2025-10-02_brainforge_pm_standards_discussion_bb4536e9

Meeting Title: Brainforge PM Standards Discussion Date: 2025-10-02 Meeting participants: Justin Breshears, Uttam Kumaran, 19257868273

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WEBVTT

1 00:02:44.130 ⇒ 00:02:45.320 Uttam Kumaran: Hello?

2 00:02:46.540 ⇒ 00:02:47.550 Justin Breshears: Ayy!

3 00:02:47.860 ⇒ 00:02:48.840 Uttam Kumaran: a…

4 00:02:49.130 ⇒ 00:02:51.629 Justin Breshears: Thanks for being flexible on time.

5 00:02:52.280 ⇒ 00:03:01.470 Uttam Kumaran: You’re good, I’m getting… got a little bit of free time, so I’m just trying to, like, wrap up OKRs and all the allocations and things right now, so…

6 00:03:02.300 ⇒ 00:03:05.439 Justin Breshears: Nothing… nothing we were doing was urgent, so all good.

7 00:03:06.430 ⇒ 00:03:17.440 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I just… I… we just really need to close out everything for this quarter so I can make decisions on hiring, so… it is slightly urgent, because I have to plan out, like, a whole quarter.

8 00:03:17.660 ⇒ 00:03:18.060 Justin Breshears: Nice.

9 00:03:18.060 ⇒ 00:03:19.480 Uttam Kumaran: I don’t want to rush, get it done.

10 00:03:19.620 ⇒ 00:03:21.580 Justin Breshears: That stuff is urgent.

11 00:03:22.070 ⇒ 00:03:25.669 Justin Breshears: Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, so…

12 00:03:25.670 ⇒ 00:03:29.489 Uttam Kumaran: But I want to make sure that also, like, I can… anything around,

13 00:03:30.550 ⇒ 00:03:34.439 Uttam Kumaran: I kinda wanna just get a sense from you today, if we have a chance to…

14 00:03:34.550 ⇒ 00:03:41.889 Uttam Kumaran: just talk through, like, PM standards so we can start to… I mean, on my side, I can start to have AI teams start to pick out a few things.

15 00:03:42.380 ⇒ 00:03:48.799 Uttam Kumaran: They’re kind of just sitting waiting for next steps, so we have a little bit of budget for them, and then… yeah, sort of,

16 00:03:49.790 ⇒ 00:03:53.990 Uttam Kumaran: Okay, go from there, but also, if you have anything, any topics for us today, we can cover as well.

17 00:03:54.140 ⇒ 00:04:01.550 Justin Breshears: Yeah, I know you wanted to talk about this, so I put together this, kind of work-in-progress doc here.

18 00:04:01.820 ⇒ 00:04:05.430 Justin Breshears: Oh, no, are you… You’re cooking a late lunch, or can you see my screen?

19 00:04:05.430 ⇒ 00:04:07.569 Uttam Kumaran: No, no, I can see your screen, yeah, I’m with you.

20 00:04:08.460 ⇒ 00:04:09.790 Justin Breshears: Okay.

21 00:04:10.250 ⇒ 00:04:14.000 Justin Breshears: I kind of broke this into key principles, just like…

22 00:04:15.120 ⇒ 00:04:19.839 Justin Breshears: Attitudes or personality traits, characteristics, you name it, of…

23 00:04:20.240 ⇒ 00:04:37.199 Justin Breshears: who is successful as PMs. And then key skills, where it’s… here’s kind of the nuts and bolts of, like, what it takes to actually deliver here. And then success criteria, obviously drawing on the OKRs that we’ve talked about. These things will show us that you’re being successful.

24 00:04:37.320 ⇒ 00:04:44.450 Justin Breshears: metric projects. So going through here, I think first thing that is most important in

25 00:04:45.400 ⇒ 00:04:48.150 Justin Breshears: Project management is just having an ownership mentality.

26 00:04:48.580 ⇒ 00:04:56.830 Justin Breshears: you own the outcomes of your projects. I’ve heard way too many times in running projects, well, that’s not my job, or

27 00:04:57.350 ⇒ 00:05:01.590 Justin Breshears: you know, so-and-so was supposed to do that. As a PM, like, you… you own…

28 00:05:01.800 ⇒ 00:05:03.929 Justin Breshears: The responsibilities of everybody in our project.

29 00:05:04.280 ⇒ 00:05:12.739 Justin Breshears: Proactivity, thinking ahead, what could, you know, come up, what issues, risks do I see in calling them out and getting ahead of them.

30 00:05:13.170 ⇒ 00:05:19.689 Justin Breshears: By the second of us. Throw-ness. I don’t know if that’s even a word.

31 00:05:19.690 ⇒ 00:05:28.519 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, like, I agree with thoroughness. I almost… it’s, like, uncompromising, or, like, perfectionism.

32 00:05:28.700 ⇒ 00:05:34.530 Uttam Kumaran: It’s maybe, like… A way to, like, really push the needle there.

33 00:05:34.910 ⇒ 00:05:40.140 Uttam Kumaran: Or, like, attention to detail, I don’t know, I sort of, like… It’s sort of like…

34 00:05:40.260 ⇒ 00:05:54.630 Uttam Kumaran: hey, that… that… the… I… what… you know, we were sharing diagrams earlier, and I was, like, corrected a bunch of, like, capitalization. I’m like, it’s just small details. Yeah. It’s, like, part of that, you know, but maybe perfection is one, too, I don’t know.

35 00:05:54.630 ⇒ 00:05:58.699 Justin Breshears: it goes right into the next one, too, because I think that’s professionalism, like.

36 00:05:58.700 ⇒ 00:05:59.370 Uttam Kumaran: Okay.

37 00:05:59.890 ⇒ 00:06:06.759 Justin Breshears: how you… what you present to a client being, like, typo-free is, like, part of professionalism to me.

38 00:06:07.000 ⇒ 00:06:09.950 Justin Breshears: So it’s, like, kind of these two are very linked to me.

39 00:06:10.280 ⇒ 00:06:23.669 Justin Breshears: There’s probably a thousand other ones that I can think of, but I don’t want to, like, overload this, too. I want it to be kind of, like, what’s the most important to us. So, thoughts on those kind of high-level principles.

40 00:06:25.920 ⇒ 00:06:28.190 Uttam Kumaran: I feel good about that,

41 00:06:28.790 ⇒ 00:06:31.500 Uttam Kumaran: Let me… give me his… let me just, like, give me, like…

42 00:06:31.610 ⇒ 00:06:33.509 Uttam Kumaran: 30 seconds, let me just, like, think…

43 00:06:34.080 ⇒ 00:06:34.770 Justin Breshears: Sure.

44 00:06:37.570 ⇒ 00:06:40.669 Justin Breshears: Yeah, more than that, if you want to, like, review it later.

45 00:06:40.670 ⇒ 00:06:50.100 Uttam Kumaran: No, no, no. I just think while we’re thinking about it, let me just, like… actually good to get, like, a gut… I feel like… I feel pretty good about the ownership mentality.

46 00:06:50.420 ⇒ 00:06:58.520 Uttam Kumaran: I feel pretty good about the thoroughness profession…

47 00:07:00.580 ⇒ 00:07:02.580 Uttam Kumaran: You know, one ways of thinking is, like.

48 00:07:03.340 ⇒ 00:07:15.480 Uttam Kumaran: what is unique about the… like, are these things that everybody on the team should have? Like, what makes the PM unique? Like, one of the things that I would say is also optimism, or like…

49 00:07:17.820 ⇒ 00:07:32.620 Uttam Kumaran: It could be optimism, it could be, like, clarity under pressure. It’s sort of like, look, even a client meeting where client gets mad, and your engineer, like, these sort of, like, halts, and you need to be the one that’s sort of, like.

50 00:07:33.030 ⇒ 00:07:34.880 Uttam Kumaran: Cuts through the tension, and, like.

51 00:07:35.100 ⇒ 00:07:36.910 Justin Breshears: Yeah, I don’t know what that is.

52 00:07:37.190 ⇒ 00:07:39.500 Justin Breshears: Level-headedness, maybe?

53 00:07:39.500 ⇒ 00:07:41.710 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, or like,

54 00:07:45.580 ⇒ 00:07:49.440 Uttam Kumaran: You know, I kind of lumped that under professionalism, though, or, I don’t know, maybe.

55 00:07:50.650 ⇒ 00:07:57.260 Justin Breshears: Yeah, I kind of view it as professionalism, like, I think… I don’t think a client and what they say to me should ever, like.

56 00:07:57.450 ⇒ 00:08:00.960 Justin Breshears: Really affect my emotions.

57 00:08:01.160 ⇒ 00:08:01.860 Justin Breshears: Hi, thank you.

58 00:08:01.860 ⇒ 00:08:02.640 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.

59 00:08:02.640 ⇒ 00:08:12.879 Justin Breshears: you know, take whatever they’re saying and understand the root of it, right? They’re yelling at me, they’re probably not happy with certain things, so, like, let’s find out what they’re not happy with, you know?

60 00:08:13.380 ⇒ 00:08:15.809 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, it could also be, like…

61 00:08:16.620 ⇒ 00:08:25.429 Uttam Kumaran: this person is, like, the heartbeat, like, of the project. But I don’t know, again, we’re considering, like, the strategist, so trying to just think about, like.

62 00:08:25.970 ⇒ 00:08:30.070 Uttam Kumaran: For me, I would say I bias towards the project manager.

63 00:08:30.640 ⇒ 00:08:35.609 Uttam Kumaran: most organized person in the room. Yeah. You know, like, at any moment.

64 00:08:35.880 ⇒ 00:08:38.640 Uttam Kumaran: If one brother person on the call

65 00:08:38.890 ⇒ 00:08:42.799 Uttam Kumaran: Doesn’t know or drops the ball, like, that person has the answers.

66 00:08:42.909 ⇒ 00:08:54.280 Uttam Kumaran: But again, the answer can be, like, okay, what is the… what is the plan forward? Not exactly the answer. So I don’t know, I guess… I guess, like, yeah, I’m fairly okay with this. I think, for me, the biggest thing is, like.

67 00:08:54.390 ⇒ 00:09:00.280 Uttam Kumaran: I think attention to detail is something that, because we’ve just been in startup mode, I haven’t…

68 00:09:00.790 ⇒ 00:09:15.830 Uttam Kumaran: like, pressed on across the entire company, but what you’ll see on our marketing and design side is I actually… I’ve… we’ve really, really had a close attention to detail and design, because we just, like.

69 00:09:16.100 ⇒ 00:09:20.669 Uttam Kumaran: I wanted it to be really, really spot-on, versus the client stuff, I think we were just…

70 00:09:20.950 ⇒ 00:09:24.249 Uttam Kumaran: figuring stuff out, and now I want to get to a point where

71 00:09:24.470 ⇒ 00:09:28.590 Uttam Kumaran: Okay, there is a level of expectation of, like, perfectionism, you know?

72 00:09:28.710 ⇒ 00:09:35.990 Uttam Kumaran: Especially on the coordination detail side, because that cascades to everybody on the team.

73 00:09:38.810 ⇒ 00:09:39.390 Justin Breshears: Yeah.

74 00:09:40.980 ⇒ 00:09:46.550 Justin Breshears: Agreed. Yeah, I mean, this can… we can add to it, or… or whatever, as we…

75 00:09:47.000 ⇒ 00:09:47.970 Justin Breshears: Come up with them.

76 00:09:48.160 ⇒ 00:09:48.690 Uttam Kumaran: Okay.

77 00:09:48.690 ⇒ 00:09:53.509 Justin Breshears: I haven’t put it here, but, like, one of the things that I’ve realized that is…

78 00:09:53.660 ⇒ 00:09:58.329 Justin Breshears: A really key skill for a PM is a healthy paranoia.

79 00:09:58.810 ⇒ 00:10:08.280 Justin Breshears: So it’s like, I find that people that are just, like, really optimistic about projects aren’t good project managers, because they only see the best in situations where

80 00:10:08.940 ⇒ 00:10:15.959 Justin Breshears: you know, you gotta have to look and see, like, what could go wrong, right? So I say healthy paranoia, I don’t want to be, like, super paranoid, but…

81 00:10:17.460 ⇒ 00:10:18.000 Justin Breshears: You gotta…

82 00:10:18.000 ⇒ 00:10:18.340 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.

83 00:10:18.340 ⇒ 00:10:22.830 Justin Breshears: what could go wrong here, and how do I stop it from going wrong? So…

84 00:10:22.960 ⇒ 00:10:26.660 Justin Breshears: Kind of rolls up into these, like, proactivity, mainly.

85 00:10:26.770 ⇒ 00:10:30.230 Justin Breshears: And put it here.

86 00:10:30.610 ⇒ 00:10:31.260 Uttam Kumaran: Che.

87 00:10:32.970 ⇒ 00:10:34.520 Justin Breshears: So that’s that.

88 00:10:39.960 ⇒ 00:10:45.249 Justin Breshears: And the skills is more tactical. So, what rolls up into that?

89 00:10:45.390 ⇒ 00:10:52.710 Justin Breshears: Obviously we talked about… can run all sprint ceremonies effectively. I don’t know if I need to list out all of them, but I did.

90 00:10:53.420 ⇒ 00:10:57.699 Justin Breshears: responsiveness to client communications from the SLA in 2 business hours.

91 00:10:58.160 ⇒ 00:11:02.480 Justin Breshears: Stakeholder management, Internal and external.

92 00:11:03.190 ⇒ 00:11:07.239 Justin Breshears: So, there’s stakeholders, like, On both sides in every project.

93 00:11:07.950 ⇒ 00:11:10.009 Justin Breshears: Ensuring their satisfaction.

94 00:11:10.450 ⇒ 00:11:12.240 Justin Breshears: There’s attention to detail.

95 00:11:16.050 ⇒ 00:11:18.640 Justin Breshears: Proper prioritization.

96 00:11:18.930 ⇒ 00:11:22.140 Justin Breshears: You organize work based on correct priority and velocity?

97 00:11:23.390 ⇒ 00:11:25.699 Justin Breshears: Budget management, staying within margins.

98 00:11:26.050 ⇒ 00:11:30.360 Justin Breshears: While still delivering… I don’t know, maybe I had both.

99 00:11:30.360 ⇒ 00:11:38.389 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah… Or, basically, it’s like… Yeah, delivering at high level, or…

100 00:11:39.420 ⇒ 00:11:51.540 Uttam Kumaran: I am… yeah, delivering a high level, and, like, the client is happy, because this is where I… I don’t want to… we can change and deliver as long as we communicate, right? So…

101 00:11:51.540 ⇒ 00:11:52.130 Justin Breshears: Yeah.

102 00:11:52.130 ⇒ 00:12:07.120 Uttam Kumaran: I guess to deliver at a high level, keeping client happy, that’s what matters. People aren’t… people aren’t… it’s not… it’s not bad to miss deadlines, as long as we adjust and, like, we get ahead of it, you know? Or we say, hey, something unexpected came up.

103 00:12:08.750 ⇒ 00:12:09.320 Justin Breshears: Yeah.

104 00:12:09.600 ⇒ 00:12:10.440 Justin Breshears: For sure.

105 00:12:11.000 ⇒ 00:12:14.619 Justin Breshears: Next one’s great communication, you present well.

106 00:12:15.050 ⇒ 00:12:17.750 Justin Breshears: organization.

107 00:12:19.040 ⇒ 00:12:19.860 Justin Breshears: Big one.

108 00:12:21.380 ⇒ 00:12:27.600 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I would also probably talk… if there’s something around… Like, team camaraderie.

109 00:12:28.210 ⇒ 00:12:32.509 Uttam Kumaran: Like… I think,

110 00:12:33.160 ⇒ 00:12:38.780 Uttam Kumaran: I should… I was reading this thing yesterday, but… Basically, it’s like, I… I think…

111 00:12:39.120 ⇒ 00:12:49.440 Uttam Kumaran: PMs should really have a great relationship with the folks they work with, because it will come back to…

112 00:12:49.830 ⇒ 00:12:50.940 Uttam Kumaran: Help you.

113 00:12:51.180 ⇒ 00:12:55.420 Uttam Kumaran: You know, so a couple things, and I’ll actually, I’ll send you this.

114 00:12:55.910 ⇒ 00:13:01.860 Uttam Kumaran: article, because I think it was, I think it was relevance…

115 00:13:02.810 ⇒ 00:13:05.659 Uttam Kumaran: I’ll tag you and email myself, everybody.

116 00:13:07.030 ⇒ 00:13:12.599 Uttam Kumaran: Basically, a couple of things they wrote was building relationships between them.

117 00:13:12.890 ⇒ 00:13:20.320 Uttam Kumaran: Understanding the real incentives, managing up effectively, creating win-win situations, being visible. I really love that.

118 00:13:20.880 ⇒ 00:13:24.390 Uttam Kumaran: Like, I think it’s…

119 00:13:24.580 ⇒ 00:13:37.469 Uttam Kumaran: Building relationships before you need them is something that I have done throughout my career, and it’s, like, the only reason I’m, like, I’ve ever grown, because I met and spend time with people, even with no

120 00:13:38.790 ⇒ 00:13:43.540 Uttam Kumaran: of, like, what this would mean. And certainly, for people on your project.

121 00:13:43.990 ⇒ 00:13:47.359 Uttam Kumaran: There’s no way for her to understand, like.

122 00:13:47.550 ⇒ 00:13:52.940 Uttam Kumaran: Where they live, what they’re up to, what they like. Like, those are all ways of just building trust as a leader.

123 00:13:53.240 ⇒ 00:13:58.019 Uttam Kumaran: And I also think that, like, being visible.

124 00:13:58.810 ⇒ 00:14:01.060 Uttam Kumaran: Is also, like, a really, really great one.

125 00:14:03.230 ⇒ 00:14:07.979 Justin Breshears: I love that, all of that stuff in there. I very much subscribe to all of the…

126 00:14:09.350 ⇒ 00:14:11.580 Uttam Kumaran: So I think maybe something around…

127 00:14:12.020 ⇒ 00:14:18.270 Uttam Kumaran: I would vote to add something here that’s around building relationships Where you need them.

128 00:14:19.070 ⇒ 00:14:19.910 Uttam Kumaran: Yes.

129 00:14:20.260 ⇒ 00:14:21.620 Uttam Kumaran: Team leadership.

130 00:14:24.290 ⇒ 00:14:31.530 Justin Breshears: I’m big on this principle of, like, leading without authority with PMs, because you never have, like, formal authority as a PM on a team.

131 00:14:31.530 ⇒ 00:14:32.190 Uttam Kumaran: S.

132 00:14:33.350 ⇒ 00:14:44.589 Justin Breshears: But you still have to lead. So you have to lead people where they need to go, so what does that look like? You lead through building those relationships, you lead through influencing and, you know.

133 00:14:44.960 ⇒ 00:14:49.299 Justin Breshears: being capable. Nobody wants to follow somebody who’s incompetent.

134 00:14:49.470 ⇒ 00:14:54.730 Justin Breshears: Things like that. That’s leading without authority. I could do a whole training on that.

135 00:14:55.220 ⇒ 00:15:03.789 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, another… so it’s sort of like what we were talking about in Zoom today, which is, like, how do you make our stakeholder the star? Maybe that is part of stakeholder management.

136 00:15:04.200 ⇒ 00:15:11.039 Uttam Kumaran: A lot of people that we work with, they just want to get to the next promo. They want to crush whatever their goals are.

137 00:15:11.040 ⇒ 00:15:12.340 Justin Breshears: Right. And…

138 00:15:12.340 ⇒ 00:15:13.930 Uttam Kumaran: We are not the star.

139 00:15:14.360 ⇒ 00:15:14.940 Justin Breshears: Correct.

140 00:15:14.940 ⇒ 00:15:22.760 Uttam Kumaran: we… by not being the star watching it, we will therefore become the star. So it’s not like… that’s what I kind of want to highlight here, and I think…

141 00:15:22.760 ⇒ 00:15:23.330 Justin Breshears: you.

142 00:15:23.720 ⇒ 00:15:27.039 Uttam Kumaran: I don’t think any of our folks right now are particularly, like.

143 00:15:27.660 ⇒ 00:15:33.739 Uttam Kumaran: have a hard job doing that, but I do think that sometimes we… we fail to sit and look at, like, okay.

144 00:15:33.740 ⇒ 00:15:35.780 Justin Breshears: John, at our client, like.

145 00:15:36.090 ⇒ 00:15:37.630 Uttam Kumaran: what do they want? Like.

146 00:15:37.900 ⇒ 00:15:52.830 Uttam Kumaran: how long have they been at this company? Like, what’s next for them? Like, how do… how do I get them to that next point and give them all the ammo they need to get the promotion headcount they’re going for? Like, I don’t think we do enough of that at all. And I think…

147 00:15:53.570 ⇒ 00:15:56.600 Uttam Kumaran: There are these subtle ways of…

148 00:15:57.190 ⇒ 00:16:03.129 Uttam Kumaran: Understanding the incentives, and then building towards that, that can really help projects succeed.

149 00:16:05.160 ⇒ 00:16:05.990 Justin Breshears: For sure.

150 00:16:06.980 ⇒ 00:16:11.270 Justin Breshears: I agree, and just, like, relationship building with them, too, gets you there right off the bat, I mean…

151 00:16:11.570 ⇒ 00:16:18.019 Justin Breshears: I mean, like, today’s call, like, I don’t have a lot of the technical answers or anything, or any of the technical answers, but…

152 00:16:18.170 ⇒ 00:16:20.190 Justin Breshears: Like, I try to focus on, like.

153 00:16:20.740 ⇒ 00:16:26.020 Justin Breshears: just building a relationship, like, ensuring them, like, hey, we’ll get you where you need to go. You know, we…

154 00:16:26.510 ⇒ 00:16:29.310 Justin Breshears: We care, like, we’ll be able to, you know.

155 00:16:29.440 ⇒ 00:16:33.500 Justin Breshears: give you what you need, the recommendations you need, like, stuff like that. I mean, I say…

156 00:16:33.880 ⇒ 00:16:39.260 Justin Breshears: reaffirming things like that constantly to clients. And even, like, silly things, like…

157 00:16:39.560 ⇒ 00:16:41.879 Justin Breshears: Hey, we’re best friends now, like, stuff like that.

158 00:16:41.880 ⇒ 00:16:42.720 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.

159 00:16:42.720 ⇒ 00:16:52.220 Justin Breshears: It’s like, all goes into that, where it’s like, no, I’m on your team, like, I’m your partner. I use the term partner a lot. We’ll partner with you on this, or, like, we’re really…

160 00:16:52.630 ⇒ 00:16:58.979 Justin Breshears: I don’t know, those words matter to me. I really, like, believe words matter a lot more than people think they do.

161 00:16:59.090 ⇒ 00:17:08.470 Justin Breshears: So, like, I try to use words that, like, affirm, like, I’m on your side. Like, you hired me, and, like, I want to make you successful and make you, you know, happy with what we do.

162 00:17:08.470 ⇒ 00:17:09.160 Uttam Kumaran: Yes.

163 00:17:10.990 ⇒ 00:17:11.790 Uttam Kumaran: Okay.

164 00:17:12.750 ⇒ 00:17:16.749 Justin Breshears: So I put… Like, what you said, make your clients the star of the show here.

165 00:17:17.880 ⇒ 00:17:23.899 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, it’s all people, dude. It’s… sometimes we forget that these aren’t, like, the CEOs, commonly, of the companies, and, like.

166 00:17:24.329 ⇒ 00:17:26.739 Uttam Kumaran: These are just people at companies, and like…

167 00:17:27.250 ⇒ 00:17:27.940 Justin Breshears: Yeah.

168 00:17:28.339 ⇒ 00:17:35.239 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, it’s like, for Caitlin, like, I know Caitlin, I know why she’s there, I know kind of, like, what her incentive is.

169 00:17:35.569 ⇒ 00:17:40.879 Uttam Kumaran: And… we wanna… I wanna… I wanna make her the star, like, I want her…

170 00:17:41.129 ⇒ 00:17:44.589 Uttam Kumaran: like, whatever we succeed, I want her to get the credit for it.

171 00:17:44.769 ⇒ 00:17:50.609 Uttam Kumaran: And, because it doesn’t matter, like, we’re gonna… we’re getting paid. Like, that’s what we care about. And I think…

172 00:17:51.359 ⇒ 00:17:56.749 Uttam Kumaran: Sometimes we’ve missed that, like, we’ve fought for ourselves, we fought for our stakeholder.

173 00:17:56.939 ⇒ 00:18:01.919 Uttam Kumaran: And that can happen, like, we may not agree with the person that’s directly with us, okay, but, like.

174 00:18:02.579 ⇒ 00:18:07.229 Uttam Kumaran: we have to find a way to get on the same page. Either we convince them, or we have to…

175 00:18:08.029 ⇒ 00:18:12.499 Uttam Kumaran: We have to find out… Yeah, there has to be some way forward.

176 00:18:12.910 ⇒ 00:18:16.420 Justin Breshears: For sure I agree.

177 00:18:16.830 ⇒ 00:18:23.159 Justin Breshears: Yeah, what I saw in Audrey today was just somebody who has a big task ahead of them, and…

178 00:18:23.350 ⇒ 00:18:28.250 Justin Breshears: like, there’s so many things that they have to do that she was overwhelmed. So, like…

179 00:18:29.150 ⇒ 00:18:35.829 Justin Breshears: Having us, like, come in and just, like, reassure her that, like, she’s gonna be able to figure all this stuff out is huge, probably, for her.

180 00:18:38.700 ⇒ 00:18:39.819 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I agree.

181 00:18:42.520 ⇒ 00:18:47.469 Justin Breshears: Yeah, anything else on skills that you want to add?

182 00:18:52.540 ⇒ 00:19:00.990 Uttam Kumaran: Maybe I’ll, as part of great communication, I think maybe we should particularly write something about, like, great…

183 00:19:01.660 ⇒ 00:19:04.400 Uttam Kumaran: Remote asynchronous communication.

184 00:19:05.160 ⇒ 00:19:11.419 Uttam Kumaran: Like, I do think that there’s some… and this could be maybe around professionals, but I do think it’s important to have, like.

185 00:19:11.700 ⇒ 00:19:19.020 Uttam Kumaran: a great microphone, like, a webcam to look present, like, those are all, I think, very, very important things.

186 00:19:19.540 ⇒ 00:19:26.099 Uttam Kumaran: Engineers can get away because they have the technical brains and their expectations are different.

187 00:19:26.200 ⇒ 00:19:30.210 Uttam Kumaran: But the projector is to come in and

188 00:19:30.640 ⇒ 00:19:33.869 Uttam Kumaran: And should be the one out of the crew that’s…

189 00:19:34.180 ⇒ 00:19:47.909 Uttam Kumaran: that overdressed, and that should buy towards being… it’s always better to be overdressed than underdressed, you know? So that’s, like… that’s what I’m expecting, like, you never know with the engineering crew what’s gonna happen, so…

190 00:19:48.450 ⇒ 00:19:55.020 Uttam Kumaran: the PMs are the one to keep that standard high. And then…

191 00:19:56.500 ⇒ 00:20:07.279 Uttam Kumaran: I also think, like, we should make a blanket rule, which is, like, every client needs to… like, this is what I used to say, is, like, every client needs a message every day, like…

192 00:20:07.830 ⇒ 00:20:08.160 Justin Breshears: Hmm.

193 00:20:08.160 ⇒ 00:20:11.070 Uttam Kumaran: Like, this… I don’t know how you feel about this, but…

194 00:20:11.240 ⇒ 00:20:28.280 Uttam Kumaran: people are paying us a lot of money, we should find a way to mess… to send them something daily, whether it is a status… AI-generated status update. Like, half the days we’re gonna have updates anyways, but I really want to make it clear that, like, there shouldn’t be 2 or 3 days that go by.

195 00:20:28.420 ⇒ 00:20:32.950 Uttam Kumaran: When clients are paying… thousands of dollars a week. Like, I just don’t…

196 00:20:34.280 ⇒ 00:20:38.319 Uttam Kumaran: And again, maybe that’s just me… that’s just a me weird thing, but…

197 00:20:38.540 ⇒ 00:20:40.580 Uttam Kumaran: I don’t feel like that’s right, you know?

198 00:20:42.500 ⇒ 00:20:43.360 Justin Breshears: Yeah, no, I’m with you.

199 00:20:43.360 ⇒ 00:20:44.450 Uttam Kumaran: Okay.

200 00:20:44.620 ⇒ 00:20:49.500 Justin Breshears: So I added…

201 00:20:50.110 ⇒ 00:20:59.779 Justin Breshears: Know how to properly communicate in a remote async environment. Great microphone camera setup is key. I don’t know how you feel about this, but I’m big on this with clients.

202 00:21:00.390 ⇒ 00:21:01.990 Justin Breshears: Camera on with clients.

203 00:21:02.490 ⇒ 00:21:03.920 Uttam Kumaran: Yes, yep.

204 00:21:03.920 ⇒ 00:21:05.070 Justin Breshears: Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

205 00:21:05.210 ⇒ 00:21:13.769 Uttam Kumaran: This is where, like, I’m actually, like, I would rather you go harder, because this is where I’m not a good role model, because I have to join…

206 00:21:13.980 ⇒ 00:21:17.570 Uttam Kumaran: meetings and do whatever I can just do. Like, sometimes I’m in…

207 00:21:17.920 ⇒ 00:21:23.659 Uttam Kumaran: sometimes I’m, like, in a car somewhere, or I’m… I have to do 10 other things, so I just, like, can’t be…

208 00:21:23.780 ⇒ 00:21:36.879 Uttam Kumaran: on a meeting, but, like, I’m not a good role model, and so I would rather this come from… from your voice, and just be very clear about what the expectations are. People will follow, so I… I would rather think about, like.

209 00:21:37.220 ⇒ 00:21:46.430 Uttam Kumaran: okay, what were some expectations from Kalen or before that they didn’t set, that I wish were set? Because you could always peel that back, but set… but setting it…

210 00:21:46.710 ⇒ 00:21:52.340 Uttam Kumaran: having an expectation that adding more is, you know, is the hardest thing, so I would rather be, like.

211 00:21:53.650 ⇒ 00:22:04.429 Uttam Kumaran: Unless, like, you have some… else has happened, expectation is this. And we actually set it really, really high.

212 00:22:05.040 ⇒ 00:22:11.659 Uttam Kumaran: And, and yeah, like… Back for me, unless it’s literally, like, something exotic, so…

213 00:22:13.030 ⇒ 00:22:13.630 Justin Breshears: Yeah.

214 00:22:14.420 ⇒ 00:22:22.489 Justin Breshears: Alright, well, I’m big on camera-on. I mean, I’m… I’m kind of a camera-on whenever possible, even internally kind of guy, but I understand, like…

215 00:22:22.680 ⇒ 00:22:32.709 Uttam Kumaran: No, I am too. I would be on camera, I have to get ready to go to a thing, but I also know that some people are shy, but again, I don’t have…

216 00:22:33.410 ⇒ 00:22:37.730 Uttam Kumaran: do that for engineers, and I don’t… I don’t… I would…

217 00:22:37.960 ⇒ 00:22:40.419 Uttam Kumaran: Prefer to, I don’t know if I can.

218 00:22:40.880 ⇒ 00:22:47.739 Uttam Kumaran: maybe, like, at some point I will, but… I also have bought all the engineers great ca- everybody has a camera.

219 00:22:48.120 ⇒ 00:22:52.320 Uttam Kumaran: And, for the most part, I’m… I’m on camera as 10.

220 00:22:52.520 ⇒ 00:23:02.750 Justin Breshears: But for project managers, I don’t know, I just think it’s a raw expectation. I don’t think there should be… It’s gotta be, because you can’t build a relationship with a client if they don’t ever see your face.

221 00:23:02.970 ⇒ 00:23:05.720 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think it’s just… But yeah.

222 00:23:06.270 ⇒ 00:23:12.740 Justin Breshears: Yeah, I’m big on that. I was a couple of companies ago, in a company where, like.

223 00:23:12.870 ⇒ 00:23:15.079 Justin Breshears: No one ever turned their camera on.

224 00:23:15.710 ⇒ 00:23:21.529 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, dude, it’s miserable. It’s so miserable. I mean, you should see, you know, I… I used to run our company all…

225 00:23:21.580 ⇒ 00:23:37.280 Uttam Kumaran: And I would be the only one with the camera on, and I would ask, can someone just hang out with me? And then everyone would turn their on. But, like, it’s just not the culture, and it doesn’t matter. Like, we set… we have to set the culture on our teams, and I think managers…

226 00:23:37.570 ⇒ 00:23:39.780 Uttam Kumaran: Need to be the bubbliest.

227 00:23:40.160 ⇒ 00:23:55.939 Uttam Kumaran: And, like, the smile, and get it, like, going, and, like, it… I don’t know, how can you be a project manager without doing… I’m gonna say… it’s like, this is… this is the way we buy. If we were all in a room, it’d be different. It’s not, so we have to overcomplicate, you know?

228 00:23:57.910 ⇒ 00:23:59.659 Justin Breshears: For sure. I’m okay there.

229 00:24:01.030 ⇒ 00:24:06.079 Justin Breshears: Alright, anything else that you…

230 00:24:06.080 ⇒ 00:24:13.240 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I guess we didn’t talk about… I don’t know if we’re gonna talk about it next, but about, like, grooming and planning and retro, and, like, what your expectations are for that.

231 00:24:13.490 ⇒ 00:24:17.990 Justin Breshears: Yeah, we can drill into that if we need to here.

232 00:24:19.600 ⇒ 00:24:20.880 Justin Breshears: Yeah.

233 00:24:21.300 ⇒ 00:24:27.300 Justin Breshears: So this one’s tough, because, like, grooming…

234 00:24:27.490 ⇒ 00:24:30.609 Justin Breshears: Is it gonna happen on a project like…

235 00:24:31.440 ⇒ 00:24:36.680 Justin Breshears: ad hoc type project that often, right? Like, you kinda get the request.

236 00:24:36.940 ⇒ 00:24:43.279 Justin Breshears: Make the ticket, you have all the information right there, and then, like, that’s it, and, like, then you execute the ticket, right?

237 00:24:43.420 ⇒ 00:24:49.439 Justin Breshears: So I’m like, I don’t want to, like, make these rituals mandatory if the project does not…

238 00:24:49.760 ⇒ 00:25:00.539 Justin Breshears: Makes sense for that, but… most projects will require these things, and I’m… I’m mixed on retros, like…

239 00:25:01.170 ⇒ 00:25:06.189 Justin Breshears: I’ve known PMs that just, like, run retros every single sprint, on a weekly basis.

240 00:25:06.830 ⇒ 00:25:11.390 Justin Breshears: And I haven’t seen a ton of value out of that, so I’m like, Typically.

241 00:25:11.740 ⇒ 00:25:21.169 Justin Breshears: Try to do retros on… not a sprint cadence, but, like, more like a monthly cadence, something like that, depending on the length of the project, stuff like that, so…

242 00:25:21.580 ⇒ 00:25:29.819 Justin Breshears: There’s, like, variation depending on project type and complexity, for sure. I think stand-ups are, like, a non-negotiable.

243 00:25:30.980 ⇒ 00:25:32.190 Justin Breshears: Because…

244 00:25:33.290 ⇒ 00:25:40.449 Justin Breshears: that… that, like, stand up surface, like, all the issues, and help… that’s what helps me keep track of everything, and…

245 00:25:40.610 ⇒ 00:25:44.630 Justin Breshears: all that. So, I think stand-ups are, like, mandatory.

246 00:25:44.630 ⇒ 00:25:45.350 Uttam Kumaran: Okay.

247 00:25:45.580 ⇒ 00:25:48.529 Justin Breshears: I think planning is mandatory.

248 00:25:49.010 ⇒ 00:25:53.539 Justin Breshears: But planning, depending on the complexity of the project, can happen in, like, a stand-up.

249 00:25:54.220 ⇒ 00:25:55.819 Justin Breshears: So, like, some projects, like.

250 00:25:56.370 ⇒ 00:26:10.790 Justin Breshears: take Interlude, for example. I don’t think we need a separate planning meeting for that every week, right? Just kind of, you know, plan ahead, like, what does the week look like? And then, you know, all that can happen, like, in the 15-minute stand-up right now.

251 00:26:11.690 ⇒ 00:26:17.439 Justin Breshears: But it has to happen, just if it’s a separate meeting or not, other than stand-up.

252 00:26:18.280 ⇒ 00:26:20.149 Justin Breshears: Your call on complexity.

253 00:26:20.420 ⇒ 00:26:26.259 Justin Breshears: Sprint reviews with the client, I think, are mandatory. Like, you have to have a weekly checkpoint with the client.

254 00:26:26.260 ⇒ 00:26:27.300 Uttam Kumaran: I agree.

255 00:26:28.210 ⇒ 00:26:33.150 Uttam Kumaran: And I also think you should put guidelines on what happens if it’s rescheduled.

256 00:26:34.030 ⇒ 00:26:40.629 Uttam Kumaran: And maybe I’ll give you what I would do, is you 100% have to basically… I mean, I would vote to…

257 00:26:40.780 ⇒ 00:26:58.850 Uttam Kumaran: send a Loom over, and basically present what you were gonna do, and just send them that, and send a write-up email, and send a Slack. Email and Slack could be the same thing. I think Loom is the way… you know, one of the themes here is, like, I’m like, how do we overcompensate at every step for being remote?

258 00:26:59.230 ⇒ 00:27:01.380 Uttam Kumaran: And missing a meeting weekly, like…

259 00:27:01.890 ⇒ 00:27:03.900 Uttam Kumaran: I think is… is really tough.

260 00:27:04.060 ⇒ 00:27:09.319 Uttam Kumaran: And I think Loom may be a great way to kind of circumvent that a little bit.

261 00:27:09.660 ⇒ 00:27:11.549 Uttam Kumaran: And still get a turd.

262 00:27:13.400 ⇒ 00:27:16.540 Justin Breshears: I love that idea. I’ve actually never thought about that, but that’s great.

263 00:27:17.270 ⇒ 00:27:18.979 Uttam Kumaran: Cause it’ll be… it’ll… you know, it’ll take…

264 00:27:19.200 ⇒ 00:27:21.059 Uttam Kumaran: 4 or 5 minutes, and, like.

265 00:27:21.530 ⇒ 00:27:23.860 Uttam Kumaran: I already had time blocked off anyway.

266 00:27:24.030 ⇒ 00:27:27.979 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, and, and putting your, like, to put, to put, like,

267 00:27:28.300 ⇒ 00:27:35.319 Uttam Kumaran: you know, I feel like I’m one of the busier people, and it’s easy for me to watch a loom if it gets sent over, and…

268 00:27:35.520 ⇒ 00:27:41.699 Uttam Kumaran: I’m already probably messaged you saying I can’t make it. So, like, if I get a loom, I’ll make a comment versus…

269 00:27:42.270 ⇒ 00:27:48.140 Uttam Kumaran: I don’t know, I just feel like having, like, there’s not… I think that’s a really good medium for it.

270 00:27:49.680 ⇒ 00:27:50.560 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.

271 00:27:53.750 ⇒ 00:27:59.490 Uttam Kumaran: And, you know, also, like, that loom can go to, like, more people, like, who maybe didn’t get the meeting.

272 00:27:59.890 ⇒ 00:28:01.340 Uttam Kumaran: Or whatever, so…

273 00:28:03.530 ⇒ 00:28:07.539 Justin Breshears: I love that. Loom is probably a criminally underused.

274 00:28:07.540 ⇒ 00:28:11.110 Uttam Kumaran: Criminally underrated, dude. Oh my gosh, like…

275 00:28:11.640 ⇒ 00:28:15.179 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah. I think that… I mean…

276 00:28:15.920 ⇒ 00:28:22.689 Uttam Kumaran: I feel like a lot of things, if they can’t be answered in Slack, people should try a looming a meeting.

277 00:28:23.390 ⇒ 00:28:26.330 Uttam Kumaran: But…

278 00:28:26.940 ⇒ 00:28:37.230 Uttam Kumaran: you know, we’ll get there, but again, like, I think the way to… for PMs to set the standards on communication… everybody around them will actually start to pull from them, by the way. Like…

279 00:28:37.560 ⇒ 00:28:46.869 Uttam Kumaran: we’ll start to understand how to get organized, how to communicate from the standards that the… so… this will actually help me start to elevate it across the organization, too, so…

280 00:28:51.630 ⇒ 00:28:53.210 Justin Breshears: Yeah, I love that.

281 00:28:53.210 ⇒ 00:28:56.629 Uttam Kumaran: And should we add the monthly… monthly project reviews as well?

282 00:28:57.960 ⇒ 00:28:58.360 Uttam Kumaran: that’s…

283 00:28:58.360 ⇒ 00:29:01.449 Justin Breshears: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So we can go…

284 00:29:01.450 ⇒ 00:29:05.170 Uttam Kumaran: It doesn’t necessarily have to be, like, 100% PM-led.

285 00:29:05.520 ⇒ 00:29:09.709 Uttam Kumaran: But, like, I think the PM should… should do the deck.

286 00:29:10.040 ⇒ 00:29:19.180 Uttam Kumaran: for it. Like, for example, we did a deck for ABC, I got through, like, 3 slides, but I needed something to, like, start to, like, kick off conversations.

287 00:29:19.180 ⇒ 00:29:21.649 Justin Breshears: So that would be my expectation, is, like.

288 00:29:22.230 ⇒ 00:29:28.300 Uttam Kumaran: I don’t… right now, you know, theoretically, it’s, like, distressed or salesperson, but, like.

289 00:29:28.540 ⇒ 00:29:30.870 Uttam Kumaran: Ideally, having them set up with a deck.

290 00:29:31.290 ⇒ 00:29:43.309 Uttam Kumaran: And we know all the projects, so it’s just having some asset that we can use if needed, or add a couple things to, and then it frames the conversation. And then also, again, like, at the end of the project review, we send the deck over.

291 00:29:43.740 ⇒ 00:29:47.920 Uttam Kumaran: Like, we can send… we can send from the meeting, things like that.

292 00:29:48.400 ⇒ 00:29:49.020 Justin Breshears: Yep.

293 00:29:54.320 ⇒ 00:29:58.380 Uttam Kumaran: And then another… point I had is, like, what do you think about

294 00:29:58.500 ⇒ 00:30:02.970 Uttam Kumaran: After every meeting with a client having some type of, like.

295 00:30:03.500 ⇒ 00:30:10.610 Uttam Kumaran: hey, here’s what we discussed. This could maybe be one of the AI Sort of stretch goals, but…

296 00:30:12.380 ⇒ 00:30:13.130 Justin Breshears: I agree.

297 00:30:13.560 ⇒ 00:30:14.110 Justin Breshears: Like…

298 00:30:14.110 ⇒ 00:30:18.969 Uttam Kumaran: I don’t know, so much stuff gets lost, dude, between the meetings.

299 00:30:19.910 ⇒ 00:30:23.610 Uttam Kumaran: And… I think it’s important for us to have a running log.

300 00:30:23.950 ⇒ 00:30:26.849 Uttam Kumaran: one, because I think sometimes people forget.

301 00:30:27.090 ⇒ 00:30:29.970 Uttam Kumaran: get switched to clients, but I don’t know, I just think, like…

302 00:30:31.440 ⇒ 00:30:34.419 Uttam Kumaran: We just don’t get that time with, with, with our clients.

303 00:30:35.960 ⇒ 00:30:47.089 Justin Breshears: Oh, and it helps to have, like, in the Slack channel, like, here are the items that we agreed to on the call, because a lot of people will be like, oh yeah, I’ll get that to you, and then as soon as the call ends, like, it’s gone.

304 00:30:47.370 ⇒ 00:30:51.760 Justin Breshears: out of their heads, so… I’m actually still drafting up a…

305 00:30:52.050 ⇒ 00:30:56.249 Justin Breshears: Hey, hello, and a recap of the meeting today to… to hype.

306 00:30:57.330 ⇒ 00:31:01.300 Justin Breshears: For exactly that purpose, because I’m like, here’s what we agreed to do on this call.

307 00:31:01.810 ⇒ 00:31:02.510 Uttam Kumaran: Great.

308 00:31:02.850 ⇒ 00:31:05.470 Justin Breshears: And yeah, AI can help out with that.

309 00:31:08.490 ⇒ 00:31:11.940 Justin Breshears: I don’t know where we wanna… Include that, maybe.

310 00:31:12.920 ⇒ 00:31:19.130 Uttam Kumaran: And maybe… maybe you can comp… maybe you can hi… maybe you can highlight it in AI? Basically.

311 00:31:19.280 ⇒ 00:31:21.349 Uttam Kumaran: I want this document to be, like.

312 00:31:21.920 ⇒ 00:31:33.480 Uttam Kumaran: what is the best… I mean, maybe we could do right now with just setting the basic standards, but I would like… the way I’m gonna look at this is and say, okay, in… let’s say…

313 00:31:33.600 ⇒ 00:31:37.239 Uttam Kumaran: Justin, I got you the best PMs.

314 00:31:38.200 ⇒ 00:31:39.100 Uttam Kumaran: Right.

315 00:31:39.220 ⇒ 00:31:44.230 Uttam Kumaran: that exists. What else would they do that we’re not requiring?

316 00:31:44.660 ⇒ 00:31:48.039 Justin Breshears: Yeah. And then I’m gonna start to look at that gap and say, okay, like.

317 00:31:48.150 ⇒ 00:31:50.020 Uttam Kumaran: Where does A in here?

318 00:31:50.350 ⇒ 00:31:52.970 Uttam Kumaran: That’s like… so it… we’re…

319 00:31:53.270 ⇒ 00:31:56.589 Uttam Kumaran: Brains right now, so we can continue today on just thinking through.

320 00:31:56.970 ⇒ 00:32:03.180 Justin Breshears: Dude, I think an AI deck builder would be… clutch, because…

321 00:32:03.300 ⇒ 00:32:14.879 Justin Breshears: if I’m just thinking about my clients that I manage and stuff, and like you say, like, having a collateral to share on, like, the monthly project reviews and things like that is great.

322 00:32:15.200 ⇒ 00:32:15.650 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah. I can’t…

323 00:32:15.650 ⇒ 00:32:18.649 Justin Breshears: I’ll tell you how much time I’ve wasted building decks.

324 00:32:19.010 ⇒ 00:32:21.279 Uttam Kumaran: What part of the decks are annoying?

325 00:32:21.920 ⇒ 00:32:38.229 Justin Breshears: A lot of times, it is, like, format, so, like, having a template helps, for sure. But then a lot of it is just, like, editing those templates. Yeah. Then putting, like, the information. So, at Kalen, I had a deck builder.

326 00:32:38.310 ⇒ 00:32:47.569 Justin Breshears: That was still very much a work in progress, so, like, it wasn’t super helpful, but if I ideally had a really solid AI deck builder where I could…

327 00:32:48.940 ⇒ 00:32:50.540 Justin Breshears: Hmm, let’s say…

328 00:32:50.810 ⇒ 00:33:03.020 Justin Breshears: put in this house. So, for example, today on Hype, a deck could have been a very helpful tool, for Hype. We could have taken, like, all of the documentation that we had, and kind of spit out, like, more of a…

329 00:33:03.660 ⇒ 00:33:07.840 Justin Breshears: A professional-looking, like, kind of plan to them.

330 00:33:09.020 ⇒ 00:33:12.119 Justin Breshears: But it just takes a lot of time that, like.

331 00:33:12.120 ⇒ 00:33:12.860 Uttam Kumaran: Yes.

332 00:33:13.150 ⇒ 00:33:17.049 Justin Breshears: I mean, you obviously are a busy person, but, like, me.

333 00:33:17.050 ⇒ 00:33:22.459 Uttam Kumaran: No, no, I mean, dude, I’ve built decks my whole career, I know. The reason why I’m asking you is I just wanted to…

334 00:33:22.760 ⇒ 00:33:23.340 Justin Breshears: Like, I’m thinking…

335 00:33:23.340 ⇒ 00:33:24.180 Uttam Kumaran: You’re… yeah.

336 00:33:24.180 ⇒ 00:33:34.069 Justin Breshears: So, I’m using this as an example, like, I am nowhere near as swamped as you, having come in just, like, brand new to this job, and look at already what my day looks like.

337 00:33:34.070 ⇒ 00:33:34.880 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.

338 00:33:34.880 ⇒ 00:33:41.640 Justin Breshears: And these are two, you know, client meetings right here. So, like, when am I gonna build decks, you know?

339 00:33:41.640 ⇒ 00:33:42.580 Uttam Kumaran: Totally.

340 00:33:42.580 ⇒ 00:33:50.470 Justin Breshears: I don’t like spending that time, so that’s where I think, like, this is where AI can really help me, is what’s this administrative stuff that I…

341 00:33:50.470 ⇒ 00:33:51.350 Uttam Kumaran: Yes.

342 00:33:51.350 ⇒ 00:33:52.839 Justin Breshears: But I just don’t have time to do.

343 00:33:52.840 ⇒ 00:34:03.589 Uttam Kumaran: Well, that’s a good… that’s a helpful… maybe at the bottom, just put a… you could just put a section, because I’ll expand it, but you could say, like, what’s the gap between us and the best PM shop? Like.

344 00:34:03.720 ⇒ 00:34:13.100 Uttam Kumaran: And this is where I want to say, like, let’s say you had 100 people, 100 associates, and 100… like, what could get done? Okay, decks for every client meeting is one. Great.

345 00:34:13.389 ⇒ 00:34:17.080 Uttam Kumaran: Now, I’ll… let me take that, and I have… I have some ideas.

346 00:34:17.370 ⇒ 00:34:34.290 Uttam Kumaran: And I can… I have some stuff that we can prototype, and I can… I can show you. I… I used an AI deck builder, like, two weeks ago, and it worked really great, so I have… and that’s… we’re actually thinking about using them for Interludes, so… it’ll be great, because we were going to do a spike on them anyways, we might as well… we should get something out of that while we do that.

347 00:34:34.290 ⇒ 00:34:38.919 Justin Breshears: If you develop it billable, then you don’t have to have your own costs to develop it for your.

348 00:34:38.920 ⇒ 00:34:40.699 Uttam Kumaran: Yes, yes.

349 00:34:40.699 ⇒ 00:34:42.179 Justin Breshears: You’re right, you’re right.

350 00:34:46.340 ⇒ 00:34:48.679 Uttam Kumaran: Okay, cool.

351 00:34:51.150 ⇒ 00:34:52.399 Justin Breshears: I’ve been fine.

352 00:34:53.170 ⇒ 00:34:54.719 Justin Breshears: One second.

353 00:34:56.080 ⇒ 00:35:00.349 Uttam Kumaran: And then, so, okay, so we do stand-ups, and then how, like, what is the frequency…

354 00:35:01.970 ⇒ 00:35:14.920 Uttam Kumaran: stand-ups, like, what are the week-long sprints? What are the frequencies for planning and grooming? Like, are you still consistently doing them? I guess I have a two-part question. It’s nice, because this is the first time I’ve had, like.

355 00:35:15.360 ⇒ 00:35:21.490 Uttam Kumaran: Nobody else in the company has gone pretty senior in, like, Product or project?

356 00:35:21.630 ⇒ 00:35:25.609 Uttam Kumaran: I’ve… Sort of set most of the guidelines, but of course, we’ve…

357 00:35:26.010 ⇒ 00:35:32.750 Uttam Kumaran: at some point, we were all Kanban, then we were two-week, and then now we’re one week, so it’s actually nice, but how do you…

358 00:35:32.990 ⇒ 00:35:38.130 Uttam Kumaran: how did you got… how were you thinking about doing planning and grooming through weekly cycles? And second.

359 00:35:38.240 ⇒ 00:35:42.310 Uttam Kumaran: One of the big problems we have is just getting ahead on backlog.

360 00:35:42.480 ⇒ 00:35:43.840 Justin Breshears: Yep. And like…

361 00:35:43.840 ⇒ 00:35:50.980 Uttam Kumaran: bus backlog, and getting to the North Star of, like, we have the next… we have at least this cycle and next cycle planned, right? Like…

362 00:35:50.980 ⇒ 00:35:51.990 Justin Breshears: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

363 00:35:51.990 ⇒ 00:35:54.910 Uttam Kumaran: How did you guys achieve that? Did you ever achieve that?

364 00:35:55.230 ⇒ 00:36:06.330 Justin Breshears: Yes, we did. So, project type and complexity is definitely gonna play into that. So, I don’t see… I’m not involved in Eden. Eden might be the closest we have to that, but…

365 00:36:06.990 ⇒ 00:36:26.150 Justin Breshears: like, a lot of our project types are gonna be near impossible to get ahead on a backlog or, like, build out an entire roadmap, right? If iCustomer comes on, that’s when we could probably do it. We could probably build out a whole backlog, like, up front. And I would recommend any chance that we have in a project to build out a roadmap.

366 00:36:26.150 ⇒ 00:36:29.099 Uttam Kumaran: Oh, Remo’s a good example, like, we have a…

367 00:36:29.390 ⇒ 00:36:33.650 Uttam Kumaran: But this is where I would say, like, do you have, like, a sense of, like.

368 00:36:34.290 ⇒ 00:36:41.500 Uttam Kumaran: For me, if we can… if we can guess 60% of the project, we should build… That backlog, right?

369 00:36:41.500 ⇒ 00:36:53.999 Justin Breshears: Yes, yes, because then, what happens is, instead of creating tickets on a weekly basis, you are just reviewing for relevance and accuracy, like, okay, 3…

370 00:36:54.350 ⇒ 00:37:05.299 Justin Breshears: project, is that, you know, sprint that I planned out, you know, at the beginning still relevant and accurate to what is requiring, and the velocity that we’ve been able to accomplish at this point?

371 00:37:05.420 ⇒ 00:37:13.569 Justin Breshears: So that’s more how I used to do it. So, I mean, we would have very well-defined sows, comparatively, and…

372 00:37:13.570 ⇒ 00:37:14.250 Uttam Kumaran: Yes.

373 00:37:14.380 ⇒ 00:37:16.519 Justin Breshears: It’d be like, okay, we have…

374 00:37:17.230 ⇒ 00:37:26.470 Justin Breshears: 6 months for a migration from GCP to AWS. You know, obviously we can, like, build out a pretty robust road.

375 00:37:26.470 ⇒ 00:37:27.640 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, yeah.

376 00:37:27.640 ⇒ 00:37:28.030 Justin Breshears: Oh, jeez.

377 00:37:28.030 ⇒ 00:37:35.250 Uttam Kumaran: For migrations, you know, audit all the assets. Yeah, like, for example, we have some of our scopes.

378 00:37:35.510 ⇒ 00:37:45.990 Uttam Kumaran: are… do have, like, we can build out month-long reusable epics for, like, Snowflake setup, dbt setup, Power BI setup, like…

379 00:37:45.990 ⇒ 00:37:47.449 Justin Breshears: Pieces of the projects, yes.

380 00:37:47.450 ⇒ 00:37:54.709 Uttam Kumaran: pieces of the project, yeah. Like, for example, for Urban Stems, we could have done it, like, on the second renewal, because we scoped out, like.

381 00:37:54.940 ⇒ 00:37:59.370 Uttam Kumaran: most of it, and then I think we actually did ticket it out, but we didn’t groom

382 00:38:00.480 ⇒ 00:38:03.420 Uttam Kumaran: And part of it is timing, you know, so…

383 00:38:04.000 ⇒ 00:38:06.760 Justin Breshears: I got you. Yeah, so,

384 00:38:07.750 ⇒ 00:38:09.099 Justin Breshears: What was I gonna say on that?

385 00:38:09.430 ⇒ 00:38:10.950 Justin Breshears: This escaped me.

386 00:38:12.420 ⇒ 00:38:17.359 Justin Breshears: Dude, by the time I get later in the afternoon, my brain is tired.

387 00:38:17.360 ⇒ 00:38:18.680 Uttam Kumaran: You’re good.

388 00:38:18.680 ⇒ 00:38:21.810 Justin Breshears: Dang it, I was gonna say something.

389 00:38:24.640 ⇒ 00:38:26.030 Justin Breshears: Oh, yeah, okay.

390 00:38:26.270 ⇒ 00:38:39.299 Justin Breshears: So, one of the advantages that we had was the way we structured our projects. So, we would kick off the project, and the kickoff would be more, hey, nice to meet you, this is the delivery team.

391 00:38:39.450 ⇒ 00:38:45.219 Justin Breshears: Here, like, we have an… we’re getting on the same page as far as what the business value and objectives are.

392 00:38:45.770 ⇒ 00:38:53.880 Justin Breshears: We’re getting on the same page of, like, how this project is gonna be run. Here’s our cadence that we’ve already agreed to,

393 00:38:53.880 ⇒ 00:39:06.719 Justin Breshears: you know, here’s, like, the methodology we’re using. This is, like, we’re gonna… we’re committing to give you, like, weekly updates, and a status report, and, you know, we’ve invited you into our backlog, and, like, all this stuff. Okay, so that’s just ground rules.

394 00:39:06.900 ⇒ 00:39:13.770 Justin Breshears: But then after the kickoff, The whole first week was just discovery and design.

395 00:39:13.890 ⇒ 00:39:24.189 Justin Breshears: And so… We would just do in-depth, like, discovery sessions, however many we needed, 2-3 sessions on specific topics.

396 00:39:24.710 ⇒ 00:39:28.290 Justin Breshears: And after that, take that and just build out the backlog.

397 00:39:28.290 ⇒ 00:39:29.010 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.

398 00:39:29.010 ⇒ 00:39:32.340 Justin Breshears: One week after kickoff was the roadmap

399 00:39:32.700 ⇒ 00:39:44.639 Justin Breshears: session, where we will present our roadmap, present our backlog as a plan to the client. That’s the one thing I think we’re missing here in the projects, is the kickoff is very messy.

400 00:39:44.640 ⇒ 00:39:45.680 Uttam Kumaran: Yes.

401 00:39:45.680 ⇒ 00:39:54.459 Justin Breshears: I tried to tackle, like, the handoff process, which I think is working better, like, having the S2D form and the information, extremely helpful.

402 00:39:54.760 ⇒ 00:40:00.190 Justin Breshears: what I think needs to happen at that point, though, is, like, today on Hype.

403 00:40:01.700 ⇒ 00:40:07.980 Justin Breshears: It was kind of, like, awkward at the beginning, where it’s like, they were kind of like, well, what are you gonna show us?

404 00:40:07.980 ⇒ 00:40:08.960 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

405 00:40:08.960 ⇒ 00:40:13.310 Justin Breshears: what do you… where do you want to go? Like, kind of a deal. So there was a feeling-out process there.

406 00:40:13.420 ⇒ 00:40:16.799 Justin Breshears: I feel like if we were to…

407 00:40:16.800 ⇒ 00:40:18.380 Uttam Kumaran: We could have preempted it a bit.

408 00:40:18.380 ⇒ 00:40:34.149 Justin Breshears: Yes, if we were to separate that, where, like, the kickoff is less about, well, what are you actually going to do to us, and more about just setting the stage for the project, and, like, introducing the delivery team, then we’d get a better sense of, like, okay, well, like, here’s where the discovery session should focus, you know.

409 00:40:34.150 ⇒ 00:40:34.650 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.

410 00:40:34.650 ⇒ 00:40:40.490 Justin Breshears: So, like, out of today’s call, I would have been like, okay, Discovery Session 1 is about healthy.

411 00:40:40.590 ⇒ 00:40:47.030 Justin Breshears: and the new patient intake SOP, which is what I was trying to get at at the beginning, but it was too premature.

412 00:40:47.030 ⇒ 00:40:52.160 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, yeah, yeah, and I also think, like, it’s some… it’s also trying to understand

413 00:40:54.600 ⇒ 00:41:03.400 Uttam Kumaran: even how Audrey works, and, like, who the players are, you know, and part of it, it was like, I’m like, okay, he’s scattered.

414 00:41:03.630 ⇒ 00:41:07.190 Uttam Kumaran: It’s clear that, like, Maybe…

415 00:41:10.380 ⇒ 00:41:12.089 Justin Breshears: I lost you. I don’t know.

416 00:41:12.090 ⇒ 00:41:17.159 Uttam Kumaran: have, I’m like, okay, let me, you know… So, yeah, I get where you’re coming from now.

417 00:41:17.440 ⇒ 00:41:35.850 Justin Breshears: Yeah, yeah. And so that’s… that’s where, like, the kickoff is really just, like, a… well, what I would even do as a… an aside from that is I would identify the right point of contact from the client that would be, like, the scheduler, like, my counterpart on the other side. I would set up a pre-kickoff call with them.

418 00:41:35.990 ⇒ 00:41:46.900 Justin Breshears: schedule everything out, and just, like, get to know them a little bit, and then go into the kickoff, so I’m like, I’m not totally blind on them. Then the kickoff would be, like, you know.

419 00:41:47.550 ⇒ 00:41:52.079 Justin Breshears: set the stage, and then, like, you’re off and running in the weeds after that. So…

420 00:41:52.750 ⇒ 00:41:56.709 Uttam Kumaran: And then, I… did you guys ever do…

421 00:41:58.070 ⇒ 00:42:00.910 Uttam Kumaran: Like, anything less than 3 months.

422 00:42:01.530 ⇒ 00:42:04.359 Justin Breshears: Yes, all the time. Two weeks was, like, our shortest.

423 00:42:04.760 ⇒ 00:42:09.209 Uttam Kumaran: Wow, but then what was… how did you even do any of… how did you do any of the rituals?

424 00:42:09.450 ⇒ 00:42:22.909 Justin Breshears: So, the two-week ones are a little bit more lax, because those were very templatized. Those would be, like, setting up an AWS control tower, like… Okay, okay, okay. And it’s just, like, two weeks, boom.

425 00:42:22.910 ⇒ 00:42:27.309 Uttam Kumaran: Talk to me about, like, any of the short ones where it wasn’t, like.

426 00:42:28.130 ⇒ 00:42:32.140 Uttam Kumaran: like, any short, tough ones, I guess, is more of what I’m trying to get at.

427 00:42:32.140 ⇒ 00:42:34.320 Justin Breshears: Yeah, so we would have ones that, like.

428 00:42:34.510 ⇒ 00:42:41.680 Justin Breshears: One of the last projects that I did there, it was…

429 00:42:41.800 ⇒ 00:42:44.210 Justin Breshears: Only, what was it, 6 weeks?

430 00:42:44.730 ⇒ 00:42:49.620 Justin Breshears: 6 weeks, and it was about, security compliance.

431 00:42:49.860 ⇒ 00:42:55.699 Justin Breshears: So it was, like, setting up their AWS environment to be compliant with,

432 00:42:56.460 ⇒ 00:43:08.129 Justin Breshears: FTR requirements for AWS, basically. Foundational technical review requirements that they had. Anyway, they needed to migrate users over to roles and, like, do this other stuff.

433 00:43:08.220 ⇒ 00:43:22.740 Justin Breshears: And so, that one was, like, hard deadline, September 30th, hard deadline, you know, needed to get that done, because that’s when their FCR review was. 6 weeks to get it done,

434 00:43:23.750 ⇒ 00:43:37.359 Justin Breshears: And, like, very, like, highly collaborative with the client. Like, we had to basically get integrated into their systems, you know, find out, like, kind of how they were using these users in their, you know.

435 00:43:37.810 ⇒ 00:43:39.190 Uttam Kumaran: A lot of discovery.

436 00:43:39.640 ⇒ 00:43:42.619 Justin Breshears: Yeah, a lot of discovery, a lot of that. So…

437 00:43:42.620 ⇒ 00:44:00.129 Justin Breshears: it really wasn’t, like, typical playbook. It was more, like, we’re meeting with the client almost daily, like, in working sessions. Like, we’re meeting with the SMEs over there. So a lot of times, like, I wasn’t even involved in those sessions. A lot of times, it was just the architects and the engineers, you know, getting together and stuff like that.

438 00:44:00.520 ⇒ 00:44:09.590 Justin Breshears: I think in those cases, like, hard deadline, like, stressful, like, up against the gun, and, like, requiring a lot of, like, collaboration.

439 00:44:10.570 ⇒ 00:44:14.779 Justin Breshears: I think I ratcheted up the rituals even more. So, like.

440 00:44:15.350 ⇒ 00:44:30.299 Justin Breshears: on an easier, like, more chill project, even on a short timeline, like, I’d be cool just running the rituals as is, but, like, when it was, you know, a fast-paced, like, heavy hit, but, like, month-long or six-week-long project, like.

441 00:44:30.600 ⇒ 00:44:32.399 Justin Breshears: I mean, I would almost be, like.

442 00:44:33.170 ⇒ 00:44:39.200 Justin Breshears: Requiring more touchpoints with the client, and more, like, checking, because you just don’t have the time to waste.

443 00:44:39.360 ⇒ 00:44:48.119 Justin Breshears: You can’t… you can’t, like, let a problem fester for 2 days, because that’s a greater proportion of that project than 2 days out of a 6-month project.

444 00:44:49.570 ⇒ 00:44:54.119 Justin Breshears: Does that make sense? So, like, it sounds like, oh, how did you have time for the rituals? Well, actually.

445 00:44:54.120 ⇒ 00:44:54.900 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

446 00:44:54.900 ⇒ 00:44:57.289 Justin Breshears: More rituals in those.

447 00:44:58.590 ⇒ 00:45:04.000 Justin Breshears: they were just maybe a little bit less formal, because we were constantly meeting. For, like, my Sprint reviews with that client…

448 00:45:04.000 ⇒ 00:45:05.849 Uttam Kumaran: Some of this where… where…

449 00:45:07.580 ⇒ 00:45:11.350 Justin Breshears: Sorry, I don’t know if you were talking, but your headset’s kind of cutting out or something.

450 00:45:14.310 ⇒ 00:45:15.220 Justin Breshears: Hello?

451 00:45:23.960 ⇒ 00:45:24.930 Justin Breshears: Hello?

452 00:45:27.630 ⇒ 00:45:30.879 Justin Breshears: Something going on? Maybe if I stop my video, it’ll help?

453 00:46:20.570 ⇒ 00:46:24.920 19257868273: Hey, sorry, I’m just driving on MLK, and signal always drops, so I’m back.

454 00:46:24.920 ⇒ 00:46:26.269 Justin Breshears: Oh, you’re good, I was like…

455 00:46:26.540 ⇒ 00:46:30.249 Justin Breshears: you’re… you were cutting in and out, so I missed a lot of what you were saying before, so…

456 00:46:30.250 ⇒ 00:46:33.830 19257868273: No, yeah, one of the… what about the,

457 00:46:33.950 ⇒ 00:46:48.489 19257868273: if I was something I say it on, this is something that I would love to do two things. One, I actually want to use as part of our sales assets to share, like, how thorough we are. I mean, we do a little bit of this where I share, like, yeah, we run typical Agile.

458 00:46:48.620 ⇒ 00:46:49.630 19257868273: We…

459 00:46:49.780 ⇒ 00:46:54.449 19257868273: like, we make sure that you guys have communication, we do everything Slack, but I actually think it’s helpful

460 00:46:54.550 ⇒ 00:46:58.279 19257868273: Especially for clients that I know are going to be

461 00:46:58.630 ⇒ 00:47:10.219 19257868273: more discovery than not, like, where I don’t know everything when we sell. I want to make it very clear to them, like, what… basically, I want to kind of look at, like, what’s the first week

462 00:47:10.760 ⇒ 00:47:22.949 19257868273: like, what are the next 4 weeks gonna look like? And I want to spell that out, even if it’s just, like, meeting schedule and stuff, and I want to give that to them in advance. That’s actually… we’re able to differentiate that way if we do that.

463 00:47:22.950 ⇒ 00:47:27.909 Justin Breshears: Yes, and you need… you need to set hard kickoffs, and you need to be like.

464 00:47:28.670 ⇒ 00:47:41.510 Justin Breshears: So, hey, like, you’ve closed a deal, right? We can kick off in a week. In that… in the meantime, like, between now and, like, kickoff, we will put together our plan of attack for your project.

465 00:47:41.650 ⇒ 00:47:42.750 Justin Breshears: or opposite.

466 00:47:42.750 ⇒ 00:47:43.260 19257868273: I think it’s.

467 00:47:43.260 ⇒ 00:47:54.020 Justin Breshears: very ambiguous, and you need a lot of discovery, you can be like, hey, let’s do a kickoff call now, but know that the first week is going to be all discovery, and then we will present a roadmap to you.

468 00:47:54.560 ⇒ 00:47:56.870 19257868273: Sorry, we don’t do that at all, like, we…

469 00:47:56.870 ⇒ 00:47:57.470 Justin Breshears: Oh.

470 00:47:57.470 ⇒ 00:48:01.929 19257868273: Meaning, like, I… meaning, like, we don’t say it one way or another.

471 00:48:02.260 ⇒ 00:48:08.359 19257868273: Like, sometimes it’s… it’s understood it’s gonna be a lot of discovery, sometimes it’s…

472 00:48:08.940 ⇒ 00:48:18.239 19257868273: like, okay, what’s first? And I think we can preempt, like, tons of that. Yeah. Basically, I can templatize, like, a blurb and be like, this is, like, how this project is gonna go.

473 00:48:19.620 ⇒ 00:48:31.200 Justin Breshears: And feel free to bring me in at that point, like, if you’re in the sales cycle, and you’re, like, kind of at the signing stage, or whatever, bring me in, and I can come in and be like.

474 00:48:31.890 ⇒ 00:48:36.549 Justin Breshears: Okay, like, this is pretty well defined, like, we can take this…

475 00:48:36.690 ⇒ 00:48:49.980 Justin Breshears: scope, and we can build out a roadmap, and then we’ll schedule kickoff, like, when we’ll have a roadmap ready for you to present, like… or I can take a look at it and be like, oh, okay, like, in the case of Hype,

476 00:48:50.530 ⇒ 00:48:58.809 Justin Breshears: we’re gonna need a lot of discovery sessions, so instead of, like, a kickoff where they’re expecting, like, Audrey came on expecting us to, like, kind of tell her what to do, we make it very clear, like.

477 00:48:59.010 ⇒ 00:49:01.400 Justin Breshears: We’re scheduling discovery sessions, like.

478 00:49:01.990 ⇒ 00:49:07.010 Justin Breshears: So we can learn about your systems, right? And then present an idea of what to do.

479 00:49:08.280 ⇒ 00:49:09.330 19257868273: Yeah, okay, okay.

480 00:49:09.330 ⇒ 00:49:13.890 Justin Breshears: It’s client expectation management, is all it is. It’s expectations, yeah, yeah.

481 00:49:14.570 ⇒ 00:49:21.699 Justin Breshears: And so I think the kickoff process needs to be a little bit more defined for us. It’s gonna set us up for success better, because

482 00:49:21.940 ⇒ 00:49:30.120 Justin Breshears: Yeah, I was like, I don’t know what to expect today on this call, and, like, I feared that they expected, like, actual deliverables or insight.

483 00:49:30.120 ⇒ 00:49:30.850 19257868273: Yeah.

484 00:49:30.850 ⇒ 00:49:32.939 Justin Breshears: And I’m like, we don’t… we’re not prepared for that.

485 00:49:34.240 ⇒ 00:49:39.250 19257868273: Yeah, and I think as soon as we do the S2D, I think we should move

486 00:49:40.040 ⇒ 00:49:48.829 19257868273: At some point, we need to move into something that we can share with the client, like, what their first month or whatever’s gonna look like with us, in terms of the scheduling.

487 00:49:50.730 ⇒ 00:49:51.090 Justin Breshears: Yes.

488 00:49:51.090 ⇒ 00:49:54.519 19257868273: And again, we don’t even… it doesn’t have to be perfect, but I at least want to say, like.

489 00:49:54.700 ⇒ 00:50:06.009 19257868273: hey, we’re guaranteed, like, this is, like, how we operate. We have daily internal stand-ups against your project. We then are guaranteed to meet with you at least once.

490 00:50:06.250 ⇒ 00:50:13.899 19257868273: weekly, and if you can’t be there, then we will send you a loom with what we need, and, like, what the progress is. We also…

491 00:50:14.240 ⇒ 00:50:23.209 19257868273: We also do schedule a monthly project review, which is… the reason we’re doing that, is because here’s the difference of that between our weekly stuff.

492 00:50:23.650 ⇒ 00:50:30.610 19257868273: Yeah. And then I want to clearly outline our time… this is our… these are our contract dates, and this is what…

493 00:50:30.790 ⇒ 00:50:40.230 19257868273: like, in the first two weeks, because this is a discovery-heavy project, we do this, or this is actually pretty well-defined, this is, like, what you can expect in the… between the first

494 00:50:40.750 ⇒ 00:50:42.580 19257868273: Like, yeah, whatever. So, okay.

495 00:50:42.580 ⇒ 00:50:50.140 Justin Breshears: We probably need a Figma, like, workflow for this, and we call it the Brainforge way, or the Brainforge methodology.

496 00:50:50.140 ⇒ 00:50:50.870 19257868273: Yeah.

497 00:50:51.990 ⇒ 00:50:57.199 19257868273: Well, this also be something that the project manager sends, and that’s the way they introduce yourself.

498 00:50:57.360 ⇒ 00:50:58.489 19257868273: You know, it’s like…

499 00:50:58.490 ⇒ 00:50:58.940 Justin Breshears: Yeah.

500 00:50:58.940 ⇒ 00:51:00.630 19257868273: They send this out…

501 00:51:01.280 ⇒ 00:51:09.990 19257868273: It could either be the… yeah, and they send out, hey, this is how… like, this is how it’s gonna work out for you, here’s how we’re gonna carry y’all around… along the path.

502 00:51:10.110 ⇒ 00:51:14.090 19257868273: And then… That’s a great way to intro

503 00:51:14.340 ⇒ 00:51:19.630 19257868273: And then what I’ll do is I’ll take a mini version of that and put it into all of our sales stuff.

504 00:51:19.830 ⇒ 00:51:27.839 19257868273: So that when I’m selling, I almost… like, because these days, we’re trying to sell in a way where it’s like, great, here’s everything, like, let us know when you want to kick off.

505 00:51:28.130 ⇒ 00:51:39.630 19257868273: And then I want to add to that, be like, here’s everything, like, here’s what your first weeks… here’s, like, what your first few weeks are gonna look like with us. You almost make it… you just want to make it, like, so there’s… they just, like…

506 00:51:39.840 ⇒ 00:51:51.689 19257868273: they need, like, they see, like, oh my gosh, these guys have everything buttoned up, and for, like, that price, we should rip it, you know? Versus, I don’t think we do a good job advertising how much effort we put into these projects.

507 00:51:52.110 ⇒ 00:51:52.730 Justin Breshears: No.

508 00:51:53.400 ⇒ 00:51:59.650 Justin Breshears: Yep, this is a… this is 100% a necessity in my mind. Like, we need to build this out like yesterday.

509 00:51:59.760 ⇒ 00:52:05.530 Justin Breshears: And we need a… kickoff deck. A formalized kickoff deck.

510 00:52:05.900 ⇒ 00:52:13.250 Justin Breshears: And it just… it sets the stage for how everything’s gonna run, and it’s gonna have this methodology in it, reiterated again.

511 00:52:13.270 ⇒ 00:52:31.409 Justin Breshears: But the kickoff deck is… it can be as simple to start as an intro slide, a high-level business objective slide, here’s what we understand, like, we’re delivering for you, here’s the way that we’re gonna deliver it, our brain forge way, or whatever. Do you have any questions? Or here’s the term…

512 00:52:31.410 ⇒ 00:52:33.920 19257868273: Like, 5 slides, or, like, how many slides?

513 00:52:33.920 ⇒ 00:52:41.970 Justin Breshears: Yeah, like, it can start as that. I mean, we used to have kickoff texts that would get into scope and get into, like, specifics, but…

514 00:52:42.110 ⇒ 00:52:49.850 Justin Breshears: It can start with that, so, like, yeah, let’s think… Intro’s one, business objectives two,

515 00:52:49.960 ⇒ 00:52:58.359 Justin Breshears: 3 would be Brain Forge Way, 4 contract terms, and then… yeah, like a…

516 00:52:58.930 ⇒ 00:53:02.190 Justin Breshears: Thank you, Q&A slide at the end, that’s 5 slides.

517 00:53:02.190 ⇒ 00:53:02.800 19257868273: Okay.

518 00:53:02.990 ⇒ 00:53:04.110 19257868273: Okay, great.

519 00:53:05.650 ⇒ 00:53:19.360 19257868273: And then I’ll… I mean, I’ll… we’ll shove a bunch of stuff in the appendix for you that we already have built. And then, yeah, okay, let’s do that. I mean, I’ll send that… I’ll just take that soundbite from the transcript, then I’ll get Hannah to work on something that we can…

520 00:53:19.680 ⇒ 00:53:21.760 19257868273: Perfect. And then start, start using.

521 00:53:22.610 ⇒ 00:53:29.349 Justin Breshears: Yeah, I think that would be good, and when we get this, like, it’s gonna… speaking to professionalism, like, this is…

522 00:53:29.480 ⇒ 00:53:32.209 Justin Breshears: This is gonna make us seem super legit.

523 00:53:32.990 ⇒ 00:53:36.750 19257868273: Totally, totally. I mean, I, look, I want us to seem like

524 00:53:37.370 ⇒ 00:53:42.550 19257868273: We’re billing 250, and then we have so much stuff that it’ll be easy to bill $350, you know, and…

525 00:53:42.680 ⇒ 00:53:44.580 19257868273: And that’s… that’s what it’ll…

526 00:53:45.030 ⇒ 00:53:52.799 19257868273: That’s what it’ll feel like. I also want to set our PMs up, like, I want them to have clear, like, when you do a kickoff, here’s the way you do it, here’s the decks you should use.

527 00:53:53.000 ⇒ 00:53:54.020 Justin Breshears: Yeah, absolutely.

528 00:53:54.020 ⇒ 00:53:58.080 19257868273: When you do a monthly business review, here’s kind of the decks you should use, things like that.

529 00:53:58.080 ⇒ 00:53:58.810 Justin Breshears: Exactly.

530 00:53:58.810 ⇒ 00:53:59.520 19257868273: Totally capable.

531 00:53:59.520 ⇒ 00:54:04.109 Justin Breshears: It becomes a playbook that’s repeatable, and, like, it doesn’t…

532 00:54:04.290 ⇒ 00:54:09.370 Justin Breshears: It avoids situations like today, where, like, We just, like, had.

533 00:54:09.370 ⇒ 00:54:15.829 19257868273: No, like, nobody’s super aware, yeah. I mean, this is, again, it’s just, like, us on the sales side, we had no…

534 00:54:16.140 ⇒ 00:54:21.810 19257868273: We just, like, didn’t know what the expectation was by… because of delivery, because we were also delivery.

535 00:54:21.810 ⇒ 00:54:29.709 Justin Breshears: Yeah. So, it’s like, it doesn’t matter. And the good news is, like, y’all are so skilled at this stuff that you can just off the cuff it.

536 00:54:29.710 ⇒ 00:54:30.240 19257868273: Yeah, we…

537 00:54:30.240 ⇒ 00:54:30.720 Justin Breshears: Don’t.

538 00:54:30.720 ⇒ 00:54:34.380 19257868273: Yeah, that’s why I was like, yo, I don’t really know what this is, and then…

539 00:54:34.380 ⇒ 00:54:34.830 Justin Breshears: Yeah.

540 00:54:34.830 ⇒ 00:54:36.379 19257868273: I was like, alright, I should probably…

541 00:54:36.600 ⇒ 00:54:39.809 19257868273: Talk more right now, and then just let me suck it out.

542 00:54:39.810 ⇒ 00:54:47.469 Justin Breshears: Yeah, no, you were clutch on there. I would have sputtered without you on that call, so… and that’s, like.

543 00:54:48.000 ⇒ 00:54:55.950 Justin Breshears: I mean, that’s what we’re gonna expect, right? We can’t expect any of our PMs to be, like, highly technical in this stuff, otherwise they’re gonna be strategists. And those people.

544 00:54:55.950 ⇒ 00:54:56.790 19257868273: Yeah, yeah.

545 00:54:56.790 ⇒ 00:55:04.519 Justin Breshears: You’d expect to be able to do what you did today, but like, you know, we can’t expect our PMs to be able to handle that, so…

546 00:55:04.840 ⇒ 00:55:05.649 19257868273: Yeah, okay.

547 00:55:05.650 ⇒ 00:55:14.800 Justin Breshears: We gotta… we gotta have repeatable playbooks like this that, you know, we can walk them through process, because I feel like an Amber and a Rico are really good at following a process.

548 00:55:14.800 ⇒ 00:55:16.739 19257868273: They are very good at that, yes.

549 00:55:16.740 ⇒ 00:55:18.769 Justin Breshears: Once we define it, you know?

550 00:55:18.770 ⇒ 00:55:20.809 19257868273: Yes, correct, correct, correct, correct.

551 00:55:21.200 ⇒ 00:55:39.449 Justin Breshears: So anyway, yeah, that’s where, like, this is… this is, again, to my point the other day about, like, the project lifecycle and documenting it. This is the kind of thing that I’m talking about, because once we can document well the entire project lifecycle and figure out what’s the best way for Brainforge to work through a project, then, yeah, then it’s just a plug and play.

552 00:55:40.090 ⇒ 00:55:40.650 19257868273: Yeah.

553 00:55:41.940 ⇒ 00:55:43.230 19257868273: Okay, great.

554 00:55:46.290 ⇒ 00:55:49.659 Justin Breshears: So, anything else on that?

555 00:55:50.150 ⇒ 00:55:56.199 Justin Breshears: standards doc. I can send it to you and Alex for further review before we, like, roll it out.

556 00:55:56.920 ⇒ 00:55:59.800 19257868273: Yeah, let’s… just send it to us, and then let’s…

557 00:55:59.910 ⇒ 00:56:05.599 19257868273: see how much of it we can confirm. I want to just call out, like, if there are missing pieces, like.

558 00:56:05.770 ⇒ 00:56:16.930 19257868273: any of the decks, but we, you know, we do have… I think another thing that would be helpful is the link in Notion under each of those, like, the rituals, like, the SOP for a ritual, like.

559 00:56:17.180 ⇒ 00:56:17.640 Justin Breshears: Yes.

560 00:56:17.640 ⇒ 00:56:24.360 19257868273: like, ticket creation, right? So I want to get very nitty-gritty, and even if it’s like, you’re also responsible for, like.

561 00:56:24.770 ⇒ 00:56:31.430 19257868273: Creating tickets in the backlog, meeting with your technical counterpart to groom them.

562 00:56:31.590 ⇒ 00:56:37.990 19257868273: Yes. Or, like, booking the calls with your thing for planning, you’re also required to, like.

563 00:56:38.460 ⇒ 00:56:45.940 19257868273: if there are… if there… if something is blocked… if something’s blocked, like, here’s kind of, like… I almost want to spell it out really obnoxiously.

564 00:56:45.950 ⇒ 00:56:46.970 Justin Breshears: So that, like.

565 00:56:47.190 ⇒ 00:57:02.430 19257868273: it’s written, and then even for things that are, like, this something is waiting on client review, okay, like, how do you get something in front of a client? What do you do if a client’s not responding? Like, what are… what are sort of ways to get around that? You know, additionally,

566 00:57:02.960 ⇒ 00:57:06.389 19257868273: you know, I think additionally, it’s like, it’s thinking through,

567 00:57:07.890 ⇒ 00:57:25.110 19257868273: I know we don’t do a lot of retros, but I also do think that retros can be a very effective tool that can be underutilized, like, just like I think we do a lot of self-reflection, I think teams should do quite a bit of that. And so, I think both of them have done retros before, but I do think that

568 00:57:25.200 ⇒ 00:57:29.050 19257868273: They don’t need to do the full thing, like, even just going to someone asking for feedback.

569 00:57:29.660 ⇒ 00:57:33.799 19257868273: In the middle of a project is a good way to find opportunities for adjustment.

570 00:57:34.000 ⇒ 00:57:39.379 19257868273: So… you know, I think that’s… that’s also one thing.

571 00:57:40.370 ⇒ 00:57:43.029 Justin Breshears: And then, yeah, I think, I think overall.

572 00:57:44.480 ⇒ 00:57:59.180 19257868273: I’m gonna start to… I mean, I’m gonna work with… I’m gonna work with ChatGBT on this for sure, but also it would be helpful if you were to think through, like, hey, if I did get you… if I got you, like, the best PMs ever, what on this list

573 00:57:59.280 ⇒ 00:58:15.280 19257868273: like, would they take to the tent, and like, what are the… what would those be, you know? That way I can start thinking about, okay, like, what AI things can I automate for the crew? I think, you know, to give you a couple examples, one is,

574 00:58:15.770 ⇒ 00:58:18.449 19257868273: one is certainly…

575 00:58:18.760 ⇒ 00:58:35.530 19257868273: what do you call it? Grooming. So, I’m gonna… we already have this build, I just need to roll it out, but it’s gonna be, like, a little bit of a grooming, bot, where it will… anything you move into active, it’s gonna review, and then tell you in the comments on your ticket, whether it’s groomed to our…

576 00:58:35.670 ⇒ 00:58:43.770 19257868273: ticket standards. Additionally, if you make a ticket, you can tag the grooming bot And then it’ll tell you

577 00:58:44.310 ⇒ 00:58:45.720 19257868273: Is this groomed enough?

578 00:58:46.610 ⇒ 00:58:47.389 19257868273: We have, like.

579 00:58:47.390 ⇒ 00:58:53.690 Justin Breshears: of, like, we don’t need some third-party plugin to tell us required fields, we just use that on every ticket.

580 00:58:53.690 ⇒ 00:59:02.340 19257868273: Yeah, yeah, yeah, so that’s, like, so that’s kind of, like, I was like, okay, what is the… yeah, so exactly that. So, but I’m not gonna make it, like, a blocking step yet, meaning…

581 00:59:02.460 ⇒ 00:59:06.019 Justin Breshears: Right. You know, sometimes we create tickets on the fly and I’ll go, but at some point.

582 00:59:06.020 ⇒ 00:59:14.560 19257868273: In our… in our life, we will make that, like, tickets cannot get into here without being groomed. And… so that’ll be one thing where…

583 00:59:14.840 ⇒ 00:59:18.060 19257868273: This ticket agent basically will look at your ticket.

584 00:59:18.330 ⇒ 00:59:31.110 19257868273: If it’s… if you… if you ask it, it’ll groom it, and then mark your thing as it needs grooming, or ready for planning, or groomed. And then that way, at any moment, you can also look at linear, and…

585 00:59:31.560 ⇒ 00:59:36.020 19257868273: Tag any amount of things as, like, for grooming, for grooming check.

586 00:59:36.230 ⇒ 00:59:42.700 19257868273: And… or you can look through everything that needs proofing that’s inactive, and then basically that’s the way for us to understand, like, okay, like.

587 00:59:42.940 ⇒ 00:59:48.619 19257868273: one of the AI team’s OKRs is make… or one of the delivery team OKRs is 90% of tickets that are active, right, or something.

588 00:59:48.620 ⇒ 00:59:50.050 Justin Breshears: Yeah, I was about to say, can we aggregate

589 00:59:50.460 ⇒ 00:59:54.760 Justin Breshears: Then, where it’s not just looking at an individual ticket, you know, when you tag it, but…

590 00:59:55.010 ⇒ 01:00:00.390 Justin Breshears: Hey, let’s get a reporting where it’s like, okay, 90% of tickets are in our standards or not.

591 01:00:01.130 ⇒ 01:00:10.970 19257868273: Yeah, so that’s exactly, like, what I want to accomplish, but that’s also, again, like, look, think about you having to go review the ticket to make sure it’s groomed, or for every individual person to

592 01:00:11.520 ⇒ 01:00:18.649 19257868273: remember the standards, like, we offload that to the AI, that is sort of pretty, pretty objective, so…

593 01:00:18.860 ⇒ 01:00:19.420 Justin Breshears: And eventually.

594 01:00:19.420 ⇒ 01:00:20.950 19257868273: I think that’s one… yeah.

595 01:00:20.950 ⇒ 01:00:40.650 Justin Breshears: like we’ve talked about, that I would like for, like, the Monday meeting, is I want a dashboard that gives me all this information that I can just pull up on the Monday meeting and be like, okay, here’s where we’re at with our OKRs. We’re lagging behind on our grooming, you know, OKR, you know, we… we’re not hitting our margins or whatever, and it’s just all right there in a dashboard.

596 01:00:41.390 ⇒ 01:00:46.470 19257868273: Yeah, you know, I also think about, you know, once you have these meetings, standards.

597 01:00:46.670 ⇒ 01:00:57.129 19257868273: you can then check, did these happen across all of our clients? Like, on X client, how many stand-ups were there today? Was there a project kickoff last month? Was there… was there a…

598 01:00:57.330 ⇒ 01:01:06.289 19257868273: Was there, like, a project review last month? How many kickoffs are coming? Like, those are the things I want to give you, as a delivery leader, like, observability into.

599 01:01:06.290 ⇒ 01:01:06.900 Justin Breshears: Yes.

600 01:01:06.900 ⇒ 01:01:16.109 19257868273: Because that’s gonna be how you… that I hope you judge the PMs buys, like, that gets into more objective, okay, you missed these, like, you’re not running… or, again, at the end of the week.

601 01:01:16.160 ⇒ 01:01:28.340 19257868273: start on Monday, we look, did every client… for example, one basic thing is, I’m like, did we run the rituals for every client last week? Yeah. Because for now, for… right now, we just decided what they are, so next week, that’ll be my question, like…

602 01:01:28.760 ⇒ 01:01:36.870 19257868273: Did you… did we do that? The next week, it’ll be like, okay, the dashboard shows clearly what did happen versus what didn’t happen, because all the meetings are recorded, so…

603 01:01:36.870 ⇒ 01:01:37.470 Justin Breshears: I agree.

604 01:01:37.470 ⇒ 01:01:40.369 19257868273: That’s sort of the level I kind of want this to get to.

605 01:01:40.370 ⇒ 01:01:59.099 Justin Breshears: I’m right there with you, and I want to run it based on setting the expectation and the standard, like we’re doing right now, coming up with the standard, and then it’s just a matter of, like, having the data to report on it. That’s why when we went through the OKRs the other day, I was, like, probably being annoying, but I was like.

606 01:01:59.140 ⇒ 01:02:07.339 Justin Breshears: how are we gonna measure that one, you know? That’s the biggest thing for me, is like, I don’t want to set a standard that I can’t actually hold somebody to with a measurement, you know?

607 01:02:07.790 ⇒ 01:02:12.830 19257868273: Yeah. The last place, I think, you know, this is probably the edge of what I’ve thought about.

608 01:02:13.010 ⇒ 01:02:17.539 19257868273: is, actually having an AI look through

609 01:02:17.870 ⇒ 01:02:27.460 19257868273: like, basically walk through the transcript, but I guess you could also look through the audio and the video, and give you a determination on whether that was a properly run stand-up or not.

610 01:02:27.920 ⇒ 01:02:38.810 19257868273: And that way, you’re not only caring, did it get run, but you’re caring about the quality. And so, as a delivery leader, I want to be able to deliver to you all of the poorly run

611 01:02:38.980 ⇒ 01:02:44.589 19257868273: Rituals for you to go review game tape on, or do, or give feedback on.

612 01:02:44.810 ⇒ 01:02:51.330 19257868273: And, like, that is… that is kind of, like, the extent of which I’ve thought about this sort of, like, problem, so…

613 01:02:51.330 ⇒ 01:02:51.830 Justin Breshears: Yeah.

614 01:02:51.830 ⇒ 01:02:56.900 19257868273: But again, like, you don’t know… even if someone could just check a box and do the stand-up and do the things, you don’t know if they’re shitty.

615 01:02:57.130 ⇒ 01:03:15.260 19257868273: You know, and that’s, like, kind of what I want. And then I also want to give you, like, look, in sales, sort of, like, game tape review is a big thing, where they, they, they review your calls, like, okay, and they basically dissect, did you do, did you spend the first 5 minutes, like.

616 01:03:15.820 ⇒ 01:03:21.919 19257868273: smoothing, did you then go through this? Did you go… they do this very rigorously, like, it’s very,

617 01:03:22.250 ⇒ 01:03:30.140 19257868273: disciplined, and it’s very, like, just follow the sales playbook. We don’t do that in other parts of business, and it’s kind of odd to me when

618 01:03:30.310 ⇒ 01:03:35.170 19257868273: we record everything that I… I think I want to enable other leaders in the company

619 01:03:35.330 ⇒ 01:03:38.750 19257868273: To review execution in a different way.

620 01:03:38.950 ⇒ 01:03:44.609 19257868273: You know, like, for example, in coding, you could do code reviews, right? Everything goes through code review.

621 01:03:44.840 ⇒ 01:03:49.789 19257868273: And I don’t know, I felt really, like… it feels odd that it doesn’t exist in, like.

622 01:03:50.090 ⇒ 01:04:00.180 19257868273: for project management, like, I don’t know what… I don’t know what you review, like, what you review, and by the time you get to review, a client is churned, like, the cycles are too long.

623 01:04:00.430 ⇒ 01:04:06.749 Justin Breshears: Yeah. But I, I mean, everything that you’re saying is, like, literally how I would run, like, because I… I mean.

624 01:04:07.000 ⇒ 01:04:12.740 Justin Breshears: I had a portfolio worth $65 million, 100 projects, like…

625 01:04:13.000 ⇒ 01:04:20.040 Justin Breshears: dude, there’s no way I could do anything in that portfolio without, like, all of this kind of reporting and, like…

626 01:04:20.220 ⇒ 01:04:22.669 Justin Breshears: Data and stuff like that, so, like.

627 01:04:22.850 ⇒ 01:04:27.289 Justin Breshears: If we get that stuff in place now, we’re gonna be way ahead of.

628 01:04:27.290 ⇒ 01:04:27.920 19257868273: Yeah.

629 01:04:28.520 ⇒ 01:04:32.869 Justin Breshears: Because we just got that stuff in place within the last year at Klant, like…

630 01:04:33.270 ⇒ 01:04:50.709 Justin Breshears: and we were still, like, trying to figure out how to use it all, like, we could be so far ahead of things to… and be… it’s a snowball effect, because if we can, like, deliver better, prevent churn, you know, we’re… we have a compounding effect on, like, what efforts y’all are doing and bringing on new logos. We’re not…

631 01:04:50.710 ⇒ 01:04:57.270 19257868273: Dude, I also think, again, I think you can run these projects even cheaper, like, we can communicate better.

632 01:04:57.270 ⇒ 01:05:12.249 Justin Breshears: Because you won’t… yeah. It’ll be efficiency gains on margin, churn gains on lowering churn, and then you’re gonna compound it with y’all’s sales efforts at stacking on top of it, so…

633 01:05:12.400 ⇒ 01:05:12.900 Justin Breshears: It is.

634 01:05:12.900 ⇒ 01:05:13.600 19257868273: It’s… Yeah.

635 01:05:13.600 ⇒ 01:05:16.649 Justin Breshears: This is not only, like, crucial, it’s like…

636 01:05:16.810 ⇒ 01:05:21.560 Justin Breshears: one of the most crucial things, I think, to exponentially growing the business.

637 01:05:22.260 ⇒ 01:05:24.929 19257868273: Yeah. I think we’ll have the data by…

638 01:05:25.290 ⇒ 01:05:34.920 19257868273: By Monday on a bunch of these. That’ll be, like, my Friday afternoon, probably, so… then I’ll work on it, and then I’ll get enough to then start to hand it off, like.

639 01:05:34.920 ⇒ 01:05:35.860 Justin Breshears: If there’s anything…

640 01:05:35.860 ⇒ 01:05:36.510 19257868273: modeling.

641 01:05:36.510 ⇒ 01:05:40.169 Justin Breshears: If there’s anything in that dashboarding that you, you know, come across.

642 01:05:40.170 ⇒ 01:05:49.229 19257868273: No, I want… I want you guys to… yeah, I want you guys to do it, actually, but I kind of want you guys to… I’ll set up the basics, and then I’ll hand it off.

643 01:05:49.430 ⇒ 01:05:49.970 Justin Breshears: Okay.

644 01:05:49.970 ⇒ 01:05:55.900 19257868273: once you guys need to create new views and stuff, it’ll be really easy. There’s just some fundamental modeling that I need to do on, like.

645 01:05:56.050 ⇒ 01:06:00.240 19257868273: Joining hours, the clients, to operating, stuff like that.

646 01:06:00.560 ⇒ 01:06:06.060 Justin Breshears: Well, I mean, I’m… so any opportunities you can, you know, bring me along.

647 01:06:06.190 ⇒ 01:06:09.570 Justin Breshears: you know, I would love to dive in and learn this stuff.

648 01:06:11.280 ⇒ 01:06:11.900 19257868273: Perfect.

649 01:06:12.740 ⇒ 01:06:19.479 19257868273: Okay, cool, dude. Well, yeah, send me the stock, and then I’ll expand it a bit, and then let’s get it confirmed this week, and then…

650 01:06:19.630 ⇒ 01:06:27.189 19257868273: That way, next week, I mean, we can… you could just communicate to the team, and then this is sort of status quo from now on.

651 01:06:27.880 ⇒ 01:06:44.470 19257868273: I mean, on the sales side, like, I’ll help make sure that, like, we start getting a little bit better. Like, Robert actually will just follow. We just never decided on what to communicate here, so if it ends up in our processes and ends up in our thing, it’s actually very easy to deploy this. It’s not like…

652 01:06:44.890 ⇒ 01:06:51.250 19257868273: Again, it’s only us selling, so now that I know this exists, this is, like, a big plus for us to advertise, so…

653 01:06:51.850 ⇒ 01:06:52.680 Justin Breshears: Heck yeah.

654 01:06:53.100 ⇒ 01:06:54.570 Justin Breshears: Awesome. Will do.

655 01:06:54.570 ⇒ 01:06:55.940 19257868273: Okay. Cool.

656 01:06:56.420 ⇒ 01:06:58.350 Justin Breshears: Alright, enjoy your meeting. Bye.

657 01:06:58.350 ⇒ 01:06:58.860 19257868273: Okay.