttam Kumaran: And I… I want to show you that, yes, you may find that, like, oh my god, my job is a collection of cursor skills. Well, it always has been. It’s just the fact that, like, we had to do it. Now you’re more managing tasks.
237 00:26:47.460 ⇒ 00:26:55.289 Uttam Kumaran: But you still have to know that you… that all the tasks that go into it. So, there is value in actually… this is where Bryle lacks
238 00:26:55.630 ⇒ 00:26:59.709 Uttam Kumaran: Actually, the concrete understanding of how to do a thing.
239 00:27:00.060 ⇒ 00:27:16.109 Uttam Kumaran: Right? We’ve given, like, and the human creativity of what it takes to solve a people problem and a communication problem. Like, again, our business is, like, is expertise and trust building and communication, ultimately. Everything we do when I log off the meeting with a client.
240 00:27:16.380 ⇒ 00:27:25.600 Uttam Kumaran: made… that may end up being an Asian, but it didn’t matter anyways, because this is what actually was, like, what we were monetizing. It was the trust.
241 00:27:25.800 ⇒ 00:27:33.599 Uttam Kumaran: That… and that’s why they brought us on, because at some point, they tried to hire somebody, or they tried to do a thing, nobody owned it.
242 00:27:33.760 ⇒ 00:27:37.809 Uttam Kumaran: put, like, Effort towards it, and got it done, and so we come in.
243 00:27:38.010 ⇒ 00:27:53.649 Uttam Kumaran: So, partly, we are in a great business model to actually take advantage of the fact that delivering the work is… as a cost of goods is going down, so that my people can spend more time getting… spending more time with clients and actually building the relationship.
244 00:27:53.790 ⇒ 00:28:03.129 Uttam Kumaran: The second piece is I think a lot of people’s jobs will start to look more like triggering a bunch of skills, or triggering agents to go do things, and then
245 00:28:03.320 ⇒ 00:28:07.349 Uttam Kumaran: Bringing their work together into a presentation where you present to a human being.
246 00:28:07.840 ⇒ 00:28:09.990 Uttam Kumaran: And so there’s no, like, replacing people.
247 00:28:10.370 ⇒ 00:28:19.259 Uttam Kumaran: I think, for your case, you kind of have two options. Either you’re like, oh my god, I can be a 10X analyst. Like.
248 00:28:19.580 ⇒ 00:28:23.610 Uttam Kumaran: if you’re like, hey, U-Tam, you’re about to hire Two more analysts?
249 00:28:24.100 ⇒ 00:28:25.880 Uttam Kumaran: I think I could do their job.
250 00:28:26.440 ⇒ 00:28:28.439 Uttam Kumaran: can I just get 50% more money?
251 00:28:29.650 ⇒ 00:28:35.520 Uttam Kumaran: Right? And I’m like, okay. Like, I would seriously be like, okay, let’s… how do we even frame that, right?
252 00:28:36.010 ⇒ 00:28:46.419 Uttam Kumaran: So there’s a business case to be made for me. Again, when I think about all those stakeholders, right, the client, the business, and the team, I’m like, okay, there is a business case where I was gonna go make these hires.
253 00:28:46.570 ⇒ 00:28:50.430 Uttam Kumaran: We have people now that are able to do 2, 3, 4X
254 00:28:50.570 ⇒ 00:29:00.950 Uttam Kumaran: the amount of work in the same amount of time, maintain happiness and everything. Okay, like, how does that change the way we pay? How does that change goals?
255 00:29:01.210 ⇒ 00:29:08.509 Uttam Kumaran: There’s also the, oh my gosh, I learned how to do it, and all the analysts that we’re about to hire.
256 00:29:09.220 ⇒ 00:29:16.739 Uttam Kumaran: they don’t come… they’re not… nobody is gonna come from an environment where they’re using AI for data analysis, or they were doing ChatGPT on the side.
257 00:29:17.100 ⇒ 00:29:27.560 Uttam Kumaran: Like, no one we’re gonna hire is gonna be like, oh yeah, I had cursor, and I was using skills in my last job. Like, I will pay you, I’ll buy you a beer if, like, we interview someone that’s… that says that.
258 00:29:28.630 ⇒ 00:29:31.230 Uttam Kumaran: And so, then there’s an opportunity to train.
259 00:29:31.570 ⇒ 00:29:39.959 Uttam Kumaran: And so what Bryle is doing, is Bryle is doing that across the entire company, where I’m like, dude, spend 50% of your time calling people.
260 00:29:40.090 ⇒ 00:29:42.200 Uttam Kumaran: And walking through your skills.
261 00:29:42.460 ⇒ 00:29:47.279 Uttam Kumaran: But our business is big, and so there’s no… there’s no depth to that.
262 00:29:47.680 ⇒ 00:29:51.420 Uttam Kumaran: So, now someone is gonna have to be like, how does the data team
263 00:29:52.010 ⇒ 00:29:57.399 Uttam Kumaran: get enabled? How does the AI team get enabled? How does the sales team get enabled? How does ops get enabled?
264 00:29:57.800 ⇒ 00:30:16.300 Uttam Kumaran: And so Bryle is taking what I was doing, which is, like, talking to everybody. Now he’s able to, like, take that off my plate. But every single business unit has such a depth of complexity that we can’t solve, like, all at once. Meaning, every team will eventually have someone who’s, like, the champion and is, like.
265 00:30:16.570 ⇒ 00:30:22.799 Uttam Kumaran: my team needs this skill built, my team needs this agent built, or, like, I need to pull on platform team to help me.
266 00:30:23.370 ⇒ 00:30:28.920 Uttam Kumaran: And so there’s an opportunity for you to be that person for the strategy team, or for any team.
267 00:30:29.220 ⇒ 00:30:44.119 Uttam Kumaran: So there’s, like, the two things. It’s like, either you’re like, oh my god, we built all this stuff, I can now do, like, way more, and I can either, like, go more senior, or, like, just do way more. Or you’re like, actually, I learned it, I realized how hard it was to learn it.
268 00:30:44.490 ⇒ 00:30:46.939 Uttam Kumaran: We’re gonna bring on 3 new people.
269 00:30:47.210 ⇒ 00:30:55.499 Uttam Kumaran: my job is to just get them… like, I instead want to be, like, make sure that I focus on what is the strategy, what is the platform for strategy.
270 00:30:55.760 ⇒ 00:31:01.760 Uttam Kumaran: does our team have, like, skills built for us? Do we have the deck builder? Do I need a platform team to, like.
271 00:31:01.980 ⇒ 00:31:04.559 Uttam Kumaran: Work on building us more little apps.
272 00:31:04.780 ⇒ 00:31:06.370 Uttam Kumaran: Like, there’s also that.
273 00:31:07.060 ⇒ 00:31:09.820 Uttam Kumaran: I… this is what I… I will say, like, I don’t think…
274 00:31:09.970 ⇒ 00:31:15.050 Uttam Kumaran: this is, like, a tomorrow thing, but I do agree with your sentiment in that, like.
275 00:31:15.150 ⇒ 00:31:18.330 Uttam Kumaran: you’ve recognized what I think I’ve known
276 00:31:18.480 ⇒ 00:31:20.279 Uttam Kumaran: Is that that’s where it’s heading.
277 00:31:21.420 ⇒ 00:31:23.289 Uttam Kumaran: And so you kind of have a choice.
278 00:31:23.550 ⇒ 00:31:24.970 Uttam Kumaran: Right?
279 00:31:25.630 ⇒ 00:31:37.229 Uttam Kumaran: in that, do you want to just learn more, like, do you want to be like, I can do more analyst work? Do you want to be like, actually, I can… now I have the bandwidth to go learn modeling and engineering, so I can do full stack?
280 00:31:37.610 ⇒ 00:31:42.279 Uttam Kumaran: Or you’re like, actually, I want to do enablement, like, I just want to take 30% of my time and, like.
281 00:31:42.500 ⇒ 00:31:45.760 Uttam Kumaran: Build really specific things just for the strategy team.
282 00:31:47.200 ⇒ 00:31:48.570 Uttam Kumaran: It’s all options.
283 00:31:49.600 ⇒ 00:31:50.140 Amber Lin: Garcia.
284 00:31:50.140 ⇒ 00:31:51.249 Uttam Kumaran: What do you think about that?
285 00:31:51.610 ⇒ 00:31:52.940 Amber Lin: Yeah, it’s…
286 00:31:53.790 ⇒ 00:32:12.129 Amber Lin: It’s… it’s very cool. I… I do get very intrigued by what else, or how the full pipeline gets… gets made up, but I think what interests me… I like collaborating with our DEs, so I don’t think I would go in that direction
287 00:32:12.350 ⇒ 00:32:23.780 Amber Lin: in the near term. I am going to explore the skills and stuff on the AI side this weekend, so I would have a better answer there.
288 00:32:23.780 ⇒ 00:32:25.280 Uttam Kumaran: You’re not, like, on a timer or anything.
289 00:32:25.280 ⇒ 00:32:29.279 Amber Lin: I know, I know, but I think regardless of what I…
290 00:32:29.490 ⇒ 00:32:43.810 Amber Lin: I end up choosing… part of AI enablement, at least for myself, is definitely something I would be doing. Whether if I spend… if I take out, say, 20% of my time, I say, I’m gonna use this…
291 00:32:43.810 ⇒ 00:32:46.359 Uttam Kumaran: the nuance between those options, which is, like…
292 00:32:46.590 ⇒ 00:32:49.549 Uttam Kumaran: I’m accelerating, I want to take on more.
293 00:32:49.770 ⇒ 00:32:52.990 Uttam Kumaran: Or you’re like, I’m accelerating, I want to teach other people how to accelerate.
294 00:32:52.990 ⇒ 00:32:54.819 Amber Lin: Yeah, so the…
295 00:32:54.820 ⇒ 00:32:56.920 Uttam Kumaran: Everybody’s gonna have a choice around here. Both are open.
296 00:32:56.920 ⇒ 00:32:57.580 Amber Lin: Yeah.
297 00:32:57.580 ⇒ 00:32:58.240 Uttam Kumaran: Right?
298 00:32:58.240 ⇒ 00:33:10.890 Amber Lin: Yeah, the… the… what is it called? The overlap is that I know I will accelerate. It’s more of, do I choose to pick this time and to help other people accelerate?
299 00:33:10.890 ⇒ 00:33:11.999 Uttam Kumaran: I learned how to teach, yeah.
300 00:33:12.000 ⇒ 00:33:28.739 Amber Lin: where I take that 20% and go even deeper and take on even more clients. So, that decision, I think, will come later. I think first I need to figure out… I feel a bit uncaught up on what’s happening on AI, or once I learn what’s happening, enable.
301 00:33:28.740 ⇒ 00:33:29.860 Uttam Kumaran: You’re not that, like…
302 00:33:29.860 ⇒ 00:33:32.020 Amber Lin: I can’t often the last, like…
303 00:33:32.020 ⇒ 00:33:36.320 Uttam Kumaran: All this cursor stuff that we’re seeing is… Skills came out 3 months ago.
304 00:33:37.040 ⇒ 00:33:42.959 Uttam Kumaran: It’s just that we adopted it fast, because we had all the context in one place.
305 00:33:43.230 ⇒ 00:33:46.739 Uttam Kumaran: But you’re gonna see, like, I think I’m probably one afternoon away from
306 00:33:47.110 ⇒ 00:33:51.200 Uttam Kumaran: getting everybody to stop doing Google Slides, like…
307 00:33:51.310 ⇒ 00:34:00.280 Uttam Kumaran: it’s moving that fast, but again, I can’t do it if people don’t adopt. Like, this isn’t, like, a fun weekend project for me. It only matters if people use the thing.
308 00:34:00.600 ⇒ 00:34:05.620 Uttam Kumaran: So that’s why, like, I need… I needed a Bryle, because…
309 00:34:05.730 ⇒ 00:34:09.060 Uttam Kumaran: I’m able to go build the thing, and build the first, like.
310 00:34:09.290 ⇒ 00:34:17.930 Uttam Kumaran: vision of it working, and then be like, B, I’ve built some skills, I need you to systematically go team by team and build skills.
311 00:34:18.110 ⇒ 00:34:26.870 Uttam Kumaran: Fine, and then… but again, he can’t do it without an… he can’t do it without you also giving him love back, and being like, okay, let me try it out.
312 00:34:26.989 ⇒ 00:34:29.950 Uttam Kumaran: Let me, like, use it, things like that, you know? So…
313 00:34:31.560 ⇒ 00:34:35.339 Uttam Kumaran: I don’t know, think about it. So for me, like, really, I think our…
314 00:34:35.620 ⇒ 00:34:38.799 Uttam Kumaran: With that in mind, like, our business is evolving, we’re gonna have
315 00:34:39.760 ⇒ 00:34:43.070 Uttam Kumaran: We’re gonna have sort of, like, delivery enablement platform.
316 00:34:43.460 ⇒ 00:34:46.349 Uttam Kumaran: That everybody in the company is gonna use.
317 00:34:47.889 ⇒ 00:34:48.960 Uttam Kumaran: And…
318 00:34:49.650 ⇒ 00:35:04.900 Uttam Kumaran: again, as soon as I can, I would like to have depth. Like, the delivery team is our largest cost center, and our most impactful, like, the place where, if we were to make automations for, would have a direct impact on our clients.
319 00:35:05.020 ⇒ 00:35:11.169 Uttam Kumaran: So, it’s the number… it’s, like, where a majority of my focus is going in. We’ve also helped op sales.
320 00:35:11.300 ⇒ 00:35:19.059 Uttam Kumaran: Sales is the second. And so both of those teams are the people that, like, I spend all my time thinking about. How do we sell more? How do we deliver more, better, faster?
321 00:35:19.610 ⇒ 00:35:22.450 Uttam Kumaran: But we don’t… I don’t have another, like…
322 00:35:23.070 ⇒ 00:35:29.460 Uttam Kumaran: it’s sort of me and B, and then B now is able to go into teams, but we’re the only two people that are sort of thinking about
323 00:35:30.040 ⇒ 00:35:32.279 Uttam Kumaran: The entire platform, right?
324 00:35:32.470 ⇒ 00:35:37.419 Uttam Kumaran: So that’s why even for AI… for data, I’m gonna deliver everybody in data
325 00:35:38.240 ⇒ 00:35:42.170 Uttam Kumaran: like, beyond just being, like, everybody use cursor, I’m gonna deliver you one step further.
326 00:35:42.720 ⇒ 00:35:44.760 Uttam Kumaran: But for me to go deeper…
327 00:35:45.270 ⇒ 00:35:47.680 Uttam Kumaran: It’s tough. It’s gonna be tough.
328 00:35:48.070 ⇒ 00:35:52.430 Uttam Kumaran: So, like, I will… but again, that’s something that we will have to do.
329 00:35:52.810 ⇒ 00:36:10.949 Uttam Kumaran: Right? And that’s our… ultimately, our ability to go deeper is because we’ve done it so many times, that it’s easy for us to under… define the skill, like, define the automation. Otherwise, if you didn’t do it 100 times, how could you break it down? You’re like, know the perfect skill. You wouldn’t… there’s no… so that is the edge.
330 00:36:11.040 ⇒ 00:36:15.970 Uttam Kumaran: You know, so that’s ultimately why I think we’re in a perfect place, is we ran the business long enough.
331 00:36:16.070 ⇒ 00:36:17.549 Uttam Kumaran: In the old world.
332 00:36:17.730 ⇒ 00:36:22.100 Uttam Kumaran: and then now we’re also able to do the New World, a lot of people are stuck in one or the other.
333 00:36:23.170 ⇒ 00:36:33.339 Uttam Kumaran: they’re, like, just AI, and so they’ve never actually done the thing. They’re just like, oh, we can do it with AI. They have no depth of understanding. Or you have all these boomer companies who…
334 00:36:33.570 ⇒ 00:36:39.829 Uttam Kumaran: they’re still doing the thing, and they will continue doing the thing for the next 10 years. It’s like AI doesn’t even exist for them.
335 00:36:39.970 ⇒ 00:36:41.280 Amber Lin: And so…
336 00:36:41.450 ⇒ 00:36:58.870 Uttam Kumaran: when you ask me, like, what our next year, two years is, it’s, absolutely milking that, that we’re in that moment, that our company is in that moment. It’s like, how do we absolutely take advantage of the fact that we lucked out with this technology coming out, and we built a company
337 00:36:59.130 ⇒ 00:37:01.440 Uttam Kumaran: Using it from its early days.
338 00:37:01.750 ⇒ 00:37:05.099 Uttam Kumaran: And continue to use whatever the latest was.
339 00:37:05.810 ⇒ 00:37:10.689 Uttam Kumaran: and monetize it via, like, this expertise vehicle, right? So that’s… that’s sort of, like…
340 00:37:10.690 ⇒ 00:37:12.250 Amber Lin: Yeah.
341 00:37:12.250 ⇒ 00:37:13.220 Uttam Kumaran: thinking about it.
342 00:37:13.410 ⇒ 00:37:30.929 Amber Lin: Yeah, this is… this is really insightful, because it ties to some of my worries I’ve accumulated as we’ve been thinking about my new role. I’ve been thinking about how we would progress, so I’m glad we were able to communicate on your vision for the company, where you see it go, and it makes a lot of sense.
343 00:37:30.930 ⇒ 00:37:35.630 Uttam Kumaran: On Mondays or Fridays, by the way, because Thursdays, I always end up skipping this. I’m so…
344 00:37:35.630 ⇒ 00:37:38.189 Amber Lin: Yeah, I can move it, I can move it to Friday.
345 00:37:38.190 ⇒ 00:37:39.230 Uttam Kumaran: Because, yeah.
346 00:37:39.230 ⇒ 00:37:39.620 Amber Lin: Yeah.
347 00:37:39.620 ⇒ 00:37:44.990 Uttam Kumaran: I mean, I would love to… I don’t want another 4 weeks or whatever to go by where you’re like.
348 00:37:45.160 ⇒ 00:37:50.169 Uttam Kumaran: worried about these things, but of course… and I know you know that I’ll…
349 00:37:50.370 ⇒ 00:37:57.260 Uttam Kumaran: I’ll share with you what I know of the future to be, but it’s… it’s getting more concrete that we’ve… we’re… we’re…
350 00:37:57.470 ⇒ 00:38:02.579 Uttam Kumaran: We’ve taken advantage of the technology, and then we’re trying to enable other companies to do so, you know?
351 00:38:03.940 ⇒ 00:38:18.699 Amber Lin: Yeah, awesome. I… I think the last thing I want to touch upon, since this is the one-year mark, and I know my… I’ve been able to contribute more directly to clients as I’ve been transitioning to the delivery team, doing more client work.
352 00:38:18.730 ⇒ 00:38:20.759 Amber Lin: I was thinking about…
353 00:38:20.760 ⇒ 00:38:42.419 Amber Lin: talking about compensation to you, I know we have the Forging the Future structure, we have the leadership structure. I think with my new range of responsibilities we’re able to do, I was thinking of a compensation around, like, the $100K range with a bonus structure tied to performance, which I know we talked about with the leadership stuff.
354 00:38:42.420 ⇒ 00:38:43.340 Amber Lin: So…
355 00:38:43.520 ⇒ 00:38:50.890 Amber Lin: Don’t need a decision right here, but I just wanted to communicate that to you and have that conversation going on.
356 00:38:51.400 ⇒ 00:38:55.590 Uttam Kumaran: Perfect. I mean, to tell you one, and Kayla is working on this.
357 00:38:55.710 ⇒ 00:39:05.630 Uttam Kumaran: So you can ask her about it tomorrow. I heard you guys are meeting. I am asked… that’s my FOMO. You’re talking about FOMO. I’m like, one, people are meeting. Second, people are meeting, and then, like.
358 00:39:06.040 ⇒ 00:39:11.410 Uttam Kumaran: like, they’re not, like, advertising that you’re meeting, so I’m like, why are… like, I feel like I’m not getting an invite.
359 00:39:11.990 ⇒ 00:39:13.400 Uttam Kumaran: I’ll fly there if I could.
360 00:39:13.900 ⇒ 00:39:16.199 Uttam Kumaran: You never know, I might get so.
361 00:39:16.200 ⇒ 00:39:20.059 Amber Lin: We have so much more LA people now, especially COVID-1.
362 00:39:20.060 ⇒ 00:39:21.360 Uttam Kumaran: I know, you know how…
363 00:39:21.360 ⇒ 00:39:22.150 Amber Lin: Very nice.
364 00:39:22.150 ⇒ 00:39:30.350 Uttam Kumaran: You know how I’m both very happy, because I’m a Lakers fan, but I never thought I would have an LA-based company, so…
365 00:39:30.350 ⇒ 00:39:39.719 Amber Lin: Yeah, I was thinking about, like, maybe one day we’ll be working at a… we work, like, one day out of the week. If we get 10 people in LA.
366 00:39:39.720 ⇒ 00:39:43.099 Uttam Kumaran: Well, I’m just like, I just want you guys to try to meet as often as…
367 00:39:43.510 ⇒ 00:39:50.049 Uttam Kumaran: as you all can, and I will totally pay for it. So you just, like, I think who… I don’t know who in the group is, like.
368 00:39:50.240 ⇒ 00:39:52.920 Uttam Kumaran: Pushing on that, but, like… It’s real.
369 00:39:52.920 ⇒ 00:39:55.040 Amber Lin: I can rely on Kayla on that.
370 00:39:55.040 ⇒ 00:40:01.630 Uttam Kumaran: Okay, it’s making me very, very happy, so I’ll message her to continue, because… I’m very jealous.
371 00:40:01.860 ⇒ 00:40:03.769 Uttam Kumaran: But, like, I also think, like.
372 00:40:04.260 ⇒ 00:40:07.550 Uttam Kumaran: I don’t know, that’s… we’re all humans, like, this is it, so I feel…
373 00:40:07.550 ⇒ 00:40:12.530 Amber Lin: It is, it is nice. It made me feel a lot better the day that we actually met up, I would say.
374 00:40:12.530 ⇒ 00:40:12.960 Uttam Kumaran: That’s also…
375 00:40:13.350 ⇒ 00:40:22.279 Uttam Kumaran: Right? You’re on delivery, Luke is marketing, Kayla’s recruiting. So, like, I’m more jealous, because I’m like, the conversations will be interesting, like, everybody’s angles on things.
376 00:40:22.440 ⇒ 00:40:29.419 Uttam Kumaran: But yeah, we are… so we are working on, basically, a tenure-based program. We almost have it done.
377 00:40:30.770 ⇒ 00:40:42.399 Uttam Kumaran: So there’s certainly going to be an adjustment. Second, yes, like, I think, both… I want to talk about adjustments related to the leadership structure this quarter.
378 00:40:42.670 ⇒ 00:40:49.279 Uttam Kumaran: And then also, I want to codify, like, what we talked about, basically, at least before the end of the quarter, on, like.
379 00:40:49.420 ⇒ 00:40:52.420 Uttam Kumaran: Like, what we… what the plan is… could be going into…
380 00:40:53.020 ⇒ 00:41:02.890 Uttam Kumaran: the rest of the year. I mean, as you see, like, we are at… we are 100% trying just to make sure we deliver the work that we signed up for, AI or not.
381 00:41:03.320 ⇒ 00:41:04.280 Uttam Kumaran: But…
382 00:41:04.580 ⇒ 00:41:18.159 Uttam Kumaran: I am continuously… I think we will do that here shortly, basically because Kayla’s here now, and she’s crushing it. I think we will do that, and then it’ll be like, okay, how do we continue to do that, and then how do I start to continue to elevate
383 00:41:18.450 ⇒ 00:41:26.419 Uttam Kumaran: the people that have been here the longest. Like, how do I give you guys the next best opportunity that you want, you know? So, I think it’s really helpful that
384 00:41:26.530 ⇒ 00:41:34.930 Uttam Kumaran: that you’re… you’re pushing for that, and, like, I… I… I have confidence that we’ll… we’ll be able to… to do that for you. So, let me,
385 00:41:35.080 ⇒ 00:41:40.329 Uttam Kumaran: Let me aim to just, like, wrap that document up, so you’ll at least have clarity, and everybody in the company will have clarity on, like.
386 00:41:40.550 ⇒ 00:41:42.719 Uttam Kumaran: What our tenure-based program is.
387 00:41:43.250 ⇒ 00:41:45.760 Uttam Kumaran: And then, let’s also talk about…
388 00:41:45.950 ⇒ 00:41:48.870 Uttam Kumaran: Like, what it’s gonna look like the rest of the year.
389 00:41:49.440 ⇒ 00:41:53.119 Uttam Kumaran: And yeah, like, I’m pumped, so…
390 00:41:53.530 ⇒ 00:42:07.230 Amber Lin: Gotcha, okay. So, when I want to talk about conversation, so compensation, part of it is tenure-based, which I know we’re working on, and I think part of it is the scope adjustment. I don’t think the initial contract that we.
391 00:42:07.230 ⇒ 00:42:07.570 Uttam Kumaran: Yes.
392 00:42:07.570 ⇒ 00:42:10.410 Amber Lin: based on PM stuff is valid anymore. I mean, there’s.
393 00:42:10.410 ⇒ 00:42:10.740 Uttam Kumaran: No P.
394 00:42:10.740 ⇒ 00:42:17.190 Amber Lin: role anymore, so we might want to revisit the con… I want to revisit the contract, talk about new scope.
395 00:42:17.190 ⇒ 00:42:19.029 Uttam Kumaran: Okay. And talk about…
396 00:42:19.030 ⇒ 00:42:29.459 Amber Lin: goals, say for me for next year, what I want to reach, which is kind of what we talk about in this conversation, and if we were to hit those goals.
397 00:42:29.460 ⇒ 00:42:41.930 Amber Lin: what is it going to look like on the compensation side? So, when do you think I should expect that should… would that be done by, say, next… next time we meet, which is in 2 weeks?
398 00:42:44.410 ⇒ 00:42:50.510 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I mean, we’re gonna have Q2 OKRs, by… in the next 2 weeks.
399 00:42:51.140 ⇒ 00:42:57.570 Uttam Kumaran: So I can show that to you, and in particular, show you what the AI…
400 00:42:58.180 ⇒ 00:43:01.209 Uttam Kumaran: Like, kind of, like, what the platform team’s goals are.
401 00:43:01.470 ⇒ 00:43:06.420 Uttam Kumaran: And then maybe you can have a look at that and say, like, okay, is there one of these that I can directly affect?
402 00:43:06.590 ⇒ 00:43:09.439 Uttam Kumaran: I think the only… if I was to say, like, what the risks are.
403 00:43:11.870 ⇒ 00:43:14.660 Uttam Kumaran: I just don’t know the timing at which
404 00:43:15.160 ⇒ 00:43:21.499 Uttam Kumaran: we will necessitate having someone just dedicated to, like, strategy AI enablement.
405 00:43:21.610 ⇒ 00:43:25.189 Uttam Kumaran: Meaning, we still have a lot of actual strategy work to do.
406 00:43:25.190 ⇒ 00:43:39.710 Amber Lin: Yeah, totally. I never thought that it would be completely enablement. It’s always… I will… it will be similar to… I’ll be working on the clients, and I’ll be maybe doing CSO, or doing EP, or doing that type of enablement.
407 00:43:39.800 ⇒ 00:43:58.609 Amber Lin: So I don’t think our conversation’s too limited by what we decide on for the OKRs. It’s more so, hey, I want to set some bets for myself that somewhat aligns with what we want to do, and I want us to have a compensation plan that aligns with that.
408 00:43:58.850 ⇒ 00:43:59.210 Uttam Kumaran: Okay.
409 00:43:59.210 ⇒ 00:44:10.910 Amber Lin: So, yeah, ideally don’t want to drag it out for too long, because, like, I feel like these conversations, if dragged out, they just disappear. So I would follow up next week, or the week after that with you.
410 00:44:10.910 ⇒ 00:44:13.070 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, keep following up, perfect, okay, okay.
411 00:44:13.560 ⇒ 00:44:22.119 Amber Lin: Awesome. Okay, that’s all I wanted to talk about. I really enjoyed the conversation, have some good notes, have some good thought about where we’re going.
412 00:44:22.120 ⇒ 00:44:35.310 Amber Lin: I just want to close off the conversation. I think I’m really invested in our company. I think the more I see us grow, I think I believe in us more and more each day. Like, before.
413 00:44:35.310 ⇒ 00:44:51.459 Amber Lin: That makes two of us. Like, before my first joined, I was like, okay, I’m working at a small startup. This small company will work on AI data stuff. Now I feel like I can tell people that this cool stuff that we’re working on, and I feel… I feel like we’re cool, you know?
414 00:44:51.460 ⇒ 00:44:52.199 Uttam Kumaran: No, that’s terrible.
415 00:44:52.200 ⇒ 00:44:56.579 Amber Lin: It’s different. It’s different when you feel like, I’m working at a cool place.
416 00:44:56.580 ⇒ 00:44:57.649 Uttam Kumaran: You’re proud, you’re proud.
417 00:44:57.650 ⇒ 00:45:01.230 Amber Lin: proud of the progress and things that we can do.
418 00:45:01.230 ⇒ 00:45:01.550 Uttam Kumaran: Great.
419 00:45:01.550 ⇒ 00:45:06.270 Amber Lin: So that’s… that’s a very different feeling than just saying, hey, I work at a startup, so…
420 00:45:06.270 ⇒ 00:45:06.989 Uttam Kumaran: Well, I’m glad…
421 00:45:06.990 ⇒ 00:45:11.010 Amber Lin: Well, one, send a bunch of your friends to work for us. We’re putting together.
422 00:45:11.010 ⇒ 00:45:16.759 Uttam Kumaran: a pretty generous referral bonus if you get people to work here.
423 00:45:16.880 ⇒ 00:45:24.519 Uttam Kumaran: And yeah, again, like, I think I’ve said it before, and I’ve never worked at a company, it’s like, again, I’m trying my best.
424 00:45:24.810 ⇒ 00:45:39.069 Uttam Kumaran: to find a business model and an advantage where I could have fewer people, and… for this relative to the size, and pay people more. And, like, I’ve always said that, and I’m trying very, very hard.
425 00:45:40.190 ⇒ 00:45:50.370 Uttam Kumaran: But we are going against the grain in many ways to achieve that, but it’s working. But it’s painful. Like, if we were to do it by the book.
426 00:45:50.810 ⇒ 00:45:58.719 Uttam Kumaran: you would not be proud to work here, because it would not be cool, you know? And I wouldn’t be here, there’d be some corporate dude here, like…
427 00:45:58.950 ⇒ 00:46:03.470 Uttam Kumaran: There’s… but because of… because of some of the unorthodox things we’re taking bets on.
428 00:46:04.300 ⇒ 00:46:06.770 Uttam Kumaran: it’s… it’s tough, but I also…
429 00:46:06.880 ⇒ 00:46:12.770 Uttam Kumaran: I believe it more than I did last year, and I believe it every day more than I did the previous day.
430 00:46:13.250 ⇒ 00:46:30.430 Uttam Kumaran: like, I’m very biased, of course, but, I try to be very honest in that, like, I don’t think I had… I think seeing the AI stuff, seeing the types of companies we’re working for, seeing the pricing that sales is able to get, seeing the pipeline that sales is able to get.
431 00:46:30.590 ⇒ 00:46:37.589 Uttam Kumaran: we’re in… we’re, like, not even close to the same company we were in March of last year. Like, unrecognizable.
432 00:46:38.300 ⇒ 00:46:38.920 Amber Lin: Yeah.
433 00:46:39.520 ⇒ 00:46:43.100 Uttam Kumaran: You know, so I, like you, in reflection.
434 00:46:43.430 ⇒ 00:47:02.380 Uttam Kumaran: I believe it a lot, and so it makes me really happy to hear that, like, that’s how you feel, even in… even with people you’re talking to, that, like, you feel like you can talk about the work that we’ve done and are proud of it. And then, like, that you consistently are, like, this is a great place to be, and that we treat you well, and, like, that’s all really amazing, so…
435 00:47:02.530 ⇒ 00:47:05.600 Uttam Kumaran: Just trying to do more of that, if I can, so…
436 00:47:05.600 ⇒ 00:47:14.020 Amber Lin: Yeah, I think… I think that’s… that has trickled down into the values of, like, who we are as a company, so I appreciate that.
437 00:47:15.070 ⇒ 00:47:15.560 Uttam Kumaran: And so…
438 00:47:15.560 ⇒ 00:47:15.920 Amber Lin: Awesome!
439 00:47:15.920 ⇒ 00:47:16.920 Uttam Kumaran: AI stuff.
440 00:47:17.520 ⇒ 00:47:25.190 Amber Lin: Yeah, I will, I will. I’m looking over it this weekend. Okay. So I’ll have more, I’ll have more pings coming your way.
441 00:47:25.190 ⇒ 00:47:29.049 Uttam Kumaran: Okay, cool, yeah, don’t… you can slap me over the weekend, I’m also just thinking about this.
442 00:47:29.270 ⇒ 00:47:29.910 Amber Lin: Oh, okay.
443 00:47:29.910 ⇒ 00:47:32.289 Uttam Kumaran: Jess won’t be happy, but this is all I’m thinking about.
444 00:47:32.700 ⇒ 00:47:33.199 Uttam Kumaran: He’s like, what do you.
445 00:47:33.200 ⇒ 00:47:33.880 Amber Lin: Sounds good.
446 00:47:33.880 ⇒ 00:47:36.110 Uttam Kumaran: I’m like, I’m the AI agent.
447 00:47:36.930 ⇒ 00:47:39.259 Uttam Kumaran: That sounds good.
448 00:47:39.260 ⇒ 00:47:44.570 Amber Lin: Alright, I know you have an event later, so thank you for the call, I really, really enjoyed it.
449 00:47:44.570 ⇒ 00:47:47.269 Uttam Kumaran: Of course, of course. Enjoy tomorrow, tell everyone I said hi.
450 00:47:47.570 ⇒ 00:47:48.360 Amber Lin: Alright.
451 00:47:48.360 ⇒ 00:47:49.020 Uttam Kumaran: Okay.
452 00:47:49.280 ⇒ 00:47:49.980 Amber Lin: Right.