Meeting Title: Brainforge x Sean Leadership Discussion Date: 2025-12-12 Meeting participants: Uttam Kumaran, Clarence Stone, Sean Alexander
WEBVTT
1 00:01:36.310 ⇒ 00:01:37.740 Clarence Stone: What’s that?
2 00:01:37.920 ⇒ 00:01:38.860 Uttam Kumaran: Bran.
3 00:01:39.560 ⇒ 00:01:42.229 Uttam Kumaran: I got off a very fun call where they’re like.
4 00:01:43.510 ⇒ 00:01:58.629 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, so they’re like, we need to, bring AI into our product, we’re gonna try to… we’re gonna go through a transaction sometime in the next 12 months, and we need, like, an 18-24 month AI, like.
5 00:01:59.370 ⇒ 00:02:13.730 Uttam Kumaran: transformation solution to bring AI into as many places in our product as possible, as part of that capital raise, like, to pitch that. I was like, okay, yeah, like, you… I was like, yeah, we’ll probably work on product requirements, blah blah blah, and then,
6 00:02:13.930 ⇒ 00:02:17.690 Uttam Kumaran: I was like, yeah, what’s the timeline? They’re like, like…
7 00:02:18.340 ⇒ 00:02:21.050 Uttam Kumaran: As soon as, like, we can get that.
8 00:02:21.160 ⇒ 00:02:27.419 Uttam Kumaran: And they’re like, Jan 1… It would be great, I guess, but, like, literally we…
9 00:02:27.420 ⇒ 00:02:32.250 Clarence Stone: That’s what I’m living right now. Everybody wants Scan 1 right now.
10 00:02:33.340 ⇒ 00:02:38.999 Clarence Stone: But that’s a great thing, though. Let’s set up time, you know, throughout the break, and…
11 00:02:39.000 ⇒ 00:02:43.479 Uttam Kumaran: Austin, you should come with me to do these. Like, we would rip it, and they said, all we want is decks.
12 00:02:44.180 ⇒ 00:02:45.610 Clarence Stone: Oh, dude.
13 00:02:46.000 ⇒ 00:02:46.519 Uttam Kumaran: There are… because I.
14 00:02:46.520 ⇒ 00:02:49.350 Clarence Stone: You’re looking at the deckmaster.
15 00:02:49.350 ⇒ 00:03:03.990 Uttam Kumaran: I know, I know, don’t worry. All they, all they said was, like… because I kept being like, okay, like, you need, like, scoping? And I was like, here’s what our team does, we do a lot of strategy work, but then we also develop, we don’t do staff hog, they’re like.
16 00:03:04.130 ⇒ 00:03:09.660 Uttam Kumaran: I was like, so what does this look like? Is this, like, a mix of… I assume this is a mix of decks, and docs, and then what? They’re like…
17 00:03:09.860 ⇒ 00:03:18.850 Uttam Kumaran: just decks. Like, as many as you can get, as realistic as it can be, and as forward-looking as possible.
18 00:03:19.180 ⇒ 00:03:23.270 Uttam Kumaran: I was like… Alright, so yeah, it’s gonna be, like.
19 00:03:23.540 ⇒ 00:03:32.460 Uttam Kumaran: I was like, me and you could probably bang it out in a couple days, probably me, you, and then me, you, and Sam can probably work on it too, so…
20 00:03:34.550 ⇒ 00:03:37.510 Uttam Kumaran: And that’s a referral from, from Mike.
21 00:03:38.220 ⇒ 00:03:39.110 Clarence Stone: Oh, nice!
22 00:03:39.110 ⇒ 00:03:39.890 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
23 00:03:40.130 ⇒ 00:03:41.300 Clarence Stone: What company is this?
24 00:03:41.510 ⇒ 00:03:53.469 Uttam Kumaran: It’s this company called, Vital Interaction. It’s like a health interaction automation platform.
25 00:03:53.960 ⇒ 00:03:54.820 Clarence Stone: Oh, cool.
26 00:03:55.250 ⇒ 00:03:57.860 Uttam Kumaran: Like, a patient engagement automation platform.
27 00:03:59.680 ⇒ 00:04:08.480 Uttam Kumaran: I think they’re just trying to flip… they’re basically… these guys came in, like, I think PE came in, like, 2 years ago, and they’re just trying to… they’re flipping it this year.
28 00:04:10.690 ⇒ 00:04:13.409 Clarence Stone: Gotcha. Okay, yeah, I’ve got ideas, I’m…
29 00:04:13.760 ⇒ 00:04:18.840 Uttam Kumaran: And they’re here in Austin, so if it… we should just go, you know, see them, basically.
30 00:04:19.430 ⇒ 00:04:20.650 Clarence Stone: Yeah, let’s do it.
31 00:04:20.760 ⇒ 00:04:21.750 Clarence Stone: Heck yeah.
32 00:04:22.400 ⇒ 00:04:23.640 Clarence Stone: So doable.
33 00:04:26.300 ⇒ 00:04:27.200 Clarence Stone: recall.
34 00:04:27.200 ⇒ 00:04:30.659 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, Sean said he’s gonna be here in, like, 5 minutes, so…
35 00:04:34.740 ⇒ 00:04:40.030 Clarence Stone: Okay, yeah, this is neat. There’s a lot of things you can do with AI here.
36 00:04:40.460 ⇒ 00:04:43.580 Uttam Kumaran: I’ve never had anyone ask… I’ve never had anyone be like.
37 00:04:43.750 ⇒ 00:04:48.690 Uttam Kumaran: we just need your ideas, and I was like, you don’t want us to fill that all?
38 00:04:49.280 ⇒ 00:04:53.229 Uttam Kumaran: I was like, we can get paid for that?
39 00:04:53.350 ⇒ 00:04:54.340 Uttam Kumaran: I was like…
40 00:04:54.650 ⇒ 00:04:59.389 Uttam Kumaran: You just put me and Clarence in, like, a room for 4 hours, record the whole thing.
41 00:04:59.390 ⇒ 00:05:03.160 Clarence Stone: It’s embarrassing to say, Utah, most of my clients… I think 80% of my book is.
42 00:05:03.160 ⇒ 00:05:08.889 Uttam Kumaran: I know. I know. Some of us aren’t… aren’t so lucky.
43 00:05:08.890 ⇒ 00:05:11.430 Clarence Stone: Oh, you are, you hit it now. You’re in the high margin world.
44 00:05:11.430 ⇒ 00:05:12.210 Uttam Kumaran: I know, I know.
45 00:05:12.210 ⇒ 00:05:13.090 Clarence Stone: I’ve earned it.
46 00:05:13.090 ⇒ 00:05:18.719 Uttam Kumaran: But it’s so crazy, because I almost shot that down by being like, what do you want us to build too many times?
47 00:05:19.380 ⇒ 00:05:21.440 Uttam Kumaran: Yep.
48 00:05:21.630 ⇒ 00:05:27.829 Clarence Stone: And I think from there, you can start positioning which parts of the work you want to win. So just as a.
49 00:05:27.830 ⇒ 00:05:29.510 Uttam Kumaran: That’s exactly it, yeah.
50 00:05:29.510 ⇒ 00:05:33.400 Clarence Stone: On Monday, I’m going in to help EY close that deal.
51 00:05:33.790 ⇒ 00:05:38.700 Clarence Stone: So, I’m flying over to Dallas on the 15th. They called me last minute, yes, like, on Tuesday.
52 00:05:38.700 ⇒ 00:05:40.809 Uttam Kumaran: I saw it on your calendar, I think, or something, yeah.
53 00:05:40.810 ⇒ 00:05:43.069 Clarence Stone: We need you to… we need you to book your flight.
54 00:05:43.370 ⇒ 00:06:00.889 Clarence Stone: And… and I was like, hey, so, like, what’s up? Client asked about you again. I was like, oh, okay, yeah, sure. So I’m going down there Monday and half of Tuesday, and I… so, just… just so you know where my head is at, there’s a lot of… of, work with Snowflake.
55 00:06:01.050 ⇒ 00:06:04.379 Clarence Stone: So, and I know EYs can train on those, like.
56 00:06:04.490 ⇒ 00:06:17.859 Clarence Stone: types of skill sets. So, the first thing I’m gonna do is, like, hey, Claire, you’ve asked a lot of questions about, like, Snowflake infrastructure, like, what are the benefits and how it can work in terms of, like, a vision for other, you know, like.
57 00:06:17.860 ⇒ 00:06:30.150 Clarence Stone: clients as well, like, I think you should talk to you, Tom. Like, just have a conversation with him, because he knows about data way more than I do. Like, this is what I keep telling, you know, the organization. I’m a UX developer.
58 00:06:32.510 ⇒ 00:06:33.130 Uttam Kumaran: John.
59 00:06:33.310 ⇒ 00:06:35.120 Sean Alexander: Hey, how’s it going? So sorry for running late.
60 00:06:35.660 ⇒ 00:06:39.360 Uttam Kumaran: All good, all good. Thanks for taking the call on a Friday.
61 00:06:39.680 ⇒ 00:06:40.780 Sean Alexander: Yeah, of course.
62 00:06:41.280 ⇒ 00:06:42.449 Sean Alexander: Where are you?
63 00:06:42.450 ⇒ 00:06:43.880 Uttam Kumaran: Where are you in the world?
64 00:06:44.060 ⇒ 00:06:45.320 Sean Alexander: So,
65 00:06:45.650 ⇒ 00:06:58.720 Sean Alexander: Fun fact, I’m actually city hopping right now. You know, with my work, it allows me to be fully remote, so… I was in Austin earlier, and now I’m in Miami. I’m gonna head to San Juan next month.
66 00:06:59.410 ⇒ 00:07:04.590 Uttam Kumaran: Oh, nice, awesome. Well, yeah, I’m in Austin, Clarence is in San Antonio, so that’s awesome.
67 00:07:05.430 ⇒ 00:07:10.400 Sean Alexander: Awesome, yeah, beautiful cities. I went, like, the… probably my first time in those two cities.
68 00:07:11.030 ⇒ 00:07:12.670 Uttam Kumaran: Nice.
69 00:07:12.920 ⇒ 00:07:20.820 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I mean, I’m glad, you know, to be connected. I sent a note over, sort of, like, a little bit about the company, but we’re just…
70 00:07:20.930 ⇒ 00:07:24.319 Uttam Kumaran: Starting to kind of call people that are…
71 00:07:24.320 ⇒ 00:07:44.550 Uttam Kumaran: you know, just interested in moving from, you know, a kind of a classic role in, like, big consulting to, you know, something a little bit more specialized, but also sort of, like, with a much different, like, operating structure. We’re having just conversations with people, kind of, like, gauging interest, but also sort of forming, like, what a…
72 00:07:44.550 ⇒ 00:07:49.319 Uttam Kumaran: what a role could look like. I’m happy to tell you a lot about my business.
73 00:07:49.350 ⇒ 00:08:03.519 Uttam Kumaran: And… and, you know, would love to… for Clarence to also give an introduction, and then it’s kind of a casual conversation. I’m completely open book, so any questions that come up about me or the business, more than happy to… to answer, but maybe just, like, a
74 00:08:03.520 ⇒ 00:08:12.489 Uttam Kumaran: by a brief intro, so my name’s Utam, I run Brainforge. We’re a data and AI consultancy. We have about 16 employees,
75 00:08:12.640 ⇒ 00:08:16.750 Uttam Kumaran: And we are primarily based here in the States, and we kind of team
76 00:08:16.980 ⇒ 00:08:29.170 Uttam Kumaran: here in the U.S, and, like, kind of a little bit everywhere. We start… my background’s in data engineering. I worked as a data engineer, led data teams, led product at a data company, before starting Brainforge.
77 00:08:29.260 ⇒ 00:08:37.989 Uttam Kumaran: Our primary bread and butter is data work, but we leverage AI a ton to start the business and run the business.
78 00:08:37.990 ⇒ 00:08:55.050 Uttam Kumaran: And naturally, that allowed us to also start selling AI services, because we learned the hard way how to run, you know, an AI-native company, and all the things that kind of go into that. And yeah, we sort of slowly scaled. It’s a completely bootstrap business.
79 00:08:55.050 ⇒ 00:08:56.050 Uttam Kumaran: So…
80 00:08:56.050 ⇒ 00:09:13.020 Uttam Kumaran: just from, sort of, zero all the way now, to, like, a few million in run rate revenue, and, you know, across, like, you know, maybe 10 to 15 clients. We’re just growing really fast, and so we’re trying to think about the next operating model for the company.
81 00:09:13.020 ⇒ 00:09:16.370 Uttam Kumaran: To bring in, you know, a little bit of a class of leadership.
82 00:09:17.520 ⇒ 00:09:25.069 Uttam Kumaran: Folks that are, like, interested in, you know, running a, you know, either a service line or a set of customers.
83 00:09:25.070 ⇒ 00:09:36.069 Uttam Kumaran: But doing that, you know, with a lot of AI tools and delivering outcomes for clients faster that are, you know, higher quality than, you know, the competition.
84 00:09:36.070 ⇒ 00:09:52.180 Uttam Kumaran: And so that’s a lot of, like, what we’re thinking about. I feel like the market reception to our work and services has been great, and we are growing too fast, and if we don’t hire great people, I will have to turn down business, which, you know, I’ve never done, and I don’t even know
85 00:09:52.180 ⇒ 00:09:58.840 Uttam Kumaran: I don’t even know how to do that, really. And so, yeah, I think that’s sort of where our mindset is, is
86 00:09:58.840 ⇒ 00:10:14.680 Uttam Kumaran: My business partner and I have led, you know, most engagements, and we have a great crew of engineers and mid-level folks, but, you know, we’re lacking, I think, a lot of, like, senior leadership that wants to own accounts and own sets of accounts and own outcomes.
87 00:10:14.970 ⇒ 00:10:22.229 Uttam Kumaran: And sort of, yeah, that’s, like, where we’re at. Maybe, Clarence, I’ll let you give an introduction, and then maybe kind of tee off, like, where we want to take this convo.
88 00:10:23.090 ⇒ 00:10:25.940 Clarence Stone: Sure, yeah, hey, Sean, great to meet you.
89 00:10:25.940 ⇒ 00:10:50.930 Clarence Stone: So, I come from a consulting background. I was at EY for over 6 years as the Director of Product Innovation, building teams that are creating solutions at super cutting-edge things like blockchain and eventually AI. And this year recently, I left EY, and I’m so happy to be working with Brainforge because they have such a unique model that is adaptable and quickly responsive.
90 00:10:50.930 ⇒ 00:11:15.060 Clarence Stone: responding to the dynamic environments here, and, you know, their uniqueness is really the huge focus on creating high-quality products as, like, an internal product operation, and externally giving clients that all-star, you know, consulting-type experience where, you know, they’re helping them actually solve deep problems, not just selling AI agents or automations, right? So, that piece has been great, and, you know.
91 00:11:15.060 ⇒ 00:11:23.599 Clarence Stone: After seeing the success of that, you know, building out, you know, capabilities, teams, and op model, is really my focus here to,
92 00:11:23.680 ⇒ 00:11:29.340 Clarence Stone: Help with the new business that’s coming, and all the new opportunities that are ahead for the next year.
93 00:11:30.700 ⇒ 00:11:46.230 Sean Alexander: That’s awesome. Thank you guys so much for introducing, yourselves. I’m honestly excited to hear everything I’m hearing right now. Apologies for the background noise, I’ll be on camera and sitting down in about 10 minutes. Okay. I’m getting back from the office today.
94 00:11:46.750 ⇒ 00:11:51.210 Sean Alexander: But yeah, no, my background is I’ve been at Deloitte now for…
95 00:11:51.650 ⇒ 00:12:02.369 Sean Alexander: a year and a half, and then I specifically do a lot about tech strategy implementation, so anywhere from cloud infrastructure to… now I’m shifting towards application development.
96 00:12:02.510 ⇒ 00:12:07.810 Sean Alexander: And on top of that, what I do directly with clients, I also do a lot about hybrid cells work, so…
97 00:12:08.000 ⇒ 00:12:17.470 Sean Alexander: some of the things I was just touching upon really resonates with me, in terms of, you know, Deloitte has a lot of internal products and assets that we sell to clients, and then
98 00:12:17.580 ⇒ 00:12:26.840 Sean Alexander: I kind of leverage that, how do we go to market with those assets, along with our AWS and other large partners as well. The thing you’re saying kind of resonates in those sense.
99 00:12:27.160 ⇒ 00:12:36.509 Sean Alexander: And yeah, I do some other here and there, kind of throughout the firm, so excited to see… to hear more about y’all and see if there’s any, you know, connective tissues there.
100 00:12:38.010 ⇒ 00:12:56.000 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I’m kind of interested in, like, what your, what kind of projects you’re working on on the analytics side. I mean, it’s awesome to hear that you do have, sort of, involvement on the go-to-market and the sales side, but, like, what kind of got you into, like, the data world, and, like, what are some of the types of, like, projects that… that, you know, you’re doing on the analytics side?
101 00:12:56.220 ⇒ 00:13:03.329 Sean Alexander: Yeah, I will say that I’m highly delivery and functional focus, so I don’t… I’m not tech-slash-data
102 00:13:03.420 ⇒ 00:13:20.799 Sean Alexander: you know, deep into that world, but I’m savvy enough to help sell that, you know, to really, I think, to the client side. So, for example, like, we were doing… I think cloud infrastructure, as an operating model for Cloud and Ginny Mae, so, you know, all this is public, and it’s, you know, federal contract is public information.
103 00:13:20.860 ⇒ 00:13:24.889 Sean Alexander: But, you know, I would spend, like, half a million a month.
104 00:13:25.070 ⇒ 00:13:30.999 Sean Alexander: So I was helping to organize a lot of, you know, a team of 30, 40 engineers across infrastructure and application teams.
105 00:13:31.090 ⇒ 00:13:49.240 Sean Alexander: So a lot of times, I’d focus on, like, DevOps, or then shift gears to a new tech implementation if we need a new system, new piece of technology we’re incorporating into the environment. And so, that’s where my strengths come in, is, like, kind of piecing together, bringing the right people to the table, and also delivering to the client.
106 00:13:49.310 ⇒ 00:14:03.049 Sean Alexander: So I’m… I would say I personally have, you know, strong familiarity with one specific data, you know, data strategy or kind of technology, but more so focused on the delivery side and functional side.
107 00:14:04.030 ⇒ 00:14:04.700 Uttam Kumaran: Right.
108 00:14:04.960 ⇒ 00:14:12.519 Uttam Kumaran: I guess I’m… I’m interested in, like, where, like, what you’ve enjoyed about Deloitte so far, like.
109 00:14:12.520 ⇒ 00:14:13.130 Sean Alexander: Yeah.
110 00:14:13.130 ⇒ 00:14:18.020 Uttam Kumaran: what have you liked? And then, my obvious next question is gonna be, what don’t you like, or what you think of.
111 00:14:18.020 ⇒ 00:14:19.120 Sean Alexander: different.
112 00:14:24.120 ⇒ 00:14:26.840 Sean Alexander: I’ll give it 2 seconds, go with our…
113 00:14:27.460 ⇒ 00:14:28.720 Uttam Kumaran: You’re good, you’re good.
114 00:14:37.670 ⇒ 00:14:40.359 Sean Alexander: Okay, sorry, the thought track is not why.
115 00:14:40.490 ⇒ 00:14:44.899 Sean Alexander: I think what I love about Deloitte is, shaping my own portfolio of business.
116 00:14:45.090 ⇒ 00:14:51.880 Sean Alexander: So, within the firm, I do some of our work within investments for, you know, my offering portfolio, so within
117 00:14:52.070 ⇒ 00:15:07.069 Sean Alexander: you know, the team that does strategy, I’m able to talk about our talent, our trial model, how are we staffing people, how are we investing in different programs. So I’m glad that outside of my client work, I’m able to see how the firm operates and really get close to that.
118 00:15:07.120 ⇒ 00:15:19.969 Sean Alexander: And then even within my own client work, I’m slowly carving out, like, you know, I’m very familiar with these clients, with this infrastructure that then is now getting translated into how I support application development work.
119 00:15:20.060 ⇒ 00:15:23.490 Sean Alexander: So within my account and projects, I’m able to kind of
120 00:15:23.660 ⇒ 00:15:26.949 Sean Alexander: build my own brand, of work, I would say.
121 00:15:28.890 ⇒ 00:15:32.119 Uttam Kumaran: Nice. Clarence, what do you think?
122 00:15:32.490 ⇒ 00:15:44.820 Clarence Stone: Yeah, so, Sean, I’m really interested in sort of, like, where you want to take your career from there, right? You’ve clearly got a lot of, experience with
123 00:15:44.830 ⇒ 00:16:00.320 Clarence Stone: you know, high-touch communications with clients, you’re definitely taking part, from what I hear, like, from your description, in the strategy and planning of solutions for the client. Is there anything else that you would… I guess, one, which part itself.
124 00:16:00.320 ⇒ 00:16:00.720 Sean Alexander: Yeah.
125 00:16:00.720 ⇒ 00:16:06.010 Clarence Stone: you like doing, and two, you know, where do you want to grow from there? Is there any other things that you’re interested in?
126 00:16:06.250 ⇒ 00:16:14.299 Sean Alexander: Yeah, no, I think I kind of took this call because I’m, long-term interested in, like, some startup entrepreneurial things. You know, I definitely don’t…
127 00:16:14.310 ⇒ 00:16:32.360 Sean Alexander: you know, my thing has always been, like, a matrix analogy. You know, blue pill is stay at the firm, become a partner. It’s not easy, but it’s simple. You know, one of my initiatives I do at the firm is helping, Asian senior managers go out for partners. I’m very familiar with the promotion process inside the firm.
128 00:16:32.360 ⇒ 00:16:46.039 Sean Alexander: So for me, you know, I could see myself staying here, but the red pill for me is, like, really getting the itch to, like, explore outside industry, startups, kind of what that looks like, and I think what you guys are saying is kind of a really good adjacent, you know, entrepreneurial experience.
129 00:16:46.040 ⇒ 00:16:52.889 Sean Alexander: That sounds interesting to me. Yeah, you know, still exploring outside, of the Hermitage right now as well.
130 00:16:54.070 ⇒ 00:17:12.010 Clarence Stone: Cool! Yeah, I love that perspective, right? And to be completely honest with you, as a senior manager when I was at UI, that is a decision that kind of changed, you know, based on the week, the day, maybe by the minute, whether or not I’m still interested in being a partner.
131 00:17:12.010 ⇒ 00:17:12.819 Sean Alexander: Yeah.
132 00:17:12.829 ⇒ 00:17:33.099 Clarence Stone: I want to take that red pill and explore other places. And so, just from my perspective, like, the reason why I had, you know, just picked the alternative was, you know, I don’t know how things are at Deloitte, but at EY, I didn’t see the firm quickly adapting to the environment where, you know, AI tooling was readily available.
133 00:17:33.100 ⇒ 00:17:49.290 Clarence Stone: People were able to go out and experiment with different solutions and actually bring those to the market. You know, we talk a lot about it, we like to say we do it, but there’s a lot of red tape and a lot of requests and approvals in between, so I don’t know, you know, how you feel about, you know.
134 00:17:49.290 ⇒ 00:17:49.630 Sean Alexander: Yeah.
135 00:17:49.630 ⇒ 00:18:04.740 Clarence Stone: challenges, right? And because one of the things that I want to make sure that I do during my time at Brainforge is making sure none of that stuff exists. Yeah. We pave a really great environment that is free from, kind of, the organizational weight that exists in existing companies today.
136 00:18:05.240 ⇒ 00:18:18.689 Sean Alexander: Yeah, that definitely sounds exciting, it’s something I think I do as anyone. You know, sometimes bouncing between, like, a corporate structure versus, like, having the agility to move faster, especially given the fact, you know, tech is moving light speeds ahead on top of that.
137 00:18:20.800 ⇒ 00:18:24.009 Clarence Stone: Yeah, and hey, by the way, do you know Kelsey?
138 00:18:24.350 ⇒ 00:18:25.969 Clarence Stone: You went to Georgia Tech together?
139 00:18:25.970 ⇒ 00:18:26.880 Sean Alexander: Last name?
140 00:18:27.290 ⇒ 00:18:28.520 Clarence Stone: Fally?
141 00:18:28.800 ⇒ 00:18:32.400 Sean Alexander: Yes, we were birthday twins. We celebrate our birthdays every year for 2-3 years together.
142 00:18:32.400 ⇒ 00:18:33.579 Clarence Stone: Haha, no way!
143 00:18:34.020 ⇒ 00:18:39.930 Clarence Stone: So, funny, funny story, Kelsey worked with me, she was on my team at EY.
144 00:18:41.880 ⇒ 00:18:50.809 Sean Alexander: Oh, no way, okay, yeah, there’s a bunch of EY people, from Tax, and I… do you know if she’s still there or not? I haven’t actually kept up, in touch with her for a while.
145 00:18:50.960 ⇒ 00:18:53.810 Clarence Stone: Yeah, so she’s actually in Austin now, like, really soon.
146 00:18:53.810 ⇒ 00:18:54.560 Sean Alexander: Oh, wow, yeah.
147 00:18:54.560 ⇒ 00:19:07.950 Clarence Stone: And she actually moved to a national team. So the team I was on was focused specifically on wealth asset management, PEs, hedge funds. So she got out of that world and is delivering AI for, you know, a broader set of clients.
148 00:19:08.280 ⇒ 00:19:12.310 Sean Alexander: Gotcha here. That’s awesome, yeah. Always a small world.
149 00:19:12.310 ⇒ 00:19:13.950 Clarence Stone: Yeah, super small world!
150 00:19:16.580 ⇒ 00:19:19.269 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, Sean, any questions you have so far hearing any of this?
151 00:19:19.270 ⇒ 00:19:33.930 Sean Alexander: Yeah. No, no, everything’s exciting, makes sense. I guess, like, we’d love to see, kind of, like, the next steps, or anything else you guys have kind of had, you know, when reaching out, or also, like, what stood out, I guess, in my experiences that I can maybe also talk to you as well.
152 00:19:34.440 ⇒ 00:19:43.119 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I guess, you know, I don’t come from a consulting background at all, like, I am a… I’m an engineer, I worked at a bunch of product companies before this.
153 00:19:43.120 ⇒ 00:20:00.859 Uttam Kumaran: So for me, like, when I built, you know, a consulting company, we built it in, you know, honestly, like, externally, we do consulting work, like, just like everybody else, but internally, we’re operating much closer to a product company, in that there’s a much, like, bigger platform approach to the way we’re deploying and thinking about services.
154 00:20:00.860 ⇒ 00:20:13.210 Uttam Kumaran: And additionally, we… everything here is… is AI. Like, end-to-end, we are speeding up almost every process in the company via AI. And sort of, I’m just kind of interested to hear about, like.
155 00:20:13.210 ⇒ 00:20:25.169 Uttam Kumaran: you know, what you were thinking about in your career, like, were you gonna… were you thinking about sticking around at Deloitte? Were you… are you thinking about, like, moving to a smaller consultancy? Like, how do you… how do you feel
156 00:20:25.170 ⇒ 00:20:27.660 Uttam Kumaran: You know, about your goals, and like, what do you think?
157 00:20:28.460 ⇒ 00:20:39.039 Sean Alexander: Yeah, overall, you know, I think that I’ve learned a lot at Deloitte, and you know, I think the point of when I leave Deloitte is to learn something better for stop learning.
158 00:20:39.300 ⇒ 00:20:49.880 Sean Alexander: You know, I’m still kind of shape, learning the craft of both tech delivery and also consulting. What I think is appealing to what you guys are saying is.
159 00:20:50.080 ⇒ 00:21:04.809 Sean Alexander: the ownership at a high level, you know, at Deloitte, we’re such a big firm that you get drowned out, or, you know, it’s hard sometimes to even have, you know, direct ownership over a specific process or business and accounts.
160 00:21:05.060 ⇒ 00:21:10.990 Sean Alexander: And so, I think, definitely am considering, you know, smaller consultancies for the long term.
161 00:21:11.130 ⇒ 00:21:12.670 Sean Alexander: Yeah.
162 00:21:14.760 ⇒ 00:21:26.530 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I guess I’m also interested in, like, if you were to, you know, be running, like, your own engagements, or thinking about running, like, a portfolio, like, what do you think you would do differently than, like, the team at Deloitte’s, like, doing now?
163 00:21:27.280 ⇒ 00:21:29.060 Sean Alexander: Yeah,
164 00:21:31.770 ⇒ 00:21:45.210 Sean Alexander: I don’t know how to come… so I guess, like, just to provide some context, and feel free to let me know if I’m, you know, providing too much context. I think, for better or for worse, the way that Deloitte does staffing is that you guys staff yourself, and you’re actually encouraged to go
165 00:21:45.210 ⇒ 00:21:56.399 Sean Alexander: across accounts, and kind of build your own portfolio, but then I think on the flip side, that then also leads to a lot of people just getting lost in the shuffle. You know, every year, people switch accounts, projects.
166 00:21:56.480 ⇒ 00:22:14.790 Sean Alexander: And so for some people like myself, you know, I’m intentionally building experiences, so, you know, I’m actually actively trying to go internal. So what that means is, you know, I might become the chief of staff of one of our key product teams, or the chief of staff, or go-to-market. So I’m really excited to kind of leave
167 00:22:14.790 ⇒ 00:22:21.519 Sean Alexander: Applier work soon to go towards more internal? And how does such a big firm deliver across so many sectors?
168 00:22:21.690 ⇒ 00:22:26.860 Sean Alexander: I think… sorry, to answer your question, you know, I’m very passionate about some of this stuff.
169 00:22:26.890 ⇒ 00:22:40.969 Sean Alexander: I think that I would do differently is kind of be more intentional in how we do talent development, you know, working with them to identify what sectors, what kind of work they like to do, and then really training them up in that to kind of
170 00:22:40.970 ⇒ 00:22:55.849 Sean Alexander: stick around longer. I think at Deloitte, a lot of people just get, like I said, lost in that shuffle, and just take a project when they can, and not really, you know, intentionally building out their portfolio of work, and building out their skill sets. That then kind of aligns with the overall org mission.
171 00:22:57.080 ⇒ 00:23:09.569 Uttam Kumaran: What do you, like, what is still interesting to you about splitting between, like, sales and, like, still being on the delivery side? Like, I think you’re the first person we’ve talked to that has that sort of split.
172 00:23:09.570 ⇒ 00:23:10.190 Sean Alexander: Yeah.
173 00:23:10.190 ⇒ 00:23:16.850 Uttam Kumaran: I don’t know… I don’t know anything about that world much, so I don’t know if that’s traditional or not, but that’s how my time is split.
174 00:23:16.850 ⇒ 00:23:17.730 Sean Alexander: Yeah, yeah.
175 00:23:17.730 ⇒ 00:23:25.610 Uttam Kumaran: I do find that really, really interesting, that that’s… that you’re able to bridge both of those, knowing that I think most people come from one side or the other, right?
176 00:23:25.610 ⇒ 00:23:26.190 Sean Alexander: Yeah, yeah.
177 00:23:26.190 ⇒ 00:23:29.959 Uttam Kumaran: The sales, I think some people come from the other way. Yeah, I’m curious.
178 00:23:29.960 ⇒ 00:23:30.440 Sean Alexander: Yeah.
179 00:23:30.440 ⇒ 00:23:38.570 Uttam Kumaran: Think about that split. Are you… are you enjoying that? Do you think, like, okay, actually, it would just be best to just stay only purely, like, go-to-market?
180 00:23:40.250 ⇒ 00:23:56.209 Sean Alexander: I think for me, to be truly tied down, so at Deloitte, that split only becomes evident when you’re a senior manager. But I’m excited that as an analyst, you know, I’m supporting direct, you know, our account strategy when it comes to partnership alliances, sales tactics.
181 00:23:56.290 ⇒ 00:24:13.419 Sean Alexander: And I think that if you truly love consultancy and the work we do, there’s no need to pick one or the other. I think, for example, like, if you love… you truly are understanding your clients well, then you can understand how to better sell to them, what their needs are, how to upsell them in some instances.
182 00:24:13.420 ⇒ 00:24:22.379 Sean Alexander: But then also deliver on those promises. You know, I would hate to be one of our partners that all she does is sell work, but then once she sells out work.
183 00:24:22.380 ⇒ 00:24:41.700 Sean Alexander: she doesn’t do any delivery, so I talked to her about it, I actually got the chance to shadow her day from 8 a.m. to 8pm, and seeing that, like, she sometimes gets frustrated with, like, oh wow, why are we dropping the ball on this delivery, when we sold something else, or, you know, it’s not on part of what we had sold. So for me, it’s like, I like to see from end to end.
184 00:24:41.780 ⇒ 00:24:48.180 Sean Alexander: Especially with accounts that have longer relationships, you know, it just… for me, it’s a natural… natural combination.
185 00:24:49.450 ⇒ 00:24:50.330 Uttam Kumaran: Nice.
186 00:24:50.330 ⇒ 00:24:52.910 Sean Alexander: I also am curious to get y’all’s thoughts in terms of…
187 00:24:53.040 ⇒ 00:25:06.750 Sean Alexander: pricing. It’s something that, you know, across industry is blended financing. You know, sometimes, you know, especially with the GenTech AI coming in, or other forms of AI, you know.
188 00:25:07.070 ⇒ 00:25:14.119 Sean Alexander: You know, value-driven, pricing, I think, is very interesting, you know, some of the hybrid
189 00:25:14.310 ⇒ 00:25:23.400 Sean Alexander: Financially we do, for example, with the state level, is we might sell, some of our products to state agencies to use, like, for example, like, permitting.
190 00:25:23.610 ⇒ 00:25:38.000 Sean Alexander: And then, on top of, you know, a lower, you know, way more cheaper product costs and subscription costs to the state, we then charge a percentage on every procurement the solution then, you know, goes through approval process and whatnot.
191 00:25:38.070 ⇒ 00:25:47.270 Sean Alexander: I’m curious to see how you guys see, you know, for players like yourself, kind of fit into that shift towards value-based pricing.
192 00:25:47.880 ⇒ 00:26:02.180 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, that’s a great question. I think about this, all the time. You know, I think, the hourly… like, using hour as a measure of outcome is, like, kind of, like, the dumbest thing. And I think that
193 00:26:02.340 ⇒ 00:26:11.190 Uttam Kumaran: It’s, like, lazy, the fact that we arrived there, because you can measure outcomes and impacts, pretty well, and if you can’t, then
194 00:26:11.340 ⇒ 00:26:21.079 Uttam Kumaran: like, you should just get paid to drive towards that first. And so I actually think that a company like ours is driving way more value than we recoup in fees.
195 00:26:21.080 ⇒ 00:26:26.869 Uttam Kumaran: But I don’t think that charging hourly is, like, a fair way, or, like.
196 00:26:26.870 ⇒ 00:26:43.170 Uttam Kumaran: a reasonable way to exchange value. So we kind of have… we’ve been… but other thing, it’s also, like, tough, because there’s an expectation in the industry that, like, you charge hourly. And so for us, there’s, like, two ways we’re thinking about it. One is we’ve moved a lot of clients
197 00:26:43.200 ⇒ 00:26:47.629 Uttam Kumaran: towards… almost like subscribing to a team.
198 00:26:47.630 ⇒ 00:26:47.980 Sean Alexander: I mean…
199 00:26:47.980 ⇒ 00:27:05.810 Uttam Kumaran: Our team runs like a team does, where we have goals for the quarter, and we have budgets that we manage, part of what go to our team, which is great, because I can… if I get work done faster, then we just make more margin. And also, we get to bill up front, right, for the month coming up.
200 00:27:05.810 ⇒ 00:27:22.710 Uttam Kumaran: So there’s, like, cash flow benefits for that, too. Once we get into enterprise, though, it’s not so… it’s harder. I don’t have as much leverage. I would like to tell a story about what… about found revenue, right? I would like to say the analytics work that we’re developing
201 00:27:22.710 ⇒ 00:27:39.870 Uttam Kumaran: is allowing you to drive, you know, $2 million in savings, and so we want to price towards a percentage of that. I would love to do that. That’s totally fair. We found the money. And I think most CEOs that I talk to, who we’re selling to, are actually okay with that engagement, they’ve just never been approached
202 00:27:39.940 ⇒ 00:27:48.050 Uttam Kumaran: with that before, and it is operationally challenging. Like, we have to measure that, and we have to really agree on that.
203 00:27:48.610 ⇒ 00:28:07.370 Uttam Kumaran: I think we will… I think our firm will drive towards getting to outcome-based pricing, and being… being a lot more, because I… over time, the widget… every widget we develop, we will start developing it so fast that it’s, like, if I price hourly, I would be shooting… I would be in the same spot that…
204 00:28:07.380 ⇒ 00:28:17.629 Uttam Kumaran: That y’all are in, you know? And so, it’s tough, but it’s, like, it’s more of, like, I just didn’t build the company on that. I always built it on, like, trying to pay for outcomes.
205 00:28:17.850 ⇒ 00:28:27.510 Uttam Kumaran: And I know for a fact that we are underpriced, and we are undercharging for the outcomes that we’re delivering, which means there is some innovation for us to do in the way we price.
206 00:28:27.710 ⇒ 00:28:36.270 Uttam Kumaran: that is something that’s up… it’s open in the air. Sometimes you may get a client that is interested in that, sometimes you get people that are like, I can’t get that through procurement, so just…
207 00:28:36.270 ⇒ 00:28:37.250 Sean Alexander: Yeah.
208 00:28:37.250 ⇒ 00:28:38.790 Uttam Kumaran: it the normal way, and so…
209 00:28:39.180 ⇒ 00:28:49.259 Uttam Kumaran: I don’t know at what point it will completely change, but I like being a consulting partner for clients that we are open to that, because I don’t mind
210 00:28:49.460 ⇒ 00:28:56.940 Uttam Kumaran: I know we’re not gonna fail, I know we’re gonna deliver, so I would rather it be a win-win pricing versus
211 00:28:57.070 ⇒ 00:29:02.440 Uttam Kumaran: Okay, it’s just… hourly rates for these roles, you know, that’s… I don’t think that’s,
212 00:29:02.750 ⇒ 00:29:04.640 Uttam Kumaran: Fair for both parties, you know?
213 00:29:05.650 ⇒ 00:29:06.869 Sean Alexander: No, I definitely agree there.
214 00:29:07.560 ⇒ 00:29:22.259 Uttam Kumaran: But, like, it’s hard. I don’t look left to right for that, like, I don’t… I don’t have any inspiration for this problem from anybody in the market. So we are just trying things, with what I can afford to try on, you know?
215 00:29:22.730 ⇒ 00:29:24.020 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
216 00:29:24.580 ⇒ 00:29:28.419 Sean Alexander: That makes sense. I am also curious, so it seems like, you know.
217 00:29:28.650 ⇒ 00:29:33.889 Sean Alexander: I’ve actually never really talked to a small consultancy through this lens. I’m curious to get y’all’s thoughts, you know.
218 00:29:34.050 ⇒ 00:29:53.979 Sean Alexander: Big Four and other bigger firms typically leverage U.S, you know, some India teams, because they expect a higher margin, you know, there’s a lot of things that go into overhead. You know, with a smaller firm, do you guys benefit, you know, do you guys leverage India? Do you guys not use it as much, given the fact that you’re able to have, you know, smaller margins, quote-unquote?
219 00:29:54.020 ⇒ 00:29:57.690 Sean Alexander: What was that, you know, how did that March just kind of look like.
220 00:29:57.690 ⇒ 00:29:58.050 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
221 00:29:58.050 ⇒ 00:29:58.950 Sean Alexander: firm.
222 00:29:58.950 ⇒ 00:30:14.790 Uttam Kumaran: Like, at a big company, and this is my perspective, at a big company, like Deloitte, they run out of options to expand margin, and so you do everything, right? You bundle, you lower margins, you increase top-line rates, you do everything. For us.
223 00:30:14.820 ⇒ 00:30:23.899 Uttam Kumaran: We don’t need to do that. We’ve always monetized expertise, and our expertise, I know what the price is here in the States for great data people, and so…
224 00:30:24.230 ⇒ 00:30:32.300 Uttam Kumaran: We’ve never… I will never try to, compete at the 40, 100.
225 00:30:32.300 ⇒ 00:30:45.600 Uttam Kumaran: type projects. Maybe when, like, maybe when I was first starting, and I was like, I just need to get some money in. But we don’t compete at the bottom level at all. We don’t do any staff augmentation or, like, dev shop type work.
226 00:30:45.800 ⇒ 00:31:00.220 Uttam Kumaran: Do we have people in India or in places that are cost advantageous? Yes. Did I hire them because of that? No. Like, they’re just great people. Does it work out that they’re typically cheaper? Yeah. But, I…
227 00:31:00.220 ⇒ 00:31:19.270 Uttam Kumaran: I would… I would get totally… these days, we can afford to have all U.S. talent. In fact, I think we’re gonna… we’re gonna… because of how fast we move, and our talent and AI and data, I’m gonna charge a premium, right? And so I’m gonna do the opposite, which is I’m gonna charge more money, right? Because the demand is so high.
228 00:31:19.540 ⇒ 00:31:23.790 Uttam Kumaran: For this type of work. Like, I think the supply side.
229 00:31:23.940 ⇒ 00:31:39.280 Uttam Kumaran: is not there. Like, if a company like ours, with very little brand awareness, just early in the market, is doing this well, I don’t attribute… I don’t attribute a lot… I attribute some of it to skill, but a lot of it shows that there’s a huge supply problem for people that can solve these things.
230 00:31:39.280 ⇒ 00:31:45.290 Uttam Kumaran: Which means you just raise… we’re gonna raise prices until a logical ceiling, you know? And I don’t… so I don’t… so…
231 00:31:45.290 ⇒ 00:32:02.080 Uttam Kumaran: Long story short, there are different ways if we need to spin… there’s a velocity thing, which is, like, if we just need a bunch of people to get up in a pod and, like, attack a client, sure, but we don’t necessarily look at, like, offshore… offshore talent as, like, a…
232 00:32:02.080 ⇒ 00:32:08.530 Uttam Kumaran: clear strategy to win. I think it will… I think at some point, we can have a discussion about, like.
233 00:32:08.740 ⇒ 00:32:16.080 Uttam Kumaran: you know, about margins and, like, the impact of that, but I also think our work is much more strategic, the pace is.
234 00:32:16.080 ⇒ 00:32:16.410 Sean Alexander: True.
235 00:32:16.410 ⇒ 00:32:21.080 Uttam Kumaran: And we’re built of partnerships with clients. We…
236 00:32:21.080 ⇒ 00:32:38.699 Uttam Kumaran: being US-based really, really helps make that a reality, you know, and so there’s gonna be things that we can’t achieve if we have everybody remote, you know? But I think people are surprised to hear that, like, I think for the most part, people call me, and they’re like, oh yeah, I assume you just have, like, a bunch of people in, like, India, and I’m like.
237 00:32:38.700 ⇒ 00:32:41.969 Uttam Kumaran: No, like, most of our company is, like, here, like, New York, LA… Yeah.
238 00:32:41.980 ⇒ 00:32:46.929 Uttam Kumaran: Because I… I will… I… we’re remote, because I don’t want to go to an office.
239 00:32:47.040 ⇒ 00:32:54.670 Uttam Kumaran: But, like, we’re… we’re… that’s mostly the reason, is that, like, I just hire smart people wherever I can find them.
240 00:32:55.190 ⇒ 00:33:06.570 Sean Alexander: Yeah, definitely makes sense, and I think people also forget, like, you know, having her experiences on the India side for Deloitte, we oftentimes, you know, the quality just isn’t there, even if.
241 00:33:06.570 ⇒ 00:33:11.479 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, yeah, it’s like, and I can’t… I can’t fail for a client, like, we… we can’t…
242 00:33:11.640 ⇒ 00:33:15.900 Uttam Kumaran: I am… there’s no way where I can be like, cool, like, pass you off to, like.
243 00:33:15.920 ⇒ 00:33:33.079 Uttam Kumaran: people that don’t turn their videos on, don’t understand. And also, a lot of our work is people, and it’s understanding culture, and there’s just some things that you can’t relate to. In fact, most of the people that are outside of the U.S, they were actually here before, or here when I hired them.
244 00:33:33.080 ⇒ 00:33:46.710 Uttam Kumaran: They just moved. So it’s like, yeah, I don’t know, I don’t… I don’t know if that’ll be, like, a primary strategy for us in terms of winning. I think our winning will come at being the best in AI and the best in data, and we will…
245 00:33:46.730 ⇒ 00:33:50.129 Uttam Kumaran: Just name our price at that point. Yeah.
246 00:33:50.870 ⇒ 00:33:51.880 Sean Alexander: No, that makes sense.
247 00:33:52.480 ⇒ 00:33:54.400 Uttam Kumaran: That’s a great question.
248 00:33:55.780 ⇒ 00:33:56.520 Uttam Kumaran: What else?
249 00:33:56.520 ⇒ 00:34:04.279 Clarence Stone: So, Sean, to really add to your pricing question, though, what sector are you focused on for consulting over at Deloitte?
250 00:34:04.500 ⇒ 00:34:10.439 Sean Alexander: So I’m federal, so a lot of these conversations is really just, you know, me being plugged into different parts of the firm.
251 00:34:10.449 ⇒ 00:34:10.839 Clarence Stone: Yeah.
252 00:34:10.840 ⇒ 00:34:15.629 Sean Alexander: You know, like, you know, so, like I mentioned, you know, because I love talking about
253 00:34:16.170 ⇒ 00:34:31.220 Sean Alexander: things, anything outside of client delivery as well, you know, how we staff teams, how we do trial models at Deloitte, you know, we have a new thing coming out soon, and so I just love talking to people, understanding the firm business, and that’s why, you know, I’m hoping I see soon by mentioning the transition to an internal
254 00:34:31.219 ⇒ 00:34:36.300 Sean Alexander: rotation, I’m learning more about, like, why does the future decisions we’re doing? Why do we…
255 00:34:36.300 ⇒ 00:34:48.959 Sean Alexander: you know, we’re building it… we’re investing so much money into our India store team, but then AI’s gonna replace half of what they do, but we’re also spending billions of dollars towards AI as well. So, you know, I was very curious how other firms kind of react to that.
256 00:34:48.969 ⇒ 00:34:54.449 Clarence Stone: Yeah. So my best answer to your question about pricing
257 00:34:54.579 ⇒ 00:35:07.319 Clarence Stone: if you look at the structure of these big four, their scaffolding is built, you know, around accountancy, right? Deloitte being a little bit different because they spent a lot of time in GPS when they couldn’t go for those other sectors.
258 00:35:07.319 ⇒ 00:35:18.379 Clarence Stone: But realistically, in both of those fields, you have policies and restrictions that prevent you from having this type of flexibility in pricing.
259 00:35:18.379 ⇒ 00:35:43.239 Clarence Stone: Right? You know, for example, in… if you’re going for financial services clients, they’re SOCs, right? If you’re doing audit for them, there’s all sorts of things you’re not allowed to deliver. And just because of that, the way each of these firms are structured, you actually need to tie the, like, the feature or the product that you’re building to a tax service that’s already being provided to the client. So there isn’t a empty code
260 00:35:43.239 ⇒ 00:35:47.869 Clarence Stone: just to deliver, you know, a product or a feature to them. So, with that in mind.
261 00:35:47.869 ⇒ 00:36:12.639 Clarence Stone: like, even if these firms wanted to go to this value-based pricing, it wouldn’t be possible because of the structure that exists, right? And same thing for government, you guys have this RFP structure, where the government sets out an RFP, you respond to those things, and the pricing is pretty much determined there, like, you know, you’re already deciding on how much you want to spend on this, to go for it, and you know, you’re probably price optimizing to make sure that you win those contracts.
262 00:36:12.639 ⇒ 00:36:26.529 Clarence Stone: contracts. So, it, like, those two fields are specifically kind of built so that you can’t experiment on this type of pricing that we’re doing right now, right? So, yeah, like, that’s sort of what’s kind of holding the advancements back.
263 00:36:26.529 ⇒ 00:36:44.489 Clarence Stone: I find it really super impressing that you’re well aware of, like, the kind of conversations that I’m having with other partners and other senior managers about, you know, what are we going to do for the future, because we see the writing on the wall, right? And I can tell you, as much as I try to influence that.
264 00:36:44.490 ⇒ 00:36:46.799 Clarence Stone: It wasn’t gonna change, because once you.
265 00:36:46.800 ⇒ 00:36:47.320 Sean Alexander: Wrong.
266 00:36:47.320 ⇒ 00:36:57.370 Clarence Stone: see the root of how this was all constructed, it’s not going to be possible for… especially for those, like, GPS, great example of a sector that is going to be hard to, you know, transform.
267 00:36:57.370 ⇒ 00:37:16.569 Uttam Kumaran: It’s like, how does, like, how do those people think about retaining someone like Sean? Like, I don’t get it. Like, I don’t… what do those people… what do they think is, like, happening? Like, I don’t know, I don’t run… I don’t run… I don’t know, I’m just recently a consultant, I guess, but, like, I think a lot about retaining our people, especially young people on our team, and I’m like, what?
268 00:37:16.950 ⇒ 00:37:32.150 Uttam Kumaran: Like, what… how has nothing changed? It’s been 3 years since, like, ChatGPT came out. All the… the amount of white-collar, like, layoffs that are happening is so… like, I don’t understand what they think is, like, going on here, you know?
269 00:37:34.360 ⇒ 00:37:58.560 Clarence Stone: All I could be clear on with, you know, my team members is the kind of benefits that I can offer. I can say, hey, I’ve got over 12 years of experience in UX design, I understand, you know, building out government systems because I, you know, I was a prime contract manager for, actually overseeing Deloitte’s build out of, Gabriel Nimbus Big Data Platform, right? I can say, hey, like, your time here is going to be so valuable because I can pass along
270 00:37:58.560 ⇒ 00:38:23.279 Clarence Stone: knowledge on how we would work. All this tribal knowledge of, like, what we can do. But beyond that, like, when there’s, you know, I’ve had a lot of these tough conversations just from what you’re saying, Tom. Like, it’s like, beyond that, I can’t really control your destiny, right? Like, the timelines to progression are getting longer every day. I get it, right? You know, like, it’s difficult to figure out where you’re placed in the firm. Well, the firm does
271 00:38:23.280 ⇒ 00:38:42.110 Clarence Stone: you know, is still trying to figure out what they want to do in some ways, right? So I can’t answer that, too. So, you know, it’s very difficult, you know, in terms of retention. I think, you know, our best talent, you know, comes and goes, knowing that a lot of people boomerang. So if conditions do change, they can go back.
272 00:38:42.920 ⇒ 00:38:46.730 Sean Alexander: Yeah, I think we’re kind of actually incentivized to do Boomerang in the past.
273 00:38:47.240 ⇒ 00:39:05.800 Sean Alexander: During our previous CEO, he actually had… he was even calling it a retention tax. If you stayed at the firm, you’re getting paid lower than your counterparts, and even if you were to hire someone equivalent into the firm, you would get a higher salary than you would if you stayed in the firm. And so, you know, in the past, we have tried to do adjustments to account for that.
274 00:39:06.500 ⇒ 00:39:11.489 Uttam Kumaran: That’s crazy. How do you say… I just don’t know how you say that, and like, what?
275 00:39:11.900 ⇒ 00:39:20.470 Uttam Kumaran: The thing is, what you guys have, what we don’t have is brand. Like, for me, when I look… when I look for people that I feel like pass a filter, it’s like.
276 00:39:20.740 ⇒ 00:39:24.360 Uttam Kumaran: people that made it to those companies, you know?
277 00:39:24.560 ⇒ 00:39:31.460 Uttam Kumaran: Otherwise, there’s not, like, there’s, like, a million of folks, like, my size, who you can’t really distinguish until you, like, meet them.
278 00:39:31.480 ⇒ 00:39:44.580 Uttam Kumaran: But, you know, you do know, it’s like, okay, if you’re at the Big Four or whatever, some stamp, or at least you’ve been taught the basics, but we meet people, too, from a lot of these places that it’s just like.
279 00:39:44.680 ⇒ 00:39:52.150 Uttam Kumaran: okay, they’re just skating by, you know? They’re, like, waiting to get… basically waiting for someone to find out they’re not doing anything. And yeah.
280 00:39:52.150 ⇒ 00:39:52.960 Sean Alexander: out.
281 00:39:52.960 ⇒ 00:39:54.390 Uttam Kumaran: It’s an interesting market.
282 00:39:56.310 ⇒ 00:40:10.579 Sean Alexander: Oh, definitely. And I think just to, to also play wind in, a bit is, interesting enough, we’ve seen a lot of state governments open to that blended financing model. The state governments don’t have that federal, you know, RFP, RFI requirement.
283 00:40:10.580 ⇒ 00:40:11.280 Uttam Kumaran: Oh, okay.
284 00:40:11.280 ⇒ 00:40:19.919 Sean Alexander: And, you know, some of them never talked to AI before, especially some of the more traditional agencies within, state governments.
285 00:40:20.160 ⇒ 00:40:22.689 Sean Alexander: It’s definitely an interesting market right now.
286 00:40:23.130 ⇒ 00:40:23.820 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
287 00:40:24.400 ⇒ 00:40:28.219 Uttam Kumaran: Well, any other questions, like, we can answer? I think this was great.
288 00:40:29.020 ⇒ 00:40:30.490 Sean Alexander: Yeah,
289 00:40:30.730 ⇒ 00:40:34.959 Sean Alexander: I guess, what would you like for me to take away from this call, slash anything else to follow up on?
290 00:40:35.310 ⇒ 00:40:36.750 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah,
291 00:40:37.360 ⇒ 00:40:54.159 Uttam Kumaran: So on our side, again, as I mentioned, we’re basically thinking about, like, what does leadership look like at the company? I think you have a very interesting background in that you know the go-to-market side, you still also know delivery, and… but also that you have the third option, which is you also know what’s wrong.
292 00:40:54.450 ⇒ 00:41:10.919 Uttam Kumaran: You’re, like, in the machine, and you have the agency to understand that there are things that could be done better. I think that’s really, really great. Like, I feel like, you know, our company is looking for folks like that. I think on our side, we are sort of crafting, like, what the job description
293 00:41:10.920 ⇒ 00:41:17.140 Uttam Kumaran: For, you know, someone that can come in and own, you know, either a service line or
294 00:41:17.140 ⇒ 00:41:35.789 Uttam Kumaran: you know, an industry of certain clients, but just, like, someone that can come in and has opinions about delivering great client service faster than, you know, the nearest competitor. But then also, like, how do you grow a service line? I think that’s, like, that’s what we’re looking for.
295 00:41:35.830 ⇒ 00:41:48.999 Uttam Kumaran: you know, and of course, like, we work in AI and data, and so, like, that’s the type of work that we do, but that’s where we are now. I think, Clarence, like, maybe next steps is, like, as soon as we sort of maybe get a much more well-defined
296 00:41:49.210 ⇒ 00:42:01.550 Uttam Kumaran: like, scope together, we can run it by Sean and get his feedback. I think, in the meantime, Sean, I’d love to even just connect you with, like, one or two people on our team, if you’d be interested to just say hi and.
297 00:42:01.550 ⇒ 00:42:01.870 Sean Alexander: Yeah.
298 00:42:01.870 ⇒ 00:42:10.950 Uttam Kumaran: Or, like, I’m happy to connect you, with some people that do delivery work, for you to just get a sense of, like, what clients are like. And then,
299 00:42:11.080 ⇒ 00:42:15.589 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, maybe I’ll connect you with one or two people just to kind of keep the conversation going.
300 00:42:15.590 ⇒ 00:42:16.370 Sean Alexander: the house.
301 00:42:17.370 ⇒ 00:42:33.340 Sean Alexander: It sounds fun, no, definitely would love to. You know, even though as much as… I’ll say this, something that my friends hate about me when I talk about Deloitte Consulting is that I feel like it’s just college for me, like, I’ve never… I’ve had stressful days, but never a worrisome day, but I’m always happy to talk shop with anyone.
302 00:42:33.340 ⇒ 00:42:52.300 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course, of course. I think, like, I don’t know, for us, it’s nice to see people that sort of see the system, but we’re a company that is very, very small, like, very nimble, but we are winning, in a lot of situations that a company our size should not be winning at, you know? And so, for my job, it’s to just find
303 00:42:52.490 ⇒ 00:43:04.250 Uttam Kumaran: the next people that kind of want to steward it and… and just pour gas on them, you know, in a good way. And, that’s sort of what we’re thinking, but it’s interesting because I can’t just bring on people that are just
304 00:43:04.280 ⇒ 00:43:18.099 Uttam Kumaran: delivery people. We need some people that, like, want to own a piece of, like, a book, or a service line, or go to market entirely. And what you do at Brain… it’s actually… I’m not really looking for
305 00:43:18.190 ⇒ 00:43:28.349 Uttam Kumaran: You can tell I didn’t… we didn’t ask a lot about, like, what exactly are you doing? More, what I’m interested in is, like, the aptitude to, like, change every 3 to 6 months, because our.
306 00:43:28.350 ⇒ 00:43:28.710 Sean Alexander: Yeah.
307 00:43:28.710 ⇒ 00:43:41.859 Uttam Kumaran: only changes every 3-6 months. Like, I am doing a completely different job this quarter than I did 3 months ago. Like, very, very different. And so, we’re more looking for people like that, but also.
308 00:43:41.860 ⇒ 00:43:49.850 Uttam Kumaran: want to be part of something that’s gonna grow really, really fast and really big, in a world where that doesn’t really happen, you know, I feel like, so…
309 00:43:50.080 ⇒ 00:43:50.990 Sean Alexander: No, yeah.
310 00:43:50.990 ⇒ 00:43:51.670 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
311 00:43:53.420 ⇒ 00:43:55.810 Sean Alexander: Keep up and let me know who else to talk to.
312 00:43:55.810 ⇒ 00:43:56.160 Uttam Kumaran: term.
313 00:43:56.370 ⇒ 00:43:58.340 Sean Alexander: Yeah, I’m excited to hear more.
314 00:43:58.340 ⇒ 00:44:11.760 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, and hit me up with any questions, like, you have both of our emails. If anything comes up, you have any thoughts, like, I think your questions are great. Any, like… this is all we think about is, like, how to do things the new way, but again, it’s tough. We often don’t have, like, a North Star.
315 00:44:11.760 ⇒ 00:44:19.250 Uttam Kumaran: Because I talk to other people that run consultancies, and they’re not thinking about doing anything different.
316 00:44:19.250 ⇒ 00:44:19.730 Sean Alexander: Exactly.
317 00:44:19.730 ⇒ 00:44:27.119 Uttam Kumaran: But it’s hard, it’s hard to do something different. It’s, like, it’s risky, and it’s… you have to be different, and you have to get challenged, but…
318 00:44:27.260 ⇒ 00:44:35.269 Uttam Kumaran: I don’t know, like, we wanna… we wanna have a different outcome, and we wanna have a different type of team, and so we will do the thing that’s… that’s different, for sure, so…
319 00:44:36.550 ⇒ 00:44:37.700 Sean Alexander: No, that’s awesome to hear.
320 00:44:38.120 ⇒ 00:44:44.839 Sean Alexander: Oh, no, I’m excited. You know, it’s a breath of fresh air, I would say, talking, you know, to at least this publishing has been.
321 00:44:45.250 ⇒ 00:44:48.350 Uttam Kumaran: No, I appreciate it. Thank you, I know it’s Friday afternoon, so I hope you have a great.
322 00:44:48.350 ⇒ 00:44:49.800 Sean Alexander: Yeah, well…
323 00:44:49.800 ⇒ 00:44:52.010 Uttam Kumaran: We’ll be in touch over email, for sure. Yeah.
324 00:44:52.010 ⇒ 00:44:53.529 Clarence Stone: Awesome. Catch you a little bit.
325 00:44:53.530 ⇒ 00:44:54.229 Uttam Kumaran: Okay, thank you.
326 00:44:54.230 ⇒ 00:44:55.130 Clarence Stone: Tishawn?
327 00:44:55.130 ⇒ 00:44:55.760 Uttam Kumaran: Bye.