Meeting Title: Brainforge x Matthew Project Check-in Date: 2025-08-28 Meeting participants: Joseph Good, Uttam Kumaran
WEBVTT
1 00:01:13.160 ⇒ 00:01:13.710 Uttam Kumaran: Amen.
2 00:01:13.710 ⇒ 00:01:14.440 Joseph Good: Fantastic.
3 00:01:14.690 ⇒ 00:01:16.219 Joseph Good: What’s up, man? How’s it going?
4 00:01:16.510 ⇒ 00:01:18.370 Uttam Kumaran: Good, how are you? How was the trip?
5 00:01:19.810 ⇒ 00:01:22.819 Joseph Good: Dude, it was good. It was good. I was in, …
6 00:01:23.040 ⇒ 00:01:27.629 Joseph Good: made some last-minute pivots. I was just supposed to be in Thailand, and then…
7 00:01:27.890 ⇒ 00:01:33.930 Joseph Good: like, 2 weeks in, I was like, you know what, I’ve kind of seen… kind of seen everything I just came to see in Thailand.
8 00:01:34.170 ⇒ 00:01:34.750 Uttam Kumaran: Okay.
9 00:01:34.750 ⇒ 00:01:42.310 Joseph Good: So, like, added some, added Singapore and Hong Kong to the mix, which was… which was great, but lots of good food.
10 00:01:42.610 ⇒ 00:01:46.560 Joseph Good: Probably gained… probably gained a lot of weight, more… more… more weight than I should have, but….
11 00:01:46.560 ⇒ 00:01:48.240 Uttam Kumaran: Where did you go in Singapore?
12 00:01:49.480 ⇒ 00:01:54.260 Joseph Good: I was in… I was staying in the Arab Quarter, and then, …
13 00:01:54.740 ⇒ 00:01:59.849 Joseph Good: Could not… we’re not at the level of affording Marina Bay Sands yet. Hopefully we’ll get there.
14 00:01:59.850 ⇒ 00:02:02.039 Uttam Kumaran: But… but….
15 00:02:02.040 ⇒ 00:02:10.770 Joseph Good: But, he swung by, and, like, I was obviously beautiful, and went through Chinatown, and … and all that good stuff, and Little India and whatnot, so it was great.
16 00:02:11.050 ⇒ 00:02:14.430 Uttam Kumaran: Nice, hell yeah. Singapore’s so cool, dude.
17 00:02:14.890 ⇒ 00:02:15.530 Joseph Good: Yeah.
18 00:02:16.840 ⇒ 00:02:21.280 Joseph Good: But, yeah, no, it was… it was a great time. How are you, Harry? Thanks.
19 00:02:21.990 ⇒ 00:02:29.899 Uttam Kumaran: Things are good, busy. We hired a couple people, had some people leave.
20 00:02:30.160 ⇒ 00:02:37.299 Uttam Kumaran: still growing clients, so just the… I think the usual… the usual drama, …
21 00:02:37.460 ⇒ 00:02:53.170 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, things are good. We’re actually doing some work for, for Matthew. We built some automations for him, actually. I think you’d be interested, I can tell you a little bit about that, but we’re, like, demoing some of our final stuff we built today, so, …
22 00:02:53.170 ⇒ 00:03:03.529 Uttam Kumaran: He’s been really busy and traveling, so I haven’t even been able to, like, get our stuff in front of him, so I’m kind of hopeful that he’s gonna like what he sees today. …
23 00:03:03.600 ⇒ 00:03:04.230 Uttam Kumaran: But….
24 00:03:04.230 ⇒ 00:03:04.610 Joseph Good: Yeah.
25 00:03:04.610 ⇒ 00:03:06.840 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, go ahead.
26 00:03:06.840 ⇒ 00:03:12.090 Joseph Good: No, no, I was just gonna say, he mentioned he was like, dude, Utom’s putting the sauce on it, so I’m…
27 00:03:12.610 ⇒ 00:03:15.789 Joseph Good: I’m excited to see what, what you guys demo.
28 00:03:15.790 ⇒ 00:03:21.419 Uttam Kumaran: See, I mean, it looks like, you know, basically they wanted… he wanted us to come in, take…
29 00:03:21.740 ⇒ 00:03:24.289 Uttam Kumaran: Like, they’re, they’re, …
30 00:03:24.760 ⇒ 00:03:38.619 Uttam Kumaran: their transcripts and their questionnaires from their clients that they collect, and build the first version of the, like, slide outline. But go beyond just, like, building it. Also, like, have an AI like Steelman, like.
31 00:03:38.760 ⇒ 00:03:53.709 Uttam Kumaran: why does this work? Why doesn’t this work? Why is the whole thing bad? Why is the whole thing good? Like, kind of give the… give even more info. And doing that all via Slack, and then it goes into Notion after, like, you sort of approve it. So, it’s a….
32 00:03:53.710 ⇒ 00:03:54.040 Joseph Good: Got it.
33 00:03:54.140 ⇒ 00:03:59.110 Uttam Kumaran: It’s pretty cool, so let’s see. I’m happy, I think it’s, …
34 00:03:59.140 ⇒ 00:04:14.159 Uttam Kumaran: for… I can tell that it’s probably, like, not… it is a bottleneck for them, but I also think that they’re probably have a lot of other stuff they could also start to automate, so I’m kind of hopeful that they like this and they can start to use it, so….
35 00:04:14.730 ⇒ 00:04:15.820 Joseph Good: 100%.
36 00:04:16.209 ⇒ 00:04:20.419 Uttam Kumaran: So we have a couple clients like that, where we come in, and it’s like a point automation.
37 00:04:20.419 ⇒ 00:04:23.509 Joseph Good: We’re also starting with a couple of clients where.
38 00:04:23.509 ⇒ 00:04:30.969 Uttam Kumaran: they sort of have us for, like, broader AI strategy. That’s also really interesting, because I think…
39 00:04:31.259 ⇒ 00:04:44.399 Uttam Kumaran: I don’t know, most of my work, it’s always like, okay, try to build something, but some people just want, like, advice or a workshop. So we’re starting to sort of build, sort of, flows around that, too. ….
40 00:04:45.370 ⇒ 00:04:55.350 Uttam Kumaran: And, yeah, we’re still doing a lot of data work. So kind of slowly growing. I think also our team is changing a lot, so… which is in a great way. Like, we finally have…
41 00:04:55.450 ⇒ 00:05:09.279 Uttam Kumaran: sort of a couple of new, like, internal roles. So we have, like, you know, engineers, but we also now have, like, leads. So there is a lead for, like, on the AI side, there’s a lead on the…
42 00:05:09.280 ⇒ 00:05:23.189 Uttam Kumaran: Data side, we have a couple different, like, data verticals, so there’s, like, sort of two leads there. And then that way, there’s sort of, like, a middle ground between me and, like, you know, the whole company.
43 00:05:23.190 ⇒ 00:05:32.730 Uttam Kumaran: And so there’s at least, like, the whole company gets more support from the leads, and then the leads kind of can roll up problems directly to me. So we’re building that sort of motion.
44 00:05:32.730 ⇒ 00:05:40.859 Uttam Kumaran: We’re… we’re… we’re bringing on, probably one more project manager who’s sort of kind of senior.
45 00:05:40.860 ⇒ 00:05:56.709 Uttam Kumaran: Right now we have, Amber on our team, who’s a project manager, but she’s, … Yeah. I don’t know, she’s managing a lot, and there’s one other person that’s sort of part-time project managing. They’re just, like, strapped for time, so we want to bring someone who can kind of become basically the lead for the PM group.
46 00:05:56.830 ⇒ 00:05:59.810 Uttam Kumaran: And then, yeah, I mean, we’re still, like.
47 00:06:00.010 ⇒ 00:06:10.590 Uttam Kumaran: as we get more clients, I will have to bring on more people, so I’m always kind of constantly thinking about, like, who do we need, and how do we find fits? I mean, like, I’m not someone who…
48 00:06:10.950 ⇒ 00:06:25.799 Uttam Kumaran: care as much about, like, previous titles. I’m more interested in, like, capabilities, especially on the AI side. It’s hard to find people that have done this for a long time, so more finding people that are, like, genuinely curious and can work with clients on it. …
49 00:06:26.290 ⇒ 00:06:29.430 Uttam Kumaran: But, yeah, that’s kind of, like, where we are right now.
50 00:06:30.370 ⇒ 00:06:36.260 Joseph Good: Yeah, yeah, that’s awesome. That’s… that’s helpful context. Yeah, had a… had a good chat with…
51 00:06:36.590 ⇒ 00:06:47.779 Joseph Good: Amber before Asia, and I think she kind of gave me the rundown on, I guess, the team at the time, and then kind of the current process of the way that you work with clients and whatnot.
52 00:06:47.960 ⇒ 00:06:54.479 Joseph Good: And I know, like, last time, I think when we chatted, … There might have been…
53 00:06:55.600 ⇒ 00:06:59.270 Joseph Good: like, at the time, I guess we’re exploring what potentially…
54 00:07:00.500 ⇒ 00:07:07.210 Joseph Good: yeah, some sort of work or whatnot would look like. I… what would be helpful? Like, I can maybe give you a context on…
55 00:07:07.380 ⇒ 00:07:16.850 Joseph Good: what I’ve been up to over the past, like, few months, since we last chatted, or, like, where I would hope to go in the next, like, 6 months, or what would be….
56 00:07:16.850 ⇒ 00:07:34.679 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, probably, like, tell me the latter. Like, I’m curious about, like, where you want to go. Like, we have a bunch of things we’re doing, we have a bunch of… I also have sort of a vision. So, yeah, I’m just, like, kind of want to hear, like, where you think you want to go and why, and that would be a great place to start.
57 00:07:35.270 ⇒ 00:07:36.400 Joseph Good: Yeah, for sure.
58 00:07:36.500 ⇒ 00:07:43.280 Joseph Good: I think, like, first and foremost, just, you know, I’ve gotten in that my background is definitely more, like.
59 00:07:43.490 ⇒ 00:07:46.570 Joseph Good: on the growth GTM side, and…
60 00:07:46.940 ⇒ 00:07:59.409 Joseph Good: have done some more of, like, the lightly technical work, you know, at Air Ops, but honestly looking to just build up more of, like, the engineering chops, so to speak, and really get into the weeds of
61 00:07:59.740 ⇒ 00:08:05.409 Joseph Good: I suppose AI engineering could be broadly defined by some folks, but really looking to get, like.
62 00:08:05.660 ⇒ 00:08:18.080 Joseph Good: more experience on, yeah, like, actually getting in the weeds and building. I know there’s a ton of stuff, like, to learn in that realm, so to speak, but I just remember, like.
63 00:08:18.240 ⇒ 00:08:30.179 Joseph Good: you’re kind of referencing how you guys are running your sprints, and just, like, running it like an engineering org, so to speak. And I don’t have much, like, previous experience in that, so I think, like.
64 00:08:30.570 ⇒ 00:08:41.290 Joseph Good: regardless of Brain Forge or not, like, that’s what I’m really trying to upskill in personally over the next, like, 6 to 9 months, really, before graduation.
65 00:08:41.630 ⇒ 00:08:42.970 Joseph Good: And…
66 00:08:43.679 ⇒ 00:08:56.000 Joseph Good: Yeah, I mean, I have actually a client, that I’m currently working with. They are, like, a growth consulting firm for companies that are trying to sell to PE in the next, like, 6 to 12 months.
67 00:08:56.390 ⇒ 00:09:08.329 Joseph Good: So I’ve been doing some work, for them, like, hopefully in the later stages of a pilot with them right now. So, like, hopefully would bring them on board, for, like, a retainer.
68 00:09:08.680 ⇒ 00:09:14.030 Joseph Good: And then I’m, like, talking with a couple other potential clients right now, but really just, like.
69 00:09:14.720 ⇒ 00:09:28.390 Joseph Good: trying to jump in the fire, so to speak, you know, obviously learning while doing with these clients, and then, to the extent that there was any opportunity to… for us to do some stuff together, I had the general, like, super rough.
70 00:09:29.160 ⇒ 00:09:32.080 Joseph Good: Framing of, like, if you guys need help on…
71 00:09:32.760 ⇒ 00:09:45.559 Joseph Good: really just, like, an IC. Like, I would love to… to help out, and, like, learn from your team, on the projects, whatnot. I think, like, can add an extra…
72 00:09:45.710 ⇒ 00:09:48.860 Joseph Good: Hungry, like, somewhat context, …
73 00:09:49.380 ⇒ 00:09:59.449 Joseph Good: like, I’ve kind of been doing this stuff for a bit, so, like, not coming in completely blind, hopefully we’ll be able to help out and, you know, ramp up relatively quickly.
74 00:09:59.450 ⇒ 00:09:59.780 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
75 00:09:59.780 ⇒ 00:10:04.289 Joseph Good: And then also, like, from, I suppose, the value side of my things, like.
76 00:10:05.370 ⇒ 00:10:10.149 Joseph Good: You know, just treat it like a contracting gig, and …
77 00:10:10.260 ⇒ 00:10:28.029 Joseph Good: learn a lot also, just in terms of, like, how to actually, you know, properly run engineering sprints, and kind of, like, get more into the technical side of things. Because right now, I’m, like, learning it all on my own, which is obviously great, but when you’re… it’s different when you’re, like, building an NADN workflow, just sort of….
78 00:10:28.030 ⇒ 00:10:28.899 Uttam Kumaran: Totally, dude.
79 00:10:28.900 ⇒ 00:10:29.410 Joseph Good: learning.
80 00:10:29.410 ⇒ 00:10:37.720 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, like, the only reason I got into it is because I had my own problems in the business, and I solved those, and so, like, yeah, it’s…
81 00:10:37.930 ⇒ 00:10:46.100 Uttam Kumaran: you could go from, like, yeah, can I build a little simple, like, Gmail label or thing to, like, oh, shit, this, like, needs to work? So… Yeah. Yeah.
82 00:10:46.430 ⇒ 00:10:54.199 Uttam Kumaran: Okay, so here’s kind of, like, where we’re at and, like, kind of what I think could be cool. So, as I mentioned, we have
83 00:10:54.870 ⇒ 00:10:58.199 Uttam Kumaran: On the AI side, like, we have…
84 00:10:58.360 ⇒ 00:11:14.339 Uttam Kumaran: people that are great at AI engineering that, I think you could totally learn, like, literally everything you describe from, and way more. Additionally, we are an engineering firm, so everything that you would want
85 00:11:14.340 ⇒ 00:11:28.810 Uttam Kumaran: To kind of learn about, like, how do you run stand-ups, grooming, sprints, project updates, like, everything on… and then also, like, on observability, alerting, pushing code reviews, like.
86 00:11:28.810 ⇒ 00:11:39.349 Uttam Kumaran: We do all of that. That, I think, you’ll get exposure to. Where I think we need the most help is we kind of need someone that wants to be a little bit of, like.
87 00:11:39.920 ⇒ 00:11:50.750 Uttam Kumaran: a bridge between the AI engineers and the clients. I would hesitate to label this as, like, project management, because…
88 00:11:50.870 ⇒ 00:11:54.210 Uttam Kumaran: It sort of boxes you into that, but…
89 00:11:54.620 ⇒ 00:12:01.010 Uttam Kumaran: Right now, the project management that we have, what they’re really good at is organization.
90 00:12:01.100 ⇒ 00:12:04.049 Uttam Kumaran: What they’re not good at is they don’t have, like.
91 00:12:04.110 ⇒ 00:12:26.530 Uttam Kumaran: the technical expertise, right? And so, to give you context, like, I actually was a product manager and led product, so… but I was… I’m an engineer first, so the empathy that I got, which was, like, I could do that role, is that I knew how everything works. But one thing that I think that our current, like, PM crew lacks is that, and it’s not their fault, it’s… this is just, like, you can only…
92 00:12:26.620 ⇒ 00:12:36.400 Uttam Kumaran: typically, you become a project manager, and that’s what you do, is that they lack that sort of intermediate role, where they’re… you’re almost, like, somewhere in between. Like, I think…
93 00:12:36.510 ⇒ 00:12:47.270 Uttam Kumaran: solutions architect is, like, someone in between, but, like, that’s kind of where I think we have a fit. To give you an example, let’s take, …
94 00:12:47.960 ⇒ 00:13:09.899 Uttam Kumaran: let’s say something like, like, like, like Interlude, like, let’s take something like… So, for example, there, there is, there are, like, very technical things that we’re doing, like, we built a Notion integration, we have everything run on N8N, we need a file upload, we have a stack integration, right? But our AI engineering team is great at building all that. What I think they really lack on, and this is something that they will learn over time, is
95 00:13:09.900 ⇒ 00:13:18.969 Uttam Kumaran: translating that to a client, like, doing that demo, and getting feedback on, like, do you like this? What do you like? What don’t you like? What else can we build?
96 00:13:18.970 ⇒ 00:13:24.000 Uttam Kumaran: So that is slightly project management, it’s also kind of like…
97 00:13:24.260 ⇒ 00:13:38.690 Uttam Kumaran: client relationship, account executive, solutions architect, so… I don’t know, like, I’m probably butchering what this title is, just because, like, I’m sure there’s a word for it, but it’s something like that, where I think…
98 00:13:39.200 ⇒ 00:13:52.100 Uttam Kumaran: I would love to see if you could help us be that gap between the clients and the AI engineering team, but less in a project management, more in, like, a delivery lead kind of, like.
99 00:13:52.260 ⇒ 00:13:53.270 Uttam Kumaran: sense.
100 00:13:54.350 ⇒ 00:13:55.190 Joseph Good: Yeah.
101 00:13:55.300 ⇒ 00:13:57.740 Joseph Good: Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, I think, like.
102 00:13:58.050 ⇒ 00:14:01.780 Joseph Good: Obviously, as I mentioned earlier, just, like, looking to…
103 00:14:02.160 ⇒ 00:14:06.219 Joseph Good: yeah, learn and whatnot, so I think it would be helpful even just as much training.
104 00:14:06.220 ⇒ 00:14:11.159 Uttam Kumaran: Pick off, like, you’ll be aware of all the tickets they’re working on, so you’ll be able to pick off
105 00:14:11.320 ⇒ 00:14:30.080 Uttam Kumaran: things, or basically be like, hey, I would love… like, you’ll just get assigned work if you want to take on the work, and then you can say, hey, I would love to pair… like, Casey is someone on our team, you could say, hey, Casey, I want to pair with you on… on this ticket, can you walk me through how you would build it? So you’ll learn everything. But the… the reason I want… I think that’s a better approach is that…
106 00:14:30.110 ⇒ 00:14:33.520 Uttam Kumaran: the pace is very high. I don’t want you to get jammed.
107 00:14:33.560 ⇒ 00:14:34.330 Uttam Kumaran: ….
108 00:14:34.330 ⇒ 00:14:34.780 Joseph Good: Yeah.
109 00:14:34.780 ⇒ 00:14:46.330 Uttam Kumaran: And instead, I want you to kind of, like… your superpower, I think, right now is that you have a really good, like, cursory understanding of all the tools and technology involved, but you also can discuss it.
110 00:14:46.330 ⇒ 00:14:51.249 Uttam Kumaran: So, like, I think for me, I’m the only person right now in the business that has
111 00:14:51.250 ⇒ 00:15:07.219 Uttam Kumaran: that skill set as well. We have someone that’s leading our AI engineering team, his name is Sam, but he’s also very technical, so his job is more like technical excellence and being the first line of defense on technical escalations. That’s also something I was doing before, so I kind of handed that off.
112 00:15:07.270 ⇒ 00:15:11.259 Uttam Kumaran: What I’m still having to do on a lot of clients is…
113 00:15:11.530 ⇒ 00:15:25.830 Uttam Kumaran: both explain what we’re trying to build, why, the tools we’re using, and kind of demo. Because this is a brand new field, dude, like, nobody knows. Like, in data, people know what we’re doing.
114 00:15:25.850 ⇒ 00:15:35.459 Uttam Kumaran: This field, we’re going to clients, they don’t know anything about the tooling, how long it’s gonna take. They often butcher the requirements, too, because they don’t even know what’s possible.
115 00:15:35.630 ⇒ 00:15:41.690 Uttam Kumaran: So, it’s, like, a little bit more of an art here, and I’m doing that work, where I’m kind of, like.
116 00:15:42.490 ⇒ 00:15:58.899 Uttam Kumaran: delivering the solution, having that sort of consultative approach. And then, of course, like, I know the technical stuff as good as I can right now, and so I’m a good bridge to the engine on, like, what priorities, how to polish the demo, things like that.
117 00:16:00.730 ⇒ 00:16:06.139 Joseph Good: Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, I think it’s, like… Everything you said, …
118 00:16:06.500 ⇒ 00:16:12.729 Joseph Good: is sort of what I’m looking for. So, I think it’d be a great spot to, like, start off at, and like you said, maybe eventually, like, pick up
119 00:16:12.830 ⇒ 00:16:18.830 Joseph Good: Tickets over time, and … yeah, not starting in a full, like, end role.
120 00:16:19.540 ⇒ 00:16:21.960 Joseph Good: to start off, as to not pitch downstairs.
121 00:16:21.960 ⇒ 00:16:25.740 Uttam Kumaran: to do both, I’m telling you, like, you don’t want to be just…
122 00:16:25.910 ⇒ 00:16:36.410 Uttam Kumaran: like, the AI engineer role, I think, is really sexy, but what is the hottest role is, like, doing both that and, like, sitting with the client and
123 00:16:36.460 ⇒ 00:16:53.990 Uttam Kumaran: going on-site and being like, what else can we automate around here? Like, our AI engineers don’t do that. Like, they’re taking tickets that are created by myself and our project manager. Like, they’re not on the ideation part, which I can tell, I think, like, that’s… that is what I’m gonna say is, like.
124 00:16:54.640 ⇒ 00:17:08.510 Uttam Kumaran: not a lot of people can do that. Like, that’s gonna be what’s in demand. I think that, plus having a really good technical foundation, is the key. I wouldn’t… I would try to, like…
125 00:17:09.069 ⇒ 00:17:13.419 Uttam Kumaran: bridge those, like, sit in between those. That’s… that’s, like, a sweet spot.
126 00:17:13.800 ⇒ 00:17:15.489 Uttam Kumaran: Not many people can do that. Yeah, for sure.
127 00:17:16.540 ⇒ 00:17:22.099 Joseph Good: Yeah, absolutely. … Bray, yeah, I mean, what… what were you thinking in terms of, like.
128 00:17:22.430 ⇒ 00:17:25.549 Joseph Good: Timeline of when it’s good for you to start to.
129 00:17:25.550 ⇒ 00:17:35.669 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I guess, like, kind of two things… two things that would be helpful. One is, like, give me a sense of, like, how much time you have available. I mean, for all of the folks we bring on.
130 00:17:35.670 ⇒ 00:17:49.609 Uttam Kumaran: We try to start small, so that you get a sense of, like, what it’s like to work with us. You get to meet, of course, the team, maybe take on, like, just one client in this thing, and then, also, like, we get a chance to work with you, and then we would sort of
131 00:17:49.750 ⇒ 00:18:06.030 Uttam Kumaran: move up from there, and then give me a sense of, like, what you’re looking for rate-wise. I have to go, like, we do budgets, so I have to go get it approved, and sort of plan within, like, what our budget is for our AI team, but that would be sort of the next step on my side.
132 00:18:06.690 ⇒ 00:18:16.159 Joseph Good: Yeah, definitely. From a budget, or from a, excuse me, calendar standpoint, … I think, I mean…
133 00:18:17.820 ⇒ 00:18:22.969 Joseph Good: I’d probably say, like, just as I’m managing this other client, I’m trying to run through the other stuff.
134 00:18:23.290 ⇒ 00:18:23.690 Uttam Kumaran: Okay.
135 00:18:23.690 ⇒ 00:18:25.840 Joseph Good: Like, maybe, maybe for starting, like.
136 00:18:26.450 ⇒ 00:18:30.940 Joseph Good: 10 to 15, probably ramping to, like, 20 to 25, eventually.
137 00:18:30.940 ⇒ 00:18:31.430 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
138 00:18:31.430 ⇒ 00:18:31.900 Joseph Good: Even if.
139 00:18:31.900 ⇒ 00:18:43.659 Uttam Kumaran: Even if you want to start at, like… we try to do a minimum of, like, 10 hours, it’s just, like, it’s so hard to do anything in, like, 5 hours a time. If that’s something you could manage, then that would be…
140 00:18:43.930 ⇒ 00:18:45.020 Uttam Kumaran: like, ideal.
141 00:18:45.940 ⇒ 00:18:51.199 Joseph Good: Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think if we start with 10, and then, you know, with the goal of ramping up, I think that’d be, like.
142 00:18:51.480 ⇒ 00:18:52.749 Joseph Good: You know, a good spot.
143 00:18:53.110 ⇒ 00:18:57.750 Joseph Good: In terms of, like, a rate standpoint, I mean… I…
144 00:19:00.220 ⇒ 00:19:04.559 Joseph Good: I mean, dude, I’m not… I ain’ for the money, of course, so, ….
145 00:19:04.560 ⇒ 00:19:10.270 Uttam Kumaran: Well, tell me, like, tell me, like, where you’re at now, tell me, like, where you want to be, and then let me…
146 00:19:10.370 ⇒ 00:19:29.649 Uttam Kumaran: like, here’s kind of, like, our side. Like, one, of course, we’re, like, completely bootstrapped, so I’m not… it’s tough for us to pay insane top dollar, but that is our goal. And so, we want to have people that don’t see this as, like, hey, I want to come in here, and then I want to, like.
147 00:19:29.930 ⇒ 00:19:39.150 Uttam Kumaran: jump to the next thing, and we’ve had people like that, and it’s been hard, because they treat our work really transactionally, and we’re in client service, like.
148 00:19:39.440 ⇒ 00:19:51.600 Uttam Kumaran: It’s not like working inside a company. Like, the client has to win, but for the clients to win, from my perspective, our team has to be very, very motivated. So money is a factor, but it’s also, like.
149 00:19:52.270 ⇒ 00:20:05.790 Uttam Kumaran: being able to actually do great work, not get micromanaged, and we’re not assholes, so, like, those are all factors. But, like, let me know, like, what you think, let me know where you would want to be, and then I can get back to you.
150 00:20:06.690 ⇒ 00:20:10.060 Joseph Good: Yeah, for sure. I guess for context, and I’m…
151 00:20:10.260 ⇒ 00:20:14.849 Joseph Good: yeah, I guess it’s shooting in the dark a bit, but I’m currently…
152 00:20:15.250 ⇒ 00:20:24.479 Joseph Good: my current, like, engagement with my client, he’s coming in at, like, $83 an hour for me. I don’t, like… I think that’s a bit… bit high, probably, like, I wouldn’t…
153 00:20:25.020 ⇒ 00:20:37.259 Joseph Good: I wouldn’t ask that of you, so to speak. I was honestly a little surprised when he was, down for that, with me personally, but I was like, okay, great. So maybe just, like, something…
154 00:20:37.380 ⇒ 00:20:47.589 Joseph Good: less than that, honestly. Okay. Probably something a little bit north of, of, you know, 20 to 25, but, doesn’t need to be, like, too much…
155 00:20:47.670 ⇒ 00:20:59.279 Joseph Good: north of that, I guess, so to speak. So, honestly, dude, like, I’m flexible, just, like, stoked to… stoked to… to work together in some capacity, so not… not, like, trying to drive a hard, … yeah, hard number or anything.
156 00:20:59.280 ⇒ 00:21:08.780 Uttam Kumaran: No, I appreciate that. And, like, for me on my side, if you come in and you’re able to take me off of some of these, like.
157 00:21:09.480 ⇒ 00:21:16.190 Uttam Kumaran: doing the client… like, here’s another example. We’re working with this company called Default, I don’t know if you’ve heard about them.
158 00:21:16.380 ⇒ 00:21:19.020 Joseph Good: Oh, yeah, they’re, like, big, and …
159 00:21:19.020 ⇒ 00:21:29.279 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah. They’re really, really big in go-to-market, so my friend leads product there, and so they’re one of our clients. We’re building a lot of… we’re doing a couple things for them. One of it is actually, like.
160 00:21:29.490 ⇒ 00:21:47.750 Uttam Kumaran: Basically, we built, like, a Clay workflow, and … and this is, like, it’s a bunch of stuff within there, but we’re also, … basically, one of their core products is Forms. And so we build, like, a Clay agent and a browser-based workflow that goes into leads from Salesforce, fills out
161 00:21:47.750 ⇒ 00:22:01.780 Uttam Kumaran: forms, and identifies what tools they’re using for the entire scheduling process for demos. Because as part of their sales process, they go and say, are you guys using Chili Piper? Are you using HubSpot? Are you using Marketo?
162 00:22:01.780 ⇒ 00:22:02.220 Joseph Good: Okay.
163 00:22:02.220 ⇒ 00:22:11.220 Uttam Kumaran: we can… we can… we’re totally way better than them. Like, you should move over. But, like, that takes a while to go in and figure that out. Like, you have to go in, log…
164 00:22:11.270 ⇒ 00:22:29.649 Uttam Kumaran: fill out the form, look at the HTML, find the thing. So we’ve completely automated that. And now, all of their sales contacts in Hub… in Salesforce has a field that lists what tools they’re using, which is what gives you a way better, like, cold email and, like, the talking points, right?
165 00:22:29.650 ⇒ 00:22:42.499 Uttam Kumaran: So that’s an example, but can I give you… can I give you a sense? Like, the AI engineers on my team have no clue about, like, the business impact of that. But they can build anything on planet Earth, right? So I’m the only one that I’m like.
166 00:22:42.560 ⇒ 00:22:59.189 Uttam Kumaran: Okay, so we need this to end up in Salesforce as properties, so we need, probably, like, here’s the clay table, okay, let’s try it with the Klagen. If ClayGen doesn’t work, we’ll move the browser base. Here’s, like, what I need to see, we need to spot check, then we need to scale it up. Those are all the things where I’m that bridge.
167 00:22:59.570 ⇒ 00:23:00.710 Uttam Kumaran: And, like.
168 00:23:00.950 ⇒ 00:23:18.009 Uttam Kumaran: I don’t know, I can’t keep… I can’t… we just… there’s not… we don’t have another person on the team that is that business bridge, where you kind of know the go-to-market engineering, but you can translate it to the team. But this is where I like your perspective, in that a lot of people in go… in go-to-market engineering, they’re like, well, I’ll just hack something together.
169 00:23:18.150 ⇒ 00:23:30.549 Uttam Kumaran: That’s, I think, like, selling yourself short. In fact, you want to have an AI team behind you, and of course, you want to be able to build some stuff too, but because they can build it way better.
170 00:23:30.780 ⇒ 00:23:37.560 Uttam Kumaran: And they’ll build something that’s, like, that works, like, incredibly well, but they… what they lack is the context.
171 00:23:37.860 ⇒ 00:23:49.090 Uttam Kumaran: And so there has to be this, like, bridge between the client and this team, and it is honestly kind of, like, more of a solutions architect. Like, in typical consulting.
172 00:23:49.550 ⇒ 00:24:08.700 Uttam Kumaran: this is typically a solutions architect, right? But if we’re taking on a go to… if we’re taking on a client where the work is this sort of GTM engineering, which is just one example, like, we have other stuff where we’re building co… we’re building co-pilots for, we’re building agentic systems, but either way.
173 00:24:08.700 ⇒ 00:24:12.139 Uttam Kumaran: I think that a great bridge for you is sort of, like.
174 00:24:12.140 ⇒ 00:24:24.619 Uttam Kumaran: moving into, like, some type of solutions architect on the AI side. Like, I think your skill set currently is in go-to-market engineering, but because you’re aware of N8N, and you’re aware of, sort of, what agents can do.
175 00:24:24.900 ⇒ 00:24:32.780 Uttam Kumaran: I think you’ll naturally see a bridge to other parts of our company where we’re doing AI work, too. So that’s kind of, like, what my path would be, and…
176 00:24:32.820 ⇒ 00:24:45.250 Uttam Kumaran: Certainly, I think we can get you, what you’re looking for today, and then over time, like, for a lot of folks, what we do is, if it works out with us, we put together, like, a growth plan, and we’re like, okay.
177 00:24:45.250 ⇒ 00:24:59.900 Uttam Kumaran: for me, really, I’m telling you, the core KPI for me is mailing our clients and getting me out of meetings. That is, like, the number one KPI right now, so I can go… I can go sell, and I can continue to put out fires.
178 00:24:59.960 ⇒ 00:25:05.160 Uttam Kumaran: The next KPI is continuing to take on more challenging work.
179 00:25:05.320 ⇒ 00:25:06.570 Uttam Kumaran: …
180 00:25:06.830 ⇒ 00:25:23.929 Uttam Kumaran: And, like, if we can accomplish both of those things, I think there’s a great path here for that person. I’m just… I really like your background, and I like that you’re interested in going the engineering side. Many people are not interested in that, and so I think, you know, I have a good feeling, like, it could work out.
181 00:25:24.990 ⇒ 00:25:41.020 Joseph Good: Yeah, absolutely. Definitely aligned on everything you said, but yeah, feel free to let me know, like, what you think is fair in terms of, sounds like we’re good with the 10 hours a week to start, but yeah, feel free to let me know what you think is fair in terms of, like, rate, and then,
182 00:25:41.290 ⇒ 00:25:44.830 Joseph Good: In terms of title, I mean, I’m pretty, like…
183 00:25:45.130 ⇒ 00:25:53.120 Joseph Good: doesn’t, like, really matter as much to me. I guess, like, from a personal branding standpoint, I’m trying to transition over a little bit from just, like.
184 00:25:53.270 ⇒ 00:25:59.510 Joseph Good: pure growth on a title standpoint to some sort of more, like, technical-ish role.
185 00:25:59.510 ⇒ 00:25:59.830 Uttam Kumaran: It’s like.
186 00:25:59.830 ⇒ 00:26:05.840 Joseph Good: I’m trying to create the narrative of, like, okay, like, I’m not just, you know, cold email demand gen.
187 00:26:05.840 ⇒ 00:26:06.560 Uttam Kumaran: God.
188 00:26:06.560 ⇒ 00:26:09.340 Joseph Good: Yeah, so to speak. Let me, let me….
189 00:26:09.340 ⇒ 00:26:22.369 Uttam Kumaran: Let me think about… let me think about what that could be on our side, and get back to you. I’ll… I’m… I don’t… I’m not, like, someone who thinks, like, we don’t have a ton of opinion on that, but we are starting to have…
190 00:26:22.710 ⇒ 00:26:30.060 Uttam Kumaran: kind of, like, some bifurcation of roles, so I want to check with our, delivery team first, and then get them to approve something.
191 00:26:30.620 ⇒ 00:26:31.340 Joseph Good: For sure.
192 00:26:32.250 ⇒ 00:26:42.009 Joseph Good: Great. Cool. I mean, yeah, that sounds good. Let me, … I’ll just, I guess, wait to hear back from you on those things, and then we can start to move forward. That works for you.
193 00:26:42.890 ⇒ 00:26:44.390 Uttam Kumaran: Okay, perfect.
194 00:26:45.280 ⇒ 00:26:54.599 Joseph Good: Alright, awesome. I hope the demo goes later today, I’ll… I will back-channel with, with Matthew to see what the… what the word is, but I’m sure it’s gonna… Thank you. I’m sure it’s gonna go great.
195 00:26:54.840 ⇒ 00:26:57.440 Uttam Kumaran: Thank you, yeah, I’m excited too.
196 00:26:57.650 ⇒ 00:26:59.409 Joseph Good: Alright, have a good one, man.
197 00:26:59.410 ⇒ 00:27:02.139 Uttam Kumaran: Alright. Appreciate it, have a good one. Bye.