2025-11-25_brainforge_x_abc_and_lilo_check-in

Meeting Title: Brainforge x ABC and Lilo Check-in Date: 2025-11-25 Meeting participants: Holly Condos, Uttam Kumaran

WEBVTT

1 00:05:39.730 ⇒ 00:05:40.330 Uttam Kumaran: Hello!

2 00:05:40.330 ⇒ 00:05:41.080 Holly Condos: Hmm.

3 00:05:41.080 ⇒ 00:05:41.580 Uttam Kumaran: Hey!

4 00:05:41.580 ⇒ 00:05:42.380 Holly Condos: I’m new.

5 00:05:42.380 ⇒ 00:05:43.499 Uttam Kumaran: Good, how are you?

6 00:05:43.730 ⇒ 00:05:45.950 Holly Condos: Good. You look rested today.

7 00:05:46.600 ⇒ 00:05:52.790 Uttam Kumaran: Oh, man, that’s just, that’s just… that’s just the… I don’t know, Tuesday glow.

8 00:05:53.340 ⇒ 00:05:55.970 Holly Condos: She’s too slow before Thanksgiving!

9 00:05:56.260 ⇒ 00:05:59.090 Uttam Kumaran: Reston would be your long shot.

10 00:05:59.270 ⇒ 00:06:00.760 Holly Condos: Are you staying local?

11 00:06:01.510 ⇒ 00:06:07.309 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, my family’s here visiting, so they just got in last night.

12 00:06:07.310 ⇒ 00:06:08.849 Holly Condos: Gosh, where are they from?

13 00:06:09.030 ⇒ 00:06:11.090 Uttam Kumaran: From the Bay Area, from the East Bay.

14 00:06:11.360 ⇒ 00:06:12.230 Holly Condos: Nice.

15 00:06:12.230 ⇒ 00:06:16.609 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, so… and my sister lives in DC, so she’s here visiting as well.

16 00:06:17.060 ⇒ 00:06:18.639 Uttam Kumaran: So we’ll be doing…

17 00:06:18.640 ⇒ 00:06:19.630 Holly Condos: warehouse.

18 00:06:19.820 ⇒ 00:06:28.500 Uttam Kumaran: Everyone’s in my house, and then my girlfriend’s family is in North Austin, so we’ll be doing Thanksgiving with, with, with both families there, which is great.

19 00:06:28.610 ⇒ 00:06:32.470 Holly Condos: Is this the first time you will be doing that?

20 00:06:34.730 ⇒ 00:06:35.970 Holly Condos: Both families together.

21 00:06:35.970 ⇒ 00:06:39.560 Uttam Kumaran: They… I think they… were they here last year?

22 00:06:40.420 ⇒ 00:06:56.879 Uttam Kumaran: I don’t know, we all got together for something. I don’t think it was Thanksgiving last year, but maybe it was, like, they were here for Christmas, but yeah, it’ll be the first Thanksgivings together. I just, like, don’t want to travel, and, like, I love staying here. I know you’ve been traveling a lot, which I don’t… I don’t know how…

23 00:06:56.990 ⇒ 00:07:08.930 Uttam Kumaran: I used to travel a lot, and I just, like, love staying in Austin. I can’t… I just, like, love this place, so I don’t want to go anywhere else. Like, everywhere else I go, and I’m like.

24 00:07:09.080 ⇒ 00:07:11.340 Uttam Kumaran: I don’t want to be in a city.

25 00:07:11.340 ⇒ 00:07:15.429 Holly Condos: That’s good, because you found, like, your sweet spot, so that’s good.

26 00:07:15.430 ⇒ 00:07:18.709 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I feel really, really good about here. And, like.

27 00:07:19.090 ⇒ 00:07:32.149 Uttam Kumaran: again, my whole thesis was, like, if we can become a little bit bigger, we’re, like, a pretty big fish in a small pond. Like, there are a lot of big consultancies here who, like, are just, like.

28 00:07:32.400 ⇒ 00:07:33.620 Uttam Kumaran: legacy.

29 00:07:33.750 ⇒ 00:07:37.430 Uttam Kumaran: There’s, like, startups, of which many of them are sort of, like.

30 00:07:37.850 ⇒ 00:07:47.420 Uttam Kumaran: kind of fake startups, they’re just, like, one or two people. Like, there’s just a bit… they’re, like, this is what a lot of people, they’re like, oh yeah, there’s, like, a big startup culture there. I’m like, yeah…

31 00:07:47.420 ⇒ 00:07:49.340 Holly Condos: You know, like, Jared, yesterday?

32 00:07:49.720 ⇒ 00:07:51.859 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, and I’m like, I don’t know…

33 00:07:52.240 ⇒ 00:08:10.190 Uttam Kumaran: I don’t know what you mean, like, if you really think that that’s the case, because they’re not spending money, and they’re not in the news. There are some startups, like, there’s this company… there are some… there are some, like, notable ones, but, like, nothing compared to SF, and then also nothing compared to New York.

34 00:08:10.360 ⇒ 00:08:10.690 Holly Condos: Right.

35 00:08:10.830 ⇒ 00:08:12.559 Holly Condos: So, like.

36 00:08:12.560 ⇒ 00:08:28.259 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, and I know a lot of those people that do all the… like, all my friends are the ones that host all the VC events and things like that, so… but I don’t… they’re no longer our… they’re not our customers, so I don’t go to those, unless they… they want some, warm bodies there, then I’ll oblige, but…

37 00:08:28.260 ⇒ 00:08:39.160 Holly Condos: So, I think… I thought Jared was nice, but I just got the… it’s almost like, you know, the hyperscaler playbook for.

38 00:08:39.169 ⇒ 00:08:45.160 Uttam Kumaran: Well, yeah, I mean, he is, I just think, like, they’re just robots. Like, I’ve worked a lot with those guys.

39 00:08:45.160 ⇒ 00:08:47.210 Holly Condos: Just robotic, yeah, yeah, so… Yeah.

40 00:08:47.770 ⇒ 00:09:03.160 Uttam Kumaran: for him, I’m… I’m like, yeah, if you… I mean, I’m just happy that he was really open, and, like, basically the advice I’ve gotten from everybody in that world is just, like, try to get them a win. So now I’m like, okay, if you have your… if you have your customer book, and we can get you a win, at least…

41 00:09:03.160 ⇒ 00:09:14.400 Uttam Kumaran: he’s new enough to not know that, like, we’re really small. A lot of people have sort of… and I… I also… I know some more senior people, so once I talk to Con… once I talk to Connie.

42 00:09:14.400 ⇒ 00:09:22.809 Uttam Kumaran: I will name… I’ll name drop them, because I know them. Some people… I just didn’t… we just didn’t have a way in… yet. Yeah.

43 00:09:22.810 ⇒ 00:09:30.939 Holly Condos: No, I think… I think this is a good entree, but… so, did you see her email? So, she sent a form to fill out.

44 00:09:30.940 ⇒ 00:09:32.050 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah. Right.

45 00:09:32.050 ⇒ 00:09:36.210 Holly Condos: And then she wanted to know who we’re thinking about for COCEL.

46 00:09:37.400 ⇒ 00:09:37.830 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.

47 00:09:37.830 ⇒ 00:09:45.229 Holly Condos: So, that’s one thing I wanted to ask you. So, should I just have, Rico set something up with her for next week?

48 00:09:45.830 ⇒ 00:09:46.359 Holly Condos: Do you want…

49 00:09:46.360 ⇒ 00:09:46.700 Uttam Kumaran: the time.

50 00:09:46.700 ⇒ 00:09:55.180 Holly Condos: Walk through our deck with her and, you know, kind of do a warm, fussy, let’s meet and greet first before we start throwing names over the fence.

51 00:09:55.760 ⇒ 00:10:09.249 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, there, I would like to do that. We do have one… like, CES is gonna sign… they… they want to sign an enterprise capacity agreement with Snowflake. They will sometime in the next 3 months. We will be driving that decision.

52 00:10:09.250 ⇒ 00:10:09.620 Holly Condos: Okay.

53 00:10:09.620 ⇒ 00:10:16.779 Uttam Kumaran: That will be… that will be an enterprise-sized contract, so it’s a good one for… we finally, like, have one.

54 00:10:16.930 ⇒ 00:10:18.549 Uttam Kumaran: We have a few more, but…

55 00:10:18.770 ⇒ 00:10:32.779 Uttam Kumaran: some of the existing ones, they may not sign capacity agreements, which is all they care about. The other thing about Snowflake that sucks is every… these guys are all, like, territory-based, so you’ll call someone, they’re like, oh, I don’t… they won’t even talk to you, because they’re like, you don’t cover.

56 00:10:32.780 ⇒ 00:10:33.129 Holly Condos: I know.

57 00:10:33.130 ⇒ 00:10:43.909 Uttam Kumaran: And that guy’s getting the short end of the stick with, like, Oklahoma, right? So he’s screwed. So, a lot of the people I know are the East Coast, Northeast.

58 00:10:44.100 ⇒ 00:10:46.489 Uttam Kumaran: Big enterprise folks.

59 00:10:48.030 ⇒ 00:11:02.430 Uttam Kumaran: So, ideally, we can use the meeting with Pawnee to… one, we just, like, start to get into their world. I also know the guy that runs, like, the Texas chapter for the Snowflake user group, like.

60 00:11:02.840 ⇒ 00:11:08.689 Uttam Kumaran: And I just know this product, like, very, very well, but we just have not had the deal sizes

61 00:11:09.210 ⇒ 00:11:14.529 Uttam Kumaran: like, our deal sizes are going up, but Snowflake, as part of that, has not been big.

62 00:11:14.530 ⇒ 00:11:15.020 Holly Condos: Mmm.

63 00:11:15.020 ⇒ 00:11:22.670 Uttam Kumaran: I… but I would like to start to build out, offers around, like, a Snowflake onboarding, a Snowflake

64 00:11:22.800 ⇒ 00:11:28.530 Uttam Kumaran: like, scaling thing, and like, we can easily do that. And that’s what I told Hannah, is like.

65 00:11:28.680 ⇒ 00:11:33.809 Uttam Kumaran: For that meeting, we should… our deck should… basically, the advice that another friend of mine

66 00:11:34.250 ⇒ 00:11:41.100 Uttam Kumaran: told me, he was like, we should just make a snowflake-specific deck. The whole thing should be half blue, like… Right.

67 00:11:41.470 ⇒ 00:11:44.930 Uttam Kumaran: And that’s what we should present to her. Like, I don’t want to…

68 00:11:45.800 ⇒ 00:11:53.609 Uttam Kumaran: I mean, like, ideally, we do that for all of our vendors, but for them in particular, like, they’re not gonna care at all about anybody else.

69 00:11:54.670 ⇒ 00:12:01.559 Holly Condos: Yeah, I think that would be good, and maybe we get the meeting for later in the week to give Hannah a little time, you know, to put that together.

70 00:12:01.880 ⇒ 00:12:04.790 Uttam Kumaran: I’m trying to get Hannah some more, like, deck…

71 00:12:05.170 ⇒ 00:12:12.059 Uttam Kumaran: support, like, US-based. Yeah. I don’t, like, I texted a bunch of, like, my design,

72 00:12:12.990 ⇒ 00:12:22.189 Uttam Kumaran: friends, but don’t… I’m trying to find, like, a junior designer to see if we can land somebody. I’m also, like, talking to some people at UT, but if anyone comes to mind.

73 00:12:22.520 ⇒ 00:12:22.970 Holly Condos: Yeah.

74 00:12:23.830 ⇒ 00:12:26.430 Uttam Kumaran: It’s very chill design work.

75 00:12:27.120 ⇒ 00:12:36.430 Holly Condos: Okay. Yeah, I actually have a couple ideas. I’ll ask them, like, what are we thinking? Like, 5 hours a week, maybe? 10 hours?

76 00:12:36.430 ⇒ 00:12:38.599 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, we probably have at least 10 hours a week.

77 00:12:38.600 ⇒ 00:12:39.310 Holly Condos: Okay.

78 00:12:39.860 ⇒ 00:12:44.410 Uttam Kumaran: We have, like… There’s, like, a backlog of, like, Handex.

79 00:12:44.580 ⇒ 00:12:45.599 Uttam Kumaran: That need to get made.

80 00:12:46.160 ⇒ 00:12:50.760 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, because we want… we… because right now, we just have a deck for AI, data.

81 00:12:51.070 ⇒ 00:12:53.759 Uttam Kumaran: And we have these partner decks.

82 00:12:53.760 ⇒ 00:12:54.100 Holly Condos: Yeah.

83 00:12:54.100 ⇒ 00:12:54.800 Uttam Kumaran: but then…

84 00:12:54.970 ⇒ 00:13:01.349 Uttam Kumaran: One, we… I want to create a deck per vertical. So I want to create an e-com, a SaaS, a healthcare…

85 00:13:01.630 ⇒ 00:13:02.190 Holly Condos: Yep.

86 00:13:02.190 ⇒ 00:13:11.599 Uttam Kumaran: And then… We also want to create a deck around, like, offerings.

87 00:13:11.600 ⇒ 00:13:12.180 Holly Condos: Yeah, that.

88 00:13:12.180 ⇒ 00:13:18.370 Uttam Kumaran: So, yeah, there’s just a lot of work, like, we just need someone to just start banging those out, and then kind of own, like, the…

89 00:13:18.880 ⇒ 00:13:33.900 Uttam Kumaran: because, like, some things are going to be reused, kind of, like, own just, like, decks and diagrams. I would like to hand that out, and then someone U.S.-based, because our other designer, Ann, she’s… she’s in the Philippines, but she’s handling some stuff, but it’s just hard to coordinate, and she’.

90 00:13:33.900 ⇒ 00:13:43.939 Holly Condos: Sure. The timing makes it difficult. Yeah, I have a couple thoughts. I’ll reach out and then let you know. I’ll try to get their resumes so you can… or at least their LinkedIns, and you can.

91 00:13:43.940 ⇒ 00:13:57.670 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, they can be… they can… as long as they have some experience in graphic design, less… I’m less interested in, like, product design, and then they can be junior, like, I don’t… it doesn’t matter, like, this is all really, really chill design work.

92 00:13:57.670 ⇒ 00:13:58.220 Holly Condos: Okay.

93 00:13:58.220 ⇒ 00:13:58.930 Uttam Kumaran: Do you know.

94 00:13:58.930 ⇒ 00:14:02.340 Holly Condos: Yeah, and they would just, like, take direction from you and Hannah.

95 00:14:02.810 ⇒ 00:14:04.449 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, just… Hannah would probably

96 00:14:04.820 ⇒ 00:14:10.720 Uttam Kumaran: just basically pass stuff off. And then we have… they run marketing stand-ups every day, so that person would just hop in those.

97 00:14:10.730 ⇒ 00:14:13.360 Holly Condos: Okay, yeah, I’ll see what I can find.

98 00:14:13.510 ⇒ 00:14:18.540 Holly Condos: Alright, so you want to look at, ABC first.

99 00:14:20.570 ⇒ 00:14:21.490 Holly Condos: Furb, what do you want to do?

100 00:14:21.490 ⇒ 00:14:23.659 Uttam Kumaran: about Lilo first, that’s probably the most…

101 00:14:23.660 ⇒ 00:14:24.800 Holly Condos: Silvo, yeah.

102 00:14:27.330 ⇒ 00:14:35.649 Holly Condos: Okay, so Lilo, on the insurance, right out of the gate. So I looked at the cert that we have.

103 00:14:35.990 ⇒ 00:14:41.469 Holly Condos: I’m assuming that that, privacy includes cyber?

104 00:14:41.910 ⇒ 00:14:42.580 Uttam Kumaran: Bess.

105 00:14:43.250 ⇒ 00:14:50.390 Holly Condos: Okay, so we’re good there. Let me just find… where… Let me share this…

106 00:15:08.020 ⇒ 00:15:12.410 Holly Condos: Okay, so, let’s see… this was the part…

107 00:15:17.470 ⇒ 00:15:20.860 Holly Condos: Well, so I put in the time frame here.

108 00:15:21.300 ⇒ 00:15:21.870 Uttam Kumaran: Okay.

109 00:15:22.120 ⇒ 00:15:24.310 Holly Condos: Oh, no, I guess Rico put that in, sorry.

110 00:15:27.280 ⇒ 00:15:37.400 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, it’s, basically, kind of the way we’re trying to do this is, like, 10K a month.

111 00:15:38.350 ⇒ 00:15:43.950 Uttam Kumaran: like, basically 30K, and then if I do by the end, or if we can…

112 00:15:44.420 ⇒ 00:15:49.000 Uttam Kumaran: If we deliver it faster than sort of at the end of acceptance.

113 00:15:49.230 ⇒ 00:15:53.730 Holly Condos: Okay, so this was the part that I slacked you about, right?

114 00:15:54.080 ⇒ 00:15:55.350 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, so what do you, like…

115 00:15:55.350 ⇒ 00:15:56.300 Holly Condos: detailed.

116 00:15:56.710 ⇒ 00:16:16.460 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I don’t… I mean, we’re not, like, we aren’t… like, I think we’re compliant here. Like, I don’t know… I don’t know an example of where we’re using libraries for commercial use cases, that, like, are… we’re not supposed to. Most of the stuff we use are all, like, whatever the MIT

117 00:16:16.660 ⇒ 00:16:21.020 Uttam Kumaran: super, super open are, but… I mean, yeah, I can… I can…

118 00:16:21.140 ⇒ 00:16:25.849 Uttam Kumaran: totally confirm that. I mean, I… I don’t… this is the thing, like, if…

119 00:16:26.720 ⇒ 00:16:38.590 Uttam Kumaran: I guess my question would be less about us removing it, I want to make sure that, hey, if we go… we’re… the scope of this project is that we’re absorbing another team’s sort of mess.

120 00:16:39.610 ⇒ 00:16:40.620 Holly Condos: Oh, really?

121 00:16:40.620 ⇒ 00:16:51.900 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, cleaning it up, and then building two distinct features. In fact, the reason why I wanted to go after this deal is it’s actually what they want from us is very similar to our platform. So it was like.

122 00:16:51.900 ⇒ 00:16:52.220 Holly Condos: Okay.

123 00:16:52.220 ⇒ 00:16:59.109 Uttam Kumaran: really nice, because it’s, like, kind of, they want, like, an internal management platform for their clients. They’re an e-commerce agency.

124 00:16:59.110 ⇒ 00:17:00.450 Holly Condos: Yeah.

125 00:17:00.770 ⇒ 00:17:11.370 Uttam Kumaran: And so… If… if we go in and find out that that vendor is using Non-open source licenses.

126 00:17:11.599 ⇒ 00:17:14.319 Uttam Kumaran: I just want to indicate that, like.

127 00:17:14.869 ⇒ 00:17:18.509 Uttam Kumaran: We will have to reconcile that, and that may impact timeline.

128 00:17:18.680 ⇒ 00:17:22.360 Uttam Kumaran: So, maybe that motivates them to, like, remove that?

129 00:17:23.339 ⇒ 00:17:33.089 Uttam Kumaran: Like, but that would probably be the only thing. I don’t… yeah, that’s… we have some access to existing codebase, but we… we’re sort of out of time for more discovery.

130 00:17:34.500 ⇒ 00:17:37.880 Holly Condos: Okay, so I think what I might… here, I’m back on the…

131 00:17:39.510 ⇒ 00:17:43.359 Holly Condos: This is where he actually stuck in the real, like, the meat.

132 00:17:46.630 ⇒ 00:17:53.559 Holly Condos: All work is original, non-infringing, and free of open source obligations requiring disclosure.

133 00:17:53.560 ⇒ 00:17:54.350 Uttam Kumaran: That’s fine.

134 00:17:54.880 ⇒ 00:17:58.789 Holly Condos: You good? Yeah, I’m okay with that. I just want to…

135 00:17:59.020 ⇒ 00:18:01.820 Uttam Kumaran: I want to throw it back to them to say, like.

136 00:18:03.320 ⇒ 00:18:09.789 Uttam Kumaran: If your existing codebase infringes on that, And this is the requirement.

137 00:18:10.350 ⇒ 00:18:14.389 Uttam Kumaran: like, it may impact timeline. I just want to say that out loud.

138 00:18:15.000 ⇒ 00:18:18.540 Holly Condos: Do you not… do you want me to put it in here as a contingency?

139 00:18:19.200 ⇒ 00:18:21.570 Uttam Kumaran: No, I just… can we leave it as a comment?

140 00:18:21.670 ⇒ 00:18:28.560 Holly Condos: Just so they’re, like, aware? Sure, I’ll just add a comment right here. I’ll accept this, but add a comment to that effect.

141 00:18:31.000 ⇒ 00:18:32.969 Uttam Kumaran: Okay, that’d be great, yeah, cause I just…

142 00:18:33.120 ⇒ 00:18:39.120 Uttam Kumaran: This may be something, like, an obligation, that…

143 00:18:39.450 ⇒ 00:18:43.310 Uttam Kumaran: I don’t know whether they put on their previous partners. I don’t mind having an us.

144 00:18:43.920 ⇒ 00:18:50.490 Uttam Kumaran: I just, like, again, if that wasn’t the case, and they have these other libraries, we will have to move those out.

145 00:18:50.710 ⇒ 00:18:51.380 Holly Condos: Okay.

146 00:18:51.620 ⇒ 00:18:57.710 Holly Condos: Alright, then the way they want to do this is… and this is fairly typical, so they want…

147 00:18:58.170 ⇒ 00:19:11.930 Holly Condos: us as consultant to say, hey, this is what we know to be pre-existing IP that we’re gonna use as part of the deliverable, so we’re carving that out in the agreement.

148 00:19:12.590 ⇒ 00:19:18.060 Holly Condos: Which is different than how you had it originally. So, basically.

149 00:19:18.470 ⇒ 00:19:21.410 Holly Condos: He took out the language that

150 00:19:22.970 ⇒ 00:19:28.889 Holly Condos: I think I accepted it already, but, that if we don’t say anything.

151 00:19:29.370 ⇒ 00:19:33.640 Holly Condos: Or they don’t… we don’t ask for, approval.

152 00:19:33.770 ⇒ 00:19:36.359 Holly Condos: that… They own it.

153 00:19:36.640 ⇒ 00:19:38.570 Holly Condos: Which is… Which is a.

154 00:19:38.570 ⇒ 00:19:39.140 Uttam Kumaran: Oh my god.

155 00:19:39.140 ⇒ 00:19:47.229 Holly Condos: more open and onerous than this, right? Because we can come back and say, hey, that was on our list, but we’ve also discovered this.

156 00:19:49.140 ⇒ 00:19:50.970 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I guess, like…

157 00:19:55.450 ⇒ 00:19:58.100 Holly Condos: Or, or it may be that we’re not using…

158 00:19:58.100 ⇒ 00:20:00.159 Uttam Kumaran: I’m not gonna invent anything new here.

159 00:20:00.160 ⇒ 00:20:01.010 Holly Condos: Okay.

160 00:20:01.280 ⇒ 00:20:05.000 Holly Condos: But are we using pre-existing IP that we own?

161 00:20:05.250 ⇒ 00:20:06.110 Uttam Kumaran: No.

162 00:20:06.110 ⇒ 00:20:09.089 Holly Condos: Okay, so we’re just gonna mark this box, you see this?

163 00:20:09.560 ⇒ 00:20:13.069 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I see that. Yeah, we’re not, like, bringing anything from our side.

164 00:20:13.320 ⇒ 00:20:13.670 Holly Condos: Okay.

165 00:20:13.670 ⇒ 00:20:15.260 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.

166 00:20:15.960 ⇒ 00:20:19.040 Holly Condos: And I can’t do it while I’m sharing. Okay, so I’ll just fix.

167 00:20:19.040 ⇒ 00:20:22.269 Uttam Kumaran: I mean, this is a good, like, long-term conversation to have about, like.

168 00:20:22.420 ⇒ 00:20:29.530 Uttam Kumaran: what IP we do have in the business, what?

169 00:20:29.650 ⇒ 00:20:38.839 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, we… I mean, we… what we bring to the table is, like, a methodology, but we’re… there’s not, like, code we’re bringing place to place, or… Yeah, so…

170 00:20:39.030 ⇒ 00:20:45.680 Holly Condos: And that’s fine, we… that’s typical. But, okay, but on, ABC,

171 00:20:46.110 ⇒ 00:20:48.649 Holly Condos: So I’m just looking at my notes here in Slack.

172 00:20:49.420 ⇒ 00:20:53.890 Holly Condos: Okay, so I think for… Levo, we’re good.

173 00:20:54.120 ⇒ 00:20:55.080 Uttam Kumaran: Okay.

174 00:20:55.080 ⇒ 00:20:56.750 Holly Condos: Let me just look here real quick.

175 00:20:57.020 ⇒ 00:20:59.880 Uttam Kumaran: Emma, can we just confirm what the payment schedule is?

176 00:21:01.260 ⇒ 00:21:03.970 Holly Condos: Yeah, let me go back to that.

177 00:21:07.170 ⇒ 00:21:12.950 Holly Condos: That was in the… Consulting agreement, right? Yeah, here we go, here, hold on.

178 00:21:16.100 ⇒ 00:21:20.429 Holly Condos: Let’s share… Sorry, I shouldn’t have taken it down.

179 00:21:22.800 ⇒ 00:21:24.820 Holly Condos: Okay, so…

180 00:21:38.330 ⇒ 00:21:42.150 Holly Condos: Well, hold on a minute. Did we put the pricing…

181 00:21:44.020 ⇒ 00:21:53.379 Uttam Kumaran: I guess my… yeah, maybe my first question is, like, you mentioned, like, hey, how are you bringing in SOWs and stuff? We typically don’t. Like, I… typically what happens is…

182 00:21:53.490 ⇒ 00:22:01.700 Uttam Kumaran: Ricoh, leverages AI to write a summary as part of the deliverables from the SOW, but…

183 00:22:02.150 ⇒ 00:22:07.200 Uttam Kumaran: if it’s better, we should just… we could just put the SOWs in here. I guess I have no…

184 00:22:08.330 ⇒ 00:22:10.550 Uttam Kumaran: Bombs, if that’s just a new problem.

185 00:22:10.550 ⇒ 00:22:16.480 Holly Condos: It’s 10K… For 3 months, or until…

186 00:22:17.030 ⇒ 00:22:17.530 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.

187 00:22:17.530 ⇒ 00:22:19.999 Holly Condos: And delivered, whichever occurs first.

188 00:22:21.610 ⇒ 00:22:22.320 Uttam Kumaran: Correct.

189 00:22:24.250 ⇒ 00:22:26.720 Uttam Kumaran: I mean, the other way we could do this…

190 00:22:26.880 ⇒ 00:22:32.880 Uttam Kumaran: And this is where, like, I just, like, we… this came so quick, so I just kind of brain farted, but we could have done, like.

191 00:22:33.280 ⇒ 00:22:36.980 Uttam Kumaran: It’s 30K, 10K up front.

192 00:22:37.720 ⇒ 00:22:41.239 Uttam Kumaran: 10K at a certain milestone, 10K at next milestone.

193 00:22:41.240 ⇒ 00:22:42.050 Holly Condos: Yeah.

194 00:22:42.680 ⇒ 00:22:49.490 Holly Condos: I mean, maybe… Yeah, you could do it by… by phase, right? You could say you want 10K to start.

195 00:22:50.040 ⇒ 00:22:54.200 Holly Condos: And then you want 10K for the completion of each phase.

196 00:22:55.570 ⇒ 00:22:58.030 Holly Condos: Or Phase 2 and 3, rather?

197 00:23:02.650 ⇒ 00:23:05.720 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, or we do 50% upfront.

198 00:23:07.040 ⇒ 00:23:09.109 Uttam Kumaran: 50% at the end.

199 00:23:09.340 ⇒ 00:23:10.410 Uttam Kumaran: Upon completion.

200 00:23:10.410 ⇒ 00:23:11.040 Holly Condos: Cool.

201 00:23:12.300 ⇒ 00:23:13.609 Holly Condos: We do that, too.

202 00:23:16.500 ⇒ 00:23:26.799 Holly Condos: So, yeah, if you… that way, you could book 50K… sorry, you could put… you could book half of it for 2025. Is that your thought?

203 00:23:29.830 ⇒ 00:23:31.790 Uttam Kumaran: No, but that is a good thought. I didn’t think that.

204 00:23:31.790 ⇒ 00:23:42.279 Holly Condos: Well, do you see what I’m driving at? So if you… if we structure it so that it’s 50% up front, and this starts, just for argument’s sake, on December 1,

205 00:23:43.360 ⇒ 00:23:44.310 Holly Condos: Right?

206 00:23:44.530 ⇒ 00:23:48.510 Holly Condos: Then they pay you, say, by the end of next week, $50K.

207 00:23:48.510 ⇒ 00:23:48.910 Uttam Kumaran: Wow.

208 00:23:49.190 ⇒ 00:23:52.039 Holly Condos: you book $50K for 2025.

209 00:23:54.580 ⇒ 00:23:55.030 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.

210 00:23:55.030 ⇒ 00:23:57.239 Holly Condos: Right, because you’re going to receive that payment.

211 00:23:58.680 ⇒ 00:24:07.500 Holly Condos: And then you’ve got the remainder spread out by phase.

212 00:24:07.500 ⇒ 00:24:07.910 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.

213 00:24:07.910 ⇒ 00:24:09.210 Holly Condos: 2026.

214 00:24:11.350 ⇒ 00:24:12.820 Holly Condos: You wanna do that?

215 00:24:16.840 ⇒ 00:24:21.660 Holly Condos: What did you discuss with them? Because is that going to be a surprise if it comes across.

216 00:24:21.660 ⇒ 00:24:27.999 Uttam Kumaran: No, no, no. I don’t… they actually have no problems with the price, which is a bummer, because I should have charged more.

217 00:24:28.180 ⇒ 00:24:41.229 Uttam Kumaran: So… which is the story of the last two, three weeks. We’re finding out that we’re underpricing, because these deals are moving pretty fast. I just, like, can’t be happy, I guess.

218 00:24:41.230 ⇒ 00:24:44.359 Holly Condos: I mean, yeah, I thought this was kind of low for what

219 00:24:44.830 ⇒ 00:24:47.120 Holly Condos: I agree, but, like, we.

220 00:24:47.700 ⇒ 00:24:48.770 Uttam Kumaran: It’s tough.

221 00:24:49.030 ⇒ 00:25:01.649 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I mean, this is the thing, like, at… there’s a… I also think it’s low. I don’t think we’re… I don’t… I’ve always thought we priced too low, but it’s a… we are… we have priced based on fear.

222 00:25:02.050 ⇒ 00:25:12.820 Uttam Kumaran: for our history of, like, we just need to make it. We are now turning the corner to pricing based on what we think we deserve. So, we are making that transition right now. But, like.

223 00:25:12.820 ⇒ 00:25:18.699 Holly Condos: Okay, that’s good. And, you know, just on that, so even if you come in high and they…

224 00:25:19.100 ⇒ 00:25:23.620 Holly Condos: Well, so what’s been happening? Like, you give a price and they just go quiet?

225 00:25:24.790 ⇒ 00:25:33.669 Uttam Kumaran: No, I mean, but this is the thing, like, I have lived through multiple phases of the business. I’ve lived through struggling to get 100 bucks an hour for our work.

226 00:25:33.810 ⇒ 00:25:39.899 Uttam Kumaran: I’ve lived through breaching 150. I’ve also lived through recently, we’re getting, like, 250.

227 00:25:40.130 ⇒ 00:25:51.419 Uttam Kumaran: And then now, like, Robert is actively pitching a $100,000 one-month deal. So I’ve just lived through all these different phases, so it’s hard for… it is emotional for me to…

228 00:25:51.940 ⇒ 00:26:00.209 Uttam Kumaran: we are ratcheting up the price. Like, every incremental thing we’re doing, we are increasing the price and the safety net, but, like…

229 00:26:00.370 ⇒ 00:26:06.149 Uttam Kumaran: we need to do more… we need to just do more of that. So, and we need to, like, basically…

230 00:26:06.590 ⇒ 00:26:10.430 Uttam Kumaran: we need to think of some others. The other part of this, though, is that, like.

231 00:26:10.810 ⇒ 00:26:16.499 Uttam Kumaran: part of the reason I want to win this deal is these guys have 5 more ideas they want to work on after. I could price that.

232 00:26:16.500 ⇒ 00:26:16.990 Holly Condos: Yeah.

233 00:26:16.990 ⇒ 00:26:20.189 Uttam Kumaran: I can make it back, so I’m not, like, super bummed.

234 00:26:20.190 ⇒ 00:26:26.469 Holly Condos: And that’s also very standard, like, you know, lowball it to get in the door, and then recover on the back.

235 00:26:26.470 ⇒ 00:26:26.840 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.

236 00:26:26.840 ⇒ 00:26:28.110 Holly Condos: the upsell, yeah.

237 00:26:28.110 ⇒ 00:26:34.750 Uttam Kumaran: So, like, so after these… this, like, wave, like, we’re gonna… our… we’re gonna just continue to increase pricing.

238 00:26:34.750 ⇒ 00:26:35.130 Holly Condos: Okay.

239 00:26:35.130 ⇒ 00:26:39.260 Uttam Kumaran: overall. So for this, like, I think I can… maybe we offer them…

240 00:26:40.460 ⇒ 00:26:44.629 Uttam Kumaran: I basically want to say it’s 10K up front,

241 00:26:48.070 ⇒ 00:26:49.700 Holly Condos: I’m just gonna do some notes here.

242 00:26:50.040 ⇒ 00:26:54.499 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I think 10K up front, and then…

243 00:26:58.060 ⇒ 00:27:00.530 Uttam Kumaran: I’m trying to think what’s best here.

244 00:27:01.240 ⇒ 00:27:04.180 Holly Condos: Yeah, do you want… so what happens in…

245 00:27:05.900 ⇒ 00:27:12.290 Uttam Kumaran: I mean, we could do 10K a month, I don’t mind, like, this is where maybe it’s just… it is easier to just do 10K a month.

246 00:27:12.680 ⇒ 00:27:21.129 Uttam Kumaran: And they’re almost like… and then, if we finish it, we just hit the last bill… we just hit the last bill, and faster, and then we go.

247 00:27:21.420 ⇒ 00:27:26.430 Holly Condos: Is there acceptance criteria for the… for these things, for the engine?

248 00:27:26.890 ⇒ 00:27:27.620 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.

249 00:27:27.800 ⇒ 00:27:30.349 Holly Condos: And the code ownership… there is?

250 00:27:30.780 ⇒ 00:27:40.309 Uttam Kumaran: There… there is, but that’s what we’re… like, there is… there is some success metrics, but, like, we are gonna be working with them on that, like, in this next first month.

251 00:27:40.840 ⇒ 00:27:42.289 Holly Condos: Is this it right here?

252 00:27:42.510 ⇒ 00:27:45.319 Holly Condos: 3 production-ready briefs during the pilot.

253 00:27:45.420 ⇒ 00:28:03.049 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah. Sorry, I didn’t see that. No, no, no, no problem, yeah. But also, like, yeah, that’s exactly it, like, so… they’re also… I’m not as nervous, because they’re coming from a vendor who is just, like, not communicating that well, not doing any project management, the codebase is really unclear, like…

254 00:28:03.160 ⇒ 00:28:04.309 Uttam Kumaran: I feel like…

255 00:28:04.520 ⇒ 00:28:14.640 Uttam Kumaran: the way I’m expecting this to go is, like, we’re gonna do the first month, we’ll probably brush this out in 2 months, and then I’m gonna start talking to them about, like, another 3-6 month.

256 00:28:14.640 ⇒ 00:28:16.760 Holly Condos: Right, you can start upselling.

257 00:28:16.760 ⇒ 00:28:17.460 Uttam Kumaran: Basic, yeah.

258 00:28:17.460 ⇒ 00:28:20.419 Holly Condos: Why don’t you… why don’t we do.

259 00:28:22.960 ⇒ 00:28:29.029 Uttam Kumaran: And I guess my question to you is, like, what you’re seeing in our business, you’re seeing a lot of these, like.

260 00:28:29.370 ⇒ 00:28:33.809 Uttam Kumaran: We’re trying… we’re doing a lot of, like, subscription,

261 00:28:34.260 ⇒ 00:28:40.700 Uttam Kumaran: type engagements. What do you think about that versus, like, the fixed… Price.

262 00:28:41.320 ⇒ 00:28:47.219 Holly Condos: Well, so that was one of my questions on the ABC scope, right?

263 00:28:47.270 ⇒ 00:28:48.620 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah. So…

264 00:28:49.700 ⇒ 00:28:53.440 Holly Condos: the subscription… I mean, the… Here.

265 00:28:53.660 ⇒ 00:28:54.860 Holly Condos: Okay, let’s…

266 00:28:55.920 ⇒ 00:28:56.940 Uttam Kumaran: Let’s just finish this.

267 00:28:56.940 ⇒ 00:28:57.300 Holly Condos: Yup.

268 00:28:57.300 ⇒ 00:28:58.100 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.

269 00:28:58.100 ⇒ 00:29:06.190 Holly Condos: Well, so let’s… let’s land. Are we gonna do 10K up front, and then 10K for the next 2 months?

270 00:29:06.190 ⇒ 00:29:11.190 Uttam Kumaran: this is gonna be 10K a month, and they didn’t balk at the net 15, so we’ll build.

271 00:29:11.450 ⇒ 00:29:12.610 Uttam Kumaran: The day we start.

272 00:29:12.610 ⇒ 00:29:13.190 Holly Condos: No, you’re good.

273 00:29:13.190 ⇒ 00:29:13.810 Uttam Kumaran: That’s fine.

274 00:29:15.870 ⇒ 00:29:16.470 Holly Condos: Alright.

275 00:29:16.470 ⇒ 00:29:17.060 Uttam Kumaran: Okay.

276 00:29:17.330 ⇒ 00:29:21.729 Holly Condos: So, on, ABC.

277 00:29:23.100 ⇒ 00:29:25.430 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, so for ABC.

278 00:29:26.370 ⇒ 00:29:26.950 Holly Condos: Yeah, let me…

279 00:29:26.950 ⇒ 00:29:30.279 Uttam Kumaran: I have, like, a deck and stuff that we presented to them.

280 00:29:30.280 ⇒ 00:29:31.450 Holly Condos: I saw the deck.

281 00:29:31.650 ⇒ 00:29:36.810 Uttam Kumaran: Okay, great. This is, like, a pure, like… I don’t know, this is probably the purest, like, consult… like…

282 00:29:38.240 ⇒ 00:29:47.530 Uttam Kumaran: this is what I assume folks at, like, BCG and things are doing, like, you walk into that sort of an area, and you’re like, tell me what’s wrong here, and what we should do.

283 00:29:47.600 ⇒ 00:29:48.720 Holly Condos: Yeah. You know?

284 00:29:48.760 ⇒ 00:29:54.439 Uttam Kumaran: So, my off… our offer to them was, like, it’s gonna be $30K, We’re gonna come in…

285 00:29:54.570 ⇒ 00:29:57.930 Uttam Kumaran: I said… I said 6 weeks because of Christmas.

286 00:29:58.200 ⇒ 00:30:04.280 Uttam Kumaran: But basically, we are going to…

287 00:30:05.070 ⇒ 00:30:08.580 Uttam Kumaran: We have those clear deliverables, and then we have a few, like.

288 00:30:09.470 ⇒ 00:30:19.050 Uttam Kumaran: these, like, prototype deliverables, so that’s for the first thing. There’s also this ANDI piece, of which I priced… I just increased it a little bit in our last one.

289 00:30:19.260 ⇒ 00:30:20.680 Uttam Kumaran: But I guess my… yeah.

290 00:30:20.960 ⇒ 00:30:25.450 Holly Condos: Sorry to interrupt you, but is there any Brain Forges…

291 00:30:25.860 ⇒ 00:30:28.999 Holly Condos: No, it’s theirs. Okay. We develop…

292 00:30:29.000 ⇒ 00:30:31.280 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, we developed… we developed it

293 00:30:31.510 ⇒ 00:30:34.569 Uttam Kumaran: for them. It is their owned IP.

294 00:30:34.680 ⇒ 00:30:39.580 Uttam Kumaran: Okay. But we are pricing it on a performance basis about… on the adoption of it.

295 00:30:40.000 ⇒ 00:30:54.599 Uttam Kumaran: So this was the deal that got us into this client, because they liked me and what we were pitching, because I said I don’t want to get paid unless this chatbot actually gets used. Yeah. And if it gets used, I guarantee you… and we were gonna think about, like.

296 00:30:54.750 ⇒ 00:31:02.350 Uttam Kumaran: the downstream KPIs, and I was like, let’s keep it simple. If it gets used, you’re gonna see the benefit, and it’s been working great.

297 00:31:02.420 ⇒ 00:31:03.590 Holly Condos: Okay.

298 00:31:03.590 ⇒ 00:31:06.029 Uttam Kumaran: And because we got this bigger deal.

299 00:31:06.140 ⇒ 00:31:16.709 Uttam Kumaran: I’m not as concerned about, like, ratcheting this up more. I’m, in fact… we’re… I just… we’re pushing… more of the onus to get this adopted is on their team.

300 00:31:16.820 ⇒ 00:31:18.170 Uttam Kumaran: So… Okay.

301 00:31:18.400 ⇒ 00:31:27.909 Uttam Kumaran: basically, they’re… I’m pretty sure they’ll be comfortable with this. I think my questions are gonna be, are these separate agreements?

302 00:31:28.130 ⇒ 00:31:29.180 Uttam Kumaran: And…

303 00:31:30.150 ⇒ 00:31:35.100 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I guess that’s my first question, like, should these be… should these be separated? Like, or are these…

304 00:31:35.100 ⇒ 00:31:42.390 Holly Condos: That’s my initial take, but that was before I understood that you created Andy for them.

305 00:31:42.390 ⇒ 00:31:43.260 Uttam Kumaran: theirs, yeah.

306 00:31:43.770 ⇒ 00:31:55.260 Holly Condos: Okay, so in that… context, You’re calling it a subscription, but what are… what is… Are you providing support?

307 00:31:55.600 ⇒ 00:32:11.720 Uttam Kumaran: Well, I… yeah, I guess maybe subscription is not the right… we are… we are a couple things. We are providing, like, an ongoing development cycle, like, we… we’re constantly looking to upgrade, to improve, and maintenance and support.

308 00:32:11.840 ⇒ 00:32:12.880 Holly Condos: Okay.

309 00:32:12.880 ⇒ 00:32:15.290 Uttam Kumaran: you know, of the system.

310 00:32:15.560 ⇒ 00:32:24.770 Uttam Kumaran: And then, of course, we’re handling reporting of the system performance and aiding in the adoption of the system.

311 00:32:25.850 ⇒ 00:32:29.730 Holly Condos: So, how did you come up with the… tiered pricing.

312 00:32:29.970 ⇒ 00:32:30.730 Holly Condos: Is that based.

313 00:32:30.730 ⇒ 00:32:31.280 Uttam Kumaran: What’s so much!

314 00:32:31.280 ⇒ 00:32:32.540 Holly Condos: You just said?

315 00:32:33.400 ⇒ 00:32:36.790 Uttam Kumaran: So we… so we had a… we had a tiered pricing before.

316 00:32:37.630 ⇒ 00:32:45.789 Uttam Kumaran: In our past contract, that was, like, a little bit… like, it was, like, $4, 500,$ 9,500 for a little bit cheaper.

317 00:32:45.790 ⇒ 00:32:46.230 Holly Condos: Okay.

318 00:32:46.230 ⇒ 00:32:53.300 Uttam Kumaran: I just rounded these up, because we also now have 6 months of usage data, So… like…

319 00:32:53.560 ⇒ 00:33:01.249 Uttam Kumaran: I know that we can… we’re gonna end up breaking the 5K here soon, the 5,000 sessions here soon.

320 00:33:01.360 ⇒ 00:33:10.890 Uttam Kumaran: And for them, I wanted to sign a deal so that they don’t get dinged for more usage. Our initial thinking was this is almost like priced, sort of like a cell phone plan.

321 00:33:11.100 ⇒ 00:33:13.660 Holly Condos: So, to give you, like, the.

322 00:33:14.160 ⇒ 00:33:25.650 Uttam Kumaran: the thought process here is, like, I don’t know, this is a time where we tried to do something unique, where I was like, I want to develop an AI solution for them. They can’t afford if I priced it as, like, development.

323 00:33:25.790 ⇒ 00:33:41.889 Uttam Kumaran: But instead, I want to work with them not only to develop it, but I want to get paid if it gets used. And that’s, like, a… I’m willing to take the risk on for that. They were also very happy with that, of course, because nobody’s going to do that. And so… and so…

324 00:33:42.500 ⇒ 00:33:54.000 Uttam Kumaran: What we’ve been doing is almost basically running this product for them, internal product, and we are, like, doing product management, reporting, and development.

325 00:33:54.090 ⇒ 00:34:05.820 Uttam Kumaran: And… and we’re driving the… we’re helping them drive the adoption of this, which is having really tremendous effects on their customer service side of the business. Okay. You know, so that’s, like.

326 00:34:06.280 ⇒ 00:34:08.419 Uttam Kumaran: That’s why we ended up with this.

327 00:34:08.739 ⇒ 00:34:14.969 Uttam Kumaran: Which they’ve been comfortable with. So this is more of, like, getting kind of into, like, strategy, but I felt that

328 00:34:16.300 ⇒ 00:34:35.309 Uttam Kumaran: I felt that when I was looking at the market of people that were developing AI apps, most of the developers were not on the hook for the fact that it worked and it got adopted. And instead, what they were doing was charging 30, 40, 50K to develop a chatbot, and then be like, here you go. And I didn’t feel like that was.

329 00:34:35.310 ⇒ 00:34:36.769 Holly Condos: And walk away. Yeah.

330 00:34:36.770 ⇒ 00:34:40.410 Uttam Kumaran: I didn’t feel like that was correct, and I don’t have fear about…

331 00:34:41.010 ⇒ 00:34:56.360 Uttam Kumaran: us getting it to work, and I actually want the customer bought in on moving up these tiers with us, and showing that, hey, even… yes, your price is going up, but your cost per session, is going down, you know?

332 00:34:56.360 ⇒ 00:35:02.310 Holly Condos: Right. And look at the automated outcomes that you’re experiencing because of.

333 00:35:02.670 ⇒ 00:35:08.019 Uttam Kumaran: Totally, and we proved that… we proved that within the first 30 days of this getting used.

334 00:35:08.020 ⇒ 00:35:09.080 Holly Condos: I’ll have that in the chat.

335 00:35:09.400 ⇒ 00:35:10.010 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.

336 00:35:10.180 ⇒ 00:35:20.279 Holly Condos: Okay, so… so your thought is that the ANDI development support maintenance is going to go longer than 6 weeks, right?

337 00:35:20.550 ⇒ 00:35:23.230 Uttam Kumaran: For sure. Yeah, I want to sign probably a 6-month…

338 00:35:23.640 ⇒ 00:35:24.800 Holly Condos: So, I mean…

339 00:35:24.800 ⇒ 00:35:25.779 Uttam Kumaran: month agreement on that.

340 00:35:25.780 ⇒ 00:35:30.079 Holly Condos: I think it should be… To a separate contract?

341 00:35:30.870 ⇒ 00:35:34.450 Holly Condos: But… but, having said that, if…

342 00:35:34.630 ⇒ 00:35:43.090 Holly Condos: ABC is already… like, when you did the first contract to develop, Andy, I’m assuming that…

343 00:35:43.200 ⇒ 00:35:51.339 Holly Condos: I should have gone and looked at it, I’m sorry. But I’m guessing that you put it very similarly like this, right?

344 00:35:51.590 ⇒ 00:35:51.980 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.

345 00:35:51.980 ⇒ 00:35:54.090 Holly Condos: But the language…

346 00:35:54.090 ⇒ 00:35:57.119 Uttam Kumaran: The language was not great.

347 00:35:57.410 ⇒ 00:36:03.219 Uttam Kumaran: So I want to be very explicit that we don’t own the solution.

348 00:36:03.500 ⇒ 00:36:07.379 Uttam Kumaran: I don’t think we… when we drafted that initial contract.

349 00:36:08.850 ⇒ 00:36:21.030 Uttam Kumaran: I don’t know whether I was, like, thinking this could end up being a more managed service or whatever, but I just didn’t make it clear, and that’s leading to some confusion, especially on how we’re taxed for this engagement, so I want to make it very…

350 00:36:21.030 ⇒ 00:36:23.360 Holly Condos: It’s a cause, yeah.

351 00:36:23.360 ⇒ 00:36:32.089 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, well, it ends up being, like, we have to… we… because we don’t do sales tax, because we’re pure service, but, like, if we… if we have to do sales tax for one client, we have to do it

352 00:36:32.430 ⇒ 00:36:35.739 Uttam Kumaran: threat. We have to, like, start reporting. It’s, like, a pain, so…

353 00:36:35.740 ⇒ 00:36:36.510 Holly Condos: Right, yeah.

354 00:36:36.510 ⇒ 00:36:37.530 Uttam Kumaran: make a bear, I want…

355 00:36:37.720 ⇒ 00:36:46.990 Uttam Kumaran: And I talked to… I talked to Matt Burns, their CFO, yesterday about this, and he… and so, basically, we’re move… like, I want them to own this whole thing, I want to be very explicit, it’s theirs.

356 00:36:48.130 ⇒ 00:36:49.790 Uttam Kumaran: And we’re just here to… to…

357 00:36:50.480 ⇒ 00:36:52.379 Uttam Kumaran: To support it and drive adoption.

358 00:36:52.590 ⇒ 00:36:56.899 Holly Condos: Are we… is BrainForge, like, hosting it?

359 00:36:57.600 ⇒ 00:37:06.620 Uttam Kumaran: That is… that is what we are basically migrating everything to them now. Most of it has been on their… on their,

360 00:37:07.440 ⇒ 00:37:08.690 Uttam Kumaran: Like, on their end.

361 00:37:08.870 ⇒ 00:37:16.850 Uttam Kumaran: So there’s a part of it that still isn’t, because we just were bogged down by development. That is the kind of the key piece that got brought up.

362 00:37:16.990 ⇒ 00:37:21.690 Uttam Kumaran: And so I was like, okay, we’re gonna drop everything and move this over to you, because it’s starting to get, like.

363 00:37:21.970 ⇒ 00:37:23.020 Holly Condos: Yeah. Good.

364 00:37:23.020 ⇒ 00:37:32.039 Uttam Kumaran: Megan on our side is like, we have to start filing tax, and I’m like, I don’t want to deal with any of this, and she was like, I’m like, it’s not ours, I don’t want this, this is not our software.

365 00:37:32.040 ⇒ 00:37:44.820 Holly Condos: Okay, okay, so based on all of that, then I think we don’t do a separate agreement, because as soon as you create a EULA or a managed service contract, you’re gonna start getting into that

366 00:37:45.000 ⇒ 00:37:47.300 Holly Condos: whole… muddiness.

367 00:37:47.610 ⇒ 00:37:48.280 Uttam Kumaran: Yes.

368 00:37:48.660 ⇒ 00:37:51.270 Holly Condos: So why don’t we call it,

369 00:37:52.170 ⇒ 00:37:55.980 Holly Condos: Support, or something other than subscription.

370 00:37:56.170 ⇒ 00:37:57.690 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I’m happy to.

371 00:37:58.780 ⇒ 00:38:03.709 Uttam Kumaran: Right? Yeah, support, support, like, adoption support, product development support.

372 00:38:06.680 ⇒ 00:38:11.539 Holly Condos: Let’s do adoption and development support.

373 00:38:19.340 ⇒ 00:38:23.740 Holly Condos: Because it’s… that’s still within the spirit of providing a service.

374 00:38:24.790 ⇒ 00:38:25.520 Uttam Kumaran: Yes.

375 00:38:26.040 ⇒ 00:38:30.020 Holly Condos: And then, why don’t we…

376 00:38:32.970 ⇒ 00:38:38.490 Holly Condos: Any development, maintenance, analytics, or other services outside the session model?

377 00:38:38.740 ⇒ 00:38:41.720 Holly Condos: She’ll be separately scoped and priced.

378 00:38:41.920 ⇒ 00:38:42.890 Holly Condos: Hmm.

379 00:38:43.730 ⇒ 00:38:45.469 Holly Condos: Okay, what do you mean by that?

380 00:38:47.220 ⇒ 00:38:50.890 Holly Condos: Because doesn’t this include development, maintenance?

381 00:38:51.950 ⇒ 00:38:54.340 Uttam Kumaran: But that’s all under the AI.

382 00:38:55.110 ⇒ 00:38:59.949 Uttam Kumaran: So, I’m not married to any of the language, like, in this doc at all.

383 00:39:00.160 ⇒ 00:39:07.419 Uttam Kumaran: I think Rico just copy-pasted what was in the last doc. So, any maintenance outside of the… oh, so basically, like.

384 00:39:07.590 ⇒ 00:39:13.839 Uttam Kumaran: For example, they were like, this is why we signed this discovery thing, because they wanted our help in a bunch of other areas in the company.

385 00:39:14.320 ⇒ 00:39:18.280 Uttam Kumaran: And I hadn’t… like, I wanted to make it clear that, like.

386 00:39:18.730 ⇒ 00:39:21.639 Uttam Kumaran: We had to sign another contract for that stuff.

387 00:39:21.640 ⇒ 00:39:24.919 Holly Condos: Say, unrelated to…

388 00:39:26.530 ⇒ 00:39:28.370 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, like, the anti-development.

389 00:39:28.370 ⇒ 00:39:32.060 Holly Condos: The… Yeah, Mandy.

390 00:39:48.500 ⇒ 00:39:56.449 Holly Condos: I dropped coffee on my laptop and some of my keys stick still, and I’m still migrating over to a new laptop, so I’m just, like, you know…

391 00:39:58.490 ⇒ 00:40:00.880 Holly Condos: challenged a little bit. Okay,

392 00:40:08.620 ⇒ 00:40:13.159 Holly Condos: Okay, or other services unrelated to this?

393 00:40:18.650 ⇒ 00:40:21.020 Holly Condos: She’ll be separately scoped and priced.

394 00:40:22.380 ⇒ 00:40:23.480 Holly Condos: Is that okay?

395 00:40:24.030 ⇒ 00:40:24.949 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, that’s fine.

396 00:40:25.990 ⇒ 00:40:33.680 Holly Condos: Yeah, so that makes a lot more sense. So… so then let’s, I’ll just… we don’t need to have this comment.

397 00:40:40.250 ⇒ 00:40:47.740 Holly Condos: And then you wanted to make sure or clear that they own it, so how about we say,

398 00:40:51.160 ⇒ 00:40:57.629 Holly Condos: The… well, do you want to say it here, or do you think it’s… it’s already implicit that they know they own it?

399 00:40:58.090 ⇒ 00:40:58.960 Uttam Kumaran: No, I was…

400 00:40:58.960 ⇒ 00:41:00.380 Holly Condos: owned Andy?

401 00:41:01.200 ⇒ 00:41:02.740 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I would say that, yeah.

402 00:41:24.480 ⇒ 00:41:29.410 Holly Condos: And if they want to move from Tier 1 to Tier 2, they just need to tell you?

403 00:41:29.460 ⇒ 00:41:31.200 Uttam Kumaran: With 7 days notice?

404 00:41:36.070 ⇒ 00:41:37.140 Holly Condos: See that?

405 00:41:38.480 ⇒ 00:41:42.709 Uttam Kumaran: the company may upgrade tiers. Well, I guess also, like.

406 00:41:44.080 ⇒ 00:41:45.450 Holly Condos: Doesn’t the.

407 00:41:45.450 ⇒ 00:41:45.870 Uttam Kumaran: We are…

408 00:41:45.870 ⇒ 00:41:47.929 Holly Condos: Wasn’t it driven by the usage?

409 00:41:48.100 ⇒ 00:41:54.050 Uttam Kumaran: Yes, so we are going to be telling them Sad, yeah.

410 00:41:54.180 ⇒ 00:42:01.899 Uttam Kumaran: So, basically, maybe we should put, like, within 7 days of breaching the tier…

411 00:42:03.680 ⇒ 00:42:04.580 Holly Condos: We have…

412 00:42:04.860 ⇒ 00:42:08.199 Uttam Kumaran: written confirmation, or, like, we don’t even have to put… I mean…

413 00:42:09.110 ⇒ 00:42:18.650 Uttam Kumaran: to give you, like, what operationally happened, like, Amber on our side will notice, hey, we’re above tier, and then she’ll say, hey, Matt, we’re above tier.

414 00:42:19.220 ⇒ 00:42:23.230 Uttam Kumaran: Yay, let’s… we’re gonna upgrade our… Invoicing.

415 00:42:25.050 ⇒ 00:42:31.120 Holly Condos: Okay, let’s just take… Because they don’t need to give you notice, is the point, right?

416 00:42:31.120 ⇒ 00:42:32.080 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

417 00:42:41.560 ⇒ 00:42:45.590 Holly Condos: Okay, ABC session usage…

418 00:42:48.870 ⇒ 00:42:55.170 Holly Condos: Over and above… the current tier…

419 00:43:02.140 ⇒ 00:43:05.289 Holly Condos: Oh, do you want the selected monthly tier? Sorry.

420 00:43:11.390 ⇒ 00:43:18.470 Uttam Kumaran: And then, like, for example, we were, like, after Tier 4, Everything is… 85 cents.

421 00:43:23.540 ⇒ 00:43:28.259 Holly Condos: Okay, let’s see. So, it’s two, two concepts. So, if they’re in.

422 00:43:28.260 ⇒ 00:43:34.279 Uttam Kumaran: Well, it’s just like… yeah, it’s just sort of like you’re buying a phone plan, and then if you get to the… if you get to the highest, and then you’re…

423 00:43:34.450 ⇒ 00:43:36.000 Uttam Kumaran: You breach that.

424 00:43:36.390 ⇒ 00:43:39.630 Uttam Kumaran: You get billed per gig, you know, after that.

425 00:44:00.520 ⇒ 00:44:01.410 Holly Condos: I’m right.

426 00:44:04.240 ⇒ 00:44:04.880 Uttam Kumaran: Yes.

427 00:44:05.530 ⇒ 00:44:06.100 Holly Condos: Okay.

428 00:44:08.180 ⇒ 00:44:11.240 Holly Condos: Yeah, so I think we don’t need a separate agreement.

429 00:44:12.070 ⇒ 00:44:19.930 Holly Condos: But, you know, let’s revisit that, because if you start doing this for other customers, this model.

430 00:44:20.520 ⇒ 00:44:24.029 Holly Condos: Then maybe we want to think about doing a managed service?

431 00:44:24.210 ⇒ 00:44:31.490 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, no, I agree. If we talk about strategy, yes, like, maybe this would be better to own this code, and to…

432 00:44:31.760 ⇒ 00:44:37.740 Uttam Kumaran: to consider the implications of doing that. This is the only one where Yeah, I agree, I agree.

433 00:44:38.660 ⇒ 00:44:39.750 Holly Condos: And also, I think.

434 00:44:39.750 ⇒ 00:44:42.259 Uttam Kumaran: This was, like, to give you a sense, this was, like, maybe…

435 00:44:43.290 ⇒ 00:44:49.240 Uttam Kumaran: February or January, it seems like 10 years ago, yeah. So…

436 00:44:49.240 ⇒ 00:44:49.750 Holly Condos: I gotcha.

437 00:44:49.750 ⇒ 00:44:54.049 Uttam Kumaran: We… yeah, I think I started talking to them…

438 00:44:54.360 ⇒ 00:45:03.809 Uttam Kumaran: In, like, October of last year, so… we just were… at this point, I was just trying to get money in the door on anything we could sell. Understood.

439 00:45:03.810 ⇒ 00:45:07.129 Holly Condos: Yeah, understood. This is a good result, right?

440 00:45:07.330 ⇒ 00:45:19.550 Uttam Kumaran: Oh, I mean, amazing! And I… yeah, we presented to this. So, ABC Home and Commercial is a very historic business here in Central Texas. Like, one of the most well-known, like, community-loved.

441 00:45:19.650 ⇒ 00:45:37.369 Uttam Kumaran: businesses, they’ve been in business for quite a while. Like, the guy that started it handed it to his kid, his kid is now the CEO, it’s like this guy named… this guy named Bobby Jenkins, he’s maybe in his 60s, and his son runs sales. It’s like a family-owned business.

442 00:45:37.760 ⇒ 00:45:47.700 Uttam Kumaran: They have 17 different services. They operate in San Antonio, Austin, Dallas. Like, their main claim to fame is pest control. They’re the leading pest control company.

443 00:45:47.700 ⇒ 00:45:50.109 Holly Condos: Okay. But they, they offer lawn.

444 00:45:50.160 ⇒ 00:45:53.160 Uttam Kumaran: holiday lights, God…

445 00:45:53.240 ⇒ 00:46:04.850 Uttam Kumaran: garage door opener, like, I just know. And one of the problems is that their business is stagnating. They’re… and… but they’re very well known. Like, if I walked out, and I stood on the road for…

446 00:46:04.860 ⇒ 00:46:23.240 Uttam Kumaran: probably 5 minutes, I would see one of their trucks go by. Yeah. So, they’re in a growing market with pest control at a loan, but growing market in home services, yet their business is stagnating. They’ve relied on, like, pretty legacy sales tactics and marketing tactics. They don’t do…

447 00:46:23.240 ⇒ 00:46:36.170 Uttam Kumaran: they don’t have a lot of visibility, so they don’t… very little in terms of analytics reporting, and very little ability to, like, ask a question and get an answer. So, this sort of goes into where Robert and I want our business to go into, which is, like.

448 00:46:36.170 ⇒ 00:46:56.369 Uttam Kumaran: supporting companies with what we call, like, decision intelligence, right? And that’s a mix of AI and data, but ultimately, we are helping them drive more decisions and more accurate decisions. And so for them, we’re not only saying, cool, we’re gonna go and I’m gonna talk to everybody, I’m gonna see everything, I’m gonna leave you at the month with a deck on, like, all of our recommendations.

449 00:46:56.370 ⇒ 00:47:02.789 Uttam Kumaran: I’m gonna leave with their CMO, who’s another older guy, he’s… he’s ending up… he’s, like, retiring.

450 00:47:03.000 ⇒ 00:47:12.150 Uttam Kumaran: And so they don’t have any backfill for that guy, and they don’t even know what he knows or anything, so we’re like, second thing is we’re gonna put a memo of, like, everything in his brain.

451 00:47:12.150 ⇒ 00:47:13.170 Holly Condos: less… less.

452 00:47:13.170 ⇒ 00:47:25.149 Uttam Kumaran: That’s the last thing. Yeah, the third thing is sort of, like, what changes do you need from, like, a platform perspective? And then also, we were like, we will prescribe you a couple of changes to make. Ideally, some of those are things

453 00:47:25.150 ⇒ 00:47:34.689 Uttam Kumaran: that Brainforce can support with. Some of those are things your existing marketing agencies should do, some of those things, maybe internally or externally, you should go source from. So, sort of giving them this package.

454 00:47:34.750 ⇒ 00:47:46.669 Uttam Kumaran: I… the CEO literally looked at me, he’s like, we are… our business is not growing, we are the best in town, we offer the best service, we have the best client outcomes, and we’re losing the private equity.

455 00:47:46.810 ⇒ 00:47:47.700 Uttam Kumaran: And he’s like.

456 00:47:48.060 ⇒ 00:48:01.980 Uttam Kumaran: he looked at that slide. It’s funny, because I… I was gonna severely underprice this one. I called Robert yesterday. He’s like, do 20 for this, 30 for this. I went and he literally looked at me, he’s like, I want the Cadillac option, which is funny. I need to, like, frame that.

457 00:48:01.980 ⇒ 00:48:04.029 Holly Condos: I told you that he thought it was too low.

458 00:48:04.780 ⇒ 00:48:05.670 Holly Condos: Right?

459 00:48:06.460 ⇒ 00:48:09.290 Holly Condos: I mean, yeah, you’re gonna make me cry now, but yes.

460 00:48:09.430 ⇒ 00:48:11.839 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah. That’s okay.

461 00:48:11.840 ⇒ 00:48:13.299 Holly Condos: I totally get the.

462 00:48:13.300 ⇒ 00:48:23.129 Uttam Kumaran: No, no, but I basically told him, look, I said exactly what Robert mentioned to me, which is, like, these are typically $100,000, 2-3 month things that BCG, Deloitte will do.

463 00:48:23.130 ⇒ 00:48:25.909 Holly Condos: We’re gonna do it for $30K in one month.

464 00:48:25.910 ⇒ 00:48:32.359 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah. And you’re gonna get way more out of it, and you already do business with us, so it was a no-brainer for him.

465 00:48:32.360 ⇒ 00:48:33.350 Holly Condos: Yeah.

466 00:48:33.350 ⇒ 00:48:37.349 Uttam Kumaran: But I could see the, kind of the fear in his eyes about, he’s like, I don’t know…

467 00:48:37.520 ⇒ 00:48:43.429 Uttam Kumaran: where this is, like, how… I don’t know what to do next, like, nobody in my company is giving me options.

468 00:48:43.430 ⇒ 00:48:43.890 Holly Condos: Mmm.

469 00:48:43.890 ⇒ 00:48:53.350 Uttam Kumaran: Into, like, how we progress. We’re just doing the same old, same old. We don’t know how to, like… So, it was a really good thing. Again, this is the first time where I’ve pitched something like this, so…

470 00:48:54.060 ⇒ 00:49:09.620 Uttam Kumaran: Certainly, one of the things that we have to figure… we have to get better on is, like, putting these concise packages together, so I… we don’t have to talk pricing every time, and then it’s sort of like a… and now that we… we just had a really good, like, month, so I’m… I’m now able to…

471 00:49:10.030 ⇒ 00:49:12.610 Uttam Kumaran: But less… less elastic on the pricing.

472 00:49:12.840 ⇒ 00:49:19.780 Holly Condos: Okay, that’s good. But yeah, I think, I think having some pricing

473 00:49:20.030 ⇒ 00:49:22.600 Holly Condos: You know, menus would be helpful.

474 00:49:23.190 ⇒ 00:49:27.959 Holly Condos: So that you can at least come in with the standard, and then if you need to discount.

475 00:49:28.080 ⇒ 00:49:33.899 Holly Condos: Or tweak for a particular customer, you can do that, but at least, you know, it’s pretty much fixed.

476 00:49:34.440 ⇒ 00:49:39.789 Uttam Kumaran: Yes, yes. So we, we, I basically don’t want to,

477 00:49:40.630 ⇒ 00:49:43.429 Uttam Kumaran: like, I kind of don’t want to share…

478 00:49:43.670 ⇒ 00:49:48.749 Uttam Kumaran: Anything that isn’t sort of associated with… Like, an offer anymore.

479 00:49:49.030 ⇒ 00:49:53.240 Uttam Kumaran: Like, I think… Yeah, like, maybe I’ll show you a quick…

480 00:49:53.600 ⇒ 00:49:54.010 Holly Condos: Sure.

481 00:49:54.010 ⇒ 00:49:57.780 Uttam Kumaran: So, a friend of mine we’re potentially

482 00:49:59.570 ⇒ 00:50:05.760 Uttam Kumaran: I’m kind of, like, hopeful that he’s gonna… I mean, at least he’s gonna come in and do some consulting for us, but…

483 00:50:05.760 ⇒ 00:50:06.190 Holly Condos: Okay, good.

484 00:50:06.190 ⇒ 00:50:11.060 Uttam Kumaran: trying to pitch him on joining us. He was about to be a partner at UI for their AI.

485 00:50:11.060 ⇒ 00:50:11.640 Holly Condos: Oh, wow.

486 00:50:11.640 ⇒ 00:50:16.080 Uttam Kumaran: AI tax divisions, and he quit and started his own company.

487 00:50:16.370 ⇒ 00:50:19.150 Uttam Kumaran: And then just sold that for a little bit of money.

488 00:50:20.480 ⇒ 00:50:28.140 Uttam Kumaran: And I’m trying to get him to work with us, but been a really, really good friend. One of the things that he wanted to share with me was,

489 00:50:28.780 ⇒ 00:50:31.980 Uttam Kumaran: Let’s see…

490 00:50:35.620 ⇒ 00:50:36.790 Uttam Kumaran: like this.

491 00:50:37.110 ⇒ 00:50:41.800 Uttam Kumaran: Which he was like, you have, like, operationalized consulting.

492 00:50:42.170 ⇒ 00:50:42.500 Holly Condos: Yeah.

493 00:50:42.500 ⇒ 00:50:46.019 Uttam Kumaran: These are, like, high-volume, like, set up your stove, like.

494 00:50:46.290 ⇒ 00:50:49.239 Uttam Kumaran: set up your dbt, right? That stuff?

495 00:50:49.240 ⇒ 00:50:49.640 Holly Condos: Right?

496 00:50:49.640 ⇒ 00:50:50.709 Uttam Kumaran: Where he’s like.

497 00:50:51.020 ⇒ 00:50:55.350 Uttam Kumaran: you can keep getting a bunch of those at, like, $5,$ 10K. They’re never gonna be, like.

498 00:50:55.600 ⇒ 00:51:11.320 Uttam Kumaran: huge revenue, like, you’re gonna have to do a lot of that business, but because they’re, like, cut and paste, cut and paste, you can do a lot of them. Product-sized consulting, this is, like, more predictable outcomes, this is, like, fixed price, fixed offering, and then you have this bespoke consulting.

499 00:51:11.850 ⇒ 00:51:13.959 Uttam Kumaran: this is where I think it’s, like.

500 00:51:14.070 ⇒ 00:51:20.909 Uttam Kumaran: The value prop, as he mentioned, is, like, hire us because we’re smart, But very tough to scale.

501 00:51:21.050 ⇒ 00:51:26.100 Uttam Kumaran: You know, so this slide, I got dinner with them on Sunday, and this was helpful.

502 00:51:26.500 ⇒ 00:51:27.390 Uttam Kumaran: To think through.

503 00:51:27.390 ⇒ 00:51:30.140 Holly Condos: Yeah, and I think that… that is…

504 00:51:30.140 ⇒ 00:51:31.320 Uttam Kumaran: this, this stock, yeah.

505 00:51:31.320 ⇒ 00:51:36.539 Holly Condos: Okay, yeah, certainly a way of looking at it, but yeah, I think that might be a good model.

506 00:51:37.050 ⇒ 00:51:39.860 Holly Condos: To at least Explore.

507 00:51:40.530 ⇒ 00:51:50.529 Uttam Kumaran: And we’re putting together, like, what are our services, what are the offers associated, what are the packages to start. Right now, everything is sort of in, like…

508 00:51:51.040 ⇒ 00:51:56.049 Uttam Kumaran: this, and getting to this. We do very little of this.

509 00:51:56.050 ⇒ 00:51:56.590 Holly Condos: Yeah.

510 00:51:56.590 ⇒ 00:52:01.519 Uttam Kumaran: Which is a sh… which we should be doing… More of this, yeah.

511 00:52:01.720 ⇒ 00:52:02.270 Holly Condos: Yeah.

512 00:52:02.950 ⇒ 00:52:09.580 Uttam Kumaran: And then the other thing that he sort of… in this deck, you’ll see, we’re talking a bit, like, what does the org structure need to be to support this? Like.

513 00:52:09.580 ⇒ 00:52:10.290 Holly Condos: Right.

514 00:52:10.290 ⇒ 00:52:14.780 Uttam Kumaran: And so, we’re talking a little bit about, like,

515 00:52:15.780 ⇒ 00:52:21.049 Uttam Kumaran: can we move to, like, more of, like, a GM model? Like, hey, we bring on someone, you own this, like, service.

516 00:52:21.190 ⇒ 00:52:25.819 Uttam Kumaran: Right? And you get… there’s a million dollars… there’s a million dollar book of business here.

517 00:52:26.540 ⇒ 00:52:32.209 Uttam Kumaran: here’s Brainforge’s… Brainforge is vague as this. After that, it’s up to you to kind of own.

518 00:52:32.400 ⇒ 00:52:36.100 Uttam Kumaran: And what we’re finding is that, and this is just where, like.

519 00:52:36.430 ⇒ 00:52:41.520 Uttam Kumaran: as I started this business, I’ve met a lot of people that have also

520 00:52:41.700 ⇒ 00:52:44.600 Uttam Kumaran: tried to start this, or… or doing this, and there’s no.

521 00:52:44.600 ⇒ 00:52:45.110 Holly Condos: zoo.

522 00:52:45.370 ⇒ 00:52:55.570 Uttam Kumaran: there’s a big graveyard, and I… we were, like, close to that, and, like, and I understand how difficult this is, so one of the things that Robert and I are trying to go is go after some of those people that

523 00:52:55.680 ⇒ 00:53:13.029 Uttam Kumaran: they’re not… they don’t want to work in a company anymore, internally. They do… they want to go do a consulting business. What they didn’t realize is the gap between, like, hey, it’s just me as a freelancer, or, like, one or two people offshore, and where we’re at is really…

524 00:53:13.170 ⇒ 00:53:15.079 Uttam Kumaran: Like, it’s an intense, it’s like…

525 00:53:15.360 ⇒ 00:53:18.069 Uttam Kumaran: Shackleton’s journey, you know? It’s, like, not possible.

526 00:53:18.820 ⇒ 00:53:20.440 Uttam Kumaran: And so…

527 00:53:20.440 ⇒ 00:53:21.829 Holly Condos: Oh my gosh.

528 00:53:21.830 ⇒ 00:53:23.149 Uttam Kumaran: I… it’s like my…

529 00:53:23.150 ⇒ 00:53:24.020 Holly Condos: Drive it.

530 00:53:24.310 ⇒ 00:53:41.270 Uttam Kumaran: Even for us, I don’t, like, we… I feel it’s a very… I feel very, very lucky that we’re… we seem to be turning a corner, but I want to go to them and say, hey, the tough part was never the engineering work. It’s actually, like, the business model and the sales. Like, getting the sale is really, really tough, especially.

531 00:53:41.270 ⇒ 00:53:42.770 Holly Condos: That’s the hardest part.

532 00:53:42.770 ⇒ 00:53:44.329 Uttam Kumaran: For this sort of, like.

533 00:53:44.840 ⇒ 00:53:51.340 Uttam Kumaran: demographic or, like, type of person, like an engineer, you know, who was running a technical firm very hard. So I said, like, look.

534 00:53:52.020 ⇒ 00:54:08.760 Uttam Kumaran: what you want is, like, the still ability to work on multiple clients and have that feeling. What you don’t want, and what you may not be good at, and hopefully those are both, is this, like, to do the go-to-market, everything. Have Brainforge do both the go-to-market and supply…

535 00:54:09.400 ⇒ 00:54:15.639 Uttam Kumaran: resourcing, and you run the clients, and execute the clients. Right. You know, and…

536 00:54:16.020 ⇒ 00:54:34.300 Uttam Kumaran: And, like, you can still make a good amount of money, you still get a lot of unlock, and you can pass that on to us. And we’re looking for the people that still have that type of agency, that, like, want to do that. Exactly, yeah. And so we’re talking to some people. I mean, of course, the problem is some people are still, like, no, I want to do my own thing. They’re like, you can hire me for $2.50 an hour. I’m like.

537 00:54:34.300 ⇒ 00:54:38.010 Holly Condos: Good luck. No. You know, there’s also some people that are, like.

538 00:54:38.130 ⇒ 00:54:45.730 Holly Condos: they’ve been trying to figure out the go-to-market thing, and they’ve just not made the right investments, or didn’t have the skill set, and they’re, like, not ready.

539 00:54:45.730 ⇒ 00:54:47.330 Uttam Kumaran: But their options are, like.

540 00:54:47.830 ⇒ 00:55:02.720 Uttam Kumaran: either, like, continue to just burn the candle and, like, have a couple deals and, like, figure it out, or they’re like, hey, you guys have some deals, I would like to work them, I’m happy to take a haircut for stability. Yeah. And for them, they don’t want to go back into the labor market, like…

541 00:55:02.720 ⇒ 00:55:05.600 Holly Condos: Right, exactly, exactly, especially now.

542 00:55:05.750 ⇒ 00:55:06.729 Holly Condos: So, okay.

543 00:55:06.730 ⇒ 00:55:07.140 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.

544 00:55:07.140 ⇒ 00:55:11.809 Holly Condos: Yeah, that’s, yeah, I think that’s an interesting angle.

545 00:55:12.500 ⇒ 00:55:19.239 Uttam Kumaran: So we’re thinking about a couple different ways, because we need, like, sort of a… we’re trying to find, like, a little bit of, like, how do we build a, like, lieutenant class?

546 00:55:20.190 ⇒ 00:55:23.749 Uttam Kumaran: Here, next. As you can tell, like, I think that’s a lot of, like, what we’re…

547 00:55:24.770 ⇒ 00:55:29.190 Uttam Kumaran: what’s… what we’re struggling with. I mean, we’re getting better on the delivery side.

548 00:55:29.190 ⇒ 00:55:29.900 Holly Condos: Yeah.

549 00:55:29.900 ⇒ 00:55:31.450 Uttam Kumaran: But, like…

550 00:55:31.800 ⇒ 00:55:45.489 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, I feel like we’re… we’re… we have enough deals now where I want to get people that can run those end-to-end. Right. And I… the thing is, I don’t want… but I don’t want to do that in the way that typical consulting works, where those pe… those people are…

551 00:55:45.820 ⇒ 00:55:50.689 Uttam Kumaran: don’t want to go to Deloitte in these places, because you’re not going to get that ownership mentality.

552 00:55:50.690 ⇒ 00:55:51.860 Holly Condos: No.

553 00:55:51.860 ⇒ 00:55:57.489 Uttam Kumaran: And so, another thing… another thing I want to show you that I’m doing, and this is just… these are just all the creative ways that we’re…

554 00:55:57.490 ⇒ 00:55:57.840 Holly Condos: strange.

555 00:55:57.840 ⇒ 00:55:58.460 Uttam Kumaran: They’re like.

556 00:55:58.630 ⇒ 00:55:59.940 Holly Condos: Yeah, no, this is good.

557 00:56:00.140 ⇒ 00:56:03.930 Uttam Kumaran: So one thing that we have running is we have an automatic,

558 00:56:04.920 ⇒ 00:56:15.489 Uttam Kumaran: campaign going, to, like, hit up, people who are in this sort of Deloitte, PwC, EY, Censure, BCG,

559 00:56:15.950 ⇒ 00:56:17.170 Uttam Kumaran: Bane, sort of.

560 00:56:17.170 ⇒ 00:56:17.590 Holly Condos: Huh?

561 00:56:17.590 ⇒ 00:56:20.620 Uttam Kumaran: Arena, and we’re hitting them with messaging.

562 00:56:20.690 ⇒ 00:56:23.189 Holly Condos: Okay. For example, like, this guy.

563 00:56:23.350 ⇒ 00:56:29.909 Uttam Kumaran: what we’re trying to… maybe I’ll use pray, but what we’re trying to prey on is they’re… they’re probably pissed off.

564 00:56:29.980 ⇒ 00:56:47.520 Uttam Kumaran: the fact that they’re in Deloitte, it’s, like, super slow, they’re not getting to work with AI, but… and their path towards partners is not really clear, everything in the news is how all these people are gonna get laid off, and that’s happening, and so I messaged them, basically, and so his background is, like.

565 00:56:47.520 ⇒ 00:56:54.119 Uttam Kumaran: Great, like, done a lot of, like, analysis work, gotten in consulting, probably really loves consulting, loves to pace.

566 00:56:54.120 ⇒ 00:56:59.790 Holly Condos: These are the people that we need, and we don’t have a lot of senior consultants in our world, but…

567 00:56:59.790 ⇒ 00:57:06.839 Uttam Kumaran: I also don’t want to hire, like, just consultants. I want to hire consultants who have, like, a chip on their shoulder or something.

568 00:57:06.840 ⇒ 00:57:07.170 Holly Condos: Sure.

569 00:57:07.170 ⇒ 00:57:07.600 Uttam Kumaran: You know?

570 00:57:07.600 ⇒ 00:57:08.760 Holly Condos: Sure. That’s most of the people we…

571 00:57:08.760 ⇒ 00:57:09.090 Uttam Kumaran: higher.

572 00:57:09.090 ⇒ 00:57:10.010 Holly Condos: snappy.

573 00:57:10.450 ⇒ 00:57:17.939 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, so the… so we’re… we have an automated campaign going. It’s like, hey, we’re connecting with operators and data and AI of experience owning client outcomes inside.

574 00:57:17.940 ⇒ 00:57:18.300 Holly Condos: I can’t.

575 00:57:18.300 ⇒ 00:57:20.000 Uttam Kumaran: like Slores, would be great to connect.

576 00:57:20.000 ⇒ 00:57:20.450 Holly Condos: Yeah.

577 00:57:20.450 ⇒ 00:57:24.109 Uttam Kumaran: they connect with me, and then I run Brainforge. We’re scaling fast.

578 00:57:24.110 ⇒ 00:57:27.080 Holly Condos: We’re trying to hire people who want to run the business.

579 00:57:27.080 ⇒ 00:57:34.180 Uttam Kumaran: not just execute tasks. If you’re interested in the path that blends consulting, ownership, and leading a practice, I’d love to share how we work.

580 00:57:34.300 ⇒ 00:57:35.880 Uttam Kumaran: Your background stood out.

581 00:57:36.360 ⇒ 00:57:40.979 Uttam Kumaran: Like, we sort of, like, send this message, and we’re getting good people.

582 00:57:40.980 ⇒ 00:57:41.690 Holly Condos: Contraction.

583 00:57:41.970 ⇒ 00:57:43.340 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, good traction, like…

584 00:57:43.340 ⇒ 00:57:44.229 Holly Condos: Okay, good.

585 00:57:44.720 ⇒ 00:57:48.489 Uttam Kumaran: So, we are… we are starting to interview these types of folks.

586 00:57:48.490 ⇒ 00:57:48.960 Holly Condos: Perfect.

587 00:57:48.960 ⇒ 00:57:54.940 Uttam Kumaran: Ideally, these folks come in, and they have a path towards true, like, own a practice area.

588 00:57:54.940 ⇒ 00:57:55.270 Holly Condos: Right.

589 00:57:55.270 ⇒ 00:57:59.860 Uttam Kumaran: Versus, like, go to the end, client.

590 00:58:00.020 ⇒ 00:58:08.019 Uttam Kumaran: like, yeah, and also, like, there’s not much, like, politics in our business, like… No. It’s pretty pure consulting, and then.

591 00:58:08.020 ⇒ 00:58:08.340 Holly Condos: Yeah.

592 00:58:08.340 ⇒ 00:58:12.229 Uttam Kumaran: This ultimately allows Robert and I just to go do more selling, you know.

593 00:58:12.230 ⇒ 00:58:14.150 Holly Condos: Right, which is the goal, right?

594 00:58:14.150 ⇒ 00:58:15.019 Uttam Kumaran: Which is the goal?

595 00:58:15.020 ⇒ 00:58:21.289 Holly Condos: Yeah. No, that’s great. I think that that is, I think that’s a good campaign.

596 00:58:21.630 ⇒ 00:58:27.539 Holly Condos: And, again, knowing that this is what you’re looking for, I’ll look in my network.

597 00:58:27.540 ⇒ 00:58:30.050 Uttam Kumaran: If you have some pissed-off consultants, or people that are…

598 00:58:30.050 ⇒ 00:58:30.729 Holly Condos: I got some.

599 00:58:30.730 ⇒ 00:58:31.230 Uttam Kumaran: tired of…

600 00:58:31.230 ⇒ 00:58:31.960 Holly Condos: people.

601 00:58:32.300 ⇒ 00:58:33.210 Uttam Kumaran: I’m tired of.

602 00:58:33.210 ⇒ 00:58:33.880 Holly Condos: Britain.

603 00:58:34.440 ⇒ 00:58:37.829 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, well, that’s gonna be what they have to shake. Yeah.

604 00:58:38.030 ⇒ 00:58:42.990 Uttam Kumaran: So, the thing that these folks will have to shake if they enter this org is, like.

605 00:58:43.800 ⇒ 00:58:56.739 Uttam Kumaran: the pace, it will be quite different. Because for me to go compete, we can’t compete on, like, brand. So, and there’s a lot of people that can do the Snowflake 0 to 1.

606 00:58:56.740 ⇒ 00:58:57.110 Holly Condos: Right.

607 00:58:57.110 ⇒ 00:58:59.550 Uttam Kumaran: What we have to compete on is…

608 00:58:59.680 ⇒ 00:59:08.910 Uttam Kumaran: like, a unique way of blending data and AI for decision-making outcomes, and a rock star team in, like, a pace you’ve never seen before.

609 00:59:08.910 ⇒ 00:59:09.880 Holly Condos: Right, exactly.

610 00:59:09.890 ⇒ 00:59:18.169 Uttam Kumaran: that’s gonna be the way that I can start to charge really outsized amount, and then eventually the brand will kind of catch up as we do more of that.

611 00:59:18.410 ⇒ 00:59:20.920 Holly Condos: Yeah, but I think you’re right that,

612 00:59:22.910 ⇒ 00:59:28.660 Holly Condos: Like, just going from corporate to startup is one thing, but then the pace is different.

613 00:59:29.260 ⇒ 00:59:31.640 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, and this is… and this is also, like…

614 00:59:33.290 ⇒ 00:59:40.699 Uttam Kumaran: startup… I feel like the word startup for a lot of these folks implies that we have unlimited runway, and, like, they’re sort of not a measurement…

615 00:59:41.310 ⇒ 00:59:48.840 Uttam Kumaran: This is more of, like, I just want us… I want us to be closer to the Navy SEALs than, like, the Army Reserve, you know?

616 00:59:48.840 ⇒ 00:59:49.580 Holly Condos: Yeah, no.

617 00:59:49.580 ⇒ 00:59:56.329 Uttam Kumaran: I would rather have a smaller crew, and be able to breach 500 an hour, than, like…

618 00:59:57.410 ⇒ 01:00:07.399 Uttam Kumaran: go lower. I have no interest in that. And one of the things that Clarence, a lot of… a lot of times he’s talked about is just, like, every node we add into the network of Brainforge is a…

619 01:00:07.640 ⇒ 01:00:15.889 Uttam Kumaran: is just another part of the decision-making process. And there are some areas where there’s nobody, of course, so it’s not like, don’t hire anybody, but…

620 01:00:16.080 ⇒ 01:00:25.569 Uttam Kumaran: I just think we’ve shown that we can do a lot with very little people, and I would rather have less people pay everyone way more than market.

621 01:00:25.830 ⇒ 01:00:26.310 Holly Condos: Yep.

622 01:00:26.310 ⇒ 01:00:41.680 Uttam Kumaran: And be happy. Yeah. And less than have a lot of people pay market or below. Right. And, like, yeah… yeah. If the demand is high, we’ll keep raising prices. Like, I would rather just be close to Ogilvy, or close to, like.

623 01:00:41.790 ⇒ 01:00:49.800 Uttam Kumaran: a really niche, like, creative agency than a Deloitte, you know?

624 01:00:50.040 ⇒ 01:00:52.319 Holly Condos: No, I agree completely, and I think that…

625 01:00:53.420 ⇒ 01:01:00.780 Holly Condos: the times are sort of ripe for that anyway. The overhead to maintain Deloitte Is…

626 01:01:00.780 ⇒ 01:01:01.830 Uttam Kumaran: insane.

627 01:01:01.830 ⇒ 01:01:02.740 Holly Condos: Crazy.

628 01:01:03.290 ⇒ 01:01:05.730 Holly Condos: But I don’t even know how they roll that back.

629 01:01:06.390 ⇒ 01:01:10.500 Uttam Kumaran: they even roll any of this… I don’t… I don’t know how they…

630 01:01:10.920 ⇒ 01:01:15.780 Uttam Kumaran: you can’t introduce, like, AI

631 01:01:16.190 ⇒ 01:01:20.799 Uttam Kumaran: It will, like, it’s like white blood cells in the business will attack it, like…

632 01:01:20.800 ⇒ 01:01:25.220 Holly Condos: Yeah. It can’t… it won’t work in those places, so what you’re seeing is that.

633 01:01:25.540 ⇒ 01:01:33.760 Uttam Kumaran: I don’t know, it’s really… I just have… I feel really bad for these folks, because it is eating themselves, it’s, like, gonna eat them from the inside out.

634 01:01:33.760 ⇒ 01:01:34.420 Holly Condos: Right.

635 01:01:34.650 ⇒ 01:01:36.780 Uttam Kumaran: You know, and I don’t know, I think they will…

636 01:01:37.040 ⇒ 01:01:47.130 Uttam Kumaran: one thing that a lot of folks, like, when I talk to Clarence and some of these people that are at the EY levels, partner levels, they’re like, hey, these people are gonna go find companies like you to buy.

637 01:01:47.390 ⇒ 01:01:52.280 Uttam Kumaran: Exactly. And they’re gonna buy you not as, like, come in and…

638 01:01:52.690 ⇒ 01:01:57.090 Uttam Kumaran: Supplement our book of business, but come in and rip everything out.

639 01:01:57.230 ⇒ 01:02:08.560 Uttam Kumaran: you know, like, come in and turn this in… like, take what you’re doing at Brainforge, and just, like, scale that up into this org. And he was like, he’s like, that’s probably the thesis, you know?

640 01:02:08.770 ⇒ 01:02:10.529 Holly Condos: Yeah, I think that’s right.

641 01:02:10.690 ⇒ 01:02:16.349 Holly Condos: My older son Is… well, he’s not that old, but

642 01:02:16.540 ⇒ 01:02:25.109 Holly Condos: At 29, he created, like, this legal automation software, and his company was called Woodpecker.

643 01:02:25.460 ⇒ 01:02:26.070 Uttam Kumaran: Okay.

644 01:02:26.070 ⇒ 01:02:29.139 Holly Condos: And basically, you know, it was the early days of.

645 01:02:29.140 ⇒ 01:02:31.220 Uttam Kumaran: What was that, what was the name origin?

646 01:02:34.140 ⇒ 01:02:41.690 Holly Condos: he… he’s really into nature, and I don’t know ex… I don’t remember exactly how he landed on Woodpecker, but…

647 01:02:41.960 ⇒ 01:02:43.619 Holly Condos: You know, we thought it was unique.

648 01:02:43.830 ⇒ 01:02:58.039 Holly Condos: But anyway, it was a very, you know, almost archaic now. Like, if you looked at it today, you’d be like, wow, this is just so simple. But it was great for some mid-level law firms, right? Because

649 01:02:58.230 ⇒ 01:03:14.859 Holly Condos: And… and I related to this, because as a paralegal, you’re… you were literally, like, creating a new motion every time, forever, right? Or a new complaint. Like, yeah, you have a template, but you’re still, like, word processing a document.

650 01:03:15.020 ⇒ 01:03:16.799 Uttam Kumaran: So this… this…

651 01:03:16.800 ⇒ 01:03:22.590 Holly Condos: I won’t go too far into it, but this was basically like, look, download the app.

652 01:03:22.780 ⇒ 01:03:24.680 Holly Condos: Right? It was on the App Store.

653 01:03:25.200 ⇒ 01:03:26.550 Holly Condos: Populate…

654 01:03:26.720 ⇒ 01:03:44.540 Holly Condos: the data that you want in your form, you can save that data, so if you have ABC client, right? So now you’ve got the… who’s… who the signatory is, the address, the type of corporation they are, you know, just some details that you would typically flow into an agreement.

655 01:03:44.670 ⇒ 01:03:52.559 Holly Condos: So you can save that, but you can tailor for whatever you were working on. Well, he got acquired…

656 01:03:52.720 ⇒ 01:03:54.670 Holly Condos: And they got acquired.

657 01:03:54.840 ⇒ 01:03:56.460 Uttam Kumaran: Oh, great. Right?

658 01:03:56.460 ⇒ 01:03:58.519 Holly Condos: So, to your point.

659 01:03:58.670 ⇒ 01:04:08.790 Holly Condos: And what you described is what happened for him, right? They rolled in, they took him and a couple of his engineers, I think they took his marketing person, too.

660 01:04:09.120 ⇒ 01:04:27.159 Holly Condos: And then, a PE firm came along and bought the acquirer, right? Yeah. So… so at 30, my son was like, okay, this is cool, this is fun. I mean, he’s an entrepreneur at the end of the day, right? And he loves just creating new.

661 01:04:27.640 ⇒ 01:04:27.980 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.

662 01:04:27.980 ⇒ 01:04:28.820 Holly Condos: but…

663 01:04:29.370 ⇒ 01:04:40.040 Holly Condos: I think… I think positioning Brainforge in that way is smart, because the big guns are gonna either lay people off, right, they’re gonna.

664 01:04:40.040 ⇒ 01:04:41.870 Uttam Kumaran: No, no, they are. They’re doing that, yeah.

665 01:04:41.870 ⇒ 01:04:42.520 Holly Condos: Stew.

666 01:04:42.860 ⇒ 01:04:46.180 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah. I mean, that’s why I’m getting messages back from these folks.

667 01:04:46.180 ⇒ 01:04:51.470 Holly Condos: Exactly. I mean, the guy that you showed me, yeah, he wouldn’t have responded if he was happy.

668 01:04:52.090 ⇒ 01:05:00.069 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, and I don’t mind, yeah, I don’t mind, don’t respond, I don’t want… I don’t really want the happy people. Right. You know, yeah, I agree, I agree.

669 01:05:00.070 ⇒ 01:05:05.539 Holly Condos: So, I think, I think that’s also a good lane. Okay, all right, well, let me go and fix.

670 01:05:05.540 ⇒ 01:05:06.130 Uttam Kumaran: Okay.

671 01:05:06.130 ⇒ 01:05:10.290 Holly Condos: Lilo and ABC, so we can get those out, okay? Okay.

672 01:05:10.510 ⇒ 01:05:26.910 Holly Condos: And we can talk about the bigger… I think let’s revisit the bigger agreement and contract workflow thing later. I have a couple ideas I’ll try to put together. I do have a couple slides that I’ve done in the past.

673 01:05:27.040 ⇒ 01:05:33.359 Holly Condos: I’ll just bring those back up, do a little AI on them, and, you know, we can talk about that.

674 01:05:33.750 ⇒ 01:05:38.769 Uttam Kumaran: Okay, that’s fine. Yeah, maybe let’s book a… I think we can book a call sometime in the next 2 weeks.

675 01:05:38.770 ⇒ 01:05:39.150 Holly Condos: Okay.

676 01:05:39.150 ⇒ 01:05:49.070 Uttam Kumaran: And we’re bringing on some more, like, operational project management support. Great. Like, coordination support, so we’ll have more support sometime in the next few weeks.

677 01:05:49.070 ⇒ 01:05:52.490 Holly Condos: That sounds good. All right, well, great talking with you.

678 01:05:52.490 ⇒ 01:05:53.590 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, of course, it always.

679 01:05:53.590 ⇒ 01:05:54.550 Holly Condos: waste of time?

680 01:05:54.550 ⇒ 01:05:55.320 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah.

681 01:05:55.700 ⇒ 01:06:00.009 Holly Condos: Thank you. And, I’ll get back on Slack, and then…

682 01:06:00.010 ⇒ 01:06:15.090 Uttam Kumaran: Yeah, the Lilo thing is more… more urgent than the ABC thing. Okay. If the ABC thing gets into a good spot, I’m… I’m just gonna send an update today on, like, hey, thanks for the great meeting, here’s what we summarized. So the Lilo thing is… is sort of…

683 01:06:15.440 ⇒ 01:06:17.610 Uttam Kumaran: That’s the… that’s waiting right now.

684 01:06:17.610 ⇒ 01:06:21.110 Holly Condos: I’ll wrap both of them, you know, in the next hour or so.

685 01:06:21.110 ⇒ 01:06:21.929 Uttam Kumaran: Okay, okay, perfect.

686 01:06:21.930 ⇒ 01:06:22.590 Holly Condos: Okay.

687 01:06:22.760 ⇒ 01:06:23.290 Uttam Kumaran: Okay.

688 01:06:23.290 ⇒ 01:06:23.989 Holly Condos: Alright, take care.

689 01:06:23.990 ⇒ 01:06:24.360 Uttam Kumaran: Thank you.

690 01:06:24.360 ⇒ 01:06:24.770 Holly Condos: See ya.

691 01:06:24.770 ⇒ 01:06:25.320 Uttam Kumaran: Bye.

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