Meeting Title: ABC Final Presentation Planning Date: 2026-01-26 Meeting participants: Uttam Kumaran, Amber Lin, Robert Tseng, Clarence Stone
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1 00:01:16.440 ⇒ 00:01:17.590 Amber Lin: Hello!
2 00:01:18.000 ⇒ 00:01:18.990 Amber Lin: Hello, bye.
3 00:01:39.950 ⇒ 00:01:41.240 Uttam Kumaran: Hello.
4 00:01:44.350 ⇒ 00:01:45.930 Amber Lin: What’s your option today?
5 00:01:47.700 ⇒ 00:01:49.680 Uttam Kumaran: Oh, me?
6 00:01:50.590 ⇒ 00:01:53.680 Uttam Kumaran: Today was… Okay.
7 00:01:54.060 ⇒ 00:01:56.250 Uttam Kumaran: I don’t think it was too bad,
8 00:01:57.010 ⇒ 00:02:00.980 Uttam Kumaran: I’m just like, it was good, I got to go to a bunch of meetings, I…
9 00:02:02.030 ⇒ 00:02:07.400 Uttam Kumaran: Sort of getting closer to trying to hit my goal of, like, less than 20 hours of meetings a week.
10 00:02:07.740 ⇒ 00:02:08.580 Amber Lin: Mmm.
11 00:02:08.580 ⇒ 00:02:10.660 Uttam Kumaran: I think I’m about 24, mostly.
12 00:02:10.660 ⇒ 00:02:11.450 Amber Lin: No size.
13 00:02:11.450 ⇒ 00:02:12.720 Uttam Kumaran: Probably most weeks.
14 00:02:12.970 ⇒ 00:02:16.050 Uttam Kumaran: Like, I was… I was kind of, like, 40.
15 00:02:16.830 ⇒ 00:02:17.150 Amber Lin: Wow.
16 00:02:17.600 ⇒ 00:02:20.080 Uttam Kumaran: Something like that.
17 00:02:20.220 ⇒ 00:02:27.089 Uttam Kumaran: But, it’s been good, and then… yeah, like, for Element, like.
18 00:02:27.610 ⇒ 00:02:29.729 Uttam Kumaran: They’re just very… they’re just sticklers.
19 00:02:31.380 ⇒ 00:02:33.810 Uttam Kumaran: They’re just sticklers on formatting, so I’m like…
20 00:02:34.430 ⇒ 00:02:37.310 Amber Lin: I see, and I think format takes the most time.
21 00:02:37.310 ⇒ 00:02:40.640 Uttam Kumaran: I’m like, yeah, and they’re formatting in Google Sheets, so I’m like.
22 00:02:41.440 ⇒ 00:02:46.450 Uttam Kumaran: alright, you’re paying for it, so just, like, doing conditional formatting, and I’m like…
23 00:02:46.710 ⇒ 00:02:54.289 Uttam Kumaran: trying… not trying just to do it, like, it’s so boring, and I’m… I’m such… I have to tweak now, and, like, I have to do, like, a bunch of things, so…
24 00:02:54.480 ⇒ 00:02:56.350 Uttam Kumaran: Just, like, been locked in here.
25 00:02:56.660 ⇒ 00:03:00.739 Uttam Kumaran: I’m in formatting… No, no single, like…
26 00:03:01.030 ⇒ 00:03:07.269 Uttam Kumaran: No, no decimal points, like, all the formatting guide. Just, like, trying to just…
27 00:03:07.390 ⇒ 00:03:12.270 Uttam Kumaran: Get that… get that done, so… What about you?
28 00:03:15.200 ⇒ 00:03:19.239 Amber Lin: I just got back from… Portland last night.
29 00:03:19.510 ⇒ 00:03:20.000 Uttam Kumaran: Nice.
30 00:03:20.000 ⇒ 00:03:24.340 Amber Lin: And I went on a one-day skiing day trip, and my whole.
31 00:03:24.340 ⇒ 00:03:24.820 Uttam Kumaran: Where?
32 00:03:24.820 ⇒ 00:03:31.649 Amber Lin: I feel so broken. In Portland, in, in… Mount Hood Meadows.
33 00:03:32.890 ⇒ 00:03:33.420 Uttam Kumaran: Nice.
34 00:03:33.530 ⇒ 00:03:48.530 Amber Lin: Yeah, I took a bus there, took a bus back. I fell so many times, like, my… I feel like my neck is… neck is pulled, because I fell so many times, and I got ran over by a kid, because she was too fast.
35 00:03:50.590 ⇒ 00:03:53.199 Uttam Kumaran: Was it your first time skiing, or you’ve skied before?
36 00:03:53.660 ⇒ 00:04:01.139 Amber Lin: I was snowboarding, but I haven’t snowboarded in, like, 2-3 years, so… I was not very good.
37 00:04:01.540 ⇒ 00:04:02.500 Uttam Kumaran: Okay.
38 00:04:04.670 ⇒ 00:04:09.749 Amber Lin: Barbara, are you heading back? When is your flight? I have a red eye tonight.
39 00:04:09.750 ⇒ 00:04:14.789 Robert Tseng: I’m in, I’m at a cafe right now with, with Luke, he’s across the…
40 00:04:15.040 ⇒ 00:04:20.100 Robert Tseng: the table for me, but I also don’t… I didn’t bring my headphones, so I’m…
41 00:04:20.470 ⇒ 00:04:23.219 Robert Tseng: If you hear background noise, it’s because I’m just letting.
42 00:04:23.220 ⇒ 00:04:29.619 Uttam Kumaran: No secrets! No trade secrets!
43 00:04:29.620 ⇒ 00:04:31.830 Robert Tseng: Yeah, no, no, don’t give away our items.
44 00:04:31.830 ⇒ 00:04:38.599 Uttam Kumaran: You think I’m worried about the background noise? I’m worried about giving away the sauce. It’s the secret sauce.
45 00:04:39.270 ⇒ 00:04:44.400 Robert Tseng: Oh, thank you. Okay. Yeah, my bad, I was like… Yeah.
46 00:04:45.910 ⇒ 00:04:47.240 Robert Tseng: Oh, thank you.
47 00:04:51.080 ⇒ 00:04:53.330 Robert Tseng: Whoa, haven’t used one of these in a while.
48 00:04:55.110 ⇒ 00:04:57.860 Uttam Kumaran: That’s my sauna… those are my sauna thighs.
49 00:04:57.860 ⇒ 00:04:58.710 Robert Tseng: Yeah.
50 00:05:04.010 ⇒ 00:05:09.089 Uttam Kumaran: Okay, so I can kind of guide us, I’m just gonna kind of get something…
51 00:05:09.360 ⇒ 00:05:12.910 Uttam Kumaran: get, like, a Markdown file going, but…
52 00:05:13.130 ⇒ 00:05:19.619 Uttam Kumaran: Basically, this call was really focused on just, like, the final… Kind of like…
53 00:05:20.430 ⇒ 00:05:23.109 Uttam Kumaran: Presentation that we want to do for…
54 00:05:23.320 ⇒ 00:05:29.009 Uttam Kumaran: ABC, and how we want to sort of structure our, like, final deliverable, I think…
55 00:05:29.320 ⇒ 00:05:38.780 Uttam Kumaran: I have some ideas on… on how we do this, but this is the first time we’ve sort of done a project like this here, and I do want to think about
56 00:05:39.270 ⇒ 00:05:43.639 Uttam Kumaran: Like, how we present, do that in, like, a reasonable amount of time.
57 00:05:43.780 ⇒ 00:05:47.309 Uttam Kumaran: And then also present, like, kind of a menu of options.
58 00:05:47.970 ⇒ 00:05:53.619 Uttam Kumaran: so, like, where’s a good place to start, Robert? Should I just, like…
59 00:05:54.680 ⇒ 00:06:01.449 Uttam Kumaran: I have a doc that’s… that maybe outlines, sort of, like, I brain-dumped a little bit about how I’m thinking about this, like.
60 00:06:01.610 ⇒ 00:06:06.480 Uttam Kumaran: Should we just go through, like, all the various things we can offer? Should we start with, like.
61 00:06:07.810 ⇒ 00:06:10.569 Uttam Kumaran: Pricing, or… yeah, I don’t know.
62 00:06:11.380 ⇒ 00:06:17.869 Robert Tseng: Yeah, well, I guess based on how your other calls have gone, like, how do you feel like you want to structure the meeting? Do you want to start with the…
63 00:06:18.250 ⇒ 00:06:26.510 Robert Tseng: like, you said you wanted to present, like, a menu to them, but I guess, like, you know, I kind of see this a couple different approaches. One is…
64 00:06:26.660 ⇒ 00:06:46.250 Robert Tseng: we have, like, the end… we start with the end, right, and then we work backwards. Like, it’s, like, just a snapshot of, like, this is the recommendation, these are all the things you should choose from, and then we have subsequent, like, slides that are kind of talking about each of the different parts. Or is it more of, like, you still feel like we need to do the storytelling, and we’re, like, kind of, like.
65 00:06:46.600 ⇒ 00:06:57.639 Robert Tseng: moving, like, I don’t know, we start with leading the… kind of recapping the marketing stuff that we looked into, and then also kind of all the… maybe you did… I don’t know, like, it… I guess I’m… I don’t really know how.
66 00:06:57.640 ⇒ 00:06:58.290 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, like…
67 00:06:58.290 ⇒ 00:06:58.950 Robert Tseng: I want to leave that, yeah.
68 00:06:58.950 ⇒ 00:07:04.179 Uttam Kumaran: My gut instinct is that we should… We should,
69 00:07:05.680 ⇒ 00:07:09.400 Uttam Kumaran: Basically, take the highlights from every deck.
70 00:07:10.000 ⇒ 00:07:12.080 Uttam Kumaran: And bring them up one level.
71 00:07:12.080 ⇒ 00:07:16.850 Robert Tseng: Okay. Because I’m going to be presenting, it’s going to be a CEO, CFO, head of sales.
72 00:07:16.860 ⇒ 00:07:20.589 Uttam Kumaran: Out of San Antonio, I’m gonna just see who else wants to be there.
73 00:07:21.550 ⇒ 00:07:37.219 Uttam Kumaran: So, I’d like to present, like, the best of from each of those slides. Yeah. Luckily, I know exactly what questions we weren’t able to answer in that first meeting in November, so ideally, it’s sort of like, we answer these.
74 00:07:37.780 ⇒ 00:07:41.419 Uttam Kumaran: And then I’d like to sort of go into…
75 00:07:41.620 ⇒ 00:07:44.709 Uttam Kumaran: How we solve it, and what the potential impact is.
76 00:07:45.160 ⇒ 00:07:45.690 Robert Tseng: Yep.
77 00:07:45.900 ⇒ 00:07:51.670 Uttam Kumaran: And then we go into our menu and pricing. It’s like what I’m… it’s like what I’m thinking about.
78 00:07:52.020 ⇒ 00:08:00.489 Uttam Kumaran: The one thing we’ve done well on this project, I think, was the sort of change I tried to make, which is we’ve made fans out of, like, everybody in the process.
79 00:08:00.620 ⇒ 00:08:07.620 Uttam Kumaran: So, everything from, like, their external consultants, to their head of IT, head of the CRM,
80 00:08:07.930 ⇒ 00:08:11.430 Uttam Kumaran: everybody, basically, apart from the CEO, is like.
81 00:08:12.120 ⇒ 00:08:15.349 Uttam Kumaran: Really positive about the work and what they’ve seen.
82 00:08:15.530 ⇒ 00:08:19.290 Uttam Kumaran: So, in that sense, it’s not as much of, like, convincing…
83 00:08:19.290 ⇒ 00:08:20.889 Robert Tseng: Why does it accept the CEO?
84 00:08:21.240 ⇒ 00:08:22.569 Uttam Kumaran: Well, we just haven’t talked to them, like.
85 00:08:22.570 ⇒ 00:08:23.269 Robert Tseng: Oh, I see, I see.
86 00:08:23.270 ⇒ 00:08:36.139 Uttam Kumaran: We’re not presenting regular to him. I mean, yeah. Meaning, like, I’m sure… I think he’s hearing from everybody that we’re doing well, but I feel like we have fans out of everybody. So, one is, like, I’m just trying to induce a couple of good conversations.
87 00:08:36.240 ⇒ 00:08:43.260 Uttam Kumaran: I also want to talk about what this whole process was like for us to even put this shit together, and then I want to…
88 00:08:43.770 ⇒ 00:08:49.980 Uttam Kumaran: basically start to enumerate the ROI on several, maybe, key initiatives.
89 00:08:49.980 ⇒ 00:08:50.520 Robert Tseng: Yep.
90 00:08:50.730 ⇒ 00:08:52.679 Uttam Kumaran: And this is where I’m sort of fuzzy on, like.
91 00:08:53.170 ⇒ 00:08:56.330 Uttam Kumaran: Okay, does that help, like, basically build hype for, like.
92 00:08:56.580 ⇒ 00:08:59.800 Uttam Kumaran: Okay, we went through all the shit that’s wrong, but here’s immediately, like.
93 00:09:00.250 ⇒ 00:09:02.839 Uttam Kumaran: How… how we can solve them.
94 00:09:03.070 ⇒ 00:09:08.060 Uttam Kumaran: sort of almost like the slide you put in front of Element, which is, like, the different phases.
95 00:09:08.070 ⇒ 00:09:13.209 Robert Tseng: I think we finally put together a menu of options, and we just try to, like.
96 00:09:14.660 ⇒ 00:09:17.010 Uttam Kumaran: kind of, like, I would… I just wanna…
97 00:09:17.480 ⇒ 00:09:26.299 Uttam Kumaran: yeah, almost, like, see that, so then I can understand, like, where potential objections could come from. But, like, that’s sort of what I’m thinking for this final presentation.
98 00:09:26.300 ⇒ 00:09:30.400 Robert Tseng: Do you feel like they’re still anchored to the first questions that you had in November?
99 00:09:30.690 ⇒ 00:09:32.590 Robert Tseng: Because I think, like… yeah.
100 00:09:32.590 ⇒ 00:09:34.230 Uttam Kumaran: Not really.
101 00:09:34.340 ⇒ 00:09:42.529 Uttam Kumaran: But, like, for example, there are some things that, just like any company, they’re always, like, asking, like, oh, we have this hunch, we have this hunch.
102 00:09:42.530 ⇒ 00:09:43.470 Robert Tseng: We’ve, like…
103 00:09:43.630 ⇒ 00:09:48.020 Uttam Kumaran: solve some of those hunches, right? So I just want to bring those up.
104 00:09:48.020 ⇒ 00:09:49.080 Robert Tseng: Okay.
105 00:09:49.720 ⇒ 00:09:50.910 Uttam Kumaran: And…
106 00:09:51.050 ⇒ 00:10:00.049 Uttam Kumaran: basically be like, cool, we have the answers to, like, all of those core questions we asked, and then I want to sort of… I want to basically show them
107 00:10:00.650 ⇒ 00:10:05.979 Uttam Kumaran: Here’s where you are today, here’s where, with these next series of fixes, you can be.
108 00:10:06.500 ⇒ 00:10:07.050 Robert Tseng: Yeah.
109 00:10:07.750 ⇒ 00:10:15.960 Uttam Kumaran: And ideally, almost get them to the same point, like, last time, where, like, dude, halfway into that… into that presentation last time, they were like, where do we sign?
110 00:10:16.490 ⇒ 00:10:17.830 Uttam Kumaran: Like, let’s start.
111 00:10:18.540 ⇒ 00:10:22.450 Uttam Kumaran: Okay. I’m kind of hopeful that this gets us to there.
112 00:10:23.130 ⇒ 00:10:24.170 Robert Tseng: Yeah, I guess…
113 00:10:24.170 ⇒ 00:10:28.860 Uttam Kumaran: I want most of the conversation to be about what’s next, what to do.
114 00:10:28.860 ⇒ 00:10:29.380 Robert Tseng: Yeah.
115 00:10:29.560 ⇒ 00:10:31.829 Uttam Kumaran: I don’t wanna, like, have to have that at the end, like…
116 00:10:31.830 ⇒ 00:10:32.390 Robert Tseng: Okay.
117 00:10:33.120 ⇒ 00:10:36.259 Uttam Kumaran: Because he’s the CEO, like, he’s… I don’t think he’s gonna be, like.
118 00:10:36.400 ⇒ 00:10:40.799 Uttam Kumaran: he’s gonna be like, you guys clearly crushed it. You’re deep in the business.
119 00:10:41.080 ⇒ 00:10:44.730 Uttam Kumaran: you, like, what’s next? Like, what do you think? Yeah.
120 00:10:46.090 ⇒ 00:10:46.660 Robert Tseng: Okay.
121 00:10:47.270 ⇒ 00:10:51.590 Robert Tseng: Yeah, I mean, a couple thoughts. I like that structure, kind of, of the…
122 00:10:52.770 ⇒ 00:10:54.670 Robert Tseng: Whether you just kind of…
123 00:10:54.780 ⇒ 00:11:03.540 Robert Tseng: highlighting, like, the questions that we did go and solve, like, answer. Like, I think that’s… that’s a good way to, kind of, to kick off the conversation. I think…
124 00:11:03.710 ⇒ 00:11:15.960 Robert Tseng: if there were any questions that were left unanswered, I don’t even think we’d need to bring them up. I think that’s just a distraction. Like I said, we don’t want to spend too much time recapping, kind of, what their state of mind was back in November. So I think just, like, really starting with
125 00:11:16.650 ⇒ 00:11:30.149 Robert Tseng: yeah, what their hunch was, what we actually discovered, kind of making that part clear. And then the opportunity sizing piece, I think, is going to be great, if we can actually put, like, dollar estimates to each of these things, so that we can
126 00:11:30.570 ⇒ 00:11:42.449 Robert Tseng: Yeah, that helps us to prioritize when we’re teeing up, like, the recommendations. Yeah, we wanted… we wanted to let them know, like, what… what impact they can expect, and then I think… and then the menu for the… to… at the end, I think that… that makes sense.
127 00:11:44.210 ⇒ 00:11:48.510 Uttam Kumaran: I don’t know, Clarence, do you have any thoughts on, like, the format before maybe we jump into, like.
128 00:11:49.370 ⇒ 00:11:50.600 Uttam Kumaran: Specifics?
129 00:11:51.660 ⇒ 00:11:59.650 Clarence Stone: I think your approach to directly answering the questions will be perfect, but, like, I think… In the C-suite.
130 00:12:00.280 ⇒ 00:12:03.149 Clarence Stone: I would want a pretty direct answer on
131 00:12:03.310 ⇒ 00:12:16.920 Clarence Stone: like, not just the menu, but the now, next, and future, right? It could be like, hey, you have to sort out your entire Google GA tagging and cataloging right now, because we can’t even, like, tie services to your sales.
132 00:12:17.020 ⇒ 00:12:19.209 Clarence Stone: Right? That’s a now thing.
133 00:12:19.210 ⇒ 00:12:37.269 Clarence Stone: Right. Next is like, hey, we need to take a look at that data and formulate better ways to retain existing clients, or X, Y, and Z for a ROI, expected ROI, compared to the market as a 20% increase in retaining, you know, existing customers, something like that, right? And then, the future is.
134 00:12:37.270 ⇒ 00:12:46.159 Clarence Stone: Now that, like, if you brought everything from the now and next section, what is it that sits in the future that you can actually, you know, go for?
135 00:12:46.160 ⇒ 00:13:03.969 Clarence Stone: Right? That’s stuff that, you know, I want them to look at as, you know, the Ferrari on the side of their bedroom, going like, I’m gonna own that one day, right? Like, every day that they work with you guys, on the now and next, they are working towards that future over there.
136 00:13:03.970 ⇒ 00:13:21.540 Clarence Stone: Right, and hopefully that’s a hook into a purchase of the entire damn thing, you know, knowing that that’s where we’re headed. Because it’s not just saying, hey, I understand your problems, but I’ve broken it down, the things that you need to do right now, and this is in the long tail, this is, you know, the results that you can expect.
137 00:13:21.540 ⇒ 00:13:22.110 Robert Tseng: it.
138 00:13:22.280 ⇒ 00:13:24.390 Robert Tseng: Enjoying, like, the day of going out.
139 00:13:24.390 ⇒ 00:13:24.960 Uttam Kumaran: Okay.
140 00:13:25.140 ⇒ 00:13:27.770 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I think now, next, future is great.
141 00:13:27.890 ⇒ 00:13:28.820 Robert Tseng: Yep.
142 00:13:30.680 ⇒ 00:13:36.189 Uttam Kumaran: Okay, then let me just throw a couple something into a doc, and then we can all kind of, like.
143 00:13:36.190 ⇒ 00:13:46.440 Clarence Stone: Yeah, and I think, like, if we broke it down that way, you guys, like, off the top of your heads, just from the conversations we’ve had, like, can come up with things that they can do right away.
144 00:13:46.610 ⇒ 00:13:49.159 Clarence Stone: Right. There’s so much they can do right away.
145 00:13:49.160 ⇒ 00:13:49.910 Uttam Kumaran: Yes.
146 00:13:50.880 ⇒ 00:13:51.260 Robert Tseng: do that.
147 00:13:51.260 ⇒ 00:13:57.359 Clarence Stone: But I also don’t want you guys to lose out on the opportunity to sell the bigger items that come in the future.
148 00:13:58.440 ⇒ 00:14:02.609 Clarence Stone: Like, being able to give them direction on how they conduct their e-commerce strategy.
149 00:14:02.610 ⇒ 00:14:03.950 Robert Tseng: Yeah, that’s what I’m sure.
150 00:14:04.600 ⇒ 00:14:06.009 Robert Tseng: You’re gonna have a teeth on me?
151 00:14:06.010 ⇒ 00:14:06.640 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
152 00:14:06.640 ⇒ 00:14:07.780 Robert Tseng: GC, yeah.
153 00:14:08.570 ⇒ 00:14:11.000 Robert Tseng: Any… Okay.
154 00:14:11.000 ⇒ 00:14:21.670 Uttam Kumaran: maybe let’s, while I’m just getting this, I’m just gonna get a doc together in the menu. Can we talk, like, a little bit about how we’re gonna do pricing? And maybe, I think, like.
155 00:14:21.990 ⇒ 00:14:33.460 Uttam Kumaran: I think we’ve sort of circled around this before, like, Clarence briefed me on, like, look, there’s potential for us to do either project-based, or be like, hey, you have X amount per month.
156 00:14:33.660 ⇒ 00:14:39.710 Uttam Kumaran: figure out what you can do with that. I think, Robert, we’ve also talked about our holy grail, which is, like.
157 00:14:40.000 ⇒ 00:14:44.569 Uttam Kumaran: we’re gonna get you from X growth to Y growth, and we want a piece of that.
158 00:14:44.570 ⇒ 00:14:46.040 Robert Tseng: I called Cutter.
159 00:14:46.040 ⇒ 00:15:01.030 Uttam Kumaran: And he was like, bro, like, we’re gonna… he’s like, we can really rip this, because they’re about to shrink. Their business is on track to shrink this year, and there… there’s a lot of, like, really clear opportunity that he’s seen in the marketing side to, like, impact growth.
160 00:15:01.350 ⇒ 00:15:02.600 Uttam Kumaran: So, I do want to…
161 00:15:02.600 ⇒ 00:15:07.269 Robert Tseng: I think he’ll want to price it by performance, that’s how he makes money, so, like, yeah.
162 00:15:08.150 ⇒ 00:15:10.200 Uttam Kumaran: So that’s why I’m, like, interested in…
163 00:15:11.130 ⇒ 00:15:17.010 Uttam Kumaran: And how we want to do this. I think we want to put together some options, but…
164 00:15:17.730 ⇒ 00:15:33.180 Uttam Kumaran: like, to… really, ABC is the first client in which I’ve ever put together, even our AI thing is on a usage basis. It’s like, if we hit these usages, and we actually… I’ve primed them to, like, hey, this is how we kind of do work, because if you want to think about it like that.
165 00:15:33.290 ⇒ 00:15:40.469 Uttam Kumaran: So, I’m interested to talk… maybe we… let’s start by talking about the most complicated one, which is this, like, performance
166 00:15:40.990 ⇒ 00:15:46.320 Uttam Kumaran: basis, and then we can kind of work towards project, which is, I think, the more standard.
167 00:15:46.680 ⇒ 00:15:47.270 Robert Tseng: Yeah.
168 00:15:50.690 ⇒ 00:15:59.799 Uttam Kumaran: So, I don’t know, do you want to go and, like, maybe we can talk about it, or I don’t know, Clarence, have you seen examples of people pricing in sort of a performance basis? Like… Yep. Okay.
169 00:16:01.220 ⇒ 00:16:13.870 Clarence Stone: there’s a, like, outcome-based pricing model that’s become really prevalent in mid-tiers. I think it works really well if you have a great partnership with your client.
170 00:16:14.010 ⇒ 00:16:22.719 Clarence Stone: the challenge is that you can’t always tie something to an outcome, right? Like, there’s too many outcomes sometimes. For example, like, cleaning up GA.
171 00:16:23.120 ⇒ 00:16:35.290 Clarence Stone: Right? Like, hey, we need an accurate read of what’s happening on your websites in order to actually conduct anything else. Like, that needs to be fixed price, unless you guys can think of a way to tie it to some sort of performance.
172 00:16:35.520 ⇒ 00:16:46.079 Clarence Stone: So, I think that’s where it gets a little challenging. Some things are just things we have to do, and I don’t want that to end up being built into this broader pricing. Like, I want you guys to be billing for that.
173 00:16:47.660 ⇒ 00:16:49.290 Uttam Kumaran: Hmm, okay.
174 00:16:49.440 ⇒ 00:17:05.539 Clarence Stone: Right? Because if we just say it’s only about outcome, then, like, dude, cleaning up all their data, like, you should be paid for that. That’s stuff that’s gonna have to be done and needs to be done, right? And they’re gonna pay somebody else to do it anyway, regardless whether or not, like, their campaigns are successful, marketing… targeting the right
175 00:17:06.020 ⇒ 00:17:07.599 Clarence Stone: Festival, things like that.
176 00:17:09.180 ⇒ 00:17:09.950 Uttam Kumaran: Okay.
177 00:17:09.950 ⇒ 00:17:14.020 Clarence Stone: Right, that’s… so I think, if you were to… to ask me, then, like.
178 00:17:14.530 ⇒ 00:17:16.999 Clarence Stone: The things you have to do right now.
179 00:17:17.109 ⇒ 00:17:27.299 Clarence Stone: Right? Are absolutely going to be projects, because those are the ramps that allow you to actually get to a project that, you know, has some sort of metric behind it.
180 00:17:31.220 ⇒ 00:17:31.860 Uttam Kumaran: Okay.
181 00:17:32.910 ⇒ 00:17:36.870 Clarence Stone: Right? Like, let’s say you want to help ABC with, with, you know.
182 00:17:37.450 ⇒ 00:17:57.389 Clarence Stone: retaining, you know, their client base in Austin, right? Having, I don’t know, a 99% retention rate, right? Well, you can’t even get there because we don’t even have, like, a clear set of data to even know exactly who left, so that we can make a measurable impact on that behavior from the user.
183 00:17:57.390 ⇒ 00:17:57.840 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
184 00:17:57.840 ⇒ 00:17:58.920 Clarence Stone: Data’s not there.
185 00:17:59.670 ⇒ 00:18:03.470 Clarence Stone: So they should… they should pay per project for that data work, in my mind.
186 00:18:03.890 ⇒ 00:18:04.550 Uttam Kumaran: Okay.
187 00:18:04.870 ⇒ 00:18:09.549 Clarence Stone: I don’t know what your take is, Robert. And that’s my biggest challenge with this value-based pricing thing.
188 00:18:10.960 ⇒ 00:18:23.560 Robert Tseng: Yeah, so I think, like, the base fee, which is just, like, the fixed price, I think, I agree, should be project-based, and what should fall under that, yeah, tagging, tracking, setup, all, you know, just, like, the core engineering work should be, should be, should be fixed.
189 00:18:24.580 ⇒ 00:18:42.570 Robert Tseng: And then, like, I think the very old piece is, like, when you have someone like Cutter, who’s, like, you give him an outcome, yeah, he’s going… he has to… he has to lower CAC, he has to increase RAS, whatever it is, then you can tie… then, like, that… that’s typically how performance market agencies bill anyway. So, like, then it’s, like.
190 00:18:42.870 ⇒ 00:18:51.009 Robert Tseng: 3% to 5% of incremental revenue in this particular channel over X period of time. Like, then we start to layer that in.
191 00:18:51.190 ⇒ 00:18:53.750 Robert Tseng: So… and I also feel like that’s…
192 00:18:53.940 ⇒ 00:18:59.130 Robert Tseng: you know, I just… I’m drawing parallels with, like, Eden right now.
193 00:18:59.920 ⇒ 00:19:18.199 Robert Tseng: with, like, Eden, we got to a place where we’re not really building net new things anymore. Like, everything we’re doing is, like, to get, like, an incremental lift. Like, we’re trying to drive adoption, get them to use our… what we’ve built them to actually achieve better outcomes. I mean, at this point, we should have moved to a performance-based,
194 00:19:18.200 ⇒ 00:19:30.630 Robert Tseng: pricing model, and yeah, and I think it’s… it… why? It’s not just so that we can have better upside, but if you just look at the work on the maintenance of the systems, it’s quite, like, up and down, like…
195 00:19:30.770 ⇒ 00:19:38.470 Robert Tseng: It’s not, like, a consistent sprint that we’re doing just to go after… to set something up, but,
196 00:19:38.800 ⇒ 00:19:40.439 Robert Tseng: Yeah, like, we’re…
197 00:19:40.520 ⇒ 00:19:56.249 Robert Tseng: when we’re… when we have… you know you’re ready to go for an outcome when there isn’t, like, a specific thing that you need to build to unlock some sort of capability, and you’re given just more of an open-ended, like, goal to… to… to hit. So, I feel like we crossed that point with… with Eden, and, like, it’s just kind of…
198 00:19:56.250 ⇒ 00:20:13.469 Robert Tseng: sucky, because, like, we don’t have people on… on staff that can actually hit those outcomes yet. But, like, yeah, I feel like we should… we should… as I’m applying that to ABC, like, we have to anticipate that there is going to be this build phase, like, one to three months, we’re just gonna be building… building shit, and then…
199 00:20:13.470 ⇒ 00:20:21.449 Robert Tseng: like, after that, it’s gonna switch over to… we will need someone like Hunter who’s gonna be able to actually drive down, like, the…
200 00:20:21.450 ⇒ 00:20:21.810 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
201 00:20:21.810 ⇒ 00:20:26.339 Robert Tseng: drive down CAC or whatever. So, that’s… that’s what I… that’s what I think.
202 00:20:31.810 ⇒ 00:20:37.140 Uttam Kumaran: And then when do you think, like, let’s take Eden, for example, like, when do you think we should have made that change?
203 00:20:37.900 ⇒ 00:20:42.790 Uttam Kumaran: like, do you think we should have started the project that way? We should have started the project, like.
204 00:20:42.960 ⇒ 00:20:44.490 Uttam Kumaran: 50-50…
205 00:20:44.640 ⇒ 00:20:50.630 Robert Tseng: We should have done it in Q3, yeah. Like, after the… after we did the segment customer I.O, like.
206 00:20:50.740 ⇒ 00:20:53.850 Robert Tseng: replatform, like, after Henry’s first project.
207 00:20:53.900 ⇒ 00:20:55.570 Uttam Kumaran: We should’ve, we should’ve switched.
208 00:20:57.130 ⇒ 00:20:57.940 Robert Tseng: After that…
209 00:20:57.940 ⇒ 00:21:02.669 Uttam Kumaran: I don’t think it would have been a clean, complete switch, or you would have been, like, X amount to.
210 00:21:02.670 ⇒ 00:21:03.710 Robert Tseng: No, yeah, still, still retail.
211 00:21:03.710 ⇒ 00:21:04.090 Uttam Kumaran: table.
212 00:21:04.090 ⇒ 00:21:15.059 Robert Tseng: Yeah, like a… like a low… it could be a lower retainer or whatever, but, like, higher… higher variable, and then that would have incentivized us to go get somebody who could actually go and push… push those objectives.
213 00:21:18.050 ⇒ 00:21:18.720 Uttam Kumaran: Okay.
214 00:21:24.380 ⇒ 00:21:29.670 Uttam Kumaran: So, in this situation, I think we have… yeah, we do have situations of both. Like, for example.
215 00:21:30.050 ⇒ 00:21:45.119 Uttam Kumaran: they don’t have, like, a basic data warehouse set up. They can’t report on these metrics. Like, so there’s probably a price for, kind of, the engineering work, but there also is, like, work that Cutter can immediately start doing.
216 00:21:45.120 ⇒ 00:21:45.620 Robert Tseng: Yeah.
217 00:21:45.620 ⇒ 00:21:48.570 Uttam Kumaran: You know, on, like, on, like, basically…
218 00:21:48.700 ⇒ 00:21:54.979 Uttam Kumaran: building out and executing an AEO strategy, like, optimizing, like.
219 00:21:55.140 ⇒ 00:22:00.280 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, just, like, doing stuff on making sure that organic search volume grows up.
220 00:22:00.420 ⇒ 00:22:00.810 Robert Tseng: Yeah.
221 00:22:00.810 ⇒ 00:22:01.630 Uttam Kumaran: So, like.
222 00:22:04.700 ⇒ 00:22:10.509 Uttam Kumaran: Should we just basically… I guess it’s like…
223 00:22:10.510 ⇒ 00:22:14.849 Robert Tseng: example, for organic search volume. If we could, we could, if we could,
224 00:22:15.410 ⇒ 00:22:28.460 Robert Tseng: I mean, if we could opportunity size, like, what, like, a 5% lift in organic search traffic was going to bring them in terms of revenue, then we could easily tie that to a performance-based thing. But, like, I think organic is the hardest to measure, so…
225 00:22:28.510 ⇒ 00:22:42.250 Robert Tseng: Like, if it was, like, just… they were asking him to lower, like, to increase their ROAS on a particular service line that they just launched their new market, that would be an easier one to go out to price out now.
226 00:22:42.250 ⇒ 00:22:51.020 Robert Tseng: Like, I think just this is a lot cleaner to look at. You can look at the… you can look at the… you can… you can do a comp with, like, another market that they’re in, so let’s say…
227 00:22:51.020 ⇒ 00:23:08.690 Robert Tseng: they’re trying to launch Service A in San Antonio, but, like, they have that. It’s a pretty mature service line in Austin already, and we know what the ROAS is in Austin, then we can just be like, if you… if you get it, if you… if we get San Antonio to come something close to Austin, then, like, yeah, that… or whatever, like, it’s just easier to draw that, to… to draw that,
228 00:23:09.500 ⇒ 00:23:11.430 Robert Tseng: Ultimate connection, yeah.
229 00:23:11.990 ⇒ 00:23:17.659 Robert Tseng: But, like, organic search by itself is a hard project to, I think, price.
230 00:23:18.690 ⇒ 00:23:20.999 Uttam Kumaran: But we do know the conversion rates.
231 00:23:21.240 ⇒ 00:23:22.010 Uttam Kumaran: So, like…
232 00:23:22.010 ⇒ 00:23:25.740 Robert Tseng: Okay, yeah, then… yeah, I mean, I don’t know if it changes with,
233 00:23:26.930 ⇒ 00:23:32.850 Robert Tseng: From organic traffic. But yeah, we should… we should… I think there’s… I can… I can envision a slide for that.
234 00:23:35.810 ⇒ 00:23:50.170 Uttam Kumaran: So the slide would be… the… The, like… goal… And then… current… It’d be, like, improve…
235 00:23:51.120 ⇒ 00:23:53.060 Uttam Kumaran: organic search volume.
236 00:23:55.090 ⇒ 00:24:05.879 Uttam Kumaran: or, like, improved number of… of… yeah, something is a goal description, it’s the KPI, it’s the current, and it’s the goal, and then it’s, like, our price, how we price.
237 00:24:06.010 ⇒ 00:24:10.100 Robert Tseng: Yeah. Let me, let me just make that slide. I think it could be a good template, and then we.
238 00:24:10.100 ⇒ 00:24:10.510 Uttam Kumaran: Okay.
239 00:24:10.510 ⇒ 00:24:12.550 Robert Tseng: I can try to plug in the numbers for that, yeah.
240 00:24:13.370 ⇒ 00:24:18.159 Uttam Kumaran: So, like, let me even give you a couple more examples, because I just, like, tossed this all together right now, so…
241 00:24:18.760 ⇒ 00:24:25.040 Uttam Kumaran: And the other thing I’ll mention is, like, this has been maybe the most… End to end…
242 00:24:25.190 ⇒ 00:24:27.039 Uttam Kumaran: AI, a project?
243 00:24:27.270 ⇒ 00:24:33.909 Uttam Kumaran: like, AI meaning, AI was involved in almost every single step of the way. Yeah.
244 00:24:34.430 ⇒ 00:24:36.759 Uttam Kumaran: I’ve recorded every single meeting.
245 00:24:37.200 ⇒ 00:24:42.529 Uttam Kumaran: we’ve used AI to help us do some of the analysis, all the decks are here, and so…
246 00:24:43.310 ⇒ 00:24:48.539 Uttam Kumaran: like, I just want us to… we’ve done quite a substantial amount of work with very, very…
247 00:24:48.770 ⇒ 00:24:55.050 Uttam Kumaran: We’re just, like, leveraging a lot of new AI system, which has been really, really awesome. Yeah.
248 00:24:55.430 ⇒ 00:24:57.469 Uttam Kumaran: So, in here, you’re gonna see, like.
249 00:24:58.170 ⇒ 00:25:09.009 Uttam Kumaran: sort of, like, what are the kind of core findings, and we can kind of tweak these as we need. Some quotes from each of the people, which is great.
250 00:25:09.490 ⇒ 00:25:15.279 Uttam Kumaran: like, tons and tons of, like, really awesome nuggets here.
251 00:25:15.790 ⇒ 00:25:18.209 Uttam Kumaran: We have this sort of recap of the top.
252 00:25:18.960 ⇒ 00:25:27.010 Uttam Kumaran: the questions, where are leads coming from? Why is growth stagnating? What’s working in our marketing mix? Where are customers dropping off?
253 00:25:27.590 ⇒ 00:25:32.889 Uttam Kumaran: these are the things that, like, they… these are the questions that they literally had in that meeting that I just want to be like.
254 00:25:33.150 ⇒ 00:25:37.179 Uttam Kumaran: We talked 2 months ago. Here are the answers to a lot of those questions.
255 00:25:37.340 ⇒ 00:25:52.990 Uttam Kumaran: And then it’s like, I kind of described to them, and I don’t know, I just sort of pulled this out of my ass, but I was like, I think it’s helpful to think about things as, like, basically, like, high effort, high reward, low effort, high reward.
256 00:25:52.990 ⇒ 00:25:54.170 Robert Tseng: Yeah. And…
257 00:25:54.180 ⇒ 00:26:04.330 Uttam Kumaran: we’re gonna see things in all of these, and ideally we start in this quadrant, and then we move immediately to this quadrant. And, like, we sort of bounce here until we run out.
258 00:26:04.440 ⇒ 00:26:22.550 Uttam Kumaran: And so I am gonna show things that are on high effort, low reward, low effort, low reward, but in an effort to basically DQ them. And so on here, you’re gonna see, like, there’s things like, yeah, fixing GA tracking, there’s a bunch of SEO fixes, there’s tons of bot traffic that’s in there, like…
259 00:26:22.740 ⇒ 00:26:25.139 Uttam Kumaran: We showed a slide, and it was like.
260 00:26:25.360 ⇒ 00:26:36.940 Uttam Kumaran: Zoran was like, can anyone name what country this was from? They’re like, what? He’s like, it’s from China. And I think Clarence was like, were you aware of where that place was? I don’t know what the city was.
261 00:26:37.120 ⇒ 00:26:46.950 Uttam Kumaran: But they were like, what the fuck? And they were like, yeah, you’re getting a bunch of shit from, like, Singapore, and bought farms from, like, random places. So, there’s a lot of that.
262 00:26:47.170 ⇒ 00:26:49.630 Uttam Kumaran: And then this is where this is all Cutter’s world, like…
263 00:26:49.770 ⇒ 00:26:55.699 Uttam Kumaran: doing this thing, probably doing this thing, doing digital ads, right?
264 00:26:56.250 ⇒ 00:27:08.940 Uttam Kumaran: And then this is more on, like, the revenue optimization side. This is frankly, like, more on us just getting all the people who are in charge better reporting, and helping them be like, push this, push this, push this.
265 00:27:09.290 ⇒ 00:27:11.690 Uttam Kumaran: So there’s probably a lot less, like.
266 00:27:12.140 ⇒ 00:27:15.500 Uttam Kumaran: I mean, some of these are… Possible, but, like.
267 00:27:15.630 ⇒ 00:27:19.200 Uttam Kumaran: this is honestly most of it. Like, if we just get them this, they can start to…
268 00:27:19.750 ⇒ 00:27:26.340 Uttam Kumaran: make more decisions. On the commercial side, there’s literally been nothing done. So…
269 00:27:26.710 ⇒ 00:27:33.150 Uttam Kumaran: this is also kind of a cutter thing. I basically be like, yo, your job is to establish Marketing.
270 00:27:33.400 ⇒ 00:27:35.609 Uttam Kumaran: For the commercial side of the business.
271 00:27:35.790 ⇒ 00:27:36.140 Robert Tseng: Yeah.
272 00:27:36.140 ⇒ 00:27:37.939 Uttam Kumaran: I wish they don’t have anything, so…
273 00:27:38.990 ⇒ 00:27:44.390 Uttam Kumaran: that’s, like, kind of, like, all that wrapped, and then on retention and churn, this is the usual, right? This is just, like…
274 00:27:45.070 ⇒ 00:27:49.780 Uttam Kumaran: the usual retention place to run. Also, like, maybe a cutter thing, I don’t know.
275 00:27:50.040 ⇒ 00:27:59.040 Uttam Kumaran: So… Yeah, like, again, this is all, like, AI, but, like, maybe it’s something like this, like…
276 00:27:59.490 ⇒ 00:28:06.060 Uttam Kumaran: It’s sort of like, what can we do now? And maybe the things we add to this are… like…
277 00:28:06.230 ⇒ 00:28:08.089 Uttam Kumaran: what is the KPI?
278 00:28:08.490 ⇒ 00:28:09.700 Uttam Kumaran: And…
279 00:28:10.870 ⇒ 00:28:22.119 Uttam Kumaran: what is the… well, basically, we split it up. What is project-based? What’s gonna be upside-based? And then for the upside-based, we put in, like, what are we gonna try to track towards?
280 00:28:29.340 ⇒ 00:28:30.699 Uttam Kumaran: Does that seem about right?
281 00:28:33.310 ⇒ 00:28:35.160 Robert Tseng: Yeah, I’m trying to think about, like.
282 00:28:38.580 ⇒ 00:28:42.660 Robert Tseng: where… well, so, I mean, if I were to kind of just, like, phase this out, like.
283 00:28:42.980 ⇒ 00:28:48.080 Robert Tseng: you know, if we’re… I don’t know if we’re gonna say one… basically, the first 1-3 months, I feel like, should just be…
284 00:28:48.870 ⇒ 00:28:50.599 Robert Tseng: like, pro- project base.
285 00:28:52.270 ⇒ 00:29:02.890 Robert Tseng: I mean, you’re saying that we could do some immediate things, but, like, SEO, GEO, like, AEO kind of work, the ROI is not going to be immediate. It’s still going to take 30 days. So, it’s like…
286 00:29:02.950 ⇒ 00:29:15.490 Robert Tseng: after the first 30 days, then the second month, then these performance things kind of kick in, right? So, like, that gives us some, like, ramp-up time, so we can build the things that we need, and also for the efforts that he’s… that… that, like, Cutter would…
287 00:29:15.490 ⇒ 00:29:16.809 Uttam Kumaran: I’m gonna need 3 months, at least.
288 00:29:16.810 ⇒ 00:29:17.230 Robert Tseng: Yeah.
289 00:29:17.230 ⇒ 00:29:17.950 Uttam Kumaran: Prove, yeah.
290 00:29:17.950 ⇒ 00:29:23.369 Robert Tseng: at least, I mean, at least, at least a month to three months out, yeah.
291 00:29:24.090 ⇒ 00:29:26.160 Robert Tseng: So yeah, I think that, that, that could work.
292 00:29:28.400 ⇒ 00:29:28.950 Uttam Kumaran: Okay.
293 00:29:30.250 ⇒ 00:29:34.399 Robert Tseng: But the point is, like, they’re signing, like, a year-long contract with us, right? And…
294 00:29:34.650 ⇒ 00:29:37.540 Robert Tseng: They’re gonna probably sign, like.
295 00:29:37.540 ⇒ 00:29:39.970 Uttam Kumaran: I’ll probably have them just sign an MSA.
296 00:29:40.210 ⇒ 00:29:43.439 Uttam Kumaran: And then… Okay. …we’ll just keep attaching scopes.
297 00:29:45.380 ⇒ 00:29:46.200 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
298 00:29:47.160 ⇒ 00:29:49.430 Uttam Kumaran: I mean, look, I think in the past.
299 00:29:49.610 ⇒ 00:29:52.940 Uttam Kumaran: They have been really receptive to this, like, upside-based thing.
300 00:29:53.170 ⇒ 00:29:53.780 Robert Tseng: Okay.
301 00:29:54.090 ⇒ 00:29:58.919 Uttam Kumaran: luckily, I’ve also been receptive, because I’m like, alright, let’s just see…
302 00:29:59.060 ⇒ 00:30:03.559 Uttam Kumaran: what it’s like to do one that’s, like, kind of, like, upside-based, right? Yeah.
303 00:30:03.670 ⇒ 00:30:17.909 Uttam Kumaran: Additionally, I know the CEO. It’s got… he’s… they’re, like, they’re… they’re not sure about a lot of this. Nobody in there has the technical capability to, like, do any of this. There is also… there’s also stuff, like, dude, we… they don’t run, like…
304 00:30:18.140 ⇒ 00:30:22.830 Uttam Kumaran: business reviews. They don’t run a great, like, KPI, so that’s the type of stuff that’s also, like.
305 00:30:23.160 ⇒ 00:30:26.879 Uttam Kumaran: We need some cash to, like, just run those types of projects.
306 00:30:27.170 ⇒ 00:30:27.750 Robert Tseng: Yeah.
307 00:30:28.170 ⇒ 00:30:29.529 Uttam Kumaran: And then we need, like.
308 00:30:31.430 ⇒ 00:30:37.250 Uttam Kumaran: yeah, we need some of these other things. And then there’s gonna be some of these where we’re like, maybe we don’t take, because it’s risky, or like…
309 00:30:37.590 ⇒ 00:30:41.149 Uttam Kumaran: It’s… I don’t know. Or we just kicked down a line to later.
310 00:30:43.800 ⇒ 00:30:46.930 Uttam Kumaran: Like, if Qatar can just help to improve
311 00:30:47.390 ⇒ 00:30:51.240 Uttam Kumaran: Organic, and improve conversion rate on the site.
312 00:30:52.510 ⇒ 00:30:58.229 Uttam Kumaran: like, they’re gonna win. They have all the infrastructure internally to deal with the delivery.
313 00:30:58.700 ⇒ 00:31:01.760 Uttam Kumaran: So, like, that’s the number one thing, versus even, like.
314 00:31:03.820 ⇒ 00:31:08.840 Uttam Kumaran: Like, I would rather do that than any, like, business reviews or, like, further crazy analysis.
315 00:31:08.840 ⇒ 00:31:09.410 Robert Tseng: Yeah.
316 00:31:15.390 ⇒ 00:31:16.090 Uttam Kumaran: Okay.
317 00:31:19.530 ⇒ 00:31:25.099 Uttam Kumaran: So, what’s a good path next step? So, I can put together… I feel comfortable putting together all the projects.
318 00:31:25.560 ⇒ 00:31:27.889 Uttam Kumaran: And then…
319 00:31:27.890 ⇒ 00:31:28.929 Robert Tseng: Check format, right?
320 00:31:29.290 ⇒ 00:31:34.799 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I’m gonna take this call and sort of have it redo this one more time.
321 00:31:35.220 ⇒ 00:31:36.309 Uttam Kumaran: But yeah, like…
322 00:31:36.310 ⇒ 00:31:40.100 Robert Tseng: I also want to draft, like, a couple slides, one on, like, kind of the…
323 00:31:40.510 ⇒ 00:31:47.689 Robert Tseng: how I think pricing should be laid out, and then I have, like… I mean, I can imagine certain objections. I don’t know what they’re…
324 00:31:49.220 ⇒ 00:31:54.599 Uttam Kumaran: I mean, I can… I can… I can also, if we get this done, or a version of this this week, I can…
325 00:31:54.760 ⇒ 00:31:57.459 Uttam Kumaran: I can walk Matt through this, who’s a CFO.
326 00:31:57.740 ⇒ 00:32:01.390 Robert Tseng: Okay, then yeah, let’s do that. That’s probably better than me just anticipating things.
327 00:32:02.330 ⇒ 00:32:07.230 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, like, if we can get even a version of that final slide, I’m basically gonna go to Matt and be like.
328 00:32:07.610 ⇒ 00:32:10.979 Uttam Kumaran: What’s, like, here’s how we’re thinking about doing it.
329 00:32:11.140 ⇒ 00:32:12.449 Uttam Kumaran: What do you think?
330 00:32:13.060 ⇒ 00:32:15.440 Uttam Kumaran: The other two, Steven and…
331 00:32:15.650 ⇒ 00:32:21.130 Uttam Kumaran: Steven and Bo, they’re not gonna care, they’re gonna be like, we’ll take everything.
332 00:32:21.760 ⇒ 00:32:25.709 Uttam Kumaran: I do want to kind of anticipate for Matt, because Matt’s gonna be…
333 00:32:25.980 ⇒ 00:32:31.979 Uttam Kumaran: the approver on the… on anything, but then I want to ask him, like, how’s Bobby gonna react to
334 00:32:32.460 ⇒ 00:32:35.060 Uttam Kumaran: These types of… this type of proposal.
335 00:32:35.250 ⇒ 00:32:36.350 Uttam Kumaran: So…
336 00:32:36.930 ⇒ 00:32:43.490 Uttam Kumaran: mad at, like, again, I can… so I can… if you just… if we finish those final slides, I’ll just put it in front of them and be like, what do you think?
337 00:32:45.140 ⇒ 00:32:46.160 Uttam Kumaran: This week.
338 00:32:48.840 ⇒ 00:32:49.440 Robert Tseng: Okay.
339 00:32:54.210 ⇒ 00:32:58.320 Uttam Kumaran: And then, so, I can do the pricing for probably the project-based stuff.
340 00:32:58.720 ⇒ 00:33:07.049 Uttam Kumaran: Cutter’s gonna give me some… Slides and stuff on, his end of the bargain.
341 00:33:07.330 ⇒ 00:33:11.870 Uttam Kumaran: I don’t know, like, what his pricing is yet, but we’ll kind of figure that out.
342 00:33:12.080 ⇒ 00:33:15.639 Uttam Kumaran: And then, I think, yeah, my question to you is, like.
343 00:33:16.010 ⇒ 00:33:19.450 Uttam Kumaran: How do we price the other stuff performance-based, like…
344 00:33:19.710 ⇒ 00:33:27.959 Uttam Kumaran: Do you want to do… like, yeah, you need industry research, or we have standard ways we think about it, so that would be my ask.
345 00:33:28.150 ⇒ 00:33:34.050 Robert Tseng: Okay. Yeah, no, once you rework this, this doc, like, let me, let me, let me, let me, let me help with pricing. Yeah.
346 00:33:35.420 ⇒ 00:33:36.070 Uttam Kumaran: Okay.
347 00:33:38.710 ⇒ 00:33:40.409 Uttam Kumaran: Cool. What else?
348 00:33:45.600 ⇒ 00:33:49.250 Uttam Kumaran: It put some… it put some stuff in here on, like, but again…
349 00:33:49.250 ⇒ 00:33:59.209 Robert Tseng: beyond just this, but, like, I view this as something we could give to Luke, and, like, it’s like a, well, look at this AI-assisted, like, discovery thing, you know, like, it’s like a…
350 00:33:59.210 ⇒ 00:34:00.220 Uttam Kumaran: Oh, yeah, dude, you should…
351 00:34:00.220 ⇒ 00:34:02.819 Robert Tseng: Why hire BCG to do this for 3 months?
352 00:34:02.820 ⇒ 00:34:09.590 Uttam Kumaran: For sure. Yeah, dude, I… how much does… how much would… how much does BCG charge for something like this?
353 00:34:10.170 ⇒ 00:34:10.860 Uttam Kumaran: Do you know?
354 00:34:11.989 ⇒ 00:34:12.670 Robert Tseng: I mean, there’s…
355 00:34:12.679 ⇒ 00:34:13.869 Clarence Stone: That’s been right here?
356 00:34:14.030 ⇒ 00:34:14.780 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
357 00:34:15.159 ⇒ 00:34:16.199 Clarence Stone: 250K.
358 00:34:16.199 ⇒ 00:34:17.719 Robert Tseng: Yeah, at least 200K, yeah.
359 00:34:18.969 ⇒ 00:34:19.479 Uttam Kumaran: Damn.
360 00:34:19.480 ⇒ 00:34:23.979 Robert Tseng: I was telling you, I… My… my friend in…
361 00:34:23.980 ⇒ 00:34:34.869 Uttam Kumaran: No, dude, I know, if I have a friend at BCG who’s not doing… he’s doing fuck all. I literally told him, I said, I’ve been… I’ve been doing what you’ve been working in grad school for, for 3 years, I’ve been doing, and I have no grad degree.
362 00:34:38.590 ⇒ 00:34:54.449 Uttam Kumaran: So funny, dude, he’s like, they have him, like, traveling at all these weird companies, and he’s like, yeah, it’s, like, so crazy. I’m literally like, dude, you know I’m doing what you’re doing, and I didn’t have to go to Colombia to do that.
363 00:34:55.840 ⇒ 00:34:59.870 Uttam Kumaran: I mean, yeah, $250K is good. I would say you could basically say, like.
364 00:35:00.610 ⇒ 00:35:06.180 Uttam Kumaran: we ran… I mean, for me, I… like, is $250K the minimum, or is that typical?
365 00:35:08.710 ⇒ 00:35:11.409 Robert Tseng: For discovery, yeah, I feel like that’s the typical range, yeah.
366 00:35:12.950 ⇒ 00:35:14.260 Uttam Kumaran: Okay, yeah.
367 00:35:14.760 ⇒ 00:35:15.319 Uttam Kumaran: I mean…
368 00:35:15.470 ⇒ 00:35:20.570 Clarence Stone: I don’t think I’m allowed to start an assessment unless I get an SOW for, like, $75K.
369 00:35:22.030 ⇒ 00:35:24.570 Clarence Stone: Like, and I would have to beg.
370 00:35:25.290 ⇒ 00:35:26.620 Clarence Stone: To make it happen.
371 00:35:27.820 ⇒ 00:35:32.659 Uttam Kumaran: I mean, a good way to do this is to say we ran a quarter million dollar assessment
372 00:35:32.820 ⇒ 00:35:38.890 Uttam Kumaran: I wouldn’t put 30 grand, though. I would put… we did it for, like, 100 grand.
373 00:35:39.380 ⇒ 00:35:39.939 Uttam Kumaran: Or 100.
374 00:35:39.940 ⇒ 00:35:45.440 Robert Tseng: Oh yeah, of course, of course, yeah. No, we just say, well, we ran a… we ran a $250K assessment.
375 00:35:45.720 ⇒ 00:35:49.970 Robert Tseng: Yeah, with AI, like, and then, yeah, we don’t have to say what we actually charged.
376 00:35:51.720 ⇒ 00:36:00.269 Uttam Kumaran: But I guess, is there any benefit, like, in that… in that analogy, or what’s the… what is the benefit to the customer? Like, maybe we were able to do…
377 00:36:00.270 ⇒ 00:36:01.959 Robert Tseng: clickbait. People will just be like, whoa.
378 00:36:01.960 ⇒ 00:36:15.050 Uttam Kumaran: Alright, then I… okay, yeah, I agree, this could go viral, but I’m also trying to think about, like, okay, is it, like, the fact that we were able to do that much value
379 00:36:15.280 ⇒ 00:36:21.780 Uttam Kumaran: In 2 months during holidays, and we were able to go even wider
380 00:36:21.970 ⇒ 00:36:23.730 Uttam Kumaran: than most people would go, like…
381 00:36:24.310 ⇒ 00:36:29.570 Uttam Kumaran: Because it’s… we almost did, like… I would almost say we probably did more than what they would do in 2 months.
382 00:36:30.690 ⇒ 00:36:37.959 Robert Tseng: Yeah, that and, like, we didn’t have to staff that many people, you know, right? Normally, they’d have, like, a person for each stakeholder.
383 00:36:37.960 ⇒ 00:36:44.630 Uttam Kumaran: But I guess your, your, your marketing message is that, like, yo, we may bank on this, like, I guess I’m like… I’m like…
384 00:36:44.770 ⇒ 00:36:48.069 Uttam Kumaran: Who’s that? Who’s the audience for that? Like…
385 00:36:48.370 ⇒ 00:36:52.770 Robert Tseng: Well, no, I mean, I don’t think it’s just about, like, flexing on, like, we did it for.
386 00:36:52.770 ⇒ 00:36:53.859 Uttam Kumaran: The margin, okay.
387 00:36:53.860 ⇒ 00:36:58.230 Robert Tseng: No, it’s like, just like, oh, you could… you could get this for yourself, you know?
388 00:36:58.230 ⇒ 00:36:59.610 Uttam Kumaran: Oh, yeah.
389 00:36:59.610 ⇒ 00:37:10.459 Robert Tseng: Like, you know, then we hide that behind, like, a paywall. Like, anybody who’s interested in basically running that level of, like, discovery on their own organization is probably a good prospect for us.
390 00:37:10.830 ⇒ 00:37:11.349 Clarence Stone: Yeah, I mean…
391 00:37:11.350 ⇒ 00:37:12.070 Uttam Kumaran: I see.
392 00:37:12.070 ⇒ 00:37:27.710 Clarence Stone: Post with just a simple question of, when’s the last time you got to take a look at your business performance in comparison to the rest of the market? When’s the last time you’ve set benchmarks for yourself? When’s the last time you’ve answered the question about how you’re doing, compared to your competitors?
393 00:37:27.710 ⇒ 00:37:28.390 Robert Tseng: Thanks for…
394 00:37:28.390 ⇒ 00:37:37.959 Clarence Stone: When’s the last time you stopped and thought about the strategy that you’re taking, whether or not it’s going to be sustainable for the growth or the dynamic changes in technology?
395 00:37:38.630 ⇒ 00:37:39.250 Robert Tseng: Excellent.
396 00:37:40.750 ⇒ 00:37:41.550 Clarence Stone: Because, like.
397 00:37:41.750 ⇒ 00:37:58.580 Clarence Stone: Those two dudes, I mean, I gave them a really basic PE-style assessment of where they stand in their industry. This is something that I would do if somebody was interested in investing in a company. And it seemed like, Usam, you can correct me, it really felt to me like no one’s ever given them this visibility.
398 00:37:58.580 ⇒ 00:38:00.000 Uttam Kumaran: No, no. Hell no, yeah.
399 00:38:00.480 ⇒ 00:38:05.439 Clarence Stone: Right, when’s the last time someone’s actually come around to say, hey, we’ll look into this for you and tell you where you are?
400 00:38:05.440 ⇒ 00:38:06.809 Robert Tseng: Or, like, I’ve met him a couple times.
401 00:38:07.170 ⇒ 00:38:08.050 Robert Tseng: Yeah.
402 00:38:08.280 ⇒ 00:38:12.210 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, then I like… yeah. I think that’s a great outcome of this.
403 00:38:12.450 ⇒ 00:38:17.600 Uttam Kumaran: You could basically literally open the repo and be, like, generate me, like.
404 00:38:18.690 ⇒ 00:38:24.000 Uttam Kumaran: a fake, like, or whatever, like, the fake case study or whatever, but this is great, yeah, I agree.
405 00:38:24.000 ⇒ 00:38:25.520 Robert Tseng: Yeah, we just turned this into a Notion guide.
406 00:38:25.520 ⇒ 00:38:28.409 Uttam Kumaran: We did very… we went very, very comprehensive.
407 00:38:29.310 ⇒ 00:38:29.890 Robert Tseng: in…
408 00:38:29.890 ⇒ 00:38:44.460 Uttam Kumaran: again, during holidays, you know, IT, like, their company does not move this fast. So, like, yeah, I think this is… I think this is more than that amount of money, if that’s what their people are charging. And we went in person, we went on-site, like, several times.
409 00:38:44.460 ⇒ 00:38:45.190 Robert Tseng: Oh.
410 00:38:45.190 ⇒ 00:38:48.890 Uttam Kumaran: You know, so… Cool.
411 00:38:49.150 ⇒ 00:38:50.530 Uttam Kumaran: I think that would be great.
412 00:38:50.650 ⇒ 00:38:55.220 Uttam Kumaran: I mean, the benefit also is, like, we could probably get a testimonial from these guys.
413 00:38:56.310 ⇒ 00:39:02.310 Uttam Kumaran: And I’m also, like, if they sign, I’m gonna also ask them, I have to ask them about some other potential leads, so…
414 00:39:03.770 ⇒ 00:39:07.260 Uttam Kumaran: I agree, this is a great one. I don’t know, Amber, like, what did you think about…
415 00:39:07.450 ⇒ 00:39:10.619 Uttam Kumaran: this end-to-end. I mean, I think if we were to do this all over again.
416 00:39:10.800 ⇒ 00:39:16.370 Uttam Kumaran: probably could have saved another… probably could have done this, like, 30% faster, I feel like, had I known.
417 00:39:16.370 ⇒ 00:39:23.049 Amber Lin: Yeah, I think you guys really did the heavy lifting with all the data connection and the getting the people
418 00:39:23.140 ⇒ 00:39:38.389 Amber Lin: to agree to talk to us, I think that’s where the heavy lifting is at. Once we have the data, it’s really a lot faster from there. So, I think if we know how to get those data in, if we know what we need next time, it will be a lot easier.
419 00:39:42.640 ⇒ 00:39:45.039 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, it would be great if we could package this.
420 00:39:45.700 ⇒ 00:39:48.389 Uttam Kumaran: At some more significant price for…
421 00:39:48.810 ⇒ 00:39:52.599 Uttam Kumaran: And stretch it to 3 months, like, it could really work out.
422 00:39:53.210 ⇒ 00:39:56.060 Uttam Kumaran: Cool, okay.
423 00:39:56.060 ⇒ 00:40:01.659 Clarence Stone: I mean, Utah, top of mind for me, though, in terms of, like, this deal structure, is, like, I don’t think it’s…
424 00:40:01.860 ⇒ 00:40:19.169 Clarence Stone: for me, in this current state, clear to me, if I was a CEO, like, what’s going to be fixed pricing, and what’s gonna be variable based on performance, right? So, I think there needs to be clear messaging on what we do that’s going to be in that fixed pricing bin.
425 00:40:19.170 ⇒ 00:40:19.780 Uttam Kumaran: Yes.
426 00:40:19.780 ⇒ 00:40:29.269 Clarence Stone: Right, so if it’s platform technology build or, you know, something like that, you know, they already know that they connect those two words to fixed pricing, versus, like.
427 00:40:30.370 ⇒ 00:40:33.959 Clarence Stone: You know, marketing initiative, okay, that’s gonna be variable pricing.
428 00:40:34.230 ⇒ 00:40:49.009 Clarence Stone: Right? Like, I don’t know what word you want in syntax, but, like, I want it to be implied that in the future, we talk about a marketing initiative, okay, that’s going to be variable compensation. Right? We talk about fixing your data system, that’s going to be fixed price. That comes in SOW.
429 00:40:49.410 ⇒ 00:40:52.359 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, so that’s what I think what we’ll work on next.
430 00:40:52.660 ⇒ 00:40:53.390 Clarence Stone: Yeah.
431 00:40:59.760 ⇒ 00:41:06.159 Uttam Kumaran: And then, yeah, I think… I think, honestly, depending on the projects, maybe we pitch something that’s less…
432 00:41:06.730 ⇒ 00:41:09.730 Uttam Kumaran: Project-based, and that is… ends up being, like.
433 00:41:10.340 ⇒ 00:41:13.139 Uttam Kumaran: You have us on retainer for platform stuff.
434 00:41:13.250 ⇒ 00:41:20.650 Uttam Kumaran: And then this mount is… More. Yeah.
435 00:41:21.690 ⇒ 00:41:34.639 Clarence Stone: Yeah, so, Robert, I don’t think I’ve told you about this, but I was telling you, Tom, that, like, some of the longest-standing, best clients that we have, quote-unquote, sit in what we call the G365 accounts.
436 00:41:34.670 ⇒ 00:41:49.970 Clarence Stone: are… are just clients that are just gonna buy whatever we sell them anyway. And one of the arrangements that exist for them is, just, like, flat fixed pricing, and then every quarter, we sit down with them and say, okay, what projects do you want us to do?
437 00:41:50.180 ⇒ 00:42:06.509 Clarence Stone: So it’s not a conversation about, like, whether or not you want in or not, like, they already come to that meeting with, like, this is all the shit we need your help with, please help, right? And then we actually sit with their executive board to say, okay, like, you know, same quad that UTAM created with the…
438 00:42:06.570 ⇒ 00:42:14.289 Clarence Stone: easy, difficult, and, you know, high and even rewards, we put that back up and say, okay, based on, you know, the difficulties you guys are expressing.
439 00:42:14.290 ⇒ 00:42:30.629 Clarence Stone: this is how we recommend you prioritize. They just pick their 2 or 3 projects for the quarter, and we just move on. And what’s really cool about that is, one, this is very different from, you know, the variable pricing, right? But, one, the benefit is you have very predictable income now.
440 00:42:30.630 ⇒ 00:42:34.509 Clarence Stone: Because you know that you’ve locked in to X amount of years with this account.
441 00:42:34.510 ⇒ 00:42:43.430 Clarence Stone: Right? And then for the… for the client, it’s really predictable, too. They just go, oh, we just reserved 25% of whatever our tech spending goes straight to EY.
442 00:42:43.560 ⇒ 00:43:01.850 Clarence Stone: Like, they don’t even think about it, they just go, oh, add that to the list of shit we’re gonna make them do later, right? That’s it. So that’s another thing I’ll throw out there as a pricing model, but I think your upside’s much higher with this, you know, results-based pricing, so if this is a customer that wants to do that, like, probably should do it.
443 00:43:04.270 ⇒ 00:43:08.650 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I mean, I feel like we’re gonna knock it out for these guys, so I would like a piece of the upside.
444 00:43:10.020 ⇒ 00:43:12.400 Uttam Kumaran: I think it’s an everybody wins situation.
445 00:43:13.010 ⇒ 00:43:13.650 Clarence Stone: Yeah.
446 00:43:16.070 ⇒ 00:43:19.870 Uttam Kumaran: I’m just nervous because it’s the first time we’ve done this, I’m just nervous, so I just, like…
447 00:43:19.870 ⇒ 00:43:22.430 Robert Tseng: What is… Docs?
448 00:43:22.870 ⇒ 00:43:24.120 Clarence Stone: Sorry, Robert, you were trying to…
449 00:43:24.120 ⇒ 00:43:24.440 Uttam Kumaran: Sorry.
450 00:43:24.440 ⇒ 00:43:26.450 Clarence Stone: into the conversation a few times.
451 00:43:26.450 ⇒ 00:43:39.569 Robert Tseng: No, no, all good. I was just saying, yeah, I think, after a certain price point, yeah, like, people just, I mean, us just, they like the predictability of just, like, I feel like we’ve just become, like, a budget line item for Eden. It’s just like…
452 00:43:39.630 ⇒ 00:43:51.689 Robert Tseng: Which is also hard, though, because then we want to pivot out of that, because I feel like we could have captured more upside, like, the type of work that we’re doing is more, like, it needs to be more proactive, it needs to be more strategy-oriented, then I feel like we’re…
453 00:43:51.840 ⇒ 00:43:56.229 Robert Tseng: I’m not able to… yeah, like, the incentives aren’t there to, like, really
454 00:43:56.340 ⇒ 00:44:07.479 Robert Tseng: Have our team really run at the, okay, let’s get them that 5% lift on, like, on re… on customer reorders, because we’re not capturing any additional upside of that right now.
455 00:44:08.290 ⇒ 00:44:18.699 Robert Tseng: Yeah, but if it’s just, like, random special projects that, like, they want… that they’re telling us, like, yeah, I think that’s… I think it’s… I mean, that’s kind of how we’ve been operating the past…
456 00:44:18.860 ⇒ 00:44:22.220 Robert Tseng: past two quarters, so I think that makes sense to me.
457 00:44:24.630 ⇒ 00:44:25.230 Uttam Kumaran: Okay.
458 00:44:26.610 ⇒ 00:44:30.599 Uttam Kumaran: Okay, let me take a, let me take another pass at this dock.
459 00:44:30.800 ⇒ 00:44:33.540 Uttam Kumaran: And then, yeah, if we can try to have…
460 00:44:33.820 ⇒ 00:44:40.250 Uttam Kumaran: The last few slides of the presentation, or at least the doc, In some place.
461 00:44:40.500 ⇒ 00:44:41.569 Uttam Kumaran: This week?
462 00:44:41.870 ⇒ 00:44:44.849 Uttam Kumaran: I can run it by my mat for feedback.
463 00:44:45.880 ⇒ 00:44:52.730 Uttam Kumaran: look, like, gold standard here would be Matt’s like, yeah, we totally buy that, and then we go to the meeting, pitch it, they buy it, and then…
464 00:44:53.190 ⇒ 00:44:55.030 Uttam Kumaran: Figure it out from there, so…
465 00:44:55.190 ⇒ 00:44:55.810 Clarence Stone: Yeah.
466 00:44:56.340 ⇒ 00:44:58.920 Uttam Kumaran: Trying my best to, like, orchestrate it, like.
467 00:44:59.990 ⇒ 00:45:18.010 Uttam Kumaran: I took… get the buy-in on SOW feedback from what’s Her Face, super, super seriously, whoever that woman is on Twitter. So that’s all my M.O. is these days, is get them to build the SOW. So we convinced that… we’ve convinced, like, so many people through this process that we know what we’re doing, so…
468 00:45:21.650 ⇒ 00:45:25.009 Uttam Kumaran: And Connor seems great, I’d like to work with him, seems like, seems dope.
469 00:45:25.820 ⇒ 00:45:28.489 Robert Tseng: Yeah, I hope, I hope, hope it works out.
470 00:45:28.690 ⇒ 00:45:33.289 Uttam Kumaran: Don’t say that, don’t say that, what’s your nervousness? I didn’t work with him.
471 00:45:33.290 ⇒ 00:45:38.290 Robert Tseng: I don’t know, I think it’s great, but I just… I hope that we come to a good agreement on.
472 00:45:38.290 ⇒ 00:45:44.649 Uttam Kumaran: He said he found Tigran also, he said he found Tigran on, like, Upwork, like, years ago, and, like, they’ve been working together for a while.
473 00:45:44.650 ⇒ 00:45:45.810 Robert Tseng: He runs this guy, yeah.
474 00:45:45.810 ⇒ 00:45:48.959 Uttam Kumaran: Tigran, and then some… this other woman, he said they all got let go.
475 00:45:49.610 ⇒ 00:45:50.280 Robert Tseng: His wife.
476 00:45:51.380 ⇒ 00:45:52.779 Uttam Kumaran: Whose wife? Tigran’s wife.
477 00:45:52.780 ⇒ 00:45:54.290 Robert Tseng: No, no, Cutter’s wife.
478 00:45:54.290 ⇒ 00:45:56.460 Uttam Kumaran: Oh, Cutter’s wife. Who’s Cutter’s wife? Have we worked with him?
479 00:45:56.460 ⇒ 00:45:59.359 Robert Tseng: Yeah, I actually didn’t know, but her name’s Christiana.
480 00:45:59.890 ⇒ 00:46:00.560 Uttam Kumaran: Oh, okay.
481 00:46:00.560 ⇒ 00:46:01.950 Robert Tseng: Yeah.
482 00:46:02.620 ⇒ 00:46:05.650 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, he does not fuck with us. They eat in cats anymore, dude.
483 00:46:05.650 ⇒ 00:46:06.220 Robert Tseng: Yeah.
484 00:46:06.830 ⇒ 00:46:11.749 Uttam Kumaran: It’s just funny. Cutter’s really, really nice. He spent, like, some nice time with me, yeah.
485 00:46:11.750 ⇒ 00:46:12.580 Robert Tseng: Yeah.
486 00:46:14.630 ⇒ 00:46:20.310 Uttam Kumaran: Okay, cool, let me put this together then. Cool. Amber, like, any questions on analysis stuff before we drop?
487 00:46:22.590 ⇒ 00:46:28.700 Amber Lin: Not really. I’ve been trying to find the cancellation reasons. I’ve been…
488 00:46:29.080 ⇒ 00:46:40.100 Amber Lin: not really able to find this specific cancellation, reports, so it might end up just being an 8x8. Like, I’m not.
489 00:46:40.100 ⇒ 00:46:41.659 Uttam Kumaran: Alright, it’s in Evolve.
490 00:46:42.410 ⇒ 00:46:49.040 Amber Lin: Yeah, I’ve been looking at the skip reasons, but the cancellation reasons I’ve not been able to find yet.
491 00:46:49.530 ⇒ 00:46:52.010 Uttam Kumaran: Maybe ping, ping Julie.
492 00:46:53.440 ⇒ 00:47:00.389 Amber Lin: Okay, I might also ask, Yvette and her team, because they are the ones who entered in the cancellations.
493 00:47:00.390 ⇒ 00:47:09.370 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I think I saw, because I… when I was in Julie’s office, she showed me that it’s in… they go in and enter, and there’s this, like, form, basically, that they fill.
494 00:47:10.370 ⇒ 00:47:12.509 Uttam Kumaran: It’s there somewhere, but, like.
495 00:47:12.830 ⇒ 00:47:16.160 Uttam Kumaran: They may show you where it is in the UI, Julie may help figure out
496 00:47:17.260 ⇒ 00:47:22.000 Uttam Kumaran: Or if you want to respond, there’s that thread with the whole Evolve team, you can even respond…
497 00:47:22.350 ⇒ 00:47:26.040 Uttam Kumaran: Being like, hey, we’re just looking for this piece in case it’s… in case you have it.
498 00:47:26.260 ⇒ 00:47:27.469 Amber Lin: Cool, okay.
499 00:47:28.740 ⇒ 00:47:30.190 Uttam Kumaran: Okay, cool.
500 00:47:30.550 ⇒ 00:47:32.910 Uttam Kumaran: Thanks, S. Thanks, Clarence.
501 00:47:32.910 ⇒ 00:47:34.889 Clarence Stone: palm tree behind you? Are you in LA still?
502 00:47:35.350 ⇒ 00:47:39.180 Robert Tseng: Yeah, I’m still in LA. I’m leaving tonight, yeah.
503 00:47:39.180 ⇒ 00:47:43.180 Clarence Stone: Bro, stay there. It’s gonna be dangerous out there in Jersey.
504 00:47:43.180 ⇒ 00:47:43.700 Robert Tseng: and there’s.
505 00:47:43.700 ⇒ 00:47:45.929 Clarence Stone: Maybe another 6 inches or something like that.
506 00:47:45.930 ⇒ 00:47:47.010 Robert Tseng: Oh, is it?
507 00:47:47.010 ⇒ 00:47:48.270 Clarence Stone: Yeah, it’s gonna suck.
508 00:47:48.270 ⇒ 00:47:50.630 Robert Tseng: canceled. I’ve already gotten some warnings.
509 00:47:52.100 ⇒ 00:47:53.680 Clarence Stone: Yeah, it looks gorgeous there, though.
510 00:47:53.680 ⇒ 00:47:55.159 Robert Tseng: Oh, it’s so nice.
511 00:47:55.360 ⇒ 00:47:57.160 Clarence Stone: Brutal out here.
512 00:47:57.160 ⇒ 00:47:59.240 Uttam Kumaran: It’s brutal here, dude, it sucks.
513 00:47:59.440 ⇒ 00:48:01.109 Robert Tseng: Yeah, is it pitch black where you are, you’re talking?
514 00:48:01.110 ⇒ 00:48:01.830 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, but…
515 00:48:01.830 ⇒ 00:48:03.969 Clarence Stone: My room’s already dark, look at his room!
516 00:48:03.970 ⇒ 00:48:20.999 Uttam Kumaran: Fish black. Yeah, this is night… usually I turn the light on, not gremlin anymore, but… I don’t know, today feels nice to just keep the lights off, but Jess went to the grocery store, and the truck slipped, and so I was in a meeting, and she was calling me, and I’m like… she’s like, I’m stuck, and I’m like, fuck.
517 00:48:21.000 ⇒ 00:48:23.789 Clarence Stone: And someone.
518 00:48:23.790 ⇒ 00:48:27.870 Robert Tseng: Someone showed her to turn on the 4x4 in the Ford, and it worked.
519 00:48:28.140 ⇒ 00:48:28.890 Robert Tseng: Nice.
520 00:48:28.890 ⇒ 00:48:30.270 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
521 00:48:30.520 ⇒ 00:48:32.990 Robert Tseng: Yeah, I mean, clear blue sky, it’s,
522 00:48:34.090 ⇒ 00:48:35.459 Clarence Stone: Look at that, it’s gorgeous!
523 00:48:35.460 ⇒ 00:48:36.600 Uttam Kumaran: I know, it’s very nice.
524 00:48:36.600 ⇒ 00:48:41.649 Robert Tseng: Yeah, like, high 60s, it’s… I mean… It’s hard to go back.
525 00:48:42.740 ⇒ 00:48:44.370 Uttam Kumaran: That’s great.
526 00:48:45.150 ⇒ 00:48:47.279 Robert Tseng: We got, Luke here.
527 00:48:47.280 ⇒ 00:48:49.080 Clarence Stone: Oh, what’s up, Luke? Hi.
528 00:48:49.080 ⇒ 00:48:49.800 Uttam Kumaran: Love G.
529 00:48:50.850 ⇒ 00:48:52.010 Robert Tseng: Library houses.
530 00:48:52.010 ⇒ 00:48:52.700 Uttam Kumaran: Nice.
531 00:48:52.930 ⇒ 00:48:57.110 Uttam Kumaran: He says it’s chilly.
532 00:48:58.210 ⇒ 00:48:58.710 Robert Tseng: Yeah.
533 00:48:58.950 ⇒ 00:48:59.890 Uttam Kumaran: Okay, guys.
534 00:48:59.890 ⇒ 00:49:07.800 Clarence Stone: I’ll let you go. Yeah, and Robert, I’m gonna send you a meeting recording from the update that I got from the.
535 00:49:07.800 ⇒ 00:49:11.880 Robert Tseng: Oh yeah, sorry I missed you on Friday, yeah. Yeah, that’s why I wanna hear it.
536 00:49:11.880 ⇒ 00:49:27.639 Clarence Stone: Dude, it’s a cluster, and I don’t know how we can figure out how to get ourselves involved. What I do know is they need help, like, massively. It’s like… and they’re willing to pay for it, it’s just… there’s so much noise coming from every direction, and I think that phone call fully captures it.
537 00:49:27.640 ⇒ 00:49:28.320 Robert Tseng: Okay.
538 00:49:28.320 ⇒ 00:49:28.820 Uttam Kumaran: Okay.
539 00:49:28.820 ⇒ 00:49:46.020 Clarence Stone: I’ll send it… I think I sent it to you already, Utam, but I’ll text it to you guys, too. Like, it is… it’s really interesting. I’m not sure how to insert ourselves into that one. But the other one with the UI, Utam, like, so… so, Robert, on Friday, another thing popped up, because,
540 00:49:46.020 ⇒ 00:49:46.619 Robert Tseng: That would be…
541 00:49:46.620 ⇒ 00:50:00.280 Clarence Stone: I, like, I was ready to, like, be out of my UI contract, so I can actually work on this more. So, I had my little update with the head of tax technology, and he’s like, dude, everything’s so fucked up, we’re getting rid of our UX team.
542 00:50:00.920 ⇒ 00:50:21.680 Clarence Stone: like, how would you implement UX into the dev process? How would you do it? Like, do you know any UX design? Like, oh, it’s like that. He’s like, yeah, just bring all your friends along, we need to fix this. I was like, oh, like an open blank checkbook? He’s like, yeah, like, we need a path to resolution. So, the other project that came along, and being directly asked of me.
543 00:50:21.680 ⇒ 00:50:22.710 Robert Tseng: Right.
544 00:50:22.710 ⇒ 00:50:31.809 Clarence Stone: I flat out said, hey, I work with this company called Brainforge now, you guys are gonna have to go through a vendor approval process, and they were like, yes, I’m cool with that. Tell me how you would do it.
545 00:50:31.810 ⇒ 00:50:34.360 Robert Tseng: Alright, we’re a UX design firm now.
546 00:50:35.550 ⇒ 00:50:35.870 Clarence Stone: So…
547 00:50:35.870 ⇒ 00:50:42.360 Uttam Kumaran: It’s a fun… it’s an interesting project, basically. It’s like, they want… they want us to help them teach.
548 00:50:42.760 ⇒ 00:50:45.460 Uttam Kumaran: how they would use AI to do UX design.
549 00:50:45.460 ⇒ 00:50:46.370 Robert Tseng: Like, I didn’t…
550 00:50:46.370 ⇒ 00:50:58.170 Uttam Kumaran: And I said, that’s great, yeah, I would love… I just… I did that, and no one here picked it up, so I figured that out, and I would love to teach other people how to, like, do that, so…
551 00:50:58.480 ⇒ 00:50:58.840 Clarence Stone: Yes.
552 00:50:58.840 ⇒ 00:51:09.450 Uttam Kumaran: And that’s a fun, like, AI transformation thing, right? Yeah, that’s what we want. We can evaluate a bunch of vendors, show them… I said, basically, we can evaluate magic patterns, all the best UX AI apps.
553 00:51:09.450 ⇒ 00:51:10.490 Robert Tseng: Yeah. Use.
554 00:51:10.490 ⇒ 00:51:16.159 Uttam Kumaran: cursor, clog code, and, like, evaluate a bunch, and, like, allow them to make a decision. Yeah.
555 00:51:16.380 ⇒ 00:51:18.300 Robert Tseng: Great.
556 00:51:18.300 ⇒ 00:51:21.579 Clarence Stone: Yeah, so, I’m gonna kind of dive into that and try to.
557 00:51:21.580 ⇒ 00:51:22.030 Robert Tseng: Yeah.
558 00:51:22.030 ⇒ 00:51:31.289 Clarence Stone: create some slides that I’ll show them. That, I think we can kind of take a swing at, but man, the snowflake thing gets so messy, because there’s so many people involved. It’s crazy.
559 00:51:31.680 ⇒ 00:51:36.610 Clarence Stone: There’s… you know there’s 16, account executives assigned to EY? That’s why you…
560 00:51:36.610 ⇒ 00:51:37.040 Uttam Kumaran: fake?
561 00:51:37.040 ⇒ 00:51:39.810 Clarence Stone: Probably, like, so freaking confused.
562 00:51:40.210 ⇒ 00:51:41.779 Clarence Stone: What’s not enough today from that phone call?
563 00:51:42.550 ⇒ 00:51:44.139 Uttam Kumaran: They’re all on the call?
564 00:51:44.140 ⇒ 00:51:46.970 Clarence Stone: 16 different account executives.
565 00:51:46.970 ⇒ 00:51:49.109 Uttam Kumaran: It’s a big… it’s a big account, brother.
566 00:51:49.110 ⇒ 00:51:51.869 Clarence Stone: Oh yeah, like, we are one of the biggest spenders.
567 00:51:53.400 ⇒ 00:51:57.010 Uttam Kumaran: It’s just little ol’ me emailing, like, a bunch of people being like, yo, get me in.
568 00:51:57.010 ⇒ 00:51:57.530 Clarence Stone: Yeah, bye.
569 00:51:57.530 ⇒ 00:52:02.790 Robert Tseng: That’s a whole Brain Forge theme. I know, it’s a whole Brain Forge theme for just Eli.
570 00:52:02.790 ⇒ 00:52:05.670 Clarence Stone: Nobody’s ever, like, actually delivered tax returns.
571 00:52:05.670 ⇒ 00:52:06.430 Robert Tseng: hot.
572 00:52:06.430 ⇒ 00:52:10.749 Clarence Stone: So the guy was like, hey, yeah, we have a bunch of spanning activity on a bunch of other projects.
573 00:52:10.750 ⇒ 00:52:11.390 Robert Tseng: supplement.
574 00:52:11.390 ⇒ 00:52:15.750 Clarence Stone: Nothing’s really similar except for this one project that’s happening over in, like, Europe.
575 00:52:15.750 ⇒ 00:52:16.450 Robert Tseng: That’s awesome.
576 00:52:16.450 ⇒ 00:52:19.760 Clarence Stone: So, you guys are, you know, it’s starting from scratch with tax books.
577 00:52:20.980 ⇒ 00:52:21.990 Robert Tseng: Hmm.
578 00:52:21.990 ⇒ 00:52:24.039 Clarence Stone: And nobody wants to give up resources.
579 00:52:24.200 ⇒ 00:52:25.970 Robert Tseng: Full semester last year.
580 00:52:25.970 ⇒ 00:52:32.709 Clarence Stone: So, yeah, I don’t even know how to get involved there, but I’m going through the planning cycle with them this week, so we’ll figure that out.
581 00:52:32.980 ⇒ 00:52:36.259 Robert Tseng: Okay. Yeah, I mean, I wanna listen… I’m gonna listen to that call.
582 00:52:36.260 ⇒ 00:52:46.579 Uttam Kumaran: I mean, if they don’t know how to work with Snowflake well, then that’s a great way to utilize, like, me, because all of our clients utilize me, like, just… just know that product really well, so…
583 00:52:46.580 ⇒ 00:52:47.200 Robert Tseng: Good evening.
584 00:52:47.370 ⇒ 00:52:51.370 Uttam Kumaran: If they’re not getting, like, scope or resources or, like, how to do things, like.
585 00:52:51.370 ⇒ 00:52:51.720 Robert Tseng: that I think.
586 00:52:51.720 ⇒ 00:52:53.499 Uttam Kumaran: We become the intermediary pretty well.
587 00:52:53.500 ⇒ 00:53:10.390 Clarence Stone: the crazy part, the scope of the resourcing that they’re getting is the most bullshit pitch plan I’ve ever seen. Like, I’m just like, you guys are overspending here, this is not how implementation should work. Like, I know people who can do this in, like, a quarter, an eighth of the time, with way less resources. What are you guys doing?
588 00:53:11.630 ⇒ 00:53:14.289 Clarence Stone: it’s… it’s… it’s pretty wild. I mean, you guys.
589 00:53:14.290 ⇒ 00:53:14.770 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
590 00:53:14.890 ⇒ 00:53:16.770 Clarence Stone: Stupid.
591 00:53:18.170 ⇒ 00:53:21.639 Uttam Kumaran: It just takes whoever… it just takes whoever cares to bring us in.
592 00:53:21.780 ⇒ 00:53:27.009 Clarence Stone: Yeah. Or at least bring us in for a call and be like, hey, let’s just sign something so you guys are just on call.
593 00:53:27.220 ⇒ 00:53:28.410 Uttam Kumaran: Or I’m on call?
594 00:53:28.410 ⇒ 00:53:29.490 Clarence Stone: So, so…
595 00:53:29.670 ⇒ 00:53:38.200 Clarence Stone: that’s another angle in. So maybe you guys just listen and call and let me know. It’s like, I think another angle in is to just say, like, hey,
596 00:53:38.940 ⇒ 00:53:49.719 Clarence Stone: We’ve got experts. If you just need advisory and consulting through your whole implementation cycle, here’s two people from Brainforge who’ve done it all, that’ll sit on those calls and tell you if you’re doing it right or wrong.
597 00:53:50.030 ⇒ 00:53:50.730 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, yeah.
598 00:53:51.060 ⇒ 00:53:52.900 Clarence Stone: So that’s another pathway.
599 00:53:53.430 ⇒ 00:53:53.980 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.
600 00:53:55.260 ⇒ 00:53:59.660 Clarence Stone: Yeah. What they do know for sure is that everything’s pretty fucked up.
601 00:54:00.830 ⇒ 00:54:08.289 Uttam Kumaran: Okay, let’s keep pushing. I mean, I sent some emails out today, I’m just gonna keep doing what I can. I love wasting salespeople’s time, because they don’t do anything, so…
602 00:54:09.230 ⇒ 00:54:12.660 Uttam Kumaran: I emailed a bunch of people, someone will pick up at some point.
603 00:54:12.970 ⇒ 00:54:13.850 Clarence Stone: Nice. Yeah.
604 00:54:14.230 ⇒ 00:54:14.830 Clarence Stone: Cool.
605 00:54:15.000 ⇒ 00:54:15.670 Uttam Kumaran: Okay.
606 00:54:15.960 ⇒ 00:54:16.500 Clarence Stone: Alright, dudes.
607 00:54:16.500 ⇒ 00:54:17.830 Uttam Kumaran: Cool. Thank you, guys.
608 00:54:18.180 ⇒ 00:54:19.450 Clarence Stone: Okay, yes.