Meeting Title: 15 min with Zac (Uttam Kumaran) Date: Nov 20 Meeting participants: Zac Fromson
Transcript:
Me: Hey. Guys.
Them: Doing. Well, thanks for making a little bit of time on a busy day.
Me: Yeah. Of course, I wasn’t using just our director running to clients. So it can be just like on and off, on and off phone calls.
Them: I hear you. Yeah, we try to stack all our calls on, like, Tuesdays or Wednesday, so it’s just. Yeah, it’s Ron. Appreciate you.
Me: Yeah.
Them: Sliding me hectic. Day. Cool. Yeah. Send over a bunch of questions last night. I think in general, we’re feeling good. Definitely want to move forward. I think some of the questions. Again, not on the cost and value. I think you just want to make sure we’re super blinded, like what we’re getting, because I think there’s been instances and even the past to have agency where it’s. Like, we were like, yeah, we’re good to go. And the guy assumed some stuff, and that wasn’t in Scope. And then it’s like, well, that’s like a great.
Me: Here’s another way we could do it. Like, the biggest math on my side is, and this. Is, like, oftentimes we’ve gotten on the path that we just do, like, weeks and weeks of discovery, and then DB don’t go anywhere. So similarly, though, I hear from your side, where it’s like, hey, we just want to take a piece of paper. So if you’d rather say, like, hey, just do a week of paid discovery and get me even. More of. A sense of what we’re going to deliver. All the features we can do that. And that way it’s like hedging a little bit. I want to. Make sure you guys are comfortable. And. This is just like what you mentioned. Just happened in our industry a lot. So I’m not like, I just know that. So I’m not like. I get it.
Them: Yeah. And I’m just trying to get. I think the end goal, too, is, like, there’s two things. Like, one, we just want to find one good partner. And we have a lot of other ideas. They’re not as well developed as we have now. Like, we’re going to have more. Like we want to continue. I think your idea, like being on a retainer, sounds great. And I just want to make sure that we can get enough fast enough, versus being like, all right, should I hire a developer to come in full time at LILO social to work 40 or 50 weeks to develop? Or, like, can we just get enough done with your guys structure, expertise and knowledge? And, like, you know, like, even just for context here, Like, you know, Bobby was just been, like, rocking and replit, like, a bit more. And, like, again, this is like, how big? But, like, we like, even the foreplay API, like, the more we just mess around, we’re like, we probably, like, we ran up way too many credits on it already, and it’s like, all right. Probably doesn’t work, and, like, I don’t know if it’s needed, but, like, basically. Long way to get to my point, but just, like, you know, Bobby’s just like, hey, like, you know, like, is this stuff going to take that long? When I, like, just, you know, already rock this out and replay it. Like, is this perfect to where we want it to be? No, but, like, you know, in two hours, last night. Like Bobby already built this. And, like I can come into foreplay. Find an ad. Just find a random ad. All right, let’s copy it. Command B at N, write a prompt for whatever the brand is going to be. I want to say. How I’m doing this. Generate some copy. This doesn’t tap into a knowledge base. Like, I can’t delete these, but it’s like, you know.
Me: So I hear you. So.
Them: So. So I guess that’s the biggest thing. And, like, the only reason I was like, hey, should we tap on another developer? Because it’s like, I don’t know what fuck fest you guys are going to take hold of. And if I were you, I would feel just as concerned that, like, you have no idea what you’re going to get into. And like how up.
Me: I’m not afraid. But what I am afraid of is I can’t over promise and I’m going to deliver. And so I can’t give an estimate that we can’t have the reasonably confident and we can’t deliver on.
Them: Yes.
Me: We’ll try to. Move as fast as we can. 100%, all of our team. This is how we build. But the difference is, like, this needs to end up in your application.
Them: This is. This is. This is half baked. And I don’t think this is done either. And I understand you want to know it based.
Me: Things like that. Right. In. It has to be like, so that’s the piece, actually, which is one. Like that is actually quite a bit of work. Second piece is also we want to enable, like we know that you and Bobby are able to do these types of things. And we want to build a platform in a way where you guys can actually go into the platform. And ship this directly. Right? So that is even. I would say, like, beyond typical. Scope for a company like ours. I’m like, I can want you guys to also build stuff and. Take the time that you have to also do that. But we’re going to move as fast as possible. But what I’m saying is that less than a month. Is tough. If it is truly like do or die. Get it in a faster then I can go make that happen. But it’s four weeks, like, into Christmas, and we still don’t have a good sense of coding. This is hard for me to say.
Them: I. I hear you.
Me: You know?
Them: Heard and understood. You know, to me, I’m actually. Bobby. Dang more anxious to get things moving than I am. And like, the other day, he was like, let’s just sign so the developer. Let’s get Brainforge going. And I’m like, well, hold on, hold on. We. That’s a mess.
Me: Yeah.
Them: Frankie’s hand this thing further. Like I was. Like, we don’t know what language anyone’s in. And like I was not. I’m not as much in favor of having the other developer not. He’s very good. Like, he came from, you know, Jacob from. From Common Thread, who was doing all their. AI was working with him there. So he’s already developed AI for, you know, ctc and, like, he’s legit. It’s not just, like, some guy from Upwork something.
Me: Y. Eah. I say. That. But it’s also like what you mentioned is like one you’re looking for. Not only like, hey, go something, but like a partner.
Them: Parker. Correct. And that’s what I’m saying about when I remember him today, he was like, all right, I get it. Maybe we don’t have to. I need to calm down. But, like, I just want to make sure.
Me: We’re not gatekeepers. Like, if you. If you need more support, and I can help you do that. And that’s why I was more like, okay. That’s fine. And we can just manage him. But I’m down to work with you guys. For us. Like, we want long term relationships and I want to help you guys. Take the nuggets of ideas you have for other AI Things and bring them to reality. Fast. Your platform.
Them: Yes.
Me: Right.
Them: Yeah. And I’m not scared of your price. Like, we’re ready to commit, you know, 10 or 15k a month to a in 2026. Like, you know, we’re ready to commit, you know, 120, 180 grand. To build a legitimate OS for us. So it’s not. I just want to make sure we can move fast enough and get enough for that in the right direction. Right where it’s like I could do a full time hire.
Me: Happ. Y. To. Hedge. Yeah.
Them: Or. There’s a million different ways to think about this. I just want to make sure we have the things we want to do is make sure that we have the right partner. We can get enough for a dollar spent. With, like, some sort of velocity that we’re not, like, in a bad spot. Those are, like, the three, I think, key things. It’s not. I can’t afford to do 10k a month. Like, that’s not the cash isn’t the problem. It’s more or less like speed and value. For what we’re getting and making sure, like, we’re stood up in a reliable place that we’re come through. I already feel comfortable with you guys. It’s not a concern. Like, I got to figure out how to help to get this thing over and off. And I’m sure there’s some up dead bodies in this thing that you guys.
Me: If you have, like, a good partner. And I will totally. Tell you. And we push like I push our team to move. We always are. Like trying to over deliver and move fast. Leaves all the latest AI stuff to do that. So it’s also not like, ok, see you in a month.
Them: Yeah.
Me: It’s like we’ll be talking every day. And talk about.
Them: Forward.
Me: We’re pushing. And I can tell you this because our team is doing this in my own company. We’re pushing. Stuff. Every day.
Them: Yeah.
Me: Again. It’s like if you also want to say, like, super a month, if you don’t like it, then we move. But I feel like. I feel like what you’re going to find is if you shop this around to any other places like us, They’re not only treated like a much more. Consulting company. Way. They’re also here to charge way more. And they’re going to say, there’s no way to get this done. You know?
Them: Yeah, I don’t disagree with you either. And I’m not. And again, like, I’m not.
Me: We just know what. Rules to break. To. Get this done. But also what?
Them: Yeah. Again. I’m not worried about your price. I’m not scared. I think you’re praising value is, is fair and in line. I. You don’t. I don’t feel that you need to justify your price or your rate you’re at. You know, we shopped it to the freelancer and. One other person you guys all came priced from all all three people we spoken to. It’s all basically like, You know, linear or, like, close enough where it’s like someone’s not. Like, it’s 30k versus 10. Everyone’s in the ballpark, so I, you know, pricing feel fair.
Me: You’re getting from one, you’re getting like a team.
Them: Yep. Yep.
Me: I will stop being people depending on the the use case you have. You know, on our team.
Them: Yep.
Me: And we have a ton of exper. Ts. On our bench that we’ll bring in, depending on what you need. And also if you pivot. Again. If you find someone on upwork or you find a freelancer just like one dude. That did get hit by a boss just, like, came over, you know, and so, like. And it’s also just like, I don’t. Know, there’s something about working with a company. And we work with a ton of other clients. Like. I don’t know. I think I. Think a lot about what? You know, you guys are an agency.
Them: It’s purely. It’s purely. It’s not about dollars. It’s really. For Bobby right now, it’s just purely about speed. So it’s not that, like, we don’t trust you or we don’t think you guys are the best shop. Like, Bobby’s on board. It just. He is wants. He’s just pressuring me. To find a solution that can go fast. That’s really what we’re dealing with. And it was like, if we get both people going, we could do. Double the speed. Like, they’re gonna charge basically the same thing you guys want to charge for the foreplay piece. So, like, that’s not a dollar versus dollar difference or even anything you have to with savings. He’s like, while they’re doing this, we can build this. And just multiply speed so that that was just, like, the only.
Me: Like a Gantt chart of electronic. Get it all done next month. I mean. I would just have to go a little bit deeper. Into, like, the steps.
Them: We needed. We need to get you guys the actual code. We need to get stood up in an aws.
Me: I have no to.
Them: Agreed and I don’t.
Me: Like. If sorry from. Scratch. I really feel like we could build this. But. Want to do it? You already have a lot there.
Them: Yeah. Yeah.
Me: That’s. That’s the first piece I want to make sure you guys are set up on. So I’m not, like, worried about that.
Them: Okay?
Me: And all of our stuff. Has like a 14 day out. Like, we’re not. Yeah, there’s like, no, none of our stuff. Also, we. We don’t run any managed services, so it’s all your stuff.
Them: I hear you. And honestly, like, I’m not, as I don’t dislike Bobby’s idea for the foreplay piece. I think it’s great. We have. We can use what he has here and replit it without a knowledge base we have Claude. With a bunch of sophisticated knowledge bases that we’re already doing it. It’s just clunkier and not as fast. Like, there’s things we can implement now until, like, you know, 60 days from now until we can get something flighted or whatever it’s going to be. But I agree, and, like, to be honest, I’m at the point where, like, I don’t. I just want to. Like, I can’t use the platform. Because we’re trying to get it set up in AWS server for a few weeks. It doesn’t really matter. I just want to stop paying them for, like their management, get in our own instance, get control of our code and get things moved over. So, you know, I guess just like, from an expectation, perspective, foreplay idea or the. Whatever. The ad generator. Smooth forecasting. Like we’re in pretty good shape. So, like, just like, what we could expect then, like, in the first month. Would be. I’m trying to pull open, like. Your expectation. So more or less, like, you review the code base, like, get us, you know, architecture. Like, get everything nailed down there, like, get us stood up. And running.
Me: We want a LILO own code base where you can deploy changes. And you’re able to. And then, like, we have some basic logging and, like, the stuff that’s, like, not working. We pass and work and so, like what exists today. Works. Like, use what we do, try to. And then the next step is this. Pieces are like, okay, let’s also figure out, like, what is the user off what they’re doing right now?
Them: Yes.
Me: This is really it. And so also, like, we want to pack it onto one repo. Your other developer is also trying to say.
Them: Y. Es. Y. Eah.
Me: Which is 10 repos for this product.
Them: Yeah. Yeah.
Me: You’re not like PayPal.
Them: No, I mean, it’s a cost of the transition. Like me and Bobby are okay with that. I just want to make sure we understand what we’re going to be at. So, like, well, basically so, I mean, basically, like, you’re going to understand, basically this is. You’re going to figure out what the. Is going on.
Me: Ex. Actly.
Them: Get us into a new server. User management decoupling. Is that like building some sort of, like, user management dashboard within the product so that I can, like, add and remove people from.
Me: This is two pieces. This is one. Like, you basically have to just do. Off, on, on the road. So right now they’re, they’re managing some type of authentication system. Right now you have to manage it, whether you have to adjust that or you via some other UI or in the database or the product. That’s up. To you all. I know you guys already mentioned, like, we want to have some type of user management. But.
Them: On.
Me: So we would deliver, basically. Some type of admin panel where you can say, add people and change your roles. But then the back end of that lives on your side, right? So. The front end and the back and forth. User management.
Them: Agreed. Aligned. Cool. This is, like, for any just. That’s not working, that we need to get, like.
Me: I would say boilerplate. This is right front end dogs. Backend bugs. If stuff isn’t loading or it’s taking forever to load. It’s just. Like, obvious, like, security issues. It’s like that.
Them: Understood. Like the date issue, for example, like it’s still pulling that or like some of the loading like wasn’t fire.
Me: For example, there’s, like, some of those things we should fix while we have the chance. Otherwise it becomes tech debt. The last case is like, we have like, 10. There’s a 10 repos, right?
Them: Correct? Yes.
Me: Different functions.
Them: Yes.
Me: You just, like, not the way to do this.
Them: Yeah.
Me: So. I will wait for Sam. We’ll work to see, like. Okay. Is this really, like, are these. All different parts of one. Is there something even on top of all these things?
Them: Y.
Me: But really a one repository where you push code not only for the fact that it’s cleaner.
Them: Es. Y. Es.
Me: And it’s easy to understand. But when you work with like Cursor or Claude to change things. You have to have in one place to do end to end testing and new features.
Them: Y. Es. Y.
Me: So this is gonna. This. If we don’t do that, it will slow down everything in the future, any future development.
Them: Ep. Cool. And what do you mean here by like her driven feature development by non engineers?
Me: Yeah. So this is like, I want basically my pictures. Like, I want Zac and Bobby to be in there. Being able to say, hey, I want to create this new page for this new functionality.
Them: So Bobby wanted to. Bobby wanted to deploy this. He could basically.
Me: Yeah. But you wouldn’t start in wep rate, you would start in the code. Base. Itself.
Them: Correct.
Me: So you would start the code, basically, you would say, I want to ship a new feature. And it would allow you eventually facilitate your ability to go through and shift, like the bare bones of a new idea. Because one of the things that I always talk about in our company. Is that the developers hold the keys to a lot of this stuff. And so for me, I want more people in my business to be able to go from idea to design to, like, the first version of something, even if it’s a crappy. And then be able to say, okay, you guys develop it. Versus like, everything starts with a conversation. Stuff gets lost in telephone. So ideally. What we do is we make. We make like an agent and do file. We make cursor rules. It’s just easier to use AI to edit the code base, basically.
Them: Makes sense, okay.
Me: Yeah.
Them: Cool.
Me: I mean.
Them: All right.
Me: The second all around. Like we’re gonna go through all the python notebooks. I’m throwing all the sort of forecasting logic, so no problem there. We have to figure.
Them: Y. Es.
Me: Out adjusting data. And then display. Ing on the front end.
Them: Yep. So that’s basically January Ish is forecasting. February is getting into the foreplay.
Me: That’s. If there’s parts. Of december. Where one person on my team is working on. The, like, migrating things. We’re getting to one place. And there’s parts that we can kick off. We will do that. It’s not like the way. So I will fire every opportunity to parallelize.
Them: Okay? Y. Ep.
Me: And. Like, get stuff moving, you know?
Them: Cool. And then I know we’re working on, like, a retainer model, and that’s kind of what we work towards there. Like, how are you pacing what you can and can’t done in a month? Are you behind the scenes being like, all right, they have 20 hours or 40 hours a month, basically, and like, we kind of have, like, a hidden clock, if you would. And to some extent, I’m like, how much we can get done.
Me: So as. I mentioned. My date. You know, we can do hourly or we do this. This allows me to sort of go a little bit up and down, but, yes, I roughly give a certain amount of hours.
Them: Okay?
Me: Totally dedicate. And so you can take a look at the.
Them: Cool.
Me: Pace. This is a better deal. For sure. Than what is allowed us to do is, of course, like we have some ability to say, like this is forecasting coming in.
Them: Yeah, and we’ll be more prioritized. Trust me, we do. Recurring revenue. How many agencies? I speak your language. You’re not working for someone else. Yeah.
Me: Here.
Them: I’m cool. I’m. No, I’m cool with it. Just trying to figure out how we back it out and, like, how you guys are thinking about, like, what we.
Me: That’s how we have a couple of different types of roles. Like me, sort of at the highest level, we have architecting of engineers. Each of them. We have, like, internal billable rates. I backed that into, like, a basket of hours. In no case do we, like, cut hours, and we’re, like, we’re out of hours, so that’s just, like, not how we do things.
Them: We totally hear.
Me: Hey. We’re running hot. Like, what do you think? Yeah.
Them: And then I know, like post, post launch, you’re talking about like retaining and iterate like 5k hours a week.
Me: Yeah. You don’t have any. We’re not, like, putting anything new, then. It’s sort of like. If they’re bugs. Or sort of managing random things. At that point, if you’re like, Hiring someone, you should hand it off to them. Or want to transfer to a freelancer. We would just help that transition.
Them: I don’t think that’s. That’s not the goal. I mean, so I guess, like, if we wanted to, like, continue to build. I’m like, here’s what’s next. Here’s what’s next. Here’s next.
Me: There’s no risk. We could sign a longer agreement. If you’d like to, I’m happy to, but. Yeah, we would then move to that. Ideally, what I want to get at this short agreement is that you see how we’re working at. We can understand pace and the delivery, and then I do this with a lot of workflow for the next one. We have a little bit more understanding.
Them: Yeah.
Me: From the range or decreased budget. Like, what are the scop.
Them: Y.
Me: Es.
Them: Es.
Me: And then go from there. We can adjust in between, too. If it’s like, oh, we’re loving this, like, let’s keep putting more into it, but.
Them: Yes. I feel like if I was to say, hey, we had 10k on mom to continue to rock with you, we could basically just, like, chomp off a project every single month with you guys, and you guys do some bug fixes or some feature.
Me: We’re not going. It doesn’t really change how often we talk about it. We’re in slack. Some of the design agencies sometimes, like, oh, we don’t get access to us. We don’t do stuff like that. We just have some minimums we want work of stuff. Less than 5k a month. And it’s kind of going up from there these days because we’re starting to get a project.
Them: Yeah. As I noted, me and Bobby have More dollars than 5k a month to allocate to build. I think, like, the best thing we can do in our world.
Me: You. Guys see other places, and you let me know, and then we’ll.
Them: Okay?
Me: Go. We want to be able to support the next ideas and level up.
Them: We’ll go from there.
Me: The existing ideas. Again. What you guys, I want to mention is that you’re building your own tools. There is going to be maintenance. There is. Going to be issues. That come up.
Them: Agreed. Yeah. I mean, Facebook app changes and. Yeah, I get it. Like, things are going to break.
Me: You. Software, that’s part of the prize. Similarly, when you build it yourself, that’s the risk. But it’s also like, if you don’t build it in a city where you can mitigate a lot of that.
Them: Kiria. Heard. Okay? Cool. Let me just chat with Bobby, and if we want to get started, do I have, like, an MSA nw or how do you guys typically get signed off?
Me: Y. Es. How can you? Stop with all the nurse running and you can take a look at that. I’ll just have them send it over right now.
Them: Yeah. Fired. Over. I can get out on the phone with Bobby night and try to get him to put it down.
Me: Yeah. We could start next week, but it’s kind of a short week. But a couple of clients have signed this past two weeks. We ended up taking the December 1st.
Them: Okay?
Me: We could start next week. If you want. Ed and some of the folks I. Could put on would be. Would work. Like we have from non us folks. I can have Debbie Down. They’re not going to be doing much, but they’re going to work on something currently anyways during Thanksgiving, so we can work through that.
Them: Yeah, I mean, I think our goal is to get this thing, rip the out of them their hand and get it just to like our own server and just like be download them.
Me: Okay?
Them: And, like, as long as you’re fine to clean some of this stuff up, like, they might not very last. Little bonk everything around. I just want to be done with them and get into a good spot where we can just, like. We can just push forward.
Me: Okay? Okay? All right. So let me send this contract over to you. Let me know what you think, and then. Yeah, if we can get a sign tomorrow, then I can get everyone organized for Monday.
Them: Easy enough.
Me: All right. Thanks, dude.
Them: Thanks. Talk to you soon. Peace.
Me: By. E.