Meeting Title: Brainforge Project Manager Interview Date: 2025-09-12 Meeting participants: Danielle Van Pelt, Alexander Lubka, Uttam Kumaran
WEBVTT
1 00:02:19.620 ⇒ 00:02:20.990 Danielle Van Pelt: Okay, so that being
2 00:02:21.810 ⇒ 00:02:28.459 Danielle Van Pelt: I think probably a lot of our customers, Greg, especially some of our starting customers and larger clientele.
3 00:02:32.480 ⇒ 00:02:36.720 Danielle Van Pelt: PI data was very important in regards to that, so…
4 00:02:45.240 ⇒ 00:02:45.929 Danielle Van Pelt: No, I don’t
5 00:02:50.180 ⇒ 00:02:51.320 Danielle Van Pelt: Oh, no.
6 00:02:54.360 ⇒ 00:02:55.830 Danielle Van Pelt: Why insanity.
7 00:03:28.980 ⇒ 00:03:30.239 Alexander Lubka: Hey, good morning, Danielle.
8 00:03:30.420 ⇒ 00:03:31.560 Danielle Van Pelt: Good morning!
9 00:03:31.560 ⇒ 00:03:32.609 Alexander Lubka: How are ya?
10 00:03:32.610 ⇒ 00:03:36.529 Danielle Van Pelt: Doing good! Hanging in there! Glad it’s the weekend, almost, so…
11 00:03:37.710 ⇒ 00:03:40.280 Alexander Lubka: Good, glad to hear. I feel the same way.
12 00:03:40.280 ⇒ 00:03:46.060 Danielle Van Pelt: Yeah, even not having a job at the moment, I still feel that, so…
13 00:03:46.850 ⇒ 00:03:56.840 Uttam Kumaran: Same, yeah, that’s like, I feel like every day. I’m like, I would… some days, I’m like, I wish… I felt like on Tuesday, today, it was Friday, and I was like, oh, I forgot, like, right at the end.
14 00:03:59.720 ⇒ 00:04:03.199 Uttam Kumaran: Well, thanks for taking the time, Danielle, it’s really nice to meet you.
15 00:04:03.200 ⇒ 00:04:05.479 Danielle Van Pelt: Yeah, nice to meet you got both as well.
16 00:04:05.710 ⇒ 00:04:09.060 Alexander Lubka: Yeah, Utam, did you start your fall decorations? Is that what I see?
17 00:04:09.060 ⇒ 00:04:16.889 Uttam Kumaran: Yes, we are starting fall decorations, and then we’re gonna go do some… we’re gonna go do some more shopping for more decorations today.
18 00:04:17.060 ⇒ 00:04:19.000 Alexander Lubka: Even though it’s probably, like, 90 degrees there.
19 00:04:19.000 ⇒ 00:04:29.340 Uttam Kumaran: It is, yeah, well, actually, right now, it’s cool, but yeah, it will be, like, 90 later, so… Seasons are not about the weather here, it’s just about the feeling.
20 00:04:29.720 ⇒ 00:04:30.480 Alexander Lubka: I love the vibes.
21 00:04:30.910 ⇒ 00:04:36.539 Uttam Kumaran: It’s about 5, yeah, it’s been about 100 for, like, 8 months here, so I’m, like, done with it.
22 00:04:36.540 ⇒ 00:04:53.129 Danielle Van Pelt: Yeah, I feel that. That’s how North Carolina is. We’re very… the weather is, like, we have, like, 3 or 4 different switches between, like, spring to summer and fall to… or summer to fall, like, it’s ridiculous. But it’s actually really nice right now. It’s in the 70s.
23 00:04:53.300 ⇒ 00:04:54.170 Uttam Kumaran: Oh, great.
24 00:04:55.640 ⇒ 00:04:56.570 Danielle Van Pelt: Bye.
25 00:04:57.760 ⇒ 00:05:04.319 Uttam Kumaran: Cool, well, maybe, Alex, I can let you kind of maybe lead, but, Daniel, I’m sure you’ve… you’ve…
26 00:05:04.370 ⇒ 00:05:11.949 Uttam Kumaran: heard a little bit about our company, but maybe I’ll give, like, a little bit of a brief, introduction, and then me and Allison give introductions, we can start from there.
27 00:05:11.950 ⇒ 00:05:29.200 Uttam Kumaran: So Brainforge is a… is a company I started about 2 years ago. We started primarily as a data analytics consultancy. My background is in everything kind of data analytics, so, as a data engineer, leading data teams, leading product in a data company.
28 00:05:29.210 ⇒ 00:05:41.590 Uttam Kumaran: And I moved here from New York about 3 years ago to… here to Austin, and then about 2 years ago, started this business. It’s a completely bootstrap business, so I’ve slowly been building it up.
29 00:05:41.600 ⇒ 00:05:55.279 Uttam Kumaran: Kind of brick by brick. But very excited that, you know, we get to interview amazing candidates like you now, and we get to build a super strong team. So we’re about 15 people on any day.
30 00:05:55.280 ⇒ 00:06:09.700 Uttam Kumaran: And, you know, we are growing pretty quickly. We have a variety of clients, for which we do both, you know, data-related services, as well as, more recently, in the past, sort of year or so, AI-related services.
31 00:06:09.810 ⇒ 00:06:26.390 Uttam Kumaran: So, it’s a pretty young company, but kind of everything comes with a sense of urgency, but also, I would say the culture is more about, you know, delivering for the client, number one. And, you know, I’ve worked in a lot of, you know, sort of crazy startups, and this is not
32 00:06:26.540 ⇒ 00:06:35.659 Uttam Kumaran: what I would describe as one. I think for the most part, everybody in the company is pretty level-headed, and issues arise, but we just try to tackle them.
33 00:06:35.660 ⇒ 00:06:47.260 Uttam Kumaran: One step at a time. We have a variety of experiences on the team, from people that have worked in agencies to not folks that have been in industry for a while, folks that are, new, but…
34 00:06:47.650 ⇒ 00:06:56.710 Uttam Kumaran: really, the one thing that I tell our folks is that the client service and the client experience is number one, and so delivery is a huge, huge part of that.
35 00:06:56.810 ⇒ 00:07:00.760 Uttam Kumaran: Of course, we have sales, we have delivery, and so…
36 00:07:01.060 ⇒ 00:07:17.720 Uttam Kumaran: As soon as we sell a client and we’re able to get them on the hook and in the door, it really passes off to this team, you know, on how we plan towards their outcomes, how we achieve those, how we demonstrate that we achieve those, and then how we, you know, set, you know, the business up for expansion and renewal.
37 00:07:17.790 ⇒ 00:07:23.749 Uttam Kumaran: So that’s a little bit about the company. Maybe, Alex, I can let you give an intro, and then, yeah, we can take it from there.
38 00:07:24.160 ⇒ 00:07:30.250 Alexander Lubka: Sure. Nice to meet you, Danielle. I’ve been working with the company for about 4 months now in an advisory capacity. I work at a
39 00:07:30.720 ⇒ 00:07:41.970 Alexander Lubka: I do project management at a hedge fund during the day, and investment research technology, and I’ve been advising the PMO in building out a PMO here for the last couple months or so, working with
40 00:07:41.970 ⇒ 00:07:53.810 Alexander Lubka: Amber, who I think you met, to help with, you know, building out some of the processes, the documentation, you know, some training, and trying to mature that organization. Also trying to
41 00:07:53.810 ⇒ 00:08:07.569 Alexander Lubka: where, you know, also build out, you know, the initiation process for the projects, too, like Uten was talking about with sales delivery handoffs, and just making sure that they have the right ceremonies in place that make the most sense for the different types of projects that they have.
42 00:08:07.570 ⇒ 00:08:13.820 Alexander Lubka: How we can get ahead of just, like, managing, projects, how we can make sure we’re kind of managing in a,
43 00:08:13.820 ⇒ 00:08:30.390 Alexander Lubka: standard… standardized way for different types of projects, so it’s been really fun. Enjoy working with the team. It’s a good group. I second what Utam was saying about that, and it’s scrappy, but fun, and things change, and new projects come up all the time, so it’s been a fun place to work with these guys, and
44 00:08:30.440 ⇒ 00:08:31.690 Alexander Lubka: Yeah, so far so good.
45 00:08:31.950 ⇒ 00:08:32.919 Danielle Van Pelt: Awesome.
46 00:08:33.450 ⇒ 00:08:36.800 Alexander Lubka: And love to hear more about you and your background in, project management.
47 00:08:37.309 ⇒ 00:08:57.959 Danielle Van Pelt: Yeah, no, if I can go ahead and kind of give a little spiel. But yeah, so I’ve always been in, like, the apparel or retail industry for my 7 years. I started as a project manager at GBG. It was really a lot about… a lot of SaaS implementations, for different tools, like Microsoft Teams, ServiceNow.
48 00:08:57.959 ⇒ 00:09:12.549 Danielle Van Pelt: some different retail applications, like BLM or PIM tools, things of that nature. A lot of system or business admin, really focused on working, I guess, at that time, a lot with the business users or the end users of a lot of those types of systems.
49 00:09:12.549 ⇒ 00:09:28.659 Danielle Van Pelt: And things of that nature. And then moving on to Gap is kind of… I got a lot more involved with, like, I guess, product development teams, engineers, and things of that nature, and kind of supported 3 of the product teams there. As a business analyst, in my regard, I was really…
50 00:09:28.859 ⇒ 00:09:47.699 Danielle Van Pelt: you know, like, the champion or voice of, like, our end user or our internal customers, which is just, you know, business users for our PIM tools, or things that supported different, different products that supported our four e-commerce systems, or our e-commerce websites at the time.
51 00:09:48.249 ⇒ 00:10:02.599 Danielle Van Pelt: And then moving on, I guess, to 42 Technologies, I really was… I deployed a, like, an implementation, or had an implementation that I led from GB… at GBG for 42 Technologies.
52 00:10:02.599 ⇒ 00:10:17.009 Danielle Van Pelt: kind of got connected with them there, and then they brought me on a little bit afterwards to pretty much head project management for, the org there. It was also a… it’s a similar size, it was 14 before the layoffs when I got laid off, so…
53 00:10:17.039 ⇒ 00:10:27.929 Danielle Van Pelt: similar size there. 42 Technologies had a SaaS tool that they were pretty much doing for a data analytics platform, but they build themselves very much as, like, a
54 00:10:29.049 ⇒ 00:10:36.149 Danielle Van Pelt: provider of a SaaS product, but more so, they were providing, like, a service to help you, kind of.
55 00:10:36.149 ⇒ 00:10:55.899 Danielle Van Pelt: just get insights out of your data, very similar to, like, what you guys are doing, just tackling it from a little bit of a different angle. But that was kind of relatively… I would say that I got brought on really to focus on onboardings and a lot of the customer side of things, and then kind of just got really involved, I guess, with more…
56 00:10:55.899 ⇒ 00:10:58.669 Danielle Van Pelt: product team, and…
57 00:10:59.059 ⇒ 00:11:12.799 Danielle Van Pelt: agile operational framework and things of that nature, with really trying to get them started on something. They were just not having sprints or anything like that beforehand. You know, there wasn’t a lot of formalized
58 00:11:13.399 ⇒ 00:11:14.709 Danielle Van Pelt: like,
59 00:11:14.819 ⇒ 00:11:28.339 Danielle Van Pelt: just syncs or anything like that. Everything was very asynchronous and things of that nature, so we really… it was really about kind of creating a lot of that formality, and then kind of figuring out what the balance of, like, rigor and…
60 00:11:28.339 ⇒ 00:11:44.649 Danielle Van Pelt: I guess, like, simplicity or flexibility is at, like, a 14-person company for, like, all of my learning experience, you know, from classes, or for… I’m currently, like, working on my PMP, so, like, a lot of that studying and things of that nature, all very focused on, I guess.
61 00:11:45.729 ⇒ 00:12:02.399 Danielle Van Pelt: not as smaller scale of teams, I guess, so it’s just… there’s a lot of… I guess, I had a lot of struggle really trying to figure out, like, the… what balance between those two, when I moved from larger corporate, you know, product teams to, like, a more smaller, agile thing, and really try to figure out
62 00:12:02.399 ⇒ 00:12:11.179 Danielle Van Pelt: What trade-offs really needed to happen to, like, make sure that we were still being able to be agile, but, you know, also move predictably?
63 00:12:11.870 ⇒ 00:12:22.450 Alexander Lubka: I’d love to get more into that. I think that’s really interesting and relevant. So, you went from a larger company to a small firm with 14 people. You were the only PM there, is that correct?
64 00:12:22.450 ⇒ 00:12:23.200 Danielle Van Pelt: That’s correct.
65 00:12:23.200 ⇒ 00:12:26.729 Alexander Lubka: Okay, and so you went in there and…
66 00:12:27.140 ⇒ 00:12:32.419 Alexander Lubka: They didn’t have much in forms of processes or standards or documentation, is that right?
67 00:12:32.550 ⇒ 00:12:38.440 Danielle Van Pelt: Correct, yeah, it was very much so that, you know, they had, you know.
68 00:12:39.360 ⇒ 00:12:47.619 Danielle Van Pelt: like, I think they had, like, 3 or 4 meetings a week that were just all hands, you know, people would bring up certain things. There was, like, a weekly dev meeting.
69 00:12:47.620 ⇒ 00:13:12.609 Danielle Van Pelt: You know, and things of that nature, but there just wasn’t as many cross-functional syncs, I guess, to really keep, like, I would say, the key players involved internally, which was, like, product team and, like, sales and customer success type of… those types of people really just weren’t communicating as well, and then just the processes that we had in place were just really unpredictable, like working on, like, a Kanban structure, you know, when I came in, there just really wasn’t
70 00:13:12.610 ⇒ 00:13:29.659 Danielle Van Pelt: like, sales and customer success really just didn’t have an idea of when things were gonna be done, or, like, what the product… like, other than, like, maybe a week out, and I think that was kind of still a little bit of a problem by the time I left. I thought… I thought… I faced a lot of, I guess.
71 00:13:29.660 ⇒ 00:13:44.180 Danielle Van Pelt: you know, lots of things changed, I guess, in specifically one thing, sprint planning over the time period really morphed, and I can kind of get into that in a second, but I think the main thing here was just we were… the company, specifically.
72 00:13:44.270 ⇒ 00:13:55.430 Danielle Van Pelt: provided a SaaS product, but at the same time was, like, very wanting to be very customer and service oriented to our clients, and so I think that just created a…
73 00:13:55.680 ⇒ 00:14:19.559 Danielle Van Pelt: a lot of hard decisions, and I don’t know if all those decisions were greatly made, I guess, but it really thinks… I just felt that we were sometimes not moving forward on, like, our product, so… and doing a lot of things for our customers that may or may not keep the company afloat, but, you know, long term, I don’t know if that was the greatest decisions or not, but that’s relatively, you know, some of the aspects are there.
74 00:14:19.560 ⇒ 00:14:35.560 Danielle Van Pelt: I can go into kind of more of the things that I set up, but I would say that it’s really about, like, sprint planning, planning poker, I guess, like, getting, like, engineers logging time on tickets, you know, formalized,
75 00:14:35.650 ⇒ 00:14:47.820 Danielle Van Pelt: more, like, user story-based ticket creation. A lot of our tickets and things that were coming from our CS… our customer success and the end users and stuff in general were very,
76 00:14:48.910 ⇒ 00:14:56.800 Danielle Van Pelt: lacking of, like, the why, or also just, like, you know, maybe it’s just a picture of, like, hey, I want this, and I just…
77 00:14:56.800 ⇒ 00:15:19.649 Danielle Van Pelt: that leaves so much interpretation for an engineer, so, like, I want, you know, it was very much, like, say, like, I want things to be logistically written to where, like, an engineer looks at it, and then it’s like, oh, that’s how I’m gonna write it in the code, almost, you know, like, very if-then logical statements and things of that nature, especially for, like, data transformation and stuff like that. So, but that was kind of,
78 00:15:19.650 ⇒ 00:15:23.470 Danielle Van Pelt: generally… sorry, I may have lost track of the conversation, to be honest.
79 00:15:23.840 ⇒ 00:15:24.460 Danielle Van Pelt: Yeah, that’s.
80 00:15:25.700 ⇒ 00:15:34.399 Alexander Lubka: No, all good. So, I’m curious how, like, you approached it, initially, though. So, like, it sounds like you put a lot of good things in place, sprint planning, or actually implementing sprints.
81 00:15:34.850 ⇒ 00:15:47.650 Alexander Lubka: some of the ceremonies that you were talking about, like, but how did you think about it going into it? So it kind of… it sounds like, kind of like, okay, welcome to this company, you know, we don’t have any PMs, we don’t have any… we don’t… we’re not doing much, we’re doing a couple meetings once in a while.
82 00:15:47.650 ⇒ 00:15:56.070 Alexander Lubka: And you’re like, oh my god, and then, then what? Like, how did you approach it? Who did you talk to? Like, how did you figure out, what was the right approach for this company?
83 00:15:56.600 ⇒ 00:16:13.259 Danielle Van Pelt: Yeah, so I think it’s really about coming in. I guess my project management philosophy is very people-first, I guess, in some way, so I really enjoy, I guess, getting to get down to speak to everyone, figure out, I guess.
84 00:16:13.530 ⇒ 00:16:29.559 Danielle Van Pelt: what’s not working for them, what is working for them, what they enjoy, what they like, and just getting to know them more, kind of how they feel about the current processes and things of that nature. And then I really took a lot of that feedback, I would say, as well as just kind of, like.
85 00:16:29.560 ⇒ 00:16:51.749 Danielle Van Pelt: overseeing, I would say, you know, first 30, 60, 90 days type of thing, where you really don’t… or I’m making a lot more minimal changes, or I’m thinking about more things to just see how things are kind of currently going, and talking to a lot of the players. Really just, as I said, trying to get that feedback of what’s working, what’s not working, and then kind of trying to make sure that I don’t try to, I guess.
86 00:16:52.040 ⇒ 00:17:02.990 Danielle Van Pelt: make the same mistakes that maybe someone else has already tried, or, especially at a small company like that, and things of that nature. So, I think it was really about coming in and getting them at, like.
87 00:17:02.990 ⇒ 00:17:19.049 Danielle Van Pelt: meeting them at where they were, and then kind of, like, how do I, you know, force multiply that, or just, like, enable that better, is kind of how I come in as a project manager in my regard. And I think a lot of that kind of comes to the ties of just, I’m a very…
88 00:17:19.530 ⇒ 00:17:36.750 Danielle Van Pelt: task, like, I don’t know, just very organized individual in my life, my partner would almost say, to a detriment at times. So it’s, like, more so that, like, I just… I feel like I bring a lot of that. I structure, and I… I can… I’ve learned to, like, I guess, apply that to kind of enable others.
89 00:17:38.000 ⇒ 00:17:41.689 Alexander Lubka: Great. So, you worked there for about, like, 3 years or so?
90 00:17:41.690 ⇒ 00:17:42.940 Danielle Van Pelt: 3 years, yep.
91 00:17:42.940 ⇒ 00:18:00.589 Alexander Lubka: So what did… what did project… can you walk me through, like, how you managed a project from, like, initiation to close? You know, high level, towards the end of your time there? Like, what did… what’d the final state kind of look like? What kind of ceremonies were you doing? What kind of documentation? What… what were you doing in each kind of phase of the project?
92 00:18:01.310 ⇒ 00:18:10.230 Danielle Van Pelt: Yeah, so, Discovery was, like, a little bit partially with me, partially without me, depending on how involved I was in the sales process.
93 00:18:10.230 ⇒ 00:18:28.200 Danielle Van Pelt: Really, it was… in some regards, for, like, a lot of our… for the larger clients, it was a lot more involved. I was involved in some of those conversations, you know, kind of trying to figure out, you know, what their needs were, like, what the scope of the contract that we were looking to… to… to sign into.
94 00:18:28.200 ⇒ 00:18:34.159 Danielle Van Pelt: a lot of that was really, I guess, in the beginning days, was very focused on,
95 00:18:36.380 ⇒ 00:18:49.440 Danielle Van Pelt: working on, I guess, decreasing scope creep and a lot of that, so it was really about change management and trying to figure out, you know, make sure that discovery was, like, actually aligned on it from the beginning, and not just, like.
96 00:18:51.160 ⇒ 00:19:14.970 Danielle Van Pelt: we had said, like, a salesperson had said, this is it, and then they took, you know, whatever is at face value or something of that nature. It was really about, like, coming in and building, like, a data set or schema that kind of matched how, like, our data warehouse was set up, and how just our product was set up, and then kind of taking that in and kind of transferring it into, to kind of documentation to help with, I guess, a lot of that.
97 00:19:15.950 ⇒ 00:19:30.999 Danielle Van Pelt: discovery piece. Then I would say a lot of that after that was really about taking, like, a contract once that was signed, and pretty much taking that contract and turning it into, like, epics tickets and things of that nature. A lot of that was,
98 00:19:31.100 ⇒ 00:19:50.729 Danielle Van Pelt: kind of pre-kickoff or anything like that, I would say, at that point. Kickoff was a lot more of just that realignment stuff, so we had a kickoff meeting, and then we had, I would say, usually weekly to bi-weekly meetings after that, just kind of asynchronously to keep up on things. And then alongside with, like, a lot of our internal meetings.
99 00:19:51.730 ⇒ 00:20:07.010 Danielle Van Pelt: In regards of… we also had some more formal, like, I guess, closing type of ceremonies, with just, like, some collection of feedback and things of that nature, more formalized, just because, I guess, in some aspects of,
100 00:20:07.400 ⇒ 00:20:18.170 Danielle Van Pelt: some early projects, or some of the early onboardings, it was very iffy on when it was actually closing, like, I guess. We would kind of be in this long process of, like, oh.
101 00:20:18.440 ⇒ 00:20:32.870 Danielle Van Pelt: There’s another thing that kind of came up, but was it or was it not really in the, you know, in the contract initially? And things of that nature, so realigning on a lot of those things, I think, was a lot… a big part of it. But yeah, that’s kind of…
102 00:20:33.070 ⇒ 00:20:34.980 Danielle Van Pelt: Some… some pieces of that.
103 00:20:34.980 ⇒ 00:20:42.030 Uttam Kumaran: Where do you think the ambiguity kind of came from? Was it, like, an executive wasn’t being decisive, or, like, where do you think…
104 00:20:42.300 ⇒ 00:20:45.649 Uttam Kumaran: That, like, line wasn’t drawn, like, who was accountable for that?
105 00:20:45.900 ⇒ 00:20:49.939 Danielle Van Pelt: Yeah, so I really think it was just,
106 00:20:50.080 ⇒ 00:21:00.899 Danielle Van Pelt: there was no, like… so with our, say, like, the sales process at 42 Technologies, we didn’t really have a sales engineer or anything like that, so it was very, you know.
107 00:21:01.190 ⇒ 00:21:05.890 Danielle Van Pelt: most of the calls, I guess, were, you know, with…
108 00:21:06.010 ⇒ 00:21:12.299 Danielle Van Pelt: less technical experts, I guess? And so, when it kind of came down to just some things
109 00:21:13.150 ⇒ 00:21:33.910 Danielle Van Pelt: were just not touched on, I guess, or aligned on at, like, the highest, or not all the correct parties were there to actually have that discussion. You know, for instance, I think something that always came up, in the future was, like, sync frequency and things of that nature. You know, from, like, I guess the starting of those conversations, a lot of execs know that’s tied to, like.
110 00:21:33.960 ⇒ 00:21:34.910 Danielle Van Pelt: Money?
111 00:21:34.930 ⇒ 00:21:58.240 Danielle Van Pelt: And, you know, but then, like, once you get to, like, a kickoff, you know, and you have a lot more of, like, your, you know, your end users that are going to be using the process day-to-day, like, that’s something that maybe that is going to get brought… re-brought up and kind of be reintroduced to a discussion. I think… so I think it’s really about, like, just some different aspects, or, like, the alignment was just sometimes not there, on…
112 00:21:58.320 ⇒ 00:22:03.219 Danielle Van Pelt: the external side, and then, at times we just weren’t, I guess.
113 00:22:03.430 ⇒ 00:22:16.910 Danielle Van Pelt: really seeking it as heavily as we should, from, like, the 42 technologies side, is kind of how I see it. But there’s probably also just some barriers, I guess, with just…
114 00:22:18.320 ⇒ 00:22:24.490 Danielle Van Pelt: how technical some conversations could go and stuff of that nature, but I think it’s mainly just with…
115 00:22:24.850 ⇒ 00:22:26.570 Danielle Van Pelt: our contracts…
116 00:22:26.780 ⇒ 00:22:51.270 Danielle Van Pelt: in the beginning, not being very segmented well, or, like, what the data sets or what we were actually integrating with was not very defined. But after we kind of created, or after I created that, like, a data schema and kind of an idea of, like, oh, this is how we should word our contracts, or, like, this is how, like, this data set should be mentioned. Like, if we were going to integrate with, like, Google Analytics.
117 00:22:51.460 ⇒ 00:23:01.209 Danielle Van Pelt: You know, like, I want to know what are we actually pulling from there, and so that’s kind of been added to the contract, so there’s a lot less to be ambiguous on.
118 00:23:03.860 ⇒ 00:23:04.230 Uttam Kumaran: Right.
119 00:23:04.230 ⇒ 00:23:05.230 Alexander Lubka: We’re,
120 00:23:06.250 ⇒ 00:23:11.880 Alexander Lubka: When you were doing these ceremonies, were you working… were you client-facing? Were you working with the clients? And were they involved in them?
121 00:23:11.880 ⇒ 00:23:33.400 Danielle Van Pelt: Yeah, I was, I would say that there was definitely… I wasn’t the main point of contact, because we had customer success managers, as well as, like, there was a transition from sales, as well in these meetings, but still, like, the main PM focused on all of the external calls with them throughout, like, the onboarding process, and some within, like, that sales
122 00:23:33.400 ⇒ 00:23:35.450 Danielle Van Pelt: Process as well, so…
123 00:23:37.180 ⇒ 00:23:38.400 Alexander Lubka: And when you were…
124 00:23:38.690 ⇒ 00:23:52.130 Alexander Lubka: I know you said you right… you’re kind of, like, right-sizing it for the PM processes you put in place and the ceremonies. When… what do you think was, like, the delta between, like, what you suggested and what was actually implemented?
125 00:23:57.000 ⇒ 00:23:59.780 Danielle Van Pelt: Yeah, so, hmm. So, I think…
126 00:24:00.000 ⇒ 00:24:14.660 Danielle Van Pelt: The biggest thing is, is I guess I wanted more touchpoints in a lot of ways, I guess. I sometimes am, like, over-communicative, just to get a lot across that line point, alignment very…
127 00:24:14.660 ⇒ 00:24:28.940 Danielle Van Pelt: partially, I would say, or just, like, I really… I think that’s, like, a very key point, I guess, is, like, the discovery to me is just very important, and some aspects of that, like, I know, really smash against, like, sales in general.
128 00:24:29.020 ⇒ 00:24:31.549 Danielle Van Pelt: And stuff, so, you know…
129 00:24:32.300 ⇒ 00:24:37.250 Danielle Van Pelt: it was… I guess that… I think that was, like, the biggest portion of my process that was kind of streaking back is.
130 00:24:37.250 ⇒ 00:25:01.780 Danielle Van Pelt: I would really… before a contract was signed, I guess, I would like to have almost more of a discovery process, but somehow, like, you know, that just sometimes just doesn’t land. You can’t get the actual people in the conversation, that you need, or all the stakeholders involved until that contract is signed sometime. So that was kind of, I feel like, the part of the process that was, a lot more difficult for… or at least I wanted more…
131 00:25:03.320 ⇒ 00:25:07.970 Danielle Van Pelt: Like, operational rigor, or just, like, more alignment with, so…
132 00:25:08.750 ⇒ 00:25:09.340 Alexander Lubka: Yeah.
133 00:25:10.110 ⇒ 00:25:16.880 Alexander Lubka: And then one question I love asking is, or we both love asking, is, how do you hold your engineers accountable
134 00:25:17.250 ⇒ 00:25:18.779 Alexander Lubka: And during a project.
135 00:25:18.930 ⇒ 00:25:27.859 Danielle Van Pelt: Yeah, no, so I’m, very much, as I said, at the beginning, kind of people first, so I think it’s all about learning, like, relatively
136 00:25:28.320 ⇒ 00:25:35.149 Danielle Van Pelt: How they tick and things of that nature, so that you can kind of, like.
137 00:25:35.240 ⇒ 00:25:57.480 Danielle Van Pelt: empower them in different ways and keep them accountable. Some people are, you know, some engineers that I’ve worked with are very on top of things, you know? And, you know, they do provide… they provide updates on tickets, you know? Like, it’s like, I… you leave the day, I’m gonna give you relatively an update on the end of the day what’s going on, and then some are a lot more just.
138 00:25:57.480 ⇒ 00:26:13.669 Danielle Van Pelt: you know, laissez-faire in that regard, but are getting the work done. So I think it’s really about figuring out meeting them where they’re at, and then really, just making sure that that communication is there, and that you have all the contact points to make sure that they’re comfortable to bring up issues.
139 00:26:14.740 ⇒ 00:26:30.520 Danielle Van Pelt: And also that, like, you know, when those new issues get brought up, that you’re able to then course correct immediately, and things of that nature. So I think it’s all about, like, that open communication, and then just being a good, open, safe space, so that they don’t have fear of, you know.
140 00:26:30.600 ⇒ 00:26:33.519 Danielle Van Pelt: Coming in late on something, or things like that, so…
141 00:26:35.310 ⇒ 00:26:42.330 Alexander Lubka: Cool. And, I think the last question I have, and then I’d love to give you some time, or Utomi, if you have any other questions, but,
142 00:26:42.980 ⇒ 00:26:51.030 Alexander Lubka: You mentioned you’re working on your PMP. How’s that going? How, what made you want to do that, and is that… how does it lead to your… some of your longer-term goals?
143 00:26:51.150 ⇒ 00:27:02.429 Danielle Van Pelt: Yeah, so it’s been, I would say that it’s something that I actually was looking into a little bit before I started at 42 Technologies, and then I think it just kind of…
144 00:27:04.140 ⇒ 00:27:15.419 Danielle Van Pelt: completely just got put to the wayside, I would say, when I was working there. But it’s something that I was, like, when I got laid off, and, you know, I knew it was just something
145 00:27:15.520 ⇒ 00:27:26.060 Danielle Van Pelt: I was kind of back and forth on a lot of certifications in general, like, whether or not they would be helpful for me, whether or not they were worth it, but there was just a lot of, I guess.
146 00:27:27.750 ⇒ 00:27:42.150 Danielle Van Pelt: positive feedback about the PMP and things of that nature, so I… and I knew that it was something that… I really enjoy going into, like, this delivery route, project management in general. I do really enjoy, like, working, I guess,
147 00:27:42.190 ⇒ 00:27:49.150 Danielle Van Pelt: with engineers and things of that nature, so I really was interested in just picking it up, because I think a lot of that more formalized
148 00:27:49.210 ⇒ 00:27:56.659 Danielle Van Pelt: Teaching or having a lot of the vocabulary that comes with it is very helpful, and even with my
149 00:27:56.770 ⇒ 00:28:03.640 Danielle Van Pelt: I would say, like, 30-45% of the way through, like, some of the coursework right now.
150 00:28:03.750 ⇒ 00:28:06.229 Danielle Van Pelt: Because I’m just taking, I guess, like a…
151 00:28:07.100 ⇒ 00:28:25.860 Danielle Van Pelt: a prep course for the exam has been super helpful, giving a lot of, like, terminology or names to things that I guess I learned on the field, but didn’t have, like, you know, specific terminology for it and things of that nature, so it’s been very helpful in that regard. But yeah, still, I’m hoping to…
152 00:28:26.290 ⇒ 00:28:30.229 Danielle Van Pelt: I’m hoping to have it by the end of the year, that’s the goal at the moment, so…
153 00:28:30.570 ⇒ 00:28:33.360 Alexander Lubka: Awesome, I’m all for it, I have mine, so best of luck.
154 00:28:33.360 ⇒ 00:28:43.950 Danielle Van Pelt: Yeah, so we’re… we’re going through it, and I have a friend that has it, so as soon as… as soon as I try… as soon as I get mine, I’ve got the person to go to the… get those credits yearly, so…
155 00:28:43.950 ⇒ 00:28:45.789 Alexander Lubka: Oh, good, yeah, gotta keep up.
156 00:28:45.790 ⇒ 00:28:46.520 Danielle Van Pelt: Yeah.
157 00:28:46.790 ⇒ 00:28:49.610 Alexander Lubka: Utam, anything else for Danielle before I hand it over?
158 00:28:49.610 ⇒ 00:29:08.819 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I guess probably my only question is, like, you know, I think hearing about 42 and kind of, like, it’s interesting hearing about the ways other people do things, and I feel like, you know, compared to what you described there, I feel like we are pretty close between sales and, like, PM. I don’t think we have all of the, like.
159 00:29:08.920 ⇒ 00:29:15.109 Uttam Kumaran: structure down, but it’s very open. Meaning, like, me and one other person are selling everything.
160 00:29:15.110 ⇒ 00:29:15.460 Danielle Van Pelt: Yeah.
161 00:29:15.460 ⇒ 00:29:22.419 Uttam Kumaran: And there’s no, like, don’t talk to us about who we’re… like, I would prefer more people come ask me who we’re talking to.
162 00:29:22.420 ⇒ 00:29:22.890 Danielle Van Pelt: Yeah.
163 00:29:22.890 ⇒ 00:29:41.659 Uttam Kumaran: I think for us, it’s actually more of a capacity issue because we’re balancing our client work. And kind of, like, again, a little bit of a difference between us and 42 is it sounds more like a managed service for a software tool. For us, we’re much more on the, like, client, like.
164 00:29:41.750 ⇒ 00:29:43.020 Uttam Kumaran: consulting, so…
165 00:29:43.020 ⇒ 00:29:44.200 Danielle Van Pelt: Within their walk-ins.
166 00:29:44.200 ⇒ 00:29:52.950 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, we walk into an environment that we may or may not have control over the tools, the situation, the people, and we have to solve an outcome.
167 00:29:52.950 ⇒ 00:30:11.249 Uttam Kumaran: So I would say it’s… it can lead to a lot more variability, but we are trying to bring a lot of structure into that process. And then the last piece is the pace is still really high. Like, for me to go out and to sell bigger and bigger contracts and do more and more complex work.
168 00:30:11.280 ⇒ 00:30:23.959 Uttam Kumaran: that takes longer, and we can bill more for. Like, we never compromise on the quality of our work. And so, we were doing great work before we had tickets, before we had anything. That being said, it was a mess.
169 00:30:24.650 ⇒ 00:30:32.969 Uttam Kumaran: process doesn’t… like, I don’t… I’m someone who is, like, a process so that the output becomes better, right? And everybody…
170 00:30:32.970 ⇒ 00:30:33.480 Danielle Van Pelt: For sure.
171 00:30:33.480 ⇒ 00:30:47.569 Uttam Kumaran: feels safer, feels more confident when they wake up in the morning what they have to do, and it allows us to predict better. But one thing that, you know, we’ve gone this far is that we’ve never compromised on, sort of, the quality of the work, and I think that
172 00:30:47.910 ⇒ 00:30:57.189 Uttam Kumaran: I think in typical project management, you’re biased towards more process or less process. I would say, I’m usually, even though I was a project manager for a while, I’ve pulled towards
173 00:30:57.190 ⇒ 00:31:06.229 Uttam Kumaran: getting whatever the client needs first, before getting the process purely right. But the PM team and the delivery team in the company needs to pull back on that.
174 00:31:06.230 ⇒ 00:31:21.880 Uttam Kumaran: Right? Because they always need to see, okay, was there an opportunity here for us to do, like, a post-mortem on, like, some big fire, figure out the next time that we could have had a playbook around this? And so that’s always going to be the draw in the company, but it’s a known draw.
175 00:31:22.200 ⇒ 00:31:22.660 Danielle Van Pelt: Yeah, for sure.
176 00:31:22.660 ⇒ 00:31:38.609 Uttam Kumaran: It’s not a… it’s not a, unspoken… like, I am very much, like, the more PMs we have, the more I have to pull us to the other side, because that’s just… that’s just natural, right? And so, I think that’s what we found to work, and we are going more towards predictable work.
177 00:31:38.610 ⇒ 00:31:52.519 Uttam Kumaran: predictable playbooks around the way we execute for clients, and they appreciate it, too, because we can have longer-term conversations, we hit our goals, you know, more confidently, and so that’s a little bit of context about kind of, like, where we are in our process.
178 00:31:52.930 ⇒ 00:32:01.490 Danielle Van Pelt: Yeah, I think that makes perfect sense, really. I think coming into… I mean, you have to come into, like, every organization, I think, very…
179 00:32:02.360 ⇒ 00:32:15.339 Danielle Van Pelt: very uniquely, I guess. Like, it’s every situation, every team is gonna need something different, I feel like, and it’s really about just trying to figure out what works the best, and kind of, you know, however long they…
180 00:32:15.340 ⇒ 00:32:23.920 Danielle Van Pelt: you know, and how many ups and downs that kind of takes is kind of worth it in the end for, you know, for that… for that efficiency, I guess.
181 00:32:23.920 ⇒ 00:32:24.550 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
182 00:32:25.210 ⇒ 00:32:31.639 Uttam Kumaran: Perfect, yeah, I’m happy to, you know, answer any questions you have, and happy to stay on a bit longer, too, so let me know,
183 00:32:31.640 ⇒ 00:32:32.090 Danielle Van Pelt: Yeah.
184 00:32:32.090 ⇒ 00:32:34.229 Uttam Kumaran: Anything I can answer, happy to.
185 00:32:34.230 ⇒ 00:32:50.449 Danielle Van Pelt: Yeah, I think the first question I had was… I didn’t know if there was, like, a person that I would be reporting to or anything like that with the role, and I guess my… one of my always questions is kind of just management style, so I guess that was a question. I didn’t know if there… if there is one.
186 00:32:50.450 ⇒ 00:32:55.080 Danielle Van Pelt: If there isn’t one, I guess it’s maybe harder to answer that question, so we can disregard, but…
187 00:32:55.080 ⇒ 00:33:06.819 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, maybe both those questions. So, right now, I would say we’re… we have been a pretty flat organization, meaning it’s rolling up typically to me or my business partner. We are building, sort of, the…
188 00:33:06.820 ⇒ 00:33:25.020 Uttam Kumaran: like, management layer in the company, sort of like the executors and integrators between us at the top and folks that are executing day-to-day. So, it’s not, like, super well-defined yet whether there’s gonna be, like, clear people management, but we have leads across different functions.
189 00:33:25.020 ⇒ 00:33:25.550 Danielle Van Pelt: Gotcha.
190 00:33:25.550 ⇒ 00:33:39.750 Uttam Kumaran: And so I think this is something over the next 6 months, we will evolve. Right now, all… most of our work is on execution, and I think we spread the load of people management in different ways. Of course, like, I… I know everybody… it’s not a huge company, so I am.
191 00:33:39.750 ⇒ 00:33:40.180 Danielle Van Pelt: Yeah.
192 00:33:40.180 ⇒ 00:33:47.060 Uttam Kumaran: I know everybody, and but I think that will start to change, but execution and delivery
193 00:33:47.070 ⇒ 00:34:06.099 Uttam Kumaran: becoming rock solid is the number one priority right now. And then, I mean, again, like, for me, I’m willing to bear the brunt of managing the relationship with everybody on the team in the short term, until we build… understand, also, some people, they’re… they come in as a lead, and they don’t want to manage people, they want to just manage projects, right? So for me.
194 00:34:06.100 ⇒ 00:34:06.570 Danielle Van Pelt: For sure.
195 00:34:06.570 ⇒ 00:34:23.359 Uttam Kumaran: understand where people want to fit, and where, sort of, their, like, VIN diagram of, like, their superpowers are, and get them to that point. And then in terms of management style, yeah, I don’t know, I don’t have, like, a, I’m style A or style B sort of answer for you. I guess,
196 00:34:23.760 ⇒ 00:34:37.530 Uttam Kumaran: I worked as an engineer for most of my career. I worked in, you know, increasingly smaller startups, with more and more responsibility, so I’ve worked in a lot of different environments, like, very fast-paced.
197 00:34:37.560 ⇒ 00:34:44.570 Uttam Kumaran: But I also worked in a lot of environments that, like, didn’t feel safe. They were, like, kind of fear-driven, very chaotic.
198 00:34:44.610 ⇒ 00:35:00.399 Uttam Kumaran: you didn’t come to work knowing, like, when work would end, or, like, what you had on your plate. Like, this is not that at all. So, I’m very opinionated, but it’s sort of, like, many opinions are loosely held based on, like, the feedback I get from the team or for clients.
199 00:35:00.400 ⇒ 00:35:08.390 Uttam Kumaran: At the end of the day, like, we’re a consultancy, and so there are right ways of doing things. There are also things that I frequently challenge, because
200 00:35:08.390 ⇒ 00:35:28.679 Uttam Kumaran: Of how we want to create a different type of consulting, how we want to have an outsized outcome, how we want to retain people differently. And so there are things in the way I… we manage that I try to challenge. Either I bring from my experience in startups or in software, or it’s just, I don’t like
201 00:35:28.680 ⇒ 00:35:33.780 Uttam Kumaran: that every consultancy does it like this, and it doesn’t need to be like that, right? And so,
202 00:35:33.880 ⇒ 00:35:44.909 Uttam Kumaran: I would say it’s a really open feedback, like, kind of fail-forward type of environment, but I won’t say that it’s not urgent, and that the work isn’t serious. So it’s like…
203 00:35:44.910 ⇒ 00:36:04.110 Uttam Kumaran: it is both of those balancing, but it’s not a fear-driven thing where it’s like, if this doesn’t happen, everybody’s fired. Like, that is actually not the case, and it’s actually something that I have to root out for most people that join the company, because most people are coming from an environment that may have felt that way, or maybe had no sense of urgency. And so, for both of those.
204 00:36:04.110 ⇒ 00:36:07.910 Uttam Kumaran: We still have to create that the only reason we’re here is to accomplish
205 00:36:07.920 ⇒ 00:36:10.089 Uttam Kumaran: What our clients are paying us for.
206 00:36:10.360 ⇒ 00:36:10.720 Danielle Van Pelt: yam.
207 00:36:10.720 ⇒ 00:36:17.070 Uttam Kumaran: But also, like, that isn’t a… that isn’t a don’t make mistakes, it’s actually just, like, make them faster and more openly, so that…
208 00:36:17.070 ⇒ 00:36:21.300 Danielle Van Pelt: Yeah, and be able to re… be able to kind of readjust with failure, I guess.
209 00:36:21.300 ⇒ 00:36:40.590 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, that’s… that’s more of it. And it’s also… we’re a complete remote business. We do a lot of writing, sort of like, we do a fair bit of meetings, but I would say going, hopefully, down over time. So, when we have people all across the world, so it’s a mix of cultures, mix of people, which makes it great, you know.
210 00:36:40.590 ⇒ 00:36:49.519 Danielle Van Pelt: Oh, no, that was my… that was one of my favorite things, I guess, coming… going to, 42 specifically, was just… I guess I was very…
211 00:36:49.970 ⇒ 00:37:08.569 Danielle Van Pelt: disheartened, I guess, by a lot of corporate culture, which is a lot of my other experiences, very, like, poli… like, corporate politics heavy, like, you know, don’t speak, ill will to your manager in front of others type of, you know, environments, I guess, and stuff like that, so it was…
212 00:37:08.570 ⇒ 00:37:09.649 Uttam Kumaran: No, no interest in that.
213 00:37:09.650 ⇒ 00:37:11.090 Danielle Van Pelt: Yeah.
214 00:37:11.090 ⇒ 00:37:12.169 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, no interest in that.
215 00:37:12.170 ⇒ 00:37:13.590 Danielle Van Pelt: Yeah, so, yeah, so…
216 00:37:13.590 ⇒ 00:37:29.420 Uttam Kumaran: So naturally, the organization, like, an organization tends to build that if you don’t set, sort of, the agenda or the culture, first, so we try to do that. But again, you have to have, give or takes, like, we listen to everybody’s feedback, but ultimately, like, I have to make decisions, right?
217 00:37:29.420 ⇒ 00:37:38.349 Uttam Kumaran: And so that has to be the balance, but it’s a known balance. And also, it’s just, like, talking out loud about, like, what’s going well, what’s not going well, I…
218 00:37:38.430 ⇒ 00:37:43.800 Uttam Kumaran: I’ve worked at a lot of companies where it seems really great until everybody gets fired, and it’s like, what happened?
219 00:37:43.800 ⇒ 00:37:46.000 Danielle Van Pelt: You know, and I know that’s not…
220 00:37:46.000 ⇒ 00:37:57.350 Uttam Kumaran: it is… I can now, in my position, I understand why it’s hard to share what’s not going well, it’s not a great feeling, but I would rather it be that way to get help from everybody else to solving those problems, you know?
221 00:37:57.350 ⇒ 00:38:00.320 Danielle Van Pelt: No, for sure. Open communication’s key, for sure.
222 00:38:00.660 ⇒ 00:38:01.270 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
223 00:38:02.090 ⇒ 00:38:12.819 Danielle Van Pelt: That makes sense. I think only one quick question left, I guess, was really, like, I guess, what do you guys think is, like, the most important aspect to, like, succeeding in this role?
224 00:38:14.850 ⇒ 00:38:17.570 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, Alex, do you have a… you have an answer you want me to go?
225 00:38:18.350 ⇒ 00:38:27.100 Alexander Lubka: I would say holding people accountable, making sure, you know, and having that communication, making sure if something’s wrong, flagging it, I think…
226 00:38:27.340 ⇒ 00:38:43.620 Alexander Lubka: the risks, or yeah, managing risks is a big one for this one. Just making sure they’re all on track, but I think, like, yeah, if you’re… the engineers aren’t doing something that they need to be doing, or there’s not as much documentation as you expect, or the tickets aren’t there, holding them accountable is a big part of this job.
227 00:38:44.500 ⇒ 00:39:08.780 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I think, like, over-communication, for sure. I think what you’ll find, and we know this, is, like, I slack the most in the company, and so I’m now looking for who’s next to start to do those types of things, and so I think we’re looking for over-communication. Second, certainly, accountability. I think also, like, a relationship with the people, the clients, and the people on your team, like, building some glue.
228 00:39:08.950 ⇒ 00:39:24.020 Uttam Kumaran: Right? So that people can do this small task that, like, they don’t need to be asked to do, that they, like, feel an ownership mentality over the project. I think those are really important. And the last thing, I think, is just fast iteration cycles. Like.
229 00:39:24.130 ⇒ 00:39:37.619 Uttam Kumaran: we don’t have much redundancy on many projects. We don’t have, like, 100 people doing one thing, so it’s important for the people on the delivery team to have a clear sense of if we’re going to hit our milestone, yes or no, why or why not.
230 00:39:37.800 ⇒ 00:39:38.560 Danielle Van Pelt: Damn.
231 00:39:38.560 ⇒ 00:39:42.460 Uttam Kumaran: And then propose a solution, and then come to the table with, what do you think?
232 00:39:42.480 ⇒ 00:39:43.750 Danielle Van Pelt: Versus…
233 00:39:43.790 ⇒ 00:39:49.059 Uttam Kumaran: oh, it’s going well, it’s going well, it’s going well, it’s not going well. And then, I can’t say anything, you know?
234 00:39:49.930 ⇒ 00:39:52.249 Uttam Kumaran: that’s sort of what I’m looking for is, I think.
235 00:39:52.770 ⇒ 00:40:03.889 Uttam Kumaran: We’re just looking for people that kind of, like, call it as it is, use, like, fact-based approach, like, tickets or delivery or feedback to sort of have an open conversation.
236 00:40:03.890 ⇒ 00:40:20.220 Uttam Kumaran: But we make decisions fast, and so the decisiveness and the evidence needed to make decisions is really important, you know, to leadership here. And so communication for this role, I think, is the most important. You’re the voice box for the client and for the team, but also
237 00:40:20.220 ⇒ 00:40:31.800 Uttam Kumaran: it’s not in a, like, vertical hierarchy sense. It’s, like, DM plays a specific role to protect those folks from having to do all that work, and so that’s kind of, like.
238 00:40:32.100 ⇒ 00:40:33.239 Uttam Kumaran: what I would share.
239 00:40:33.510 ⇒ 00:40:36.230 Danielle Van Pelt: Yeah, sounds good. That’s very… good to hear.
240 00:40:36.470 ⇒ 00:40:37.090 Uttam Kumaran: Whoa.
241 00:40:37.380 ⇒ 00:40:50.889 Uttam Kumaran: Okay, perfect. Well, if no other questions, yeah, I really, really appreciate the time. Thank you, you know, for dealing with some of the delays on our side, and we interview a little bit slow, and we’re a small company, so it matters that we get to meet everybody, and
242 00:40:50.890 ⇒ 00:40:57.580 Uttam Kumaran: and spend some time together, so I appreciate the thoughtful questions, and for… for sharing a lot of your backgrounds today.
243 00:40:57.740 ⇒ 00:41:00.420 Danielle Van Pelt: Yeah, it was awesome. It was wonderful meeting both of y’all.
244 00:41:00.420 ⇒ 00:41:01.120 Uttam Kumaran: Perfect.
245 00:41:01.490 ⇒ 00:41:02.530 Alexander Lubka: You too. Thanks, Danielle.
246 00:41:02.530 ⇒ 00:41:04.320 Danielle Van Pelt: Have a great one. See you around. Bye.
247 00:41:04.320 ⇒ 00:41:05.010 Uttam Kumaran: weekend.
248 00:41:05.010 ⇒ 00:41:06.050 Danielle Van Pelt: You as well.