Meeting Title: Brainforge Proposal and Transition Discussion Date: 2025-10-06 Meeting participants: Justin Breshears, Uttam Kumaran
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1 00:01:13.560 ⇒ 00:01:14.080 Justin Breshears: Hey!
2 00:01:14.080 ⇒ 00:01:14.950 Uttam Kumaran: Hey!
3 00:01:15.840 ⇒ 00:01:17.619 Justin Breshears: Get that proposal out?
4 00:01:18.170 ⇒ 00:01:24.599 Uttam Kumaran: Yes, this has been a long time coming, and it’s so crazy how, like, deals come back.
5 00:01:25.150 ⇒ 00:01:28.060 Uttam Kumaran: to life, but this is, like, a huge one.
6 00:01:28.640 ⇒ 00:01:32.840 Uttam Kumaran: Do you know CES? Like, the Consumer Electronics Show?
7 00:01:33.020 ⇒ 00:01:33.660 Justin Breshears: Yeah.
8 00:01:34.010 ⇒ 00:01:37.250 Uttam Kumaran: It’s for the company that owns and runs that.
9 00:01:37.890 ⇒ 00:01:38.630 Justin Breshears: Okay, nice.
10 00:01:38.630 ⇒ 00:01:46.559 Uttam Kumaran: basically… They have no concise list of, like, everyone that’s attended, and…
11 00:01:46.720 ⇒ 00:01:50.250 Uttam Kumaran: Everyone who will attend, and
12 00:01:50.850 ⇒ 00:01:56.070 Uttam Kumaran: it’s a really historic brand, like, I’ve been watching CES since I was, like, a kid, basically.
13 00:01:56.180 ⇒ 00:02:02.360 Uttam Kumaran: And it’s the first proposal where we actually broke out by roles, and, like, it’s gone to, like, this point.
14 00:02:02.570 ⇒ 00:02:06.399 Uttam Kumaran: So it’s the first, like, enterprise-style proposal where I was able to say.
15 00:02:06.810 ⇒ 00:02:10.299 Uttam Kumaran: like, a strategist is this price, PM is this price.
16 00:02:10.520 ⇒ 00:02:12.530 Uttam Kumaran: And do it that way, and…
17 00:02:13.190 ⇒ 00:02:17.700 Uttam Kumaran: She kind of, like, is, like, fast-tracking it, so… it’s looking like…
18 00:02:18.220 ⇒ 00:02:19.929 Justin Breshears: What’s the total on that one?
19 00:02:19.930 ⇒ 00:02:21.960 Uttam Kumaran: That one…
20 00:02:22.900 ⇒ 00:02:29.369 Uttam Kumaran: I don’t know, like, they haven’t really, like, it’s clear the scope may shift, but it’s gonna be anywhere from…
21 00:02:29.490 ⇒ 00:02:34.580 Uttam Kumaran: like, 30 to 40 grand, maybe, over the next… I mean, it depends when they…
22 00:02:34.870 ⇒ 00:02:49.980 Uttam Kumaran: when they’re good with it, but over the… before December, basically. So CES is, like, around January. They have some deliverables they want to hit before then. But again, I sort of, like, had you in my mind, which is, like, don’t worry too much about, like.
23 00:02:50.490 ⇒ 00:02:58.229 Uttam Kumaran: I think at the enterprise level, it’s different, like, they’re open to some flexibility, the more just, like… which is different than some of the customers we have, where…
24 00:02:58.530 ⇒ 00:03:12.429 Uttam Kumaran: you have to spell out everything. At their level, they’re like, okay, just give us the rough ranges, and they’re… I can also… they’re also working with AWS ProServe on something, they’re working with another consultant on something, so we would be…
25 00:03:12.790 ⇒ 00:03:15.920 Uttam Kumaran: We would be kind of like a third-party
26 00:03:16.290 ⇒ 00:03:21.120 Uttam Kumaran: of, like, is the AWS ProServe stuff actually working? And…
27 00:03:21.440 ⇒ 00:03:27.099 Uttam Kumaran: The lovely thing is, is that the… our main stakeholder is, like, a data person, so…
28 00:03:27.480 ⇒ 00:03:46.189 Uttam Kumaran: the seller, I just literally, like, just nerded out with her about, like, kind of some of the stuff we’re doing, and it was perfect. Like, she’s like, oh my god, you guys are grand, I’ve never… all the consultants we’re talking to are, like, so, like, business-y. And I’m like, no, that’s not how we are, and yeah, it was really good, so…
29 00:03:46.790 ⇒ 00:03:50.179 Justin Breshears: AWS ProServe is awful, so… I’m sure…
30 00:03:50.180 ⇒ 00:03:55.650 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I mean, I don’t know what they’re paying them, I would love for us to get that scope.
31 00:03:56.080 ⇒ 00:04:03.370 Justin Breshears: I mean, there’s a reason why they have their own ProServe wing, but they have so many partners that get all of their business.
32 00:04:03.370 ⇒ 00:04:04.090 Uttam Kumaran: Well, that’s what I’m saying.
33 00:04:04.090 ⇒ 00:04:07.580 Justin Breshears: This literally doesn’t refer business to their own department.
34 00:04:07.580 ⇒ 00:04:12.480 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, so that’s why I was like, so is AWS Pro Server, are they actually fulfilling it, or is it…
35 00:04:12.930 ⇒ 00:04:16.349 Uttam Kumaran: Also, like, I’ve worked with AWS ProServe before, and…
36 00:04:16.790 ⇒ 00:04:25.049 Uttam Kumaran: I don’t know, it’s like, I think a lot of clients, a lot of customers get, like, oh yeah, AWS will come in, and they don’t do a lot, and…
37 00:04:26.270 ⇒ 00:04:30.670 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, but they just, like, come bundled, basically, and so you’re like…
38 00:04:30.670 ⇒ 00:04:44.080 Justin Breshears: And they only, like, touch AWS stuff, because, like, most customers I’ve worked with in the past, like, they have needs outside of just the AWS, like, architecture and services that, you know, need to be touched, like…
39 00:04:44.080 ⇒ 00:04:45.010 Uttam Kumaran: Totally.
40 00:04:45.010 ⇒ 00:04:50.480 Justin Breshears: you know, stuff outside of it, and yeah, AWS won’t touch any of this. I don’t know if anybody uses, so…
41 00:04:50.480 ⇒ 00:04:55.780 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, so this would be a big win, and then we have, like, 3 or 4 other proposals that are, like.
42 00:04:56.000 ⇒ 00:04:59.800 Uttam Kumaran: It’s in more… it’s in Robert’s camp, but they’re, like, teetering.
43 00:05:00.120 ⇒ 00:05:02.270 Uttam Kumaran: Should be great, because with the current…
44 00:05:02.550 ⇒ 00:05:06.939 Uttam Kumaran: amount of folks were already, like, on our OKR.
45 00:05:07.800 ⇒ 00:05:17.899 Uttam Kumaran: if this closes… I mean, if this closes, I have to go get… I have to go higher. Like, I have to go hire at least another engineering person, but…
46 00:05:18.180 ⇒ 00:05:20.189 Uttam Kumaran: Like, that sucks, so what I’m…
47 00:05:20.360 ⇒ 00:05:26.640 Uttam Kumaran: what I’m thinking about. This one could be really good. It’s very… this… any… all our big customers are very straightforward, like…
48 00:05:26.740 ⇒ 00:05:30.279 Uttam Kumaran: The work that these guys want is actually so easy.
49 00:05:30.400 ⇒ 00:05:36.930 Uttam Kumaran: it’s almost like… It’ll be… it’s actually harder because they’re a very old… organization.
50 00:05:37.330 ⇒ 00:05:37.730 Justin Breshears: Yeah.
51 00:05:37.730 ⇒ 00:05:43.390 Uttam Kumaran: So, it’s like, you need to… we’ll have to go… and you can tell… the woman we’re working for, she just got hired recently.
52 00:05:43.880 ⇒ 00:05:52.219 Uttam Kumaran: But again, like, she just wants… even she was like, I just need someone at, like, our lo- she’s like, I need someone at my level, like, even just bat… like, a foil.
53 00:05:52.390 ⇒ 00:05:58.700 Uttam Kumaran: And I’m like, yeah, 100%, I’m happy to talk to you about any of the decisions. And so…
54 00:05:58.840 ⇒ 00:06:01.800 Uttam Kumaran: I love selling these types of deals because…
55 00:06:02.190 ⇒ 00:06:15.589 Uttam Kumaran: it’s like… but the problem is, is like… it’s a fluke how I got in, like, you know, the story? This is a wild story. So, in Austin, there’s, there’s a punk rock cover band called Y’all Out Boy.
56 00:06:15.770 ⇒ 00:06:23.200 Uttam Kumaran: I don’t know if you guys ever went to go see them, or, like, they play at, like, radio and stuff, and I went to go see them.
57 00:06:23.420 ⇒ 00:06:37.540 Uttam Kumaran: play, like, Radio East, which just opened up with my girlfriend maybe, like, 12 months ago. And I… at the end of the show, I went in and was saying hi to one of the guys that sings in the band.
58 00:06:37.650 ⇒ 00:06:52.130 Uttam Kumaran: And his girlfriend was there, and I was talking to her, and she was like, oh yeah, I run a… she’s like, what do you do? I’m like, oh yeah, I run Bay Force. She’s like, oh yeah, I run a data analytics consultancy, too, so we’re just focused on health… healthcare data.
59 00:06:52.380 ⇒ 00:07:02.530 Uttam Kumaran: I was like, oh, no way, cool. And then I was like, let’s grab coffee or something. And then we actually didn’t end up grabbing coffee for a while, but she referred me. She’s like, oh yeah, these guys came and talked to us
60 00:07:02.810 ⇒ 00:07:09.099 Uttam Kumaran: like, CTA, CES came, and I didn’t really know what to do, they’re not in a real house, do you want to go talk to them? That was… this was, like.
61 00:07:09.340 ⇒ 00:07:11.979 Uttam Kumaran: Almost 10 or 11 months ago.
62 00:07:12.370 ⇒ 00:07:25.190 Uttam Kumaran: That’s how… and then the person I was dealing with, she didn’t know enough to make a decision. She’s like, I’m bringing on a director of data, talk to her when she gets here. And then that took, like, 6 months.
63 00:07:25.350 ⇒ 00:07:27.410 Uttam Kumaran: And then, like, 2 months ago.
64 00:07:27.680 ⇒ 00:07:31.410 Uttam Kumaran: I sent her, like, a… on a whim, I was like, let me just email her back.
65 00:07:31.820 ⇒ 00:07:37.909 Uttam Kumaran: Being like, how’d it go, hiring? And she’s like, oh yeah, the person’s awesome, you should talk to her. Let me, like, put you on a thread with her.
66 00:07:38.270 ⇒ 00:07:45.460 Uttam Kumaran: And then here we are. So it’s very, like… Very weird, circumstance, so…
67 00:07:46.370 ⇒ 00:07:49.620 Justin Breshears: Hey, that’s how you… how you gotta get it done sometimes.
68 00:07:49.620 ⇒ 00:07:50.580 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, yeah.
69 00:07:50.580 ⇒ 00:07:51.179 Justin Breshears: fire, you know?
70 00:07:51.810 ⇒ 00:07:52.700 Uttam Kumaran: Death.
71 00:07:52.700 ⇒ 00:07:53.460 Justin Breshears: That’s good.
72 00:07:54.840 ⇒ 00:07:56.180 Justin Breshears: What else is on your mind?
73 00:07:57.130 ⇒ 00:07:58.270 Uttam Kumaran: How did the day go?
74 00:07:59.360 ⇒ 00:08:02.700 Justin Breshears: It’s been a stressful day.
75 00:08:03.670 ⇒ 00:08:07.929 Justin Breshears: a little bit, you know, obviously.
76 00:08:08.380 ⇒ 00:08:12.639 Justin Breshears: doing all this stuff for Brainforge and everything today, but, you know, around that, like.
77 00:08:13.040 ⇒ 00:08:20.069 Justin Breshears: you know, having the conversations with Credera and, you know, back and forth on the offer and stuff like that, so…
78 00:08:20.070 ⇒ 00:08:20.610 Uttam Kumaran: Okay.
79 00:08:20.610 ⇒ 00:08:22.780 Justin Breshears: I know I owe you,
80 00:08:23.390 ⇒ 00:08:28.079 Justin Breshears: conversation about that, you know, which is why I wanted to schedule some time.
81 00:08:28.180 ⇒ 00:08:33.749 Justin Breshears: Basically, what it comes down to is, like.
82 00:08:34.190 ⇒ 00:08:40.379 Justin Breshears: I am not in a financial position to turn down that offer, really just not.
83 00:08:40.809 ⇒ 00:08:46.129 Justin Breshears: I want to work for Brainforge. I love what you’re doing. I think y’all are building something really awesome.
84 00:08:47.170 ⇒ 00:08:59.510 Justin Breshears: personally, I just, like, can’t go without insurance or just, like, financial security on a month-to-month basis. Right now, like, you know where I’m at. I literally couldn’t pay my mortgage, like, unless…
85 00:09:00.120 ⇒ 00:09:11.740 Justin Breshears: you know, you paid me sooner than you would have before. Like, that’s… that’s kind of where I’m at, which is a really stupid place to be in my 30s with two children I need to have.
86 00:09:12.340 ⇒ 00:09:14.610 Justin Breshears: Better finances than that.
87 00:09:15.450 ⇒ 00:09:20.289 Justin Breshears: So, I mean… I’m kind of almost, like, forced into that decision.
88 00:09:20.290 ⇒ 00:09:20.660 Uttam Kumaran: Okay.
89 00:09:20.660 ⇒ 00:09:27.439 Justin Breshears: point, which I… I hate that that’s the reality that I’m in, like, if I had…
90 00:09:27.840 ⇒ 00:09:32.109 Justin Breshears: money in the bank, like, I would be more risk tolerant at this point.
91 00:09:32.220 ⇒ 00:09:34.800 Justin Breshears: But I…
92 00:09:35.050 ⇒ 00:09:41.660 Justin Breshears: I… I need benefits. Like, my 7th month-old is, like, overdue for a doctor’s appointment. Like, I don’t.
93 00:09:41.660 ⇒ 00:09:42.440 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
94 00:09:42.440 ⇒ 00:09:57.429 Justin Breshears: Like, I don’t have… and I don’t have, like, the extra money to, like, pay extra, you know, out of pocket, like, whatever, like, I just… I don’t… I don’t have enough money right now. And so, again, just trying to be honest with you, like, I did not in any way, like.
95 00:09:57.620 ⇒ 00:10:14.709 Justin Breshears: start any kind of, like, business relationship with you, like, and say, like, oh, I’m gonna do this and, like, just play it until I could find something else. That’s not how it went down, like, that was, like, the one other lead that I had from before I even got let go from Kayla. That just has been, like, a slow burn at this point.
96 00:10:14.710 ⇒ 00:10:15.100 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
97 00:10:15.100 ⇒ 00:10:19.660 Justin Breshears: But it has ended up working out, and, like, the… the…
98 00:10:19.760 ⇒ 00:10:25.180 Justin Breshears: comp with the benefits, it’s just, like, it’s… it’s too much to… to… for me and the.
99 00:10:25.180 ⇒ 00:10:30.090 Uttam Kumaran: Is it, like, way… is it, like, much… is it way over, like, 200? Like, do you think there’s any way we could…
100 00:10:30.090 ⇒ 00:10:40.229 Justin Breshears: Yeah, the… the… so it’s… it’s a… I mean, I can just be honest with you, I’ve been honest with you this whole time. The base is $182, and the 20% bonus.
101 00:10:40.530 ⇒ 00:10:43.780 Justin Breshears: Okay. So the total cup is, like, $218?
102 00:10:44.120 ⇒ 00:10:45.130 Justin Breshears: Okay.
103 00:10:45.130 ⇒ 00:10:47.370 Uttam Kumaran: And then with every… with everything on top of that.
104 00:10:47.370 ⇒ 00:10:51.879 Justin Breshears: Benefits, yeah, so there’s, like, 401K, insurance, like, all of that stuff.
105 00:10:52.050 ⇒ 00:10:52.370 Uttam Kumaran: Okay.
106 00:10:52.370 ⇒ 00:10:54.500 Justin Breshears: And that’s where, like.
107 00:10:55.340 ⇒ 00:11:14.839 Justin Breshears: like, dude, I can’t tell you how much, like, I appreciate you, like, and what you were willing to do for me, and, like, all this stuff, like, but if I look at that and I’m like, 160, you know, without benefits, I understand, like, the variable and, like, the potential and all that, but, like, realistically, you know, if you were to take $160 and the renewals being 2%, right?
108 00:11:14.930 ⇒ 00:11:25.059 Justin Breshears: you need 160 to $200 at that point, you know? Yeah. So, like, I was kind of looking at this, like, I think you’re gonna get there, like, I think you’ll get there, and I’ll be, like.
109 00:11:25.490 ⇒ 00:11:38.310 Justin Breshears: you know, a snowball, and just, like, keeping it obscene, but it’s just, like, how long would that take? And then, like, how long would it be, like, without benefits, and, like, all this stuff. So, like, that’s kind of what has been, like, going into… I’ve been agonizing over this, which I know.
110 00:11:38.310 ⇒ 00:11:39.000 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, yeah.
111 00:11:39.000 ⇒ 00:11:40.099 Justin Breshears: you know…
112 00:11:40.100 ⇒ 00:11:41.490 Uttam Kumaran: I don’t know, I mean, that’s…
113 00:11:41.490 ⇒ 00:11:41.810 Justin Breshears: So, like.
114 00:11:42.370 ⇒ 00:11:44.139 Uttam Kumaran: No, I get it, it’s just…
115 00:11:44.140 ⇒ 00:12:03.920 Justin Breshears: weekend was just, like, literally sick to my stomach, like, what, because I… I love, like, what you’re doing, and, like, dude, I respect… I respect the heck out of you, I really do. Like, you’re building this the right way, you’re… you’re a good guy, like, you want to take care of your employees and stuff, and you treated me, like, extremely well. And so, it’s part of the reason why, like, this really…
116 00:12:04.210 ⇒ 00:12:06.279 Justin Breshears: Has not been an easy decision for me.
117 00:12:06.280 ⇒ 00:12:08.060 Uttam Kumaran: No, I get it, yeah.
118 00:12:08.230 ⇒ 00:12:18.220 Justin Breshears: being… being a dad with two little kids that, like, completely depend on me, like, that makes a lot of my decisions, to be honest. Like, that’s kind of where I’m at right now, is…
119 00:12:18.230 ⇒ 00:12:30.389 Justin Breshears: I… I have to do what’s best for them, and what’s best for them right now is, like, the stability and the security that this other offer provides, regardless of, like, where I want to end up.
120 00:12:30.600 ⇒ 00:12:33.190 Justin Breshears: And I mean all of that, like.
121 00:12:34.140 ⇒ 00:12:36.099 Justin Breshears: Yeah, I’m not just, like, saying that.
122 00:12:36.100 ⇒ 00:12:39.810 Uttam Kumaran: No, no, no, I get it, I get it. It’s, it’s tough because, like…
123 00:12:40.720 ⇒ 00:12:47.940 Uttam Kumaran: I… I really do see that, like, you know, we built this from zero just two years ago, and I think we’ve added another…
124 00:12:48.060 ⇒ 00:12:51.070 Uttam Kumaran: Basically, like, half a million in, in,
125 00:12:51.530 ⇒ 00:12:55.290 Uttam Kumaran: In, like, 4 months, and it’s growing, but…
126 00:12:55.470 ⇒ 00:13:01.680 Uttam Kumaran: I don’t know, like, I can only do what I can do, and it’s tough. Like, I don’t feel like… you know, even for me, I’m like…
127 00:13:02.900 ⇒ 00:13:05.140 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I don’t know. It’s,
128 00:13:06.020 ⇒ 00:13:08.690 Uttam Kumaran: It’s hard, but I don’t know, it’s not something we’ve…
129 00:13:08.800 ⇒ 00:13:11.730 Uttam Kumaran: It’s something we’ve dealt with before, and…
130 00:13:11.890 ⇒ 00:13:20.969 Uttam Kumaran: for me, it’s just, like, I wonder when our business will get… will get a break, because it’s just so expensive to hire, and so expensive to…
131 00:13:21.120 ⇒ 00:13:23.659 Uttam Kumaran: To get great people, but,
132 00:13:24.810 ⇒ 00:13:30.950 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I don’t know. This is… for me, I don’t know, I get kind of stoic about it, because it’s something that, even from the beginning, we’ve…
133 00:13:31.090 ⇒ 00:13:41.099 Uttam Kumaran: we’ve dealt with it, and it’s… it just sucks even for us, because I would totally… if I… if I, like, even… if we were making another 50 grand a month, I would match the offer. I wouldn’t care.
134 00:13:41.230 ⇒ 00:13:45.060 Uttam Kumaran: And I also don’t think we’re, like, that far from it.
135 00:13:45.270 ⇒ 00:13:48.559 Uttam Kumaran: But it just sucks on the timing, like, it’s brutal.
136 00:13:49.210 ⇒ 00:13:50.889 Justin Breshears: Yeah, I mean, that…
137 00:13:51.230 ⇒ 00:13:56.249 Justin Breshears: I don’t think you’re far from it, either. It’s really… this is a more of a.
138 00:13:56.930 ⇒ 00:13:57.610 Uttam Kumaran: Traditional.
139 00:13:57.610 ⇒ 00:13:59.429 Justin Breshears: just, like, where I’m at in my life.
140 00:13:59.430 ⇒ 00:14:02.759 Uttam Kumaran: Totally. Situationally, like, that’s really… I’m being…
141 00:14:02.760 ⇒ 00:14:09.249 Justin Breshears: I hear you. 100%, like, it’s the need for insurance and the fact that I have, like, no money in the bank account. Like, that’s…
142 00:14:09.250 ⇒ 00:14:09.770 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
143 00:14:09.990 ⇒ 00:14:24.110 Justin Breshears: that’s where I’m at, and so my risk tolerance is very low right now. Yeah. That’s where I have to be. Like, I have to look my wife in the eye and be able to, like, provide for our family. Totally. So, this has, like, absolutely zero to do with your business. In fact, like.
144 00:14:24.610 ⇒ 00:14:25.630 Justin Breshears: I mean…
145 00:14:25.940 ⇒ 00:14:31.399 Justin Breshears: even at the numbers the way they are, if I just had a little bit of a cushion in my bank.
146 00:14:31.860 ⇒ 00:14:33.670 Uttam Kumaran: No, I know.
147 00:14:33.670 ⇒ 00:14:35.119 Justin Breshears: I really would, because I…
148 00:14:36.000 ⇒ 00:14:49.219 Justin Breshears: Y’all are building something impressive, and I do think, like, years from now, like, you’re gonna be 10 times the size that you are right now, and it’s gonna be really awesome, and I’m gonna be sad that I, you know, missed out on it, but…
149 00:14:49.870 ⇒ 00:14:52.619 Justin Breshears: I just, like… To give you.
150 00:14:52.620 ⇒ 00:14:53.219 Uttam Kumaran: I hear you.
151 00:14:53.220 ⇒ 00:15:04.589 Justin Breshears: to that you don’t even need, but, like, my dad had a similar choice when I was growing up, and he chose to… he was a lawyer, and he worked for this place, and made a lot of money, and he was, like.
152 00:15:04.800 ⇒ 00:15:14.170 Justin Breshears: I’m gonna go off on my own in private practice, and, has proceeded to, like, completely bankrupt my entire family by making that decision.
153 00:15:14.420 ⇒ 00:15:16.890 Justin Breshears: I… that has no bearing on, like, you.
154 00:15:16.890 ⇒ 00:15:18.220 Uttam Kumaran: No, no, no, no, I get you.
155 00:15:18.220 ⇒ 00:15:18.640 Justin Breshears: But…
156 00:15:18.640 ⇒ 00:15:20.080 Uttam Kumaran: No, no, I hear you.
157 00:15:20.080 ⇒ 00:15:32.910 Justin Breshears: by that, where it’s like, he chose not to have benefits. Well, my mom has had cancer 3 different times, and they had no benefits or insurance, and they are, like, hundreds of thousands of dollars in medical debt because of that one decision.
158 00:15:32.910 ⇒ 00:15:33.490 Uttam Kumaran: I hear.
159 00:15:33.490 ⇒ 00:15:38.819 Justin Breshears: Yeah. And so it’s like, that’s, like, literally PTSD in my own life.
160 00:15:38.820 ⇒ 00:15:50.939 Uttam Kumaran: No, I get it, man. I don’t know, it’s and it’s not easy for me, either, like, you know, I’ve… I was… if had I just stuck with my job, I would have made 10 times what I’ve made.
161 00:15:51.040 ⇒ 00:16:06.800 Uttam Kumaran: like, in the last 2 years doing this stupid job. And I’ve still not made any money off this stupid job, but, you know, every day we get so much better, and it’s… but again, like, I…
162 00:16:06.800 ⇒ 00:16:12.780 Uttam Kumaran: I can only continue to put the company in the best spot, and Like, ev-
163 00:16:13.080 ⇒ 00:16:23.840 Uttam Kumaran: everything has to work out. I also… I worked in startups my whole career, and I’ve never worked for a startup where anything they promised me actually came true, and so…
164 00:16:24.110 ⇒ 00:16:25.809 Uttam Kumaran: I totally get it.
165 00:16:25.900 ⇒ 00:16:37.630 Uttam Kumaran: I’m… and I’m fighting… I fight against a lot of baggage from the industry, but it’s also, like, look, I… I… I think we… it… we’ve…
166 00:16:37.710 ⇒ 00:16:46.630 Uttam Kumaran: it just has to work out for every single person, and there is definitely a level of risk here that I’m not shy to talk about. Like, this is a stressful company, and we are…
167 00:16:46.780 ⇒ 00:16:47.590 Uttam Kumaran: like…
168 00:16:47.690 ⇒ 00:16:54.999 Uttam Kumaran: we’re clearly, like, 3 deals from being up, 3 deals from being down. It’s not like a regular, regular gig, and…
169 00:16:55.000 ⇒ 00:17:09.379 Uttam Kumaran: And I respect you for putting that decision forward. The other thing is, dude, we’re… I mean, we’re not, like, going anywhere, so in a year from now, or whenever you get bored, and I have $250K for you, I’ll call you, and then you’ll hopefully make another decision.
170 00:17:09.380 ⇒ 00:17:12.650 Justin Breshears: that, like, there weren’t any, like, bridges burnt or anything.
171 00:17:12.650 ⇒ 00:17:18.379 Uttam Kumaran: No, no, no, no, no. For me, for me, I just, like, I… Like, I went… I’ve just…
172 00:17:19.329 ⇒ 00:17:37.549 Uttam Kumaran: I used to not have anything… I used to just be an employee, and so I… I totally get where you’re coming from. But I’ve seen… people have come into the company and done this before, and not malicious, some malicious… some more sort of like, they could have done it a little better, some more, like, they just had no idea. And for me, I just…
173 00:17:37.680 ⇒ 00:17:39.999 Uttam Kumaran: I try to protect our time, and, like.
174 00:17:40.420 ⇒ 00:17:51.430 Uttam Kumaran: I know I have to, like… okay, if you’re not gonna be here, I have to make a… a series of dominoes has to fall now, and I just need to know that so I can go do… do those things. That’s really, like, yeah.
175 00:17:51.430 ⇒ 00:18:03.440 Justin Breshears: And that’s legitimately why I, like, brought you in on this, like, before I made this decision. So, like, if you were any other employer, the first time you heard about me taking another job would be right this second, because, like, I wouldn’t have any, like…
176 00:18:03.620 ⇒ 00:18:07.890 Uttam Kumaran: I appreciate that. You know, trust in bringing you in on that, right?
177 00:18:07.890 ⇒ 00:18:09.699 Justin Breshears: But I brought you in on that because…
178 00:18:10.490 ⇒ 00:18:16.309 Justin Breshears: like, I didn’t want you to be blindsided by anything, I wanted to, like, treat you with the respect that
179 00:18:16.420 ⇒ 00:18:19.600 Justin Breshears: Europe treated me with, and so, like, I understand, like.
180 00:18:20.220 ⇒ 00:18:27.400 Justin Breshears: it’s tough, like, from your position, and, like, you know, the decisions that you have to make now, or whatever, but, like, I hope you understand, like, I really was trying to, like.
181 00:18:27.630 ⇒ 00:18:28.870 Uttam Kumaran: No, no, no, totally.
182 00:18:28.870 ⇒ 00:18:32.980 Justin Breshears: I didn’t want to leave you in a horrible position, and I don’t want to, and like…
183 00:18:32.980 ⇒ 00:18:37.159 Uttam Kumaran: I’m not gonna start the other job for a while now, so it’s not like…
184 00:18:37.160 ⇒ 00:18:46.679 Justin Breshears: I’m logging off after this conversation, and, like, I’m out, I’m leaving you in the lurch, like, I can help get you in a better place, like, before I just, like, bounce on you, but…
185 00:18:46.820 ⇒ 00:18:52.720 Justin Breshears: I’m trying… I’m trying to do it that way, and I did not come into this, like, trying to use you as any kind of, like.
186 00:18:53.160 ⇒ 00:18:54.180 Justin Breshears: You know, safety net.
187 00:18:54.180 ⇒ 00:19:12.549 Uttam Kumaran: No, I also… I also don’t, like, I’m not… I’m not super, like… I played a game, too, like, so I’m not… it’s not lost to me, and that’s where, like, I’m now, like, I’m an employer now, I guess, but I was on the other side, like, just re… so not… the game… what I… what I mean to say is that I actually think it is an employer…
188 00:19:12.590 ⇒ 00:19:23.649 Uttam Kumaran: employee, like, those should have a back and forth. I actually think, typically, the employee has very little options and very little information. So, as you can tell, I try to, like.
189 00:19:23.850 ⇒ 00:19:36.029 Uttam Kumaran: really be transparent about everything with everybody, because I was on that spot where I… people would lie about the way things were going, or whatever, so I try to share, but also, look, we…
190 00:19:36.370 ⇒ 00:19:42.380 Uttam Kumaran: We made sacrifices on building the company without raising money, without doing a lot of things, and this is, like, what
191 00:19:42.680 ⇒ 00:19:49.960 Uttam Kumaran: this is, like, this is just another, you know, obstacle in our way, and that’s okay. So I don’t blame you, I don’t blame you at all. You know, so…
192 00:19:49.960 ⇒ 00:19:55.440 Justin Breshears: I really do respect you and what you’re building there, and yeah, I mean…
193 00:19:55.440 ⇒ 00:20:12.719 Justin Breshears: if things change down the line, like, my line’s always open. But in the meantime, too, like, my line’s open as a friend, too, like, if you want to just, like, have these conversations, because I know, like, the conversations that we’ve had, a lot of fruit has come out of that already. Yeah, yeah. And I know, like, you have other friends that you call about, like.
194 00:20:13.290 ⇒ 00:20:13.910 Justin Breshears: other…
195 00:20:13.910 ⇒ 00:20:16.929 Uttam Kumaran: I call about 100… I call about 100 people every time I.
196 00:20:16.930 ⇒ 00:20:17.330 Justin Breshears: Okay.
197 00:20:17.550 ⇒ 00:20:18.470 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, because…
198 00:20:18.470 ⇒ 00:20:37.769 Justin Breshears: That door is always open with me, like, I would love to just, like, chat, and if I can help you reason things out, or, like, you can ask me, like, well, what’d y’all do at Kalin? Or, like, whatever. Like, if I can help you in any way, like, I would continue to do that happily, for free, just because I want to see you succeed. Like, I want to see Brain Forge succeed, so…
199 00:20:37.790 ⇒ 00:20:51.799 Justin Breshears: I mean, my line’s always open. It is always open to, like, should, you know, circumstances be different down the line, too. Sure. I don’t… I would never want to, like, burn any bridges or anything, or, you know, cause any, like, hard feelings through all of this stuff. I just…
200 00:20:51.800 ⇒ 00:21:01.630 Justin Breshears: legitimately, like, this just really came down to, like, being the provider for my family, like, I just have to do what’s the smartest financial decision for us in this season that we’re in.
201 00:21:01.700 ⇒ 00:21:02.470 Justin Breshears: It’s related.
202 00:21:02.470 ⇒ 00:21:03.619 Uttam Kumaran: It’s okay, makes sense.
203 00:21:03.620 ⇒ 00:21:04.190 Justin Breshears: Certainly.
204 00:21:04.960 ⇒ 00:21:08.009 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah. So then tell me, give me a sense of, like, timeline.
205 00:21:08.550 ⇒ 00:21:16.860 Justin Breshears: Yeah, so, I mean, they mentioned, like, the 27th as being, like, our start date, because they do it.
206 00:21:17.090 ⇒ 00:21:18.849 Justin Breshears: 2nd and 4th.
207 00:21:19.380 ⇒ 00:21:21.840 Justin Breshears: Okay. Or something like that.
208 00:21:21.950 ⇒ 00:21:26.499 Justin Breshears: So, I have some… I have some time with me now, then.
209 00:21:27.070 ⇒ 00:21:27.670 Uttam Kumaran: Okay.
210 00:21:29.380 ⇒ 00:21:31.899 Uttam Kumaran: Okay, cool. So then on my side…
211 00:21:32.820 ⇒ 00:21:38.450 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, let me give Robert a call, and then we’ll… I… it would be great to maybe get your help.
212 00:21:38.990 ⇒ 00:21:47.499 Uttam Kumaran: like, interviewing a little bit in this period. I think we’ll probably, yeah, try to just go after a couple more candidates.
213 00:21:47.860 ⇒ 00:21:59.290 Uttam Kumaran: I mean, I think you… I think if we continue course even for the next few weeks as is, that would be amazing. I think as fast as I can find somebody to transition to.
214 00:21:59.430 ⇒ 00:22:07.650 Uttam Kumaran: like, that would be really great. I think we… I think it’ll be much easier for them, actually,
215 00:22:08.140 ⇒ 00:22:20.049 Uttam Kumaran: than it was for you to actually start to see all our policies, even in just the month or two. So, that would probably be my goal between now and then, is to… I’ll try to lock down some more candidates and…
216 00:22:20.050 ⇒ 00:22:20.410 Justin Breshears: dirt.
217 00:22:20.410 ⇒ 00:22:24.710 Uttam Kumaran: see if I can… Get some people towards the finish line, and then…
218 00:22:25.030 ⇒ 00:22:28.369 Uttam Kumaran: Ideally, try to make, a transition.
219 00:22:29.030 ⇒ 00:22:37.729 Justin Breshears: Okay, yeah, happy to help out with that. Okay, I don’t know what’s fair as far as, like, rate or anything, because I know I’m, like, working without any kind of, like, contract.
220 00:22:37.730 ⇒ 00:22:47.269 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, so I still… I want to pay you for… I mean, I want to pay you for whatever we owe you, so I’m happy to keep going. I’m happy to sign a contract.
221 00:22:47.540 ⇒ 00:22:51.550 Uttam Kumaran: at basically full-time, or I can just do a rate
222 00:22:51.750 ⇒ 00:22:54.829 Uttam Kumaran: That would match that, and so you could just bill hourly.
223 00:22:55.010 ⇒ 00:22:57.490 Justin Breshears: Maybe that’s probably the easiest.
224 00:22:57.490 ⇒ 00:22:57.950 Uttam Kumaran: Okay.
225 00:22:57.950 ⇒ 00:22:58.610 Justin Breshears: That’s fine.
226 00:22:58.610 ⇒ 00:23:03.940 Uttam Kumaran: And then I’ll backdate all of it, so whatever the… Okay. Yeah, so that’s fine.
227 00:23:03.940 ⇒ 00:23:12.959 Justin Breshears: that works. Yeah, and I will do everything that I can to set y’all up. I don’t want to leave you hanging with anything, so I’ll do whatever interviewing, or…
228 00:23:13.130 ⇒ 00:23:15.880 Justin Breshears: The project stuff that I am to set y’all up.
229 00:23:16.290 ⇒ 00:23:18.820 Uttam Kumaran: Perfect. Are you, are you going in office?
230 00:23:19.250 ⇒ 00:23:21.309 Justin Breshears: 3 days a week, yeah.
231 00:23:22.340 ⇒ 00:23:23.539 Uttam Kumaran: Fucked. That’s fucked up.
232 00:23:23.540 ⇒ 00:23:31.520 Justin Breshears: That’s one of the biggest bummers, like, I… I hate that, honestly. You know, I have worked in an office for a total of 9 months in my entire career.
233 00:23:32.560 ⇒ 00:23:34.040 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, it’s
234 00:23:35.070 ⇒ 00:23:40.269 Uttam Kumaran: It’s… I don’t know, part of it is nice, but part of it is… part of it’s.
235 00:23:40.270 ⇒ 00:23:45.289 Justin Breshears: I really don’t… I really don’t want to, at all, in any way, do that.
236 00:23:45.390 ⇒ 00:23:49.929 Justin Breshears: like I said, like, I’m literally just making this decision for my family, but…
237 00:23:49.930 ⇒ 00:23:50.800 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
238 00:23:50.800 ⇒ 00:24:00.259 Justin Breshears: I did… so this company, like, one of the pros and cons that I’ve written now is, like, I would be happier at Brainforge than at this company.
239 00:24:00.260 ⇒ 00:24:05.979 Uttam Kumaran: No, but dude, it’s a great offer, man. 218, and then everything on top is a great offer. Tough.
240 00:24:05.980 ⇒ 00:24:06.800 Justin Breshears: I mean, it’s…
241 00:24:06.800 ⇒ 00:24:07.260 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
242 00:24:07.260 ⇒ 00:24:08.370 Justin Breshears: It’s, yeah, it’s just really.
243 00:24:08.370 ⇒ 00:24:15.660 Uttam Kumaran: It’s also a step up, like, this is why, like, typically people… most of the people in the company have taken a step down to come work with us.
244 00:24:16.430 ⇒ 00:24:20.809 Uttam Kumaran: But… It’s because… but also, most people at the company stay…
245 00:24:20.930 ⇒ 00:24:30.969 Uttam Kumaran: Unless, like, they start sucking. But everybody in the company has been here, and then we’ve grown them into doing, like, a bunch of stuff. But again, it’s a tough sell. It’s like,
246 00:24:31.220 ⇒ 00:24:36.990 Uttam Kumaran: It’s not a… this… just like everything around here, it’s not very normal, you know, so…
247 00:24:36.990 ⇒ 00:24:46.690 Justin Breshears: But there’s a lot of good in that, like, you really… I can’t… I’m not blowing sunshine out of your skirt, like, you built a good culture, you built a good, like, foundation and a good company on that, that, like…
248 00:24:47.080 ⇒ 00:24:53.579 Justin Breshears: people want to be at. Like, that’s nothing to sneeze at. You know, you’re… you’re not able to pay, like, you know.
249 00:24:54.310 ⇒ 00:24:56.769 Justin Breshears: Competing with these other companies, but you still.
250 00:24:56.770 ⇒ 00:24:57.310 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
251 00:24:57.310 ⇒ 00:25:04.490 Justin Breshears: like, great people. That says a lot about, like, Woodstream film. Yeah. To be honest. And it… the fact that it was, like.
252 00:25:04.870 ⇒ 00:25:07.769 Justin Breshears: Really, really difficult for me to make this decision, like…
253 00:25:07.910 ⇒ 00:25:12.880 Justin Breshears: I mean, that’s a significant difference in comp, and yet I was… I’ve been agonizing over it for, like.
254 00:25:12.880 ⇒ 00:25:13.380 Uttam Kumaran: No, no, no.
255 00:25:13.380 ⇒ 00:25:23.179 Justin Breshears: on end, like, that… because of that, because, like, you’ve built something good, so, like, you should be proud of that, and that’s why I don’t think, like, y’all are far off from, like.
256 00:25:23.520 ⇒ 00:25:26.679 Justin Breshears: Doubling or tripling, even, like, where you’re at.
257 00:25:27.030 ⇒ 00:25:32.369 Justin Breshears: So, again, it’s literally, this is a me issue that I have to make. It’s not a you issue.
258 00:25:32.510 ⇒ 00:25:35.809 Justin Breshears: I guess me and my own finances, that…
259 00:25:35.810 ⇒ 00:25:36.280 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
260 00:25:36.280 ⇒ 00:25:37.530 Justin Breshears: the reason, so…
261 00:25:38.220 ⇒ 00:25:42.089 Uttam Kumaran: Well, well, let me give you… I’ll give you a call again in, like, 6 months.
262 00:25:42.250 ⇒ 00:25:54.529 Uttam Kumaran: And, we’ll see where we’re at. I think I will have… we’ll have insurance, we’ll have some other stuff figured out, and you can tell me… you can name your price tool at that point, and then I’ll see what I can do.
263 00:25:54.530 ⇒ 00:25:58.610 Justin Breshears: I mean, honestly, if you want to go ahead and book it on the calendar, that’s fine with me, because I would love to…
264 00:25:58.610 ⇒ 00:26:08.379 Uttam Kumaran: No, no, no, I will say, dude, it’s been really… even in the short time you’ve been here, it’s changed the course of our company, so I definitely owe you, and… yeah, and…
265 00:26:08.380 ⇒ 00:26:14.720 Justin Breshears: I don’t know, I mean, anything, I’m happy to, like, have been able to provide some value. I think I have. I think I’ve provided some value.
266 00:26:14.720 ⇒ 00:26:15.829 Uttam Kumaran: For sure, I mean…
267 00:26:15.830 ⇒ 00:26:20.630 Justin Breshears: That’s the idea, is, you know, anywhere you go, you want to, like, leave it better than you found it, right? So…
268 00:26:20.630 ⇒ 00:26:21.280 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
269 00:26:21.730 ⇒ 00:26:25.719 Justin Breshears: That’s… I’m glad that in some small way, I’ve done that.
270 00:26:26.140 ⇒ 00:26:30.389 Justin Breshears: Yeah, we don’t know what the future holds. Six months from now, we may be right back here.
271 00:26:30.540 ⇒ 00:26:33.730 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, yeah, let’s see.
272 00:26:33.730 ⇒ 00:26:37.140 Justin Breshears: Am I just, like, I hate putting on pants every day and having to go to the office.
273 00:26:39.170 ⇒ 00:26:41.919 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I know. That’ll be the kicker.
274 00:26:42.270 ⇒ 00:26:42.600 Justin Breshears: What’s it.
275 00:26:43.130 ⇒ 00:26:47.139 Justin Breshears: I’m not looking forward to that, although office politics and whatnot.
276 00:26:47.470 ⇒ 00:26:47.920 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
277 00:26:47.920 ⇒ 00:26:54.019 Justin Breshears: If I want to take a break here, I, like, go down and hang out with my kids, or my mom, you know?
278 00:26:54.550 ⇒ 00:26:57.040 Justin Breshears: If I take a break there, I’m in some break room.
279 00:26:58.370 ⇒ 00:26:59.249 Justin Breshears: table or something.
280 00:26:59.250 ⇒ 00:27:02.549 Uttam Kumaran: No, you’ll be good. It’ll be nice.
281 00:27:03.100 ⇒ 00:27:03.800 Uttam Kumaran: That is good.
282 00:27:03.800 ⇒ 00:27:08.849 Justin Breshears: Gotta get back on my feet, man, we’ve had a tough… Couple of years, financially.
283 00:27:08.850 ⇒ 00:27:09.590 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
284 00:27:10.280 ⇒ 00:27:18.000 Uttam Kumaran: No, you’re good, dude. Yeah, let me know. I… we’re not going anywhere, we’ll… and I’m telling you, I always thought I’d build a company where we’d
285 00:27:18.150 ⇒ 00:27:20.990 Uttam Kumaran: We’d have less people, and we’d pay people over…
286 00:27:21.110 ⇒ 00:27:31.089 Uttam Kumaran: You know, so that’s still what my goal is. I want to have fewer people, and I want to have those people making as much as we can possibly give them, so it’s still, like…
287 00:27:31.090 ⇒ 00:27:34.940 Justin Breshears: You can do it, too, with the way you’re looking at it, with the AI enablement and, like.
288 00:27:34.940 ⇒ 00:27:35.490 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
289 00:27:35.490 ⇒ 00:27:44.019 Justin Breshears: even just, like, the kind of hub-and-spoke model of, like, the hub being, like, one admin, or somebody, like, help out coordinate, and then have, like.
290 00:27:44.240 ⇒ 00:27:45.870 Justin Breshears: them connected to a few.
291 00:27:45.870 ⇒ 00:27:49.169 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah. No, we’ve really done things so lean.
292 00:27:49.260 ⇒ 00:27:50.530 Justin Breshears: Yeah.
293 00:27:50.680 ⇒ 00:27:55.900 Uttam Kumaran: And, you know, we’ve paid the price for that. We’re also, like, reaping a lot of the benefits, but…
294 00:27:57.020 ⇒ 00:28:09.109 Uttam Kumaran: I don’t know, I don’t think I can… I… this is the same thing, it’s like, I can’t retain… I wouldn’t be able to retain someone like me if I didn’t have a scheme like that, you know? If I didn’t have something that was variable, something where
295 00:28:09.550 ⇒ 00:28:22.429 Uttam Kumaran: But again, that’s what AI has enabled in my business, is what… and, like, we’ve sold all this with no salespeople, like, no sales staff, with, like, no formal marketing staff, like, all of our team is, like.
296 00:28:22.840 ⇒ 00:28:25.879 Uttam Kumaran: Designers, or, like, copywriters, and so…
297 00:28:26.320 ⇒ 00:28:29.269 Uttam Kumaran: Trying to… we could… if we could just get to, like.
298 00:28:29.550 ⇒ 00:28:40.229 Uttam Kumaran: And if we can get to, like, 150, 200K in MRR, and keep a lot of this stuff stable, and just scale delivery, like, I think we’ll be there. So that’s sort of the hope.
299 00:28:40.830 ⇒ 00:28:41.410 Justin Breshears: Yeah.
300 00:28:41.880 ⇒ 00:28:42.560 Justin Breshears: No.
301 00:28:43.260 ⇒ 00:28:46.200 Justin Breshears: You’re not… that’s not from… you’re already over 100, right?
302 00:28:46.200 ⇒ 00:28:47.070 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
303 00:28:47.290 ⇒ 00:28:49.109 Uttam Kumaran: Very close, so…
304 00:28:49.370 ⇒ 00:28:52.199 Justin Breshears: And how long did it take you to get from 0 to 100?
305 00:28:52.990 ⇒ 00:28:54.040 Uttam Kumaran: Two years.
306 00:28:54.430 ⇒ 00:28:54.809 Justin Breshears: in two years.
307 00:28:55.180 ⇒ 00:28:55.570 Justin Breshears: That’s right.
308 00:28:55.570 ⇒ 00:28:56.580 Uttam Kumaran: A little over 2 years.
309 00:28:56.580 ⇒ 00:28:57.100 Justin Breshears: So…
310 00:28:57.540 ⇒ 00:29:03.460 Uttam Kumaran: But it took us… it took us a year and a half to get to… 50.
311 00:29:04.200 ⇒ 00:29:07.559 Justin Breshears: Okay, so it took you half a year to get the next 50.
312 00:29:08.000 ⇒ 00:29:11.200 Justin Breshears: And think about that when you get to, like, 200. Like, it’ll be…
313 00:29:11.200 ⇒ 00:29:12.440 Uttam Kumaran: No, I know, I would…
314 00:29:12.440 ⇒ 00:29:13.120 Justin Breshears: 6 months.
315 00:29:13.120 ⇒ 00:29:28.269 Uttam Kumaran: I would like to sleep at some point. Yeah, that would be nice. So, any 6 months now. But, you know, it’s… I don’t know, dude, this has been a climb, like, this has been 2 steps forward, 5 steps back, 8 steps forward the whole time, so…
316 00:29:28.360 ⇒ 00:29:35.639 Uttam Kumaran: I’m… I’m… we’ll… we’ll get there, and yeah, I… I… again, but I do think, dude, you’ll go there, and you just crush it there, like…
317 00:29:35.930 ⇒ 00:29:42.040 Uttam Kumaran: Try to get… try to… try to advance there, and… and change the remote policy, and…
318 00:29:42.350 ⇒ 00:29:50.740 Uttam Kumaran: and start to lead stuff there. Like, it’s clear that you… you were gonna come here and operate at a much lower level, but, like, sort of…
319 00:29:50.850 ⇒ 00:29:53.579 Uttam Kumaran: Basically, build the delivery from the ground up.
320 00:29:53.700 ⇒ 00:29:59.229 Uttam Kumaran: So, I think still, you have a large… at a company like that, you have a large ability to make a huge impact, you know?
321 00:29:59.460 ⇒ 00:30:00.489 Uttam Kumaran: So…
322 00:30:00.490 ⇒ 00:30:01.040 Justin Breshears: it up.
323 00:30:01.040 ⇒ 00:30:01.819 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I…
324 00:30:01.820 ⇒ 00:30:06.640 Justin Breshears: I don’t see… I don’t see operating a Brainforge as any kind of low level, though. It’s a…
325 00:30:06.640 ⇒ 00:30:19.509 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, it’s a different type of challenge, but, you know, you’re still… I get, like, I get it, like, you know, you’re still here doing tickets and doing the day-to-day. Like, I still push code. I don’t know, sometimes someone’s gotta sweep the floor if it’s messy.
326 00:30:19.510 ⇒ 00:30:25.679 Justin Breshears: I was doing all this in my last gig, too, like, I’ve never stopped, like, directly VMing projects, so…
327 00:30:25.810 ⇒ 00:30:33.970 Justin Breshears: I don’t think that stuff ever stops. In fact, as a leader, sometimes you’ve got to, like, show that you are willing to do all of the stuff that you’re asking of people to do, so…
328 00:30:33.970 ⇒ 00:30:34.700 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
329 00:30:35.140 ⇒ 00:30:41.569 Justin Breshears: I mean, I’m… in this next gig, I’m gonna still be delivering projects, like… That’s never gonna stop.
330 00:30:41.810 ⇒ 00:30:42.580 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
331 00:30:42.580 ⇒ 00:30:47.170 Justin Breshears: Nor should it, because it’s like, where the value is, is dealing with clients, right?
332 00:30:47.340 ⇒ 00:30:52.250 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah. Probably my only other ask is if anyone from your past life
333 00:30:52.370 ⇒ 00:30:55.290 Uttam Kumaran: in, like, PM was half decent.
334 00:30:56.220 ⇒ 00:30:57.279 Uttam Kumaran: Let me know.
335 00:30:58.250 ⇒ 00:31:01.930 Justin Breshears: I will try to… I mean.
336 00:31:02.730 ⇒ 00:31:04.609 Uttam Kumaran: If no one was good then.
337 00:31:04.610 ⇒ 00:31:06.349 Justin Breshears: I don’t have a long list of people that I.
338 00:31:06.350 ⇒ 00:31:06.690 Uttam Kumaran: Okay.
339 00:31:06.690 ⇒ 00:31:12.689 Justin Breshears: good in this context, to be honest, because a lot of the people that I worked with at Kayla, like, were…
340 00:31:12.870 ⇒ 00:31:22.090 Justin Breshears: pretty much the opposite of what you want. They’re, like, the… the, like, task pushers, like, ticket pushers, like, give me a checklist and a SOP, and, like, I’ll…
341 00:31:22.190 ⇒ 00:31:27.220 Justin Breshears: you know, Run it, but not a ton of them were, like.
342 00:31:27.330 ⇒ 00:31:31.320 Justin Breshears: I take ownership of my projects, right? Like, You know, how to…
343 00:31:31.480 ⇒ 00:31:33.950 Justin Breshears: Know how to, like, turn something around.
344 00:31:34.870 ⇒ 00:31:42.489 Justin Breshears: that was the stuff that I was struggling to, like, impart on my team a lot of times, was proper risk management, proper client management, things like that.
345 00:31:42.490 ⇒ 00:31:57.899 Uttam Kumaran: No, dude, this job is… this job is so hard, like, again, I was… I was product managing… like, I was leading product of this company, and I was product managing, like, 5 different work streams, but that’s where I learned, just under so much pressure, but I’m a… that’s why I’m kind of, like.
346 00:31:58.070 ⇒ 00:32:00.830 Uttam Kumaran: I’m a very detailed… even I go to stand-ups today, I’m like.
347 00:32:01.050 ⇒ 00:32:04.790 Uttam Kumaran: Why… this ticket doesn’t have anything in it, like… Go back.
348 00:32:05.040 ⇒ 00:32:06.120 Uttam Kumaran: Go back.
349 00:32:06.480 ⇒ 00:32:12.870 Uttam Kumaran: Stop asking… nope, groom this thing, we’re not talking about… because I just did it, so you can’t really… I’m not really,
350 00:32:13.470 ⇒ 00:32:18.310 Uttam Kumaran: I… it is a tough job. It’s a very, thankless gig.
351 00:32:18.630 ⇒ 00:32:24.409 Uttam Kumaran: But that’s where you have a lot of upward… like, you have folks like Robert and other people who have never seen great PMing.
352 00:32:24.790 ⇒ 00:32:31.250 Uttam Kumaran: And, like, this… the company, right, IPO most of our company, but they don’t see it like that. They see it as, like.
353 00:32:31.250 ⇒ 00:32:31.860 Justin Breshears: Right.
354 00:32:31.860 ⇒ 00:32:41.520 Uttam Kumaran: We’re organized. They don’t see that I’m literally, like… teams like marketing and sales do not run on sprints in normal companies, right?
355 00:32:41.520 ⇒ 00:32:42.100 Justin Breshears: They do not.
356 00:32:42.100 ⇒ 00:32:48.730 Uttam Kumaran: I said… I said, no, no, no, everything is in linear. No, no, no, like, we’re… no one’s hiding from…
357 00:32:49.100 ⇒ 00:33:05.049 Justin Breshears: The meeting you ran today is literally, like, the portfolio health reviews that I used to have weekly with my portfolio. Like, literally, like, let’s call out all the red projects, talk about them, like, you know, what’s… what can we do to, like, fix it? Okay, what are our staffing needs? Like, all that.
358 00:33:05.170 ⇒ 00:33:07.450 Justin Breshears: Literally the same as, like, I used to run.
359 00:33:07.560 ⇒ 00:33:11.220 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah. Because, dude, you go to meetings, and people don’t even want, like…
360 00:33:11.790 ⇒ 00:33:19.779 Uttam Kumaran: It’s just like, can we get the next decision, next decision, next decision? I’m like, I don’t like going to meetings where there’s not stuff getting done, but…
361 00:33:19.910 ⇒ 00:33:25.830 Uttam Kumaran: it’s, yeah, I mean, we project manage the whole company to this point, you know, so… .
362 00:33:25.830 ⇒ 00:33:27.140 Justin Breshears: Yeah, it’s a…
363 00:33:27.140 ⇒ 00:33:27.590 Uttam Kumaran: So…
364 00:33:27.590 ⇒ 00:33:34.869 Justin Breshears: It doesn’t surprise me that you say that about Robert. In fact, the comment that you made earlier today, like, is kind of what I’ve been feeling about, like.
365 00:33:35.530 ⇒ 00:33:36.939 Justin Breshears: I don’t know, I…
366 00:33:37.740 ⇒ 00:33:46.990 Justin Breshears: I think Robert is, like, a lot of what he deals with is probably just due to, like, lack of time and availability, and he’s just, like, popping in and out, like, whatever, but…
367 00:33:47.620 ⇒ 00:33:53.280 Justin Breshears: the interactions that I’ve had with him on projects have not been… Super great, to this point.
368 00:33:53.280 ⇒ 00:33:58.739 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, no, I agree, and I also don’t think he’s an easy person to work for. I think we’re very different.
369 00:33:59.000 ⇒ 00:34:02.130 Uttam Kumaran: And actually, I’m okay with that, because…
370 00:34:02.470 ⇒ 00:34:10.920 Uttam Kumaran: I think you have to be able to deal with folks like me, who are generally pretty easy to deal with, but, like, my…
371 00:34:11.130 ⇒ 00:34:19.419 Uttam Kumaran: expectations are really high, and Robert, who’s, like, I think tougher to deal with, but he also probably just has… he has, like, very basic expectations, and…
372 00:34:20.040 ⇒ 00:34:22.970 Uttam Kumaran: I don’t know, I think… I think that’s where it’s like a…
373 00:34:23.909 ⇒ 00:34:35.860 Uttam Kumaran: we’re different, and I feel like it’s worth having both of us here, because what he looks for and what he expects… and also even on the sales side, like, I’m not nearly as aggressive, and…
374 00:34:36.030 ⇒ 00:34:41.809 Uttam Kumaran: I sell in a much different way, but I think we need both… both tight people. But also, like, I’m much more of a…
375 00:34:42.370 ⇒ 00:34:55.830 Uttam Kumaran: I’m much more of an emotional person, and I need to have a relationship with everybody, versus… I… versus, like, his style, but again, like, we… I think it ticks both to sort of do something like this, you know? So…
376 00:34:56.070 ⇒ 00:35:04.870 Uttam Kumaran: But that’s not everybody. I mean, I think a lot of people, a lot of great engineers, they always… I doubt… I doubt… I don’t think most PMs are worth their weight, you know, at all.
377 00:35:05.260 ⇒ 00:35:06.210 Uttam Kumaran: And…
378 00:35:06.700 ⇒ 00:35:07.090 Uttam Kumaran: That’s funny.
379 00:35:07.090 ⇒ 00:35:10.089 Justin Breshears: I manage so many of them, and I can’t give you, like, a list of.
380 00:35:10.090 ⇒ 00:35:21.699 Uttam Kumaran: I know, that’s why… that’s why I’m also, like, even me, I’m like, for a while, we didn’t do stand-ups, because I was like, alright, it’s either I’m gonna run it, or we’re not gonna do them. And and… yeah, so…
381 00:35:22.100 ⇒ 00:35:23.640 Uttam Kumaran: Okay, cool.
382 00:35:23.880 ⇒ 00:35:27.820 Uttam Kumaran: So yeah, let’s plan on… let’s plan on the 27th, let me…
383 00:35:28.310 ⇒ 00:35:31.270 Uttam Kumaran: Get organized a bit this week.
384 00:35:31.640 ⇒ 00:35:35.459 Uttam Kumaran: My goal will be to try to land
385 00:35:36.190 ⇒ 00:35:39.079 Uttam Kumaran: to land somebody, if I can, before you go.
386 00:35:39.230 ⇒ 00:35:45.130 Uttam Kumaran: Because I would think I’d really appreciate you in the interview process to kind of see.
387 00:35:45.130 ⇒ 00:35:45.630 Justin Breshears: Yep.
388 00:35:45.630 ⇒ 00:35:51.839 Uttam Kumaran: as I… as I’m gonna interview, kind of like you… you did, but I think you… you now coming fresh and seeing this.
389 00:35:51.990 ⇒ 00:36:00.719 Uttam Kumaran: would be helpful. And then the last thing is, like, dude, I don’t know what your contract is with them, but if you still like to just be helpful, and we can pay you for it.
390 00:36:01.130 ⇒ 00:36:01.990 Uttam Kumaran: Like, let me know.
391 00:36:01.990 ⇒ 00:36:18.619 Justin Breshears: I’d be… I’d be happy to. That’s what I’m saying is, like, the… my phone… my phone is open and online for, you know, if you want to hop on a call or whatever, it may look like I’m driving home from the office now and, like, talking to you or something, but, dude, I’m always happy to, like, consult and talk about, like.
392 00:36:18.620 ⇒ 00:36:27.310 Uttam Kumaran: As you can see, we built the… we built the… yeah, we built the business on a lot of friends helping me out, so… and then ideally get to the point where I can pay them for their time, so…
393 00:36:27.310 ⇒ 00:36:30.729 Justin Breshears: Well, like, the allocation conversation, like, that direct.
394 00:36:30.730 ⇒ 00:36:31.070 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
395 00:36:31.070 ⇒ 00:36:34.810 Justin Breshears: like, I just saw, like, that in fruition, like, right now.
396 00:36:34.810 ⇒ 00:36:38.460 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, you saw, we went from a week and a half to the whole thing working.
397 00:36:38.460 ⇒ 00:36:39.370 Justin Breshears: Yeah. And that’s it.
398 00:36:39.370 ⇒ 00:36:42.740 Uttam Kumaran: And so that’s… so that’s, that’s the stuff I’ve…
399 00:36:42.740 ⇒ 00:36:45.289 Justin Breshears: Lorraine, you are always welcome to reach out.
400 00:36:45.290 ⇒ 00:36:46.810 Uttam Kumaran: I appreciate it. Okay.
401 00:36:47.650 ⇒ 00:36:49.550 Justin Breshears: Dude, I wanna see you succeed, like…
402 00:36:49.920 ⇒ 00:37:05.449 Justin Breshears: Just because I’m not in a risk-tolerance, you know, place to help out right now, doesn’t mean I… I want to see you kill it. I want to see what’s on the fancy, you know, influential CEO of a billion-dollar business.
403 00:37:05.450 ⇒ 00:37:05.870 Uttam Kumaran: I.
404 00:37:05.870 ⇒ 00:37:08.419 Justin Breshears: You deserve it for all the hard work that y’all have put in.
405 00:37:08.830 ⇒ 00:37:10.609 Uttam Kumaran: Thanks, man. I appreciate it.
406 00:37:10.720 ⇒ 00:37:13.149 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, and I think if I could just ask.
407 00:37:13.440 ⇒ 00:37:20.530 Uttam Kumaran: to just keep trying to crush it this next 3 weeks. This time, you know, having this couple days free this week.
408 00:37:20.720 ⇒ 00:37:23.440 Uttam Kumaran: I’m crushing through so many big…
409 00:37:23.560 ⇒ 00:37:27.660 Uttam Kumaran: rocks that I… we’ve been putting off for a long time, and…
410 00:37:27.840 ⇒ 00:37:32.810 Uttam Kumaran: even if I could just get a couple more weeks of that would be tremendous for us this quarter, so… Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
411 00:37:32.810 ⇒ 00:37:36.769 Justin Breshears: I’ll keep going, I’ll keep going as is, and yeah, like, just…
412 00:37:37.380 ⇒ 00:37:42.210 Uttam Kumaran: And maybe also while… to get maybe one last thing out of you is, like.
413 00:37:42.500 ⇒ 00:37:47.889 Uttam Kumaran: what would… what is, like, PM transition look like if we can build an SOP around that?
414 00:37:47.890 ⇒ 00:37:48.420 Justin Breshears: No.
415 00:37:48.690 ⇒ 00:37:54.520 Uttam Kumaran: I’m curious, of course, now we have rituals and things like that, but even, like, the soft stuff.
416 00:37:54.650 ⇒ 00:37:58.850 Uttam Kumaran: how we can build… this isn’t gonna be the first time Project.
417 00:37:58.850 ⇒ 00:38:08.100 Justin Breshears: That was the hardest part. Yeah, that was the hardest part, like, with me coming in on, like, insomnia and stuff, like, I got no information of, like, what was going on.
418 00:38:08.100 ⇒ 00:38:15.580 Uttam Kumaran: No, this isn’t gonna be the first time PMs leave, and PM is a very highly leveraged… like, engineer, I can… I can plug in and out.
419 00:38:16.480 ⇒ 00:38:21.240 Uttam Kumaran: PM is very tough, because it’s a driver, so I want to make sure that we have a good
420 00:38:21.600 ⇒ 00:38:23.939 Uttam Kumaran: Like, redundancy plan, and, like.
421 00:38:23.940 ⇒ 00:38:29.889 Justin Breshears: In software, like, engineering, you could be like, well, I have these, like, tickets in the backlog, like, coming up, or whatever, like, PMs is.
422 00:38:29.890 ⇒ 00:38:37.620 Uttam Kumaran: And the client often doesn’t care. The PM is really, like, my, like, right hand for, like, is this client going well, you know, so…
423 00:38:37.880 ⇒ 00:38:41.279 Uttam Kumaran: Ideally, if we can build something around, like, okay, if we are to…
424 00:38:41.430 ⇒ 00:38:44.340 Uttam Kumaran: transition or switch PMs out of projects.
425 00:38:44.550 ⇒ 00:38:48.680 Uttam Kumaran: what does that look like? And the first test will be that person we bring on, so…
426 00:38:49.270 ⇒ 00:38:52.630 Justin Breshears: Okay, well, yeah, I can definitely put my thoughts down on that.
427 00:38:53.340 ⇒ 00:38:58.020 Uttam Kumaran: Cool, dude. Well, I appreciate you being honest with me, and I appreciate the kind words, where…
428 00:38:58.220 ⇒ 00:39:12.209 Uttam Kumaran: we’re… we’ll be there, and then, yeah, I will give you a phone call. I’ll give you a phone call next year, and… and then, yeah, I… I… I really do think that, like, there’s some people in life where I think we’ll work… we’ll work together again, like, I really think you’re…
429 00:39:12.840 ⇒ 00:39:18.289 Uttam Kumaran: I think you deserve to run, like, the entire delivery organization for one of these companies, like.
430 00:39:18.930 ⇒ 00:39:33.959 Uttam Kumaran: I… I wish that that’s what the offer they would have given you, but, like, you have what it takes. I mean, I’m glad you found my company, but I do think that you… you’re… you have what it takes to do that. Like, I think you have the… on the… you have, like, the player-coach demeanor to do that, for sure.
431 00:39:35.100 ⇒ 00:39:36.819 Justin Breshears: So, you should keep pushing for that.
432 00:39:37.500 ⇒ 00:39:39.280 Justin Breshears: I appreciate that, yeah.
433 00:39:39.520 ⇒ 00:39:50.189 Justin Breshears: Thank you. I… I do hope that you’re right, and we get to work again, together. Yeah. Because, yeah, I do… I do respect you, and I would love to work together again.
434 00:39:50.190 ⇒ 00:39:50.820 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
435 00:39:51.130 ⇒ 00:39:52.929 Justin Breshears: We’ll see what happens in the future.
436 00:39:53.070 ⇒ 00:39:54.529 Uttam Kumaran: Appreciate it, dude. Okay.
437 00:39:54.530 ⇒ 00:40:00.550 Justin Breshears: Alright, well, I’ll let you go. Yeah, I’ll keep, trying to leave you in the best spot I can over the next couple weeks.
438 00:40:00.730 ⇒ 00:40:02.070 Uttam Kumaran: Cool. Alright. Thanks, man.
439 00:40:02.070 ⇒ 00:40:02.670 Justin Breshears: Alright.
440 00:40:02.960 ⇒ 00:40:04.109 Uttam Kumaran: Okay, bye.