Meeting Title: Brainforge Project Management Strategy Discussion Date: 2025-08-26 Meeting participants: Justin Breshears, Uttam Kumaran
WEBVTT
1 00:10:21.470 ⇒ 00:10:22.740 Uttam Kumaran: Hey, Justin.
2 00:10:22.990 ⇒ 00:10:23.730 Justin Breshears: Hey!
3 00:10:24.340 ⇒ 00:10:25.479 Uttam Kumaran: Hey, how are ya?
4 00:10:25.760 ⇒ 00:10:30.639 Justin Breshears: Oh, I’m good, just been… Bopping back and forth between meetings, you know how it is.
5 00:10:30.740 ⇒ 00:10:32.240 Uttam Kumaran: Yes, sorry, I just….
6 00:10:32.240 ⇒ 00:10:32.610 Justin Breshears: Sorry.
7 00:10:32.840 ⇒ 00:10:52.439 Uttam Kumaran: thought my last meeting was gonna end, and it just kept going. It’s… the problem with me is every meeting’s important, so it’s not like… I’m not in many, like, fly-on-the-wall meetings. I’m usually the main… the main… I’m the reason the meeting’s happening, or I’m there to say something, so it’s…
8 00:10:52.490 ⇒ 00:10:54.859 Uttam Kumaran: Sometimes not easy to find, so… I can imagine, yeah.
9 00:10:54.860 ⇒ 00:10:58.460 Justin Breshears: Yeah, no problem at all. Sorry I had to jump earlier.
10 00:10:58.460 ⇒ 00:10:59.730 Uttam Kumaran: No, no, no, no problem.
11 00:10:59.730 ⇒ 00:11:04.510 Justin Breshears: But, yeah, appreciate the flexibility. I mainly wanted to…
12 00:11:04.510 ⇒ 00:11:23.779 Justin Breshears: just kind of dive in a little bit to what y’all are currently doing. Sure. The number types of projects that you’re looking at, what kind of challenges you’re facing, you know, stuff like that. I’m really… there’s things I don’t think I’ve gotten a real chance to dig into kind of what y’all are currently doing, and then when you’re… where you’re hoping to go with this role.
13 00:11:24.080 ⇒ 00:11:42.349 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, thank you, and I appreciate it. I think, you know, a lot of people in interviews, I try to tell our team that a business relationship with a company is two ways, and they should push us as much as the company tends to push them, and I was recently an employee. I was always, like, me versus the corporation.
14 00:11:42.370 ⇒ 00:12:00.470 Uttam Kumaran: now that I’m in the company seat, I try to tell, like, I… even for our team, people don’t even negotiate, or like, they don’t… and I’m like, hey, you guys need to do this, even if you think we’re honest, you should do this as just a healthy habit, and so I’m happy to answer, you know, any questions about… about our business. So.
15 00:12:00.470 ⇒ 00:12:17.180 Uttam Kumaran: The business primarily started as a data analytics company, so we have been… my background has been in, sort of, setting up entire data stacks, so data warehouses, data modeling, using dbt, we do a lot of snowflake work, we do a lot of BI reporting, so Tableau, Looker.
16 00:12:17.410 ⇒ 00:12:22.560 Uttam Kumaran: And then really, like, I would say our secret sauce, even though all those are important, is really on, like.
17 00:12:22.740 ⇒ 00:12:28.720 Uttam Kumaran: KPI and executive strategy. So, my background and my business partner, Robert, we have worked
18 00:12:28.880 ⇒ 00:12:32.820 Uttam Kumaran: Sort of as senior data folks, working directly with the executive suite.
19 00:12:33.170 ⇒ 00:12:45.560 Uttam Kumaran: in the C-suite at many companies. So, we typically sell into that part of the organization, and then we either… a lot… all of our engagements start off as typically strategy or audits.
20 00:12:45.560 ⇒ 00:12:56.860 Uttam Kumaran: Of their current stack, their current data systems, what’s going wrong. And then for some clients, they graduate into longer, sort of, delivery, where we can isolate, you know, outcomes and build towards that.
21 00:12:56.860 ⇒ 00:13:16.560 Uttam Kumaran: But really, again, I think we’re not at all close to what people would describe as just, like, a dev shop, or we’re coming in and doing a lot of staff aug. All of our engagements are our own, typically. There are some situations where we are coming with another agency that’s maybe one of our partners that just may be an adjacent or somewhere else in the stack.
22 00:13:16.570 ⇒ 00:13:22.469 Uttam Kumaran: But we are coming and representing Brainforge. So these are entirely owned paper on our side.
23 00:13:22.470 ⇒ 00:13:32.520 Uttam Kumaran: A lot of the… so, the business originally was mainly coming in, working directly with executive teams, and then kind of setting up whatever part of the stack we needed to get the job done.
24 00:13:32.520 ⇒ 00:13:48.539 Uttam Kumaran: whether they were having trouble centralizing all their data, because… and they had some mistakes in reporting, whether they’re moving from something legacy to, like, a Snowflake or a BigQuery, or whether they’re issuing some… they have some new business that, or new service line that they’re going to market with, and
25 00:13:48.540 ⇒ 00:13:55.840 Uttam Kumaran: They need to get the data from there, they need to write pipelines to do that. There’s also people we come into where they have an existing system.
26 00:13:55.980 ⇒ 00:14:08.960 Uttam Kumaran: But someone left, or it’s sort of a mishmash of contractors in there, like freelance folks, nobody really hugs the problem. That’s where we come in. So when I come in, I’m like, you throw me, like, into whatever the
27 00:14:09.550 ⇒ 00:14:21.799 Uttam Kumaran: the hottest burning fire is sort of deal. I will tell you what is a data and AI problem that I can solve, but either way, I’ll recommend vendors, other partners, or at least give you a way out. And so.
28 00:14:22.010 ⇒ 00:14:33.180 Uttam Kumaran: when we talk to our clients, we try to talk purely about outcomes, right? Like, how can we get you towards an outcome, which is, at the baseline for a business, it’s either more money.
29 00:14:33.180 ⇒ 00:14:42.259 Uttam Kumaran: or lower costs. A lot of our focus tends to be on the more money part, so either more revenue or more profit. So that’s just the baseline. How we do it is improve reporting.
30 00:14:42.260 ⇒ 00:14:58.180 Uttam Kumaran: We may help you go to market faster, we may help you understand profit lines better, we may understand the impact of marketing costs and how do you optimize that. So those are, like, the nitty-gritty ways that we do that. But for us, we…
31 00:14:58.180 ⇒ 00:15:11.600 Uttam Kumaran: We tend to go into companies that are mid-market, so these are typically 20 to 100 million in revenue, so not startups, for the most part, so folks that are not kind of battling with pre-revenue, pre-product, or product-market fit.
32 00:15:11.600 ⇒ 00:15:26.400 Uttam Kumaran: But also folks that want to grow. So these aren’t companies where we’re walking in, they’re like, we want to cut half our headcount, and we need you to come in and help us do that. That’s not the type of business we go into. We go into people that are tech-forward, that are ambitious, and that want to grow fast.
33 00:15:26.430 ⇒ 00:15:33.549 Uttam Kumaran: Our shovels to do that are data and AI. And more recently has been the AI piece.
34 00:15:33.610 ⇒ 00:15:38.310 Uttam Kumaran: But maybe I’ll just pause there on the data side. I can talk about, like, how we got to the AI stuff.
35 00:15:38.570 ⇒ 00:15:44.210 Uttam Kumaran: I’m also just… this is just all I do, so I’m happy to… I’ll just keep rambling about what we do and who we are.
36 00:15:44.210 ⇒ 00:15:44.750 Justin Breshears: Yeah, so….
37 00:15:44.750 ⇒ 00:15:45.930 Uttam Kumaran: Happy to share.
38 00:15:45.930 ⇒ 00:15:49.330 Justin Breshears: I love it. It’s fascinating, and it’s good to know.
39 00:15:50.120 ⇒ 00:16:03.109 Justin Breshears: Okay, so you’re kind of targeting these 20 to 100 million companies. They’re probably growing so fast at this point that some of this data stuff gets by the wayside, and it’s a little outdated, and can’t keep up.
40 00:16:03.110 ⇒ 00:16:17.339 Uttam Kumaran: Either they have nothing, like, they’ve gotten to that scale, and you can… there’s some business models where you can get to that revenue scale, but your profitability can be low, but you can still run everything off of, like, a bunch of spreadsheets or crappy ERP. There’s also some businesses where
41 00:16:17.410 ⇒ 00:16:27.609 Uttam Kumaran: like, typically B2B SaaS at that level, they usually have a lot of their systems figured out, so it’s more of, like, an enterprise data problem. But usually, either they’ve tried… they’ve…
42 00:16:27.690 ⇒ 00:16:44.670 Uttam Kumaran: they have nobody there, or they have, like, some other people that are sort of managing data that’s not their traditional roles, or they’ve tried to solve it, and they have not nailed it. What are their alternatives? Their alternatives to go higher. Typically, in the US, you’re getting a data engineer or anyone sophisticated in data, it’s at least
43 00:16:44.910 ⇒ 00:16:53.359 Uttam Kumaran: 100 to 150 grand base, so that’s not including everything all in. And you can’t just, like, hire one of those people, you need, like.
44 00:16:53.360 ⇒ 00:17:10.020 Uttam Kumaran: project managers, head of data, right? That engineer is not the person that’s, like, reporting to the exec team and reporting on how this is all working. To bring on a team our size, where you’re getting head of data support, project management, and the engineers that are flexible, right? We can bring in data engineering for the first part of a thing, then
45 00:17:10.150 ⇒ 00:17:15.799 Uttam Kumaran: These are typically probably, like, half a mil all in, and it would probably take 3 to 6 months to ramp.
46 00:17:16.170 ⇒ 00:17:34.200 Uttam Kumaran: That’s a huge expense, right? And I know because I’ve hired, built these teams, so there’s no avoiding that, and I think it’s just getting harder to hire. Like, it’s not… even though, yes, there’s a lot of supply, very difficult to find people that have done this more than once or twice, and can communicate really well.
47 00:17:34.250 ⇒ 00:17:46.229 Uttam Kumaran: like, I know, because we also hire for our business, you know, a lot. So, this is what I tell clients, it’s like, your options are really limited. Also, like, you can start with us on Monday and fire us on Friday if we’re not good.
48 00:17:46.230 ⇒ 00:18:01.560 Uttam Kumaran: I don’t care. I believe in what we do, and so we’re not gonna lie… we… of course, we sign longer-term engagements, but there’s a 30-day out on most of those. They can negotiate that down if they want to. Like, we’ve… the reason we’re even in this business is because we believe in our deliverables.
49 00:18:01.560 ⇒ 00:18:10.599 Uttam Kumaran: Right? Everything else is optimizing our sales, delivery, but we are really confident in the data services that we do, and we’ve never compromised on the quality
50 00:18:11.050 ⇒ 00:18:24.200 Uttam Kumaran: of that, right? Because we came from that engineering side, and my background and Robert, my business partner, his background is in product analytics. So both of us have come from the implementation side first, versus coming from, like.
51 00:18:24.340 ⇒ 00:18:36.060 Uttam Kumaran: I’ve done 5 consultancies before, let’s just run a consultancy. Like, that’s what we’re… we’re sort of figuring that piece out. I don’t know what the right angle is, but that is our… our angle, you know?
52 00:18:36.060 ⇒ 00:18:36.690 Justin Breshears: Yeah.
53 00:18:36.950 ⇒ 00:18:41.730 Justin Breshears: So in these projects, I mean, I kind of walk through how our projects are structured. Is this similar, or how are you structuring.
54 00:18:41.730 ⇒ 00:18:47.830 Uttam Kumaran: Similar, similar. I mean, I… of course, like, we’re… we’re 15 people, so definitely different scale, but I would say
55 00:18:48.070 ⇒ 00:19:01.400 Uttam Kumaran: having folks like Alex, and myself, who I’m very opinionated about, like, sort of our PMO and project process, we are actually a lot closer to that than… even hearing that makes me happy, because we’re not, like, so far off.
56 00:19:01.400 ⇒ 00:19:09.500 Uttam Kumaran: Where we have, sort of, that handoff process between sales, and the PM team. We then do allocations, so
57 00:19:09.660 ⇒ 00:19:23.189 Uttam Kumaran: like, after this meeting, we have, like, a monthly allocation where we look at… we review all the hours for this month and allocate engineers. All the lead engineers are in that meeting, so we look at every client, who’s allocated to which.
58 00:19:23.380 ⇒ 00:19:33.940 Uttam Kumaran: We then have those kickoffs, we set together a project plan, we use linear for project management, but we create milestones, epics, things like that, get that approved, …
59 00:19:34.130 ⇒ 00:19:36.709 Uttam Kumaran: I will say, though, like, we don’t… we don’t…
60 00:19:37.580 ⇒ 00:19:44.649 Uttam Kumaran: use that as a barrier to start doing something. So for me, like, I also know what it’s like to bring on consultants, I’ve hired consultants before.
61 00:19:44.650 ⇒ 00:19:57.829 Uttam Kumaran: like, I don’t want to… I told Amber and the PM team that I’m always gonna be probably, like, the biggest fan and the biggest enemy to this team, because I’m gonna find a way for us to give a unique
62 00:19:58.060 ⇒ 00:20:04.590 Uttam Kumaran: great service that they’re not gonna get from another consultancy. Part of that is breaking some rules.
63 00:20:04.710 ⇒ 00:20:16.659 Uttam Kumaran: Sometimes, and just, like, starting or giving them a quick win that maybe we can just do in, like, a day, because now we’re doing a lot of AI-enabled things. That may go against some processes, but that’s also
64 00:20:16.670 ⇒ 00:20:32.340 Uttam Kumaran: what it’s like to really go above and beyond. Like, I compare our business to more of, like, a Michelin star restaurant than I do, like, a data consultancy. Like, we’re here for them, like, you want to go above and beyond for the client, and I want to play long-term games.
65 00:20:32.340 ⇒ 00:20:46.929 Uttam Kumaran: not just, like, okay, this is our process, so we have to wait a week for this, we have to wait a week for this, because I know they’re gonna see that, wow, like, these are the… I’ve never worked with consultants like this before that actually care. Those are the types of feelings that I want to get.
66 00:20:47.000 ⇒ 00:20:49.939 Uttam Kumaran: But, like, we do have the typical processes where… and then we…
67 00:20:50.080 ⇒ 00:20:55.850 Uttam Kumaran: I would say the biggest, sort of, place I’m in right now is, as we start to work with larger and larger clients.
68 00:20:55.990 ⇒ 00:21:13.300 Uttam Kumaran: we still have some smaller clients, where… do we need, like, a full agile ceremonies? Are we good with just, like, one stand-up and one planning and then one retro? Like, so we kind of have both a stand-up light option and a agile light and normal option. We have some clients that definitely need that, there’s a lot of people involved.
69 00:21:13.660 ⇒ 00:21:16.749 Uttam Kumaran: So we kind of decide on what we’re running, …
70 00:21:17.120 ⇒ 00:21:30.309 Uttam Kumaran: And then now, as… now that we’re sort of, like, it’s like a Maslow’s hierarchy of, like, needs that are getting taken care of. So, first thing is just, like, does every client have project management operating under the PMO umbrella, even if it’s, like, not great, as long as they’re
71 00:21:30.310 ⇒ 00:21:41.800 Uttam Kumaran: that team is running that. And then we’re going to the next rung. Okay, can we start to look at the PM delivery org on a monthly basis, on a quarterly basis? Can we set margin KPIs, delivery
72 00:21:41.800 ⇒ 00:21:51.139 Uttam Kumaran: you know, speed KPIs, can we start doing NPS and, like, get some client feedback? Those are, I think, the next rung of things that we want to start to do.
73 00:21:51.220 ⇒ 00:21:59.980 Uttam Kumaran: And then there’s a whole host of AI pieces in that that we’re trying to work on as well, but that’s… that’s sort of where we are currently.
74 00:22:00.530 ⇒ 00:22:06.559 Justin Breshears: Yeah, what’s the bandwidth right now for the team? What, like, capacity of, you know, stuff that are you all able to tackle?
75 00:22:06.900 ⇒ 00:22:16.840 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, so we have about 10 clients, I think. I feel like maybe I… this number changes. It’s growing. We have about 10 clients right now. Amber is managing
76 00:22:16.990 ⇒ 00:22:35.590 Uttam Kumaran: like, 3 of them. We have another, PM, Rico. He’s managing a few, and then I’m managing two. The goal is to not have me PM anything, because I’m also… I need to play account exec, and expansion, and sort of firefighter. That’s… that’s my job.
77 00:22:35.650 ⇒ 00:22:39.769 Uttam Kumaran: So, first thing is just make sure that every client ha- is
78 00:22:40.020 ⇒ 00:22:43.280 Uttam Kumaran: tapped by PMs. Some of these are bigger clients, some of these are…
79 00:22:43.470 ⇒ 00:22:50.820 Uttam Kumaran: a lot smaller, so one is I think we’re trying to see, like, what is the appropriate ratio, depending on the client size.
80 00:22:51.030 ⇒ 00:22:57.930 Uttam Kumaran: So that’s our first goal, is to, one, get Robert and I out of the, sort of, day-to-day PM.
81 00:22:58.050 ⇒ 00:23:16.839 Uttam Kumaran: So that we can go sell more. I’m spending probably 50% or more of my time selling, the rest of the time is recruiting and our people internally, and then whatever sliver I have for, like, operations. So that’s, like, where my time needs to go into growing the business. But I would say we’ve… we’ve started to…
82 00:23:17.460 ⇒ 00:23:23.920 Uttam Kumaran: the reason we’re even ex… have the opportunity to expand this role is that we’re just growing really fast. You know, we…
83 00:23:24.200 ⇒ 00:23:39.370 Uttam Kumaran: Previously, like, last year, I would say around this time, we were maybe 5 people. Now we’re about 15 to 20, depending on, like, some fractional folks. We have been signing a new client almost every 2 weeks over the last, like, 6-7 weeks. ….
84 00:23:40.060 ⇒ 00:23:43.959 Justin Breshears: What’s the follow-on, Ray, with those clients? Do they continue to….
85 00:23:43.960 ⇒ 00:23:49.849 Uttam Kumaran: Yes, so most of our engagements start off as 2-4 week audits or, like, discovery packages.
86 00:23:49.850 ⇒ 00:23:50.469 Justin Breshears: Like, assessment.
87 00:23:50.470 ⇒ 00:23:55.229 Uttam Kumaran: These are, like, 5 to 10K. Come on, work with us, see how we work, and then…
88 00:23:55.520 ⇒ 00:24:00.800 Uttam Kumaran: Usually, I would say our benchmark rate for that is, like, 25% usually convert.
89 00:24:01.010 ⇒ 00:24:04.530 Uttam Kumaran: Which is pretty good. I think, actually, our rate is actually a little bit higher than that.
90 00:24:04.680 ⇒ 00:24:21.249 Uttam Kumaran: that’s probably because our volume is so low, and we’re taking every one… every single one pretty seriously, that I think over time, it probably normalizes somewhere between 15% to 25%. But yeah, that’s usually our follow-on rate. That gives us a really great understanding of the client. They meet us.
91 00:24:21.320 ⇒ 00:24:37.019 Uttam Kumaran: we totally… I know that if they see the quality of our work, they’re gonna be really happy. And then we typically… now we’re able to negotiate, you know, mostly, like, 6-month deals, and then my next goal is to try to negotiate 9-month, 12-month, but….
92 00:24:37.700 ⇒ 00:24:38.390 Justin Breshears: That’s huge.
93 00:24:38.390 ⇒ 00:24:55.710 Uttam Kumaran: most of our stuff, we, you know, the company started as all month-to-month, and then we started getting some nice 3-month stuff. We have a couple of six-month now, and … we’ve just, like, learned the art of, like, that part of the sales process, where, okay, like, we want to get people on a longer commitment. Okay, how do we grow the scope a little bit?
94 00:24:55.850 ⇒ 00:25:02.580 Uttam Kumaran: But that’s where I want to spend my time, you know, versus the day-to-day PMing, which is really, really difficult.
95 00:25:03.340 ⇒ 00:25:04.060 Justin Breshears: Yeah.
96 00:25:05.190 ⇒ 00:25:18.559 Justin Breshears: So you have about 15, 20 folks there, a lot of those are PMs, so as far as, like, the engineers and the technical resources, are they, when you sign on, like, a 6-month project, are they going to be fully devoted to that, or are they going to be splitting their time between a few?
97 00:25:18.750 ⇒ 00:25:29.579 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, so of the 15 people, actually, most of the people are engineers. So we only have, like, 2 PMs right now, and most of the engineers are split, at least across 2 clients.
98 00:25:29.680 ⇒ 00:25:30.690 Uttam Kumaran: …
99 00:25:30.820 ⇒ 00:25:47.579 Uttam Kumaran: So this is just based on the scope and the size of our clients. Additionally, like, as we’re starting to use more AI stuff internally, my willingness to have people dedicated to just one account is going down, because we’re now able to execute a lot faster.
100 00:25:47.580 ⇒ 00:26:04.800 Uttam Kumaran: And so, one, that changes the way we price. Like, we’re trying to do as much monthly-based pricing, as possible. It’s a little bit more risk on our side, but it’s a lot more predictable for the clients. I think as we get to the enterprise level, we’re gonna see, like, what people’s appetite for that is.
101 00:26:04.810 ⇒ 00:26:13.309 Uttam Kumaran: But our hourly efficiency is way higher than a traditional consultancy, given, like, our engineers use AI for a lot of stuff, our PMs use AI for a lot of stuff.
102 00:26:13.550 ⇒ 00:26:24.669 Uttam Kumaran: I would hate to bill an hour if we’re getting, like, 3 hours worth of stuff done, so trying to get things to more of that, like, outcome-based pricing is an innovation that we’re trying to… to do.
103 00:26:24.670 ⇒ 00:26:25.390 Justin Breshears: gap.
104 00:26:25.390 ⇒ 00:26:26.150 Uttam Kumaran: You know?
105 00:26:26.520 ⇒ 00:26:31.869 Justin Breshears: That’s huge, because we have that… we have two different models where we run right now, and…
106 00:26:31.870 ⇒ 00:26:47.690 Justin Breshears: one of them is TNM, and I put that in quotes because it really isn’t TNM, because most of our stuff is AWS-funded, and they’re only going to give us a finite amount, and so, like, we’re gonna hit that number, and so the T&M is, like, not real. It’s just, we’re gonna massage them.
107 00:26:47.690 ⇒ 00:26:50.490 Uttam Kumaran: You’re gonna build… yeah, that’s the floor, so you’re gonna build the floor.
108 00:26:50.550 ⇒ 00:26:53.039 Justin Breshears: So, what I’ve been trying to…
109 00:26:53.590 ⇒ 00:27:01.649 Justin Breshears: speak up the ladder and been ignored is moving to outcome-based, like, pricing models like that, where it’s like, okay, we know we have.
110 00:27:01.650 ⇒ 00:27:04.350 Uttam Kumaran: 500 grand for this initiative. Yes.
111 00:27:04.430 ⇒ 00:27:13.999 Justin Breshears: like, we’re just gonna do it for 500 grand, and yeah, however fast it takes us, like, we… that’s it. Like, that’s what I think is smarter, because you.
112 00:27:14.000 ⇒ 00:27:15.420 Uttam Kumaran: But it’s tough, it’s tough.
113 00:27:15.600 ⇒ 00:27:16.040 Justin Breshears: Nice.
114 00:27:16.040 ⇒ 00:27:19.919 Uttam Kumaran: you have to have a really… I think we’re only enabled because
115 00:27:20.100 ⇒ 00:27:29.240 Uttam Kumaran: I’m pretty technical, and Robert is, so in the sales conversations, I know… I can kind of start to scope towards outcomes, and then.
116 00:27:29.240 ⇒ 00:27:30.159 Justin Breshears: That’s the key.
117 00:27:30.160 ⇒ 00:27:44.169 Uttam Kumaran: But you also have to have a little bit of appetite for the risk, because there’s some months where we don’t… we’re not making money, because we have to scale up, but there’s other months where, like, we made 60% margin, or 70% margin, and, like, it was totally fine. …
118 00:27:45.360 ⇒ 00:27:49.060 Uttam Kumaran: You know, so I think that’s where I would like to head.
119 00:27:49.800 ⇒ 00:27:54.020 Uttam Kumaran: I don’t know, like, this is where, like, there’s… there’s things in the consulting world that I…
120 00:27:54.130 ⇒ 00:27:57.170 Uttam Kumaran: because I’ve not… don’t come from this background, I’m like.
121 00:27:57.500 ⇒ 00:28:04.089 Uttam Kumaran: why are we doing things this way? You know, and I… and I don’t know any better, so I get to question, and we get to try things.
122 00:28:04.120 ⇒ 00:28:18.450 Uttam Kumaran: there’s some clients who actually have an appetite for that, where they pay faster because it’s on a fixed monthly amount. It’s… they’re actually much more okay with it, versus every month being, like, we went over, we went under. So, there’s things like that that help us avoid.
123 00:28:18.480 ⇒ 00:28:24.959 Uttam Kumaran: It also gives me the ability to start to forecast that revenue, which is, like, super, super important for us.
124 00:28:25.050 ⇒ 00:28:36.389 Uttam Kumaran: But we’ll see. I think, like, the real art of this is gonna be if I can start to sell that when we go after a lot larger deals, and if people are gonna be open to that. But, like.
125 00:28:36.540 ⇒ 00:28:47.860 Uttam Kumaran: our company’s really, really trying to be super AI-driven, and our… our hour is going to be worth a lot more than the typical… our competitors, and I don’t want to get dinged for that, you know?
126 00:28:47.960 ⇒ 00:28:49.970 Uttam Kumaran: And so I want to find a way for it
127 00:28:50.390 ⇒ 00:28:52.189 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I mean, I don’t know, the only…
128 00:28:52.350 ⇒ 00:28:59.980 Uttam Kumaran: The only path is either we raise our rates, or we, you know, we try to charge more on, like, this sort of fixed fee basis.
129 00:29:00.600 ⇒ 00:29:01.130 Justin Breshears: Stop.
130 00:29:01.700 ⇒ 00:29:09.739 Justin Breshears: That’s your superpower right now, at your size, is your ability to get stuff done quickly, pivot based on need, and really give
131 00:29:10.140 ⇒ 00:29:12.910 Justin Breshears: give a hoot about the customer, so… Yes.
132 00:29:12.910 ⇒ 00:29:14.640 Uttam Kumaran: Yes, which is, which is good.
133 00:29:14.640 ⇒ 00:29:15.749 Justin Breshears: Huge advantage, yeah.
134 00:29:15.750 ⇒ 00:29:25.149 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, but I think at the same time, it’s like, we’re sort of playing short-term and long-term. Like, as we see more situations, we have to start building runbooks and playbooks.
135 00:29:25.290 ⇒ 00:29:25.890 Uttam Kumaran: ….
136 00:29:25.890 ⇒ 00:29:26.540 Justin Breshears: moon.
137 00:29:26.700 ⇒ 00:29:30.750 Uttam Kumaran: Because that allows us to scale the amount of conversations we’re having.
138 00:29:31.190 ⇒ 00:29:31.780 Justin Breshears: Yep.
139 00:29:31.980 ⇒ 00:29:39.829 Uttam Kumaran: But, like, again, it all starts with, like, the stuff we’re doing has been very impactful. We have some great case studies and testimonials from clients.
140 00:29:39.960 ⇒ 00:29:49.710 Uttam Kumaran: And so right now, I would say if you talk to me about the biggest blocker in our business, it is, like, getting me and Robert out of delivery.
141 00:29:49.770 ⇒ 00:30:06.789 Uttam Kumaran: Because we have seen that as we’ve allocated more of our time to sales in the last 60, 90 days, it has resulted in a very linear relationship and growth. But it was a very conscious decision where we had to take some short-term hits on clients, because we’re not involved.
142 00:30:06.870 ⇒ 00:30:14.940 Uttam Kumaran: But we knew we needed to sell to get the budget to then bring, you know, more folks on the delivery side, like you, who are actually very opinionated.
143 00:30:15.500 ⇒ 00:30:28.689 Uttam Kumaran: this is where, you know, I kind of mentioned in the call is, like, I’m not just interested in this role and bringing in someone who’s just, like, I’ll plug in as a PM and down to take tickets and do that. Like, that’s great. I think there’s a lot of folks like that out there. I think that’s fine.
144 00:30:28.690 ⇒ 00:30:44.330 Uttam Kumaran: But I need someone who’s also interested in, like, building that org while they’re sort of in there. The lovely thing is you’re… you could just be isolated to just that org, but I do think that there’s a lot of processes to build, but the prize is huge. Like, I think we’re gonna…
145 00:30:44.590 ⇒ 00:31:02.299 Uttam Kumaran: do a lot of cool things. The additional part is we’re using AI in every, like, nook and cranny in the business, whether it’s to help us scope projects from transcripts faster, she mentioned some of that. We have a very similar thing where you can ask questions over, like, all the assets related to,
146 00:31:02.600 ⇒ 00:31:07.369 Uttam Kumaran: existing client. We’re also doing… we built a very simple thing to go from a
147 00:31:07.450 ⇒ 00:31:25.969 Uttam Kumaran: a meeting with a client to tickets. We built, like, a kind of an auto groomer that goes through tickets and grades whether a ticket has all the things, that our PM team has decided needs to be in every ticket. You know, we’re working on things like an auto reminder. All of our stuff is in Slack.
148 00:31:26.000 ⇒ 00:31:32.489 Uttam Kumaran: So one day, I was like, hey, it should be pretty easy for us to see which Slack messages from a client have not been responded to.
149 00:31:32.920 ⇒ 00:31:40.199 Uttam Kumaran: can we build that, right? Because for Slacks that have a lot of communication, it can… Slack doesn’t give you any understanding of that. They should build this.
150 00:31:40.260 ⇒ 00:31:55.289 Uttam Kumaran: But I wanted… I was like, okay, can you build something that looks through the previous day’s Slack messages, sees if there’s anything that has been dropped, and flags, hey, we should probably get back to them. The next rung of that is the AI should respond, right? If we have all our Slack messages, and probably
151 00:31:55.320 ⇒ 00:32:09.799 Uttam Kumaran: a good 20-30% of those, maybe it’s like a, where is this? Or when is this happening? Or who’s… who does this? What is this? Right? Those basic questions, AI should tell our PM, hey, you could probably respond in this way, you know, and give them the ability to do that.
152 00:32:10.190 ⇒ 00:32:12.980 Justin Breshears: Do you have any way to, like, dashboard that in a report?
153 00:32:13.240 ⇒ 00:32:23.709 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, so we… so we… I can show you, I mean, we just put together this dashboard of all of our Slack messages, because I was like, I want to find out, …
154 00:32:24.130 ⇒ 00:32:41.429 Uttam Kumaran: well, I have a lot of ideas on, like, measuring our Slack, but one, I… I want to check how many times I’ve been pinged, personally, like, my escalations. And so how… how do we understand… how do we measure escalations where we should see the amount of times that I’m getting pinged go down over time?
155 00:32:41.430 ⇒ 00:32:41.930 Justin Breshears: Yeah.
156 00:32:41.930 ⇒ 00:32:55.650 Uttam Kumaran: You know, and that’s something that we’re starting to work on, and we built a dashboard just to do that, which has been really, really helpful over the past, like, two weeks to start to see, like, am I getting pinged? But there’s also ways of us looking, like, hey.
157 00:32:55.660 ⇒ 00:33:02.310 Uttam Kumaran: does communication with a client linearly relate to them being happier, a better offering? Like.
158 00:33:02.400 ⇒ 00:33:06.660 Uttam Kumaran: A lot of times, you know, it’s just, like, sending an extra message or hopping on one more meeting.
159 00:33:06.850 ⇒ 00:33:10.840 Uttam Kumaran: May be the… may be the make or break, versus just, like, getting another ticket out.
160 00:33:10.940 ⇒ 00:33:16.380 Uttam Kumaran: You know? And I want to kind of enable our PMs, … You know, in that way.
161 00:33:18.040 ⇒ 00:33:18.670 Justin Breshears: Yup.
162 00:33:18.900 ⇒ 00:33:24.370 Justin Breshears: That’s… that’s awesome, because that’s how I manage a lot of things. Right now, I have 85 projects under me. Like, I cannot…
163 00:33:24.940 ⇒ 00:33:39.730 Justin Breshears: just, like, be involved, and it’s similar to, like, what you’re talking about right now, like, you can’t be involved with your fingers in every pie, so, those, like, dashboards and those reports, like, that’s where I live. And we use it out of Salesforce. I don’t know what CRM y’all use.
164 00:33:39.730 ⇒ 00:33:40.940 Uttam Kumaran: We use HubSpot.
165 00:33:40.940 ⇒ 00:33:47.539 Justin Breshears: HubSpot, okay, I’m familiar with HubSpot. Probably similar, you know, specifics, but being able to build out, like, dashboards that, like.
166 00:33:48.020 ⇒ 00:33:49.739 Justin Breshears: Look at the metrics that you care about.
167 00:33:49.740 ⇒ 00:33:54.310 Uttam Kumaran: Well, because we’re a data company, right? So, like, if we’re not looking at data, then what are we even selling?
168 00:33:54.310 ⇒ 00:33:55.850 Justin Breshears: I should be able to.
169 00:33:56.090 ⇒ 00:34:15.259 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, but you would… but you’d also find it hard is that, like, at our size, like, at your size company, there will be a team sort of dedicated to operations and billing. At our size, like, every… like, who’s not billing a client? Like, my… our finance team is like, what are all these… what are all these hours getting billed to Brave Forge? Like, what are these people working on?
170 00:34:15.340 ⇒ 00:34:25.860 Uttam Kumaran: But that’s been also why I started the business, is, like, I started the business right when GPT 3.5 came out, and I built the whole business using AI, whether it was helping me write emails.
171 00:34:25.860 ⇒ 00:34:36.149 Uttam Kumaran: helping me create proposals, because I… I couldn’t have built this business completely bootstrapped without that. There’s no… I don’t have any… like, I had only my money, and so…
172 00:34:36.580 ⇒ 00:34:39.670 Uttam Kumaran: You’re completely bootstrapped? We’re completely bootstrapped business.
173 00:34:39.679 ⇒ 00:34:40.309 Justin Breshears: Wow.
174 00:34:40.519 ⇒ 00:34:42.889 Justin Breshears: Wow, that’s impressive. Hats off to you.
175 00:34:43.350 ⇒ 00:35:01.109 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, it’s been brutal. But I could give you kind of the background, like, I worked in VC-backed startups my whole career, like, increasingly smaller, and I… although I think we could have easily raised a bunch of money to go do this, I don’t think, …
176 00:35:01.920 ⇒ 00:35:18.479 Uttam Kumaran: that was what would have blocked us from doing this the right way, and I actually think constraints have helped us build a much more efficient and AI-driven business. Also, after working in a lot of VC-backed businesses, you’re forced to compromise
177 00:35:18.980 ⇒ 00:35:35.370 Uttam Kumaran: in some situations, you’re forced to compromise the way you act and the empathy that you can have for your clients and for your team. You’re forced to set expectations that are commonly too big, you’re forced to sell a vision that in no way can get achieved, and I have no interest in any of that.
178 00:35:35.420 ⇒ 00:35:39.869 Uttam Kumaran: You know, and so I didn’t get into this business
179 00:35:40.100 ⇒ 00:35:50.700 Uttam Kumaran: you know, to try to go to Mars, like, I wanted to build an agency where we help a lot of clients, where we do the stuff that I learned that I kept doing for so many people.
180 00:35:50.760 ⇒ 00:36:09.240 Uttam Kumaran: that we can now scale through our business and our processes, but also just to treat people, like, in a technical organization, like, a lot better. Like, I worked as an engineer, led engineers, and I just feel like a lot of times they were not treated well or not treated in a way that valued what they could do.
181 00:36:09.760 ⇒ 00:36:23.389 Uttam Kumaran: And I have no interest in that, like, I… I think this is a great team, this is a great company to be an engineer at, because I sort of defend them a lot, and I think we… we have built a great system for those folks to operate in.
182 00:36:23.480 ⇒ 00:36:36.330 Uttam Kumaran: But I’m also interested in, just like an engineer, I’m engineering the company. So we look at AI in every part of the business, whether it’s sales, finance, operations, PM, engineering, …
183 00:36:36.550 ⇒ 00:36:49.009 Uttam Kumaran: you know, we’re building… we actually are building AI systems for ourself, and that’s actually how I got into selling AI, is that I brought on an AI engineer just to help me automate the business.
184 00:36:49.010 ⇒ 00:36:57.200 Uttam Kumaran: through that process, I found that, hey, we should probably just go to market with some of these services. And this was, like, September of last year. And so we now…
185 00:36:57.210 ⇒ 00:37:08.720 Uttam Kumaran: I’ve been personally building our business with AI for about 2 years. Now we’ve been doing it sort of professionally within the company for about a year. When I go to a business, and I talk to another business owner or someone in the C-suite.
186 00:37:09.370 ⇒ 00:37:18.970 Uttam Kumaran: I’m kind of… I’m like, really, I can empathize with them on what it’s like to get adoption, what it’s like to actually find things that are worth building, the tools you should use.
187 00:37:19.130 ⇒ 00:37:35.739 Uttam Kumaran: it’s, … I’m usually asking our team to build more complicated stuff than our team… our clients are asking of us to build. You know, and that’s what is really, really special to me, and why I feel confident in what we’re delivering. AI has pulled a lot of our business forward.
188 00:37:35.800 ⇒ 00:37:54.150 Uttam Kumaran: But I still want to make sure that we’re not building, like, crappy proof of concepts that, like, never gonna see the light of day, like, chatbot over a document. Stuff like that is cute, but I want to build things that really get people to the dream of, like, what AI is doing, and what we’re seeing in our business, the impact is.
189 00:37:55.700 ⇒ 00:38:14.059 Uttam Kumaran: But that also, that takes us to kind of temper down our expectations with clients. Like, I don’t come in there and say, we’re gonna automate your whole business, or you’re gonna be able to fire everybody. I say, like, you’re probably sitting on, like, 20-40% efficiency, and I think we can find that for you. And I think AI is the new technology that unlocks that.
190 00:38:14.310 ⇒ 00:38:18.819 Uttam Kumaran: I also think a lot of our clients, there’s no other way for them to find that, like.
191 00:38:18.900 ⇒ 00:38:30.530 Uttam Kumaran: growing your business at that rate, or cutting costs at that rate, is really difficult. And so a lot of people in the economy need… they’re looking for AI as that solution, and I do think that
192 00:38:30.530 ⇒ 00:38:42.899 Uttam Kumaran: 20 to 40% is probably more of the accurate expectation. And so that’s what we come into companies offering, and then we build agents, we build integrations, agentic workflows, sort of all of the…
193 00:38:43.670 ⇒ 00:39:00.530 Uttam Kumaran: all of the sort of cutting-edge stuff, except for fine-tuning and training, we basically are doing. So it’s a lot of, like, forward-facing application integration work. But a lot of that also rhymes with data engineering, so most of that work is moving data into an LLM and then moving it out somewhere.
194 00:39:00.680 ⇒ 00:39:03.340 Uttam Kumaran: Not very much different than the work that we usually.
195 00:39:03.340 ⇒ 00:39:04.740 Justin Breshears: Very related, yeah.
196 00:39:04.740 ⇒ 00:39:08.319 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, so that’s kind of, like, how we got into the AI stuff.
197 00:39:08.980 ⇒ 00:39:14.070 Justin Breshears: That’s cool. Appreciate you sharing all that. Appreciate you being open about it, too.
198 00:39:15.260 ⇒ 00:39:17.449 Justin Breshears: me, you know? It’s funny here.
199 00:39:18.660 ⇒ 00:39:27.370 Justin Breshears: what are, like, the growth goals that you have, then? You know, I’m assuming you had some for this year, but, you know, looking like a year out.
200 00:39:27.540 ⇒ 00:39:28.150 Justin Breshears: You know, you’re.
201 00:39:28.150 ⇒ 00:39:28.880 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, so….
202 00:39:28.880 ⇒ 00:39:32.930 Justin Breshears: 15, now we’re looking 15 to 30? I mean, what’s the goals like?
203 00:39:33.170 ⇒ 00:39:39.400 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, so… I would say I’m a lot less interested in, like, headcount goals, like.
204 00:39:39.580 ⇒ 00:39:47.460 Uttam Kumaran: for me, I come from a more software product background, where in software, look, those are, like, 90%, 80% margin products.
205 00:39:47.600 ⇒ 00:39:52.169 Uttam Kumaran: not a headcount scaling type of organization, right? Typically. Right. …
206 00:39:52.710 ⇒ 00:40:02.780 Uttam Kumaran: In consulting, it’s very, very painful, especially bootstrap consulting, to hire, because typically, your revenue scales directly with your costs, and it’s… you…
207 00:40:02.950 ⇒ 00:40:10.410 Uttam Kumaran: in my business, 40% is, like, a great margin to hit, gross margin, right? Most companies are somewhere…
208 00:40:10.820 ⇒ 00:40:16.660 Uttam Kumaran: like, 20 to 30, maybe? But certainly, that’s at maturity, like, not when you’re starting the company.
209 00:40:16.730 ⇒ 00:40:22.290 Uttam Kumaran: So for us, like, again, I challenge all of that. I’m like, what… what is stopping us from running? Like, what are the…
210 00:40:22.330 ⇒ 00:40:38.740 Uttam Kumaran: what are the costs that are impacting our ability to not achieve 40% and beyond margin? I’m not saying we need to have software margins, but I want us to be top of class when it comes to those types of KPIs. So when I think about the business KPIs, I think about top-line revenue.
211 00:40:38.740 ⇒ 00:40:50.769 Uttam Kumaran: I think about our gross margin, I then also think about revenue per employee, right? I think if you consider those, you have both sides of the equation. You have sort of, like, okay, let’s get big, but also
212 00:40:50.840 ⇒ 00:41:04.959 Uttam Kumaran: can we start to grow our headcount slower than we grow, the revenue? And so, for us, right now, I would say revenue is number one. These are new client acquisitions, new logo acquisitions, and expansion.
213 00:41:05.640 ⇒ 00:41:23.649 Uttam Kumaran: So, right now, we’re running at about, like, a 1 to 1.5 a year, in annual revenue. Our goal is to try to end the quarter with around, like, 120K in MRR. So that’s, like, that would be our ideal spot.
214 00:41:23.770 ⇒ 00:41:24.970 Uttam Kumaran: we are…
215 00:41:25.330 ⇒ 00:41:33.529 Uttam Kumaran: the way that, sort of, we have to ramp to that is it starts at all top of funnel, so we’re doing a ton of stuff on LinkedIn, events.
216 00:41:33.760 ⇒ 00:41:47.969 Uttam Kumaran: like, we… a lot of our business was built on word of mouth, but we’re now building these pretty automated outbound channels that we’re growing at. So, we’re now hitting the meeting numbers in us to sort of ladder to that figure.
217 00:41:48.040 ⇒ 00:42:02.009 Uttam Kumaran: So if I was to talk about, like, what our goals are for the next two quarters, it’s just growing the revenue amount. That allows us to be able to afford amazing talent, that allows us to, you know, continue to invest in some of our internal processes, like
218 00:42:02.260 ⇒ 00:42:16.809 Uttam Kumaran: the AI cost of implementing AI is all sort of, like, costs we have to eat, but of course, we hope that we see the ROI on the delivery margin side. But that is all stuff that I want to continue to invest in, build a great, what I would call, like, a brain-forged platform.
219 00:42:17.040 ⇒ 00:42:28.570 Uttam Kumaran: But I also think a lot of people think of a platform like we’re building some type of product. I think the platform is the process, it’s expectations, it is these, like, nice tools here and there, but it’s sort of, like.
220 00:42:28.650 ⇒ 00:42:34.100 Uttam Kumaran: why I can take anybody from any company, bring them into Brainforge, and how can I make them
221 00:42:34.160 ⇒ 00:42:43.850 Uttam Kumaran: 30% more efficient, and 30% more happy, and 30% more impactful to our client, right? And that’s, like, the… what is the Brainforge platform that enables that?
222 00:42:43.850 ⇒ 00:42:55.539 Uttam Kumaran: So that’s what I think about a lot. And so, for us, it’s growing revenue. Like, I would like us to see us double and triple revenue. We are hitting that, like, 30-40% margin on average.
223 00:42:55.540 ⇒ 00:43:04.920 Uttam Kumaran: Which is great. I think we are, like, slightly cheating in certain ways. Like, I’m still working on some clients. I think some people are stretching probably too much. Like, there is some of that, but…
224 00:43:05.040 ⇒ 00:43:07.489 Uttam Kumaran: It can be done. …
225 00:43:08.090 ⇒ 00:43:22.030 Uttam Kumaran: And then, for us, it’s going after bigger logos. Like, I think even for our size company, we’ve worked with some really, really prominent brands in B2B SaaS, in e-commerce, in health. I think we’ve punched way above our weight on some of those.
226 00:43:22.030 ⇒ 00:43:31.590 Uttam Kumaran: meaning, like, acquiring those from being, like, absolutely nobodies. But it just shows that I think we… it shows that we know what we’re doing, and that we can secure those deals.
227 00:43:31.620 ⇒ 00:43:46.219 Uttam Kumaran: And so, every time we secure a big one of those, the bar now rose, okay, like, what else can we go compete for? But as you know, like, the sales cycles on those deals that are a quarter million, half a million, million dollars can be really, really long.
228 00:43:46.340 ⇒ 00:43:53.199 Uttam Kumaran: It takes a lot of relationship building, it takes a lot of schmoozing, takes a lot of really core account-based selling methods.
229 00:43:53.400 ⇒ 00:43:55.749 Uttam Kumaran: That’s the next thing for us, but, like.
230 00:43:56.160 ⇒ 00:44:14.830 Uttam Kumaran: again, we’ve only been in business 2 years, so some of these sales cycles are now typically 2 to 3 months, but as we go for bigger things, they will tend to be 4 or 5 months, where from when we isolated somebody, we start to build a… sort of our positioning around them and secure a deal. So that’s what we need to graduate to.
231 00:44:14.960 ⇒ 00:44:15.730 Uttam Kumaran: ….
232 00:44:15.730 ⇒ 00:44:16.180 Justin Breshears: Yup.
233 00:44:16.180 ⇒ 00:44:20.340 Uttam Kumaran: And that’s what I think, you know, we’ve done well, is we’re… we are big on relationships.
234 00:44:20.560 ⇒ 00:44:34.400 Uttam Kumaran: our first business… the business we got in our company were all just, like, people I met through my career, where either they’re working at a company, or they knew someone that needed data help, and they brought us in. And so we still do a lot of that, but we also now have some more repeatable
235 00:44:34.620 ⇒ 00:44:39.520 Uttam Kumaran: Sales cycles, but as you can tell, my mind is really focused on just, like, growing
236 00:44:39.820 ⇒ 00:44:44.649 Uttam Kumaran: Our, our funnel, and continue to maintain great delivery.
237 00:44:45.060 ⇒ 00:44:48.480 Justin Breshears: Yeah. But you need somebody to take that part out.
238 00:44:48.480 ⇒ 00:44:51.930 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, it’s so hard, it’s so difficult.
239 00:44:52.230 ⇒ 00:44:54.980 Uttam Kumaran: And I’m also not someone, like, I’m not a, …
240 00:44:55.220 ⇒ 00:45:00.679 Uttam Kumaran: I’m not a, a company leader that is a micromanager. In fact, like.
241 00:45:00.800 ⇒ 00:45:06.719 Uttam Kumaran: I care so little about micromanaging. I actually want to give people so much agency,
242 00:45:06.770 ⇒ 00:45:20.099 Uttam Kumaran: you know, we try to do a lot of, like, brawl, walk, run, like, coaching people, like, sit beside me, watch how I do a process, then you do it, and then by that time, you would have gone. So, I’m… I’m actually so open to handing things off, because
243 00:45:20.140 ⇒ 00:45:31.340 Uttam Kumaran: I’m not gonna go sit on a beach, you need me to go sell that million dollar deal. Like, that’s what the company needs me as an employee to go do. And so, you’re totally right in that we’re trying to get
244 00:45:31.500 ⇒ 00:45:37.370 Uttam Kumaran: the day-to-day sort of perils of delivery off our hands. …
245 00:45:38.040 ⇒ 00:45:50.169 Uttam Kumaran: just so we can go, you know, continue to expand. Whether that’s bringing on more advisors, bringing on better people, bringing on bigger deals. That’s, like, where my time, you know, needs to go strategically right now.
246 00:45:50.740 ⇒ 00:45:52.120 Justin Breshears: Yeah, makes sense.
247 00:45:52.500 ⇒ 00:45:57.209 Justin Breshears: It’s exactly how, at Builders Update, we went from 1 million a year to 10.
248 00:45:57.210 ⇒ 00:45:57.570 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
249 00:45:57.570 ⇒ 00:46:17.159 Justin Breshears: Because I enabled the CEO to go sell. He was literally on the road, flying every day, you know, somewhere new, flying all his… it was… it was a, like, an MLS for new homes. Okay. So not, like, existing homes, but, like, new homes, and it partnered… it integrated with, like, existing MLSs, so it would provide all that new construction data in there.
250 00:46:17.190 ⇒ 00:46:30.349 Justin Breshears: And so he was on the road just, like, talking to the MLS over in this state, talking, to these builders, you know, over here, or whatever. And so, yeah, it was the same kind of deal, where it was like, I took care of the organizational stuff.
251 00:46:30.590 ⇒ 00:46:34.350 Justin Breshears: Well, he was able to free up and go do that, so I totally understand that.
252 00:46:34.350 ⇒ 00:46:41.580 Uttam Kumaran: I found it interesting that, you know, like, you’re interested in actually getting more technical. Like, I feel like you’re, you know, I was talking to Alex after, I was like.
253 00:46:41.870 ⇒ 00:46:46.819 Uttam Kumaran: Some people say that, some project managers say that. They’re like, oh, I’m taking a course.
254 00:46:46.900 ⇒ 00:46:52.920 Uttam Kumaran: But you’re probably the first person I’ve met that is… was actually very genuinely interested in, and even when
255 00:46:52.980 ⇒ 00:47:10.409 Uttam Kumaran: ask a follow-up, you were like, no, I actually think there’s a path to, like, start to do some of this work myself. I think it’s very rare to see that, but what do you think that is? And, like, how do you think that impacts? Because, as you know, and I’m sort of this way, I’m sort of a what’s-the-third-option type of person. Like, when I was an engineer.
256 00:47:10.460 ⇒ 00:47:16.219 Uttam Kumaran: I got promoted, and they asked, like, do you want to continue staying at IC, or do you want to become an engineering manager?
257 00:47:16.290 ⇒ 00:47:27.319 Uttam Kumaran: I was like, kind of neither of those seems that interesting, like, hey, there… you guys, we don’t have a customer-facing analytics product, can I go lead that product? And they were like, sure. So then I became a product manager.
258 00:47:27.590 ⇒ 00:47:34.059 Uttam Kumaran: the benefit is I knew all the engineers in the company, everyone immediately wanted to work on that team, and I ran a full-stack
259 00:47:34.330 ⇒ 00:47:43.079 Uttam Kumaran: product team with no formal product experience, but I was also very opinionated about data products, because I was using them all day. But, like.
260 00:47:43.240 ⇒ 00:47:54.650 Uttam Kumaran: that is sort of what I’m kind of hearing, is like, okay, what is this other option? But I’m sort of curious, because I can tell that you’ve done a lot of thinking and arrived at that, like, what was the… what was the sort of math, or, like, what was the sort of thinking there?
261 00:47:54.930 ⇒ 00:47:58.799 Justin Breshears: it’s probably similar to what you just described, where it’s like, I don’t…
262 00:47:59.330 ⇒ 00:48:05.719 Justin Breshears: I don’t really want to just run projects as a regular PM my whole life, like, that’s cool and all, but, like.
263 00:48:06.020 ⇒ 00:48:11.999 Justin Breshears: there’s a limit to that. I mean, it’s very much, like, repetitive and kind of the same stuff over and over again.
264 00:48:12.370 ⇒ 00:48:20.840 Justin Breshears: And I enjoy, like, leading teams and building organizations, but I don’t enjoy doing so from ignorance.
265 00:48:20.840 ⇒ 00:48:22.770 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, what do you mean by that?
266 00:48:23.660 ⇒ 00:48:29.359 Justin Breshears: So right now, I lead a lot of initiatives and things that I just don’t understand.
267 00:48:29.560 ⇒ 00:48:39.130 Justin Breshears: like, I can’t set up a control tower in AWS. I can’t, do a, you know, architect a migration strategy and, like, all this stuff. So, like.
268 00:48:39.520 ⇒ 00:48:46.840 Justin Breshears: I don’t have those skills, right? The more I learn, the more… the better I am able to lead those teams, right?
269 00:48:46.840 ⇒ 00:48:47.430 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
270 00:48:47.430 ⇒ 00:49:01.500 Justin Breshears: And so… and I just… there’s too much to learn, like, all at once, right? So you gotta… you gotta zero in. What I found most interesting, most fascinating, was data. So I was like, I’m gonna zero in on that, and then I asked AI, I’m like.
271 00:49:01.870 ⇒ 00:49:04.449 Justin Breshears: What’s the best pathway to, like.
272 00:49:04.860 ⇒ 00:49:10.229 Justin Breshears: becoming a data engineer, basically. Yeah. And they’re like, Python, SQL,
273 00:49:10.350 ⇒ 00:49:12.999 Justin Breshears: Power BI, Tableau, all this stuff.
274 00:49:13.230 ⇒ 00:49:17.990 Justin Breshears: And I’m like, okay, like, that’s… that’s my pathway, right? And the goal was always…
275 00:49:18.680 ⇒ 00:49:24.580 Justin Breshears: in the, like I said earlier, in the near term, to just get better at leading teams, and know more.
276 00:49:24.730 ⇒ 00:49:26.620 Justin Breshears: But in the long term, like.
277 00:49:26.850 ⇒ 00:49:33.699 Justin Breshears: You’re in a position that you’re in right now, able to have the margins that you have because you came from a technical background.
278 00:49:33.700 ⇒ 00:49:34.120 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
279 00:49:34.120 ⇒ 00:49:35.910 Justin Breshears: You can unblock things, you can put.
280 00:49:35.910 ⇒ 00:49:39.490 Uttam Kumaran: We move very fast, because I’m like, oh, just do it that way, like.
281 00:49:39.490 ⇒ 00:49:50.130 Justin Breshears: Next. There you go. That’s the end goal. You came from the technical side over to the business side. I’m coming from the business side over the technical side. I think the end goal is similar, like….
282 00:49:50.130 ⇒ 00:49:50.760 Uttam Kumaran: Sure.
283 00:49:50.950 ⇒ 00:49:59.429 Justin Breshears: I would want to be in a similar boat where, like, hey, if the business has a fire, I can put that out, but if the tech side of the house has a fire as well, I can also.
284 00:49:59.430 ⇒ 00:49:59.790 Uttam Kumaran: Yes.
285 00:49:59.790 ⇒ 00:50:06.889 Justin Breshears: into that. I don’t like feeling helpless in the sense that, like, I need to rely on the smarter people to tell me.
286 00:50:06.890 ⇒ 00:50:10.200 Uttam Kumaran: Are you, are you, like, kind of a control freak in your personal life, do you think?
287 00:50:11.780 ⇒ 00:50:16.289 Uttam Kumaran: I wouldn’t describe myself either, but I’m more of, like, I was… I was saying that I just…
288 00:50:16.510 ⇒ 00:50:19.900 Uttam Kumaran: I kind of need to know how things work. Like, if I see something and I’m like.
289 00:50:19.900 ⇒ 00:50:20.850 Justin Breshears: Yeah.
290 00:50:20.850 ⇒ 00:50:25.699 Uttam Kumaran: I wonder how this table was built. I’m like, well, I’m just gonna… let me, like… I kinda need to know.
291 00:50:26.050 ⇒ 00:50:31.620 Justin Breshears: Okay, when you put it like that, then yes, I am absolutely that way, because, like, my wife and I will be talking
292 00:50:31.760 ⇒ 00:50:41.409 Justin Breshears: And I’ll be like, yeah, I wonder how that, like, works, or like, what’s the story behind that? And she’ll go, hmm, I wonder. And then, like, just leave it at that, you know? And then I….
293 00:50:41.410 ⇒ 00:50:42.439 Uttam Kumaran: example, like, the….
294 00:50:42.440 ⇒ 00:50:42.960 Justin Breshears: Googling it.
295 00:50:42.960 ⇒ 00:50:46.859 Uttam Kumaran: The washer fluid alert on my girlfriend’s car is on.
296 00:50:47.150 ⇒ 00:50:55.819 Uttam Kumaran: And I’m like, how long has this been on? She’s like, I don’t know, for a while. I’m like, I wonder what it is. He was like, oh, I went to Jiffy Lube, and they said I should take it to service. I’m like.
297 00:50:56.170 ⇒ 00:51:03.380 Uttam Kumaran: probably, like, a sensor thing, and I’m like… she’s like, yeah, I’m like, can we just fix it right now? She’s like, no, like, let’s do it later.
298 00:51:03.560 ⇒ 00:51:04.390 Uttam Kumaran: I’m like.
299 00:51:04.670 ⇒ 00:51:14.369 Uttam Kumaran: we should probably just fix it, like, right now. It would be great. It’s probably a sensor, I can take it out and check it, but I’m sort of that type of person. Yeah.
300 00:51:14.370 ⇒ 00:51:18.210 Justin Breshears: I can’t have notification icons on my phone or anything.
301 00:51:18.210 ⇒ 00:51:18.999 Uttam Kumaran: No, I’m not a team.
302 00:51:19.000 ⇒ 00:51:19.970 Justin Breshears: care of them, you know?
303 00:51:19.970 ⇒ 00:51:21.219 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I agree.
304 00:51:21.390 ⇒ 00:51:28.459 Justin Breshears: I can’t leave things, like, on red and all that, like, I just… yeah. So, very similar in that way, and I think that…
305 00:51:28.870 ⇒ 00:51:42.220 Justin Breshears: I have a thirst for learning and knowledge and growing, and so why would I not tackle something that would also help me in what I do for the majority of my day, every day, you know?
306 00:51:42.220 ⇒ 00:51:49.630 Justin Breshears: So there’s a… there’s a lot of reasons to it, I think. One is just fascinating. I want to learn it, just because it’s… it’s fascinating.
307 00:51:49.630 ⇒ 00:51:55.999 Uttam Kumaran: I agree, I mean, that’s… still, for me, the data, that’s, like, my… that’s what I love to do. The business side, I’ve learned.
308 00:51:56.440 ⇒ 00:51:57.470 Uttam Kumaran: …
309 00:51:57.950 ⇒ 00:52:15.320 Uttam Kumaran: it is, like, it’s just harder for all the wrong reasons. Like, I would love to sit and just do data work all day, like, that’s what… that’s what I’m good at. I’m really good at that, and that’s why I still tend to be pretty fast, and… but, like, the business side is what the company needs me to do.
310 00:52:15.620 ⇒ 00:52:29.680 Uttam Kumaran: But I then… I look at the business side as an engineering problem. Like, I look at systems, we have input resources, I think, like, I don’t de… it’s not dehumanizing. I look at people as just… we have to deal with all these unknowns, and… but…
311 00:52:29.880 ⇒ 00:52:46.439 Uttam Kumaran: I also think that there is a… I’ve read every book on building a consultancy. Some of these books are, like, from the 70s and 80s. These are the… it’s the same type of business. No, it’s not changed. The same way you… it’s an optimization problem for rates, and for cogs, and for sales, like, it’s a data problem.
312 00:52:46.510 ⇒ 00:52:53.030 Uttam Kumaran: And so that gives me a little bit of, like, happiness, that it’s, like, a well-defined… I’m not, like, inventing physics or, like, inventing a new thing.
313 00:52:53.160 ⇒ 00:53:10.059 Uttam Kumaran: But it’s hard for, like, all the people reasons, emotional reasons, and, like, we’re all human beings. Like, I still have to go… I have a life and do things. Like, it’s challenging for all of those reasons. You have to change, right? Like, when I was just alone versus when it was two of us versus when it was 15,
314 00:53:10.590 ⇒ 00:53:15.280 Uttam Kumaran: I have to become a much different person, so that’s where the challenge in this business, you know, really comes from.
315 00:53:16.200 ⇒ 00:53:17.590 Justin Breshears: Yeah, for sure.
316 00:53:17.900 ⇒ 00:53:21.319 Justin Breshears: Yeah, I couldn’t agree more. So, I think…
317 00:53:21.620 ⇒ 00:53:24.289 Justin Breshears: I’m kind of trying to arrive at the same…
318 00:53:24.640 ⇒ 00:53:30.759 Justin Breshears: Yeah. And that you are just coming from the… from the different area, and I don’t know which one’s easier, which one’s harder. I think they’re both.
319 00:53:30.760 ⇒ 00:53:32.260 Uttam Kumaran: I don’t know either.
320 00:53:32.260 ⇒ 00:53:36.449 Justin Breshears: But I think I have, like, the people side of it and the business side of it, like.
321 00:53:36.740 ⇒ 00:53:40.780 Justin Breshears: I mean, I’m always gonna improve, I’m not perfect by any means, but I’m saying, like.
322 00:53:40.910 ⇒ 00:53:47.699 Justin Breshears: better at that, trying to flex this other muscle that I’m not good at yet, and I don’t know just the technical side, so…
323 00:53:47.890 ⇒ 00:53:48.389 Justin Breshears: Just trying to.
324 00:53:48.390 ⇒ 00:53:49.000 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
325 00:53:49.000 ⇒ 00:53:49.590 Justin Breshears: I mean, that’s fine.
326 00:53:49.590 ⇒ 00:54:05.649 Uttam Kumaran: I think this is a good spot to do that, too. Like, you know, we have other folks that are like, hey, eventually, like, I want to go run an agency, and I don’t know, maybe a typical person like me should be like, oh, that’s a red flag, but I’m like, this is a great place to go learn how to do that, because everything’s wide in the open.
327 00:54:06.220 ⇒ 00:54:18.529 Uttam Kumaran: I’m taking on all the risk, so you could kind of see everything firsthand, and we’re not, like, big enough to where everything’s figured out, but we are opinionated, but we’re not, like, we’re not, like, hard-headed.
328 00:54:18.560 ⇒ 00:54:33.110 Uttam Kumaran: You know, like, I have… if you ask me ways something should work, like, I can get us to a decision, but we could change our mind really fast. And so I think this is a great place to learn. Second, I think if you’re looking for a place to do AI work that’s, like, actually meaningful and working for clients.
329 00:54:33.500 ⇒ 00:54:44.859 Uttam Kumaran: you know, I think we’ve stumbled upon that, and it’s really, really been a lot of fun. I’ve never been kind of on a wave like this in a certain technology that’s come up, but…
330 00:54:45.220 ⇒ 00:54:56.210 Uttam Kumaran: I don’t know, this… I feel very lucky to be running a company like ours during AI, because… and to… to have been personally using it in my business for 2 years gave us such a leg up.
331 00:54:56.400 ⇒ 00:55:12.309 Uttam Kumaran: You know, for clients. So, I think… I think in that way, it’s great. And then, even on the engineering side, we have a lot of backlog engineering work for ourselves to do, whether it’s building data pipelines. For example, I wanted to build a pipeline to get our calendar data.
332 00:55:12.450 ⇒ 00:55:17.350 Uttam Kumaran: measured, because I want to see how many meetings everybody’s in, and just see if that’s, like, changing.
333 00:55:17.520 ⇒ 00:55:20.280 Uttam Kumaran: Or if that’s bright, or wrong, or whatever.
334 00:55:20.310 ⇒ 00:55:39.129 Uttam Kumaran: okay, someone has to go build that pipeline, so if you could come do that, that’s… that’s such an easy… that’s, like, such a low-hanging fruit, easy thing where anybody in the company, if they wanted to tackle that, they can do. Like, we have some AI engineers that are learning data because they took on some of that data pipeline work. Similarly, we have some data folks that are learning AI because
335 00:55:39.170 ⇒ 00:55:44.079 Uttam Kumaran: I was like, hey, we have this small feature here if you want to go try build it, or take on some of our internal work.
336 00:55:44.260 ⇒ 00:55:47.430 Uttam Kumaran: So I also think, like, in the stage we’re at at our company.
337 00:55:47.450 ⇒ 00:56:04.140 Uttam Kumaran: it’s very flexible, but it’s not in, like, a, you’re now tasked to go do this, and now you have four jobs kind of way. Like, that I’m very uninterested in, because I used to… I did that, I’m sure you’re used to that as well, which is like, did I just sign up for something I shouldn’t have signed up for? I don’t… I hate that feeling.
338 00:56:04.140 ⇒ 00:56:14.360 Uttam Kumaran: it’s more of, like, it’s open, but we will have… our goal is to staff everything appropriately and … and grow. So I think over time, this business will get more rigid.
339 00:56:14.440 ⇒ 00:56:18.630 Uttam Kumaran: Where we’re at now, it’s pretty open to come in and, like, stake a claim and actually
340 00:56:18.720 ⇒ 00:56:22.770 Uttam Kumaran: Build systems where there’s… there’s people and real clients involved, you know?
341 00:56:23.600 ⇒ 00:56:41.580 Justin Breshears: I love that. I think that’s the reason I gravitate towards smaller companies, because by the time they get even to the size that my company’s at now, things are so much slower, and I get frustrated, because then I say something that I think should happen, and then nobody listens. And I’m like, I’m not always right, but sometimes I am, because I’m on.
342 00:56:41.580 ⇒ 00:56:46.609 Uttam Kumaran: I wish more people at Braveforged had opinions, because I’m the one talking in a lot of these, and I’m like.
343 00:56:46.870 ⇒ 00:56:56.389 Uttam Kumaran: they’re like, how do you know all this? I’m like, I don’t know, like, I… I… just how I feel, it feels right, but, like, someone should push back, or someone else should go think about this, you know?
344 00:56:56.390 ⇒ 00:57:16.500 Justin Breshears: like I get in trouble a lot of times, because I… my policy is, I will always tell you what I think, boss, or any leadership, like, I will always tell you what I think, because I’m the one on the front lines. Like, I’m seeing what the customers are saying, I’m talking with them, and so I’m going to report up to you, because if I were in your position, I would want me to do that. Yeah. And so I’m like.
345 00:57:16.500 ⇒ 00:57:17.900 Justin Breshears: That’s how I’m gonna be.
346 00:57:17.900 ⇒ 00:57:37.819 Justin Breshears: If you don’t like it, great, like, if you’re the boss, like, if you say, like, nope, we’re not gonna do it that way, or that’s a dumb idea, like, cool, it’s not gonna hurt my feelings, but I’m gonna tell you what I think, you know, because this is just what I’m seeing, you know? Yeah. Sometimes I think I get in trouble that way, but I’m just like, I… that’s the only way I know how to just be open, honest, transparent.
347 00:57:37.820 ⇒ 00:57:40.980 Justin Breshears: About everything, and, you know, see where it falls.
348 00:57:42.030 ⇒ 00:57:42.910 Uttam Kumaran: Nice.
349 00:57:43.080 ⇒ 00:57:44.810 Justin Breshears: Well, tell me what else I….
350 00:57:44.810 ⇒ 00:57:57.850 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, well, tell me what… tell me what else I can answer, or anything. I mean, I also… I mean, I don’t know what your schedule… I’m happy to even come say hi, and I don’t know how far you are in Richmond, but if you’re interested in grabbing a coffee or something, or meeting halfway, I’m happy to.
351 00:57:57.850 ⇒ 00:57:58.460 Justin Breshears: Yeah, it’s already….
352 00:57:58.460 ⇒ 00:58:03.979 Uttam Kumaran: It’s rare that I get to interview people Nearby, because we’re completely remote.
353 00:58:03.980 ⇒ 00:58:26.650 Justin Breshears: I would love that, but I would love to come to you, because there’s a lot better places to do that in Austin than there is in Richmond. Richmond is very, very, very tiny, and outside of Houston, and between you, me, and everybody else that I talk to, I don’t like Houston at all, so we moved here to be closer to my wife’s family, and that’s great. I love that. But, I do miss Austin, very much so.
354 00:58:26.920 ⇒ 00:58:28.250 Uttam Kumaran: I mean, I’m happy to, you know….
355 00:58:28.250 ⇒ 00:58:28.680 Justin Breshears: down.
356 00:58:28.680 ⇒ 00:58:43.629 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I think it’s rare. I don’t know, I… if I was close, I… for a lot of our clients… for a lot of our team, I just try to find a way to… to make a human impression and… and sort of get you to also see me and, like, grill me on whatever, and so I’m happy to do that.
357 00:58:43.630 ⇒ 00:58:48.439 Justin Breshears: That would be… yeah, I would be happy to drive down and spend some time with you.
358 00:58:48.780 ⇒ 00:58:57.759 Justin Breshears: I mean, it was just great to hear a little bit more about the company and what y’all are doing. Everything sounds amazing. It sounds like something that
359 00:58:57.990 ⇒ 00:59:05.040 Justin Breshears: It’s right up my alley to be a part of, but also at the same time, I think I could help. I legitimately think I could…
360 00:59:05.040 ⇒ 00:59:20.609 Justin Breshears: help you with that stuff that you want off your plate. Like, that’s… that’s my specialty. So, would love to continue exploring it. I don’t… I don’t have any other, like, burning questions for today, but yeah, if we want to set up something where, you know, we meet in person, that’d be awesome.
361 00:59:20.760 ⇒ 00:59:28.969 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, tell me, I guess, up to you, like, if I’m not going far, it’s totally up to you. I mean, I’m sort of free. I can…
362 00:59:29.090 ⇒ 00:59:33.859 Uttam Kumaran: Find time, so you let me know, like, kind of what your schedule is, either this week or next week.
363 00:59:33.990 ⇒ 00:59:36.039 Uttam Kumaran: For this weekend, I’m in town, so….
364 00:59:36.040 ⇒ 00:59:37.310 Justin Breshears: Two, two little ones.
365 00:59:37.310 ⇒ 00:59:45.229 Uttam Kumaran: Yes, yes, no, you… but that’s also why I’m happy to come, so if it’s not gonna… if it’s not gonna work out, I’m happy to meet you nearby, like, please no stress.
366 00:59:45.230 ⇒ 00:59:55.269 Justin Breshears: Yeah, I appreciate that. Well, I’ll let you know. I’ll talk to her, and we can go from there, for sure. But it would be awesome. In a world of Zoom meetings, it is,
367 00:59:55.270 ⇒ 00:59:55.909 Uttam Kumaran: I know, man.
368 00:59:55.910 ⇒ 00:59:56.310 Justin Breshears: sometimes.
369 00:59:56.310 ⇒ 00:59:57.000 Uttam Kumaran: I, ….
370 00:59:57.000 ⇒ 00:59:57.910 Justin Breshears: one person.
371 00:59:58.100 ⇒ 01:00:07.300 Uttam Kumaran: I agree, like, it’s… I spend so much time on Zoom these days, and it’s hard to build a relationship, because every meeting has an agenda and a purpose.
372 01:00:07.500 ⇒ 01:00:08.580 Uttam Kumaran: Yum.
373 01:00:08.970 ⇒ 01:00:10.300 Uttam Kumaran: So, happy….
374 01:00:10.300 ⇒ 01:00:14.899 Justin Breshears: I play the game of, how tall is this person? Are they taller than… or shorter than I….
375 01:00:14.900 ⇒ 01:00:15.630 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, yeah.
376 01:00:15.630 ⇒ 01:00:16.359 Justin Breshears: I did.
377 01:00:16.360 ⇒ 01:00:23.659 Uttam Kumaran: See, my torso… my torso is not that big, but I’m, like, 6’2”, so my legs are really long.
378 01:00:23.660 ⇒ 01:00:24.080 Justin Breshears: That’s funny.
379 01:00:24.490 ⇒ 01:00:30.809 Uttam Kumaran: I also meet some people where I’m like, you give tall energy, but then you meet them and they’re not tall at all, and so I don’t know.
380 01:00:30.810 ⇒ 01:00:40.870 Justin Breshears: That’s the thing, it’s always fun to see, because every now and then I get to travel around and meet some folks that I work with and stuff, and I’m always surprised. There’s always something about them that I’m like, you don’t look like that on Zoom.
381 01:00:40.870 ⇒ 01:00:47.269 Uttam Kumaran: you know, you meet, you go to someone’s house, and you’re like, oh, this is, like, the background, like, I didn’t… I didn’t get the framing of what this is.
382 01:00:47.270 ⇒ 01:00:55.779 Justin Breshears: Yeah, I know, I need to do something with my background here. I call it the cave, it’s my upstairs bedroom. It’s like a guest bedroom that we have, so I….
383 01:00:55.780 ⇒ 01:00:56.330 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
384 01:00:56.480 ⇒ 01:01:02.909 Justin Breshears: That view back there is nothing pretty, so I usually, like, blur it or whatever, but I would love to do something better with my background here.
385 01:01:02.910 ⇒ 01:01:06.349 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, this guy… this guy is all… this isn’t a coworker, so he….
386 01:01:06.350 ⇒ 01:01:10.320 Justin Breshears: Yeah, you have a great background there, he just, like, made himself comfortable.
387 01:01:10.450 ⇒ 01:01:15.960 Uttam Kumaran: But he’s like, get back to work. He’s like, what do you… he’s like, turn around, get back to typing.
388 01:01:16.130 ⇒ 01:01:27.779 Justin Breshears: It’s awesome. Yeah, I laughed when he walked in. I’ve got a Golden that will… he’ll come up here every now and then, but he doesn’t like it up here because it’s hot upstairs compared to downstairs, so… and hang out up here.
389 01:01:27.780 ⇒ 01:01:38.540 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I don’t know, something… something about my boring, you know, speeches are soothing for him, and he just immediately sleeps. When he hears consulting jargon, he just falls asleep, so….
390 01:01:38.540 ⇒ 01:01:39.410 Justin Breshears: That’s awesome.
391 01:01:39.410 ⇒ 01:01:40.160 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
392 01:01:40.480 ⇒ 01:01:49.900 Justin Breshears: Well, I’ll let you go. It was great talking with you, thanks for jumping back on, and yeah, I’ll, I’ll let you know when, we get away for a few hours.
393 01:01:50.070 ⇒ 01:01:52.109 Uttam Kumaran: Okay, perfect. Alright. Thanks, Justin.
394 01:01:52.110 ⇒ 01:01:53.000 Justin Breshears: Alright, bye.
395 01:01:53.000 ⇒ 01:01:53.630 Uttam Kumaran: Okay, bye.