Meeting Title: Brainforge Onboarding and Project Updates Sync Date: 2026-01-16 Meeting participants: Greg Stoutenburg, Sheshu Chandrasekar, Rico Rejoso, Robert Tseng, Amber Lin, Elizah Joy
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1 00:00:34.760 ⇒ 00:00:36.600 Sheshu Chandrasekar: Hey, Greg, how are you doing today?
2 00:00:36.600 ⇒ 00:00:38.059 Greg Stoutenburg: Hey, good, how are you doing?
3 00:00:38.310 ⇒ 00:00:39.250 Sheshu Chandrasekar: Good, good.
4 00:00:41.450 ⇒ 00:00:43.020 Robert Tseng: Hey, shake you!
5 00:00:43.520 ⇒ 00:00:44.939 Sheshu Chandrasekar: Hey, Robert, how are you doing today?
6 00:00:44.940 ⇒ 00:00:46.199 Robert Tseng: Good, how are you?
7 00:00:46.360 ⇒ 00:00:47.210 Sheshu Chandrasekar: Good.
8 00:00:47.340 ⇒ 00:00:48.680 Sheshu Chandrasekar: Yeah, thank you.
9 00:00:49.330 ⇒ 00:00:50.910 Robert Tseng: Is this day one for you?
10 00:00:51.580 ⇒ 00:00:56.389 Sheshu Chandrasekar: Sort of, like, day and a half, or some sort, 1.5, we want to say. Okay.
11 00:00:56.390 ⇒ 00:00:56.740 Robert Tseng: Great.
12 00:00:56.740 ⇒ 00:00:57.280 Sheshu Chandrasekar: Yeah.
13 00:00:57.500 ⇒ 00:00:58.569 Robert Tseng: Glad to have you here.
14 00:00:59.100 ⇒ 00:01:02.239 Sheshu Chandrasekar: Absolutely. And it’s a Friday, so I can’t complain.
15 00:01:02.240 ⇒ 00:01:02.830 Robert Tseng: Yeah.
16 00:01:03.100 ⇒ 00:01:03.670 Sheshu Chandrasekar: Yeah.
17 00:01:07.430 ⇒ 00:01:10.200 Robert Tseng: What has, UTM have you been doing to start?
18 00:01:10.830 ⇒ 00:01:16.689 Sheshu Chandrasekar: I’m just catching up on the Slack channels, going through the notions,
19 00:01:17.280 ⇒ 00:01:26.030 Sheshu Chandrasekar: Yeah, I’m really just trying to… trying to understand the weeds of things, on how everything’s being done. And also checking out Linear pretty soon, yeah.
20 00:01:27.040 ⇒ 00:01:39.289 Robert Tseng: Yeah, I mean, we’ll probably get more organized and grab time with you early next week, but I guess probably for you, just letting you kind of sit… kind of click around, and feel free to ask any questions, and people are pretty help… are very helpful here.
21 00:01:40.270 ⇒ 00:01:47.139 Sheshu Chandrasekar: Yeah, no, I feel like I have so many questions, I just don’t want to bombard them just yet, so… I’m just trying to organize.
22 00:01:47.140 ⇒ 00:01:54.039 Robert Tseng: Greg, since you were, like, one of the more recent ones to join, would you mind, like, wrapping time with Chishu? Just, like…
23 00:01:54.180 ⇒ 00:02:01.440 Robert Tseng: I feel like always asking the most recent person to share with the newest person, like, about their onboarding experience.
24 00:02:01.600 ⇒ 00:02:02.280 Greg Stoutenburg: Great idea.
25 00:02:02.280 ⇒ 00:02:07.089 Robert Tseng: always better than, like, talking to an OG, because things have changed a lot.
26 00:02:07.090 ⇒ 00:02:12.339 Greg Stoutenburg: Yep, that sounds good. Yep, I’m looking at your calendar right now. Shishoo, is it up to date?
27 00:02:12.620 ⇒ 00:02:13.910 Sheshu Chandrasekar: Yeah, it’s up to date.
28 00:02:13.910 ⇒ 00:02:15.560 Greg Stoutenburg: Alright, invite incoming.
29 00:02:15.590 ⇒ 00:02:16.130 Robert Tseng: Okay.
30 00:02:16.940 ⇒ 00:02:25.649 Robert Tseng: Yeah, that way Greg will be able to show you… I mean, he probably had a lot of the same questions you did, but, like, he’s kind of figured out how to leverage, like.
31 00:02:25.890 ⇒ 00:02:33.650 Robert Tseng: you know, our Notion, our BrainForge platform, all these, like, custom processes that we’ve to find this way around.
32 00:02:33.880 ⇒ 00:02:49.379 Greg Stoutenburg: Yeah, I’ll show you around. Just for context, in probably, I don’t know, maybe the second week… first or second week of December, I started on a project, sort of, you know, kind of on a trial basis, and then, you know, and then there were the holidays, and then the beginning of this month, have been sort of ramping up more, so…
33 00:02:49.400 ⇒ 00:02:55.780 Greg Stoutenburg: Pretty new, but have a little bit of work in. So, yeah, I’ll give you my… Perfect.
34 00:02:55.880 ⇒ 00:02:59.890 Sheshu Chandrasekar: Cool. Yeah, no, that’d be great. Man, looking forward to it.
35 00:02:59.890 ⇒ 00:03:00.480 Greg Stoutenburg: Yep.
36 00:03:01.250 ⇒ 00:03:08.660 Robert Tseng: Cool. Well, Greg, I mean, if you want to get started, I guess we’ll let you kind of do your piece, and then you can feel free to hop off.
37 00:03:08.920 ⇒ 00:03:16.869 Greg Stoutenburg: Yep, sounds good. Readme’s in a holding pattern, waiting for feedback from Phoebe, not worried about it. Board meeting just happened,
38 00:03:17.000 ⇒ 00:03:34.419 Greg Stoutenburg: We’re up to speed on that one. Default, I’ll pitch them the product analytics SWO at noon Eastern time. After this call, I’ll just… I’ll do what I did before the HEDRA call yesterday, and just kind of swim around in the product a little bit more, just so it’s top of mind.
39 00:03:34.420 ⇒ 00:03:40.849 Greg Stoutenburg: Utom and Demi, according to UTom’s note, teed it up, like, they’re verbally…
40 00:03:40.850 ⇒ 00:04:00.410 Greg Stoutenburg: like, excited about it, so I’ll just try to be personable. I’ll show… I’ll say some things about how the workflow chart that they’ve already shared would go in amplitude, and then I’ll share their amplitude and say, you know, here’s what I see, and let’s imagine a world in which you can see, you know, and I’ll sort of paint a picture, and try to just generate some excitement.
41 00:04:00.720 ⇒ 00:04:01.300 Robert Tseng: Yeah.
42 00:04:01.570 ⇒ 00:04:12.570 Greg Stoutenburg: For Hydra, the call went… the call went well. It was, Michael, the CEO, was not able to be on the call, so I geared it toward Sandra.
43 00:04:12.570 ⇒ 00:04:34.170 Greg Stoutenburg: who, you know, seemed to be buying into it. She… she liked the vision, but there was some, like, you know, here are some concerns we’re sharing, and then I’d say some things about how we’re gonna collaborate on this, this is sort of a, you know, a draft, we’re gonna work this out together, and then, you know, it sounds like there’s… there is resistance to switching to Amplitude, which is not the end of the world. I can, you know, I know Post Hog relatively well, so,
44 00:04:34.500 ⇒ 00:04:42.289 Greg Stoutenburg: probably do it post-hoc, but she’s going to share the doc with Michael, and they’ll talk about it and get back to us early next week after the holiday.
45 00:04:42.520 ⇒ 00:04:43.070 Robert Tseng: Okay.
46 00:04:43.140 ⇒ 00:04:54.050 Greg Stoutenburg: Eden, Mixpanel was frustrating me yesterday evening, as you saw. So I… I understand what the goal is, and I feel like if I can…
47 00:04:54.090 ⇒ 00:05:12.619 Greg Stoutenburg: if I can get a way to identify user progression through these intake forms, I feel like then the rest of what to experiment on is actually going to be relatively easy. The challenge that I’m having is that it’s very difficult to see in the events that are being sent over where a user is engaging with what.
48 00:05:12.680 ⇒ 00:05:25.689 Greg Stoutenburg: And so, an idea that I had is, is one thing that I can do is, when a user hits a click event, there’s a path that they will have gone down that’s identified in the first click event.
49 00:05:25.690 ⇒ 00:05:35.110 Greg Stoutenburg: And so my thought is, alright, I probably can’t do this for every single intake form, because it’ll just take forever, but I can find the ones that are already, like, maybe the highest converting or the.
50 00:05:35.110 ⇒ 00:05:36.860 Robert Tseng: They’re all pretty similar, yeah.
51 00:05:36.860 ⇒ 00:05:37.749 Greg Stoutenburg: And then just follow…
52 00:05:37.750 ⇒ 00:05:39.030 Robert Tseng: the text, yeah,
53 00:05:39.030 ⇒ 00:05:50.000 Greg Stoutenburg: Yeah, yes, right, this is the idea, right? It’s just, like, sort of… I’ll just sort of pick a few that seem like they might be good ones to work on, and see if I can… what I want to do is map out where users are dropping off. It might just be…
54 00:05:50.370 ⇒ 00:06:00.739 Greg Stoutenburg: Users who give up, they give up after 5 pages. It might be users who give up do it once they, you know, once some page is thrown that has a…
55 00:06:00.800 ⇒ 00:06:15.660 Greg Stoutenburg: an extra step that they need to take, like, now they actually have to enter their name or something. So that’s the goal. It’s just… it’s just been challenging from the limitations of the events that I’m seeing come in. So, Zoran shared a video where
56 00:06:15.790 ⇒ 00:06:19.450 Greg Stoutenburg: It is actually, unfortunately, what’s coming through in the inspect pane is
57 00:06:19.790 ⇒ 00:06:29.910 Greg Stoutenburg: pretty much what’s coming through in the extension. So, I don’t know. I still… I still don’t know if there’s a way to see named events
58 00:06:30.040 ⇒ 00:06:37.380 Greg Stoutenburg: That are fired when a user is engaging with the page or an intake form, if there’s a way to see when those are happening.
59 00:06:37.560 ⇒ 00:06:40.049 Greg Stoutenburg: and correlate that with what’s in Mixpanel.
60 00:06:40.780 ⇒ 00:06:45.700 Robert Tseng: Yeah, on the intake side, it’s…
61 00:06:50.170 ⇒ 00:06:51.000 Robert Tseng: Well…
62 00:06:51.480 ⇒ 00:07:01.680 Robert Tseng: I mean, I mean, I might poke around in it and try to… try to give you… I feel like… I feel like you must be able to, but I’m gonna… I’m also about to slack you something, not sure which report this is from, but, like…
63 00:07:01.820 ⇒ 00:07:07.059 Robert Tseng: You can separate, intakes by slug name.
64 00:07:07.270 ⇒ 00:07:07.840 Greg Stoutenburg: Yeah.
65 00:07:07.840 ⇒ 00:07:12.980 Robert Tseng: Name, can find the most… used…
66 00:07:14.470 ⇒ 00:07:16.740 Robert Tseng: You know, like, find the most used.
67 00:07:17.060 ⇒ 00:07:19.340 Robert Tseng: It’s… yeah, this.
68 00:07:19.860 ⇒ 00:07:28.329 Robert Tseng: We already tried to do some benchmarking, but, I mean, this was something that Henry had done. I don’t think he really left a paper trail, though, so I can’t replicate it.
69 00:07:28.800 ⇒ 00:07:32.190 Robert Tseng: But anyway, I just… that’s what came to mind. Yeah.
70 00:07:34.330 ⇒ 00:07:37.380 Robert Tseng: Yeah. Okay. And that’s…
71 00:07:37.640 ⇒ 00:07:44.909 Greg Stoutenburg: Is there a dock somewhere that’ll… that will connect those slugs to a named product or a type of product?
72 00:07:45.230 ⇒ 00:07:53.259 Robert Tseng: No. I mean, I don’t… I don’t think Henry ever made the documentation. Like, I just… yeah, I just don’t think there’s documentation anywhere.
73 00:07:53.260 ⇒ 00:08:08.150 Greg Stoutenburg: Yeah, okay, yeah. Now, I just want to be able to, you know, deliver on the, you know, an experimentation plan, and I think that if I can just… if I can get some of this analytics stuff done, I think that’s going to be the easy part. So I just don’t want it to be taking forever if there’s stuff out there already.
74 00:08:08.150 ⇒ 00:08:15.309 Robert Tseng: Yeah, I mean, the intake slug is probably coming in from VWO, but I… I don’t know. Like, it’s definitely not defined, like…
75 00:08:16.140 ⇒ 00:08:26.140 Robert Tseng: the MixPanel. Like, there’s no custom… all MixPanel instrumentation is going through segments, so I think, like, it’s either in Segment or VWO that’s coming in.
76 00:08:26.450 ⇒ 00:08:32.189 Greg Stoutenburg: Okay, alright, I’ll explore there before I kick around a mixed panel anymore. That’s probably a better place to start.
77 00:08:32.830 ⇒ 00:08:33.480 Robert Tseng: Yeah.
78 00:08:33.640 ⇒ 00:08:41.759 Robert Tseng: Yeah, sorry, I wish I could have given you a better handoff here, like, a greet me or something, but, yeah.
79 00:08:41.960 ⇒ 00:08:44.579 Greg Stoutenburg: Yeah, no, that’s okay, and I’ll keep working on it, I just, you know…
80 00:08:44.850 ⇒ 00:08:46.990 Robert Tseng: I just don’t want to take forever. Okay.
81 00:08:46.990 ⇒ 00:08:47.610 Greg Stoutenburg: Yep.
82 00:08:48.380 ⇒ 00:08:53.820 Robert Tseng: Yeah, and then for… for Hydra, what was their main objection?
83 00:08:54.760 ⇒ 00:09:10.659 Greg Stoutenburg: There… they only had two concerns that she stated. One was, what is required of Hedra, because she said, we are constrained on engineering resources, and then the other was, we don’t really want to come off of post-hog if we don’t absolutely have to. And so, to that one, I said.
84 00:09:10.660 ⇒ 00:09:27.829 Greg Stoutenburg: yeah, that’s not, like, a do or die. I’ll just provide one piece of information. You know, I just included a link in the SOW of an article written by Post Hog that’s comparing posthog to Amplitude. So I was like… and I’ll just leave it there, and that’s fine. For the engineering resource, this is what we… we had an exchange,
85 00:09:27.830 ⇒ 00:09:42.039 Greg Stoutenburg: about yesterday, where we just need some front-end engineer, and either that can come from us, or that can come from them. And that’s why I was asking questions about how many hours it would take, just so Sandra knows. And that was… that’s it. Those are the only objections. And then…
86 00:09:42.040 ⇒ 00:09:42.380 Robert Tseng: Okay.
87 00:09:42.380 ⇒ 00:09:43.560 Greg Stoutenburg: He’ll talk it through with Michael.
88 00:09:43.800 ⇒ 00:09:44.380 Robert Tseng: Okay.
89 00:09:44.380 ⇒ 00:09:45.170 Greg Stoutenburg: Great.
90 00:09:45.460 ⇒ 00:09:46.960 Greg Stoutenburg: So I think that’s in a good place.
91 00:09:47.650 ⇒ 00:09:48.919 Robert Tseng: Okay, sounds good.
92 00:09:48.920 ⇒ 00:09:51.869 Greg Stoutenburg: Cool. Alright. See you guys. Talk later. Thanks.
93 00:09:53.800 ⇒ 00:10:00.470 Robert Tseng: Alright. Amber, I saw… New ABC stuff, do you want to just do the review here?
94 00:10:01.220 ⇒ 00:10:02.649 Amber Lin: Yeah, we can do that.
95 00:10:07.810 ⇒ 00:10:08.880 Amber Lin: Alright.
96 00:10:13.200 ⇒ 00:10:17.669 Amber Lin: So, the main change is the model that I just created.
97 00:10:18.040 ⇒ 00:10:31.790 Amber Lin: So it’s… it’s actually quite, I would say, quite similar to the model you had. I like the, new versus existing, expansion, so I sliced it up in
98 00:10:32.170 ⇒ 00:10:50.310 Amber Lin: in two ways to talk about growth. So one is, how do you grow from existing markets? And I think that relates to what we will be pitching on, like, conversion, helping them look at cancellation reasons, so that’s why I also put this here of,
99 00:10:50.800 ⇒ 00:10:57.359 Amber Lin: what is the opportunity there? And I have the formulas here, some examples of how it works, and…
100 00:10:57.400 ⇒ 00:11:13.049 Amber Lin: Later, I have a screenshot of the models, so I can tell them to see, hey, which service presents the greatest opportunity from improving current, conversion, etc, and that’s just going to be the biggest services they have currently.
101 00:11:13.830 ⇒ 00:11:31.140 Amber Lin: And I have some recommendations of what it… what does it mean to, improve conversion, especially. I think the next, the next area is mainly what we talked about yesterday, of what is the market size of expanding to
102 00:11:31.400 ⇒ 00:11:36.380 Amber Lin: New markets, especially the ones we talked about here.
103 00:11:37.050 ⇒ 00:11:41.170 Amber Lin: And then in there, I…
104 00:11:41.190 ⇒ 00:11:59.090 Amber Lin: I did 3 main factors. I did barriers to entry, I did, revenue stickiness of, how can… if you do win the share, does it… does it leak, or stay? And lastly, I want… took into consideration our current maturity in the market.
105 00:11:59.090 ⇒ 00:12:06.030 Amber Lin: Because, for example, for pest control, they will have, less areas to expand.
106 00:12:06.610 ⇒ 00:12:14.679 Amber Lin: And so, with that… I also put an example here.
107 00:12:15.050 ⇒ 00:12:23.730 Amber Lin: And… this is essentially what I’m trying to estimate is the, is the expansion share.
108 00:12:24.220 ⇒ 00:12:30.980 Amber Lin: Of the… serviceable of the SAM. So,
109 00:12:32.030 ⇒ 00:12:34.880 Amber Lin: Let’s see… and this is the…
110 00:12:35.440 ⇒ 00:12:38.790 Amber Lin: the overall summary of that part, so I have the…
111 00:12:38.890 ⇒ 00:12:44.290 Amber Lin: SAM, based on… it is calculated based on
112 00:12:44.740 ⇒ 00:12:52.409 Amber Lin: How much geography they cover, how many services they cover, and their pricing positioning.
113 00:12:53.290 ⇒ 00:12:56.210 Amber Lin: So, based on that, we have the market.
114 00:12:56.440 ⇒ 00:13:02.889 Amber Lin: And then this is the current market share based on their current revenue, and then these, these are…
115 00:13:03.590 ⇒ 00:13:10.030 Amber Lin: Trying to estimate what is the target share lift. And I have…
116 00:13:10.290 ⇒ 00:13:17.720 Amber Lin: Depending on the barriers to entry, if there’s a lot of existing competitors, if it’s very,
117 00:13:17.900 ⇒ 00:13:29.470 Amber Lin: license, or, it requires a lot of regulation, so then I give them, if it’s weak competition, then I give them 10… 10 BPS points.
118 00:13:29.470 ⇒ 00:13:49.400 Amber Lin: And then, based on the current service maturity, I would take out a certain amount of points based on what their current market share is. And lastly, okay, if they do acquire the share, how easy is it to stick? Meaning, like, usually if it’s a long-term contract instead of one-offs, the stickiness would be different.
119 00:13:49.780 ⇒ 00:13:59.420 Amber Lin: So based on that, I have the very conservative estimate, and then I say the base case is about 2X of that in the, in the case that
120 00:13:59.540 ⇒ 00:14:05.930 Amber Lin: the brand goes really well, I would say, 5X of that. And… Oh.
121 00:14:06.600 ⇒ 00:14:11.830 Amber Lin: And… So based on that, I have the projected,
122 00:14:12.300 ⇒ 00:14:18.270 Amber Lin: incremental revenue in the conservative case, in the base case, which is about $32 million.
123 00:14:19.160 ⇒ 00:14:27.670 Amber Lin: And lastly, I’m saying that this takes effect over a 4-year time period, and based on that, I did a…
124 00:14:29.960 ⇒ 00:14:40.200 Amber Lin: how they would see growth over 4 years, because a big question that they have is, why are we not growing in a growing industry? So…
125 00:14:40.510 ⇒ 00:14:53.980 Amber Lin: giving the projections that I have to say, hey, if you were to, achieve this growth, if you were to achieve the improvements in conversion, retention, etc, this is what you would be seeing.
126 00:14:54.000 ⇒ 00:15:03.200 Amber Lin: And that would solve your concern of stalled growth. So, that’s the main new model that I added.
127 00:15:03.450 ⇒ 00:15:05.530 Amber Lin: And I’ll pause here for comments.
128 00:15:06.300 ⇒ 00:15:09.819 Robert Tseng: Okay, yeah, I’m gonna replace the screen share, so…
129 00:15:10.230 ⇒ 00:15:11.240 Amber Lin: Go ahead.
130 00:15:11.530 ⇒ 00:15:18.100 Robert Tseng: Cool. So, yeah, I mean, definitely… I mean, I just need some more times. Like, these are pretty dense slides, so…
131 00:15:18.520 ⇒ 00:15:22.779 Robert Tseng: This is the same as before, highest ROI per dollar.
132 00:15:23.180 ⇒ 00:15:28.915 Robert Tseng: Yeah, like, I would even add something like…
133 00:15:30.080 ⇒ 00:15:37.320 Robert Tseng: If you’re trying to call something out, like, this is just…
134 00:15:37.470 ⇒ 00:15:40.720 Amber Lin: Yeah, I got you, I can do it.
135 00:15:41.660 ⇒ 00:15:49.830 Robert Tseng: Yeah, something that, like, makes it easier to highlight, like, what… which one you’re talking about. I don’t know if that’s the best color, but…
136 00:15:49.830 ⇒ 00:15:51.580 Amber Lin: Yeah, I can… I can do the rest.
137 00:15:51.780 ⇒ 00:15:53.720 Robert Tseng: Okay, yeah, something like that.
138 00:15:54.450 ⇒ 00:15:59.939 Robert Tseng: On, on the lines that you’re, that you’re calling out, it just might, might help. Yeah.
139 00:16:00.100 ⇒ 00:16:03.540 Robert Tseng: Yeah, especially since there’s a lot of colors here, and people are probably gonna get…
140 00:16:03.860 ⇒ 00:16:15.219 Robert Tseng: like, shock from… from seeing… from seeing that. Can see. 16 markets… 11 million in growth.
141 00:16:15.860 ⇒ 00:16:18.600 Robert Tseng: From conversion, retention, and upsells.
142 00:16:19.740 ⇒ 00:16:21.360 Robert Tseng: conversion…
143 00:16:24.490 ⇒ 00:16:29.629 Robert Tseng: Yeah, I’m not really getting where you’re getting this number from, so…
144 00:16:31.960 ⇒ 00:16:43.210 Amber Lin: I’m mostly talking about, especially from the data I’ve seen from Zoron, they have a lot of drop-offs in their conversion funnel, so I’m saying if we were to improve that.
145 00:16:43.760 ⇒ 00:16:48.180 Amber Lin: what is the lift from that conversion? So…
146 00:16:48.460 ⇒ 00:16:52.730 Amber Lin: Yeah, say, if we improve conversion by 1%.
147 00:16:53.090 ⇒ 00:16:56.649 Amber Lin: What is the incremental revenue that we’ll get?
148 00:16:56.650 ⇒ 00:16:59.370 Robert Tseng: Yeah, I see. Yeah.
149 00:17:00.540 ⇒ 00:17:04.040 Robert Tseng: And somehow that adds up to $11 million.
150 00:17:04.650 ⇒ 00:17:06.999 Amber Lin: For all of their different services.
151 00:17:07.970 ⇒ 00:17:08.700 Robert Tseng: Okay.
152 00:17:12.300 ⇒ 00:17:13.560 Robert Tseng: So…
153 00:17:14.530 ⇒ 00:17:21.290 Robert Tseng: I guess it’s hard to, like, do all three at once, so if I were a CM, I’d be like, okay, well, which one should we do? Like, it looks like…
154 00:17:21.290 ⇒ 00:17:21.900 Amber Lin: Hmm.
155 00:17:22.339 ⇒ 00:17:27.879 Robert Tseng: Well, these aren’t really apples to apples, because it’s, like, 1% lift is 3, 4… I mean…
156 00:17:28.089 ⇒ 00:17:33.969 Robert Tseng: And then you’re doing 5%, 5%. So, I mean, I think it, intuitively,
157 00:17:34.909 ⇒ 00:17:40.119 Robert Tseng: Higher conversions drive more growth than retentions and upsells.
158 00:17:40.700 ⇒ 00:17:49.580 Robert Tseng: So, I mean, yeah, if this was 5, this probably would be 5X, right? And then, that would end up making… that would… that’d be more…
159 00:17:49.580 ⇒ 00:17:54.940 Amber Lin: I see, so you’re saying if I can just use the same percentage point, it’ll be easier for them? Yeah.
160 00:17:54.970 ⇒ 00:18:03.050 Robert Tseng: That way they can say, if I were to put an additional dollar in one of these
161 00:18:04.050 ⇒ 00:18:08.629 Robert Tseng: areas, like, what… where am I gonna get my biggest squeeze from?
162 00:18:11.780 ⇒ 00:18:21.419 Robert Tseng: Otherwise, this kind of just shows that, like, conversion is… I think it’s misleading, because it shows that it’s lower when it’s not. Like, I don’t really… like, I think…
163 00:18:21.420 ⇒ 00:18:21.830 Amber Lin: Yeah, I’m.
164 00:18:21.830 ⇒ 00:18:26.809 Robert Tseng: We just need… we actually want to push them towards conversion more. Like, I think that’s probably the…
165 00:18:26.810 ⇒ 00:18:28.480 Amber Lin: Mmm, okay, I hear you.
166 00:18:28.480 ⇒ 00:18:28.800 Robert Tseng: Yeah.
167 00:18:28.800 ⇒ 00:18:31.480 Amber Lin: Yeah, and that’s the part that we can actually do the most on.
168 00:18:31.480 ⇒ 00:18:33.670 Robert Tseng: Yeah, that’s where we could probably impact the most.
169 00:18:33.840 ⇒ 00:18:39.330 Robert Tseng: Oh, these, these two. Upsells, probably less, less so. Okay.
170 00:18:39.510 ⇒ 00:18:47.020 Robert Tseng: And then… 32, so… 11 million growth.
171 00:18:47.930 ⇒ 00:18:52.410 Robert Tseng: Can’t see to it from… don’t really know what that means.
172 00:18:52.720 ⇒ 00:18:53.230 Robert Tseng: Suchi.
173 00:18:53.230 ⇒ 00:18:54.530 Amber Lin: Is it for a church.
174 00:18:55.690 ⇒ 00:19:08.269 Robert Tseng: No, I mean, I understand this, but, like, it just… I don’t really know what, from strategic growth means. I’m assuming you’re defining what strategic growth is here, but I don’t really see a definition, so I think this is.
175 00:19:08.270 ⇒ 00:19:08.839 Amber Lin: I see.
176 00:19:09.410 ⇒ 00:19:13.600 Amber Lin: It’s more of, expanding to markets that… They…
177 00:19:14.250 ⇒ 00:19:23.050 Amber Lin: say, growing the… say, for example, growing the HVAC services, which has a lot bigger market share compared to residential pest.
178 00:19:24.620 ⇒ 00:19:28.050 Robert Tseng: Yeah, so… I guess…
179 00:19:28.450 ⇒ 00:19:44.439 Robert Tseng: This is from existing markets, and this… I’m trying to differentiate between these two. Like, why are we talking about conversion retention here, and then we’re just talking about new markets? Like, I mean, to me, these are both strategic… anything that’s growth is strategic, so, like, I think maybe the… the terms don’t really make sense.
180 00:19:44.440 ⇒ 00:19:46.970 Amber Lin: Call it, like, New Marcus? Does that work?
181 00:19:47.630 ⇒ 00:19:50.289 Amber Lin: New market acquisition.
182 00:19:50.690 ⇒ 00:19:51.380 Amber Lin: Hmm.
183 00:19:52.590 ⇒ 00:19:55.779 Amber Lin: New market entry, perhaps?
184 00:19:56.050 ⇒ 00:20:00.899 Robert Tseng: Yeah, I mean, new market expansion is fine, and then this is more kind of like,
185 00:20:03.940 ⇒ 00:20:08.910 Robert Tseng: Yeah, I mean, existing market growth is… makes sense, like, I think, yeah, but I think…
186 00:20:09.180 ⇒ 00:20:13.200 Robert Tseng: maybe take out the strategic part, I think that that just makes it feel misleading.
187 00:20:13.200 ⇒ 00:20:13.700 Amber Lin: Yeah.
188 00:20:13.700 ⇒ 00:20:14.030 Robert Tseng: Yeah.
189 00:20:14.260 ⇒ 00:20:14.790 Amber Lin: Thank you.
190 00:20:15.420 ⇒ 00:20:22.650 Robert Tseng: And then… Okay, so the equation here is barriers to entry.
191 00:20:23.000 ⇒ 00:20:28.190 Robert Tseng: This revenue stickiness. So, how many alternatives exist, and how strong are they?
192 00:20:35.880 ⇒ 00:20:40.350 Robert Tseng: Yeah, I’m… this is a little bit difficult for me to understand,
193 00:20:42.030 ⇒ 00:20:47.830 Robert Tseng: why is the higher… like, higher number is weaker? I’m not… because there are more…
194 00:20:47.830 ⇒ 00:20:56.159 Amber Lin: Sorry, this is, I’m trying to model the share… market share lift. Let me type that out.
195 00:20:56.350 ⇒ 00:20:59.070 Robert Tseng: Market share lift.
196 00:20:59.840 ⇒ 00:21:08.790 Amber Lin: percentages. So the higher the number is means that it’s… we’re expecting a higher lift in market share.
197 00:21:10.330 ⇒ 00:21:19.390 Robert Tseng: But… higher is weak? Like, I… sorry, I don’t really understand this.
198 00:21:20.410 ⇒ 00:21:23.930 Amber Lin: So, weak competition, so weak barriers to entry.
199 00:21:24.410 ⇒ 00:21:25.030 Robert Tseng: Yeah.
200 00:21:25.660 ⇒ 00:21:35.649 Amber Lin: So, means that… Expecting… Fire… Market share lift.
201 00:21:39.600 ⇒ 00:21:40.370 Robert Tseng: Okay.
202 00:21:45.530 ⇒ 00:21:47.180 Robert Tseng: Yeah, I think we have to…
203 00:21:48.070 ⇒ 00:21:50.590 Robert Tseng: to tighten this thing up. I think it’s… yeah, it’s not… it’s not…
204 00:21:50.590 ⇒ 00:21:52.340 Amber Lin: intuitive.
205 00:21:52.580 ⇒ 00:21:53.160 Robert Tseng: Okay.
206 00:21:54.560 ⇒ 00:21:57.850 Robert Tseng: Shares won, or does it accumulate or leak?
207 00:22:09.010 ⇒ 00:22:18.469 Robert Tseng: What’s interesting about this is, like, this is… these are 3 inputs, or, like, it’s not the full equation, right? It’s just, like, okay, you’re… you’re trying to normalize, like.
208 00:22:19.000 ⇒ 00:22:22.990 Robert Tseng: barriers to entry, you’re trying to, like, give it some sort of index, like…
209 00:22:23.380 ⇒ 00:22:25.630 Robert Tseng: This is, like, a high barrier to entry
210 00:22:25.780 ⇒ 00:22:30.040 Robert Tseng: like, HVAC’s high barrier to entry, but then…
211 00:22:30.310 ⇒ 00:22:34.030 Robert Tseng: Once, you know, but then it has high revenue stickiness.
212 00:22:34.270 ⇒ 00:22:39.650 Robert Tseng: And… But then you have to subtract your existing share.
213 00:22:39.650 ⇒ 00:22:46.589 Amber Lin: So we… we’re not really in that market, so I think it’s just meaning there’s a lot more room for us to expand.
214 00:22:47.900 ⇒ 00:22:57.159 Robert Tseng: I see… And so you do all of that, you see this plus this minus this equals…
215 00:22:58.100 ⇒ 00:23:05.309 Amber Lin: The share of growth of, like, the lift in market share.
216 00:23:05.880 ⇒ 00:23:10.109 Amber Lin: That I would use to calculate how much additional revenue that I’ll get.
217 00:23:11.710 ⇒ 00:23:13.970 Robert Tseng: Okay
218 00:23:18.780 ⇒ 00:23:23.340 Robert Tseng: Yeah, I mean, I don’t… I guess, like, I… I don’t know if I believe that. I’m, like…
219 00:23:26.290 ⇒ 00:23:27.160 Robert Tseng: is…
220 00:23:34.980 ⇒ 00:23:39.979 Robert Tseng: Yeah, I don’t… I don’t know, I just… I’ve… I have a… I mean.
221 00:23:40.200 ⇒ 00:23:42.179 Robert Tseng: I think if I’m… yeah, I…
222 00:23:43.660 ⇒ 00:23:49.569 Robert Tseng: I’m… yeah, I guess… I’m looking at this for the first time, I don’t know if I believe that equation, so I think I kind of need to.
223 00:23:49.570 ⇒ 00:24:00.340 Amber Lin: If you were the exec, what other factors would make it have more sense to you? Because we’re presenting later, and I, like, I’m happy to reduce.
224 00:24:00.340 ⇒ 00:24:00.700 Robert Tseng: Yes.
225 00:24:00.700 ⇒ 00:24:04.699 Amber Lin: I just wanted this to be… Reasonable for us to pitch.
226 00:24:10.240 ⇒ 00:24:14.939 Robert Tseng: So, I’m just, like, I’m, like, a very, like, equation-driven person, so…
227 00:24:15.610 ⇒ 00:24:34.000 Robert Tseng: Barriers plus revenue stickiness minus existing share. Like, to me, like, none of… those three things don’t naturally fit in the same equation. So I think, like, I’m having a hard time, like, putting together, like, why, like, what, like, how that fits. If you’re… and your output is you’re trying to calculate market share lift.
228 00:24:34.760 ⇒ 00:24:37.059 Robert Tseng: Is that… is that what you’re trying to calculate?
229 00:24:37.940 ⇒ 00:24:41.510 Robert Tseng: Okay, so I think, like, yeah, well, there’s…
230 00:24:42.210 ⇒ 00:24:48.540 Robert Tseng: Well, to me, market share lifts, like, in an opportunity-sizing kind of exercise, like, you’re…
231 00:24:49.710 ⇒ 00:24:51.949 Robert Tseng: Yeah, I mean, you need to have the current
232 00:24:52.240 ⇒ 00:25:01.420 Robert Tseng: you need to have the current market share, so I think you’re trying to capture that with this. I think SAM is also not, like, a term you should… you should… you should try to just write it out, or, like.
233 00:25:01.560 ⇒ 00:25:07.670 Robert Tseng: Is the SAM even assumed? Like, do they even know what their current market share is? Like, I don’t know if they do.
234 00:25:08.270 ⇒ 00:25:18.019 Robert Tseng: But yeah, I mean, you start there, and then you’re trying to measure incrementality. So, you’re saying that, like, yeah, once again, it’s like, if I put a dollar in this market.
235 00:25:18.460 ⇒ 00:25:29.169 Robert Tseng: how far is it gonna go? Like, that to me is, like, what… that’s what you’re… that’s… that’s the question. So, it’s like, okay, if I put a dollar in a market that has a high barrier to entry.
236 00:25:29.360 ⇒ 00:25:34.520 Amber Lin: It’s gonna cost a lot more to enter that market. So there is this upfront cost that you have to pay.
237 00:25:34.520 ⇒ 00:25:38.850 Robert Tseng: You have to pay all the… pay it all the way through in order to enter that market.
238 00:25:39.900 ⇒ 00:25:40.340 Amber Lin: G.
239 00:25:40.340 ⇒ 00:25:48.710 Robert Tseng: And then there’s revenue stickiness, right? Like, I’ll give, like, an analogy. So, like, like, TRX is like an exercise band. Do you know what that is?
240 00:25:49.660 ⇒ 00:26:02.899 Robert Tseng: Yeah, so, like, when they first launched their product, like, nobody knew how to use it. So the barrier to entry was actually quite hard in the fitness community. They had to, like, pay all the way through to train and educate people on how to use it, so…
241 00:26:02.900 ⇒ 00:26:10.679 Robert Tseng: They hired coaches, specialists, video training programs, like DVDs that they sent to people’s homes, did all this stuff, just to, like, break into the market.
242 00:26:10.970 ⇒ 00:26:31.020 Robert Tseng: Once people got onto it, they were hooked, and they really, like, enjoyed working with it. What’s interesting, though, is that pretty much just, like, a Chinese supplier just copies the same thing, and they just, like, sell the product, they cut it at 50% of the price, and then, you know, they already… they eat 50% of, like, TRX’s market share, right? So, like, for them.
243 00:26:31.020 ⇒ 00:26:38.430 Robert Tseng: They’re not the first mover, but, like, their barrier to entry is much lower, because everything already exi- all that education already existed in the market.
244 00:26:38.430 ⇒ 00:26:42.840 Robert Tseng: And the revenue stickingness is there because it’s a very price-driven kind of, like,
245 00:26:42.840 ⇒ 00:26:47.910 Robert Tseng: kind of, like, a purchase. And so, I think, like.
246 00:26:47.950 ⇒ 00:26:51.129 Robert Tseng: you know, from a services perspective, like, I think about…
247 00:26:51.400 ⇒ 00:26:57.719 Robert Tseng: Well, maybe there isn’t, like, what are those barriers? I think it’s more interesting to kind of… to kind of talk about
248 00:26:57.980 ⇒ 00:27:11.170 Robert Tseng: Like, yeah, like, if you’re saying HVAC is a high barrier to entry, it’s like, okay, I believe that. Okay, strong competition, it’s regulated, it’s, like, not easy for there to be that many HVAC suppliers, okay? Like, I can… I can understand that.
249 00:27:11.170 ⇒ 00:27:20.799 Robert Tseng: And then, once you’re in, it’s like, okay, once you… once you have your provider, and you continue… you like their service, you keep coming back to them, maybe there’s, like, some…
250 00:27:20.800 ⇒ 00:27:36.100 Robert Tseng: I mean, you’re saying there’s contracts, subscriptions, like, I don’t need… I don’t know if these are the actual mechanisms that they… they use in order to, like, keep a… keep a customer, but yeah, I mean, like, I feel like you’re… you’re trying to, like, tell… tell that story, and I… I feel like it’s… like, I feel like there’s…
251 00:27:36.190 ⇒ 00:27:38.360 Robert Tseng: It’s… it’s not…
252 00:27:38.800 ⇒ 00:27:42.940 Robert Tseng: maybe you just have to reverse the order? Maybe it’s, like, kind of starting from, like, a…
253 00:27:43.740 ⇒ 00:27:47.219 Robert Tseng: If I were to just duplicate this and go from…
254 00:27:50.470 ⇒ 00:27:54.150 Robert Tseng: You’re going, like, Okay, this is the existing…
255 00:27:54.430 ⇒ 00:28:05.870 Robert Tseng: Markets, and then you’re going, like, some arrows, and then you’re going to, the barrier to entry, and then you’re going to,
256 00:28:11.970 ⇒ 00:28:15.959 Robert Tseng: then you’re going to… I guess what you’re calling revenue…
257 00:28:16.330 ⇒ 00:28:19.980 Robert Tseng: stickiness, but, I mean, it’s really just, like, you know.
258 00:28:21.840 ⇒ 00:28:27.260 Robert Tseng: Revenue retention, you know, like, lifetime, like.
259 00:28:27.790 ⇒ 00:28:35.899 Robert Tseng: a lifetime… Value… like, there’s, like, if there’s, like, some curve, right? So, like, I would…
260 00:28:36.250 ⇒ 00:28:39.780 Robert Tseng: Like, I don’t know if that’s a better way to kind of, like, set.
261 00:28:39.780 ⇒ 00:28:41.390 Amber Lin: That makes sense, yeah.
262 00:28:41.390 ⇒ 00:28:56.270 Robert Tseng: Yeah, so, like, I kind of view it as, like, there… I mean, you don’t need to make it so graphical, and, like, maybe there’s… yeah, but anyway, like, I… maybe it’s just about, like, moving the equation around so that you’re able to tell the story better,
263 00:28:56.660 ⇒ 00:28:57.530 Robert Tseng: Yeah.
264 00:28:57.760 ⇒ 00:29:07.949 Amber Lin: And in that case, would I be talking about market share lift, or it… like, what are… what is your equation trying to calculate? Like, what part of…
265 00:29:08.060 ⇒ 00:29:13.269 Amber Lin: Are we still talking about growth, or are we really talking about ROI?
266 00:29:14.670 ⇒ 00:29:18.970 Robert Tseng: Well, you’re talking about, like… Yeah, and this is…
267 00:29:19.410 ⇒ 00:29:22.529 Robert Tseng: this is incrementality to me. This is, like…
268 00:29:22.680 ⇒ 00:29:23.250 Amber Lin: Yeah.
269 00:29:26.660 ⇒ 00:29:39.189 Robert Tseng: Well, so there’s… there’s… there’s… there’s… actually, I think we’re getting… the terms are all getting confused. So there’s… there’s incrementality from existing markets, then there’s penetration from new markets. I think those are, like, the industry standard terms, so we should kind of.
270 00:29:39.190 ⇒ 00:29:40.110 Amber Lin: Work backwards today.
271 00:29:40.110 ⇒ 00:29:41.940 Robert Tseng: from those priors.
272 00:29:41.940 ⇒ 00:29:42.660 Amber Lin: I see.
273 00:29:42.660 ⇒ 00:29:48.610 Robert Tseng: Yeah. I feel like we’re just… we’re… I mean, we’re using words that, like, kind of mean the thing, but, like, it doesn’t fully, like…
274 00:29:48.620 ⇒ 00:29:52.950 Amber Lin: It doesn’t really capture the shape of what it should look like, so…
275 00:29:54.300 ⇒ 00:29:59.370 Robert Tseng: Yeah, I… I don’t know. When’s your call with them?
276 00:30:00.010 ⇒ 00:30:06.280 Amber Lin: Let’s see… That will be… in about 3 hours.
277 00:30:06.760 ⇒ 00:30:08.520 Robert Tseng: Okay.
278 00:30:08.520 ⇒ 00:30:15.600 Amber Lin: I can also take this part out and talk about other stuff. Like, we have enough that we can talk about this later.
279 00:30:16.460 ⇒ 00:30:27.380 Robert Tseng: Yeah, maybe take it out. I mean, I might jump in and try to help you with this, probably after the next stand-up, if I… I mean, I don’t know, I guess we’ll just have to see, but I mean, but yeah, I would say take it out if it’s not ready.
280 00:30:27.520 ⇒ 00:30:28.220 Amber Lin: Yeah.
281 00:30:28.330 ⇒ 00:30:29.380 Amber Lin: Okay. Cool.
282 00:30:29.870 ⇒ 00:30:30.390 Amber Lin: Okay.
283 00:30:31.030 ⇒ 00:30:48.650 Robert Tseng: Yeah, other than that, I think it’s okay. Yeah, overall, like, I feel like if you’re gonna have a lot of different… I don’t want people to be, like, as you’re talking, they’re just, like, looking and reading things, so basic things, like, kind of simplifying the sig digits, like, just do, like, point… point…
284 00:30:48.650 ⇒ 00:30:51.709 Robert Tseng: Like, just one… one significant figure is fine.
285 00:30:51.710 ⇒ 00:31:08.960 Robert Tseng: anything that’s in the millions, instead of flashing all the zeros, you could simplify it. So, just, like, there’s, like, some things that you can do to the spreadsheet to make it look a little more readable, and did you really need to share all the different columns? Like, if it’s okay to just hide, like, to group them, because you only need to show chunks of it, like.
286 00:31:10.230 ⇒ 00:31:22.600 Robert Tseng: Yeah, I think if you’re just getting to a single index number, like the market share number, and then you can hide these next three, like, I would… I would do that as well. So, like, something to kind of condense these things, because it… yeah, I think it…
287 00:31:22.600 ⇒ 00:31:23.310 Amber Lin: Just go a little bit.
288 00:31:23.310 ⇒ 00:31:25.490 Robert Tseng: It’s a little bit too, too heavyweight right now.
289 00:31:25.820 ⇒ 00:31:28.410 Amber Lin: I see. Cool, that’s really great feedback.
290 00:31:28.880 ⇒ 00:31:29.480 Robert Tseng: Okay.
291 00:31:29.850 ⇒ 00:31:42.600 Robert Tseng: Alright, well, I gotta… we gotta go to do the Eden one. I mean, I might move our Eden call then, I think I just want you to have time to… to do this… do this ABC stuff, so… Okay. Yeah, okay, go to the next one.