Meeting Title: BrainForge x Remo Proposal Planning Date: 2025-08-25 Meeting participants: Awaish Kumar, Surfield Thomas, Jr., Uttam Kumaran
WEBVTT
1 00:01:36.970 ⇒ 00:01:38.130 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Jenny’s….
2 00:01:42.040 ⇒ 00:01:43.950 Awaish Kumar: Hello?
3 00:01:47.470 ⇒ 00:01:48.570 Awaish Kumar: How are you doing?
4 00:01:49.320 ⇒ 00:01:51.590 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: I’m doing great, no complaints.
5 00:01:51.840 ⇒ 00:01:57.150 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: I actually thought I missed the meeting. I saw you send that thing, and someone sent something in Slack, and I was like, oh, man…
6 00:01:58.010 ⇒ 00:02:02.379 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: We just… but I didn’t, so… I’m doing really great.
7 00:02:03.660 ⇒ 00:02:04.910 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Okay, alright.
8 00:02:05.070 ⇒ 00:02:07.910 Awaish Kumar: Like, are you looking for some specific meeting?
9 00:02:08.850 ⇒ 00:02:12.190 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: No, no, no, this is it, this is it. I’ll just keep just adding some context.
10 00:02:12.680 ⇒ 00:02:13.620 Awaish Kumar: Okay.
11 00:02:14.080 ⇒ 00:02:19.020 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: So it’s me, Sirfield Thomas. I’m here. I think we’re waiting on Utom, and then we’re gonna get into it?
12 00:02:20.010 ⇒ 00:02:21.679 Awaish Kumar: Yeah, we are waiting for some.
13 00:02:22.580 ⇒ 00:02:23.420 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Labin?
14 00:02:24.400 ⇒ 00:02:26.119 Awaish Kumar: We are waiting for Utah colleague.
15 00:02:26.830 ⇒ 00:02:27.760 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Alright, perfect.
16 00:02:31.140 ⇒ 00:02:33.219 Awaish Kumar: Yeah, I’ve shared the talk
17 00:02:33.780 ⇒ 00:02:36.550 Awaish Kumar: Where I have copy-pasted the message.
18 00:02:36.750 ⇒ 00:02:39.049 Awaish Kumar: From Slack, yeah, we can review it.
19 00:02:40.720 ⇒ 00:02:41.690 Uttam Kumaran: Hey guys.
20 00:02:42.550 ⇒ 00:02:43.120 Awaish Kumar: Hello?
21 00:02:43.120 ⇒ 00:02:44.060 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Hey, Tom.
22 00:02:44.430 ⇒ 00:02:46.520 Uttam Kumaran: We’re waiting on you, bada!
23 00:02:47.150 ⇒ 00:02:51.950 Uttam Kumaran: Sorry, just finished my last thing. Okay, perfect, so let’s, …
24 00:02:52.260 ⇒ 00:03:05.560 Uttam Kumaran: how do you want to handle this, Mick? Maybe a waysh, do you want to lead, and I can help with comments? Kind of more critical that you and Surfer kind of attach the hip, but the goal of this meeting is I want to give
25 00:03:05.610 ⇒ 00:03:19.570 Uttam Kumaran: Robert, you know, sort of, like, a list of, like, action items, and kind of, like, our plan, and then he’s gonna go take that to the CEO, to just confirm before we… we figure out, like, where we can assist.
26 00:03:19.800 ⇒ 00:03:21.500 Uttam Kumaran: That’s probably my goal.
27 00:03:24.540 ⇒ 00:03:26.970 Awaish Kumar: Yeah, basically we need a, like, proposal, right?
28 00:03:27.900 ⇒ 00:03:28.880 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Yeah.
29 00:03:30.050 ⇒ 00:03:31.280 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Okay, cool.
30 00:03:32.250 ⇒ 00:03:32.900 Awaish Kumar: Howdy.
31 00:03:32.900 ⇒ 00:03:33.260 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: ….
32 00:03:33.260 ⇒ 00:03:36.820 Awaish Kumar: This is a message from… from them, like, I don’t know if….
33 00:03:37.110 ⇒ 00:03:37.929 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: So this is, like.
34 00:03:37.930 ⇒ 00:03:38.560 Awaish Kumar: facility?
35 00:03:39.460 ⇒ 00:03:49.450 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Let me just ask a really quick question, because you guys have done proposals before, and I feel like you probably have a process and a methodology for it, like, how you want to send out the proposals. Is this…
36 00:03:49.630 ⇒ 00:03:56.570 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Trying to understand what we’re trying to do to make sure that we price it and build it into, like, your… whatever your proposal process is correctly.
37 00:03:57.690 ⇒ 00:04:02.280 Uttam Kumaran: That’s correct. So mainly I… mainly I kind of want a sense of, like, hours.
38 00:04:02.570 ⇒ 00:04:03.770 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: And then….
39 00:04:03.770 ⇒ 00:04:07.269 Uttam Kumaran: For us, like, we’ve only promised that we’re gonna, like.
40 00:04:07.670 ⇒ 00:04:21.699 Uttam Kumaran: I don’t know if we’re gonna… how much implementation work, but I kind of want to give them, like, a couple of options, where it’s like, hey, for 5K a month, we can dedicate this many hours, and that will… like, here’s the roadmap.
41 00:04:21.779 ⇒ 00:04:28.430 Uttam Kumaran: at 5K a month, this is this, 10K is this, 15K is this, and at least we can sort of get some sense of, like.
42 00:04:28.780 ⇒ 00:04:30.420 Uttam Kumaran: What the deliverables are.
43 00:04:30.950 ⇒ 00:04:31.560 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Got you.
44 00:04:31.560 ⇒ 00:04:32.080 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
45 00:04:32.080 ⇒ 00:04:37.039 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: And at those different price range, are we going into the more, we will build it for you stuff?
46 00:04:38.390 ⇒ 00:04:40.860 Uttam Kumaran: I’m not sure, ….
47 00:04:40.860 ⇒ 00:04:42.480 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Consulting, yep, Shukko.
48 00:04:43.180 ⇒ 00:04:44.090 Uttam Kumaran: It…
49 00:04:44.490 ⇒ 00:04:49.870 Uttam Kumaran: you know, I think for the most part, we’ve just offered to be consultants and help them build it.
50 00:04:50.010 ⇒ 00:04:57.479 Uttam Kumaran: I’m gonna kind of give them both. I’m gonna say, like, you can spend the hours any way you want.
51 00:04:57.600 ⇒ 00:05:02.169 Uttam Kumaran: But these are the clear work streams that… because… so, kind of the… the…
52 00:05:02.460 ⇒ 00:05:18.470 Uttam Kumaran: what we found is… what basically what happened is these guys got bought by another client of ours. That client likes us and is like, hey, can you guys just, like, go figure out what they’re doing and give them a path forward to integrate with us? And so, I feel like it’s gonna be majority consulting.
53 00:05:18.820 ⇒ 00:05:23.140 Uttam Kumaran: So I’m gonna kind of just bucket as, like, hey, you’re gonna have a bucket of these hours.
54 00:05:23.350 ⇒ 00:05:33.719 Uttam Kumaran: And here… here are the initiatives that are really… here’s the initiatives and the outcomes that are clear to us based on what we were sent, and the time it’s gonna take to do those, so….
55 00:05:33.910 ⇒ 00:05:39.390 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Got it. Alright, so I like how you said that. I’m gonna ask a question to make sure that I’m giving you the best.
56 00:05:39.490 ⇒ 00:05:40.640 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: …
57 00:05:40.950 ⇒ 00:05:48.599 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: From that perspective, the client that likes you guys, do you do only consulting with them, or do you do implementation.
58 00:05:48.600 ⇒ 00:05:50.340 Uttam Kumaran: No, we do both. We do both.
59 00:05:50.340 ⇒ 00:05:51.650 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Sure. Okay.
60 00:05:51.650 ⇒ 00:05:55.900 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah. So there may… so, like, they know you, and they know your style and your feel.
61 00:05:56.140 ⇒ 00:05:58.440 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: So, again, I don’t know if it’s… well, I was….
62 00:05:58.440 ⇒ 00:06:06.239 Uttam Kumaran: So I think… so I think basically what I want to give them an… yeah, I want to give them an option that’s like, look, Remo has engineers.
63 00:06:06.370 ⇒ 00:06:12.159 Uttam Kumaran: So, if you guys want us to just guide them, Then, we just consult.
64 00:06:12.290 ⇒ 00:06:14.249 Uttam Kumaran: If you want us to also build.
65 00:06:14.390 ⇒ 00:06:20.980 Uttam Kumaran: here’s, like, what it’s gonna take. So, ideally, we lay out what the work streams are, we lay out how much it’s gonna take.
66 00:06:21.090 ⇒ 00:06:27.209 Uttam Kumaran: On the consulting hours and the engineering hours, then we basically say, like, here’s probably what you’re looking at.
67 00:06:27.500 ⇒ 00:06:28.350 Uttam Kumaran: ….
68 00:06:28.350 ⇒ 00:06:29.220 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Got it.
69 00:06:29.350 ⇒ 00:06:37.219 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Yeah. Got it. I guess from that perspective, if we do take on a role with engineering hours, we would be leveraging the current BrainForge engineers, correct?
70 00:06:38.410 ⇒ 00:06:48.169 Uttam Kumaran: That’s correct. I mean, that’s where I think it’s… it’s sort of up to… it’s sort of up to us. So whether that’s, like, this, the three of us, or yeah, we… we bring on more people.
71 00:06:48.170 ⇒ 00:06:48.560 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Got it.
72 00:06:48.560 ⇒ 00:06:51.599 Uttam Kumaran: Ideally, it’s not the three of us. Like, ideally, we stay….
73 00:06:52.020 ⇒ 00:06:53.810 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: That’s really where I want to just make sure.
74 00:06:53.810 ⇒ 00:06:55.560 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, it’s not us.
75 00:06:56.090 ⇒ 00:06:57.810 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Alright, cool, sweet. Alright, cool, sweet, love this.
76 00:06:57.810 ⇒ 00:07:05.560 Uttam Kumaran: the three of us would stay on consulting. I think Awashia’s currently doing some development work for Eden, but basically, if this gets approved, then I can go
77 00:07:05.780 ⇒ 00:07:13.880 Uttam Kumaran: staff this, and… and yeah, I think the three of us, I want to stay, but ideally, again, the… the two of you guys, I want to stay, like, at the solution architect level.
78 00:07:17.470 ⇒ 00:07:18.010 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Okay, cool.
79 00:07:18.700 ⇒ 00:07:19.529 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Alright, I’m ready.
80 00:07:20.670 ⇒ 00:07:25.010 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Access to current system behavior and data event logs. This is the beginning of it, right?
81 00:07:25.260 ⇒ 00:07:26.920 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: All the way at the top.
82 00:07:27.470 ⇒ 00:07:33.609 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Access to current system behavior, data, and event logs, is that the highest, the thing all the way at the top?
83 00:07:35.270 ⇒ 00:07:39.280 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Oh, we’re only talking about what I’m seeing on this From Cameron section, right?
84 00:07:40.400 ⇒ 00:07:41.340 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, yeah.
85 00:07:41.340 ⇒ 00:07:45.620 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Alright, cool. All of the tooling that they look… use makes sense.
86 00:07:45.960 ⇒ 00:07:49.120 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: V4 async process.
87 00:07:49.430 ⇒ 00:07:59.959 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Typescript, architectural pattern, monorepo, structure with Turbo Repo for optimized builds, clean separation between API and dashboard.
88 00:08:00.170 ⇒ 00:08:08.499 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Okay… data-driven designs, a clear boundary system, CL components core.
89 00:08:08.790 ⇒ 00:08:20.010 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: User authentication, multi-tenants with… Role-based access… Owner, admin, members… …
90 00:08:20.680 ⇒ 00:08:27.659 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Okay, we need the definitions for what those can, and that might be lower. No, no, go back up, too fast. Just go back up a little bit.
91 00:08:28.730 ⇒ 00:08:30.469 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Right here, right here, right here, good, you’re good.
92 00:08:30.780 ⇒ 00:08:47.790 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Health entities, stores, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, associations, direct integration with pharmacy systems, APIs, so you have to do some API work, just, like, document it, because I’m assuming we’re going to generate, like, RFCs and stuff, if that matters, that here’s how you should do… yeah, okay, cool.
93 00:08:47.900 ⇒ 00:08:53.719 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: NPI engines… main application endpoint…
94 00:08:53.960 ⇒ 00:09:05.630 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: off, medications, offering, pharmacy, store, user, user management, event architecture. All external events will be coming in via webhook, which are processed through our
95 00:09:06.090 ⇒ 00:09:14.929 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: cirger.dev integration. I’m assuming that’s a background job function thing that they’re using, but I can look into that. Pharmacy provider synchronization…
96 00:09:15.140 ⇒ 00:09:21.000 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: NIPS provider, data updates, payment processing, callback, scroll down more.
97 00:09:21.590 ⇒ 00:09:26.180 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Clinical events… clinical event notifications…
98 00:09:26.790 ⇒ 00:09:39.219 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Okay, security, security, headers, cores, configurations, token-based authentication, recession management, payment base, additional security.
99 00:09:41.300 ⇒ 00:09:45.469 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Yeah, they’re laying out the things that they already do. Data encryption, PII,
100 00:09:45.590 ⇒ 00:09:50.729 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Bcrypt, best in… which is the best in class for,
101 00:09:50.940 ⇒ 00:09:56.370 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Throwing passwords, real-time updates, using LD for live data synchronization.
102 00:09:56.770 ⇒ 00:10:00.270 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Asynchronous process back on jobs for heavy operations.
103 00:10:00.430 ⇒ 00:10:08.189 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: type safety end-to-end with RCBC and Zod. Yeah, knows odd validations. Scalable architecture.
104 00:10:08.410 ⇒ 00:10:14.689 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Horizontal scaling already with… Stateless API design. This system is designed to handle healthcare workflows.
105 00:10:14.870 ⇒ 00:10:19.599 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: the proper audit trails, rule-based permissions, and integration capabilities for… Alright.
106 00:10:19.860 ⇒ 00:10:23.450 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Have you guys ever done any work like this before, Wutang?
107 00:10:24.980 ⇒ 00:10:32.080 Uttam Kumaran: We have consulted on data architecture, but nothing on the back-end architecture side.
108 00:10:32.700 ⇒ 00:10:38.910 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Got you. Could, for a client that went really, really well for you guys on the data architecture side.
109 00:10:39.170 ⇒ 00:10:49.490 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: could you tell me how many, or send me documentation on how many hours it was, and what were all of the artifacts? Because I’m assuming you have, like, a drive folder with all that stuff, and then, like, how….
110 00:10:49.490 ⇒ 00:10:50.070 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
111 00:10:50.070 ⇒ 00:11:00.949 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: It took… give me that, because I just want to match the level of fidelity, because it’s… again, it’s similar. I want to make sure we’re crafting in your guys’ style, that sort of thing.
112 00:11:00.950 ⇒ 00:11:05.060 Uttam Kumaran: So maybe, Awash, we can… we can write it at the top of this, …
113 00:11:05.510 ⇒ 00:11:22.460 Uttam Kumaran: because I just want to note down, like, what, like… basically, like, we have these two goals, right? So there’s infrastructure strategy, architecture, and we still have this, like, second piece. So one is, like, we need to produce for them an overall,
114 00:11:23.240 ⇒ 00:11:26.889 Uttam Kumaran: like, architecture document about all these tools, so…
115 00:11:27.460 ⇒ 00:11:38.199 Uttam Kumaran: as he mentioned, he shared all this, but I think we should get this into probably a spreadsheet. We typically have a version of this for the data platform documentation, which includes all of these tools.
116 00:11:38.600 ⇒ 00:11:43.720 Uttam Kumaran: potentially costs, Also, potentially proposed tool changes.
117 00:11:44.640 ⇒ 00:11:50.780 Uttam Kumaran: So we have a version of this that we can mold for this doc. Second is, I want to produce
118 00:11:51.130 ⇒ 00:11:53.340 Uttam Kumaran: Two, sort of, longer…
119 00:11:53.520 ⇒ 00:11:59.929 Uttam Kumaran: work streams. So, if you scroll to the top, Awash, here, we have these two work streams, right?
120 00:12:00.170 ⇒ 00:12:04.299 Uttam Kumaran: … So, the infrastructure strategy and architecture.
121 00:12:04.410 ⇒ 00:12:11.820 Uttam Kumaran: Right? So, one is, I would be great as an outcome to have a list of, like, open questions from our side.
122 00:12:12.410 ⇒ 00:12:14.880 Uttam Kumaran: Open opportunities for optimization.
123 00:12:15.260 ⇒ 00:12:20.930 Uttam Kumaran: And, like, anything we want to propose change-wise, ….
124 00:12:20.930 ⇒ 00:12:21.510 Awaish Kumar: Perhaps.
125 00:12:21.510 ⇒ 00:12:29.499 Uttam Kumaran: Second is, like, this analytics scope is, I think, like, one of the most important things, which is, like, how can we start to get the data
126 00:12:29.830 ⇒ 00:12:33.960 Uttam Kumaran: from… the tool into… BigQuery.
127 00:12:34.230 ⇒ 00:12:36.159 Uttam Kumaran: Was there anything else, Awash?
128 00:12:37.530 ⇒ 00:12:42.290 Awaish Kumar: No, that’s mainly… So that… so what… for what the…
129 00:12:42.500 ⇒ 00:12:48.580 Awaish Kumar: What they are concerned about is that they have built up Platform, which is working.
130 00:12:49.220 ⇒ 00:12:56.240 Awaish Kumar: But they are not confident that it is, like, when it is… when it gets deployed.
131 00:12:56.490 ⇒ 00:13:00.349 Awaish Kumar: it’s going to scale as Paradeens customers, like.
132 00:13:00.600 ⇒ 00:13:11.829 Awaish Kumar: there will be, like, maybe millions of users using it. It might not scale and be responsive or whatever. So they want to make sure that a consultant comes in.
133 00:13:11.940 ⇒ 00:13:24.109 Awaish Kumar: Sees the system and gives feedback on where it can be optimized, where we need to change the technologies, or what, like, what… how the architecture is going to look like.
134 00:13:24.270 ⇒ 00:13:28.310 Awaish Kumar: And, like, As a best, like, what is the best practices?
135 00:13:31.040 ⇒ 00:13:36.770 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Yeah, I agree, and I get that. I think… The biggest thing is… Right, like…
136 00:13:39.290 ⇒ 00:13:42.780 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: You can give someone a solution that’s gonna solve the problem.
137 00:13:43.100 ⇒ 00:13:48.249 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Infinitum, and, like, kind of, like, forever, or you can fit the solution to…
138 00:13:48.950 ⇒ 00:13:53.049 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: where they currently are. If you build it to suit
139 00:13:53.210 ⇒ 00:13:56.190 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: It’ll always work exactly as intended.
140 00:13:56.590 ⇒ 00:14:01.729 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: And I guess I’m saying that to say, you already know the client that they’re building it to suit.
141 00:14:01.830 ⇒ 00:14:07.109 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: So you already have data and analysis around how much of the workload that is.
142 00:14:07.280 ⇒ 00:14:09.150 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: So, we can take that.
143 00:14:09.710 ⇒ 00:14:18.679 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: as a large, like, stepping stone and integration piece, to know exactly how big of a system to build. So, like, one of the things that I was like, alright, you want to do event streaming?
144 00:14:18.800 ⇒ 00:14:23.700 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Can we leverage, like, what’s more important to the client?
145 00:14:24.500 ⇒ 00:14:29.770 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Reassurance that the message was delivered? Or… …
146 00:14:30.260 ⇒ 00:14:40.010 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: making sure that it can sustain a vast amount of transactions. And the reason why I say that is there’s two different technologies that you would use for that, right? …
147 00:14:40.600 ⇒ 00:14:47.339 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: … Pafka is the best in class if you’re doing messages at scale.
148 00:14:47.730 ⇒ 00:14:50.730 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: But it doesn’t have message reliability built in.
149 00:14:50.890 ⇒ 00:15:01.619 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Right? So you might miss a message. In the healthcare world, I’m assuming that’s not good. So then you would want to use something that’s a message bush, which has an acknowledgement system, which is, like, every single time a message is sent.
150 00:15:01.780 ⇒ 00:15:06.499 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: You can replay it, there’s an acknowledgement of saying, I received it, those sorts of things.
151 00:15:06.600 ⇒ 00:15:20.989 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: So, the bound there is, do we need to use Kafka and build a system of reliability around it, because they’re sending so many messages, or are they sending enough messages for us to use a message bus? And again.
152 00:15:21.230 ⇒ 00:15:26.550 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: The orders of magnitude there, like, are we talking about 100,000?
153 00:15:26.660 ⇒ 00:15:29.590 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Messages a second, or 10 million.
154 00:15:29.860 ⇒ 00:15:48.379 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: 100,000 could be handled by a message bus, a million couldn’t be handled by a message bus, it would be managed by, something like Kafka, but then you have to build more to make it more reliable for this use case. So, like, that’s what I mean. It’s like, I can give you a very specific solution for a very specific problem that’s very
155 00:15:48.410 ⇒ 00:15:54.109 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: that, like, is going to work and helping scale, I would assume that…
156 00:15:54.240 ⇒ 00:16:03.539 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Because again, we’ve worked at really, really large organizations. At Venmo, we weren’t doing more than 1,000 transactions per second at any given point in time, and that’s a lot.
157 00:16:03.740 ⇒ 00:16:17.250 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: So, if you’re not in the world of order of magnitudes of even that, you don’t need the Kafka, you need the message bus. But I guess that would be my question to you guys, because you’re… you already see… you’re seeing the data from, ….
158 00:16:17.250 ⇒ 00:16:17.790 Awaish Kumar: Hmm.
159 00:16:18.100 ⇒ 00:16:21.000 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: the company that is buying Remo.
160 00:16:21.160 ⇒ 00:16:26.700 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Therefore, give me some of that data to help with the recommendation.
161 00:16:27.280 ⇒ 00:16:30.199 Awaish Kumar: Yeah, we do have that information, and I can share it with you.
162 00:16:31.160 ⇒ 00:16:32.020 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Nope.
163 00:16:32.450 ⇒ 00:16:37.889 Awaish Kumar: So we have, like, a number of events which are being sent to our warehouse.
164 00:16:38.190 ⇒ 00:16:43.009 Awaish Kumar: And, … Active customers and orders and everything, we can share that.
165 00:16:43.740 ⇒ 00:16:45.449 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Cool, yep, I love this, yeah.
166 00:16:45.600 ⇒ 00:16:52.770 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: And then everything I know is gonna need to be, HIPAA compliant, all of that sort of stuff, which is fine. Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep.
167 00:16:53.460 ⇒ 00:16:54.909 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: I gotcha.
168 00:16:57.040 ⇒ 00:16:57.790 Awaish Kumar: I’m cool.
169 00:16:59.250 ⇒ 00:17:04.269 Awaish Kumar: Okay, so I will share that information about the client.
170 00:17:04.380 ⇒ 00:17:08.510 Awaish Kumar: for… which will be, like, their… one of their clients, like, they can scale.
171 00:17:08.510 ⇒ 00:17:10.449 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: They also want to scale.
172 00:17:10.450 ⇒ 00:17:14.950 Awaish Kumar: For multiple fans, so we… Have to keep that in mind while building the system.
173 00:17:16.390 ⇒ 00:17:16.940 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Agreed.
174 00:17:17.569 ⇒ 00:17:26.819 Awaish Kumar: Secondly, about the webhooks thing, like, I don’t know, like, … I’ll, like…
175 00:17:27.069 ⇒ 00:17:33.029 Awaish Kumar: That system is responsible for sending the Evans.
176 00:17:33.309 ⇒ 00:17:40.109 Awaish Kumar: … to not just Kafka, like, it will be kind of general…
177 00:17:40.509 ⇒ 00:17:45.499 Awaish Kumar: solution, like… so, for example, if I’m using Segment, So…
178 00:17:45.739 ⇒ 00:18:00.199 Awaish Kumar: that system should have a system where to create a webhook where I provide a URL and a token, and it will start sending the events there. If some other… any other client of theirs, maybe uses some other system.
179 00:18:00.349 ⇒ 00:18:04.709 Awaish Kumar: To get their events. It will, like, so they will send…
180 00:18:04.949 ⇒ 00:18:10.169 Awaish Kumar: the events to, for example, register, or whatever tool they are using. So.
181 00:18:10.170 ⇒ 00:18:14.850 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: So, I’ll give you an… I’ll give you an interesting answer here, right? And I guess…
182 00:18:15.630 ⇒ 00:18:27.840 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: what you’re gonna get out of an RFC, especially for me, is a bunch of potential options and a recommendation, right? So, here’s what you’re gonna see in that scenario. There’s two ways you could do background jobs, right?
183 00:18:28.150 ⇒ 00:18:40.399 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: you can do a webhook, and then have that webhook connected to the message bus, right? Which allows the webhook to be freestanding and taking as much hits as possible, knowing that you’re gonna matriculate the data later.
184 00:18:40.570 ⇒ 00:18:41.380 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Right?
185 00:18:41.640 ⇒ 00:18:46.199 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Or, you can do a message-passing bus across the companies.
186 00:18:46.850 ⇒ 00:18:54.260 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: the… Ladder… I mean, the former is better
187 00:18:54.370 ⇒ 00:19:00.860 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: If you want, again, to scale to multiple users, because everyone understands a webhook, like, in concept.
188 00:19:01.270 ⇒ 00:19:20.830 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Right? The latter is a tighter integration between the two companies, so it creates coupling, right? But in that coupling, there’s less work there, right? Because you don’t have to think about the webhook itself, the management of making sure the webhook stays up, because the webhook is most likely going to be built into some other piece of infrastructure.
189 00:19:21.240 ⇒ 00:19:30.070 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Right? So it’s like, to go webhook, you have to have a server, and then you still need the message passing bus on the back piece. If you just go with the message box.
190 00:19:30.100 ⇒ 00:19:44.779 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: it’s now tightly coupled between those two companies, and you can’t really scale it beyond that, right? Because, like, every time you bring in a new company, you have to bring a… like, create a new webhook, which isn’t hard, but it’s just more custom. Versus a webhook, you can just…
191 00:19:44.890 ⇒ 00:19:57.590 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: change the schema and say, new company send to the same webhook, but you send, like, with your ID, and then we’ll automatically generate the message bus and do all that sort of stuff. So it’s like, again, there’s different trade-offs. I’m gonna assume…
192 00:19:57.590 ⇒ 00:20:07.759 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: the latter still is better. I mean… wait, is it the latter? Yeah, the webhook version is still better, because it allows for more scalability, but that’s what I mean, like…
193 00:20:08.090 ⇒ 00:20:15.309 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: I’m gonna give you all of those sorts of scenarios and differences so that they can ponder about, like, all that sort of stuff.
194 00:20:15.870 ⇒ 00:20:17.070 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Does that make sense? Okay.
195 00:20:20.620 ⇒ 00:20:21.529 Uttam Kumaran: Makes sense.
196 00:20:21.820 ⇒ 00:20:22.400 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Cool.
197 00:20:22.400 ⇒ 00:20:23.040 Awaish Kumar: True.
198 00:20:28.710 ⇒ 00:20:33.339 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Quick question. Are the things that Cameron listed here
199 00:20:34.250 ⇒ 00:20:40.910 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: It seems like it’s things that they’re already using, or is it some of these things they want to start using?
200 00:20:42.640 ⇒ 00:20:50.949 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Right? Because, like, some of the, like, runtimes and stuff like that seems like, oh yeah, that makes sense. It seems like… it seems like this is a list of things they’re already doing, they just want to know
201 00:20:51.330 ⇒ 00:20:56.420 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: If it’s correct on how to string it together better, potentially?
202 00:20:56.780 ⇒ 00:20:58.020 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: But yeah, you can go.
203 00:20:59.100 ⇒ 00:21:10.960 Awaish Kumar: So, yeah, what they shared with us is that the system is ready, and, like, everything is, implemented and ready to deploy. So, but…
204 00:21:11.290 ⇒ 00:21:13.770 Awaish Kumar: That, like, if… when we share…
205 00:21:14.150 ⇒ 00:21:25.359 Awaish Kumar: the proposal, and then, like, you are going to meet with him regularly. Like, we are going to get more information. Right now, what he says is that it’s built and everything is ready to go.
206 00:21:26.830 ⇒ 00:21:36.649 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Okay. So everything that shows here is already built, ready to go. What they really want to understand is, is it ready to go from a scalability and that sort of perspective?
207 00:21:37.130 ⇒ 00:21:37.880 Awaish Kumar: So, as a developer.
208 00:21:37.880 ⇒ 00:21:39.840 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Changes should…
209 00:21:40.200 ⇒ 00:21:51.249 Awaish Kumar: As a developer, yeah, as a developer, he says that he has implemented the features, but the CEO is more concerned that when things are going to scale, is it really…
210 00:21:52.810 ⇒ 00:22:02.240 Awaish Kumar: like, going to work as, like, as smooth as it is working for fewer data, fewer customers. So that’s what he needs, …
211 00:22:02.430 ⇒ 00:22:04.530 Awaish Kumar: A second pair of eyes, or a more…
212 00:22:05.920 ⇒ 00:22:07.670 Awaish Kumar: Kind of review from… Got it.
213 00:22:08.440 ⇒ 00:22:17.700 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Okay, when we present, like, whatever we present, are we going to be presenting it to the CEO, or is it always going to be Cameron and team?
214 00:22:18.510 ⇒ 00:22:20.780 Awaish Kumar: No, it’s going to be Seal, as well.
215 00:22:21.460 ⇒ 00:22:24.990 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Okay, cool. Alright, because I want to make sure that whatever our messaging is.
216 00:22:25.170 ⇒ 00:22:33.319 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: speaks to that, because sometimes the C-suite doesn’t have the same level of technical prowess.
217 00:22:33.630 ⇒ 00:22:45.710 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: not really me saying that as a bad thing, it’s just… I want to make sure, like… I guess the other adage is, like, you want to make sure you explain stuff like a 10-year-old, so everyone can just understand, without giving them, like, unnecessary acronyms, all that sort of stuff.
218 00:22:45.960 ⇒ 00:22:48.140 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: So, okay, that helps, that makes sense.
219 00:22:48.330 ⇒ 00:22:53.119 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: … What else? Could you scroll all the way to the bottom of this doc?
220 00:22:53.880 ⇒ 00:22:58.409 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: I wanna make sure I’m not missing anything. I’m gonna look at the doc again a little later.
221 00:23:01.510 ⇒ 00:23:05.789 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: … oh, they send the actual prisoners and all that stuff, too.
222 00:23:06.120 ⇒ 00:23:09.459 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: project scaling ready with stateless API design yet? Okay.
223 00:23:10.120 ⇒ 00:23:16.210 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Okay, … But… This makes sense.
224 00:23:16.950 ⇒ 00:23:17.950 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: …
225 00:23:19.400 ⇒ 00:23:25.029 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Let me think. Oh, and then you did say, how are we going to ingest all this data into BigQuery as well?
226 00:23:26.220 ⇒ 00:23:28.219 Awaish Kumar: So that’s like webhooks, right?
227 00:23:29.070 ⇒ 00:23:29.600 Awaish Kumar: And I know.
228 00:23:29.600 ⇒ 00:23:32.429 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: That’s what the webhooks are talking about, so….
229 00:23:32.510 ⇒ 00:23:39.959 Awaish Kumar: The data which is… like, their system is going to send every event to some webhook.
230 00:23:40.110 ⇒ 00:23:47.459 Awaish Kumar: And that… Or any better solution you have. And then that data is going to be
231 00:23:47.580 ⇒ 00:23:53.480 Awaish Kumar: from that tool going to be somewhere in… in some warehouse, right? But that’s, like.
232 00:23:55.240 ⇒ 00:23:57.629 Awaish Kumar: So we need to provide a support
233 00:23:57.840 ⇒ 00:24:05.980 Awaish Kumar: Through which the events can be synced to a warehouse using some tools like Segment or whatever.
234 00:24:06.840 ⇒ 00:24:12.170 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Got it. I guess you guys know a little bit more about the data warehouse than me. ….
235 00:24:13.550 ⇒ 00:24:17.319 Awaish Kumar: Yeah, but it is… so we are here not talking about, …
236 00:24:17.480 ⇒ 00:24:25.909 Awaish Kumar: how it exactly is going to be in warehouse. We are just going… we are just talking about how the events from a backend system
237 00:24:26.040 ⇒ 00:24:27.969 Awaish Kumar: Going to get sent.
238 00:24:29.150 ⇒ 00:24:34.939 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: So, I agree, but I think both kind of matter, and I was going to ask you guys a question, because you guys have done this before, right?
239 00:24:35.210 ⇒ 00:24:38.819 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: From a data warehousing perspective, it seems like usually…
240 00:24:39.160 ⇒ 00:24:42.380 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: You don’t stream the events to the warehouse real time.
241 00:24:42.580 ⇒ 00:24:47.979 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: It’s usually some background job that scoops all the data up and, like, shears it as a partial.
242 00:24:48.100 ⇒ 00:24:53.279 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: You can do this, but usually the data warehouse is running large aggregation jobs that are, like.
243 00:24:53.690 ⇒ 00:24:59.319 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Not real time enough to need it to sync the data in real time.
244 00:24:59.470 ⇒ 00:25:01.149 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Am I thinking about that wrong?
245 00:25:02.790 ⇒ 00:25:06.610 Awaish Kumar: Yeah, usually it is, but here we are more talk… dealing with the real time.
246 00:25:07.360 ⇒ 00:25:12.879 Awaish Kumar: data. So we want, like, they want to sync the data as soon as possible.
247 00:25:13.360 ⇒ 00:25:14.420 Awaish Kumar: Sure.
248 00:25:15.450 ⇒ 00:25:18.349 Awaish Kumar: Yeah, we are… we are looking for real, real time.
249 00:25:20.370 ⇒ 00:25:23.800 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Well, hold on, right? Because, like, again, we are the…
250 00:25:23.900 ⇒ 00:25:43.699 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: We’re consulting, right? So, like, we’re telling them what they should do based on it doing best in class, right? And, like, you guys have done data warehouse integrations before, right? Yeah. Do you usually do, Tom, push real time, like, like, as an integration point, real time into the data lake, or the data….
251 00:25:43.700 ⇒ 00:25:44.530 Uttam Kumaran: Depends.
252 00:25:44.840 ⇒ 00:25:54.249 Uttam Kumaran: Depends. Like, if the SLA for analytics is, like, high, then maybe, but not usually. Like, usually it’s all batch.
253 00:25:54.250 ⇒ 00:25:56.510 Awaish Kumar: So as long as it gets resolved….
254 00:25:56.510 ⇒ 00:25:56.940 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
255 00:25:57.890 ⇒ 00:26:04.860 Awaish Kumar: For the client, for example, the RMO is building a system for one of their clients, which is Eden, and that’s
256 00:26:05.020 ⇒ 00:26:07.669 Awaish Kumar: And it’s our client as well. For them.
257 00:26:08.090 ⇒ 00:26:16.090 Awaish Kumar: Basically, they are looking for real-time changes, so we basically kind of sync data every hour.
258 00:26:16.230 ⇒ 00:26:17.650 Awaish Kumar: For them.
259 00:26:17.870 ⇒ 00:26:18.215 Awaish Kumar: Woof.
260 00:26:19.220 ⇒ 00:26:19.870 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Yeah, Paul.
261 00:26:19.870 ⇒ 00:26:26.179 Uttam Kumaran: So, like, you’re saying they need to devise, like, a Google… so you’re saying we need to devise a warehouse
262 00:26:26.350 ⇒ 00:26:29.019 Uttam Kumaran: Framework that they can support any other client on.
263 00:26:32.100 ⇒ 00:26:36.789 Uttam Kumaran: Or is this for… is this for the customer-facing analytics in the platform?
264 00:26:37.880 ⇒ 00:26:49.309 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: So now you see where I’m actually trying to get to, right? Because, like, based on what you just tell said, right? If you need it down to the hourly level, again, it’s a batched job.
265 00:26:49.310 ⇒ 00:26:49.770 Uttam Kumaran: That’s a bag.
266 00:26:49.770 ⇒ 00:26:53.639 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Right, it’s not… exactly, it’s not real time, which is like…
267 00:26:54.000 ⇒ 00:27:01.370 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: the thing that we’re building it for to hit, right? There’s, like, different SLAs across different parts of the system.
268 00:27:01.690 ⇒ 00:27:06.770 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Right? The analytics dashboard needs the events real time to, like, show graphs and charts.
269 00:27:07.060 ⇒ 00:27:11.759 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Right? Like, the actual dashboard, but that’s gonna always be powered by Postgres.
270 00:27:12.290 ⇒ 00:27:21.370 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: the analytics capabilities of the big warehouse is always going to usually be, I need to do some Marstone aggregation to understand something crazy.
271 00:27:21.480 ⇒ 00:27:35.849 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: And, like, typically, like, even if it’s down to the hour level, that’s fine, right? But that’s still not a real-time job, so we don’t have to use the message bus for that piece. Which is why I’m like, part of the consulting is a recommendation that is best in class. The question is.
272 00:27:36.190 ⇒ 00:27:41.899 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: in Clash. And usually, if you’re talking about a warehouse.
273 00:27:42.020 ⇒ 00:27:47.929 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: It’s used to run large aggregations, and it’s… you want it to get near to real time, but not real time.
274 00:27:48.630 ⇒ 00:27:50.750 Awaish Kumar: So, there are two things, so… so….
275 00:27:50.750 ⇒ 00:27:51.280 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: True.
276 00:27:51.280 ⇒ 00:27:55.080 Awaish Kumar: Well, the client, Aiden, is already using the system.
277 00:27:55.200 ⇒ 00:28:01.840 Awaish Kumar: Right? Which is called PASC, and that is sending the data in real time.
278 00:28:02.040 ⇒ 00:28:09.759 Awaish Kumar: So why we are not getting the data in real time is because of the downstream tools we are using, and …
279 00:28:10.100 ⇒ 00:28:20.499 Awaish Kumar: And because of those reasons, the data is not being synced in real time, but the… that webhook, the PaaS, which is a backend system.
280 00:28:20.880 ⇒ 00:28:27.850 Awaish Kumar: for running the operations for client Aiden. So, basically, they are sending the events in real time.
281 00:28:28.060 ⇒ 00:28:32.240 Awaish Kumar: Into the, the segment tool where we are capturing those events.
282 00:28:35.480 ⇒ 00:28:45.780 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Alright, so cool, I like this. So, sending an event to a tool like Segment allows it also to show up in the segment dashboards and stuff like that in real time.
283 00:28:45.960 ⇒ 00:28:49.749 Awaish Kumar: But the back-end piece of that, right?
284 00:28:49.750 ⇒ 00:28:53.659 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Right? If you’re then taking it from segment and then putting it into a warehouse.
285 00:28:53.780 ⇒ 00:28:56.629 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: That doesn’t have… that stitching doesn’t have to happen real time.
286 00:28:57.100 ⇒ 00:28:59.340 Awaish Kumar: Yeah, that’s because of segments.
287 00:29:00.050 ⇒ 00:29:04.230 Awaish Kumar: like, restrictions, right? Based on plan, they have different restrictions.
288 00:29:06.410 ⇒ 00:29:07.180 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Got it.
289 00:29:08.190 ⇒ 00:29:08.850 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Hmm.
290 00:29:09.820 ⇒ 00:29:20.170 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Okay, and I guess the real-time capabilities here, is it an ask from Remo, or an ask from our client that… well, I guess it’s always an ask from our being client, because they own Remo now.
291 00:29:21.970 ⇒ 00:29:22.460 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Right?
292 00:29:22.460 ⇒ 00:29:31.849 Awaish Kumar: So… Yeah, that’s an ask from Eden, so… but the remote is basically… is supporting Eden as well, so…
293 00:29:31.990 ⇒ 00:29:34.790 Awaish Kumar: I’m sure they are going to ask for that as well.
294 00:29:35.000 ⇒ 00:29:35.980 Awaish Kumar: Yep.
295 00:29:37.080 ⇒ 00:29:44.029 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Okay, so I guess… Hmm… Who’s… the proposal’s going to Eden, is this correct?
296 00:29:45.570 ⇒ 00:29:48.070 Awaish Kumar: is going to be on to demo, right?
297 00:29:49.040 ⇒ 00:29:52.640 Uttam Kumaran: Well, the Remo CEO is the Eden CEO.
298 00:29:53.130 ⇒ 00:29:53.630 Awaish Kumar: Yeah.
299 00:29:53.630 ⇒ 00:29:55.270 Uttam Kumaran: Like, because they bought that, so….
300 00:29:55.470 ⇒ 00:29:57.630 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Okay, cool. So that is….
301 00:29:57.630 ⇒ 00:30:00.939 Uttam Kumaran: It’s going just to the top. Either way, it’s going to the top.
302 00:30:01.360 ⇒ 00:30:04.380 Uttam Kumaran: The thing is that Eden’s CEO doesn’t really trust
303 00:30:04.650 ⇒ 00:30:06.959 Uttam Kumaran: That these guys are, like, getting it done.
304 00:30:07.190 ⇒ 00:30:10.050 Uttam Kumaran: And they just want a second look at everything.
305 00:30:10.390 ⇒ 00:30:19.000 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Got it. Alright, who would be akin to the CEO, lower, that we could talk to about some of the stuff we’re talking about right now?
306 00:30:19.610 ⇒ 00:30:21.429 Uttam Kumaran: Just the people in the remote channel.
307 00:30:22.090 ⇒ 00:30:22.570 Awaish Kumar: Yep.
308 00:30:22.570 ⇒ 00:30:23.230 Uttam Kumaran: There’s no way.
309 00:30:23.230 ⇒ 00:30:27.120 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Are those the people… are those the people that we talked to last time on the call?
310 00:30:27.920 ⇒ 00:30:29.289 Uttam Kumaran: That’s one of them, yeah.
311 00:30:29.900 ⇒ 00:30:33.569 Awaish Kumar: Yeah, it’s Cameroon or Raym, like, these are two people, mainly.
312 00:30:33.570 ⇒ 00:30:35.050 Uttam Kumaran: Those are the two people, yeah.
313 00:30:35.610 ⇒ 00:30:38.699 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Got it. I wanna iron… well, I guess there’s… there’s….
314 00:30:39.510 ⇒ 00:30:44.680 Uttam Kumaran: So, when we go to… when we go… so the… so the open questions I want to add as part of the proposal.
315 00:30:45.500 ⇒ 00:30:49.200 Uttam Kumaran: But either way, there’s so many open questions that I basically want to just say, like.
316 00:30:49.770 ⇒ 00:30:53.619 Uttam Kumaran: These are still open. We have not gotten an answer on this.
317 00:30:55.060 ⇒ 00:31:01.270 Uttam Kumaran: this does shape the proposal, but here’s a proposal, and here’s open questions. Let’s start ironing stuff out.
318 00:31:02.050 ⇒ 00:31:02.850 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Got it.
319 00:31:03.460 ⇒ 00:31:09.289 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: … Okay, this meeting is also being recorded, so I want to make sure I synthesize
320 00:31:09.870 ⇒ 00:31:17.040 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: and get that stuff in… get that stuff in, because I think that’s the thing, right? It’s like… I…
321 00:31:17.910 ⇒ 00:31:19.630 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: when I walk, like…
322 00:31:20.110 ⇒ 00:31:24.040 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: and this is me, and I’m assuming you guys do it the same way. When you walk into a client.
323 00:31:24.320 ⇒ 00:31:29.290 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: As the consultant, you are trying to teach them what’s best in class, because they came to you because they don’t really know.
324 00:31:29.560 ⇒ 00:31:34.759 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Right? So their requirement might be X, but it doesn’t mean the requirement is correct.
325 00:31:35.410 ⇒ 00:31:42.400 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Right? Like, and again, I think the sticking point here is, like, real-time analytics to what extent, right? Like.
326 00:31:42.600 ⇒ 00:31:50.489 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Right? And there’s, like, reasons why these different systems are kind of built this sort of way. So, like, again, I’m not neither here or there. I want to understand
327 00:31:50.800 ⇒ 00:31:54.959 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: What their end state or the end goal is, because you can work back from that.
328 00:31:55.280 ⇒ 00:32:00.560 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Right? Because, like, dating to BigQuery in real time.
329 00:32:00.790 ⇒ 00:32:06.019 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: I’ve never seen as a thing, right? Like, well, not that I’ve never seen it, right? Like.
330 00:32:06.380 ⇒ 00:32:08.230 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: I’ve never seen it.
331 00:32:08.360 ⇒ 00:32:14.290 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: To the extent where it was a blocker to the rest of the operations they want to do.
332 00:32:14.570 ⇒ 00:32:25.539 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Because, like, most of the time, no one’s ever just, like, querying from BigQuery in real time, or using it downstream as an application somewhere. It’s usually like, here’s the batch job, here’s the Atlantic,
333 00:32:25.540 ⇒ 00:32:34.969 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: analytic report for the month, or here’s the daily job, or here’s the potentially hourly job that shows up on some dashboard in, like, Looker or something like that.
334 00:32:34.980 ⇒ 00:32:35.850 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Right?
335 00:32:36.270 ⇒ 00:32:41.400 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: So, I want to make sure that, like, we’re not over-building a system to hit
336 00:32:41.770 ⇒ 00:32:46.260 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: A goal that is incorrectly understood.
337 00:32:49.640 ⇒ 00:32:50.709 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: That makes sense?
338 00:32:52.220 ⇒ 00:32:55.800 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I just think, like, but I think, kind of like, …
339 00:32:56.580 ⇒ 00:33:15.250 Uttam Kumaran: Similarly, I think they… they got this company, nobody in the company is giving them a straight answer, so we should take a crack at, like, here’s everything we know, here’s everything we heard, here’s what it looks like, this is our best guess, given what we have right now. And so, we want to be the people to actually just give them something that they can give feedback on, you know?
340 00:33:15.780 ⇒ 00:33:16.360 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Cool.
341 00:33:16.930 ⇒ 00:33:17.470 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Yeah, and I….
342 00:33:17.470 ⇒ 00:33:18.379 Uttam Kumaran: So I think….
343 00:33:18.380 ⇒ 00:33:18.960 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: I thought….
344 00:33:19.530 ⇒ 00:33:19.850 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, go.
345 00:33:19.850 ⇒ 00:33:20.780 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Keep going, keep going.
346 00:33:22.360 ⇒ 00:33:26.680 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: I was saying, I think the way that we’re thinking about it there is potentially right then, right? Which is, like.
347 00:33:26.680 ⇒ 00:33:27.090 Uttam Kumaran: Okay.
348 00:33:27.090 ⇒ 00:33:37.729 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: well, you want us to stream this, we potentially think you could do it like this in hourly jobs, here’s our recommendation and why, and then they can come back and say.
349 00:33:37.770 ⇒ 00:33:51.820 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Does it solve this, this, and that? And then we can work through that process. So I guess, in that vein, yeah, I think we should come up with a recommendation that makes the most sense based on our context, because that’s what they’re coming for us from, and then have them
350 00:33:53.440 ⇒ 00:34:00.350 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: agree or not disagree. And then that opens us up to the rest of the conversation.
351 00:34:02.920 ⇒ 00:34:04.089 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I agree.
352 00:34:04.550 ⇒ 00:34:05.200 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Don’t quit.
353 00:34:08.760 ⇒ 00:34:10.960 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Cool, cool, cool. So you want this next…
354 00:34:11.480 ⇒ 00:34:17.620 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Thing that we have to be the propo… like, you want to present the proposal based on all the information that we have.
355 00:34:19.380 ⇒ 00:34:20.220 Awaish Kumar: Oh, yep.
356 00:34:20.780 ⇒ 00:34:24.020 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Cool, okay, cool, sweet. I think we can get this done. ….
357 00:34:24.360 ⇒ 00:34:26.590 Awaish Kumar: I don’t think we can get that?
358 00:34:28.350 ⇒ 00:34:31.920 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Well, yeah, I was gonna ask some more questions. Right now…
359 00:34:32.360 ⇒ 00:34:35.480 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: who generates the proposals? I’m talking about the country.
360 00:34:38.130 ⇒ 00:34:45.690 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: because I’m assuming the proposal is gonna be… it’s not gonna, like, be the whole, documentation, …
361 00:34:45.840 ⇒ 00:34:57.609 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: around… like, it’s not gonna give them the entire documentation, the architecture, all of that stuff. It’s just like, here’s what we’re gonna do, here’s the time, here’s all of that sort of stuff. Again, I don’t know what you guys’ proposals look like, so if you, again, send me that.
362 00:34:57.810 ⇒ 00:35:03.149 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Send me, like, one of the jobs that you did, and how much hours it kind of took, and that sort of stuff.
363 00:35:03.500 ⇒ 00:35:08.009 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Like, I would just want to see what artifacts we’re trying to generate in total.
364 00:35:08.280 ⇒ 00:35:18.170 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: And then, from an architectural standpoint, I could map to that and be like, okay, cool, if you want something that looks similar to this, but from an engineering back-end architecture perspective, here’s what it would look like.
365 00:35:22.620 ⇒ 00:35:28.709 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: And, like, if you get that data over to me today, I can get an answer to you…
366 00:35:28.860 ⇒ 00:35:30.370 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Probably gonna take me…
367 00:35:32.870 ⇒ 00:35:40.370 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: two, maybe three hours to look it all over. Again, I don’t know, because I haven’t seen any of… I don’t… I don’t know what the different rules look like.
368 00:35:40.540 ⇒ 00:35:45.870 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Like, 2-3 hours to synthesize it and come up with, like, my high-level thoughts.
369 00:35:46.280 ⇒ 00:35:51.709 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, the proposal can just be, like, a Notion doc, but it just has to be, like, super clear for them, like.
370 00:35:51.990 ⇒ 00:36:02.210 Uttam Kumaran: hey, the goal is for us to come in here, I make sure that this… all this architecture is scalable, and enable this Google Analytics thing. Roughly, we need…
371 00:36:02.790 ⇒ 00:36:06.660 Uttam Kumaran: 5 hours a week, or 10 hours a week, to do that.
372 00:36:06.770 ⇒ 00:36:08.480 Uttam Kumaran: Here’s what that’s gonna cost.
373 00:36:10.110 ⇒ 00:36:15.189 Uttam Kumaran: You know, that’s basically it. But our way of doing that is showing that we’ve mapped everything out, you know?
374 00:36:17.890 ⇒ 00:36:21.490 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Alright, cool. Let me… let me give you, I guess, this little tidbit.
375 00:36:44.770 ⇒ 00:36:49.470 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: I guess… What did I say?
376 00:36:51.610 ⇒ 00:36:58.400 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: So, again, this is why I want to make sure, so I’m understanding exactly what our target is. So, like.
377 00:37:00.520 ⇒ 00:37:08.829 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: We sent an SOW on my firm to a company called Frontible, and the scope of work was…
378 00:37:09.710 ⇒ 00:37:11.460 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: 30 pages.
379 00:37:12.860 ⇒ 00:37:13.860 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Right?
380 00:37:14.230 ⇒ 00:37:15.920 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: So, like, I don’t think.
381 00:37:15.920 ⇒ 00:37:18.219 Uttam Kumaran: This would be, like, a page.
382 00:37:18.220 ⇒ 00:37:18.670 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: It’s like a page.
383 00:37:18.670 ⇒ 00:37:20.299 Uttam Kumaran: too, but I want to show…
384 00:37:20.690 ⇒ 00:37:26.989 Uttam Kumaran: I want to show, like, all the open questions. I kind of want to… we could just take this transcript and sort of bill a lot from that.
385 00:37:27.170 ⇒ 00:37:30.609 Uttam Kumaran: But I want to list the open questions, and I want to say, like, look.
386 00:37:31.780 ⇒ 00:37:41.550 Uttam Kumaran: I want to ask them, like, what is your timeline for this? And for us to… I want to give… basically, I want to give Robert these questions, too. Like, hey, if they want to get this out this year.
387 00:37:41.720 ⇒ 00:37:44.799 Uttam Kumaran: Then they probably need us for at least 20 hours a week.
388 00:37:45.120 ⇒ 00:37:46.880 Uttam Kumaran: Consulting just on this.
389 00:37:47.730 ⇒ 00:37:48.130 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Cool.
390 00:37:48.130 ⇒ 00:37:51.020 Uttam Kumaran: Is that… I just want to kind of get a sense from you on, like.
391 00:37:51.650 ⇒ 00:37:54.489 Uttam Kumaran: I think it would take at least 10 hours a week
392 00:37:55.030 ⇒ 00:38:02.379 Uttam Kumaran: just to dedicate to push this along. Or if you’re like, hey, this is, like, actually really light, they would just need, like, a couple hours a week for me.
393 00:38:03.320 ⇒ 00:38:08.370 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Yeah, so that’s what I’m saying. So, like… From what I’m seeing, I don’t…
394 00:38:09.420 ⇒ 00:38:11.620 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: 20 hours a week for me.
395 00:38:11.890 ⇒ 00:38:19.810 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: I guess… The only thing, if you have the data around it, is… …
396 00:38:20.500 ⇒ 00:38:23.000 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Show me what one of these one-pager proposals looks like.
397 00:38:23.430 ⇒ 00:38:30.670 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Right? From any of your other clients. Show me how much hours you spent per week on the client, and then show me what the artifact is.
398 00:38:31.050 ⇒ 00:38:33.870 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: And then… that’s it. That’s all I really need.
399 00:38:35.390 ⇒ 00:38:36.060 Uttam Kumaran: Okay.
400 00:38:37.060 ⇒ 00:38:37.860 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Easy.
401 00:38:39.760 ⇒ 00:38:40.280 Awaish Kumar: Alright.
402 00:38:40.280 ⇒ 00:38:41.430 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Correct, I didn’t mean to…
403 00:38:43.060 ⇒ 00:38:48.879 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Fidel, because I told you, SOWs are 30 pages. But, like, we’re going up against Goliath companies, right? Like, if you give.
404 00:38:48.880 ⇒ 00:38:57.190 Uttam Kumaran: No, this would just be, like, something they can digest and basically be like, cool, just do what I… like, I want them to basically say, great, you’re approved for 10 hours a week.
405 00:38:57.700 ⇒ 00:38:58.330 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Yeah, golf course.
406 00:38:58.640 ⇒ 00:39:05.390 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: No, and again, I’m saying I agree with you. Our stuff is, like, we have to send 30 pages, and then, like, no one actually reads it.
407 00:39:05.540 ⇒ 00:39:15.099 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: But, like, it’s just formalities, right? It’s like, if you don’t send 30 pages, you’re like, hmm, nothing of me here. If you do, like…
408 00:39:15.400 ⇒ 00:39:24.569 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: they send every page to a different department, no one’s really, like, locked in to what’s going on, and it’s just like, yeah, but it’s like… like, their job is sending paperwork.
409 00:39:25.270 ⇒ 00:39:30.699 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: So, I don’t want to paperwork them to death if that’s not the end goal. Okay, cool. Yeah, we’re aligned.
410 00:39:31.850 ⇒ 00:39:42.989 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Alright, so send me those, those things. Send me how much time you spent per hour on the client, how long it was, the engagement. Send me what the proposal looked like, and then send me what the, like, final artifacts looked like.
411 00:39:43.170 ⇒ 00:39:48.479 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: And I’ll come over and let’s it really quick. I’ll probably say, definitely.
412 00:39:49.130 ⇒ 00:39:50.430 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Definitely…
413 00:39:51.490 ⇒ 00:39:56.590 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: two… two hours. Again, I don’t know how… I don’t know what your artifact looks like, because I’m going to read it.
414 00:39:57.020 ⇒ 00:39:59.930 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: So… Yeah, probably say 1 hour.
415 00:39:59.930 ⇒ 00:40:05.329 Awaish Kumar: equity… It could be different on, like, analytic side. On a backend side.
416 00:40:05.450 ⇒ 00:40:07.700 Awaish Kumar: I’m not sure, like, you can say we need…
417 00:40:08.020 ⇒ 00:40:13.269 Awaish Kumar: I can build an architecture diagram, ERDs, or sequence diagram, or things like that, right?
418 00:40:13.270 ⇒ 00:40:15.530 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: So that’s what I’m saying. So, like, you guys have, you know.
419 00:40:15.530 ⇒ 00:40:21.619 Awaish Kumar: We don’t have, like, we don’t build all these kind of documents for our analytics system.
420 00:40:22.280 ⇒ 00:40:24.640 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: That’s fine, whatever… let me rephrase.
421 00:40:24.820 ⇒ 00:40:28.250 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: You guys are currently working with, Eden.
422 00:40:28.470 ⇒ 00:40:29.280 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Right?
423 00:40:29.930 ⇒ 00:40:33.279 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: There’s some sort of hours, there was some sort of, …
424 00:40:33.390 ⇒ 00:40:42.689 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: scope of work, there’s some sort of proposal document, and you’ve given them artifacts at this point, right? Like, you’ve given them a ETL pipeline document.
425 00:40:42.940 ⇒ 00:40:43.940 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Just give me that.
426 00:40:46.630 ⇒ 00:40:47.240 Awaish Kumar: Okay.
427 00:40:47.930 ⇒ 00:40:49.290 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Yeah, exactly, bingo, yeah.
428 00:40:49.580 ⇒ 00:40:55.199 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: And I’m pretty sure it’s in Notion, so just send me the links for all of those stuff, and then, cool, I can rework it from there. Because again.
429 00:40:55.760 ⇒ 00:41:00.590 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: you guys understand data and ETLs, and, like, putting stuff in Snowflake and all that sort of stuff.
430 00:41:01.020 ⇒ 00:41:10.570 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: It’s… again, I’ve done that work… Utah, we’ve worked on some of that stuff together. It’s a different transformation on the same things. So, like, back-end architecture documents will look the same.
431 00:41:10.710 ⇒ 00:41:13.919 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: It’ll just be, like, different underlying tools.
432 00:41:15.080 ⇒ 00:41:22.289 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: So, like, that’s what I mean. I just want to make sure I match your level of fidelity before I come in there with, like, it’s a 30-page doc, when it’s like, whoa, like…
433 00:41:22.410 ⇒ 00:41:27.299 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Because those also take a very, very long time to create, da-da-da, and if that’s not the assignment.
434 00:41:27.680 ⇒ 00:41:29.720 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Let me… let’s not do that.
435 00:41:30.600 ⇒ 00:41:41.060 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, yeah. I would just say, like, if you… if we can get… if everybody, if the three of us, and more particularly both of you, can just get all your thoughts, I could format the stock and get it shipped.
436 00:41:41.190 ⇒ 00:41:53.350 Uttam Kumaran: But I just don’t have the time right now to just get the… get each of the questions and, like, what to poke. So if you brain dumped there, and you’re like, hey, I put everything I thought about, I can rearrange the dock, no problem.
437 00:41:53.350 ⇒ 00:42:02.439 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Yeah, got you. Yeah, yeah. Again, I… we are now fully aligned, I would say. Send me those things, and I think I know exactly what you mean.
438 00:42:07.080 ⇒ 00:42:11.300 Awaish Kumar: Okay. Okay. Do we have anything to share?
439 00:42:13.520 ⇒ 00:42:13.860 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Believe.
440 00:42:13.860 ⇒ 00:42:15.700 Uttam Kumaran: I think that’s it. That’s it.
441 00:42:15.700 ⇒ 00:42:17.010 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Yeah, they were good.
442 00:42:17.680 ⇒ 00:42:18.680 Awaish Kumar: Okay.
443 00:42:23.810 ⇒ 00:42:27.939 Awaish Kumar: Okay, thank you. I’ll… we’ll see, like, we’re going to share that data.
444 00:42:28.060 ⇒ 00:42:29.869 Awaish Kumar: In the slag.
445 00:42:30.200 ⇒ 00:42:34.070 Awaish Kumar: And, yeah, then you can… Built our dockers.
446 00:42:37.500 ⇒ 00:42:38.310 Awaish Kumar: Okay.
447 00:42:38.310 ⇒ 00:42:38.850 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Cool.
448 00:42:39.770 ⇒ 00:42:40.350 Awaish Kumar: Thank you.
449 00:42:40.350 ⇒ 00:42:40.910 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Easy.
450 00:42:41.870 ⇒ 00:42:43.090 Surfield Thomas, Jr.: Alright, have a good day.
451 00:42:43.290 ⇒ 00:42:43.840 Awaish Kumar: Mark.