Meeting Title: Uttam-Roy <> Neil—Brainforge-Sales Date: 2024-10-04 Meeting participants: Neil Oliver, Uttam Kumaran
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1 00:00:53.470 ⇒ 00:00:54.140 Roy Christian Piñon: yeah.
2 00:00:56.090 ⇒ 00:00:56.950 Roy Christian Piñon: Hmm.
3 00:04:08.730 ⇒ 00:04:09.890 Neil Oliver: Hey! Hey!
4 00:04:11.274 ⇒ 00:04:12.730 Roy Christian Piñon: You there. Oh.
5 00:04:14.130 ⇒ 00:04:19.049 Roy Christian Piñon: thanks, I appreciate it, Neil. Tom said he wouldn’t be able to come in.
6 00:04:19.279 ⇒ 00:04:22.934 Roy Christian Piñon: but I think I’m kinda kinda fell into sales.
7 00:04:27.020 ⇒ 00:04:40.299 Roy Christian Piñon: Well, you did give you kind of a good remark, since you kind of rock the whole company, you actually established kind of the whole motion, and made it to 300, to 500.
8 00:04:40.760 ⇒ 00:04:43.151 Neil Oliver: It was. Yeah, it was
9 00:04:43.990 ⇒ 00:04:53.202 Neil Oliver: God, it feels like a an age ago now, but it was actually only like a year ago. But yeah, thrown in at the deep end a little bit, but had
10 00:04:54.990 ⇒ 00:04:57.100 Neil Oliver: had a
11 00:04:57.170 ⇒ 00:04:58.960 Neil Oliver: good opening into like
12 00:04:59.400 ⇒ 00:05:26.680 Neil Oliver: the different ways that you can approach sales. And it’s it’s an interesting thing to see how different people approach it. What can work, what works at different stages, what works for different people what works for different companies. it really is like an art to getting it. right. But it was amazing to to see the extremes of things, and and try and find a balance in the middle of it.
13 00:05:27.560 ⇒ 00:05:33.600 Roy Christian Piñon: Okay. So I guess, yeah, I do have to introduce myself. I’m Roy Christian. Call me Roy.
14 00:05:33.750 ⇒ 00:05:40.169 Roy Christian Piñon: And the biggest question, for I think this would really be about kind of building the list.
15 00:05:40.510 ⇒ 00:05:44.469 Roy Christian Piñon: So since you were starting, I I think you had kind of
16 00:05:44.710 ⇒ 00:05:50.379 Roy Christian Piñon: the same same stage we were at. So we’re, you know, mostly referrals.
17 00:05:50.430 ⇒ 00:05:56.129 Roy Christian Piñon: and we’re going to do outbound as far as a Tom’s direction would be.
18 00:05:56.460 ⇒ 00:06:04.280 Roy Christian Piñon: So how did you go about targeting and kind of building the high priority list? Was it more of like
19 00:06:05.420 ⇒ 00:06:09.030 Roy Christian Piñon: you targeted some industries and then kind of
20 00:06:09.698 ⇒ 00:06:19.920 Roy Christian Piñon: inclined yourself? Or did you build that proclivity like, Hey, this market seems to need it a bit more, because, you know data, everybody can use it.
21 00:06:20.400 ⇒ 00:06:21.390 Roy Christian Piñon: And
22 00:06:21.760 ⇒ 00:06:24.649 Roy Christian Piñon: so I guess that would be a question.
23 00:06:24.650 ⇒ 00:06:25.810 Neil Oliver: So
24 00:06:25.920 ⇒ 00:06:31.240 Neil Oliver: the co-founders to the, to the company. Really approach things.
25 00:06:31.646 ⇒ 00:06:44.840 Neil Oliver: I want to say in like the classic way. So they were massively about networking and going out and and meeting people, but they differed to me in that. They went to like data events.
26 00:06:44.950 ⇒ 00:06:51.080 Neil Oliver: So that was like it kind of makes sense. It’s where, like all of these people go. So they were keen to go to like
27 00:06:51.431 ⇒ 00:07:04.060 Neil Oliver: The Snowflake Conference and the 5 Tran conference and those types of places, and they were brilliant at being very personable and networking. And that’s how they grew things, and they managed to do it very successfully.
28 00:07:05.780 ⇒ 00:07:07.039 Neil Oliver: for me.
29 00:07:07.140 ⇒ 00:07:22.490 Neil Oliver: The problem that I saw in that was, there’s as much as everyone needs data. There’s also an abundance of people there to help, and there are many other consultancies that were bigger than us that could either do it faster, cheaper, whatever
30 00:07:23.610 ⇒ 00:07:24.950 Neil Oliver: and
31 00:07:25.130 ⇒ 00:07:33.330 Neil Oliver: just actually, through some inbound leads. It really clicked that there are people that need
32 00:07:34.130 ⇒ 00:07:37.829 Neil Oliver: need data where the industry hasn’t worked that out.
33 00:07:37.870 ⇒ 00:07:39.010 Neil Oliver: So
34 00:07:40.210 ⇒ 00:07:51.729 Neil Oliver: healthcare, for instance, it’s pretty pretty far behind like they’re not really like. If you want to look at the systems they’re using. And and this is very true of of where I am at the moment with Sigma.
35 00:07:52.089 ⇒ 00:07:56.560 Neil Oliver: A lot of them are stuck on bi systems that are 20 years old.
36 00:07:56.570 ⇒ 00:08:03.230 Neil Oliver: They don’t even have a cloud solution. So I was looking for opportunities to go. How do I get in front of them?
37 00:08:03.580 ⇒ 00:08:19.649 Neil Oliver: And the way that I found it was strongest was, if we had our 1st use case. So the the places that I would do outbound was where I had a use case, because then I could go and go, hey, we’ve done. XY, and Z for this company.
38 00:08:20.450 ⇒ 00:08:22.200 Neil Oliver: can we get on phone and talk?
39 00:08:23.350 ⇒ 00:08:26.860 Neil Oliver: And as I’m sure you know, the the hardest bit
40 00:08:26.890 ⇒ 00:08:28.949 Neil Oliver: is getting someone on the phone to talk.
41 00:08:29.660 ⇒ 00:08:34.689 Neil Oliver: get them on the phone to talk. I I truly think that is
42 00:08:35.039 ⇒ 00:08:36.989 Neil Oliver: 90% of the battle.
43 00:08:37.010 ⇒ 00:08:49.790 Neil Oliver: Like, if you if you can truly get somebody to be interested in what you’ve got to say. That’s yeah. That’s a really huge thing. And then I would look at Referrals.
44 00:08:50.480 ⇒ 00:08:53.390 Neil Oliver: The best referrals for me were the ones that
45 00:08:53.410 ⇒ 00:09:03.840 Neil Oliver: bought in a new industry, so that again, I could build a use case, and then I could outbound, based on that use case. But I found it really hard to just blind
46 00:09:03.980 ⇒ 00:09:05.690 Neil Oliver: reach out to people
47 00:09:06.093 ⇒ 00:09:11.259 Neil Oliver: without being able to really anchor that around something. So those use cases are important to me.
48 00:09:13.190 ⇒ 00:09:14.010 Roy Christian Piñon: Okay.
49 00:09:14.210 ⇒ 00:09:24.110 Roy Christian Piñon: that’s that’s kind of so I I guess there’s some good traction with us on that, because we we do have like different areas and different clients that are
50 00:09:24.543 ⇒ 00:09:30.359 Roy Christian Piñon: not that like similar. So I guess there is kind of the lookalike we can build on that.
51 00:09:30.590 ⇒ 00:09:33.350 Roy Christian Piñon: And as far as sales process.
52 00:09:34.120 ⇒ 00:09:40.220 Roy Christian Piñon: Did you find a specific channel? Because phone would be ideal? Right? Did you have like
53 00:09:40.600 ⇒ 00:09:42.270 Roy Christian Piñon: for particular.
54 00:09:42.610 ⇒ 00:09:49.490 Roy Christian Piñon: for a particular channel? Was there like a specific like email, Linkedin, that kind of worked for you, or
55 00:09:49.720 ⇒ 00:09:51.710 Roy Christian Piñon: it’s really random, depending on the person.
56 00:09:51.710 ⇒ 00:09:54.454 Neil Oliver: Guy that was very
57 00:09:55.370 ⇒ 00:09:57.640 Neil Oliver: into the processes.
58 00:09:58.080 ⇒ 00:10:08.650 Neil Oliver: He had come from traditional sales. And I will. I will tell you this. So he set up all of the I’m trying to think of what the applications were.
59 00:10:08.850 ⇒ 00:10:16.900 Neil Oliver: but he had Hubspot tracking, and like he did all of the email, marketing campaigns and all of that. And he came up short on all of that.
60 00:10:18.590 ⇒ 00:10:27.209 Neil Oliver: I told it like a hundred percent. Sure, like we, we had a couple of small conversations. But really that mass outreach
61 00:10:27.270 ⇒ 00:10:32.580 Neil Oliver: wasn’t really the way. If at least for us, it was very much.
62 00:10:33.470 ⇒ 00:10:46.210 Neil Oliver: Let’s let’s specifically target a smaller amount of people be very personable. Do a little bit of research go out, have the use case there that you can talk about, and so that it doesn’t feel like.
63 00:10:46.490 ⇒ 00:10:55.631 Neil Oliver: Oh, it’s another person randomly reaching out to me. It is a. This company has experience in doing this, and and they think that they can help
64 00:10:56.250 ⇒ 00:11:02.509 Neil Oliver: again. People see that in different ways. Most like the company that I’m at now, Sigma, we’ve got a
65 00:11:03.010 ⇒ 00:11:17.340 Neil Oliver: 200 person sales team upstairs with Bdrs that are on the phone call calling all the time. And that’s how we do it. And we’re, you know, a multi 1 million dollar business, and that’s great. So it I think that part comes down to
66 00:11:18.865 ⇒ 00:11:29.264 Neil Oliver: who you guys are and and how you are on sales calls as well. So like when you get on the phone, what is your approach gonna be? And what’s your vibe gonna be?
67 00:11:30.862 ⇒ 00:11:32.729 Neil Oliver: Because we really.
68 00:11:34.310 ⇒ 00:11:36.760 Neil Oliver: I truly believe.
69 00:11:37.170 ⇒ 00:11:46.979 Neil Oliver: In fact, let me let me try and think of some some stats for us. It was a lot about how good we were and how much we cared, and it was a genuine like
70 00:11:47.110 ⇒ 00:11:58.540 Neil Oliver: the customers knew we cared, and they stayed for a hell of a long time. I think it was something like 85% of all of our clients extended their contract beyond the original deadline.
71 00:11:58.720 ⇒ 00:12:01.539 Neil Oliver: because it was like, we like working with you.
72 00:12:01.912 ⇒ 00:12:13.739 Neil Oliver: And I tell you what it is. Hell of a lot easier to keep a keep a client than it is to go and find the new one. And so that was that was really really great for us, but a lot of that was
73 00:12:14.490 ⇒ 00:12:17.910 Neil Oliver: our approach on sales. Course, you know, it was
74 00:12:18.270 ⇒ 00:12:27.549 Neil Oliver: no one, say giving free advice, but like we got on a call, and it was really about like understanding their problem and having a chat with somebody more than it being anything to do with a sales pitch.
75 00:12:27.650 ⇒ 00:12:30.669 Neil Oliver: It was just come and come and talk about this. Where? Where are you at
76 00:12:31.139 ⇒ 00:12:36.400 Neil Oliver: and taking that pressure off? People really helped for us, because I think they get sold to
77 00:12:36.640 ⇒ 00:12:37.780 Neil Oliver: a lot.
78 00:12:38.020 ⇒ 00:12:42.300 Neil Oliver: But these people are getting these phone calls, these cold emails from companies.
79 00:12:42.370 ⇒ 00:12:44.020 Neil Oliver: All the goddamn time.
80 00:12:44.890 ⇒ 00:12:49.170 Roy Christian Piñon: Okay. So it’s really the volume, the fatigue they experience.
81 00:12:49.210 ⇒ 00:12:56.790 Roy Christian Piñon: As far as my experience with the Tom, I’ve seen some of his sales calls. They’re actually pretty good that
82 00:12:56.890 ⇒ 00:13:04.639 Roy Christian Piñon: he was almost talking technology already when he hops on those calls. So I think there’s that good bit.
83 00:13:05.180 ⇒ 00:13:07.509 Roy Christian Piñon: And so I guess.
84 00:13:07.890 ⇒ 00:13:14.349 Neil Oliver: I was. Gonna say, if you think about from getting on so if you are an It manager at one of these companies.
85 00:13:14.420 ⇒ 00:13:20.399 Neil Oliver: and you’ve got a random person that asked for your time, and you’ve given them the time like.
86 00:13:20.580 ⇒ 00:13:24.329 Neil Oliver: what do you? What do you want as the it manager out of it.
87 00:13:24.550 ⇒ 00:13:25.940 Neil Oliver: If you’re
88 00:13:26.040 ⇒ 00:13:29.780 Neil Oliver: like. Everybody loves to talk and be heard. So
89 00:13:30.070 ⇒ 00:13:37.750 Neil Oliver: listening is genuinely you. You can get through an entire call, and just as long as you get them talking for the whole call.
90 00:13:37.910 ⇒ 00:13:51.409 Neil Oliver: that we they might be happy to get on another call with you. But the other bit that you want to try and like squeeze in there without it feeling salesy is, yeah, we also know our shit. So that’s where, like, uten does a great job at just being like.
91 00:13:51.470 ⇒ 00:13:55.290 Neil Oliver: Oh, yeah. And if I drop these things into this conversation.
92 00:13:55.870 ⇒ 00:14:06.030 Neil Oliver: you know, we know what we’re talking about. You’ve seen that like, if I can mention this solid use case, we’re not making it up. I can say, you know, we have done this for X Company.
93 00:14:06.840 ⇒ 00:14:09.580 Neil Oliver: and you’re just. You’re just trying to start that off.
94 00:14:10.990 ⇒ 00:14:14.649 Roy Christian Piñon: Okay, so we should really bank on, I guess.
95 00:14:15.370 ⇒ 00:14:19.669 Roy Christian Piñon: But just really, in relation to your advice, we could really bank on the
96 00:14:20.170 ⇒ 00:14:23.920 Roy Christian Piñon: on the use cases we currently have, because it would really
97 00:14:24.150 ⇒ 00:14:26.639 Roy Christian Piñon: ease in. I don’t.
98 00:14:26.640 ⇒ 00:14:27.919 Neil Oliver: Will say, the
99 00:14:31.540 ⇒ 00:14:37.202 Neil Oliver: the okay, tied into that. And and this is where there is a big line.
100 00:14:38.310 ⇒ 00:14:40.189 Neil Oliver: nobody’s fact checking.
101 00:14:41.650 ⇒ 00:15:03.622 Neil Oliver: So that’s not telling you to lie in any way. You’ll get caught out. You’ve never, if you’ve never done it. But also the the selection of information you choose to present is is like really important. So if you’re working for one of the big buzzwords like, I hate buzz words. But if I’m talking to a company. And I’m like, Oh, yeah, we have worked
102 00:15:03.950 ⇒ 00:15:20.439 Neil Oliver: in the healthcare industry with with xy client like. I know that I use that line a thousand times, and that client was a 1 person healthcare place, but it was still healthcare, so I could say, we have healthcare clients.
103 00:15:21.460 ⇒ 00:15:26.489 Neil Oliver: and and it’s about that kind of selection, and nobody ever really pulled us up on that.
104 00:15:26.760 ⇒ 00:15:29.919 Neil Oliver: The other thing that my co-founders
105 00:15:30.620 ⇒ 00:15:31.950 Neil Oliver: were
106 00:15:32.500 ⇒ 00:15:34.330 Neil Oliver: really good at
107 00:15:36.010 ⇒ 00:15:42.420 Neil Oliver: was making sure that you never stand in front of yourself like you’re never the blocker to
108 00:15:42.875 ⇒ 00:15:48.409 Neil Oliver: this conversation. So I remember one of us like we were only a small company we were.
109 00:15:48.550 ⇒ 00:15:51.570 Neil Oliver: I think, at the time there were 12 of us
110 00:15:51.710 ⇒ 00:15:55.500 Neil Oliver: on like across all of our projects. And
111 00:15:56.011 ⇒ 00:16:08.120 Neil Oliver: we’re on this sales call. And they’re like, yeah, so what would it look like if we wanted to do this really fast? And the co-founder was on the call, and she was like, Oh, we could staff this with 15 people.
112 00:16:08.437 ⇒ 00:16:15.380 Neil Oliver: and XY and Z. And I was like panicking, and I got off the call, and she was like, it’s not a problem until it’s a problem.
113 00:16:15.640 ⇒ 00:16:17.020 Neil Oliver: It’s never like
114 00:16:17.080 ⇒ 00:16:21.729 Neil Oliver: you don’t. You don’t want to say in that sales call. No, we can’t do that.
115 00:16:21.770 ⇒ 00:16:30.319 Neil Oliver: If somebody’s offering you a bigger, a bigger problem. It was just like, you don’t know if that sales call is going to go anywhere. But you don’t want to stop that flow.
116 00:16:30.340 ⇒ 00:16:37.520 Neil Oliver: That is a that is a different problem that you want to solve. Problem that you’re trying to solve in a sales call is is closing that deal.
117 00:16:40.660 ⇒ 00:16:42.549 Roy Christian Piñon: That that’s pretty fresh.
118 00:16:42.900 ⇒ 00:16:46.760 Neil Oliver: It’s like, honestly like it took. That is the one that
119 00:16:47.070 ⇒ 00:17:10.900 Neil Oliver: it really took me a while, because I come out like I was running the company, and I was like, how the hell am I gonna hire? I think I needed to hire new people because she was guaranteeing like full time on the thing, and I’m like how the hell! And she said, they’ve not signed yet. They’ve not like, and if they do sign we’re gonna charge them enough money that we can hire like new people or whatever we need to. That’s not. That is not the problem for the sales call
120 00:17:11.536 ⇒ 00:17:15.350 Neil Oliver: and they would just do it so well
121 00:17:15.440 ⇒ 00:17:17.460 Neil Oliver: that you realize
122 00:17:17.470 ⇒ 00:17:20.751 Neil Oliver: you you just don’t want to stop that. They go.
123 00:17:21.319 ⇒ 00:17:26.136 Neil Oliver: oh, yeah. And and we also have this this part where we really need
124 00:17:27.160 ⇒ 00:17:35.789 Neil Oliver: I don’t know a designer to. We really want our dashboards to look amazing, and we love like a database designer. And you’re like, great. Yeah, we’ve we’ve got that.
125 00:17:37.490 ⇒ 00:17:38.780 Roy Christian Piñon: But you don’t have it.
126 00:17:39.320 ⇒ 00:17:46.279 Neil Oliver: No, we might not, and sometimes we would say, we have a a network of contractors.
127 00:17:46.585 ⇒ 00:17:46.890 Roy Christian Piñon: Wait.
128 00:17:46.900 ⇒ 00:17:59.629 Neil Oliver: We, which which was genuine. But the the point of it is, would you not kick yourself if that was the end of your conversation, if you’re like. Oh, we we don’t. We don’t have that, or we can’t support that.
129 00:18:00.580 ⇒ 00:18:03.509 Neil Oliver: You’ve you’ve just. You’ve stopped something
130 00:18:04.100 ⇒ 00:18:07.360 Neil Oliver: that was that was making progress forward.
131 00:18:09.760 ⇒ 00:18:19.250 Roy Christian Piñon: Okay, I I do have kind of a follow up into that, because this would put you somehow in a compromising position. Or is it
132 00:18:19.990 ⇒ 00:18:27.440 Roy Christian Piñon: kind of a different problem, I’m thinking, because you would be onboarding a client wherein you might not be able to fully deliver?
133 00:18:28.040 ⇒ 00:18:36.659 Roy Christian Piñon: Or am I thinking, I mean is that kind of a really different mindset, because that co-founder was really founded, or her grounded rather.
134 00:18:36.660 ⇒ 00:18:41.799 Neil Oliver: I tell you what they they grew it as much as I had issues with them at times.
135 00:18:42.990 ⇒ 00:18:54.880 Neil Oliver: They started, 2 of them, and in 18 months had, like over 15 staff and a couple of 1 million dollars in revenue a year. And it was like, and and they did it, based on
136 00:18:54.920 ⇒ 00:19:01.590 Neil Oliver: kind of hopes and dreams and just getting on calls and just being like, yeah, cool, we can do that and then going and finding the people that can do that.
137 00:19:01.610 ⇒ 00:19:04.200 Neil Oliver: and part of
138 00:19:04.310 ⇒ 00:19:07.869 Neil Oliver: a part of one of the other like core things that they did.
139 00:19:08.745 ⇒ 00:19:14.529 Neil Oliver: Which I do think is very important on calls is this air of
140 00:19:14.700 ⇒ 00:19:16.730 Neil Oliver: making sure that you’re not desperate.
141 00:19:17.200 ⇒ 00:19:19.700 Neil Oliver: and they would go the opposite way of
142 00:19:21.001 ⇒ 00:19:24.058 Neil Oliver: making it very clear that
143 00:19:24.920 ⇒ 00:19:31.490 Neil Oliver: we? We’re not in a rush for that business. So even if we had the availability to start right away.
144 00:19:31.920 ⇒ 00:19:46.899 Neil Oliver: the the line on every single one of our sales calls was we need at least a a 2 to 3 week lead time on anything so that we can free up available resources like that was set on every call.
145 00:19:47.040 ⇒ 00:19:51.279 Neil Oliver: because one that gives the that gives the impression that you’re very busy
146 00:19:51.470 ⇒ 00:20:09.440 Neil Oliver: and it and it helps towards that. But also, if you do need to get more people, you now have that lead time. What’s the worst? That’s gonna happen? Somebody says, yes, and you’re like like we need it sooner than that. And you’re like, Oh, I guess we’ll do you a favor, or now you’ve got something for negotiation for pricing.
147 00:20:09.540 ⇒ 00:20:20.149 Neil Oliver: because now you can go. Oh, you need to break our 2 lead lead time. We’re gonna have to info, whatever we’re going to have to. We would change our pricing structure.
148 00:20:20.430 ⇒ 00:20:28.999 Neil Oliver: We’re gonna need 75% upfront now, instead of the 50%, whatever it is. You now have a good leverage on that conversation.
149 00:20:29.430 ⇒ 00:20:30.500 Roy Christian Piñon: Wow!
150 00:20:31.130 ⇒ 00:20:36.050 Roy Christian Piñon: I I don’t have that type of degree in negotiation, but.
151 00:20:36.050 ⇒ 00:20:36.520 Neil Oliver: I, I.
152 00:20:36.520 ⇒ 00:20:37.400 Roy Christian Piñon: Pretty, awesome.
153 00:20:38.240 ⇒ 00:20:42.640 Neil Oliver: Best absolute, best thing that you can do for negotiation.
154 00:20:43.260 ⇒ 00:20:44.399 Neil Oliver: Or just
155 00:20:44.450 ⇒ 00:20:48.004 Neil Oliver: sales in general. There is someone called Chris Voss.
156 00:20:48.400 ⇒ 00:20:50.450 Roy Christian Piñon: Heard about the FBI guy.
157 00:20:50.450 ⇒ 00:20:55.989 Neil Oliver: Yeah, just go and go and watch some stuff. Some of that I like. I
158 00:20:56.220 ⇒ 00:20:59.519 Neil Oliver: I find it very hard to not be genuine.
159 00:21:00.047 ⇒ 00:21:14.000 Neil Oliver: Like. I don’t like the the feeling that I’m like lying on a call. I’m okay with, like bending the truth and being selective. But there are some bits in what he says that are just concrete.
160 00:21:14.480 ⇒ 00:21:21.459 Neil Oliver: It’s nothing to do with lying, and the way that that changes a conversation is
161 00:21:21.520 ⇒ 00:21:25.070 Neil Oliver: insane. My my favorite is
162 00:21:27.490 ⇒ 00:21:31.549 Neil Oliver: one of his big things is about. Yes, being a commitment.
163 00:21:32.000 ⇒ 00:21:38.680 Neil Oliver: And people are scared of commitment, basically. So you can ask the same question reversed.
164 00:21:38.800 ⇒ 00:21:39.870 Neil Oliver: So
165 00:21:44.010 ⇒ 00:21:53.700 Neil Oliver: What would be an example? I’ve I’ll give you an example of not with not with real numbers. But I’ll give you an example of how I use this getting this job.
166 00:21:53.910 ⇒ 00:22:04.330 Neil Oliver: And he uses this example. If you imagine being in a job. And they’re like, you know, what’s your salary, and you say I I would like
167 00:22:04.950 ⇒ 00:22:07.279 Neil Oliver: a hundred $100,000
168 00:22:07.360 ⇒ 00:22:20.400 Neil Oliver: now the next part. So the conversation going back, that person to progress that conversation. So you’re trying to do is get the conversation to keep going. They have to effectively acknowledge and agree
169 00:22:20.650 ⇒ 00:22:21.850 Neil Oliver: to
170 00:22:21.980 ⇒ 00:22:30.989 Neil Oliver: a hundred 1,000 in some way they’ve got like it. You’ve now put up a wall, but if you flip that and go, would it be crazy if I wanted a hundred 1,000?
171 00:22:31.200 ⇒ 00:22:32.879 Neil Oliver: No, it’s not crazy at all
172 00:22:32.980 ⇒ 00:22:45.169 Neil Oliver: fine. We’re now. We’re now past that. We can move on, and they’ve actually just acknowledged that they don’t mind 100,000. They don’t feel like it was an acknowledgement, and that flipping, flipping something on its head.
173 00:22:46.230 ⇒ 00:22:49.190 Neil Oliver: Would it be nuts if we close this today? No.
174 00:22:50.760 ⇒ 00:22:56.019 Roy Christian Piñon: I I do have a bit of lost lines. So but my opener would be like.
175 00:22:56.340 ⇒ 00:23:06.819 Roy Christian Piñon: You’re you’re probably gonna hate me for this cold call, but it’s up to you if you want to take it. And my closing was, do you think it would be a crazy, terrible idea to take a 5 to 10 min. Call.
176 00:23:07.090 ⇒ 00:23:12.659 Neil Oliver: Ex exactly that. Yeah, would you? Would you be? Would you be against against taking a call?
177 00:23:14.370 ⇒ 00:23:15.180 Neil Oliver: yeah.
178 00:23:15.620 ⇒ 00:23:16.200 Neil Oliver: But.
179 00:23:16.200 ⇒ 00:23:22.799 Roy Christian Piñon: It’s a certain degree. Once I’ve used it multiple times to the same person, they might catch on a bit.
180 00:23:22.800 ⇒ 00:23:36.609 Neil Oliver: That’s exactly that it really does have to be again. I can’t believe I’m like literally spreading these out. It’s another Chris Voss thing. Low stakes practice for high stakes situations. So you practice at the coffee shop.
181 00:23:37.300 ⇒ 00:23:59.150 Neil Oliver: That’s where you practice. When you’re going to get coffee when you’re talking to friends. You do the like repeating the last couple of words to get somebody to explain more. That’s where you start to get very natural at it when you’re on these other calls, and it doesn’t feel like you’re trying to twist someone, because as soon as you do, then it’s worked against you. As soon as somebody feels like you are fake.
182 00:24:00.180 ⇒ 00:24:02.839 Neil Oliver: It’s it’s a different thing. You you
183 00:24:04.160 ⇒ 00:24:06.520 Neil Oliver: like. Most
184 00:24:06.910 ⇒ 00:24:11.230 Neil Oliver: it. Most people, I think, are trying to think about
185 00:24:11.260 ⇒ 00:24:26.819 Neil Oliver: you think about it. I don’t know your company, so if I’m it, person you’re talking to, you’re trying to pitch working with you. The only thing that I can really visualize is, do I want to work with you? If you’re the only person on the call, it’s do I want to work with you.
186 00:24:27.050 ⇒ 00:24:38.530 Neil Oliver: even though the like, you know, in the back of your head. It’s not working with you, but you’re the impression of the company. So if you’re personable, if it feels like you care if it feels like you’re knowledgeable.
187 00:24:38.600 ⇒ 00:24:42.369 Neil Oliver: That’s going to translate to how they think about the company.
188 00:24:43.320 ⇒ 00:24:46.320 Roy Christian Piñon: So the the 1st impression would actually last.
189 00:24:46.630 ⇒ 00:24:47.839 Roy Christian Piñon: That would create.
190 00:24:47.950 ⇒ 00:24:49.000 Roy Christian Piñon: Yeah.
191 00:24:49.000 ⇒ 00:24:49.330 Neil Oliver: Just.
192 00:24:49.330 ⇒ 00:24:50.050 Roy Christian Piñon: Yeah, how?
193 00:24:50.050 ⇒ 00:24:51.340 Neil Oliver: Say how you are.
194 00:24:51.960 ⇒ 00:24:55.310 Neil Oliver: The the more genuine I’ve been on calls
195 00:24:55.510 ⇒ 00:24:57.439 Neil Oliver: the better they have gone
196 00:24:59.200 ⇒ 00:25:01.050 Neil Oliver: and like I said, I’ve had.
197 00:25:01.710 ⇒ 00:25:21.500 Neil Oliver: I’ve just closed a 6 figure deal here like I’m not in sales. I’m a product manager at Sigma. I just closed the 6 figure deal here from a client that I used to work with a data culture, who enjoyed working with me so much that his impression of me.
198 00:25:22.430 ⇒ 00:25:26.869 Neil Oliver: like not only transferred company, but transferred to a product
199 00:25:27.690 ⇒ 00:25:31.900 Neil Oliver: because of that relationship. And and I think that’s very powerful.
200 00:25:33.040 ⇒ 00:25:35.431 Roy Christian Piñon: It’s almost referral style type of
201 00:25:36.610 ⇒ 00:25:39.320 Neil Oliver: Yeah, they if you
202 00:25:39.470 ⇒ 00:25:45.320 Neil Oliver: I I do believe the referral thing is, is a way forward for sure.
203 00:25:46.070 ⇒ 00:25:51.418 Roy Christian Piñon: Yeah, I do. Wanna digress a bit. We kinda both love boss. I guess
204 00:25:52.690 ⇒ 00:25:53.340 Roy Christian Piñon: so.
205 00:25:54.100 ⇒ 00:26:11.209 Roy Christian Piñon: usually you’d have a lot of competitors. You mentioned that there’d be faster, cheaper options. But I I guess, just from my experience, the biggest obstacle is actually status quo. How did you go about building your USB. Or how did you kind of
206 00:26:11.660 ⇒ 00:26:14.640 Roy Christian Piñon: tackle the status quo objection?
207 00:26:15.160 ⇒ 00:26:16.393 Neil Oliver: What’s your
208 00:26:17.853 ⇒ 00:26:22.109 Neil Oliver: Why, what are the objections to working with you?
209 00:26:22.860 ⇒ 00:26:23.600 Neil Oliver: E.
210 00:26:23.830 ⇒ 00:26:27.029 Roy Christian Piñon: Yeah. So I mean, you know, Bi.
211 00:26:27.480 ⇒ 00:26:46.519 Roy Christian Piñon: either they would have something already in place kind of either. They do it manually. They don’t really want to change. Because I guess with a lot of these systems, it’s more of the implementation. It’s actually hindering them to consider. Somebody might be losing their job.
212 00:26:46.540 ⇒ 00:26:48.500 Roy Christian Piñon: or somebody might be
213 00:26:49.275 ⇒ 00:26:52.999 Roy Christian Piñon: changing. I guess those are just some factors.
214 00:26:53.330 ⇒ 00:26:55.350 Neil Oliver: Okay. So why should they work with you?
215 00:26:55.910 ⇒ 00:27:00.420 Neil Oliver: Cause they get? I mean, they are. They are very, very good reservations.
216 00:27:03.460 ⇒ 00:27:07.399 Neil Oliver: So if you, if you just think about it, why, like
217 00:27:07.700 ⇒ 00:27:08.640 Neil Oliver: kids do.
218 00:27:09.270 ⇒ 00:27:14.669 Neil Oliver: you’re not. You’re setting yourself up for failure as much as like, obviously, we want to get in everywhere.
219 00:27:15.080 ⇒ 00:27:17.069 Neil Oliver: You’re also going to be
220 00:27:17.620 ⇒ 00:27:41.530 Neil Oliver: struggling, getting in somewhere. If you can’t really find the reason that you’re there, you will find companies. By the way, I’ve worked from like worked with many particularly enterprise companies. The bigger they are. Sometimes they just hire people, and they don’t really know what they’re doing. They’re also the ones that fizzle out. The ones where you can do great work are the ones that obviously last, and where you get referrals.
221 00:27:42.250 ⇒ 00:27:47.929 Neil Oliver: But that’s not to say that there isn’t great reasons, so my approach to this would be
222 00:27:49.840 ⇒ 00:28:04.060 Neil Oliver: so effectively. If I heard you correctly. You were saying that there may be a they may have internal staff that is able to do this. We come in. Then those staff may like lose their job. If we’re kind of replacing that.
223 00:28:04.340 ⇒ 00:28:19.609 Roy Christian Piñon: That would be part, as far as I imagine. Bi would be involved. Somebody could losing, or they’d have to hire like a really technical person. I I think that’s part of like a solution. Engineer is also part of our like
224 00:28:19.820 ⇒ 00:28:20.710 Roy Christian Piñon: product.
225 00:28:20.980 ⇒ 00:28:23.969 Roy Christian Piñon: Okay, so, Chris, how would you see it?
226 00:28:25.527 ⇒ 00:28:32.289 Neil Oliver: You made the assumption to jump to. If you replace somebody’s job, that person is not useful.
227 00:28:32.830 ⇒ 00:28:38.920 Neil Oliver: So if you, if you turn this back up. Now, if you start the conversation talking about somebody’s priorities.
228 00:28:39.280 ⇒ 00:28:45.800 Neil Oliver: and you’re actually caring about what the company priorities are. What are they trying to achieve. Where do they want to be in a year’s time?
229 00:28:45.910 ⇒ 00:29:00.529 Neil Oliver: And how would your solution help them get there? Oh, wait! You’re going to make all of their processes a load faster and free up engineering like like staff times, they’re able to focus on more important things within the company.
230 00:29:00.810 ⇒ 00:29:02.299 Neil Oliver: Now, you’re an asset.
231 00:29:02.360 ⇒ 00:29:14.749 Neil Oliver: Yeah, because that’s what you’re trying to do. You’re trying to provide value to them. So if you can get them talking about their priorities, you should be able to tie in how you feed into their priorities.
232 00:29:14.830 ⇒ 00:29:27.830 Neil Oliver: And a lot of that can and can really be around that we’re going to give you time back. Most priorities are going to tie something to do with time, time, and resources. You’re going to give them time and resources back.
233 00:29:29.290 ⇒ 00:29:29.790 Roy Christian Piñon: Okay.
234 00:29:29.790 ⇒ 00:29:33.337 Neil Oliver: That was, that was always the big one, the big one for me.
235 00:29:36.120 ⇒ 00:29:40.630 Neil Oliver: Because I wanted to sell it in 2 ways. So if I think about something like
236 00:29:40.720 ⇒ 00:29:50.710 Neil Oliver: just the infrastructure that we put in, so we would put in like Fivetran snowflake. Dbt, that type of thing. And actually, Sigma, quite often, because I loved it as a bi tool.
237 00:29:50.880 ⇒ 00:29:56.198 Neil Oliver: And the way that I would sell it is
238 00:29:57.120 ⇒ 00:30:14.269 Neil Oliver: I wanted to sell it that they didn’t need us forever. That’s always a concern with people, with any kind of consultancy. So the things that we’re putting in are very, very easy to use. The reason that you want us to put them in is because you 100, you and your staff a hundred percent can do this yourself.
239 00:30:14.270 ⇒ 00:30:28.440 Neil Oliver: not going to hide that at all. However, the time it’s going to take you to ramp up on those things and the learnings that you’re going to go through of setting this up in the right way. That works the best for you is time that you just don’t want to spend.
240 00:30:28.630 ⇒ 00:30:38.819 Neil Oliver: You’re going to spend 6, 6 months to 12 months working out how best to set this up, and how best to get it to work for you.
241 00:30:38.850 ⇒ 00:30:47.499 Neil Oliver: whereas we can do it in 3 months and leave you with a system that is ready for you to grasp. Everybody’s going to be trained, and you get to take it forward from there.
242 00:30:47.850 ⇒ 00:30:57.719 Neil Oliver: So I get to play the same thing from both sides. I get to play it from we’re leaving you. We’re setting you up for success, but also for you to get to that success
243 00:30:58.640 ⇒ 00:31:01.250 Neil Oliver: like that’s that’s gonna take you too long.
244 00:31:02.230 ⇒ 00:31:05.200 Roy Christian Piñon: It’s not gonna be worth it to do it yourself.
245 00:31:05.850 ⇒ 00:31:19.320 Neil Oliver: The classic like plumber. Analogy of like you don’t pay a plumber for like tightening the pipe like you pay for knowing which pipe to tighten. It’s that kind of like
246 00:31:20.240 ⇒ 00:31:22.200 Neil Oliver: the skills that you’re bringing
247 00:31:22.210 ⇒ 00:31:39.150 Neil Oliver: sometimes a very technical ones, and that’s fine, and you can play that up. Nobody else can do this like we have very specialist skills. But the other one is just experience. We know this. We’ve done this before. We know the potholes. We’re going to overcome this and guide you through.
248 00:31:40.390 ⇒ 00:31:41.080 Roy Christian Piñon: All right.
249 00:31:41.540 ⇒ 00:31:42.270 Roy Christian Piñon: Okay,
250 00:31:43.010 ⇒ 00:31:44.930 Roy Christian Piñon: great negotiation part
251 00:31:45.671 ⇒ 00:31:49.210 Roy Christian Piñon: so this kind of this next question kind of ties in.
252 00:31:49.430 ⇒ 00:31:59.410 Roy Christian Piñon: I guess it was in the co-founder side. Did you actually adjust a bit on your roadmap like product roadmap based on the clients you’ve acquired.
253 00:32:01.440 ⇒ 00:32:04.585 Neil Oliver: For for us. We were very
254 00:32:07.697 ⇒ 00:32:15.632 Neil Oliver: we were like consultancy, so as far as like the roadmap stuff, it wasn’t as much there I could speak to
255 00:32:16.877 ⇒ 00:32:21.892 Neil Oliver: sigma a little bit because obviously we’re we’re a product company.
256 00:32:23.080 ⇒ 00:32:25.800 Neil Oliver: I would say.
257 00:32:26.020 ⇒ 00:32:27.999 Neil Oliver: I look to. Well.
258 00:32:28.210 ⇒ 00:32:33.489 Neil Oliver: I’ll give you the reality of it as well. The reality is, yeah. You’ve got somebody that’s paying you enough money.
259 00:32:34.410 ⇒ 00:32:35.379 Roy Christian Piñon: You gotta just.
260 00:32:35.380 ⇒ 00:32:47.569 Neil Oliver: You’re gonna be doing that. My, I can actually speak to my my girlfriend is a product designer at a startup. And they’re a reasonable size, but they are a hell of a lot smaller. I think they’re like 50 people.
261 00:32:47.660 ⇒ 00:33:01.090 Neil Oliver: And she was like, I’m so fed up that I’m like designing for one customer. And I was like, yeah, and she was like, Yeah, it’s an 800 million dollar account. And I was like, then that’s okay to adjust your roadmap and be designing for that customer like that. Is it?
262 00:33:01.220 ⇒ 00:33:02.540 Neil Oliver: The
263 00:33:03.480 ⇒ 00:33:07.459 Neil Oliver: the more aspirational answer I want to say is.
264 00:33:07.640 ⇒ 00:33:09.270 Neil Oliver: I use
265 00:33:09.470 ⇒ 00:33:11.030 Neil Oliver: my
266 00:33:11.090 ⇒ 00:33:12.590 Neil Oliver: customers
267 00:33:12.800 ⇒ 00:33:30.949 Neil Oliver: to point me in the right direction sometimes. And I think about is this for them, even though it’s a specific ask for them. Is this for them? Or does this actually is this applicable to other people? This is particularly poignant for larger customers. So
268 00:33:31.340 ⇒ 00:33:33.552 Neil Oliver: I may have.
269 00:33:35.560 ⇒ 00:33:38.900 Neil Oliver: I may have, like a large financial customer.
270 00:33:39.080 ⇒ 00:33:40.829 Neil Oliver: Okay? And they might ask.
271 00:33:40.830 ⇒ 00:33:41.800 Uttam Kumaran: Hey, guys.
272 00:33:41.800 ⇒ 00:33:42.560 Neil Oliver: Specific.
273 00:33:42.560 ⇒ 00:33:51.789 Uttam Kumaran: Sorry to interrupt. Hey? Thanks, Neil, so sorry I’m I’m just running around with my head cut off today. But sorry I don’t want to interrupt, continue, continue.
274 00:33:52.180 ⇒ 00:33:54.780 Neil Oliver: No worries. Yeah.
275 00:33:54.780 ⇒ 00:33:56.380 Roy Christian Piñon: Financial customer.
276 00:33:56.380 ⇒ 00:34:21.439 Neil Oliver: Yeah. So they might ask me for something that I’m like. This isn’t really applicable for a large amount of people. But then I’ll realize it’s applicable to every financial institution. And our financial institutions are by far the largest customers that we have. And our biggest user base. So actually, that’s still very, very valid for me to look at, even though across the board it might not be the you know the
277 00:34:22.790 ⇒ 00:34:26.629 Neil Oliver: feature that I would have kind of focused on initially as a as a Pm.
278 00:34:29.479 ⇒ 00:34:30.249 Roy Christian Piñon: Right?
279 00:34:31.299 ⇒ 00:34:34.349 Roy Christian Piñon: Did you somehow go into?
280 00:34:34.869 ⇒ 00:34:37.199 Roy Christian Piñon: Cause this goes a a bit
281 00:34:37.299 ⇒ 00:34:47.169 Roy Christian Piñon: somewhere in the middle. Cause you you would want different types of buy-ins. Right? Yeah, I got the user buy in technical buy in. And the economic buyer.
282 00:34:47.189 ⇒ 00:34:49.819 Roy Christian Piñon: did you have a similar model? Or
283 00:34:49.889 ⇒ 00:34:51.669 Roy Christian Piñon: you use something different.
284 00:34:52.701 ⇒ 00:34:56.008 Neil Oliver: Yeah, each. Oh, God! Each
285 00:34:57.420 ⇒ 00:35:04.209 Neil Oliver: Each different client. You’d get totally different people on the on the phone.
286 00:35:04.930 ⇒ 00:35:16.160 Neil Oliver: And the worst ones were where you’d get someone. And they were like, I, I can 100%. You’re speaking to our problem. I desperately need it. And they’re not the decision maker, and you’re like, Oh, God.
287 00:35:16.420 ⇒ 00:35:17.250 Roy Christian Piñon: And then, you know.
288 00:35:17.250 ⇒ 00:35:21.949 Neil Oliver: The end where you get the decision maker. And these are the ones that were saying.
289 00:35:22.110 ⇒ 00:35:27.420 Neil Oliver: kind of kind of okay, but kind of problematic where they think they know what the problem is.
290 00:35:27.450 ⇒ 00:35:33.570 Neil Oliver: And so you get hired. But you realize that that’s not like you very quickly realize that that’s not the problem that you’re trying to solve.
291 00:35:33.977 ⇒ 00:35:40.639 Neil Oliver: And it’s not what people need and other people aren’t bought in. And that can also be be a problem.
292 00:35:40.640 ⇒ 00:35:45.600 Uttam Kumaran: Week. Yeah, I mean, I we heard the same thing because people just like, Oh, you guys do tech stuff cool.
293 00:35:45.780 ⇒ 00:35:51.749 Uttam Kumaran: And when when I, when I really needed the money, I’m like whatever we’ll do, whatever on planet Earth. But now
294 00:35:51.850 ⇒ 00:35:56.750 Uttam Kumaran: we want to be very clear with what we do and what we don’t do, and just disqualify that folks we can’t.
295 00:35:56.750 ⇒ 00:35:57.400 Neil Oliver: Yeah.
296 00:35:58.310 ⇒ 00:36:02.719 Neil Oliver: yeah, ha, I, I was saying earlier, I do think.
297 00:36:03.810 ⇒ 00:36:12.589 Neil Oliver: I mean, there are definitely bounds to this. I do think that the disqualification part is is really interesting in
298 00:36:14.280 ⇒ 00:36:22.089 Neil Oliver: Gabby and Leah were very careful never to trip them or never to kind of be the blocker to continuing a sales conversation.
299 00:36:23.194 ⇒ 00:36:24.219 Neil Oliver: And
300 00:36:24.630 ⇒ 00:36:32.440 Neil Oliver: often I actually felt like that was a pretty good thing. I think I learned like a good lesson there. I was given the example. I remember
301 00:36:32.470 ⇒ 00:36:41.670 Neil Oliver: being on a call in this customer, or gabby promising them, like 15 people on a on a project, and there was like 12 of us in the company.
302 00:36:41.800 ⇒ 00:36:46.540 Neil Oliver: but she just said it. It just continues the conversation. It’s not a problem at that point.
303 00:36:46.690 ⇒ 00:36:47.450 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
304 00:36:48.150 ⇒ 00:37:01.020 Neil Oliver: I also think there is the other side to it, where sometimes people are asking you to to do things that’s not necessarily about having the expertise or anything else. It’s just the wrong path, and it’s just not the right. You’re not the right fit for them.
305 00:37:01.670 ⇒ 00:37:09.469 Uttam Kumaran: We’re we’re there’s always gonna be that like balance between sales and engineering. And like, we have to pitch something versus what’s possible today.
306 00:37:09.480 ⇒ 00:37:19.479 Uttam Kumaran: The nice thing is like. That’s where I can be kind of the tie break because I see both sides. And I I act as both people like. I’m a split personality most of the day, anyways, but.
307 00:37:19.480 ⇒ 00:37:19.910 Neil Oliver: Yeah.
308 00:37:19.910 ⇒ 00:37:24.910 Uttam Kumaran: Again what we sell and what we can do that will evolve over time, you know. So.
309 00:37:24.910 ⇒ 00:37:46.409 Neil Oliver: Yeah, yeah, I mean, like, like, I say, I, I saw them fuck it up, and I saw them do it really? Well, sometimes it would be, you know, they’d say yes to this this thing that we had no expertise in, and they would go and get someone with that expertise. And it worked really well. And other times they go. Yeah, we can do that. And then we would try and do it with the staff that we had, and like you say, the crack show.
310 00:37:46.410 ⇒ 00:37:57.374 Neil Oliver: And then it was a poor experience, and the client wasn’t happy. So I think it’s fine for you to to say yes to things that you can’t necessarily
311 00:37:57.810 ⇒ 00:38:06.439 Neil Oliver: kind of handle with your current staffing. If you think you can fill that gap but definitely don’t promise the stuff that you think you can squeeze by, because
312 00:38:06.470 ⇒ 00:38:08.000 Neil Oliver: that just doesn’t work.
313 00:38:08.630 ⇒ 00:38:09.300 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
314 00:38:09.550 ⇒ 00:38:27.020 Uttam Kumaran: yeah. And I. And I think you probably heard from from Roy a bit. But you know, we’re we’re we’re testing multiple channels. And I remember I texted the other day, and you know you said a lot of the business. There was mostly referrals, word of mouth, like events, and stuff like coming from them. And one of the things that I was I’m really out of my
315 00:38:27.020 ⇒ 00:38:43.269 Uttam Kumaran: commit now is like we have a multi Channel strategy like. I still the business gonna come through me. That’s fine lovely, if it does. But I do want stuff to come in through cold, outbound. I do want stuff coming where we’re, we’re hitting phones. And I do think that like we need to have
316 00:38:43.520 ⇒ 00:38:46.560 Uttam Kumaran: multiple ways of contacting people.
317 00:38:46.890 ⇒ 00:38:51.260 Uttam Kumaran: And that’s why Roy, I think is is basically coming in to kind of own the
318 00:38:51.320 ⇒ 00:38:59.139 Uttam Kumaran: the piece where we we contact people directly, which I’ve heard from a lot of people in tech is is a good strategy, and not a lot of people are doing. You know that often and.
319 00:38:59.370 ⇒ 00:39:08.469 Neil Oliver: It’s common practice. I would, I was saying. The the big thing is, it’s such common practice that it’s like a headache to these people. So.
320 00:39:08.470 ⇒ 00:39:09.050 Uttam Kumaran: And.
321 00:39:09.420 ⇒ 00:39:10.270 Neil Oliver: Can.
322 00:39:10.770 ⇒ 00:39:13.289 Neil Oliver: if you can very quickly.
323 00:39:14.105 ⇒ 00:39:14.710 Neil Oliver: like
324 00:39:14.750 ⇒ 00:39:19.510 Neil Oliver: effectively like, get them to work out. Why they should talk to you in
325 00:39:19.590 ⇒ 00:39:20.820 Neil Oliver: almost.
326 00:39:21.050 ⇒ 00:39:24.020 Neil Oliver: or just yeah, if if you can get them to
327 00:39:24.050 ⇒ 00:39:28.150 Neil Oliver: not feel like you are another one of the sales pitches that is coming in.
328 00:39:28.621 ⇒ 00:39:48.300 Neil Oliver: Then you’ll do well there, and I think for for us the success was always being able to anchor on a use case very quickly. So being able to go, hey, like. We were working with. You know, whoever saw that you’re a very similar company?
329 00:39:48.625 ⇒ 00:39:51.280 Neil Oliver: And wondered if you were facing the same problem.
330 00:39:52.740 ⇒ 00:39:53.490 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
331 00:39:53.570 ⇒ 00:39:54.550 Neil Oliver: Helped us.
332 00:39:55.430 ⇒ 00:40:00.919 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah. And that’s why I like Roy’s strategy. Because he’s like, Hey, I’m I’m I’m in it. I’m not in it to build like these
333 00:40:00.940 ⇒ 00:40:03.090 Uttam Kumaran: do these like kind of transactional
334 00:40:03.130 ⇒ 00:40:07.490 Uttam Kumaran: dialing. But let’s more build these relationships where we talk. And
335 00:40:07.730 ⇒ 00:40:11.549 Uttam Kumaran: you know, I think that’s also what I want to invest in. We’re gonna have push and pull there. But
336 00:40:13.010 ⇒ 00:40:13.270 Neil Oliver: Now.
337 00:40:13.270 ⇒ 00:40:19.830 Uttam Kumaran: We now have enough clients that we can go after lookalikes and and try to stress the problems we solve for others.
338 00:40:20.010 ⇒ 00:40:22.370 Neil Oliver: That’s exactly that, that it really
339 00:40:22.460 ⇒ 00:40:40.150 Neil Oliver: our success. And I said, I think it was 85% of every one of my clients for the year that I ran it extended their contract, and I truly believe that was down to us, being genuine about trying to help them. And not just bullshitting. Yeah, we can get in and and do some work.
340 00:40:41.450 ⇒ 00:40:51.829 Neil Oliver: and that, and that starts at the sales call we had a sales guy with us for 9 months that didn’t pull in a single close lead.
341 00:40:52.900 ⇒ 00:40:56.649 Neil Oliver: He! He sat with the email campaigns and you know the.
342 00:40:56.650 ⇒ 00:40:57.410 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
343 00:40:57.410 ⇒ 00:41:02.380 Neil Oliver: It was just like they. Everyone gets a hundred of those a day as a.
344 00:41:02.380 ⇒ 00:41:03.160 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
345 00:41:03.560 ⇒ 00:41:05.820 Neil Oliver: At Sigma. I probably get
346 00:41:05.980 ⇒ 00:41:09.829 Neil Oliver: 6 a day. I reckon I’m not even the right fucking person.
347 00:41:10.270 ⇒ 00:41:11.070 Uttam Kumaran: Anonymous.
348 00:41:11.070 ⇒ 00:41:11.790 Neil Oliver: Hey?
349 00:41:12.000 ⇒ 00:41:12.840 Neil Oliver: Like.
350 00:41:13.570 ⇒ 00:41:15.420 Neil Oliver: yeah. Wild. So.
351 00:41:15.420 ⇒ 00:41:20.659 Uttam Kumaran: No, it’s tough dude, because it’s also like for me, I’m trying to figure out. And it’s industry, too, because I think in tech.
352 00:41:20.740 ⇒ 00:41:32.689 Uttam Kumaran: you get bombarded because you’re easily scraped, but like manufacturing and stuff, I think there are some industries where it’s a lot slower. But they’re used to getting vendors. So we’re gonna see? I mean, we’re testing out the emails
353 00:41:32.860 ⇒ 00:41:38.421 Uttam Kumaran: like, I’m gonna know by the end of the year, whether it’s even worth doing emails or not.
354 00:41:38.900 ⇒ 00:41:43.209 Uttam Kumaran: I I don’t know. I’ll go with whatever the best. What’s proving results. That’s it.
355 00:41:43.820 ⇒ 00:41:46.060 Neil Oliver: I I do wonder
356 00:41:48.060 ⇒ 00:41:54.780 Neil Oliver: like the AI stuff with with email writing and stuff was only just coming in when I was doing it a year.
357 00:41:54.780 ⇒ 00:41:57.150 Uttam Kumaran: Now it’s better now. It’s way. Better
358 00:41:57.670 ⇒ 00:42:03.409 Uttam Kumaran: like, there we’re we’re bringing in the company their problems companies that we’ve dealt with before.
359 00:42:03.640 ⇒ 00:42:23.569 Uttam Kumaran: But this is what I told Roy. I told Roy. It’s like, Look, your your job is to make the calls, find out what is working. And then we’re gonna write the emails with that in mind, right? Like, that’s what we’re going to do that. So your learnings is has to get distilled back into the emails. Otherwise, like, we’re not learning anything. And
360 00:42:23.730 ⇒ 00:42:30.769 Uttam Kumaran: and that’s the most personal thing is if we’re on the phone with them. And then we take okay, what’s working. What’s not? Bring that to the emails. And then we’ll also bring that into our content.
361 00:42:30.900 ⇒ 00:42:32.600 Uttam Kumaran: So yeah.
362 00:42:32.914 ⇒ 00:42:37.315 Neil Oliver: Here’s here’s 1 for you that I did do. That was kind of great.
363 00:42:37.840 ⇒ 00:42:49.810 Neil Oliver: So I ended up putting together account. I think I ended up just doing it like a Json object or something. But basically, I had a document of all of our
364 00:42:50.251 ⇒ 00:43:07.028 Neil Oliver: past clients and past use cases and details about those the problems that we solved and all of that. And then what I would do when I was getting on a sales call was I? I created one of those like custom Gpts.
365 00:43:07.510 ⇒ 00:43:35.750 Neil Oliver: and then was like, Okay, like, I’m getting on a call with this, given the website like, which of our current clients? You know. Could I? Could I talk about? Where are the use cases? What details could I bring in here. How could I tie it in? And it would basically give me kind of pointers of going. Oh, well, you know you did this here and you use this approach and whatever else, and it would kind of give me an overview of my past work to be able to.
366 00:43:35.750 ⇒ 00:43:36.680 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
367 00:43:36.680 ⇒ 00:43:37.700 Neil Oliver: The sales.
368 00:43:39.620 ⇒ 00:43:46.019 Uttam Kumaran: So we’re trying a lot of that AI stuff, too, internally, just to make like everybody’s lives like a a lot easier. But
369 00:43:47.790 ⇒ 00:43:48.840 Uttam Kumaran: We’ll see
370 00:43:50.510 ⇒ 00:43:56.269 Uttam Kumaran: Roy any questions. I I basically was like, we just need to extract every ounce of info from Neil.
371 00:43:56.330 ⇒ 00:44:00.340 Uttam Kumaran: But I also wanna make sure that you know he has like a he can like.
372 00:44:00.410 ⇒ 00:44:04.540 Uttam Kumaran: I told him that you’ve been very paramount for a lot of the decisions we’ve made. So
373 00:44:04.851 ⇒ 00:44:06.600 Uttam Kumaran: it’s great to learn from your.
374 00:44:06.700 ⇒ 00:44:08.349 Uttam Kumaran: You know history in this
375 00:44:08.610 ⇒ 00:44:09.320 Uttam Kumaran: this.
376 00:44:10.190 ⇒ 00:44:11.159 Roy Christian Piñon: Did you say like.
377 00:44:11.160 ⇒ 00:44:15.359 Neil Oliver: People do it very differently. I I already said this to Roy.
378 00:44:15.800 ⇒ 00:44:35.910 Neil Oliver: And and people are very successful at it, like I watch. I watch our sales team upstairs, and they’re very traditional sales, and it’s very straightforward, like. The only way that I could do it was through a genuine like, try and try and understand what they are going through, and try and do it through a connections. Type of thing.
379 00:44:38.000 ⇒ 00:44:41.609 Uttam Kumaran: That’s where I think Roy is gonna be somewhere between us. Because
380 00:44:41.680 ⇒ 00:44:45.160 Uttam Kumaran: I still think, like we’re trying to start a big machine.
381 00:44:45.300 ⇒ 00:44:57.000 Uttam Kumaran: And like, I. I’m okay. It’s sales. But I run. I get way, too invested. And I can only handle a couple at a time. Right? So for us to really make this a reliable sales like pipeline
382 00:44:57.220 ⇒ 00:45:01.489 Uttam Kumaran: is, some things will need to become common about how the sales process works
383 00:45:01.570 ⇒ 00:45:06.239 Uttam Kumaran: right. And I think that’s where me and you, Neil, probably aren’t like we’re good.
384 00:45:06.290 ⇒ 00:45:09.930 Uttam Kumaran: But then we’re also like it’s probably not a sustainable right.
385 00:45:09.930 ⇒ 00:45:12.189 Neil Oliver: No, no, no no one knew.
386 00:45:12.190 ⇒ 00:45:12.770 Uttam Kumaran: You know.
387 00:45:13.130 ⇒ 00:45:15.239 Neil Oliver: Yeah. And I I see the
388 00:45:15.330 ⇒ 00:45:22.689 Neil Oliver: you know, it’s a 6 step process for sales here. And it’s just I don’t know. Sometimes it feels.
389 00:45:22.690 ⇒ 00:45:23.770 Uttam Kumaran: The grind.
390 00:45:24.250 ⇒ 00:45:26.160 Neil Oliver: At the same time like.
391 00:45:26.310 ⇒ 00:45:27.500 Uttam Kumaran: It works.
392 00:45:27.500 ⇒ 00:45:28.159 Neil Oliver: Like they are.
393 00:45:28.160 ⇒ 00:45:28.950 Uttam Kumaran: I know.
394 00:45:28.950 ⇒ 00:45:32.078 Neil Oliver: Absolutely killing it. So there is.
395 00:45:32.700 ⇒ 00:45:39.179 Neil Oliver: There’s definitely experts out there to do it. But in the, you know, in the relatively early stage.
396 00:45:39.370 ⇒ 00:45:41.640 Neil Oliver: I just think truly
397 00:45:41.930 ⇒ 00:45:42.670 Neil Oliver: that
398 00:45:42.680 ⇒ 00:45:57.350 Neil Oliver: I think you can still be genuine on, on every call. The example I was given to Roy was, if the if the worry is, if the pushback is like the idea that you might be taking away somebody’s job or manual processes and that type of thing.
399 00:45:57.350 ⇒ 00:46:13.220 Neil Oliver: I was like, flip it on its head. I was like, just start the conversation. Nothing to do with you, and start the conversation with understanding. What are their company priorities. What is that person trying to do? Where do they want to be in 12 months and then tie in what you’re doing, and how that’s going to get them there. So by like.
400 00:46:13.620 ⇒ 00:46:15.439 Neil Oliver: typically any.
401 00:46:15.470 ⇒ 00:46:19.780 Neil Oliver: any strategy that anyone has is going to come down to time and resources.
402 00:46:20.010 ⇒ 00:46:24.330 Neil Oliver: And so the thing that you’re giving them back is time and resources, and the reason.
403 00:46:24.330 ⇒ 00:46:24.990 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah. Don’t.
404 00:46:24.990 ⇒ 00:46:38.839 Neil Oliver: And that time and resource themselves is you’re going to do it better, faster, and everything else. So the payment really is nothing, because it’s like compound growth, like your tiny investment here. The 3 months here actually is.
405 00:46:39.190 ⇒ 00:46:40.989 Neil Oliver: It’s going to get them ahead of the game.
406 00:46:41.610 ⇒ 00:46:58.399 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah. And I think you know now that we have enough case studies the folks we worked with. And that’s the one thing is like, I’m trying to basically download all my brain into like writings. But we I wanna know that, like for any company walk into, we have a case study, or an example or a benefit that we’ve proven
407 00:46:58.928 ⇒ 00:47:23.730 Uttam Kumaran: but I I do agree that the stuff we do like you immediately see, Roi, and there’s you could say, like, you’re you get into class with X Company, who’s also using Snowflake or Y company. That’s also using bi tools. And then you’re like, why they’re using it. We better get on that, too, you know. So I mean, and I mean, that’s not you guys have killed it, I think, like. And you guys are taking over as like the number one bi tool, basically with that, with that, like a huge strategy, there.
408 00:47:23.730 ⇒ 00:47:46.970 Neil Oliver: It’s it’s doing. We’re doing really. Well. Tableau is in a really weird place. They’re not really doing anything we found out. They. So they they just fired a load of people and their their strategy is not to sell tableau. It’s to get their salesforce reps to tack on tableau on the end of a salesforce contract.
409 00:47:47.870 ⇒ 00:47:49.030 Uttam Kumaran: Oh, yeah. Yeah.
410 00:47:49.670 ⇒ 00:47:54.209 Neil Oliver: That’s that’s all. They see it as at the minute. And
411 00:47:54.500 ⇒ 00:47:57.909 Neil Oliver: a power bi is actually the biggest.
412 00:47:57.910 ⇒ 00:47:59.760 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, power. Bi is the biggest.
413 00:47:59.970 ⇒ 00:48:11.139 Neil Oliver: But the issue is, it’s all tied into fabric. So it’s now. Oh, so you you don’t want to use the rest of the Microsoft infrastructure power. Bi is not for you.
414 00:48:12.010 ⇒ 00:48:20.339 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, that’s the thing. That’s why we’re I mean, like, I would use you guys, we haven’t been anywhere where they’re using Sigma. But that’s why we’re going for rail and some stuff that we can bring along
415 00:48:20.630 ⇒ 00:48:22.939 Uttam Kumaran: like, where the data tools are good.
416 00:48:24.820 ⇒ 00:48:31.769 Uttam Kumaran: But yeah, I mean, and Looker, too, is still dead in the water. It’s like just Gcp. So they both had the same strategies. They just tack it on.
417 00:48:32.420 ⇒ 00:48:34.020 Neil Oliver: Like Omni’s coming up
418 00:48:34.377 ⇒ 00:48:37.872 Neil Oliver: that’s obviously like Omni is all of the look of people.
419 00:48:38.190 ⇒ 00:48:38.960 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
420 00:48:38.960 ⇒ 00:48:39.659 Neil Oliver: I was actually.
421 00:48:39.660 ⇒ 00:48:42.500 Uttam Kumaran: It looks like looker, right? Isn’t it? Just like, basically looker.
422 00:48:42.710 ⇒ 00:48:46.289 Neil Oliver: It was literally the the one of the co-founders of looker. Yeah.
423 00:48:46.290 ⇒ 00:48:46.909 Uttam Kumaran: That’s what I thought.
424 00:48:46.910 ⇒ 00:48:51.319 Neil Oliver: Brought a load of the load of the staff, and they went off and did that.
425 00:48:51.903 ⇒ 00:48:54.720 Neil Oliver: I I’ll tell you what
426 00:48:54.800 ⇒ 00:48:58.275 Neil Oliver: the people that I have my eye on.
427 00:48:58.830 ⇒ 00:49:00.669 Neil Oliver: He was still.
428 00:49:01.400 ⇒ 00:49:03.929 Neil Oliver: It’s a much smaller
429 00:49:04.120 ⇒ 00:49:08.420 Neil Oliver: market that they’re after, but now they are rapidly expanding. Is hex.
430 00:49:08.780 ⇒ 00:49:12.270 Uttam Kumaran: That’s what I was gonna thought you said Hex. But dude like, how is notebooks?
431 00:49:12.490 ⇒ 00:49:15.569 Uttam Kumaran: Cause you have Google colab and shit. That’s like, just.
432 00:49:15.570 ⇒ 00:49:20.050 Neil Oliver: They’re gonna they’re gonna do bi. So they did the notebook and they did it well. And then they get.
433 00:49:20.050 ⇒ 00:49:21.170 Uttam Kumaran: Right into bi.
434 00:49:21.170 ⇒ 00:49:29.060 Neil Oliver: How they’re going to expand out, which is, I don’t know if that’s going to be successful. But what they do for notebooks is a higher quality.
435 00:49:29.060 ⇒ 00:49:29.850 Uttam Kumaran: For sure.
436 00:49:30.230 ⇒ 00:49:33.200 Neil Oliver: Polish than anyone else is doing than like we do.
437 00:49:33.200 ⇒ 00:49:38.720 Uttam Kumaran: Notebook product. But like, I don’t know how you compete.
438 00:49:39.100 ⇒ 00:49:42.400 Uttam Kumaran: Because dude, the Ml people are not doing dashboards.
439 00:49:42.470 ⇒ 00:49:44.949 Uttam Kumaran: They’re they’re doing like.
440 00:49:45.660 ⇒ 00:49:49.000 Uttam Kumaran: and Google, Colab and Snowflake now has notebooks.
441 00:49:49.070 ⇒ 00:49:51.279 Uttam Kumaran: Databricks already has notebooks.
442 00:49:51.890 ⇒ 00:49:52.455 Uttam Kumaran: It’s
443 00:49:53.200 ⇒ 00:49:54.839 Neil Oliver: The whole thing.
444 00:49:55.450 ⇒ 00:49:59.250 Neil Oliver: The whole game is total addressable market. That’s the whole thing.
445 00:49:59.470 ⇒ 00:50:02.100 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I guess for them if they were trying to raise money. Yeah.
446 00:50:02.100 ⇒ 00:50:04.909 Neil Oliver: It’s not, it’s not. Do the focus.
447 00:50:04.910 ⇒ 00:50:07.550 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, yeah, it’s not the product quality.
448 00:50:08.290 ⇒ 00:50:09.310 Neil Oliver: It’s like.
449 00:50:10.420 ⇒ 00:50:15.809 Neil Oliver: just where can I do something that brings that can bring in a new set of people.
450 00:50:16.530 ⇒ 00:50:20.059 Uttam Kumaran: Well, let me tell you an interesting thing that we just did. So we I’ve been.
451 00:50:20.070 ⇒ 00:50:38.260 Uttam Kumaran: We’ve been implementing real real data at a couple of companies and I became very close with their head of sales, and then I met their CEO and CTO, product is sick. Dude product is great. Bi is code. Very slick. Built on the click house and duck. dB,
452 00:50:38.930 ⇒ 00:50:48.227 Uttam Kumaran: very. It’s like amazing product. Pretty cost effective operational dashboards. And they’re white. They’re gonna start white, labeling us as their
453 00:50:48.890 ⇒ 00:50:50.410 Uttam Kumaran: like sales. Engineers.
454 00:50:50.880 ⇒ 00:50:51.560 Neil Oliver: Awesome.
455 00:50:51.700 ⇒ 00:50:52.500 Neil Oliver: That’s amazing.
456 00:50:52.500 ⇒ 00:51:02.630 Uttam Kumaran: Which is, yeah. And that’s a relationship I’ve been working on for months now. Hoped it was kind of gonna end up there also was just like, Look, that’s a tool we’re selling for Bi.
457 00:51:02.650 ⇒ 00:51:05.900 Uttam Kumaran: So we’re starting an engagement next week, where
458 00:51:05.940 ⇒ 00:51:10.480 Uttam Kumaran: for one of their clients, we’re basically doing the onboarding for their Poc
459 00:51:10.690 ⇒ 00:51:20.610 Uttam Kumaran: and cause real doesn’t have sales engineers. They just have normal engineers. And those guys aren’t client like, there’s all these problems because those guys aren’t client facing like
460 00:51:20.690 ⇒ 00:51:27.759 Uttam Kumaran: the head of sales is bringing in like Rando back end folks to do client proof of concepts like it’s it’s a.
461 00:51:27.920 ⇒ 00:51:35.009 Uttam Kumaran: So then I was like, Hey, I’ll give you our rates, and you can bring us in. And we know the product. We work with clients and implement your product every day.
462 00:51:35.500 ⇒ 00:51:39.049 Uttam Kumaran: And so that’s our 1st foray into it. That’s that’s starting next next week.
463 00:51:39.290 ⇒ 00:51:49.449 Neil Oliver: I how the hell I missed! That is the recommendation. Like, you’re, you’re actually spot on there. That was was a big realization, because it happened one month, like
464 00:51:49.550 ⇒ 00:52:01.859 Neil Oliver: a bringing in a new client, because we were retaining so many, bringing in just even one new client every month was pretty great like 2 was awesome, but like that was a slog, and it was down to like the Referrals and everything else.
465 00:52:02.060 ⇒ 00:52:04.650 Neil Oliver: And then I realized that
466 00:52:05.183 ⇒ 00:52:09.890 Neil Oliver: it’s just one. Take one account. Exec at Sigma
467 00:52:10.060 ⇒ 00:52:13.050 Neil Oliver: is potentially in
468 00:52:13.170 ⇒ 00:52:15.699 Neil Oliver: 50 sales calls a month.
469 00:52:15.740 ⇒ 00:52:25.579 Neil Oliver: and they could be referring you to 50 people that are pretty likely to, you know it, or a much higher chance than a cold outreach that.
470 00:52:25.580 ⇒ 00:52:26.380 Uttam Kumaran: For sure.
471 00:52:26.800 ⇒ 00:52:32.650 Neil Oliver: I think there was one month that they they got us on like 5 calls, and it was like, this is, this is nuts.
472 00:52:32.840 ⇒ 00:52:33.640 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
473 00:52:34.000 ⇒ 00:52:35.720 Neil Oliver: In front of 5 new people.
474 00:52:36.912 ⇒ 00:52:43.249 Neil Oliver: One didn’t go with Sigma and went with another bi tool and still got back to us.
475 00:52:43.250 ⇒ 00:52:44.090 Uttam Kumaran: No problem.
476 00:52:44.510 ⇒ 00:52:46.250 Neil Oliver: From the the Sigma calls like
477 00:52:46.510 ⇒ 00:52:48.860 Neil Oliver: fantastic. So, yeah.
478 00:52:48.860 ⇒ 00:52:49.460 Uttam Kumaran: I suck.
479 00:52:49.460 ⇒ 00:52:52.779 Neil Oliver: Great way forward. Great.
480 00:52:53.940 ⇒ 00:52:59.059 Uttam Kumaran: Cool. I know we’ve kept you on for a while, Roy. Any other? Any other questions for Neil while we have him.
481 00:52:59.630 ⇒ 00:53:04.730 Roy Christian Piñon: Yeah, I I didn’t exactly ask him for his kind of discovery.
482 00:53:06.600 ⇒ 00:53:07.490 Roy Christian Piñon: Yeah.
483 00:53:08.840 ⇒ 00:53:10.260 Roy Christian Piñon: Do you still remember.
484 00:53:10.760 ⇒ 00:53:11.560 Neil Oliver: Sorry.
485 00:53:11.810 ⇒ 00:53:15.609 Roy Christian Piñon: You still remember your kind of discovery calls.
486 00:53:19.690 ⇒ 00:53:25.990 Neil Oliver: again, like, I just go back like, I really go back to that idea of
487 00:53:26.180 ⇒ 00:53:28.700 Neil Oliver: it was just trying to get people talking.
488 00:53:28.980 ⇒ 00:53:35.200 Neil Oliver: But that was, that was the the main thing. If somebody comes out of that call feeling positive.
489 00:53:35.490 ⇒ 00:53:41.909 Neil Oliver: you can follow that up. And hopefully, you’ve learned everything. So it really is like truly thinking about it as
490 00:53:43.260 ⇒ 00:53:52.649 Neil Oliver: like as discovery like taking away the idea of it being like part of the sales process, and whatever else, just in order to help this person, what do I need to know
491 00:53:53.080 ⇒ 00:54:01.219 Neil Oliver: like, and just going back to that? Can I get them to talk. Can I keep them going? And then the other bit that I that I did say to Roy is then
492 00:54:01.240 ⇒ 00:54:03.880 Neil Oliver: like being able to sprinkle in
493 00:54:05.770 ⇒ 00:54:07.020 Neil Oliver: where, like
494 00:54:07.180 ⇒ 00:54:12.129 Neil Oliver: a sense of trust that you know what you’re doing.
495 00:54:12.360 ⇒ 00:54:18.869 Neil Oliver: That’s that was my aim by the end of a 1st call. So get that person that, like everyone loves fucking, talking.
496 00:54:18.900 ⇒ 00:54:30.238 Neil Oliver: Get that person to talk, get them to feel great. And then the other part of it is, if I can sprinkle in. Oh, yeah, XY and Z company that we work with have a similar problem. I don’t. I don’t need to oversell it.
497 00:54:30.480 ⇒ 00:54:31.270 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah. Oh, yeah.
498 00:54:31.585 ⇒ 00:54:40.420 Neil Oliver: That brings this tool to mind, because we’ve had great success with that, and just leaving those things just sprinkling them in, they walk away, and they’re like
499 00:54:40.490 ⇒ 00:54:43.639 Neil Oliver: was a fucking great person to to talk to, though.
500 00:54:43.640 ⇒ 00:54:44.460 Uttam Kumaran: Rely on.
501 00:54:44.700 ⇒ 00:54:56.330 Neil Oliver: But they’re also like they they knew that shit happy, and and that’s all you want. What’s the purpose of the discovery? Call to gather information for you. But to really get on the next fucking call.
502 00:54:56.450 ⇒ 00:54:57.429 Neil Oliver: Don’t think.
503 00:54:57.940 ⇒ 00:54:59.809 Neil Oliver: don’t think beyond that. Just
504 00:55:00.330 ⇒ 00:55:01.200 Neil Oliver: like.
505 00:55:02.090 ⇒ 00:55:04.440 Neil Oliver: how do I get somebody to get to the next bit.
506 00:55:06.230 ⇒ 00:55:15.690 Neil Oliver: I also I felt the same. We had really good success like beyond that when someone was like, Oh, you know, Budget, that sounds too big, whatever it was, just like.
507 00:55:16.492 ⇒ 00:55:27.299 Neil Oliver: never lost out on the idea of just being like. Just try us for 2 weeks. I’ll I’ll change our contract you can. You can get out after 2 weeks. No problem at all. Nobody ever fails.
508 00:55:27.300 ⇒ 00:55:29.120 Uttam Kumaran: Really, okay, cool.
509 00:55:29.120 ⇒ 00:55:29.910 Neil Oliver: No, not fucking.
510 00:55:29.910 ⇒ 00:55:36.070 Uttam Kumaran: So I’ve never. I’ve never marketed that. But we I always say that. But I never like made it super clear. Because.
511 00:55:36.220 ⇒ 00:55:40.049 Uttam Kumaran: yeah, I mean. Look, we’re it’s an expensive product. But
512 00:55:40.850 ⇒ 00:55:44.940 Uttam Kumaran: I do. Maybe that’s the way we handle that objection better is like.
513 00:55:45.370 ⇒ 00:55:47.960 Uttam Kumaran: try us for 2 weeks and cut us off. You don’t like us.
514 00:55:47.960 ⇒ 00:55:50.930 Neil Oliver: The the confidence in just being like
515 00:55:50.960 ⇒ 00:56:07.044 Neil Oliver: fucking no issue with that at all. Like the last thing that I want. Both of our time is valuable. We want to be working with people that see the value we’re we’re confident we can bring that value to you. Why don’t we try this couple of weeks?
516 00:56:07.540 ⇒ 00:56:12.539 Neil Oliver: and you know, and and we’re confident that we can, we can show you that value in 2 weeks.
517 00:56:14.170 ⇒ 00:56:16.810 Neil Oliver: yeah, people. People really kind of
518 00:56:17.580 ⇒ 00:56:31.990 Neil Oliver: enjoyed that side of things I was saying like Gabby, and they were very good, even though sometimes it did kind of feel fake. One of the things they always had was we need a 2 to 3 week lead time
519 00:56:32.722 ⇒ 00:56:34.050 Neil Oliver: on any sale.
520 00:56:34.190 ⇒ 00:56:39.799 Neil Oliver: and the thing that that did was gives the impression that you’re very, very busy, regardless if you are.
521 00:56:39.900 ⇒ 00:56:54.664 Neil Oliver: If you’ve promised something that you can’t currently do, it gives you a bit of headway, and the most most of the time you wouldn’t do the 2 week lead time, anyway, and it just gave you like a positive because you had done them a favor by starting early.
522 00:56:54.960 ⇒ 00:56:56.850 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, we’re starting early. Yeah, exactly.
523 00:56:57.050 ⇒ 00:56:59.430 Neil Oliver: I like. I I said, like I did.
524 00:56:59.750 ⇒ 00:57:01.160 Neil Oliver: I think
525 00:57:01.610 ⇒ 00:57:21.040 Neil Oliver: I think we had done. I can’t remember what we had for our pricing structure originally, but I think it was like 50% of, like the the contract, or whatever at the beginning. And then if you’re starting early, it’s like, Oh, yeah. Well, in order to start early, we’re gonna have to do 75% upfront what? It just gives you room to be able to talk about things.
526 00:57:21.510 ⇒ 00:57:22.330 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I’m.
527 00:57:22.940 ⇒ 00:57:30.559 Neil Oliver: Yeah, there was a lot there the the worst time we were ever in sales. This is the truest thing of anything.
528 00:57:30.690 ⇒ 00:57:31.790 Neil Oliver: and
529 00:57:31.860 ⇒ 00:57:33.550 Neil Oliver: unfortunately, I was
530 00:57:33.610 ⇒ 00:57:35.799 Neil Oliver: like. As I reflect back, I just
531 00:57:36.860 ⇒ 00:57:39.220 Neil Oliver: didn’t have a good poker face.
532 00:57:39.250 ⇒ 00:57:47.789 Neil Oliver: but like the whole, like the sharks can smell blood like if you’re desperate for sales. That is the worst time we’ve ever had for sales was when.
533 00:57:47.790 ⇒ 00:57:48.490 Uttam Kumaran: And it’s like, Oh.
534 00:57:48.490 ⇒ 00:57:52.570 Neil Oliver: We can do that a discount. Oh, yeah, maybe we can do that, or we can get
535 00:57:52.870 ⇒ 00:57:58.099 Neil Oliver: it. Just it just seems to come straight across, and people are like
536 00:58:00.270 ⇒ 00:58:02.430 Neil Oliver: the the times that we were
537 00:58:03.040 ⇒ 00:58:08.329 Neil Oliver: doing really well and genuinely didn’t like it. It didn’t affect us. If we had another client or not.
538 00:58:08.540 ⇒ 00:58:14.519 Neil Oliver: The the sales went extremely well, and we’d end up growing from strength to strength.
539 00:58:14.910 ⇒ 00:58:15.640 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
540 00:58:15.990 ⇒ 00:58:21.960 Uttam Kumaran: no, we’ve done. We’ve I mean, it’s tough because you have to start somewhere in this business. Now we’re a little bit more strict.
541 00:58:22.120 ⇒ 00:58:31.280 Uttam Kumaran: And I offer discounts only for like, if you’re gonna increase term, basically with us, like, if you’re going month to month, and it’s like, it’s mad, expensive.
542 00:58:31.350 ⇒ 00:58:33.809 Uttam Kumaran: If you book 6 months at a time.
543 00:58:34.050 ⇒ 00:58:38.340 Uttam Kumaran: then we give you a better rate, and then that’ll that’ll start to change as we go
544 00:58:38.830 ⇒ 00:58:40.120 Uttam Kumaran: get better and better.
545 00:58:40.340 ⇒ 00:58:41.950 Uttam Kumaran: But it is tough. Yeah, it’s
546 00:58:42.720 ⇒ 00:58:43.700 Uttam Kumaran: it’s hard.
547 00:58:44.820 ⇒ 00:58:59.550 Neil Oliver: There’s a guy called Chris Chris DOE, who does a lot with like pricing and bits of that. He’s like he runs a creative agency, and he’s like Super blunt with it. But some of it is like, Oh, I wish I had that confidence. I think I must have sent him.
548 00:58:59.550 ⇒ 00:59:01.080 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, you did. You did. Yeah, yeah.
549 00:59:01.080 ⇒ 00:59:11.730 Neil Oliver: The guy that’s just like like they’ll they’ll be like, oh, could you do it for whatever he’s like? Oh, I didn’t realize that it. That it was an important problem for you to solve that just.
550 00:59:11.730 ⇒ 00:59:12.360 Uttam Kumaran: I know.
551 00:59:12.685 ⇒ 00:59:13.010 Neil Oliver: Okay.
552 00:59:13.010 ⇒ 00:59:13.410 Uttam Kumaran: It’s just
553 00:59:15.240 ⇒ 00:59:17.000 Uttam Kumaran: the thing that’s where it’s like.
554 00:59:17.580 ⇒ 00:59:21.670 Uttam Kumaran: I I’m just not a good sales like I can’t even do that.
555 00:59:22.190 ⇒ 00:59:27.390 Neil Oliver: No, there’s there’s some of it, some of it I can get in and.
556 00:59:27.390 ⇒ 00:59:29.809 Uttam Kumaran: Play some of the tactics like, but
557 00:59:30.290 ⇒ 00:59:34.120 Uttam Kumaran: stuff like that is ruthless. It’s just
558 00:59:35.230 ⇒ 00:59:36.140 Uttam Kumaran: yeah.
559 00:59:37.630 ⇒ 00:59:38.670 Neil Oliver: Yeah, well, it’s up.
560 00:59:38.760 ⇒ 00:59:42.587 Neil Oliver: What’s the whole like? Can you do it for less? It’s like we can do it for more.
561 00:59:43.020 ⇒ 00:59:49.510 Uttam Kumaran: Well, I usually tell people I’m like, Yeah, I just say, like, today’s price is not yesterday’s price. I say that a lot.
562 00:59:49.630 ⇒ 00:59:53.610 Uttam Kumaran: cause I’m like yo. You can get in now, but if we start getting busy, then the rates go up
563 00:59:53.700 ⇒ 00:59:56.659 Uttam Kumaran: because I’m not trying to like. I can’t.
564 00:59:56.790 ⇒ 01:00:09.691 Uttam Kumaran: My ability to hire great people is always the hardest part of this business. Second is the sales. So we can’t grow the sales unless we get creative. So we’ll just jack the prices up. Basically.
565 01:00:10.040 ⇒ 01:00:16.750 Neil Oliver: I like the confidence to say no is actually really like powerful in that
566 01:00:17.820 ⇒ 01:00:35.050 Neil Oliver: in what we’re talking about, about making sure that you come across as confident, and that you do not need this business. You’re not trying to be an asshole about it, but when someone says, Can you offer a discount like actually the 1st one, even if I was going to do the Yes for a longer period. The 1st word out my mouth would be no.
567 01:00:35.280 ⇒ 01:00:44.769 Neil Oliver: Can you offer a discount? No, we don’t offer like, you know. No, this is the price of working with us. However, if you’d like to sign on for a longer term.
568 01:00:44.870 ⇒ 01:00:45.890 Neil Oliver: and maybe we could.
569 01:00:45.890 ⇒ 01:00:47.800 Uttam Kumaran: I can make a consideration.
570 01:00:47.800 ⇒ 01:00:50.020 Neil Oliver: Yeah like. And and then.
571 01:00:50.330 ⇒ 01:00:53.739 Neil Oliver: oh, shit! Hang on! I’ve got to remember this now.
572 01:00:59.570 ⇒ 01:01:02.860 Neil Oliver: fuck! There’s something to do with not offering discounts.
573 01:01:06.730 ⇒ 01:01:10.520 Uttam Kumaran: Well, people usually say like we don’t ever offer. We have no discount.
574 01:01:10.990 ⇒ 01:01:11.900 Uttam Kumaran: like
575 01:01:12.370 ⇒ 01:01:14.969 Uttam Kumaran: the prices are what you see, or something.
576 01:01:15.250 ⇒ 01:01:19.893 Neil Oliver: Okay, the problem. No, no, it’s you can offer a discount. But
577 01:01:20.766 ⇒ 01:01:32.710 Neil Oliver: see, if you understand the difference, instead of being like, if you sign up for 6 months we can do a 20% discount. If you sign up for 6 months, we’ll do one month for free.
578 01:01:32.790 ⇒ 01:01:33.890 Neil Oliver: Now the difference
579 01:01:34.700 ⇒ 01:01:36.040 Neil Oliver: things is.
580 01:01:36.080 ⇒ 01:01:42.030 Neil Oliver: if you offer the discount when they come to renew or extend, they’re going to expect the 20% discount.
581 01:01:42.030 ⇒ 01:01:42.890 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
582 01:01:42.890 ⇒ 01:01:48.000 Neil Oliver: With the 6 months and one month free is they got the one month free because they bought another 6 months.
583 01:01:48.260 ⇒ 01:01:49.210 Neil Oliver: Yeah.
584 01:01:49.210 ⇒ 01:01:53.990 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, no, you’re right. I mean, that’s what they do for rentals. Right? That’s why. Because you don’t pro. You don’t prorate it.
585 01:01:54.410 ⇒ 01:01:54.930 Neil Oliver: Yeah.
586 01:01:54.930 ⇒ 01:01:59.249 Uttam Kumaran: They. So they don’t do discounts. They just cause they want to keep the average rent price high.
587 01:02:00.590 ⇒ 01:02:08.294 Neil Oliver: So there’s there’s a few things like that to really look into, to guarantee that that this is to
588 01:02:08.920 ⇒ 01:02:16.169 Neil Oliver: like close a deal, or whatever it is, and because you always want it
589 01:02:16.250 ⇒ 01:02:21.120 Neil Oliver: that they can’t come back and go. Well, you did it last time. So whatever way you word it.
590 01:02:21.890 ⇒ 01:02:26.699 Neil Oliver: It is you. You need to make sure that when you renew
591 01:02:27.170 ⇒ 01:02:32.090 Neil Oliver: that they’re not just going to expect the same thing unless they commit to the same thing again, if it really.
592 01:02:32.090 ⇒ 01:02:38.090 Uttam Kumaran: I mean, we should. Yeah, yeah, I agree. We should almost give like, the 1st 2 weeks free and just like 5 train. How they give you the free
593 01:02:38.130 ⇒ 01:02:40.609 Uttam Kumaran: data initially. Maybe we should just be like.
594 01:02:40.990 ⇒ 01:02:42.859 Uttam Kumaran: we’re happy to give you 2 weeks free.
595 01:02:43.160 ⇒ 01:02:49.619 Uttam Kumaran: Just set stuff up and then get to in something initial. If you sign this, you know, or something like that.
596 01:02:49.710 ⇒ 01:02:51.130 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, that’s great.
597 01:02:51.950 ⇒ 01:02:53.210 Neil Oliver: There was.
598 01:02:56.450 ⇒ 01:03:02.090 Neil Oliver: What is it? A dish, do you know? Indian restaurant in London?
599 01:03:02.470 ⇒ 01:03:03.320 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, did.
600 01:03:03.837 ⇒ 01:03:06.422 Neil Oliver: They did a thing with
601 01:03:07.791 ⇒ 01:03:14.069 Neil Oliver: trying to get people in. It was quiet hours, and they were trying to get people to eat and get out before 6 Pm.
602 01:03:14.737 ⇒ 01:03:28.920 Neil Oliver: And so they did a thing which was, if you paid your bill before, or if you got your bill before 6 Pm. They would give you a dice, and if you rolled a 6 you got your meal for free.
603 01:03:30.400 ⇒ 01:03:31.530 Uttam Kumaran: Wow!
604 01:03:31.750 ⇒ 01:03:40.959 Neil Oliver: Which sounds amazing to anybody like coming in. That’s awesome. That’s the same as like a like a 13%, or whatever it is.
605 01:03:40.960 ⇒ 01:03:42.850 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, yeah. It ends up averaging.
606 01:03:43.150 ⇒ 01:04:07.270 Neil Oliver: Yeah, but also the other one is mentally, not only is that the same, and it wouldn’t have encouraged you with a percentage, but also, you’d feel like a fucking idiot if you skimped on your bill to then get it for free. So actually like encourage people to spend more because they were like, there’s a chance I’m getting this all for free. So not only did their average spend go up and they made it, but it’s more enticing to people coming in. So there’s.
607 01:04:07.270 ⇒ 01:04:08.350 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I mean.
608 01:04:08.350 ⇒ 01:04:09.730 Neil Oliver: Stupid things coming.
609 01:04:10.260 ⇒ 01:04:14.329 Uttam Kumaran: We should offer, we should offer a discount to pay bills on 1st week
610 01:04:14.630 ⇒ 01:04:15.640 Uttam Kumaran: like
611 01:04:15.880 ⇒ 01:04:16.944 Uttam Kumaran: that would be great.
612 01:04:18.170 ⇒ 01:04:30.130 Roy Christian Piñon: There’s a person I I would want to share with you. So his name’s Todd Capone. There is actually 4, but the the free month is actually pretty interesting. So you can negotiate
613 01:04:30.170 ⇒ 01:04:35.019 Roy Christian Piñon: one term you are using, like, you know, multi year.
614 01:04:35.150 ⇒ 01:04:39.280 Roy Christian Piñon: The other one is like instant cash
615 01:04:39.340 ⇒ 01:04:41.460 Roy Christian Piñon: like, if you’re actually willing to pay.
616 01:04:41.740 ⇒ 01:04:42.949 Roy Christian Piñon: we can bring.
617 01:04:42.950 ⇒ 01:04:43.410 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, yeah.
618 01:04:43.410 ⇒ 01:04:53.609 Roy Christian Piñon: Price. And before you actually set the discount you you mentioned like, what price or what discount percentage did you have in mind? And then you you lever those
619 01:04:53.620 ⇒ 01:05:00.149 Roy Christian Piñon: the the other one is. There’s the speed, there’s the length. Then there’s the
620 01:05:00.530 ⇒ 01:05:01.960 Roy Christian Piñon: gotta look him up.
621 01:05:02.060 ⇒ 01:05:04.726 Roy Christian Piñon: But it’s always there.
622 01:05:05.750 ⇒ 01:05:06.930 Roy Christian Piñon: term
623 01:05:07.850 ⇒ 01:05:15.159 Roy Christian Piñon: referral. Of course that’s 1. But let me let me just quickly get his his, because he did a blog about that.
624 01:05:15.860 ⇒ 01:05:20.760 Neil Oliver: It’s like it’s reminding me of the again. Another Chris DOE thing where he’s like
625 01:05:22.260 ⇒ 01:05:25.289 Neil Oliver: There’s there’s 3 things, and you can only pick 2
626 01:05:25.500 ⇒ 01:05:29.379 Neil Oliver: like it. It can be can be fast. It can be cheap. It can be good.
627 01:05:29.560 ⇒ 01:05:30.990 Neil Oliver: You can only update
628 01:05:31.780 ⇒ 01:05:34.349 Neil Oliver: if you want it fast and good. It’s not going to be cheap.
629 01:05:34.770 ⇒ 01:05:35.440 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
630 01:05:35.440 ⇒ 01:05:36.940 Neil Oliver: Yeah, so
631 01:05:37.030 ⇒ 01:05:42.149 Neil Oliver: that one always makes me laugh. I’m going to find this guy that said about the dashroom thing because he’s got loads of.
632 01:05:42.150 ⇒ 01:05:43.630 Uttam Kumaran: Please. I want to read that.
633 01:05:43.680 ⇒ 01:05:45.539 Uttam Kumaran: I’m gonna go. I wanna yeah.
634 01:05:45.540 ⇒ 01:05:48.880 Neil Oliver: Been watching. He’s been coming up on my Instagram, but there’s
635 01:05:49.720 ⇒ 01:06:02.809 Neil Oliver: like I really do like the way he makes me step back to think about things. So he’s giving the example of the Eurotunnel that goes from like London to Paris. And they spent like.
636 01:06:03.936 ⇒ 01:06:13.939 Neil Oliver: how how many like 5 billion dollars reducing the the time of the journey by like 30 min.
637 01:06:15.430 ⇒ 01:06:16.790 Neil Oliver: And
638 01:06:16.880 ⇒ 01:06:18.140 Neil Oliver: he was like
639 01:06:18.360 ⇒ 01:06:26.279 Neil Oliver: 5 billion dollars he was like, but you could have solved that same problem by just giving free Wi-fi on the train people, probably
640 01:06:27.160 ⇒ 01:06:48.190 Neil Oliver: 30 min for free Wi-fi on the train. He was like actually for half the cost of it. I think I think free Wi-fi was at 1% of the cost, and he was like for less than half half the cost on it. You could have had runway models walking up and down the train, giving free champagne to everyone on there, and he was like, and people would have been asking for the journey to be longer, not shorter, and you would have sold half the amount.
641 01:06:48.330 ⇒ 01:06:49.510 Neil Oliver: And it’s like
642 01:06:49.680 ⇒ 01:06:50.550 Neil Oliver: fuck.
643 01:06:50.720 ⇒ 01:06:51.360 Neil Oliver: Yeah, Hi.
644 01:06:51.360 ⇒ 01:06:52.180 Uttam Kumaran: So right.
645 01:06:52.180 ⇒ 01:06:53.950 Neil Oliver: Is questioning.
646 01:06:54.280 ⇒ 01:06:55.110 Neil Oliver: like
647 01:06:55.750 ⇒ 01:07:08.899 Neil Oliver: our assumptions on things like what you know, what the reservations are going to be. Is that really a reservation? What does somebody care about? I think sometimes we go. Oh, fuck! They’re going to care about the fact that I’m about to tell them a big price
648 01:07:09.130 ⇒ 01:07:24.109 Neil Oliver: they might not care about that. They might care way more about the fact that they don’t know who they’re going to be working with, or whether you’re going to be there in a year, or if you’ve got the experience, like, I think we jump into the assumptions on the part that they’re going to care about.
649 01:07:24.820 ⇒ 01:07:25.510 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
650 01:07:25.680 ⇒ 01:07:26.740 Uttam Kumaran: so, right.
651 01:07:29.730 ⇒ 01:07:30.240 Neil Oliver: It’s
652 01:07:31.210 ⇒ 01:07:33.689 Neil Oliver: I don’t think I missed the sales game.
653 01:07:35.720 ⇒ 01:07:38.080 Uttam Kumaran: I’m ready to just play closer
654 01:07:38.360 ⇒ 01:07:39.402 Uttam Kumaran: like that’s it.
655 01:07:41.430 ⇒ 01:07:42.810 Neil Oliver: Fucking best bet
656 01:07:46.430 ⇒ 01:07:47.550 Neil Oliver: right dude I.
657 01:07:47.550 ⇒ 01:07:48.290 Uttam Kumaran: See ya.
658 01:07:48.650 ⇒ 01:07:51.748 Uttam Kumaran: thank you for staying on for for a bit longer, and
659 01:07:52.050 ⇒ 01:07:56.150 Uttam Kumaran: you know again, every time I talk to you I learned so much and like
660 01:07:56.672 ⇒ 01:08:07.200 Uttam Kumaran: Roy, Neil has been like, really paramount, like a lot of the decisions I made about this business has come from sort of, you know, a few conversations, so it’s been tremendous as as usual, so.
661 01:08:07.530 ⇒ 01:08:08.800 Neil Oliver: Well, I don’t like.
662 01:08:09.170 ⇒ 01:08:12.450 Neil Oliver: I feel like I’m doing a service just being able to.
663 01:08:12.660 ⇒ 01:08:14.319 Uttam Kumaran: I owe you. No, I’ll I’ll.
664 01:08:14.320 ⇒ 01:08:15.019 Neil Oliver: You’re back on.
665 01:08:15.020 ⇒ 01:08:16.300 Uttam Kumaran: Dinner or something.
666 01:08:16.770 ⇒ 01:08:20.060 Neil Oliver: Of fire, because I didn’t know any.
667 01:08:20.060 ⇒ 01:08:20.850 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah. Shit.
668 01:08:21.080 ⇒ 01:08:23.232 Neil Oliver: And was thrown in.
669 01:08:23.810 ⇒ 01:08:27.196 Neil Oliver: and so yeah, it’s it’s been interesting.
670 01:08:27.680 ⇒ 01:08:28.839 Uttam Kumaran: I appreciate it.
671 01:08:29.170 ⇒ 01:08:39.010 Neil Oliver: And I just found out today, like I, she’s definitely not ready to announce anything. But Maurice is finally going out and doing her own database thing.
672 01:08:39.010 ⇒ 01:08:40.050 Uttam Kumaran: Great.
673 01:08:40.050 ⇒ 01:08:41.310 Neil Oliver: We’ll start answering.
674 01:08:41.319 ⇒ 01:08:42.299 Uttam Kumaran: Okay. Cool.
675 01:08:42.870 ⇒ 01:08:43.429 Neil Oliver: So that.
676 01:08:43.439 ⇒ 01:08:44.629 Uttam Kumaran: Hell, yeah.
677 01:08:44.630 ⇒ 01:08:45.290 Neil Oliver: I’m just happy.
678 01:08:45.290 ⇒ 01:08:49.229 Uttam Kumaran: Well, I hope that I hope that you guys hopefully can collaborate on something.
679 01:08:49.910 ⇒ 01:08:50.600 Neil Oliver: Yeah, we’re like.
680 01:08:50.600 ⇒ 01:08:52.060 Uttam Kumaran: I know you’re thinking about it.
681 01:08:52.310 ⇒ 01:09:06.549 Neil Oliver: I’m I’m a little sad, so like I sent her through the business proposal. Before I joined Sigma and I think she’s like using some of that which is like fine. But like I’m a little, I feel a little sad that I’m not part of it.
682 01:09:07.890 ⇒ 01:09:09.540 Neil Oliver: but also.
683 01:09:09.630 ⇒ 01:09:10.959 Neil Oliver: and just to read another.
684 01:09:10.960 ⇒ 01:09:11.590 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
685 01:09:12.229 ⇒ 01:09:17.819 Neil Oliver: I’m here, and my visa and everything else that I just couldn’t.
686 01:09:17.819 ⇒ 01:09:25.979 Uttam Kumaran: You’ll get, an you’ll get another go that you you ran as such a complicated thing that you’ll get another chance. I’m telling you to do something.
687 01:09:26.640 ⇒ 01:09:28.770 Neil Oliver: I do think that
688 01:09:28.939 ⇒ 01:09:34.420 Neil Oliver: whether it fails or not, like at some point, I have to go and do something myself like where.
689 01:09:34.420 ⇒ 01:09:35.420 Uttam Kumaran: Sure. Yeah.
690 01:09:35.420 ⇒ 01:09:45.901 Neil Oliver: It’s truly like mine, and and I’ve got autonomy with that. I do think that’s a missing piece. I’m learning so fucking much here though this is. This has been.
691 01:09:46.240 ⇒ 01:09:49.659 Uttam Kumaran: You went from. You went from teacher to then. GM,
692 01:09:49.779 ⇒ 01:09:58.669 Uttam Kumaran: or what? I don’t know what your role was. And then, now, yeah, you’re at Sigma. So yeah, you’re like, I don’t know what. I don’t even know what the next role is from there.
693 01:09:58.770 ⇒ 01:10:00.920 Uttam Kumaran: No, you’re just on the apps.
694 01:10:01.210 ⇒ 01:10:04.210 Neil Oliver: I need like.
695 01:10:04.220 ⇒ 01:10:09.660 Neil Oliver: this is good experience for startup. I need big company. So I want, like a Google.
696 01:10:10.240 ⇒ 01:10:13.449 Uttam Kumaran: Dude that’s gonna be so boring. You don’t need that.
697 01:10:14.700 ⇒ 01:10:15.530 Neil Oliver: I’ve just like.
698 01:10:15.530 ⇒ 01:10:21.900 Uttam Kumaran: You’re at a big company dude. You’re at a huge company. What are you talking about? You’re at, Sigma, you guys are made it.
699 01:10:22.970 ⇒ 01:10:25.200 Neil Oliver: We’re we’re doing okay. But
700 01:10:25.500 ⇒ 01:10:30.980 Neil Oliver: there was actually a job that come up at Netflix the other day, and I was like, Oh, God! But no.
701 01:10:31.405 ⇒ 01:10:31.780 Uttam Kumaran: Stop.
702 01:10:31.820 ⇒ 01:10:32.760 Neil Oliver: Yes,
703 01:10:33.890 ⇒ 01:10:38.950 Neil Oliver: like. I say, it’s I. I enjoy learning. I enjoy like working this out, and there’s a lot.
704 01:10:38.950 ⇒ 01:10:44.180 Uttam Kumaran: Learn the whole market man. I’m telling you like having being able to do that, and then put a business lens on this.
705 01:10:44.410 ⇒ 01:10:49.009 Uttam Kumaran: You can go like you can even go run another consultancy easily, man like
706 01:10:49.040 ⇒ 01:10:50.824 Uttam Kumaran: I I don’t know
707 01:10:52.380 ⇒ 01:10:52.920 Neil Oliver: There’s there’s.
708 01:10:52.920 ⇒ 01:10:53.750 Uttam Kumaran: A good bit.
709 01:10:54.410 ⇒ 01:10:54.959 Neil Oliver: That I’d.
710 01:10:54.960 ⇒ 01:10:55.770 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah. The.
711 01:10:55.770 ⇒ 01:10:58.610 Neil Oliver: Biggest piece I’m learning. Here is
712 01:10:59.020 ⇒ 01:11:01.719 Neil Oliver: way more to do with stakeholder management
713 01:11:01.760 ⇒ 01:11:04.539 Neil Oliver: than anything else like
714 01:11:04.970 ⇒ 01:11:07.149 Neil Oliver: it’s it’s a tough ride.
715 01:11:07.480 ⇒ 01:11:10.819 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, European. It’s pm, yes, brutal.
716 01:11:11.470 ⇒ 01:11:12.190 Uttam Kumaran: Yep.
717 01:11:12.780 ⇒ 01:11:14.010 Uttam Kumaran: cool guys.
718 01:11:14.010 ⇒ 01:11:15.604 Neil Oliver: That’s for another day, my friend.
719 01:11:15.870 ⇒ 01:11:23.040 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah. Well, thanks, thanks, Roy. Appreciate it. Thanks, Neil. Thanks for spending some time hopefully. Chat with you soon.
720 01:11:23.040 ⇒ 01:11:24.850 Neil Oliver: When? Yeah, when are you next in New York?
721 01:11:24.850 ⇒ 01:11:28.569 Uttam Kumaran: I don’t know, man, we gotta make some sales before I can
722 01:11:29.050 ⇒ 01:11:32.298 Uttam Kumaran: get over there, but dinner is on me as soon as I get there
723 01:11:32.540 ⇒ 01:11:33.155 Uttam Kumaran: and
724 01:11:33.790 ⇒ 01:11:43.780 Uttam Kumaran: that’s a promise I don’t know. Maybe this year, maybe next year it’s gonna depend on sales that’s always that I wake up thinking about sales. That’s the only thing I think I care about these days.
725 01:11:44.700 ⇒ 01:11:53.080 Neil Oliver: I guess the last piece that I’ll leave you, with which I I know we’ve spoken a bit about before, but it it’s been interesting to see it here as well
726 01:11:53.110 ⇒ 01:11:54.480 Neil Oliver: is.
727 01:11:54.700 ⇒ 01:12:01.659 Neil Oliver: I don’t actually know what the percentage is, but I would guess 90% of our revenue come from 10% of our clients
728 01:12:02.390 ⇒ 01:12:12.389 Neil Oliver: and remembering like, think whatever the number is in your head. But what I? Okay, what I thought was this, actually right?
729 01:12:12.840 ⇒ 01:12:18.610 Neil Oliver: What I thought was an expensive contract when I was at data culture when we were selling. Sigma
730 01:12:18.830 ⇒ 01:12:22.139 Neil Oliver: is 1% of what some of our other customers are paying.
731 01:12:22.700 ⇒ 01:12:23.580 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
732 01:12:23.580 ⇒ 01:12:24.640 Neil Oliver: That big.
733 01:12:25.130 ⇒ 01:12:25.840 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
734 01:12:27.020 ⇒ 01:12:28.760 Uttam Kumaran: yeah, I’m trying.
735 01:12:30.649 ⇒ 01:12:37.630 Uttam Kumaran: It’s hard. It’s that’s why I need like I need. This is where I need. Like, I want the to there be to push and pull like
736 01:12:37.680 ⇒ 01:13:05.769 Uttam Kumaran: Roy and the folks on the sales side. I want them to sell big. And then on the engineering side, we’re gonna pull. And there needs to be a middle ground right like. And that’s where I know too much to where I arrive somewhere in the middle. And that’s not good like, I want us to sell massive, and then we find how to how to do it. And I’m confident we can do anything that people ask for in data. So that’s why we’re building a great roster of amazing people. That’s what I’ve been really blessed with is just having great people.
737 01:13:05.800 ⇒ 01:13:06.940 Uttam Kumaran: and then
738 01:13:07.010 ⇒ 01:13:09.739 Uttam Kumaran: we’re starting to do sales and content seriously.
739 01:13:10.140 ⇒ 01:13:24.979 Neil Oliver: Don’t. Don’t stand in your in your own way for those big sales. Just go and sell it. Go and do something like you know we can we? We can do a haircut if you can pay XY and Z. Upfront. Use that money to go and get your engineers and and like dive in on it.
740 01:13:26.430 ⇒ 01:13:27.203 Neil Oliver: No risk.
741 01:13:28.230 ⇒ 01:13:29.970 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, yeah.
742 01:13:30.980 ⇒ 01:13:32.139 Neil Oliver: Right lovely to see you.
743 01:13:32.140 ⇒ 01:13:32.460 Uttam Kumaran: Okay.
744 01:13:32.460 ⇒ 01:13:34.440 Neil Oliver: Have a great evening, and I’ll see you soon.
745 01:13:34.680 ⇒ 01:13:36.510 Uttam Kumaran: Thanks so much. Bye.