Meeting Title: Brainforge PM Allocation Strategy Sync Date: 2025-10-01 Meeting participants: Justin Breshears, Uttam Kumaran
WEBVTT
1 00:00:44.010 ⇒ 00:00:45.290 Uttam Kumaran: Hello!
2 00:00:47.290 ⇒ 00:00:48.460 Justin Breshears: Hello again!
3 00:00:48.890 ⇒ 00:00:52.919 Uttam Kumaran: Big meeting day. I’m just, I’m just…
4 00:00:53.280 ⇒ 00:00:57.770 Uttam Kumaran: Again, you’re gonna be disappointed, but I’m just making lunch again right now.
5 00:00:57.770 ⇒ 00:00:58.800 Justin Breshears: Damn.
6 00:00:59.650 ⇒ 00:01:02.330 Justin Breshears: At least, hopefully, it’s something good. What are you having?
7 00:01:02.820 ⇒ 00:01:10.319 Uttam Kumaran: Well, yesterday I made, like, a tofu beef scramble thing, but today, I don’t know, I just…
8 00:01:10.950 ⇒ 00:01:16.839 Uttam Kumaran: Not sure what I’m gonna do, I have some eggs, I don’t know, maybe make some breakfast tacos or something.
9 00:01:18.800 ⇒ 00:01:21.429 Justin Breshears: Breakfast tacos are good any time of the day.
10 00:01:22.600 ⇒ 00:01:25.710 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I have some ground, so… or I have some…
11 00:01:25.960 ⇒ 00:01:29.430 Uttam Kumaran: Hot Italian sausage, I’m gonna fry some of that up, and then…
12 00:01:30.800 ⇒ 00:01:34.520 Uttam Kumaran: See, we’ll… we’ll… we’ll wing it from there.
13 00:01:34.940 ⇒ 00:01:36.330 Justin Breshears: I have faith in you.
14 00:01:38.820 ⇒ 00:01:39.349 Justin Breshears: Well, is it?
15 00:01:39.770 ⇒ 00:01:41.410 Justin Breshears: Still a good time to chat?
16 00:01:41.410 ⇒ 00:01:42.739 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, dude, of course.
17 00:01:44.640 ⇒ 00:01:45.420 Justin Breshears: Yep.
18 00:01:45.700 ⇒ 00:01:48.850 Justin Breshears: What can we get into today?
19 00:01:50.180 ⇒ 00:01:56.599 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I always have… I always have a lot of topics, but you tell me, what do you… what do you… what do you think about what’s on your mind?
20 00:01:57.310 ⇒ 00:02:06.099 Justin Breshears: I’m interested, after the allocation conversation, how the actuals compare, because, like, I’m looking at
21 00:02:06.840 ⇒ 00:02:10.570 Justin Breshears: some of these, and I’m like, these are very aspirational allocations.
22 00:02:12.590 ⇒ 00:02:20.710 Justin Breshears: Because I don’t think our actuals are matching that. It’s like… 6 hours, you know, for…
23 00:02:21.730 ⇒ 00:02:27.020 Justin Breshears: technical resource on, like, both default and interlude, like, I don’t know if that’s gonna stay there.
24 00:02:28.080 ⇒ 00:02:29.110 Uttam Kumaran: I agree.
25 00:02:29.240 ⇒ 00:02:33.199 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I’m… I’m sort of… one thing is, like, I think…
26 00:02:33.380 ⇒ 00:02:41.960 Uttam Kumaran: there’s definitely, like… for Robert and I, we’re both working more than 40 hours, so our allocations, I think I should just bump up our time.
27 00:02:42.080 ⇒ 00:02:45.500 Uttam Kumaran: And then, yeah, I mean, I think that…
28 00:02:45.830 ⇒ 00:02:51.209 Uttam Kumaran: what I want to be made very clear is, like, who’s over and who’s under-allocated.
29 00:02:51.420 ⇒ 00:02:56.539 Uttam Kumaran: And then second, I just want to know, like, where the gaps are. Like… Yeah.
30 00:02:56.720 ⇒ 00:03:01.919 Uttam Kumaran: You know, ideally, what we should… what we… what I’m guessing we’re gonna see is we’re gonna see…
31 00:03:02.100 ⇒ 00:03:02.860 Uttam Kumaran: like…
32 00:03:03.320 ⇒ 00:03:14.779 Uttam Kumaran: Robert on a significant amount of client work. The other thing is really nice, and I think this is where… I’m not sure if this is a company, but we’re using the same project management process for our internal work.
33 00:03:15.050 ⇒ 00:03:18.690 Uttam Kumaran: So, naturally, we should also be able to see, like.
34 00:03:18.830 ⇒ 00:03:25.270 Uttam Kumaran: who’s overloaded or underloaded, you know, internal or external.
35 00:03:25.500 ⇒ 00:03:29.480 Uttam Kumaran: And then, basically, our goal will be, okay, it’s clear we…
36 00:03:29.810 ⇒ 00:03:43.389 Uttam Kumaran: like, who has time, basically? And so we should see, like, okay, like, there was some extra time for Henry, there’s some extra time from Sam, or here and there, and like, okay, what can we do here? And then the last resort is, like, okay, let me go…
37 00:03:43.500 ⇒ 00:03:53.390 Uttam Kumaran: Let me go find a resource. And so that’s sort of what I’m hoping for. I think we’re probably just, like, one or two more hours away. I have to fiddle with operating a bit more to get there, so…
38 00:03:53.770 ⇒ 00:03:54.460 Justin Breshears: Yeah.
39 00:03:56.190 ⇒ 00:04:03.510 Justin Breshears: For sure, and then, you know, as far as, like, PM allocations are concerned, right now, they’re all very low allocations, so it’s like…
40 00:04:04.070 ⇒ 00:04:11.449 Justin Breshears: we have to temper our expectations on what the PMs can provide when, you know, there’s 2 hours a week on some of these projects.
41 00:04:11.730 ⇒ 00:04:16.039 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, so that’s also where I would probably ask you to think about, like.
42 00:04:16.300 ⇒ 00:04:21.199 Uttam Kumaran: okay, what… what is our North Star for PM, like, expectations?
43 00:04:21.470 ⇒ 00:04:22.940 Uttam Kumaran: And then…
44 00:04:23.320 ⇒ 00:04:31.609 Uttam Kumaran: we should kind of make a decision on, okay, what is possible with a few hours versus not? And there are… there are… there are things we can do, right? Like…
45 00:04:32.040 ⇒ 00:04:36.460 Uttam Kumaran: that’s where I think I want to start with, okay, what is, sort of, like.
46 00:04:36.860 ⇒ 00:04:40.179 Uttam Kumaran: what does a great PM do, and what are all those activities?
47 00:04:40.360 ⇒ 00:04:44.569 Uttam Kumaran: we look at, okay, there’s no way you can get that done with the Mars.
48 00:04:44.830 ⇒ 00:04:48.910 Uttam Kumaran: And then we… we change.
49 00:04:48.910 ⇒ 00:04:55.439 Justin Breshears: I use Treya as an example, like, her work, you know, I honestly wasn’t checking in or anything,
50 00:04:55.690 ⇒ 00:04:58.980 Justin Breshears: So, like, if we had an expectation of, like, PMs
51 00:04:59.250 ⇒ 00:05:04.749 Justin Breshears: Ensuring, like, quality of deliverables and things like that, you know, that’s obviously gonna take a lot more time.
52 00:05:05.210 ⇒ 00:05:11.320 Justin Breshears: Yeah. Because, like, I’ve been devoting maybe 2 hours a week to insomnia.
53 00:05:11.440 ⇒ 00:05:15.320 Justin Breshears: And I don’t have time to do all that stuff, you know, in that.
54 00:05:15.320 ⇒ 00:05:20.969 Uttam Kumaran: But I would also… I would also say that there’s, like… so there’s kind of… there’s kind of two ends, I would say. One is…
55 00:05:21.090 ⇒ 00:05:30.179 Uttam Kumaran: I think we just have to raise the expectations on engineers. Yeah. Like, they certainly should be communicating much more often.
56 00:05:30.180 ⇒ 00:05:31.800 Justin Breshears: And I have…
57 00:05:32.100 ⇒ 00:05:37.929 Uttam Kumaran: I have tried to make it a theme for everybody that I work with, but I think there’s an extra…
58 00:05:38.120 ⇒ 00:05:40.989 Uttam Kumaran: 5 points of PM, or whatever, that, like.
59 00:05:41.180 ⇒ 00:05:45.789 Uttam Kumaran: Can probably get achieved just by having them You know, communicate more.
60 00:05:46.160 ⇒ 00:05:52.219 Justin Breshears: No, for sure. Yeah, like, I’m not taking on the responsibility of Shreya’s work, because that’s on her.
61 00:05:52.220 ⇒ 00:05:53.049 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, yeah.
62 00:05:54.780 ⇒ 00:05:57.780 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, it was just, like, an example of, like… Yes.
63 00:05:57.790 ⇒ 00:06:05.910 Justin Breshears: what… What could possibly be, like, in that conversation if we were to increase allocations, like, I mean…
64 00:06:06.510 ⇒ 00:06:09.649 Uttam Kumaran: I think 2 hours is definitely quite low.
65 00:06:09.860 ⇒ 00:06:10.340 Justin Breshears: Oh, yeah.
66 00:06:10.340 ⇒ 00:06:12.050 Uttam Kumaran: Like, I would say the minimum…
67 00:06:12.050 ⇒ 00:06:15.300 Justin Breshears: Bare minimum, like, I’m running stand-ups, and…
68 00:06:15.410 ⇒ 00:06:19.620 Justin Breshears: like, coordinating client communications and tasks. Like, that’s…
69 00:06:19.620 ⇒ 00:06:31.219 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, so as you know, like, I like to think of things as, like, okay, what lever am we pulling next? And so for me, the biggest thing is if we have RICO allocated on stuff.
70 00:06:31.300 ⇒ 00:06:39.889 Uttam Kumaran: internally, like, client work is the most essential. So, I want to look at, okay, what are the PM team’s allocations?
71 00:06:40.610 ⇒ 00:06:47.039 Uttam Kumaran: there’s kind of a couple things we can do. One is, I want to make sure our white glove clients are served 100%.
72 00:06:47.080 ⇒ 00:06:48.110 Justin Breshears: Nope. Right.
73 00:06:48.110 ⇒ 00:06:52.419 Uttam Kumaran: So that’s number one. Second is, we can start to pull from resources that are…
74 00:06:52.950 ⇒ 00:06:55.500 Uttam Kumaran: And this is where, okay, if you’re like, look.
75 00:06:55.990 ⇒ 00:07:07.549 Uttam Kumaran: these internal teams have to go without PMing, don’t worry, because they’ve gone without PMing before we decided to sort of put everything under one roof. So, I can actually make that call, and then…
76 00:07:07.880 ⇒ 00:07:12.039 Uttam Kumaran: And then… Another person who’s just an internal PM, you know.
77 00:07:12.040 ⇒ 00:07:16.320 Justin Breshears: When the internal stuff is, like, paused, we can definitely use Ricoh elsewhere.
78 00:07:16.520 ⇒ 00:07:22.329 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, so Ricoh’s time from AI and things like that. So I’ll make sure that, like.
79 00:07:22.850 ⇒ 00:07:30.139 Uttam Kumaran: That can get… that… that’s there, and then, look, if you’re like, look, our current thing, we can’t support this, we need…
80 00:07:30.320 ⇒ 00:07:44.929 Uttam Kumaran: additional people, then that’s just it, and then we’re gonna go to the market. You know, I would like to see if we can try to… to think about our, like, coordinator strategy, and see, like… and that’s a much cheaper thing for us to try.
81 00:07:45.110 ⇒ 00:07:50.459 Uttam Kumaran: Right. Both in, like, time to get that person and time to test, then going and getting another
82 00:07:50.680 ⇒ 00:07:53.009 Uttam Kumaran: you know, PM. So…
83 00:07:53.420 ⇒ 00:08:07.499 Uttam Kumaran: again, that’s another option if you’re like, hey, I… we… looks like we need an extra 20-30%. A coordinator would help out in this way and allow us to do that, and that’s who I’ll go… that’s who I’ll go for.
84 00:08:07.500 ⇒ 00:08:10.530 Justin Breshears: I would like to kind of just arrive at that, even if we’re, like.
85 00:08:10.860 ⇒ 00:08:17.370 Uttam Kumaran: 40-50% confident on that. I would like to arrive at that decision, because each of those things… this week, because each of those things
86 00:08:17.500 ⇒ 00:08:20.260 Uttam Kumaran: take a little bit of time.
87 00:08:20.770 ⇒ 00:08:22.779 Uttam Kumaran: So, I want to try to…
88 00:08:23.500 ⇒ 00:08:33.140 Uttam Kumaran: I don’t need every… I don’t need everybody to be confident in the decision, but I just need some directionality on, like, okay, we need external people, internal shifts, sort of where we’re at.
89 00:08:33.750 ⇒ 00:08:34.380 Justin Breshears: Yup.
90 00:08:36.460 ⇒ 00:08:42.819 Justin Breshears: Yeah, so I think this is, like, a good starting place, like, what we put down on paper today.
91 00:08:42.950 ⇒ 00:08:55.850 Justin Breshears: good starting place, see where it shakes out, you know, get those estimates and actuals to match up a little bit closer, and then we can make those decisions going from there. So I think this month of October will be telling for us on that.
92 00:08:55.980 ⇒ 00:08:56.750 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
93 00:08:58.210 ⇒ 00:09:09.000 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, and then, look, I think if we get the coordinators, and hopefully those coordinators are all people that potentially can graduate a little bit more, or when I look for coordinators, I’ll try to look for people that have
94 00:09:09.190 ⇒ 00:09:11.649 Uttam Kumaran: Some amount of formal certification.
95 00:09:13.500 ⇒ 00:09:26.569 Uttam Kumaran: You know, and then… yeah, that’s sort of, like, how I’ll ride it. I know we’re gonna be strapped, but the other thing, again, is, like, I told Rico and Amber very directly that I’m just gonna remove them from… I have them both doing some…
96 00:09:26.570 ⇒ 00:09:33.690 Uttam Kumaran: splitting, sort of, leadership tasks with me across delivery, and so I was like, you guys, off of all that, focus on
97 00:09:34.040 ⇒ 00:09:36.659 Uttam Kumaran: Managing your clients,
98 00:09:36.850 ⇒ 00:09:49.949 Uttam Kumaran: Because the last thing I want to do is say one thing, and then my expectations are… are different. You know, like… so I don’t want them to get jammed that way, like, I don’t want… they’re still assigned to a bunch of the work, so…
99 00:09:50.310 ⇒ 00:09:52.320 Uttam Kumaran: That’s… that’s also fine.
100 00:09:54.920 ⇒ 00:10:04.600 Uttam Kumaran: And then, yeah, I do think that, like, again, in Henry, Zoran, Awash, and Sam, you have quite a bit of organizational
101 00:10:04.860 ⇒ 00:10:19.210 Uttam Kumaran: like, they’re go… they’re all pretty organized people, so… it’s just gonna require, like, leaning on them a little bit in the short term, I think. I’m just leaning on us as a team to sort of bridge the gap before we can go sell some of our project managers.
102 00:10:21.020 ⇒ 00:10:21.560 Justin Breshears: better.
103 00:10:22.960 ⇒ 00:10:31.450 Justin Breshears: Yeah, so I think that’ll be the filling out process, is, like, you know, kind of the breakdown between, like, what the tech leads will, you know, take on, and the PMs will take on, and then…
104 00:10:31.590 ⇒ 00:10:41.079 Justin Breshears: you know, what we can… we’re able to then jointly take away from, like, a Robert who is way too involved in… in…
105 00:10:41.200 ⇒ 00:10:44.220 Justin Breshears: You know, the actual tactics of the projects.
106 00:10:45.510 ⇒ 00:10:48.220 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, and so this is where, you know,
107 00:10:48.670 ⇒ 00:10:56.820 Uttam Kumaran: like, one of the things I was spending time thinking about today is sort of about, like, the strategist position, and, you know, I think…
108 00:10:57.020 ⇒ 00:11:07.650 Uttam Kumaran: it’s… it’s gonna be… there’s definitely a component of it that we have to go to the market and find, and I’m gonna kind of car… start… I’ve already started to kick that off and having conversations.
109 00:11:07.860 ⇒ 00:11:13.860 Uttam Kumaran: But also, I think there’s a couple people internally that could be candidates. Like, I think,
110 00:11:14.310 ⇒ 00:11:32.379 Uttam Kumaran: Henry, Zoron, Sam, Awashi, and Demolade all are, like, anywhere from, like, 10% to 30% away from, like, being… kind of, like, being able to do some of that. I think the advice I got today from a friend was consider doing, like, an apprenticeship
111 00:11:34.120 ⇒ 00:11:38.500 Uttam Kumaran: I think anyone who comes from PM or comes from engineering.
112 00:11:38.700 ⇒ 00:11:49.150 Uttam Kumaran: there’s just gonna be… if I’m taking all those folks that are all from the engineering side, what they’re gonna laugh is the commercial side, right? Thinking about sales, thinking about…
113 00:11:49.230 ⇒ 00:12:03.740 Uttam Kumaran: presentation skills, strategizing, like, and then how to delegate to the PMs and the team. So that’s… that’s what I basically will have to think about. Okay, let’s say if I was going to put everybody through a 6-week apprenticeship under me.
114 00:12:04.170 ⇒ 00:12:09.330 Uttam Kumaran: what do I need to do? How does that need to be structured so that at week 2, 4, 6,
115 00:12:09.650 ⇒ 00:12:21.319 Uttam Kumaran: And I’m just throwing out 6, I don’t know. You know, I just wanna… I just want it to be something that’s not, like, 6 months. So, at 2, 4, 6 weeks, what do I need to see to then move them to the next round?
116 00:12:21.320 ⇒ 00:12:31.320 Uttam Kumaran: And so that’s kind of, like, what I’m thinking about doing. Again, these are all just thoughts from today, but I’m sort of thinking about, okay, maybe I should take… I should propose it to each of them.
117 00:12:31.450 ⇒ 00:12:39.350 Uttam Kumaran: I should then take them on a 2, 4, 6-week journey where they spend time with me, and then I don’t ex… I actually shouldn’t be…
118 00:12:39.810 ⇒ 00:12:46.269 Uttam Kumaran: I’m not expecting anybody to make it. So, in parallel, I’m gonna go onto the market.
119 00:12:46.910 ⇒ 00:13:00.500 Uttam Kumaran: Ideally, one of those people can shape up to sort of start to do it, but all of them have to improve their way they present to clients, kind of the way they dance, how they think about opportunities, how they work with you.
120 00:13:00.710 ⇒ 00:13:03.510 Uttam Kumaran: But that’s sort of, like.
121 00:13:03.780 ⇒ 00:13:07.319 Uttam Kumaran: I would like to give that group of folks a shot first.
122 00:13:07.930 ⇒ 00:13:13.829 Uttam Kumaran: In addition to, like, okay, I’m already gonna start to go… I’ve already started asking around and trying to find those people.
123 00:13:15.140 ⇒ 00:13:15.740 Justin Breshears: I’m sure.
124 00:13:18.440 ⇒ 00:13:22.139 Justin Breshears: I think it’s a good plan. I mean, you gotta see… you know.
125 00:13:22.410 ⇒ 00:13:25.090 Justin Breshears: See what they can do in those situations.
126 00:13:25.210 ⇒ 00:13:32.410 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I would like it to… I would like it to be… I mean, Henry’s showing a lot of promise in that area, too, so I have a good feeling, but… yeah.
127 00:13:36.500 ⇒ 00:13:40.980 Justin Breshears: Yeah, the one I’m worried about is I don’t… I don’t know about a way his communication is gonna be…
128 00:13:40.980 ⇒ 00:13:41.790 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
129 00:13:41.790 ⇒ 00:13:42.560 Justin Breshears: Brilliance.
130 00:13:43.480 ⇒ 00:13:46.810 Uttam Kumaran: I agree. That’s gonna be the biggest thing for him, is, like, the…
131 00:13:47.190 ⇒ 00:13:53.150 Uttam Kumaran: his communication, and again, like, also some people are just not, like, cut out for it. So there’s gonna be some people who…
132 00:13:53.960 ⇒ 00:13:57.100 Uttam Kumaran: who say, like, I want to do it, and then quickly, in two weeks.
133 00:13:57.320 ⇒ 00:13:59.670 Uttam Kumaran: they’re not able to do it, right? So…
134 00:13:59.670 ⇒ 00:14:00.230 Justin Breshears: Yeah.
135 00:14:00.230 ⇒ 00:14:03.810 Uttam Kumaran: I’m kind of… I just want to give some people a shot, but…
136 00:14:04.970 ⇒ 00:14:09.899 Uttam Kumaran: you know, it’s, also, my, my, like, I’m a, I’m like a…
137 00:14:10.010 ⇒ 00:14:14.359 Uttam Kumaran: you may not see this, but I’m someone that just holds
138 00:14:14.580 ⇒ 00:14:20.750 Uttam Kumaran: stuffed a very high standard, although I know I’m also very, like, understanding of limits, but for example, like.
139 00:14:21.560 ⇒ 00:14:25.040 Uttam Kumaran: Yo, you need to fix your lighting, you need to get your new camera, and you need to…
140 00:14:25.380 ⇒ 00:14:32.289 Uttam Kumaran: like, your slides appear, like, I’m a very, like, specific person, so some people may not like that, and they’re not gonna make it.
141 00:14:32.720 ⇒ 00:14:45.610 Uttam Kumaran: that’s because, like, I’m like, look, you have to… to go in front of a client and to, like, be prepared to walk into any room and figure anything out, like, it takes, like, a… takes a skill set, you know? And… and…
142 00:14:45.930 ⇒ 00:14:47.010 Uttam Kumaran: I do think, like, the.
143 00:14:47.010 ⇒ 00:14:48.330 Justin Breshears: matters. Like…
144 00:14:48.680 ⇒ 00:14:49.640 Uttam Kumaran: Oh, yeah.
145 00:14:49.640 ⇒ 00:14:52.799 Justin Breshears: Consulting’s a very perception-based business, and the client…
146 00:14:52.800 ⇒ 00:14:53.240 Uttam Kumaran: best.
147 00:14:53.240 ⇒ 00:15:08.669 Justin Breshears: We need to create a narrative of us based on our work and how we present ourselves, and it’s very hard to change that narrative once it’s set. So, you can easily lose a client and get bad churn based on they just didn’t get good vibes from us.
148 00:15:09.050 ⇒ 00:15:11.570 Uttam Kumaran: I know! Well, that’s… but also, that’s the thing, it’s like…
149 00:15:11.900 ⇒ 00:15:20.249 Uttam Kumaran: I want to show people that, look, like, you may be coming from a very precise engineering environment, this is not that. This is business, like…
150 00:15:21.090 ⇒ 00:15:22.829 Uttam Kumaran: Like, you just gotta…
151 00:15:23.360 ⇒ 00:15:35.399 Uttam Kumaran: And if I can teach you that… and… but the thing is, I don’t… I don’t even really know it to a science, personally, so it has to be sort of something that’s more like, just me for a while, start to pick things up.
152 00:15:36.200 ⇒ 00:15:37.379 Uttam Kumaran: And then…
153 00:15:38.150 ⇒ 00:15:43.430 Uttam Kumaran: if you… if you think you got it, then one day I’ll stop showing… you… you take over. And if…
154 00:15:43.820 ⇒ 00:15:48.229 Uttam Kumaran: If one of those people internally can do it, Good, if not, then…
155 00:15:48.670 ⇒ 00:15:56.899 Uttam Kumaran: that’s also fine, like, we’ll find those folks, but you’re right, it’s like… but this is also where I think we’re gonna innovate a little bit on our recruiting process, like.
156 00:15:57.230 ⇒ 00:16:09.080 Uttam Kumaran: I think we’re going to try and use, like, kind of the Loom strategy a little bit, which was great. I mean, this is why, like, I reflect on your process, and your Loom is actually so…
157 00:16:09.080 ⇒ 00:16:22.260 Uttam Kumaran: it was clear that you were firing from the hip, but also, like, had thought about it a little bit, but were also very honest, also just capable of, like, speaking in front of a camera on Loom, like.
158 00:16:22.490 ⇒ 00:16:28.240 Uttam Kumaran: half the candidates couldn’t even install Loom, you know, and then the other half was, like, reading from ChatGPT.
159 00:16:28.390 ⇒ 00:16:34.110 Uttam Kumaran: So I actually think, like, our filtering mechanism we will improve on, and then we’re gonna have…
160 00:16:34.360 ⇒ 00:16:37.909 Uttam Kumaran: A bit of, like, a case… Style interview, you know?
161 00:16:38.070 ⇒ 00:16:39.170 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
162 00:16:39.950 ⇒ 00:16:40.960 Uttam Kumaran: Is what I’m thinking.
163 00:16:40.960 ⇒ 00:16:45.659 Justin Breshears: One of the most helpful things I had in interviewing, is…
164 00:16:45.760 ⇒ 00:16:49.780 Justin Breshears: like, mock kickoffs. And we can, like, figure out, like.
165 00:16:49.780 ⇒ 00:16:50.650 Uttam Kumaran: Interesting.
166 00:16:50.650 ⇒ 00:17:00.450 Justin Breshears: Okay. We would do… the process was, like, an initial recruiter screen, so let’s call that the Loom. The Loom is our initial recruiter screen.
167 00:17:00.580 ⇒ 00:17:10.240 Justin Breshears: we take from there, like, only candidates that, like you said, can present in front of a camera, like, have the professionalism. We’re looking at soft skills there.
168 00:17:10.369 ⇒ 00:17:11.720 Justin Breshears: More than anything.
169 00:17:11.859 ⇒ 00:17:28.889 Justin Breshears: And we take the people that we like, the way that they communicate, and the way they present themselves. Okay, we take from there, then we do a hour-long, like, in-depth review of, like, background and experience, and that’s where we get more into the weeds. What did you do? Like, what’s your experiences? What’s your skills? Like, all that stuff.
170 00:17:29.570 ⇒ 00:17:32.629 Justin Breshears: And then from there, the ones we like out of that.
171 00:17:32.840 ⇒ 00:17:45.110 Justin Breshears: we run through a mock kickoff, where we are the client, you are Brainforge, and you’re presenting on whatever the prompt is, like, we want
172 00:17:45.410 ⇒ 00:17:46.689 Justin Breshears: Oh, I don’t know.
173 00:17:48.030 ⇒ 00:17:49.430 Justin Breshears: I don’t know what a good example.
174 00:17:49.430 ⇒ 00:17:55.119 Uttam Kumaran: Well, I mean, we could pick an interlude, like, where, like, hey, you’re coming in because we want to automate this design process.
175 00:17:55.120 ⇒ 00:18:01.049 Justin Breshears: Right, and so you’re gonna build a whole deck, presentation, you know, present on a proposal, basically.
176 00:18:01.600 ⇒ 00:18:05.089 Uttam Kumaran: Well, would you test for anything technical? Like, I guess my thought was, like.
177 00:18:05.370 ⇒ 00:18:09.379 Uttam Kumaran: Maybe the first rap, first part of it, it should be, like, a two-week thing, where it’s like.
178 00:18:09.630 ⇒ 00:18:12.580 Uttam Kumaran: The first week is so technical, like…
179 00:18:12.760 ⇒ 00:18:13.320 Justin Breshears: Yeah.
180 00:18:13.340 ⇒ 00:18:18.510 Uttam Kumaran: You have to present to someone on their technical team about, like, kind of, like, what is your project roadmap and stuff, and then
181 00:18:19.360 ⇒ 00:18:30.270 Uttam Kumaran: That way we can filter people out before I waste more people’s time. Yeah. And then the next one, another week where, okay, you can… you kind of have to do a case in front of
182 00:18:30.790 ⇒ 00:18:33.550 Uttam Kumaran: Like, yeah, basically probably our project managers are…
183 00:18:34.370 ⇒ 00:18:38.550 Justin Breshears: I would almost combine it where it’s like, you’re asking them to build out a project roadmap.
184 00:18:38.860 ⇒ 00:18:45.860 Justin Breshears: That has, you know, enough technical detail, but not, like, super in the weeds, because, like, I mean.
185 00:18:46.200 ⇒ 00:18:51.499 Justin Breshears: you probably have to do that in calls with clients pre-sales, right? Where you have to…
186 00:18:52.320 ⇒ 00:18:53.840 Justin Breshears: I mean, I don’t think necessarily…
187 00:18:53.840 ⇒ 00:18:56.840 Uttam Kumaran: Oh, definitely. I mean, well, I have to, like, kind of know the lingo, like… Right.
188 00:18:56.840 ⇒ 00:18:57.300 Justin Breshears: Right, right, right.
189 00:18:57.300 ⇒ 00:19:04.400 Uttam Kumaran: you don’t make… you may not know, like, there’s still some stuff that I don’t, like, I’ve… I’ve done a while ago, or I don’t know all the exacts, but, like.
190 00:19:04.410 ⇒ 00:19:08.379 Justin Breshears: The client isn’t asking you to do it on the call, they just want you… they just want to know…
191 00:19:08.430 ⇒ 00:19:12.130 Uttam Kumaran: So you kind of have to just be like, yeah, you throw at us.
192 00:19:12.130 ⇒ 00:19:30.260 Justin Breshears: Use actual projects that we have done, the ones that are good examples, build out a prompt for them, and then have them create a presentation and present it to us. Like, you know, you could even call it, like, this is the kickoff of the project. Like, you have this information from the pre-sales process, and…
193 00:19:30.570 ⇒ 00:19:38.029 Justin Breshears: You’re building out, like, our… our plan, basically, to attack the problem to the client. And your goal is to get buy-in
194 00:19:38.440 ⇒ 00:19:40.270 Justin Breshears: From us, the client, on it.
195 00:19:40.610 ⇒ 00:19:43.820 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah. I get a 30-minute presentation, boom.
196 00:19:45.060 ⇒ 00:19:46.770 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, that seems about right.
197 00:19:47.270 ⇒ 00:19:57.590 Justin Breshears: It’s very common in consulting firms to do it. I’ve had to do it multiple times. I had to do it for Kaylin, I’ve had to do it for others.
198 00:19:57.590 ⇒ 00:20:01.709 Uttam Kumaran: It was a… you think it was a fec… as a… as an interviewee, what was your feeling about it?
199 00:20:01.710 ⇒ 00:20:16.549 Justin Breshears: Oh, I hated it. I hated it with a white-hot passion. But, as an interviewer, it was the single biggest tool that weeded out people that really weren’t good fits, because you have so many people that can BS their way through.
200 00:20:16.550 ⇒ 00:20:17.030 Uttam Kumaran: I know.
201 00:20:17.030 ⇒ 00:20:25.759 Justin Breshears: talking, like you and I are talking right now. They can do that all day long, but then you can’t hide in one of those kickoff… mock kickoffs.
202 00:20:26.210 ⇒ 00:20:29.809 Justin Breshears: You can’t. Like, the people that aced their second round interviews
203 00:20:29.940 ⇒ 00:20:32.480 Justin Breshears: And just flopped their panels, like.
204 00:20:32.620 ⇒ 00:20:40.429 Justin Breshears: They would have been horrible in front of our clients, and we would have wasted a lot of time and money hiring them, and then firing them right away.
205 00:20:41.000 ⇒ 00:20:41.510 Justin Breshears: It’s not…
206 00:20:41.510 ⇒ 00:20:42.030 Uttam Kumaran: Is there anything?
207 00:20:42.030 ⇒ 00:20:47.230 Justin Breshears: Perfect, because I had somebody, like, ace their panel one time, and he was fired 3 weeks later after he got on the job.
208 00:20:47.820 ⇒ 00:21:00.959 Uttam Kumaran: Okay, I mean, look, I don’t know, I don’t think we do a great job, and, like, we should… we… our case is, like, come hang out with us, and that takes some work on, like, that’s… that’s our… our flavor.
209 00:21:01.310 ⇒ 00:21:03.000 Justin Breshears: Which was the best way to do it.
210 00:21:03.000 ⇒ 00:21:07.959 Uttam Kumaran: It’s the ultimate case, but it is very emotionally taxing for the folks it’s not working.
211 00:21:07.960 ⇒ 00:21:11.610 Justin Breshears: It’s time-intensive, and it’s potentially damaging to clients, like in the case of Shreya.
212 00:21:11.610 ⇒ 00:21:12.480 Uttam Kumaran: Yes, very.
213 00:21:12.480 ⇒ 00:21:14.630 Justin Breshears: Strategic Client, and she flopped.
214 00:21:15.000 ⇒ 00:21:16.449 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
215 00:21:17.050 ⇒ 00:21:23.129 Justin Breshears: I mean, two… two clients flopped. I mean, Robert said Ellie didn’t renew specifically because of her work, like.
216 00:21:23.130 ⇒ 00:21:24.160 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
217 00:21:24.510 ⇒ 00:21:30.129 Justin Breshears: So that’s two big clients that she flopped on. So, there is a lot of benefit to the trial approach.
218 00:21:30.330 ⇒ 00:21:35.169 Justin Breshears: But it’s time-intensive and potentially churn-raising.
219 00:21:35.170 ⇒ 00:21:41.849 Uttam Kumaran: No, no, we should… we… I mean, this is where, like, overall, my bar is just getting higher. Basically.
220 00:21:42.250 ⇒ 00:21:58.120 Uttam Kumaran: like, I don’t want people to trial. I just think overall, like, this is… this is also, like, we’re just getting less desperate the better people we get. Like, now that we have you, and we have some good people internally, I’m less desperate. And my desperation is a function of, like.
221 00:21:58.480 ⇒ 00:22:00.040 Uttam Kumaran: Worst case.
222 00:22:00.250 ⇒ 00:22:08.449 Uttam Kumaran: we stop selling, and we just execute the products we have, and we’re okay. Right? Before, we didn’t even have that, like, we didn’t have that…
223 00:22:08.520 ⇒ 00:22:21.490 Uttam Kumaran: even that thing kind of settled, like, the executing the project we just have. So, for that reason, my desperation meter is changing, and now I think, in order to set you up and all the PMs.
224 00:22:21.610 ⇒ 00:22:25.500 Uttam Kumaran: And to set Robert up to sell, like, I have to go get just…
225 00:22:25.640 ⇒ 00:22:32.449 Uttam Kumaran: I have to just go get Killers, and so our bar has to change. Yep. And I think the Krate…
226 00:22:32.780 ⇒ 00:22:40.439 Uttam Kumaran: is a great way of doing that. I just think, would there be any part of, like, when you did cases that you would change in order to make it…
227 00:22:41.520 ⇒ 00:22:44.200 Uttam Kumaran: Better for the interviewee, or like, yeah, tell me.
228 00:22:44.200 ⇒ 00:22:59.450 Justin Breshears: Yeah, definitely, because I think that at Kalent, we got too caught up in, like, well, did they get the thing right? You know, like, the prompt should not be about, like, a right or wrong yes or no answer. It should be…
229 00:22:59.840 ⇒ 00:23:11.190 Justin Breshears: Open enough to where what we’re really judging is their… their skill set, and how they came about certain things, their thought processes, and how they presented those.
230 00:23:11.390 ⇒ 00:23:18.800 Justin Breshears: basically, like, It’s a variation on the old cliche, like, sales interview, sell me this pen, right?
231 00:23:18.800 ⇒ 00:23:20.080 Uttam Kumaran: Yes, yes.
232 00:23:20.080 ⇒ 00:23:38.200 Justin Breshears: you’re not actually going to buy the pin, so it’s not about a, like, right or wrong, it’s… I’m looking at, like, how do you go about it, and how do you… how do you persuade me? How do you present yourself in the pen, right? That’s what it should be about, and so, really, it’s not about… because I got… I was on so many, where the other panelists were like.
233 00:23:38.550 ⇒ 00:23:47.399 Justin Breshears: oh, well, you know, their budget doesn’t make sense for a 6-month migration and all this stuff, and I’m like, they don’t know. They don’t know our rates.
234 00:23:47.400 ⇒ 00:23:48.060 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, yeah.
235 00:23:48.060 ⇒ 00:24:05.870 Justin Breshears: like, why do we care if they got the budget right? Like, I care, you know, the thought process behind it, and I care about, like, how they… like, you wanna… you wanna have some, curveball questions in there, and, like, how do they field a question out of left field from the… from the client, right? Because you’re gonna have those.
236 00:24:06.590 ⇒ 00:24:09.920 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, that’s why I would… I would just tap… interrupt.
237 00:24:10.340 ⇒ 00:24:11.150 Uttam Kumaran: like…
238 00:24:11.420 ⇒ 00:24:14.699 Justin Breshears: Yeah. Like, just mess with the thing, you know?
239 00:24:14.700 ⇒ 00:24:15.290 Uttam Kumaran: Like, just…
240 00:24:15.290 ⇒ 00:24:27.800 Justin Breshears: totally changed the game, like, we present in the prompt, like, a 3-month timeline, right? And they go, hey, you know, our investors are breathing down their necks, like, we actually have to have this in two months.
241 00:24:27.800 ⇒ 00:24:29.199 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, we have fixed…
242 00:24:29.200 ⇒ 00:24:31.380 Justin Breshears: Like, what can you do for us?
243 00:24:31.540 ⇒ 00:24:37.179 Justin Breshears: Yeah. How well can they think on the fly, right there? Like, how well do they know what they’re trying to present?
244 00:24:37.920 ⇒ 00:24:52.140 Uttam Kumaran: Inside out, where it doesn’t matter. Yeah, I mean, we acquired, like, for example, I called some guy yesterday, Robert told me that he, last time he asked, he’s like, he wants to deploy this strategy to a bunch of places, and I called him, he’s like, look, we just want to start with this one, and like.
245 00:24:52.420 ⇒ 00:24:55.920 Uttam Kumaran: So talk me through that. I was like, okay, yeah, great, perfect.
246 00:24:56.120 ⇒ 00:24:57.009 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, and I…
247 00:24:57.010 ⇒ 00:25:03.110 Justin Breshears: That’s the biggest thing, is, like, clients don’t actually know what they want a lot of times, and what they want changes on a weekly basis.
248 00:25:03.450 ⇒ 00:25:04.140 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
249 00:25:04.140 ⇒ 00:25:06.659 Justin Breshears: So, that’s part of consulting, is like.
250 00:25:07.040 ⇒ 00:25:12.409 Justin Breshears: Okay, you’ve been given the scenario, but it changed between the time that you were given the scenario and when you actually kick off, so…
251 00:25:12.410 ⇒ 00:25:13.320 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
252 00:25:13.320 ⇒ 00:25:27.260 Justin Breshears: how can you pivot? How can you make it work, right? So stuff like that is what I would focus on. It’s less about the specifics of the prompt, and it’s more about just, like, I want to see this person in a live fire situation before I put them in a live fire situation.
253 00:25:29.040 ⇒ 00:25:33.790 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, so first round loom, I think, is good, and then we go straight to, like, I mean…
254 00:25:34.530 ⇒ 00:25:38.999 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, maybe it is… maybe it is, like, a week. You have a week to do this, and you have one…
255 00:25:39.440 ⇒ 00:25:47.920 Justin Breshears: I like the second round being more in-depth technical, for, like, a strategist role?
256 00:25:48.120 ⇒ 00:25:53.939 Justin Breshears: Because on the, like, mock kickoff, if we do that that way, like, the panel…
257 00:25:54.390 ⇒ 00:25:56.689 Justin Breshears: We’re not gonna get super technical.
258 00:25:57.060 ⇒ 00:26:04.219 Justin Breshears: I see, okay, yeah. So, I would rather have, like, the technical stuff vetted, and then I want to see the consulting skills on that panel.
259 00:26:04.740 ⇒ 00:26:11.260 Justin Breshears: And I think that would be, like, a sufficient interview process to, like, get somebody started.
260 00:26:12.180 ⇒ 00:26:24.489 Uttam Kumaran: Well, to give you a sense of, like, what we would do on the technicals, we would just basically… the thing is, I want to have a through line between the whole interview, so the… the technical piece would be, hey, here’s a fake data set.
261 00:26:25.030 ⇒ 00:26:30.049 Uttam Kumaran: And of, like, an e-com company, and your job is to do, like, literally what we asked Shreya to do.
262 00:26:30.510 ⇒ 00:26:33.559 Uttam Kumaran: And here are, like, a couple… here are, like, a couple, like.
263 00:26:34.280 ⇒ 00:26:37.779 Uttam Kumaran: Here’s, like, a couple random questions, like, our CMO has.
264 00:26:39.100 ⇒ 00:26:40.509 Uttam Kumaran: Go for it, like…
265 00:26:40.530 ⇒ 00:26:43.219 Justin Breshears: They’re not ex… it’s not expansive, and…
266 00:26:43.220 ⇒ 00:26:46.160 Uttam Kumaran: It’s also, like, some of the questions are, like, clearly…
267 00:26:46.530 ⇒ 00:26:54.659 Uttam Kumaran: Like, either wrong questions to ask, or it’s, like, it’s obvious that… it should be obvious to you, like, that you have to go above and beyond a little bit, and you have to figure some stuff out.
268 00:26:54.810 ⇒ 00:27:05.469 Uttam Kumaran: And then the first… the first part of the interview is, like, are they able to just do that? And then someone reviews that work, and then the next part is like, great, now your job is to basically present it.
269 00:27:06.030 ⇒ 00:27:08.149 Uttam Kumaran: What’s… seems pretty fair.
270 00:27:08.340 ⇒ 00:27:10.810 Justin Breshears: Yeah, I think that’s a great plan.
271 00:27:11.090 ⇒ 00:27:17.750 Justin Breshears: Yeah, I’m not as brushed up on, like, how to test the technical stuff, so, like, I’ll lean on y’all for that, but…
272 00:27:17.750 ⇒ 00:27:29.990 Uttam Kumaran: That’s fine. That is actually, like, I’m… I’m okay… I’m okay with that, although we have not been doing a great job on that, because people have just been bluffing and using ChatGBT, but.
273 00:27:29.990 ⇒ 00:27:34.370 Justin Breshears: Yeah, it needs to be a situation where they can’t, like, bluff their way through it, and that’s where.
274 00:27:34.370 ⇒ 00:27:38.099 Uttam Kumaran: Oh, like, it’ll… yeah, exactly. But the case is really hard.
275 00:27:38.270 ⇒ 00:27:48.650 Justin Breshears: Yeah. You just throw, like, a curveball at them live and see how they handle it. If it was GT… if it was GPT that was propping them up, they will fold on a live call.
276 00:27:49.000 ⇒ 00:27:56.599 Uttam Kumaran: Dude, you know what the craziest thing is? We were interviewing someone for the PM role, and they were using, like, an overlay.
277 00:27:56.750 ⇒ 00:28:01.890 Uttam Kumaran: Where we would ask a question, and they would, like, sort of pause, or, like.
278 00:28:02.120 ⇒ 00:28:07.840 Uttam Kumaran: Kinda, like, hesitate for a sec, and then just… straight readout, like, GPT output.
279 00:28:07.840 ⇒ 00:28:08.600 Justin Breshears: Oh my god.
280 00:28:08.620 ⇒ 00:28:14.590 Uttam Kumaran: It was me and Alex doing the interview, and then we were both, like… I DM’d him, I was like.
281 00:28:15.110 ⇒ 00:28:22.689 Uttam Kumaran: what is going on here? And he was like, he was like, I was gonna… he was like, I was gonna message you, but I don’t know, I don’t wanna mess up on Zoom. And I was like.
282 00:28:23.050 ⇒ 00:28:31.230 Uttam Kumaran: I was like, this is so weird. Something feels off, and then he was like, okay, let me try something, and then he basically just, like, interrupted the person, and then asked.
283 00:28:31.350 ⇒ 00:28:32.299 Uttam Kumaran: Like, a left…
284 00:28:32.480 ⇒ 00:28:45.409 Uttam Kumaran: like, a… just a curveball question, and then we… the same thing happened, where they waited, and then they… they just read out, and then the trouble was, the guy was so bad that he just, like, read, like, straight. He didn’t even, like…
285 00:28:45.510 ⇒ 00:28:52.800 Uttam Kumaran: look for, like, highlights, and then pick a couple of things. He just, like… so he would talk for, like, 4 minutes straight, and…
286 00:28:53.320 ⇒ 00:28:57.969 Justin Breshears: I really don’t know what these people’s plan is once they get into the role, because, like.
287 00:28:58.270 ⇒ 00:29:14.959 Justin Breshears: you will be found out if you don’t have the skills. I wish I could say I was surprised, but I’ve had that happen so many times, interviewing, where they’re clearly just reading off a script or something, and I’ve caught them out before. I’ve been like, hey, are you… are you reading off a script right now?
288 00:29:14.960 ⇒ 00:29:20.440 Uttam Kumaran: Wow. And they will fumble, and it’s over at that point.
289 00:29:22.620 ⇒ 00:29:23.110 Justin Breshears: Yeah.
290 00:29:23.110 ⇒ 00:29:23.780 Uttam Kumaran: So, I mean, I…
291 00:29:23.780 ⇒ 00:29:25.170 Justin Breshears: I did my loom.
292 00:29:25.300 ⇒ 00:29:31.569 Justin Breshears: I didn’t prepare any kind of script, because you can tell, and things are just more natural
293 00:29:32.170 ⇒ 00:29:41.099 Justin Breshears: and I mean, the way I interview is, like, I might as well be, like, 100% honest in who I am, because that’s who I’m gonna be when I get in the role.
294 00:29:41.100 ⇒ 00:29:44.539 Uttam Kumaran: But you believe in your product, like, some people don’t believe in their product, you know.
295 00:29:44.540 ⇒ 00:29:45.970 Justin Breshears: Yeah, I’m like…
296 00:29:46.110 ⇒ 00:29:51.039 Justin Breshears: if I am who I am, and they don’t like it, then it wasn’t gonna be a good fit anyway.
297 00:29:51.790 ⇒ 00:30:04.589 Uttam Kumaran: I’m telling you, some people just suck, and then they’re just… they’re always trying to just, like, fake their way to the next thing. But also, yeah, like, I wasn’t, like, interviewing, I wasn’t looking at looms, like, I was just person stuttering, or whatever. I’m like.
298 00:30:05.000 ⇒ 00:30:09.609 Uttam Kumaran: In 30 seconds, am I seeing that they, like, actually kind of know…
299 00:30:10.440 ⇒ 00:30:11.579 Justin Breshears: Yeah, you can tell.
300 00:30:11.910 ⇒ 00:30:12.720 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
301 00:30:12.720 ⇒ 00:30:26.130 Justin Breshears: We can tell, and it’s a… it’s an art form, so, that’s what I think the… the interview process should be like for this, because it… that will limit the amount of time suck that it is on you and the rest of the interviewing team.
302 00:30:26.740 ⇒ 00:30:30.429 Justin Breshears: I mean, you’re looking at a total of 2 hours through that whole process.
303 00:30:31.080 ⇒ 00:30:32.109 Justin Breshears: of ours.
304 00:30:32.110 ⇒ 00:30:34.449 Uttam Kumaran: Which is really efficient. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it’s really efficient.
305 00:30:34.450 ⇒ 00:30:41.570 Justin Breshears: like, 30 minutes to review of Loom, which can be, like, a lower-level person, like, that shouldn’t be your time.
306 00:30:41.720 ⇒ 00:30:55.149 Justin Breshears: And then the one-hour in-depth technical interview, hey, show me, you know, what you do with this data set, kind of a thing, and then a 30-minute presentation. That should be all it is.
307 00:30:55.410 ⇒ 00:31:03.260 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah. I mean, this is the thing, like, I don’t… I actually don’t expect a lot of people to make it, so the wider I can make
308 00:31:03.560 ⇒ 00:31:04.600 Uttam Kumaran: the net.
309 00:31:05.100 ⇒ 00:31:08.309 Uttam Kumaran: the better in this situation, so it has to be very lean.
310 00:31:08.630 ⇒ 00:31:13.630 Justin Breshears: Yep. And that, like, you should have a high fail rate from the loom to the second round.
311 00:31:13.880 ⇒ 00:31:16.709 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, very low pass rate on that.
312 00:31:16.820 ⇒ 00:31:23.689 Justin Breshears: And a maybe larger pass rate, but not much larger pass rate from second to panel.
313 00:31:24.520 ⇒ 00:31:25.880 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I agree.
314 00:31:30.030 ⇒ 00:31:30.750 Justin Breshears: Nope.
315 00:31:31.530 ⇒ 00:31:33.409 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, so that’s… that’s kind of, like, what I…
316 00:31:33.410 ⇒ 00:31:34.060 Justin Breshears: Yeah, true.
317 00:31:35.490 ⇒ 00:31:38.429 Uttam Kumaran: No, I mean, that’s… this is where, like, I think we’re…
318 00:31:38.960 ⇒ 00:31:46.959 Uttam Kumaran: we just have to innovate on, like, how recruiting typically happens. Like, typically recruiting is so painful, and there’s, like, 10 rounds, and, like, everybody’s…
319 00:31:47.090 ⇒ 00:31:47.470 Justin Breshears: Yeah.
320 00:31:47.470 ⇒ 00:31:53.700 Uttam Kumaran: Like, I had everybody read a little book on… and we have a little bit of a process on how we’re gonna…
321 00:31:54.110 ⇒ 00:31:57.270 Uttam Kumaran: How we try to just create consistency in our process.
322 00:31:57.400 ⇒ 00:32:02.040 Uttam Kumaran: And… Do a little bit of a committee, but this one’s gonna be a little bit harder, but…
323 00:32:02.390 ⇒ 00:32:09.390 Uttam Kumaran: It’s okay, everybody… gotten everybody that’s here now through all types of weird ways, so I feel like…
324 00:32:09.850 ⇒ 00:32:13.249 Justin Breshears: Well, I mean, you don’t have a dedicated talent team, so…
325 00:32:13.760 ⇒ 00:32:14.350 Uttam Kumaran: I know.
326 00:32:14.350 ⇒ 00:32:18.740 Justin Breshears: disadvantage from, like, another firm that has that, you know, so… I mean, you do have to, like.
327 00:32:18.740 ⇒ 00:32:25.359 Uttam Kumaran: I’m glad… I’m glad you see that as an advantage, like, I don’t… well, I just… well, I guess, like, I don’t see it… I see it more of, like.
328 00:32:25.690 ⇒ 00:32:30.549 Uttam Kumaran: look, if you meet me, or if, like, I reach out to you, like, the odds are really good, you know?
329 00:32:30.830 ⇒ 00:32:34.329 Justin Breshears: Yeah. It’s like, people care, and you see that we care.
330 00:32:34.690 ⇒ 00:32:42.629 Uttam Kumaran: And also, like, I don’t know, if I see a company that’s, like, send a lumen, that’s actually way lower friction on a call with somebody.
331 00:32:44.420 ⇒ 00:32:55.319 Justin Breshears: Yeah, people have mixed feelings about that stuff. I’ve done AI interviews before, and I have a lot of mixed feelings about that, but Illum’s not that bad.
332 00:32:55.980 ⇒ 00:32:56.700 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
333 00:32:57.250 ⇒ 00:33:12.339 Justin Breshears: But yeah, I think we have to be very strategic about our time as interviewers, because if you think about it, you want to have a very low pass rate for this position, right? So, in order to get one higher, you’re probably going to have to interview… what?
334 00:33:13.110 ⇒ 00:33:18.190 Uttam Kumaran: And we went… we had a… we had about, like, 50 to 60 looms for the… for the PM role come in.
335 00:33:18.610 ⇒ 00:33:28.799 Justin Breshears: So you got 50 people that you gotta run through the top of the funnel to spit out one, right? So… and it may be even lower than that in this position, because it’s such a unicorn position, so…
336 00:33:28.970 ⇒ 00:33:38.190 Justin Breshears: But let’s call it 50 people to run through the funnel. I mean, that’s 25 hours of Loom reviewing time, another 50 hours of second round time.
337 00:33:39.590 ⇒ 00:33:42.810 Justin Breshears: Like, so you gotta kinda look at it as a numbers game, just like sales.
338 00:33:42.810 ⇒ 00:33:43.889 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, yeah.
339 00:33:43.890 ⇒ 00:33:45.740 Justin Breshears: Sales and recruiting are very linked.
340 00:33:46.290 ⇒ 00:33:48.149 Uttam Kumaran: I think so, too, like, I mean…
341 00:33:48.380 ⇒ 00:33:57.570 Uttam Kumaran: I like selling our company, because I really believe in what we do, but it’s very similar to how, like, I do talk about our team as much as I can in our sales process, too, but…
342 00:33:57.740 ⇒ 00:34:00.939 Uttam Kumaran: Clients… some clients tend to not really give a shit, so…
343 00:34:01.400 ⇒ 00:34:02.150 Justin Breshears: Yeah.
344 00:34:02.470 ⇒ 00:34:03.380 Justin Breshears: But that’s…
345 00:34:03.720 ⇒ 00:34:19.409 Justin Breshears: I think recruiting is gonna be the single most important thing that you do to grow the business, because the people that you bring on are gonna have a massively greater proportion of impact on your size business than a…
346 00:34:19.719 ⇒ 00:34:21.530 Justin Breshears: Accenture or Deloitte.
347 00:34:21.739 ⇒ 00:34:23.099 Uttam Kumaran: Definitely, yeah.
348 00:34:23.100 ⇒ 00:34:23.920 Justin Breshears: Turn people out.
349 00:34:23.920 ⇒ 00:34:24.630 Uttam Kumaran: break.
350 00:34:24.630 ⇒ 00:34:25.190 Justin Breshears: Yeah.
351 00:34:25.199 ⇒ 00:34:25.979 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
352 00:34:25.980 ⇒ 00:34:33.910 Justin Breshears: But we… yeah, we’re gonna make or break, you know, large percentages of our revenue based on who we bring onto these accounts, so…
353 00:34:34.610 ⇒ 00:34:36.630 Justin Breshears: We gotta be very picky.
354 00:34:37.330 ⇒ 00:34:51.459 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, and that’s, so I’m talking to some people, and I’m getting lined up with some more people. I’m sort of figuring out, okay, like, what is the pitch to someone that’s, like, an engineer, or a PM, or, like, sort of already in a strategist role, like…
355 00:34:52.250 ⇒ 00:35:01.819 Uttam Kumaran: I think part of it is for any smart, like, have you going to somewhere where there is a little bit variable comp, and they could take part of that is good.
356 00:35:02.020 ⇒ 00:35:03.449 Uttam Kumaran: I also think…
357 00:35:03.990 ⇒ 00:35:14.630 Uttam Kumaran: for people that are in engineering, who, like, have a commercial sense, like a past version of me, I think this is a secure way to break, because it’s very hard to get out of the engineering ladder.
358 00:35:14.790 ⇒ 00:35:27.500 Uttam Kumaran: You really don’t get considered for business rules or project… like, the only reason… the way I transitioned to product was because we had a role to fill internally, and I raised my hand
359 00:35:27.890 ⇒ 00:35:34.630 Uttam Kumaran: But otherwise, like, there’s no way to that track, and so… I feel like… No.
360 00:35:34.630 ⇒ 00:35:35.019 Justin Breshears: It’s only…
361 00:35:35.360 ⇒ 00:35:45.839 Justin Breshears: your biggest seller for the company, because the smaller the company, the greater the opportunity is for growth, so you’re gonna need some people that have, like, ownership mentalities and growth mindsets.
362 00:35:46.760 ⇒ 00:35:47.520 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
363 00:35:52.340 ⇒ 00:35:56.410 Uttam Kumaran: Okay, cool. Well, I hogged up some time, that was my topic, virtually.
364 00:35:56.690 ⇒ 00:36:04.070 Justin Breshears: It’s good. It’s all good stuff. I mean, I feel like we just get into it, and then have some good conversations along the way, so…
365 00:36:04.450 ⇒ 00:36:11.649 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I’m meeting… I met with a friend this morning, I’m meeting with another friend later to kind of get their take on the strategy. Both are, like.
366 00:36:11.770 ⇒ 00:36:15.580 Uttam Kumaran: X Accenture, like, Big Four folks, just to get a sense of, like.
367 00:36:16.860 ⇒ 00:36:22.240 Uttam Kumaran: Really, it’s like, I… I’m like, if you were to take it, what would you think? And so I couldn’t get their opinion on stuff.
368 00:36:23.590 ⇒ 00:36:24.010 Justin Breshears: Heck yeah.
369 00:36:24.010 ⇒ 00:36:25.710 Uttam Kumaran: I guess we’ll have.
370 00:36:25.980 ⇒ 00:36:33.190 Uttam Kumaran: And then I… if… I sell them on it, and then I’m like, okay, so tell me anybody in your network that you think could do this. Right.
371 00:36:33.620 ⇒ 00:36:35.210 Uttam Kumaran: So…
372 00:36:35.480 ⇒ 00:36:39.789 Justin Breshears: So, one topic that I had is not necessarily, like.
373 00:36:40.320 ⇒ 00:36:48.449 Justin Breshears: business-related, but something I wanted to talk to you about, so, back before, like.
374 00:36:48.630 ⇒ 00:37:01.369 Justin Breshears: Yeah, like, when I was still with Kalent, you know, obviously I’ve been job searching for a while, because things at Kalent have been, like, pretty toxic, and I kind of saw the writing on the wall, with a lot of things, so…
375 00:37:01.560 ⇒ 00:37:10.010 Justin Breshears: I’ve been job searching for a while, and I’ve been interviewing with, Credera, another consulting firm, maybe you’ve heard of it, I don’t know.
376 00:37:10.250 ⇒ 00:37:10.680 Uttam Kumaran: -
377 00:37:11.670 ⇒ 00:37:20.470 Justin Breshears: But, so Like, their process has just been really slow, so it’s been, like, maybe…
378 00:37:20.780 ⇒ 00:37:28.710 Justin Breshears: maybe, like, 2 months or something that I’ve just been, like, randomly interviewing with them. But…
379 00:37:29.430 ⇒ 00:37:34.760 Justin Breshears: They basically, like, told me, like, an offer is imminent.
380 00:37:35.650 ⇒ 00:37:46.980 Justin Breshears: And I wanted to, one, in the sake of just being, like, transparent and talking to you about it, I wanted to talk to you about it because I don’t know, like, where you’re at on…
381 00:37:47.430 ⇒ 00:37:59.019 Justin Breshears: So I know, like, bringing me on full-time was, like, faster than you wanted to, cost-wise. And I know I’ve kind of sat in on some of the financial calls and things like that this week.
382 00:38:00.010 ⇒ 00:38:02.289 Justin Breshears: I didn’t… I wanted to ask you…
383 00:38:02.680 ⇒ 00:38:06.000 Justin Breshears: Let’s say they come back with just an amazing offer that works out.
384 00:38:08.060 ⇒ 00:38:17.300 Justin Breshears: Would it be almost, like, a benefit to go back to, like, a part-time situation for, like, Brain Forge.
385 00:38:17.970 ⇒ 00:38:25.099 Justin Breshears: Cost-wise, continue to, like, add what value I can, but end up backing up part-time, like, more like we were.
386 00:38:25.400 ⇒ 00:38:32.770 Justin Breshears: And use, like, that other position as, like, that kind of gets me financially where I need to be.
387 00:38:32.950 ⇒ 00:38:37.499 Justin Breshears: So, obviously, you know my situation, I’m living pretty close to the edge. Yeah.
388 00:38:38.000 ⇒ 00:38:44.969 Justin Breshears: And, you know, maybe, like, Because here’s the thing, I still love Brainforge, and, like, want to…
389 00:38:45.150 ⇒ 00:38:50.690 Justin Breshears: Like, jump in full-time, but… Just the financial piece, to be honest, is just, like, really…
390 00:38:50.810 ⇒ 00:39:02.560 Justin Breshears: scaring me, as a man who has to provide for his whole family, right? So, I wanted to bring it up to you, one, in the sake of transparency, don’t want to blindside you with anything,
391 00:39:03.010 ⇒ 00:39:10.470 Justin Breshears: But I also want to see, like, would that maybe be, like, more beneficial for both parties, since it would give Brainforge a little bit of time to…
392 00:39:10.620 ⇒ 00:39:18.190 Justin Breshears: Build up some revenue, like, more, like, in line with the original timeline of you, like, wanting to bring this person on in this role full-time.
393 00:39:18.550 ⇒ 00:39:20.259 Justin Breshears: Just wanna get your thoughts on that.
394 00:39:21.090 ⇒ 00:39:25.559 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I mean, I think my initial thoughts are…
395 00:39:26.870 ⇒ 00:39:36.379 Uttam Kumaran: both with… with Shreya and leaving, and we’re not gonna backfill Justina, probably, because we just have internal resources, like, that frees up money.
396 00:39:38.530 ⇒ 00:39:40.139 Uttam Kumaran: like, I would…
397 00:39:40.830 ⇒ 00:39:50.999 Uttam Kumaran: I mean, personally, I think you… it would be kind of a question back to you on, like, one, do you think that you could even do this type of job part-time effectively?
398 00:39:52.800 ⇒ 00:39:54.910 Justin Breshears: Not as is, that’s for sure, because, like.
399 00:39:54.910 ⇒ 00:39:55.500 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
400 00:39:55.500 ⇒ 00:40:00.980 Justin Breshears: even, like, the past, like, however long it’s been since I left Kalent, I’ve been working more than part-time.
401 00:40:01.220 ⇒ 00:40:01.820 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
402 00:40:01.820 ⇒ 00:40:05.019 Justin Breshears: I’ve been working a lot of hours to try and do everything.
403 00:40:05.020 ⇒ 00:40:08.530 Uttam Kumaran: But… so then my second question would be, like, what…
404 00:40:08.870 ⇒ 00:40:13.609 Uttam Kumaran: you know, I know we agreed on, sort of, like, the current offer, but what do you think
405 00:40:14.150 ⇒ 00:40:15.929 Uttam Kumaran: Do you feel more…
406 00:40:17.820 ⇒ 00:40:24.480 Uttam Kumaran: safe or more whole here? And, like, give us a counter that I can sort of work.
407 00:40:24.900 ⇒ 00:40:25.330 Justin Breshears: Yeah. Work on.
408 00:40:25.330 ⇒ 00:40:28.180 Uttam Kumaran: Whether it’s terms or whatever it is.
409 00:40:28.180 ⇒ 00:40:42.380 Justin Breshears: I really… I didn’t bring this up to, like, negotiate or, like, a better offer or whatever, like, that wasn’t my goal. I’m legitimately just, like, trying to be completely transparent with you, because that’s just who I am, and that’s what I’ve decided to be.
410 00:40:43.610 ⇒ 00:40:46.529 Justin Breshears: I… it really wasn’t about that, but, like.
411 00:40:47.380 ⇒ 00:40:52.419 Justin Breshears: you know, back when I started interviewing with them, like, a couple months ago, you know, I told them, like.
412 00:40:52.750 ⇒ 00:41:03.410 Justin Breshears: oh, 200 is, like, what would make me switch. Yeah. They’re like, okay, like, that’s in line. So it’s like, kind of that kind of offer is why…
413 00:41:03.610 ⇒ 00:41:06.810 Justin Breshears: You know, it’s something that I can’t just, like, not consider, you know?
414 00:41:07.070 ⇒ 00:41:07.670 Uttam Kumaran: That’s fair.
415 00:41:08.290 ⇒ 00:41:09.959 Uttam Kumaran: I mean, you know it’s like…
416 00:41:10.440 ⇒ 00:41:12.700 Uttam Kumaran: I’m not gonna be able to compete with,
417 00:41:12.700 ⇒ 00:41:13.590 Justin Breshears: Yeah, yeah.
418 00:41:13.590 ⇒ 00:41:15.740 Uttam Kumaran: The biggest companies in the world, and…
419 00:41:15.740 ⇒ 00:41:21.589 Justin Breshears: There’s a lot of pros to this job over that job. One, they want me in the office 3 days a week, which…
420 00:41:21.590 ⇒ 00:41:24.840 Uttam Kumaran: I haven’t been in an office since 2019, and…
421 00:41:25.540 ⇒ 00:41:38.030 Justin Breshears: I worked in-office corporate job. I worked a total of 9 months in my career. The rest of my jobs have been, like, either outfield, outside, or remote, you know?
422 00:41:38.030 ⇒ 00:41:38.720 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
423 00:41:40.700 ⇒ 00:42:00.240 Justin Breshears: So, like, yeah, I don’t… there’s, like, a lot of cons to a situation like that. So, like, it’s not just, like, a money thing. Like, the setup at Brainforge and the opportunity here is, like, what really excites me. Like, I… I really like what y’all have built, and, like, really am excited about the role. So, like, it’s not just, like, a numbers, like, it has to be apples to apples kind of a thing.
424 00:42:00.600 ⇒ 00:42:11.920 Justin Breshears: But I’m trying to just, like, balance that between, you know, what I see as, like, hey, Brainforge could be, like, long-term where I would be happiest,
425 00:42:12.780 ⇒ 00:42:13.950 Justin Breshears: But, like…
426 00:42:15.520 ⇒ 00:42:23.460 Justin Breshears: I mean, I might as well just, like, be honest, because, I mean, I had to ask you for mortgage money this month, like, my finances are not in a great spot.
427 00:42:23.830 ⇒ 00:42:24.390 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
428 00:42:24.390 ⇒ 00:42:27.129 Justin Breshears: That’s the pressure that I’m feeling right now, on that.
429 00:42:28.100 ⇒ 00:42:33.180 Uttam Kumaran: I guess, you know, my take would be, there are… like…
430 00:42:33.370 ⇒ 00:42:41.000 Uttam Kumaran: We’re… as a company, like, as I mentioned, like, if we were to stop All of our, like.
431 00:42:41.320 ⇒ 00:42:43.530 Uttam Kumaran: Things that we’re using to grow.
432 00:42:43.720 ⇒ 00:42:57.529 Uttam Kumaran: we would be, like, really in the money. So we’re sort of, like, self-inflicting this, like, tight cash situation, because we’re trying to be the best. Like, we’ve made investments into AI, we’ve made investments into our sales.
433 00:42:57.670 ⇒ 00:43:07.820 Uttam Kumaran: I, you know, we’ve also made plenty of mistakes, but we’re ambitious. Like, we spent our way to get this far in 2 years.
434 00:43:07.970 ⇒ 00:43:09.640 Justin Breshears: But given, like.
435 00:43:09.800 ⇒ 00:43:26.250 Uttam Kumaran: I think you are the right person for this role, and I think, like, having you full-time would be very effective for us. There are other things that are not a good use of money that prioritize your confidence in us over that.
436 00:43:26.850 ⇒ 00:43:33.919 Uttam Kumaran: what that is right now, like, I don’t think it’s… I don’t think it’s… but I think more relevant is, like, I think…
437 00:43:34.060 ⇒ 00:43:44.440 Uttam Kumaran: I want to do whatever I can to have you full-time here and now. Like, I… I think I’m… I’m more than confident with that. Like, it would be a huge…
438 00:43:44.860 ⇒ 00:44:03.000 Uttam Kumaran: I mean, I guess for me, the risk would be, one, you go there, and then, yeah, you… you are part-time here, but take that, or it doesn’t work out, or you want to stay there for… like, it’s a… it’s a huge risk for us. Second, like, I could come up with the money. We spend in a lot of other areas, so I’m… I’m confident that
439 00:44:03.050 ⇒ 00:44:11.350 Uttam Kumaran: can get you where you need to be, but also, what would be helpful to me is, don’t tell me the bare minimum, like, tell me, give me a sense of, like.
440 00:44:11.370 ⇒ 00:44:27.720 Uttam Kumaran: where you want to be, where you would feel comfortable, and everything’s in negotiation, so… I will tell… I’m gonna fight for the company, which you are also part of, like, every dollar the company makes is dollars, so I… that’s what I’m fighting on behalf.
441 00:44:28.060 ⇒ 00:44:30.020 Justin Breshears: be really honest, like, I want…
442 00:44:30.020 ⇒ 00:44:47.640 Uttam Kumaran: you to be here full-time, and I don’t want you to be thinking daily about Cash Crunch. So, like, there are things that we’re planning to, or we invested in now, that I can certainly slim down and make it so that you feel whole. I mean, of course, like.
443 00:44:47.990 ⇒ 00:45:04.339 Uttam Kumaran: I think you… I’m happy to… I think you have access to it, and you’re seeing the trajectory of the business. We’re not very far away from additional, like, 10, 20, 30K in monthly recurring revenue, and in renewing and upselling current deals, of which you get a piece of, so…
444 00:45:04.830 ⇒ 00:45:09.669 Uttam Kumaran: I don’t think we’re, like… I don’t know, but again, it’s… this is just… this is sort of the…
445 00:45:09.980 ⇒ 00:45:13.009 Uttam Kumaran: this is what I have to face. Look, it’s…
446 00:45:13.180 ⇒ 00:45:16.070 Uttam Kumaran: I get… I get where you’re coming from, and… and…
447 00:45:16.740 ⇒ 00:45:22.629 Uttam Kumaran: I, you know, I was making that type of money, I get it, it’s really tough, and I can only sell what I can…
448 00:45:22.860 ⇒ 00:45:25.430 Uttam Kumaran: what I… what I know about our business, you know, but…
449 00:45:25.430 ⇒ 00:45:25.900 Justin Breshears: Yeah.
450 00:45:25.900 ⇒ 00:45:26.280 Uttam Kumaran: fun.
451 00:45:26.280 ⇒ 00:45:31.440 Justin Breshears: And I’m with you on that, like, I… Yeah, I, like, I…
452 00:45:31.440 ⇒ 00:45:33.259 Uttam Kumaran: But, I know, I’m… that’s not…
453 00:45:33.540 ⇒ 00:45:42.000 Justin Breshears: remote, what you’re doing at Brainforge, like, that’s where I want to go. Like, I want to be here, I want to do this, because this job is fun, like…
454 00:45:42.270 ⇒ 00:45:43.479 Justin Breshears: Man, like, I…
455 00:45:43.630 ⇒ 00:45:52.280 Justin Breshears: I’m scratching a creative, like, problem-solving part of my brain that I haven’t scratched in a few years, because I just haven’t been given the opportunity, right?
456 00:45:53.110 ⇒ 00:46:01.959 Justin Breshears: But, yeah, like, I’m just trying to… to make sure that, you know, I can support my family. And so, the… if you ask me, like, the specifics of, like, what would make me feel comfortable, like, so… Sure.
457 00:46:02.790 ⇒ 00:46:15.059 Justin Breshears: you know, I obviously told you, like, what I made before, and that was with benefits, being at, like, a 160 base, you know, and then up to, like, 180 variable, with benefits. So, like.
458 00:46:15.780 ⇒ 00:46:20.639 Justin Breshears: the thing about, like, just, like, going down to a 130, like, yeah, there’s variable comp in there, but, like.
459 00:46:21.780 ⇒ 00:46:34.579 Justin Breshears: how many of those contracts are even, like, up for renewal in the next few months, right? Like, that’s gonna take a bit of a time to start rolling in, right? Sure. So when I was talking to my wife about it, like, I’m like, Brainforge is awesome, like, I don’t want to be here, but, like.
460 00:46:34.680 ⇒ 00:46:46.909 Justin Breshears: we’re gonna have to hunker down for a few months. Like, I’m thinking maybe, like, 6 months before, like, any kind of, like, real variable that kicks in past the point where even I was before, right? So…
461 00:46:47.920 ⇒ 00:46:59.560 Justin Breshears: that’s kind of where my head’s at, is, like, the… the base is definitely without benefits, like, I’m looking at, like, you know, 18K-ish for health insurance, like…
462 00:46:59.720 ⇒ 00:47:02.020 Justin Breshears: Like, a year.
463 00:47:02.020 ⇒ 00:47:02.670 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
464 00:47:02.670 ⇒ 00:47:16.100 Justin Breshears: you know, like, stuff like that. So, like, the base really without benefits plays, like, closer to 100, which is, like, that’s a significant drop in, like, you know, what we had before, and I wasn’t exactly crushing it before, so, financially, so…
465 00:47:18.260 ⇒ 00:47:33.640 Justin Breshears: Yeah, that’s just… I… I just… again, I want to be, like, upfront about where I’m at. I want… I want Brainforge to work out, because, like, I really don’t want to go in 3 days a week to the office in this, like… I already know what environment that is. I just left that environment, and Kaylin, like, I know how those…
466 00:47:33.930 ⇒ 00:47:40.010 Justin Breshears: That… Credera’s a little bit bigger, but… That’s honestly probably worse than…
467 00:47:40.010 ⇒ 00:47:40.730 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
468 00:47:40.950 ⇒ 00:47:49.349 Justin Breshears: These bigger consulting firms, like, can really suck the life out of you. It’s more online with, like, an Accenture Slalom-type thing.
469 00:47:49.350 ⇒ 00:47:50.420 Uttam Kumaran: Place. Yeah.
470 00:47:50.420 ⇒ 00:47:55.210 Justin Breshears: Probably culturally, so… That…
471 00:47:55.210 ⇒ 00:48:01.240 Uttam Kumaran: If I got you kind of closer to 160… base…
472 00:48:02.200 ⇒ 00:48:05.720 Uttam Kumaran: With everything else kind of the same, like, what would… how would you feel?
473 00:48:05.720 ⇒ 00:48:08.840 Justin Breshears: I mean, that would be definitely a lot better, for sure.
474 00:48:08.840 ⇒ 00:48:09.889 Uttam Kumaran: Okay. Okay.
475 00:48:10.240 ⇒ 00:48:14.579 Justin Breshears: I mean, and again, like, I did not come into this conversation and try and squeeze more dollars.
476 00:48:14.580 ⇒ 00:48:27.880 Uttam Kumaran: No, no, no, no, I’m not… I’m not taking… I’m not… I’m not taking it that way, but I also know that, like, just like everything at this company, it’s very unorthodox. Yeah. So, like, that is not gonna change about… like, we didn’t make it…
477 00:48:27.990 ⇒ 00:48:35.829 Uttam Kumaran: this far without, sort of, like, doing things a unique way, and it’s… someone told me that about even our
478 00:48:36.000 ⇒ 00:48:47.900 Uttam Kumaran: we had a partnerships meeting where I was talking about, like, all the events and stuff we’ve done, and we sort of built our whole marketing with, like, zero dollars, and then Holly on our team, who’s new, she’s like.
479 00:48:48.060 ⇒ 00:48:59.910 Uttam Kumaran: you know, this is, like, completely not orthodox, like, no one’s ever… what happens, and I said, I don’t really know what happens, typically, but I just know that we go, and…
480 00:48:59.910 ⇒ 00:49:12.830 Uttam Kumaran: I totally understand. I know this is not, like, a typical employer-employee conversation, but let me… let me… let me talk to Robert today. The other things that, to give you a sense of, like, why I’m more flexible now is…
481 00:49:13.090 ⇒ 00:49:20.720 Uttam Kumaran: with Justina no longer being here, we’re kind of moving Shrey out. I also want to see, like.
482 00:49:20.880 ⇒ 00:49:28.909 Uttam Kumaran: this is why I want to do the allocation meeting, to truly find out, do we need to go externally to get additional resources, or can we service
483 00:49:29.580 ⇒ 00:49:30.530 Uttam Kumaran: Next.
484 00:49:30.820 ⇒ 00:49:34.999 Uttam Kumaran: So we service the existing $100K in monthly revenue.
485 00:49:35.210 ⇒ 00:49:43.869 Uttam Kumaran: for, you know, whatever our… or whatever our margins are. If I can get… be confident in that, then I’m happy to make
486 00:49:44.310 ⇒ 00:49:50.390 Uttam Kumaran: I… I feel really good at that. That’s what I need to start to… I need to really have a good understanding on, is, like, what our…
487 00:49:50.700 ⇒ 00:49:58.699 Uttam Kumaran: What our ultimate, like, capacity is, but given that those changes happen, and we’re not planning on bringing in
488 00:49:58.980 ⇒ 00:50:00.879 Uttam Kumaran: Any additional non…
489 00:50:01.300 ⇒ 00:50:07.909 Uttam Kumaran: We’re kind of making two changes. One, I’m not planning on bringing in any non-delivery-related resources, and second.
490 00:50:08.260 ⇒ 00:50:13.949 Uttam Kumaran: putting further caps on internal work, I feel comfortable moving to something like that.
491 00:50:14.090 ⇒ 00:50:15.610 Justin Breshears: Okay. Let me call…
492 00:50:15.610 ⇒ 00:50:19.710 Uttam Kumaran: Let me talk to… Let me give Robert a call today.
493 00:50:19.880 ⇒ 00:50:20.810 Justin Breshears: Correct. And…
494 00:50:20.810 ⇒ 00:50:24.959 Uttam Kumaran: see what we can do, and I’d love to… I just want… I think we…
495 00:50:25.160 ⇒ 00:50:42.960 Uttam Kumaran: here, and I really think you’re gonna make more than 200 grand here. I think you’re gonna make quite a bit more money here in the long run, and, like, I want to show you that, you know, and I want you to be locked in so that, like, we can go get this money together, you know? I feel really, really confident about that.
496 00:50:43.680 ⇒ 00:51:01.510 Justin Breshears: Yeah, I’m with you there. I see it. I see the way that it can get there, and all that, so I want to try and make it work out. So I appreciate that. Thank you for… to be honest, I wouldn’t even ever have this conversation with another employer that I’ve had, because I’d be.
497 00:51:01.510 ⇒ 00:51:06.800 Uttam Kumaran: I’m not… I’m not much of a, like, I don’t know, I’m not, like, your typical, like.
498 00:51:06.800 ⇒ 00:51:11.959 Justin Breshears: Yeah, I mean, I’d be afraid of getting fired on the spot if I had a conversation like this with anybody else.
499 00:51:11.960 ⇒ 00:51:15.460 Uttam Kumaran: No, that’s… that sucks, that’s what sucks about companies, dude, like…
500 00:51:15.460 ⇒ 00:51:16.020 Justin Breshears: Yeah.
501 00:51:16.020 ⇒ 00:51:35.909 Uttam Kumaran: what? Like, why? I don’t know, I was never, like… In fact, I also… I was similar to you. I had a lot of fear, especially when it comes to money. I decided in my company I’m not gonna have that. Like, I’m very open. We’ve… we’ve helped a lot of people where we can, even in personal issues and whatever, and… and, like, we’ll continue to do that. Like, this is a…
502 00:51:36.300 ⇒ 00:51:49.190 Uttam Kumaran: this is a business built on people, like, I… there’s no, like… and that’s also what I learned, it’s just… the rules are made by other people, like, there… there are certain rules that you don’t have to follow, you don’t have to be, sort of, like,
503 00:51:49.880 ⇒ 00:51:54.060 Uttam Kumaran: a hard-nosed businessman. Like, this is not that type of business, so…
504 00:51:54.200 ⇒ 00:52:07.989 Uttam Kumaran: everything is a negotiation, though, and again, like, what I want to be clear is everything’s a negotiation, and I plug for the company, and so it’s my duty to guard the company money as much as I can, but I’m also very open
505 00:52:08.270 ⇒ 00:52:12.999 Uttam Kumaran: With why we’re doing that, and… And, again, there are…
506 00:52:13.290 ⇒ 00:52:19.199 Uttam Kumaran: there are more strings we can pull to make it, but I do think at this point, I would… we really need you…
507 00:52:19.430 ⇒ 00:52:23.419 Uttam Kumaran: Here, locked in, in order to get to the next… The next milestone.
508 00:52:24.640 ⇒ 00:52:26.889 Justin Breshears: Yeah, I… I agree. I…
509 00:52:27.160 ⇒ 00:52:33.529 Justin Breshears: no matter what happens in the meantime, like, I’m gonna continue work, like, full-time. I’ve pretty much been doing that.
510 00:52:33.830 ⇒ 00:52:37.020 Justin Breshears: And we’ll… we can figure that stuff out,
511 00:52:37.880 ⇒ 00:52:47.130 Justin Breshears: But, yeah, I mean, I’ll see if, like, they end up offering me and, you know, kind of just talk with my wife and see what we want to do, but,
512 00:52:47.420 ⇒ 00:52:56.280 Justin Breshears: you know, I definitely think that, like, bringing the base up would go a long way, because then that’s, like… it’s just a cash flow thing, just like the business, like…
513 00:52:56.280 ⇒ 00:52:56.770 Uttam Kumaran: Yes.
514 00:52:56.770 ⇒ 00:53:02.429 Justin Breshears: You know, you deal with that on a monthly basis with the business as a whole, right? My family is my business, so…
515 00:53:02.640 ⇒ 00:53:05.440 Justin Breshears: I gotta do the same thing with, like, cash flow, so…
516 00:53:05.440 ⇒ 00:53:06.000 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
517 00:53:07.030 ⇒ 00:53:07.670 Uttam Kumaran: Okay.
518 00:53:08.030 ⇒ 00:53:17.289 Justin Breshears: Yeah, and just, like, knowing that there’s, like, a horizon, or something on the horizon for, like, benefits, like, health insurance down the line would be helpful, too.
519 00:53:17.680 ⇒ 00:53:24.730 Uttam Kumaran: So that’s my… my Q4 OKR, guys, a plan on… on executing that by Q1.
520 00:53:24.870 ⇒ 00:53:27.890 Justin Breshears: Oh, great, but that’s a very slick timeline.
521 00:53:28.440 ⇒ 00:53:32.379 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, that’s what we’re… I’ve already started talking to finance about it, where
522 00:53:32.530 ⇒ 00:53:39.979 Uttam Kumaran: like, PEOs and stuff like that, so… that should all get sorted by… by Q1, and by the end of this quarter, I’ll have, like, all the plans.
523 00:53:40.450 ⇒ 00:53:41.000 Uttam Kumaran: Okay.
524 00:53:41.470 ⇒ 00:53:41.990 Justin Breshears: Wow.
525 00:53:41.990 ⇒ 00:53:58.660 Uttam Kumaran: And then, yeah, again, I think we’re gonna… we’re mainly just… again, it’s all U.S.-based. We’re gonna offer it to every… the people who are… who we see as gonna be long-term in the U.S, like, that’s who we’ll offer it to, so you’ll be on a list at the Gamber, and Hannah both inquired about it as well, so…
526 00:53:59.200 ⇒ 00:53:59.820 Justin Breshears: Cool.
527 00:54:00.710 ⇒ 00:54:06.459 Justin Breshears: Okay, I appreciate you, I respect you, and I appreciate you letting me…
528 00:54:06.570 ⇒ 00:54:09.490 Justin Breshears: Just… be open about it.
529 00:54:09.730 ⇒ 00:54:10.490 Uttam Kumaran: No problem.
530 00:54:10.490 ⇒ 00:54:11.839 Justin Breshears: I’m gonna continue to, like.
531 00:54:11.980 ⇒ 00:54:16.470 Justin Breshears: Just be locked in for you, no matter, you know, what for the main, you know.
532 00:54:16.470 ⇒ 00:54:31.749 Uttam Kumaran: No, and dude, I always say this, but, like, I think there’s a lot of money to be made in a business like ours, and you know it, and you know that other people are making way more money with the first product, and with way less care, so that’s always what I believed in.
533 00:54:31.950 ⇒ 00:54:36.619 Uttam Kumaran: I just wanted this to be a place where we overcompensate the best people.
534 00:54:36.880 ⇒ 00:54:42.510 Uttam Kumaran: You know, not in… in order… in order to make sure that they feel like they want to be here, and that they push.
535 00:54:42.630 ⇒ 00:54:49.320 Uttam Kumaran: their goals, and… you know, I think it’s something that we’re pushing towards, and…
536 00:54:49.730 ⇒ 00:54:59.219 Uttam Kumaran: as fast as we can get there, we’re gonna get. You can see I’m just, like… it’s all just all gas on this side, but I also understand everybody has personal situations, so it’s…
537 00:54:59.430 ⇒ 00:55:01.170 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah. Yeah.
538 00:55:01.170 ⇒ 00:55:01.680 Justin Breshears: Makes sense.
539 00:55:02.200 ⇒ 00:55:09.469 Justin Breshears: Well, we can put a pin in it there, you know, you can talk to Robert and all that stuff, and then we can revisit that another time, but…
540 00:55:09.470 ⇒ 00:55:10.180 Uttam Kumaran: Perfect.
541 00:55:10.450 ⇒ 00:55:13.319 Justin Breshears: Anything else, like, you need from today to…
542 00:55:13.320 ⇒ 00:55:20.419 Uttam Kumaran: I think that’s it, yeah, if you get any more time to play around in operating, feel free, and I’m gonna try to…
543 00:55:20.690 ⇒ 00:55:21.969 Uttam Kumaran: I’m gonna try to, like.
544 00:55:22.380 ⇒ 00:55:29.029 Uttam Kumaran: get all the details in there, and try to get that locked down, and then so we can actually start reporting by Monday on things, so…
545 00:55:29.030 ⇒ 00:55:38.360 Justin Breshears: Yeah, I like the potential of that tool. The first time I really opened it was today on the call. But I like the potential of this tool, because it kind of combines a few things here, and I think…
546 00:55:38.600 ⇒ 00:55:54.809 Justin Breshears: time tracking will be one of the most crucial things for us, not only in just, like, reporting margin and profitability, but just, like, like you mentioned, figuring out headcount needs and where we need to go, so… Yeah. Excited to get that up and running. I’ll play around with it a little bit, and…
547 00:55:54.990 ⇒ 00:55:56.929 Justin Breshears: We can… we can get that locked in.
548 00:55:57.460 ⇒ 00:55:58.070 Uttam Kumaran: Okay.
549 00:55:58.610 ⇒ 00:56:00.820 Uttam Kumaran: Cool. Okay, perfect. Thanks, dude.
550 00:56:01.140 ⇒ 00:56:02.320 Justin Breshears: Thank you, sir.
551 00:56:02.320 ⇒ 00:56:03.350 Uttam Kumaran: I’ll talk to you soon.
552 00:56:03.350 ⇒ 00:56:03.870 Justin Breshears: Bye.